Rearcher? posted at Eupedia La Brana-1 had Y DNA C-V20

[Fire Haired]

I have read from Davidski at Eurogenes and Argang at this forum, that La Brana-1 a ~7,000 year old hunter gatherer from northern Spain is said to have had Y DNA C-V20 by a member at Eupedia. A paper on La Brana-1's genome was suppose to come out over 2 weeks ago. One blogger at Eurogenes said CLF said the paper will be out in 10 days and another said within a week.

Laz 2013(click here (http://dienekes.blogspot.hu/2013/12/europeans-neolithic-farmers-mesolithic.html)) which came out last December sampled 7 genomes from Mesolithic Europeans and one from a Neolithic(farmer) European. There had already been plenty of ancient DNA taken from Europe. It is incredible what has already been learned about the genetic history of humanity, related breeds, and other species through ancient DNA.

Here is what Davidski had to say about whether this is false information.

A new user with the initials CLF, a Spanish flag, and apparently an e-mail address that looks like it's from the lab where the La Brana genomes were tested, basically posted the info at the Eupedia forum. I'm sceptical that it's really Carles Lalueza-Fox, but V20 isn't totally improbable, so I guess we'll see.

By the way, here's the lab website...

http://www.ibe.upf-csic.es/research/research-labs/lalueza-fox.html



Here is what Argang from this forum said about it

Since the supposedly blue-eyed La Brana from mesolithic Iberia is somewhat related to the topic... Someone "in the known" says here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29344-Guess-the-Y-haplogroup%28s%29-of-Mesolithic-Iberians-%28Bra%C3%B1a-1-amp-2%29?p=424588#post424588) that he had haplogroup C-V20 and not I, R1 or other more common haplos. The EUpedia mods say he's genuine. Might still be bullshitting but if he is, we should see within a month or so when the study is published.

Carles Lalueza-Fox is the same researcher who said La Brana-1 had the same mutation blue eyed north Europeans have(click here (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2013/12/brana-1-had-blue-eyes.html)). Based on what Davidski and Argan say I think it is really Carles Lalueza-Fox. The thread on Eupedia in which CLF said La Brana-1 had Y DNA C-V20 was about guessing what Y DNA haplogroup La Brana-1 had. Carles is probably excited to spread news about La Brana-1. My IP address was banned from Eupedia by Maciamo, so I can't view the thread. Can someone please get go to that thread(there is a link to it below) and post what CLF posted.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29344-Guess-the-Y-haplogroup%28s%29-of-Mesolithic-Iberians-%28Bra%C3%B1a-1-amp-2%29?p=424577&viewfull=1#post424577

It was a study in 2012(click here) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/) which discovered C-V20 in Europe.

Here is a quote from that study about C-V20

Through this analysis we identified a chromosome from southern Europe as a new deep branch within haplogroup C (C-V20 or C7, Figure S1 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/#pone.0049170.s001)). Previously, only a few examples of C chromosomes (only defined by the marker RPS4Y711) had been found in southern Europe [32] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/#pone.0049170-Semino2), [33] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3492319/#pone.0049170-Battaglia1). To improve our knowledge regarding the distribution of haplogroup C in Europe, we surveyed 1965 European subjects for the mutation RPS4Y711 and identified one additional haplogroup C chromosome from southern Europe, which has also been classified as C7 (data not shown). Further studies are needed to establish whether C7 chromosomes are the relics of an ancient European gene pool or the signal of a recent geographical spread from Asia.

I think it is significant that they discovered C-V20 in southern Europe(Iberia?) and when they looked for another C sample in Europe from 1965 samples only one was found in southern Europe(Iberia?) and it was also C-V20 since La Brana-1 was from northern Spain. If La Brana-1 had C-V20 that is prove it existed in Mesolithic European hunter gatherers. So very likely descends from some of the earliest humans to arrive in Europe because of the evidence for their ancestry being from people who came to Europe over 30,000 years ago. I really doubt La Brana-1's C-V20 was from a farmer. He had some farmer admixture but was mainly hunter gatherer and his mtDNA haplogroup U5b2c1 is also hunter gatherer descended.

I have read from multiple people who say that Y DNA C-V20 likely descends from pre Neolithic Europeans. I think most people thought that of Y DNA I and now there is prove in ancient Y DNA it existed in Mesolithic Europe. I have also read Y DNA F-96 descends from pre Neolithic Europeans but there is no prove yet in ancient Y DNA. Maciamo at Eupedia made a thread about the chronology of Cro magnon Y DNA, he thinks C(later became C-V20) was the first in Europe, next came F(later became F-96), and then next IJ(later became I) click here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eupedia.com%2Fforum%2Fthreads %2F29080-Chronology-of-Cro-Magnon-Y-DNA&ei=YSnaUuy0KcXMsQS_34CQAw&usg=AFQjCNGz1OspmPcJksgge1PR8vCmPywrxg&sig2=JS0P3e8HuVMAYCczCTPEjw&bvm=bv.59568121,d.aWM).

