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RussiaPrussia
01-25-2014, 04:08 PM
Central Europe's Convergence With The West Has Slowed Dramatically (http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2014/01/24/central-europes-convergence-with-the-west-has-slowed-dramatically/)

Via Ed Lucas, with whom I almost never agree but who is never short of interesting ideas, I stumbled upon a report about Central Europe a decade after it’s accession to the EU. While the report is honest about some of the region’s difficulties, it is nonetheless extremely upbeat about the region’s economic trajectory calling it “a growth engine for the wider EU economy” and noting that the region was forecast to grow more quickly than Western Europe for the foreseeable future. Basically, the report says that “convergence” will continue, and that a generation or two from now the region will be on a level of development roughly equal to that of Western Europe.

The report accurately notes that debt dynamics in Central Europe are more favorable than in the West, and that the region’s workforce, which is low-cost and highly educated, presents an alluring target for European businesses looking to improve their competitive position. The problem is that, ever since the onset of the financial crisis, the region’s convergence with Western Europe has slowed to a crawl.

I quickly created a chart showing the weighted average income of the new EU members (Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Croatia, Hungary, Lithuania, Latvia, Poland, Romania, and Slovakia) as a percentage of weighted average income in a “core” set of countries including Belgium, Austria, Germany, France, Netherlands, the UK, Switzerland, and Denmark. As you can tell by that roster, I deliberately avoided including the PIGS. Why? Well because Central Europe would look like it was “converging” with those countries even if it was totally stagnant. Everyone looks like a good swimmer in comparison to the guy who’s drowning. I think it’s more useful to look at developed countries that haven’t totally imploded during the crisis (though many of the “core” countries I examined are hardly going gangbusters: France, the UK, and the Netherlands are all either at or below their pre-crisis peaks in GDP).

http://b-i.forbesimg.com/markadomanis/files/2014/01/Core-Europe-New-EU.png

As you can clearly see in the chart although the new EU members experienced rapid convergence during the bubble years, ever since the bubble popped their convergence has slowed dramatically. In fact, if convergence continues at its 2008-13 pace (about 0.37% per annum) it would take the new EU members over a hundred years to match the core countries’ average level of income. Now it’s highly unlikely that things will develop in such a predictable, linear fashion and I’m not suggesting that we should all set our watches on the assumption that average incomes in Central Europe will match those in Western Europe in 2115. However, to the extent that Central Europe’s most rapid and sustained burst of convergence coincided with a credit bubble that is highly unlikely to be repeated, it seems more likely than not that the region’s convergence will be slower in the future than it was in the past.

It might make sense to think that, in an environment of austerity, the more nimble and debt-averse countries in Central Europe would dramatically out compete their Western peers. If anything, the opposite seems to be the case: tight money and tight budgets seem to systemically favor developed countries at the expense of the less mature, post-communist economies. To the extent that Europe’s future will be one of tight money and tight budgets, that suggests that Central Europe will be in for a rough ride.

arcticwolf
01-25-2014, 04:20 PM
East Europeans need to wise up fast and create their own destiny without Western Europe. They are dragging us down, it's time to leave them behind. Good post RussiaPrussia! :thumb001:

Cleitus
01-25-2014, 04:20 PM
..

Hurrem sultana
01-25-2014, 04:23 PM
westerners can enjoy their power because its not gonna last too long

arcticwolf
01-25-2014, 04:26 PM
Poland isnt Western European

How did you manage to completely misunderstand my post?

Cleitus
01-25-2014, 04:27 PM
How did you manage to completely misunderstand my post?

haha sorry i didnt read it right

RussiaPrussia
01-25-2014, 04:31 PM
i can understand if eastern euros dont like russia still doesnt mean you need to be lapdogs of germans and french. Eastern europeans should do their own union without russia and western europeans.

