View Full Version : Swiss ban minarets
Electronic God-Man
11-29-2009, 03:31 PM
GENEVA (Nov. 27) -- Swiss voters approved a move to ban the construction of minarets in a Sunday vote on a right-wing initiative that labeled the mosque towers as symbols of militant Islam, projections by a widely respected polling institute showed.
The projections based on partial returns say Swiss swung from only 37 percent supporting the proposal a week ago to 59 percent in the actual voting.
Claude Longchamp, leader of the widely respected gfs.bern polling institute, said the projection contracted by state-owned DRS television forecasts approval of the initiative by more than half the country's 26 cantons, meaning it will become a constitutional amendment.
The nationalist Swiss People's Party describes minarets, the distinctive spires used in most countries for calls to prayer, as symbols of rising Muslim political and religious power that could eventually turn Switzerland into an Islamic nation.
Muslims make up about 6 percent of Switzerland's 7.5 million people. Many Swiss Muslims are refugees from the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s. Fewer than 13 percent practice their religion, the government says, and Swiss mosques do not broadcast the call to prayer outside their buildings.
"Forced marriages and other things like cemeteries separating the pure and impure — we don't have that in Switzerland, and we do not want to introduce it" said Ulrich Schlueer, co-president of the Initiative Committee to ban minarets.
The move by the People's Party, the country's largest party in terms of popular support and membership in parliament, is part of a broader European backlash against a growing Muslim population. It has stirred fears of violent reactions in Muslim countries and an economically disastrous boycott by wealthy Muslims who bank, shop and vacation in Switzerland.
Taner Hatipoglu, president of the Federation of Islamic Organizations in Zurich, said, "The initiators have achieved something everyone wanted to prevent, and that is to influence and change the relations to Muslims and their social integration in a negative way." Hatipoglu said if in the long term the anti-Islam atmosphere continues, "Muslims indeed will not feel safe anymore."
The seven-member Cabinet that heads the Swiss government has spoken out strongly against the initiative, and local officials and rights defenders objected to campaign posters showing minarets rising like missiles from the Swiss flag next to a fully veiled woman.
The People's Party has campaigned mainly unsuccessfully in previous years against immigrants with campaign posters showing white sheep kicking a black sheep off the Swiss flag and another with brown hands grabbing eagerly for Swiss passports.
The four minarets already attached to mosques in the country are not affected by the initiative.
Geneva's main mosque was vandalized Thursday when someone threw a pot of pink paint at the entrance. Earlier this month, a vehicle with a loudspeaker drove through the area imitating a muezzin's call to prayer, and vandals damaged a mosaic when they threw cobblestones at the building.
Source (http://news.aol.com/article/swiss-vote-to-ban-new-minarets/788109)
Zyklop
11-29-2009, 03:32 PM
<headline>Switzerland 'approves minaret ban'</headline>
<cite>November 30, 2009 - 3:24AM</cite>
<bod> Over 57 percent of Swiss voters on Sunday approved a blanket ban on the construction of Muslim minarets, according to official results posted by Swiss news agency ATS.
A final tally of 26 cantons indicates that 57.5 percent of the population have voted in favour of the ban on minarets -- the turrets or towers attached on mosques from where Muslims are called to prayer.
Only four cantons rejected the proposal brought by Switzerland's biggest party -- the Swiss People's Party (SVP), which claims that minarets symbolise a "political-religious claim to power."
The SVP had forced a referendum under Swiss regulations on the issue after collecting 100,000 signatures within 18 months from eligible voters.
The Swiss government was firmly against the call, arguing that accepting a ban would bring about "incomprehension overseas and harm Switzerland's image."
Switzerland has an uneasy relationship with its Muslim population of some 400,000 in a country of 7.5 million people. Islam is the second largest religion here after Christianity.
</bod> © 2009 AFP (http://news.smh.com.au/action/displayCopyrightNotice?sourceOrganisation=AFP)http ://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/switzerland-approves-minaret-ban-20091129-jz0s.html
The most shocking part is that this ban is even necessary. In Switzerland? Crazy shit. When I think Switzerland, I think rural idyll, cheese, cuckoo clocks, cattle and mountains. And yodeling.
:thumb001: Switzerland appears to have backed minaret ban
Voters in Switzerland appeared to have backed a call to ban minarets from mosques, according to early exit poll results.