Y DNA C is the brotherclade to F which is the most popular haplogroup in non Africans. C is also almost completely exclusive to eastern non Africans. Wikipedia mentions some possible C*'s in south Asia and Lebanese, but that's it. C-V20 then is the only C branch that only exists in west Eurasians. It is strange that it probably existed in pre Neolithic European hunter gatherers who we know were about 100% west Eurasian. It is definitely possible non west Eurasian people had lived in pre Neolithic Europe at some point and maybe C-V20 descends from them. Maybe C-V20 took a western migration route to Europe around 40,000-70,000ybp while the rest of C went east. I haven't heard of any age estimates for C-V20 if it has no relatives passed being apart of haplogroup C, I think it probably came over 40,000 years ago with some of the earliest human migrations into Europe. I remember reading from Maciamo that it's closest relative is in Japan. He made his own hypothesis about it's migration history.

Y DNA C-V20 may be connected with the mysterious east Eurasian Mesolithic European hunter gatherers in K=2-K=20 in Laz 2013 got. Which could mean there was an east Eurasian population in pre Neolithic Europe possibly were the first humans in Europe.

Y DNA I2a1b* found in Mesolithic Luxemburg and Sweden and now possibly C-V20 found in Mesolithic Spain may mean Mesolithic west, central, and north Europeans Y DNA did not survive well since those haplogroups are so rare there today. But Y DNA I2a2, I2a1b3 L61.1, I2a1a CT595, I2a1(-I2a1a, -I2a1b), I2(-I2a), I1 combined make a pretty decent amount of west, central, and North Europeans Y DNA and their lineages have possibly been there since the Mesolithic. I think the near eastern farmers replaced most hunter gatherers blood from west, central, and northern Europe. I also think that migrations from Indo Europeans with east European hunter gatherer ancestry made a comeback of hunter gatherer blood in west, central, and northern Europe during the metal ages. So these Mesolithic west, central, and northern Europeans are not even close to being the main ancestors of modern ones in my opinion.

The amount of mtDNA from Mesolithic west, central, and north Europeans may be higher though than Y DNA. My mtDNA haplogroup U5b2a2 has been found in Mesolithic and Neolithic Germany, my maternal lineage goes back to Germans from Prussia, and I have read it is mainly in central Europe so probably descended from Mesolithic central Europeans. I have read that mtDNA U5b2c is mainly in western Europe and there are two samples of U5b2c1 from Mesolithic Spain. Those are only two example I know of with evidence Mesolithic Europeans from certain regions have surviving maternal lineages today. I want to learn as much as I can about the distribution of likely pre Neolithic European mtDNA haplogroups to get an opinion about how much has survived in certain regions since the Mesolithic.

The paper on La Brana-1's genome should be out soon. According to some people at Eurogenes they say that CLF said it should be out within a week and one said in 10 days. I bet they are using data from Laz 2013 so that's why it has been almost a month since they originally said it would come out. A lot will probably be learned through this paper.

[Artek]

Not a huge surprise if it's true, some people still possess C-V20. I would also bet some other haplogroups, like an R1a-M17 that is found in some isolated pockets in Cantabria.

[Fire Haired]

Not a huge surprise if it's true, some people still possess C-V20. I would also bet some other haplogroups, like an R1a-M17 that is found in some isolated pockets in Cantabria.

I thought C-V20 was probably descended from pre Neolithic Europeans and many other people did. So La Brana-1 having C-V20 is not a huge surprise but I still think I2a1a1 M26 was more popular in Mesolithic Iberia.

[Artek]

I thought C-V20 was probably descended from pre Neolithic Europeans and many other people did. So La Brana-1 having C-V20 is not a huge surprise but I still think I2a1a1 M26 was more popular in Mesolithic Iberia.
I2a2a1 would be my first bet, honestly

[Fire Haired]

I2a2a1 would be my first bet, honestly

What?!! there is barely any I2a2 in Spain and western Europe today. I don't know that much about I2a2a1 but I think it may have spread in the metal ages with Celts and Germans.

[Artek]

What?!! there is barely any I2a2 in Spain and western Europe today. I don't know that much about I2a2a1 but I think it may have spread in the metal ages with Celts and Germans.
I2a-M26, I meant. I mistyped a one number.

[Fire Haired]

I wonder if La Brana-1 had any ANE and I wonder how much EEF he had. La Brana-1 and Loschbour both had the "blue eye" mutation. I am assuming CLF meant G,G alleles in rs12913832 when he said La Brana-1 had the blue eye mutation. What hair color did he have was it most likely black or at least dark like Loschbour, did he have any of the so called light skin genes. La Brana-1 will help learn a lot. I don't think a lot of blood from Mesolithic west Europeans survived, and that most WHG in modern west Europeans is from Indo Europeans who got their WHG from eastern Europe. The genetic history of modern Europeans is so complicated it gets annoying trying to figure it out.

[Artek]

I wonder if La Brana-1 had any ANE and I wonder how much EEF he had.
ANE is considered to have arrived relatively late into the genepool...I think some minor EEF admix for La Brana-1 may be possible


I don't think a lot of blood from Mesolithic west Europeans survived, and that most WHG in modern west Europeans is from Indo Europeans who got their WHG from eastern Europe.
That's true, it's more likely to be from Indo-Europeans which were more numerous and recent than from some isolated pockets of hunter-gatherer like people.