Balmung
01-25-2014, 04:47 PM
The east is already rock bottom. How can anyone screw it up any more than it already is socially, morally, and economically. Perhaps the West may end up a little more "brown" around the metropolitan areas in the future. But I think most would pick that over poverty and corruption. There is a reason here in the states no longer do we receive Western European immigrants as much as we do the East. The Russians are even beating the Brits in terms of migration and this was once British land. Let me ask you this, just how many Brits, Swedes, Norwegians, Germans etc fill the cities of Eastern European countries. Now how many Easterners fill the cities of Western European countries in comparison? I rest my case.

arcticwolf
01-25-2014, 04:57 PM
The east is already rock bottom. How can anyone screw it up any more than it already is socially, morally, and economically. Perhaps the West may end up a little more "brown" around the metropolitan areas in the future. But I think most would pick that over poverty and corruption. There is a reason here in the states no longer do we receive Western European immigrants as much as we do the East. The Russians are even beating the Brits in terms of migration and this was once British land. Let me ask you this, just how many Brits, Swedes, Norwegians, Germans etc fill the cities of Eastern European countries. Now how many Easterners fill the cities of Western European countries in comparison? I rest my case.


The emotions are getting the best of you. A little more brown? Aren't you an optimist.

The Russian immigration to the USA is for the most part Jewish and minorities from Russia, not Russians proper.

East and West have different needs and aspirations, no amount of griping is gonna change that. Sooner or later divorce is inevitable. Nothing lasts forever, you need to get used to that.

PowerControls
01-25-2014, 07:20 PM
The question is...why Eastern Europe need to catch up economically at all? Perhaps because it was part of the Soviet Bloc for 50 years and robbed by USSR and its own puppet governments controlled from Moscow. Interesting that this entire convergence begun only after the fall of communism and collapse of the Soviet Union. Coincidence? ;-)

PS. This article, like many other by Mark Adomanis is just BS.

arcticwolf
01-25-2014, 07:33 PM
The question is...why Eastern Europe need to catch up economically at all? Perhaps because it was part of the Soviet Bloc for 50 years and robbed by USSR and its own puppet governments controlled from Moscow. Interesting that this entire convergence begun only after the fall of communism and collapse of the Soviet Union. Coincidence? ;-)

PS. This article, like many other by Mark Adomanis is just BS.

The question is how did the Eastern Europe come under Soviet influence, our "friends" agreeing to partition of Europe in Yalta, would not have anything to with that I'm guessing. West has selective memory and an excuse of pragmatism. Facts are facts, what's been done can't be undone.

What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result every time, is that it?

I think it's time to learn our lesson, and let the unworkable go its way ... alone. ;)

Windischer
01-25-2014, 07:39 PM
1. its largely about central europe.
2. the convergence of early 2000s is related mainly to reforms and overall environment of high expectations and hope, which fueled the economy.
2. current economic problems dont have much to do with "tight money", theyre related to brainflow towards usa, germany & western europe...
3. ... and to badly structured economy in some cases...
4. ... and to the corrupt moral swamp of society.

arcticwolf
01-25-2014, 07:54 PM
1. its largely about central europe.
2. the convergence of early 2000s is related mainly to reforms and overall environment of high expectations and hope, which fueled the economy.
2. current economic problems dont have much to do with "tight money", theyre related to brainflow towards usa, germany & western europe...
3. ... and to badly structured economy in some cases...
4. ... and to the corrupt moral swamp of society.

That's what we need a pot smoking hippie, chiming in! :laugh:

Hercus Monte
01-26-2014, 07:53 AM
The question is how did the Eastern Europe come under Soviet influence, our "friends" agreeing to partition of Europe in Yalta, would not have anything to with that I'm guessing. West has selective memory and an excuse of pragmatism. Facts are facts, what's been done can't be undone.

they didn't actually. the soviets agreed to hold fair elections. they just ignored the ''fair'' part.

Prisoner Of Ice
01-26-2014, 08:38 AM
The question is how did the Eastern Europe come under Soviet influence, our "friends" agreeing to partition of Europe in Yalta, would not have anything to with that I'm guessing. West has selective memory and an excuse of pragmatism. Facts are facts, what's been done can't be undone.

What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result every time, is that it?

I think it's time to learn our lesson, and let the unworkable go its way ... alone. ;)

I thnk it's something to do with, a bunch of tanks and stuff, but I am not sure.