By Alexandra Williams in Geneva and Bruno Waterfield
Published: 10:16AM GMT 29 Nov 2009
A pedestrian walks past a display advertising the initiative against the construction of new minarets in Switzerland, in Geneva Photo: REUTERS
Thirty minutes after the referendum finished at midday, Swiss television reported: “The initiative would appear to be accepted. There is a positive trend. It’s a huge surprise.”
According to the respected gfs.bern polling institute an estimated 59 per cent of voters backed the ban. A majority of cantons were also in support of the initiative.
“A majority have voted for a nationwide ban on the construction of minarets,” said the institute’s director Claude Longchamp, speaking on Swiss Radio DRS.
For the Swiss constitution to be changed, the majority of the electorate and a majority of the cantons are required to vote ‘yes’.
A survey two weeks ago showed 53 per cent said they would reject it. Both the government and parliament had rejected the initiative.
Commentators had said the country risked international pariah status and a backlash across the Muslim world if a ’yes’ vote was achieved.
If the exit polls prove correct it will be a huge shock and Switzerland risks international pariah status and a backlash across the Muslim world.
Sunday's vote was forced by members of the far-right Swiss People's party (SVP) which has provoked a national debate over immigration with powerful billboard images.
The stark "stop" posters depicting a Muslim woman in a burka against the backdrop of a Swiss flag studded with missile shaped black minarets have been banned in many towns.
Hanspeter Rentsch, an executive director at the watch company Swatch, has warned that the referendum, and the poster propaganda, could damage Switzerland in the eyes of the world.
"The 'Swiss' brand must continue to represent values such as openness, pluralism and freedom of religion. Under no circumstances must it be connected with hatred, animosity towards foreigners and narrow-mindedness," he said.
Campaigners demanded the referendum to halt "political Islamisation" by amending the Swiss constitution to add a clause stating "the construction of minarets is prohibited".
Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf, the Swiss justice minister, has suggested that a vote for a ban could fuel Islamist radicalism and violent protests, such as those that greeted Danish cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed in 2006.
"This is not an appropriate instrument for combating religious extremism. It risks the opposite, of serving the cause of fanatics," she said.
But Oskar Freysinger, an SVP MP, compares warnings of anger in the Muslim world to the arguments used by "appeasers" of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis.
"It is what Chamberlain thought in Munich in 1938. If these are the consequences, it is the proof that what we are doing to defend ourselves is legitimate," he said.
The vote is required because campaigners got over 100,000 signatures on a petition against minarets triggering a vote under the Swiss constitution.
The campaign followed a row over a minaret in the tiny town of Langenthal, in the Bern canton of Switzerland.
Earlier this year Langenthal's 750 Muslims asked for planning permission to add a minaret, 30 feet high, to their mosque in a town with 11 churches and 14,500 inhabitants.
The reaction to the apparently harmless request has polarised Switzerland and crossed borders to feed into British, French, Dutch and Austrian fears over Islam and national identity.
"This minaret is a symbol of conquest and power which marks the will to introduce Sharia law as has happened in some other European cities. We will not accept that," said Ulrich Schueler, an SVP politician and leader of the "stop" minaret campaign.
Muslims have rejected the argument that a minaret symbolises Muslim power. Mutalip Karaademi, leader of Langenthal's Muslim community and of Albanian origin, accused Mr Schueler of telling "dirty lies".
"A minaret is a symbol nothing more. It s nice to see a house of god with a minaret or a church steeple or cupolas on a synagogue," he said.
"They call us terrorists. They call us Taliban, so many labels all wrong. They insult us. We love this country, almost more than our own. Our children were born here." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/switzerland/6683249/Switzerland-appears-to-have-backed-minaret-ban.html
The most shocking part is that this ban is even necessary. In Switzerland? Crazy shit. When I think Switzerland, I think rural idyll, cheese, cuckoo clocks, cattle and mountains. And yodeling.
Think of it as a prophylactic.
RoyBatty
11-29-2009, 04:28 PM
Good move. Now when can action be taken against the NWO and its EU offspring from Brussels? When can we have an end to the occupation of Europe by USRael?
The inevitable whine will commence henceforth.
Electronic God-Man
11-29-2009, 05:07 PM
Taner Hatipoglu, president of the Federation of Islamic Organizations in Zurich, said, "The initiators have achieved something everyone wanted to prevent, and that is to influence and change the relations to Muslims and their social integration in a negative way." Hatipoglu said if in the long term the anti-Islam atmosphere continues, "Muslims indeed will not feel safe anymore."
Sounds good to me. Maybe they will pack up and leave then. :lightbul:
RoyBatty
11-29-2009, 05:13 PM
The inevitable whine will commence henceforth.