[Fire Haired]

ANE is considered to have arrived relatively late into the genepool...I think some minor EEF admix for La Brana-1 may be possible.

Motola12 an 8,000 year old hunter gatherer from Sweden had ANE ancestry. I think they put him in a ANE and WHG admixture and came out 81% WHG and 19% ANE. I don't know what it is called but I remember reading he had 19% ANE and 81% WHG a couple times in the study. It existed in areas of Mesolithic Europe, I agree it seems in most areas it spread in the metal ages out of eastern Europe maybe along with a lot of WHG. La Brana-1 had some farmer ancestry it shows in admixtures he has been put into.



That's true, it's more likely to be from Indo-Europeans which were more numerous and recent than from some isolated pockets of hunter-gatherer like people.

The farmers seemed to have simple replaced the hunter gatherers in west Europe. But today Germans and Celts(-Iberia) are very very different from Stuttgart, Otzi, and the Funnel beaker farmers. Saying that is because of Indo European migrations makes the most sense. There is evidence in copper and bronze age mtDNA from central Europe a new people with some east European maternal lineages related to Indo Iranians had arrived(U5a, U4, U2e, and T1).

[Prisoner Of Ice]

What on earth did you get banned for? Guess maciamo showing his true colors, can't stand to see anyone doubt his retardo propaganda.

[Artek]

Guess maciamo showing his true colors, can't stand to see anyone doubt his retardo propaganda.
Maciamo has his own views (like paleolithic H1 and H3, R1a proto-Greeks etc.) and you can't contradict that, otherwise you will get your reward.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Maciamo has his own views (like paleolithic H1 and H3, R1a proto-Greeks etc.) and you can't contradict that, otherwise you will get your reward.

Yeah, that is what I figured. Unfortunately many of his views fly in the face of common sense.

[Fire Haired]

What on earth did you get banned for? Guess maciamo showing his true colors, can't stand to see anyone doubt his retardo propaganda.

I was an annoying, prideful, and ignorant at times. He was understandable angry at me but he had no good reason to ban me. I have been banned by three European run blogs or fourms, they have the same spirit A&E had when they fired Phil Robertson. The far left doesn't tolerate people who think differently. When I was banned from Anthrogencia I asked Maciamo to send a message to them, because the ban was ridiculous. Next thing I know he is banning me. I was friendly to him and apologized multiple times for some of the stupid things I posted. I forgive him but wont say what he did was right. Some people don't have a strong moral consciousness and don't care when others are miss treated.

[Fire Haired]

Maciamo has his own views (like paleolithic H1 and H3, R1a proto-Greeks etc.) and you can't contradict that, otherwise you will get your reward.

I don't think Maciamo is that crazy, sometimes I really dis agree with him and he seems crazy. He obviously knows a ton about history and genetics and works very hard to be accurate and figure things out. I do get very annoyed about his obsession with Indo Europeans being the source of everything. Now he is claiming Indo Europeans are the source of those three light skin genes.

[Artek]

I don't think Maciamo is that crazy, sometimes he is but usually not.
I exaggerated intentionally, he is still more stable than other enthusiasts(I won't call the names)

[Fire Haired]

I exaggerated intentionally, he is still more stable than other enthusiasts(I won't call the names)

I think I probably used to seem crazy. It takes a lot of work to learn how to gather information accurately. Of course you can never stop becoming better at it.

[Lábaru]

Someone knows how many Mesolithic maternal haplogroups survive today in Iberia ?

[Fire Haired]

Someone knows how many Mesolithic maternal haplogroups survive today in Iberia ?

How ever much U5, U4, and U2e there is in Iberia that is around how much Mesolithic European mtDNA there is. I don't know much about U5 subclades in Iberia. I have heard from multiple people most of the U5 in Basque is under a U5b1 subclade that is exclusive to west Europe and without doubt is a Upper Palaeolithic west European haplogroup. I bet most U5, U4, and U2e in Iberia has been there since the Mesolithic instead of coming from later migrations from the east. mtDNA V and other RO types are definitely possible Mesolithic lineages in Iberia. There is debated H samples from Palaeolithic and Mesolithic Iberia. I think modern Iberians mainly descend from Neolithic ones but things have probably changed a little since the Neolithic we need genomes from Neolithic Iberia to know for sure.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Someone knows how many Mesolithic maternal haplogroups survive today in Iberia ?

If H is mesolithic, as I think is likely, then a whole lot. The common opinion is only U are mesolithic but it seems pretty clear H was spread with the celts.

[Fire Haired]

If H is mesolithic, as I think is likely, then a whole lot. The common opinion is only U are mesolithic but it seems pretty clear H was spread with the celts.

Who ever said mtDNA H was spread with Celts there is no evidence of that. Mesolithic mtDNA proves most H in Europe today came in the Neolithic. It is possible some was there before though.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I don't think Maciamo is that crazy, sometimes I really dis agree with him and he seems crazy. He obviously knows a ton about history and genetics and works very hard to be accurate and figure things out. I do get very annoyed about his obsession with Indo Europeans being the source of everything. Now he is claiming Indo Europeans are the source of those three light skin genes.