Let them cry. Who cares. It's outrageous that Europe has been putting up with this BS for so long. There's no way similar activities would have been tolerated in most of the Middle East.
Even Israel has policies against Christian proselytizing. (*Note that I'm not promoting Christianity but since European society is shaped to an extent by "Christian characteristics" it needed to be mentioned.)
Why the hell do we always bend over backward to accommodate our competitors (Jews, Muslims, Africans, Asians etc) while they take full advantage of our generous idiocy?
Why did we become suicidal and started allowing ourselves to be led like lambs to the slaughter by those who wish to exploit and undermine us and destroy our civilisations in favour of their ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT?
:confused:
Sol Invictus
11-29-2009, 05:15 PM
Good move. Now when can action be taken against the NWO and its EU offspring from Brussels? When can we have an end to the occupation of Europe by USRael?
When pigs fly.
And I'm not talking about swine flu. :D
j/k
The Lawspeaker
11-29-2009, 05:26 PM
I read it in the papers. This is very good news and it really made my day. Now I hope that they don't get bullied and blackmailed into submission.
Let them cry. Who cares. It's outrageous that Europe has been putting up with this BS for so long. There's no way similar activities would have been tolerated in most of the Middle East.
Even Israel has policies against Christian proselytizing. (*Note that I'm not promoting Christianity but since European society is shaped to an extent by "Christian characteristics" it needed to be mentioned.)
Why the hell do we always bend over backward to accommodate our competitors (Jews, Muslims, Africans, Asians etc) while they take full advantage of our generous idiocy?
Why did we become suicidal and started allowing ourselves to be led like lambs to the slaughter by those who wish to exploit and undermine us and destroy our civilisations in favour of their ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT?
:confused:
Let's see what the "good" book can come up with. :lightbul:
He who sits in heaven laughs; God looks at them [the rulers] in derision. Then in his anger he rebukes them, terrifies them in his fury. :eek:
Their will will not be done, the NWOers that is. I'm hopeful that things will turn out for the better, maybe not in my lifetime, but they will turn out for the better. All of this nonsense is just that, nonsense.
All of the intricate plots and schemes will come crashing down. It's as if these turds haven't heard of Murphy's law nor the power of the human will to not be denied: "We hold these truths to be self-evident etc."
I trust in providence, aided by the righteous anger of a furious citizenry if need be, to set things right. The main thing is is that the citizenry needs to be properly angered, properly organized and properly led- not on a local, state/provincial or even national scale- but on a global scale. Who'll do it? Who can do it? Someone sent by the heavens, since these manipulators that lord it over us now are all the spawn of hell.
Gwynyvyr
11-29-2009, 06:40 PM
I was so happy to see this in the news!
Freomæg
11-29-2009, 11:32 PM
I was so happy to see this in the news!
Ditto! Not often we get such significant good news like this. :D
Electronic God-Man
11-30-2009, 12:14 AM
I posted this article on Facebook and somebody commented with this:
Well, wasn't that thoughtful. That it made it to voting is sickening, that it was approved is even worse.
:rolleyes: Yeah, I hate it when the people make their opinions known and then the government follows through. It really sucks.
Fucking morons. :coffee:
Boo-hoo- boohoo that the Swiss didn't vote to burn every mosque in Switzerland.
Vulpix
11-30-2009, 12:56 PM
here we go:
France's foreign minister is decrying a ‘show of intolerance’ in Switzerland after voters there overwhelmingly approved a constitutional ban on minarets.
Bernard Kouchner said he is ‘a bit scandalised’ about the Swiss referendum result, calling it ‘negative’ because banning the construction of Muslim mosque towers amounts to ‘oppressing a religion.’
Kouchner added on France's RTL radio today: ‘I hope that the Swiss will go back on this decision rather quickly.’
Muslim groups in Switzerland and abroad condemned yesterday’s vote as biased and anti-Islamic.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1231854/Voters-ready-ban-minarets-Switzerland-exit-polls-show.html
Suck it up :D!
Other than the Architectural reason as towers are off-scale objects in a surrounding context i can't see a strong reason to ban Minarets. Swiss Muslins will continue to practise their religion without Minarets.
Marginalising these communities it's not the right path to follow, if they don't want Muslin people it's ok, just cut down on immigration. But after accepting these people and granting them Swiss citizenship it would be reasonable to show tolerance(which is already shown to other congregations) which is surely foreseen by the Swiss constitution .
Other than the Architectural reason as towers are off-scale objects in a surrounding context i can't see a strong reason to ban Minarets. Swiss Muslins will continue to practise their religion without Minarets.