It's not to do with crazy or not. If you are a scientist you deal with facts and you tolerate disagreement. Eupedia is not science, not even close. It's somewhere between wishful thinking and bizarre propaganda.

Just look at spanish language and how all encompassing it is...language is not people and he tolerates no possibility of anything else being expressed too loudly.

The fact he bans people just for disagreeing, just shows he has an agenda he's pushing and therefore invalidates EVERYTHING he says (which is almost all obviously BS anyway).

And you are right it seems the "left" is very censuring like that. I think he is probably tied to the european union somehow and supposed to push some kind of political agenda.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Who ever said mtDNA H was spread with Celts there is no evidence of that. Mesolithic mtDNA proves most H in Europe today came in the Neolithic. It is possible some was there before though.

I made a post about it. There was a study suggesting celts came out of iberia. If that's the case (and it seems impossible to be otherwise) then H was spread by celtic expansion because the other ridiculous hypothesis would be invalidated.

Anyway, of course that's be theorized many times. They don't have concrete proof but all the mtdna they do in iberia, doesn't test for H. However it is all 'upstream' from H so it's likely just H....

[Lábaru]

If this map is accurate the main sources are first Navarre(they are ancients/originals Basques-vascones but not current Basque Land) and Cantabrian(probably peak in Pasiegos I guess) and secondarily Basque Country and Zamora and León(La Brana area) in the Castilian area.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U5-map.png
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pF0POSlqiE8/TJpIKfm_09I/AAAAAAAAAnI/l9eK8EXUbtM/s1600/mapaprovincias.jpg

[Empecinado]

H haplogroup was the predominant (52, 9%) of Iberian peoples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberians), who were pre-IE and were a ethnicity different from Celts.

http://zaragozalinguistica.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/prehispanic_languages.gif

[Black Wolf]

My own mtDNA haplogroup is U5b2c2 which is closely related to the U5b2c1 that the La-Brana individuals had. My own mtDNA line comes from Ireland. U5b2c and it's subclades U5b2c1 and U5b2c2 have a completely West European distribution today. It seems rather likely that U5b2c is one of the very few mtDNA haplogroups among Europeans today that has a West European Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic origin and survived to the present day.

[Fire Haired]

My own mtDNA haplogroup is U5b2c2 which is closely related to the U5b2c1 that the La-Brana individuals had. My own mtDNA line comes from Ireland. U5b2c and it's subclades U5b2c1 and U5b2c2 have a completely West European distribution today. It seems rather likely that U5b2c is one of the very few mtDNA haplogroups among Europeans today that has a West European Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic origin and survived to the present day.

Yep, and that makes you a long lost maternal relative of La Brana-1 and La Brana-2. mtDNA haplogroup U5b2a2 has been proven to have existed in Mesolithic central Europe, I have read is most popular in central Europe today, and my lineage is from central Europe so probably a native central European Mesolithic haplogroup. Maybe most U5 in central-west Europe has been there since the Mesolithic, but I doubt it.

[Fire Haired]

H haplogroup was the predominant (52, 9%) of Iberian peoples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberians), who were pre-IE and were a ethnicity different from Celts.

http://zaragozalinguistica.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/prehispanic_languages.gif

Most H in Iberia probably came with near eastern farmers in the Neolithic mainly about 7,000-8,000 years ago. There are some debated H samples from Mesolithic and Palaeolithic Iberia.

[Fire Haired]

I made a post about it. There was a study suggesting celts came out of iberia. If that's the case (and it seems impossible to be otherwise) then H was spread by celtic expansion because the other ridiculous hypothesis would be invalidated.

Anyway, of course that's be theorized many times. They don't have concrete proof but all the mtdna they do in iberia, doesn't test for H. However it is all 'upstream' from H so it's likely just H....

R1b P312 the haplogroup which dominated ancient Celts came through the east and probably didn't arrive in central Europe till just 5,000 years ago. The Celts were a bronze age Indo European people who came from the east originally and I really doubt they spread from Iberia. There isn't much evidence H spread from Iberia. Ancient mtDNA shows near eastern farmers probably brought most H to Europe. H was much more popular in Neolithic Iberia than Neolithic central Europe, and I guess some people think H percentages were risen by migrations out of Iberia no one ever has mentioned Celts though. I wish those debated H samples from Palaeolithic and Mesolithic Europe would finally be resolved. Ancestral Journeys does have RO's from Palaeolithic Iberia and its possible they were actually H.

[Fire Haired]

It's not to do with crazy or not. If you are a scientist you deal with facts and you tolerate disagreement. Eupedia is not science, not even close. It's somewhere between wishful thinking and bizarre propaganda.

Just look at spanish language and how all encompassing it is...language is not people and he tolerates no possibility of anything else being expressed too loudly.

The fact he bans people just for disagreeing, just shows he has an agenda he's pushing and therefore invalidates EVERYTHING he says (which is almost all obviously BS anyway).

And you are right it seems the "left" is very censuring like that. I think he is probably tied to the european union somehow and supposed to push some kind of political agenda.

Did Maciamo and Eupedia do something to you? I don't really like Maciamo because of how he dis respected me but that doesn't mean he is a complete idiot. What agenda are you talking about? I haven't seen biased or agenda from Maciamo it seems he is just trying to figure things out. He was "fed up" with my long rambling posts so he banned me for a I think a month then changed it to a year then after I made a new account he banned my IP address. He was just very annoyed of me and because I think differently than most people there I was banned. Your right the left censures and silences people oftenly.

[Kale]

Frankly, anything besides I would be interesting.
E, or G, would be less likely, but not surprising, and may help answer a few questions about their spread.
I don't think it would be J at all, but I wouldn't completely rule out R.
F would be real lucky considering how rare it is today.
However...C?? That's like pulling a needle out of a haystack.

[Loki]

Banning you would be stupid for any forum, Fire Haired. You make great threads, like this one - and you don't just copy/paste, but write your own content.

I hope you will spend most of your time on Apricity now.

[Black Wolf]

Banning you would be stupid for any forum, Fire Haired. You make great threads, like this one - and you don't just copy/paste, but write your own content.

I hope you will spend most of your time on Apricity now.

I agree he is actually a very intelligent fellow. :)

[Ibericus]

Someone knows how many Mesolithic maternal haplogroups survive today in Iberia ?
In north Spain there are pockets of very high levels of U5 , this is from a study of García et al. 2011 :

Cantabria, general : 17.3%
Pasiegos : 19.5%
Gipuzkoa Basque : 17.7%

There has also been found mtDNA H6 in Paleolithic Cantabria.

Also in a controversial study there was Mesolithic mtDNA H in Portugal.

So, the conclusion is, our maternal line is very high in Meso/Paleo lineages, contrary to paternal lines.

[Fire Haired]

In north Spain there are pockets of very high levels of U5 , this is from a study of García et al. 2011 :

Cantabria, general : 17.3%
Pasiegos : 19.5%
Gipuzkoa Basque : 17.7%

There has also been found mtDNA H6 in Paleolithic Cantabria.

Also in a controversial study there was Mesolithic mtDNA H in Portugal.

So, the conclusion is, our maternal line is very high in Meso/Paleo lineages, contrary to paternal lines.

How many samples came from each of those regions? Most H in Europe including in Iberia probably came in the Neolithic. I think some may not and hopefully a lot more mtDNA from Mesolithic and upper Palaeolithic Iberia will find if H really did exist there before the Mesolithic.

[Gaston]

That's a very interesting find (although it's not sure 100% since the source is a random member from Eupedia).

Haplogroup C was probably the third Eurasian haplogroup to diverge, very early on, briefly after D and E split and way before F diversified. While C is mostly restricted to non-West Eurasians today it's a minor haplogroup everywhere, mimicking in a way haplogroup D (although not always overlapping).

It may represent an old and divergent type of Eurasian ancestry (vis-à-vis modern day variation which is mostly East vs West Eurasian dichotomy), maybe part of the new Basal Eurasian thing. Haplogroups D and E may have something to do with this to.
The slight East Eurasian and African-like shift of La Braña in global PCA may actually be a more general Eurasian affinity rather than East Eurasian or African admix.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

If this map is accurate the main sources are first Navarre(they are ancients/originals Basques-vascones but not current Basque Land) and Cantabrian(probably peak in Pasiegos I guess) and secondarily Basque Country and Zamora and León(La Brana area) in the Castilian area.


Yes, the map implies that it came from iberia. I would have a very hard time believing that it did not.

In europe in general, the neolithic farmers almost wiped out the natives, then something climate related happened and they in turn were pretty much wiped out, leaving us with out current haplogroups.

If that holds true for iberia, too, then the mesolithic hunter gatherers are where H comes from.

According to that study (and it basically HAS to be due to archaeology) celts arose in iberia.

So celts had H already and they spread it all over europe when they expanded...it's the only thing that really makes any sense. Like I said they keep doing genetic tests in Iberia...but they don't ever test for H. Complete bullshit.

[Fire Haired]

Yes, the map implies that it came from iberia. I would have a very hard time believing that it did not.

In europe in general, the neolithic farmers almost wiped out the natives, then something climate related happened and they in turn were pretty much wiped out, leaving us with out current haplogroups.

If that holds true for iberia, too, then the mesolithic hunter gatherers are where H comes from.

According to that study (and it basically HAS to be due to archaeology) celts arose in iberia.

So celts had H already and they spread it all over europe when they expanded...it's the only thing that really makes any sense. Like I said they keep doing genetic tests in Iberia...but they don't ever test for H. Complete bullshit.

What implies H comes from Iberia? It is most varied in the near east and ancient mtDNA is evidence it mainly cam eto Europe in the Neolithic. What does climate have to do with Neolithic farmers dis appearing. It was migrations in the metal ages by people like Indo Europeans that's why modern Europeans are not perfect matches to the people that lived there in the Neolithic. The Celts were never in Finland yet they have about 40% mtDNA H and many of the same subclades who would ever assioate the spread of mtDNA H with a ethnic group that began in the bronze age?

[Fire Haired]

That's a very interesting find (although it's not sure 100% since the source is a random member from Eupedia).