Marginalising these communities it's not the right path to follow, if they don't want Muslin people it's ok, just cut down on immigration. But after accepting these people and granting them Swiss citizenship it would be reasonable to show tolerance(which is already shown to other congregations) which is surely foreseen by the Swiss constitution .
It's not just about that. It's about defacing the look of Switzerland. Minarets don't belong there, and allowing them would be a sign of capitulation to mass immigration and colonization. Besides, making the resident Muslims angry and frustrated can't be a bad thing. It could also serve to discourage future immigration from Muslims, if they perceive Switzerland to be hostile to their religion. It's all good.
Anthropos
11-30-2009, 02:18 PM
It's not just about that. It's about defacing the look of Switzerland. Minarets don't belong there, and allowing them would be a sign of capitulation to mass immigration and colonization. Besides, making the resident Muslims angry and frustrated can't be a bad thing. It could also serve to discourage future immigration from Muslims, if they perceive Switzerland to be hostile to their religion. It's all good.
This question is already in the hands of the Swiss government.
I see mass immigration as far worse than minarets.
I bet they can pray their god even without minarets, and honestly I don't see what they can complaint about when a church would be burnt in a second in their countries.
It's not just about that. It's about defacing the look of Switzerland. Minarets don't belong there, and allowing them would be a sign of capitulation to mass immigration and colonization.
That's only valid if applied to all religious congregations. Religious freedom is a basilar principle in a democracy.
Besides, making the resident Muslims angry and frustrated can't be a bad thing. It could also serve to discourage future immigration from Muslims.
That has never been the trend throughout history, religious people are resilient when it comes to their faith. The Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland are a good example of this.
if they perceive Switzerland to be hostile to their religion. It's all good.
Like i said, ostracised religious minorities tend to gain unexpected support. They can make out this a terrible crusade.
Svarog
11-30-2009, 02:37 PM
Great news, I am not sure if this si the 2nd country to do this move, think Denmark also told them to fuck off, well, Serbia don't have a ban but once they build one we burn it down so, it can be 3rd country.
The most shocking part is that this ban is even necessary. In Switzerland? Crazy shit. When I think Switzerland, I think rural idyll, cheese, cuckoo clocks, cattle and mountains. And yodeling.
Just 100k of Albanian musim 'refugees' fled to Switzerland during 1999 chased away by Serbian terrorists, After Sweden and England Swiss accepted the most of these people, you think any of them cared to go back? :rolleyes:
Then Turks of course.
It is funny how good for nothing Eurosong can actually have it purpose, you look at the voting and can clearly say how many immigrants are in which country by looking at voting:
Germany 12 pts for Turkey on regular basis
Switzerland 12 to Turkey, 10 to Albania
Belgium 12 to Turkey etc
I bet they can pray their god even without minarets, and honestly I don't see what they can complaint about when a church would be burnt in a second in their countries.
Nothing to do with praying really, Muslim religion does NOT even kind of asks their people to go to Mosques to pray, actually, it says: every muslim should fall on his knees and pray whenever he is at the moment if it is the time for the prayer - street, home, whenever - that is why they used to carry those little sheets with them all the time.
Vulpix
11-30-2009, 03:00 PM
Interesting take on the BBC:
Minaret ban marks start of tough Swiss debate on Islam (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8386456.stm)
By Imogen Foulkes
BBC News, Geneva
In Switzerland the soul-searching has begun following Sunday's nationwide referendum in which voters surprisingly backed a plan to ban the construction of minarets.
No-one can quite understand how a proposal widely regarded even by its supporters as destined for failure at the ballot box actually came to be passed.
That, however, according to political analysts, may have been part of the problem.
Opinion polls showing a majority of voters would reject a ban were only to be expected, says Zurich political scientist Michael Hermann, when most of the Swiss media had already categorised a ban on minarets as politically incorrect and its supporters stupid.
"People aren't necessarily going to tell pollsters the truth if they think it makes them look ignorant and intolerant," explained Mr Hermann
...
Unease underestimated
What many Swiss politicians are beginning to realise this morning is that they underestimated the concern among their population about integration of Muslims in Switzerland, and about possible Islamic extremism.
...
So concerned is the government by the decision that Swiss Justice Minister Eveline Widmer Schlumpf, watching the results come in on Sunday afternoon, apparently told her advisers there ought to be some restrictions on what the general public can actually vote on. [democracy is only good when it goes their way]
...