Haplogroup C was probably the third Eurasian haplogroup to diverge, very early on, briefly after D and E split and way before F diversified. While C is mostly restricted to non-West Eurasians today it's a minor haplogroup everywhere, mimicking in a way haplogroup D (although not always overlapping).

It may represent an old and divergent type of Eurasian ancestry (vis-à-vis modern day variation which is mostly East vs West Eurasian dichotomy), maybe part of the new Basal Eurasian thing. Haplogroups D and E may have something to do with this to.
The slight East Eurasian and African-like shift of La Braña in global PCA may actually be a more general Eurasian affinity rather than East Eurasian or African admix.

E I am pretty sure is most diverse in sub Sahara Africa where it probably originated i don't see how it would be connected to basal Eurasian. Since most Eurasians have a mixture of mtDNA N and M and mixture of Y DNA C, DE, and F. I think those haplogroups migrated together probably diversified together in Asia. Maybe C-V20 is a farmer lineage and connected to basal Eurasian that would make some sense. I think C-V20 most likely descends from some of the earliest human settlement in Europe maybe over 50,000 years ago and it was by probably non west Eurasians. Since C-V20 is such an early split it must be very old in Europe. I have heard people say F-96 is an exclusively European subclade of F. I think the F* from LBK was F-96 and is connected to basal Eurasian or descended from hunter gatherers.

[Jackson]

I wonder if La Brana-1 had any ANE and I wonder how much EEF he had. La Brana-1 and Loschbour both had the "blue eye" mutation. I am assuming CLF meant G,G alleles in rs12913832 when he said La Brana-1 had the blue eye mutation. What hair color did he have was it most likely black or at least dark like Loschbour, did he have any of the so called light skin genes. La Brana-1 will help learn a lot. I don't think a lot of blood from Mesolithic west Europeans survived, and that most WHG in modern west Europeans is from Indo Europeans who got their WHG from eastern Europe. The genetic history of modern Europeans is so complicated it gets annoying trying to figure it out.

I think that is probably the case, or at least a large part of it.

[Gaston]

E I am pretty sure is most diverse in sub Sahara Africa where it probably originated i don't see how it would be connected to basal Eurasian. Since most Eurasians have a mixture of mtDNA N and M and mixture of Y DNA C, DE, and F. I think those haplogroups migrated together probably diversified together in Asia. Maybe C-V20 is a farmer lineage and connected to basal Eurasian that would make some sense. I think C-V20 most likely descends from some of the earliest human settlement in Europe maybe over 50,000 years ago and it was by probably non west Eurasians. Since C-V20 is such an early split it must be very old in Europe. I have heard people say F-96 is an exclusively European subclade of F. I think the F* from LBK was F-96 and is connected to basal Eurasian or descended from hunter gatherers.

Of course E is most diverse in Africa. But I was talking about where it arose which is most likely Eurasia based on the latest data (unless DE, C and F all arose in Africa). The autosomal side of E (and D) should be an old and extinct population of Eurasia (or Africa), that's why I mentioned the Basal Eurasian thing. C could also represent a Basal Eurasian population which has left only a very faint signal autosomally in modern populations because Eurasia today is mostly explained by the East vs West Eurasian dichotomy. That's what we see in a PCA of the World. Africans, most of them if not all, for some reason fall in the cline between Africa and West Eurasian in such PCA, which of course is well explained by West Eurasian admixure but one can expect more general Eurasian affinities if back-to-Africa migrations happened very early on. Maybe it did but it has been West-Eurasian-washed in the following and much later back-to-Africa migrations.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

What implies H comes from Iberia? It is most varied in the near east and ancient mtDNA is evidence it mainly cam eto Europe in the Neolithic. What does climate have to do with Neolithic farmers dis appearing. It was migrations in the metal ages by people like Indo Europeans that's why modern Europeans are not perfect matches to the people that lived there in the Neolithic. The Celts were never in Finland yet they have about 40% mtDNA H and many of the same subclades who would ever assioate the spread of mtDNA H with a ethnic group that began in the bronze age?

E is most diverse in africa, but it doesn't come from africa.

[Fire Haired]

E is most diverse in africa, but it doesn't come from africa.

Where does it come from then?

[Fire Haired]

Of course E is most diverse in Africa. But I was talking about where it arose which is most likely Eurasia based on the latest data (unless DE, C and F all arose in Africa). The autosomal side of E (and D) should be an old and extinct population of Eurasia (or Africa), that's why I mentioned the Basal Eurasian thing. C could also represent a Basal Eurasian population which has left only a very faint signal autosomally in modern populations because Eurasia today is mostly explained by the East vs West Eurasian dichotomy. That's what we see in a PCA of the World. Africans, most of them if not all, for some reason fall in the cline between Africa and West Eurasian in such PCA, which of course is well explained by West Eurasian admixure but one can expect more general Eurasian affinities if back-to-Africa migrations happened very early on. Maybe it did but it has been West-Eurasian-washed in the following and much later back-to-Africa migrations.

The K=2-K=20 does seem to say almost all sub Saharan Africans have significant west Eurasian ancestry I guess that could be connected to y DNA E in Africa. Why couldn't D be from Eurasia like C and F, but E from Africa? F is very ancient and has descendants in all non Africans C is its brotherclade so C-V20 may have nothing to do with east Eurasians like Y DNa IJ. C, F, and D could have existed in early east and west Eurasians.