This, for Switzerland, is political dynamite. The country's system of direct democracy is sacrosanct. The people are allowed to vote on any policy and to propose policy themselves, which is what they did on minarets.
The fact that there is little evidence of Muslim extremism in Switzerland and that the banning of minarets would be unlikely to prevent extremism even if it did exist, does not really matter. The real issue is that there was clearly unease among the Swiss population, particularly among rural communities, about Islam.
That's only valid if applied to all religious congregations. Religious freedom is a basilar principle in a democracy.
This isn't about religion at all. It's about an intolerant, aggressively expanding culture that tries to make itself seen in the country that is hosting the parasites. There aren't any cathedrals in Saudi Arabia. Why? Because they're not allowed there. But no-one makes a fuss about it, it is just accepted as normal, since it is their playground. Similarly, they should accept and respect the fact that Switzerland does not want to look like the Middle East. It's appalling that anyone defends the view that minarets would somehow be nice in Switzerland.
That has never been the trend throughout history, religious people are resilient when it comes to their faith. The Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland are a good example of this.
Different situation altogether, you can't compare that.
Like i said, ostracised religious minorities tend to gain unexpected support. They can make out this a terrible crusade.
Nah, Islam is not exactly going to make masses of converts among the native Swiss. They spread their religion these days primarily through birth rate and immigration. In the past it was by the sword.
Beorn
11-30-2009, 03:22 PM
Well done Switzerland. Here's to the the next step: Repatriation. :thumbs
Anthropos
11-30-2009, 03:27 PM
Well done Switzerland. Here's to the the next step: Repatriation. :thumbs
As far as I know they haven't put an end to their mass immigration program yet, and there are no plans on it that I'm aware of either.
Hrolf Kraki
11-30-2009, 03:55 PM
Finally a victory!!! This is a step in the right direction. I'm so glad that Switzerland took a stand against this dangerous encroachment.
Long live the Swiss!
Down with minarets!
Up with domes and columns!
plyS8sIUjmQ
Fuck Muslims, good job Switzerland.
Anthropos
11-30-2009, 05:06 PM
Surely a victory for people who hate 'Abrahamism', no doubt, regardless of whether it is going to make a positive difference or if it's just a matter of a shallow, liberalistic-materialistic sentiment. Surely a victory for neocons who insist that some entirely secularised, depraved pseudo-Christianity must prevail in the West. Enough said.
If Switzerland was a traditional Christian country, it would make perfect sense that she did not want to have Islamic prayers megaphoned out over the cities, but as it is I'm not at all sure that this is good.
This is not a way to fight mass immigration.
I don't oppose or decry this. I just don't see the cause for celebration. The only thing that is interesting about it is that the people had a say and that a country in Western Europe dared to go ahead with something like this.
Hrolf Kraki
11-30-2009, 07:03 PM
plyS8sIUjmQ
Fuck Muslims, good job Switzerland.
Videos such as these need to be shown to the masses. This is what Islam is about: Intolerance. "We know for a fact Islam is right"? Get fucking real. Mathematical equations can be proven. Silly fantasies cannot.
Loddfafner
11-30-2009, 07:09 PM
The most shocking part is that this ban is even necessary. In Switzerland? Crazy shit. When I think Switzerland, I think rural idyll, cheese, cuckoo clocks, cattle and mountains. And yodeling.
That image of Switzerland was spoiled for me when I got out of Zurich Hauptbanhoff and walked into a park where hundreds of people were shooting up. They were buying heroin from swarthy characters who resembled that Serbian gypsy and obtaining their needles from nurses dressed more like the nurses of fetish porn than anyone working in an actual hospital. I watch a yodeler help Heidi put a strap around her arm and stick a needle in.
Liffrea
11-30-2009, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Fjallrav
So concerned is the government by the decision that Swiss Justice Minister Eveline Widmer Schlumpf, watching the results come in on Sunday afternoon, apparently told her advisers there ought to be some restrictions on what the general public can actually vote on. [democracy is only good when it goes their way]
There is a saying, if you don’t listen to the men of words you will listen to the men with swords….or something to that affect…..
As for the result democracy, such as it is, in action, the Swiss political elite seem not to understand that they are, at least, supposed to show they care for the public's wishes.......
This isn't about religion at all. It's about an intolerant, aggressively expanding culture that tries to make itself seen in the country that is hosting the parasites. There aren't any cathedrals in Saudi Arabia. Why? Because they're not allowed there. But no-one makes a fuss about it, it is just accepted as normal, since it is their playground.