[Gaston]

The K=2-K=20 does seem to say almost all sub Saharan Africans have significant west Eurasian ancestry I guess that could be connected to y DNA E in Africa. Why couldn't D be from Eurasia like C and F, but E from Africa? F is very ancient and has descendants in all non Africans C is its brotherclade so C-V20 may have nothing to do with east Eurasians like Y DNa IJ. C, F, and D could have existed in early east and west Eurasians.

E can absolutely be from Africa. But it can't be separated from D and even CF, because C seems to have diverged shortly after DE split from CT (which means they are connected). The only way E can be African is that D has to be African too and even C.

The discussion might be simplistic, because the Saharo-Arabian belt (where the Out-of-Africa originated and ultimately moved to/ended up in the first phase) is one single ecozone, so Africa vs Eurasia doesn't really mean anything geographically. In terms of population and autosomal dna though, knowing that the population of Africans who left for Eurasia had a very small size, it makes sense to speak in those terms to make it less confusing.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

E can absolutely be from Africa. But it can't be separated from D and even CF, because C seems to have diverged shortly after DE split from CT (which means they are connected). The only way E can be African is that D has to be African too and even C.

The discussion might be simplistic, because the Saharo-Arabian belt (where the Out-of-Africa originated and ultimately moved to/ended up in the first phase) is one single ecozone, so Africa vs Eurasia doesn't really mean anything geographically. In terms of population and autosomal dna though, knowing that the population of Africans who left for Eurasia had a very small size, it makes sense to speak in those terms to make it less confusing.

But asian C was in east asia 40k years ago, so it's not very reasonable to think it came from africa.

[Äijä]

What implies H comes from Iberia? It is most varied in the near east and ancient mtDNA is evidence it mainly cam eto Europe in the Neolithic. What does climate have to do with Neolithic farmers dis appearing. It was migrations in the metal ages by people like Indo Europeans that's why modern Europeans are not perfect matches to the people that lived there in the Neolithic. The Celts were never in Finland yet they have about 40% mtDNA H and many of the same subclades who would ever assioate the spread of mtDNA H with a ethnic group that began in the bronze age?

Danish linguistic I listened seemed to think the Celts where also present in the Baltic. Either Finnics where more southern situated or Celts where up in the north.

[Fire Haired]

E can absolutely be from Africa. But it can't be separated from D and even CF, because C seems to have diverged shortly after DE split from CT (which means they are connected). The only way E can be African is that D has to be African too and even C.

The discussion might be simplistic, because the Saharo-Arabian belt (where the Out-of-Africa originated and ultimately moved to/ended up in the first phase) is one single ecozone, so Africa vs Eurasia doesn't really mean anything geographically. In terms of population and autosomal dna though, knowing that the population of Africans who left for Eurasia had a very small size, it makes sense to speak in those terms to make it less confusing.

I don't see why just because C and DE have similar ages that they must be connected. Why couldn't DE and CF migrated out of Africa separately. I understand that Africa and Eurasia are on big land mass and they were even more connected in Arabia when these early migrations were occurring. But Non African and African is real thing autosomal DNA proves it. There was some type of split which mtDNA and Y DNA show. Maybe when DE and CF began there wasn't really a difference yet between Africans and non Africans and D became apart of the non Africans and E with non Africans.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Danish linguistic I listened seemed to think the Celts where also present in the Baltic. Either Finnics where more southern situated or Celts where up in the north.

They were everywhere from iberia to turkey.

[Fire Haired]

Danish linguistic I listened seemed to think the Celts where also present in the Baltic. Either Finnics where more southern situated or Celts where up in the north.

Maybe Germans brought some Celtic words or whatever into Finnish language. Hallstat-La Tene Celts and Germans had a lot of contact remember I told you about similar burial descriptions in the Rus Vikings and Gauls? The Celts did expand very much during the iron age from their central-west European homeland. There were Celts that migrated deep into Italy, Balkans raided Greek cities, and migrated into central Anatolia. It is deifnitley possible I guess Celts went up to the Baltic were Romans and Greeks(pretty much the only literate people in Europe at that time) couldn't keep track of them. I have no idea if there is any archeological evidence for this.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=43509&d=1390097343

[Fire Haired]

They were everywhere from iberia to turkey.

There were many different Celtic people. French especially western French are technically just as Celtic as Irish it is just I guess they forgot they were Celtic(maybe I am wrong) after becoming Romanized(French comes from Latin), after 100's or 1,000's of years a lot changes. I think Irish never had an idea what Celtic was they just knew they were Gaelic and the Scots came from Ireland. Their language is guess was somewhat preserved and Christian monks wrote down a lot of their traditional stories and religion. After people read ancient Roman and Greek writing they probably rediscovered what Celtic was.

Roman coin depicting Vercingetorix the guy who united the Gauls against Ceasar. It has a chariot in the back and I know chariots were a huge part of warfare for many Celts. It also has the word Ceasar on the back probably some type of sign of victory over Celts(probably Gauls).
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=43511&d=1390098176

[Prisoner Of Ice]

There were many different Celtic people. French especially western French are technically just as Celtic as Irish it is just I guess they forgot they were Celtic(maybe I am wrong) after becoming Romanized(French comes from Latin), after 100's or 1,000's of years a lot changes. I think Irish never had an idea what Celtic was they just knew they were Gaelic and the Scots came from Ireland. Their language is guess was somewhat preserved and Christian monks wrote down a lot of their traditional stories and religion. After people read ancient Roman and Greek writing they probably rediscovered what Celtic was.

Many french nobility spoke celtic until 1400 or so.

[Fire Haired]

Many french nobility spoke celtic until 1400 or so.

That's hard to believe.

[Kale]

Ok CLF, it's been a week...where is this result?

[Fire Haired]

Ok CLF, it's been a week...where is this result?

Dude, I already made a thread about it the paper has been out for like 5 hours. La Brana-1 had blue eyes, dark skin, dark hair, and Y DNA C1a2-V20. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?112037-La-Brana-1-had-blue-eyes-dark-skin-dark-hair-and-Y-DNA-C1a2-V20)

Reconstruction of La Brana-1. They also had a complete skull so this is probably pretty accurate. Of course the skin color is debatable and you could interpret it as dark or light.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=43910&d=1390789853

[Kale]

OMG 5 hours! That's so 6 hours ago. Anyways, cool, I'll have to find that thread.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

That's hard to believe.

History books, read them.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

In fact there's still people in france who speak breton (celtic) :picard1:

I don't think anyone speaks it as a first language any more, though.



Having declined from more than one million speakers around 1950 to about 200,000 in the first decade of the 21st century, of whom 61% are more than 60 years old, Breton is classified as "severely endangered"


That's from wikipedia. I am not sure how long it's been since it was first language but it wasn't just brittany that celtic was spoken, but all of west france pretty much.

[Anglojew]

I'm interested in the surviving C-V20 in Europe. Can you tell us more about them? What percentage of men in Spain etc?

[Anglojew]

In fact there's still people in france who speak breton (celtic) :picard1:

I don't think anyone speaks it as a first language any more, though.

That's from wikipedia. I am not sure how long it's been since it was first language but it wasn't just brittany that celtic was spoken, but all of west france pretty much.

It was reintroduced by the Welsh after the Anglo-Saxon invasions its not a surviving Gaulish Dialect.

[Anglojew]

Dude, I already made a thread about it the paper has been out for like 5 hours. La Brana-1 had blue eyes, dark skin, dark hair, and Y DNA C1a2-V20. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?112037-La-Brana-1-had-blue-eyes-dark-skin-dark-hair-and-Y-DNA-C1a2-V20)

Reconstruction of La Brana-1. They also had a complete skull so this is probably pretty accurate. Of course the skin color is debatable and you could interpret it as dark or light.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=43910&d=1390789853

What Negrid features did they have? I read a newspaper article today that he's some sort of hybrid African-European? Is this just propaganda?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2546421/Blue-eyed-caveman-7-000-year-old-DNA-reveals-European-African-traits.html

[Anglojew]

Is U5B2A found in Iberia?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It was reintroduced by the Welsh after the Anglo-Saxon invasions its not a surviving Gaulish Dialect.

It's just the only one that survives today. In potiau or however it's spelled, that was the case.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

What Negrid features did they have? I read a newspaper article today that he's some sort of hybrid African-European? Is this just propaganda?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2546421/Blue-eyed-caveman-7-000-year-old-DNA-reveals-European-African-traits.html

It doesn't have any african traits. Probably not all that dark either. It's missing some skin LIGHTENING genes, but that doesn't mean it has any of the dozens of skin darkening genes which are much stronger.

[Fire Haired]

It doesn't have any african traits. Probably not all that dark either. It's missing some skin LIGHTENING genes, but that doesn't mean it has any of the dozens of skin darkening genes which are much stronger.

People who say he had African traits have a raciest agenda. I have said this maybe 1 million times. The three so called European light skin genes are about as popular in near easterns as they are in Europeans. There are other sources of European pale skin that have not been discovered. In my opinion La Brana-1 probably had light skin.

[Artek]

The three so called European light skin genes are about as popular in near easterns as they are in Europeans.
When I saw that study first, I alread thought that something is wrong. How can Middle-Easterners have the same light skin allele, since some Caucasians and many Europeans can have(and largely have) remarkably lighter skin and it can't be explained with an exposition to the UV. Just not all allele are found and that should be obvious.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

When I saw that study first, I alread thought that something is wrong. How can Middle-Easterners have the same light skin allele, since some Caucasians and many Europeans can have(and largely have) remarkably lighter skin and it can't be explained with an exposition to the UV. Just not all allele are found and that should be obvious.

I think those only have an effect when you have some darkening genes, so those genes probably came in neolithic times. That is my assumption anyway. Without sequencing the whole genome of these guys it is hard to say.

[Artek]

I think those only have an effect when you have some darkening genes, so those genes probably came in neolithic times. That is my assumption anyway. Without sequencing the whole genome of these guys it is hard to say.
Yay, for now that's a speculation. We should wait for some progress in this matter.