But Switzerland isn't a Theocratic state like Saudi Arabia. That's like saying that just because Slavery still exists in some countries it also should be also enforced in Portugal, Britain or Switzerland.
Similarly, they should accept and respect the fact that Switzerland does not want to look like the Middle East. It's appalling that anyone defends the view that minarets would somehow be nice in Switzerland.
It's not about looking nice but about religious tolerance which is something existent in any secular democratic state in Europe.
Nah, Islam is not exactly going to make masses of converts among the native Swiss. They spread their religion these days primarily through birth rate and immigration. In the past it was by the sword.
Well you can't put it in those terms, you refer to it as a monolithic entity as if they were a collective. The most common trend is for Muslins to gradually embrace the Western secular values. Only these kind of actions put a brake on that, if we isolate and ostracise religious minorities they will just follow a more fundamentalist path, they will resist to the mainstream cultural values.
Psychonaut
11-30-2009, 08:08 PM
It's not about looking nice but about religious tolerance which is something vigent in any secular democratic state in Europe.
The way I see it, the encroachment of Islam is less of an issue of religious expression and more one of treason. Not only are fundamentalist Muslims opposed to the very constitutional charters that permit them to practice their faith, but they have also shown their intentions of replacing it with their own system which is diametrically opposed to those of their host nations. This ventures far from the religious domain and is solidly in the socio-political sphere of activity. But that's they way it's always been with Islam, since the beginning. Outside of a few Westernized nations, there has never been a differentiation between the religious, social and political spheres. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, but when implanted in the midst of a Western nation it becomes an issue.
The way I see it, the encroachment of Islam is less of an issue of religious expression and more one of treason. Not only are fundamentalist Muslims opposed to the very constitutional charters that permit them to practice their faith, but they have also shown their intentions of replacing it with their own system which is diametrically opposed to those of their host nations. This ventures far from the religious domain and is solidly in the socio-political sphere of activity. But that's they way it's always been with Islam, since the beginning. Outside of a few Westernized nations, there has never been a differentiation between the religious, social and political spheres. This is not a bad thing in and of itself, but when implanted in the midst of a Western nation it becomes an issue.
Yes i agree with you for the most part, but just because a bunch of religious extremists have lots of money and broadcasting time it doesn't mean they speak for millions and millions of people around the globe.
Psychonaut
11-30-2009, 08:22 PM
Yes i agree with you for the most part, but just because a bunch of religious extremists have lots of money and broadcasting time it doesn't mean they speak for millions and millions of people around the globe.
However, with an ideological problem, treating the symptoms does absolutely nothing. You can crush a weed as many times as you want, but it will continue to grow back until it's uprooted. The fact that there are as many fundamentalists as there are in Europe is a clear sign that it's already taken root. When faced with deportation or discrimination, those leaning towards fundamentalism will of course try to present themselves as otherwise. So, how do you differentiate? Can you? Or must you treat Islam in a uniformly harsh manner?
It's not about looking nice but about religious tolerance which is something existent in any secular democratic state in Europe.
One doesn't need a minaret to practice the Islamic faith. This has nothing whatsoever to do with religious tolerance. There is way more religious tolerance everywhere in Europe, than in any of the Islamic countries.
However, with an ideological problem, treating the symptoms does absolutely nothing. You can crush a weed as many times as you want, but it will continue to grow back until it's uprooted.
Well, i was talking about change, like transforming an apple into a banana. It's not about treating symptoms but about integration into our model of society.
The fact that there are as many fundamentalists as there are in Europe is a clear sign that it's already taken root.
Many? how many? A fistful of them?
One doesn't need a minaret to practice the Islamic faith. This has nothing whatsoever to do with religious tolerance. There is way more religious tolerance everywhere in Europe, than in any of the Islamic countries.
I don't go by their standards, i have higher and better standards. The comparison was certainly hyperbolic but i won't downgrade an inch into their direction.
I don't go by their standards, i have higher and better standards. The comparison was certainly hyperbolic but i won't downgrade an inch into their direction.
Your standards are to deface Switzerland with minarets? Those standards are really crappy, sorry to say.
Your standards are to deface Switzerland with minarets? Those standards are really crappy, sorry to say.
My standards are of religious tolerance, whether we are talking about minarets or bell towers.
Psychonaut
11-30-2009, 09:00 PM
My standards are of religious tolerance, whether we are talking about minarets or bell towers.
You cannot tolerate intolerance of your own system from within and expect the original model to remain intact.
My standards are of religious tolerance, whether we are talking about minarets or bell towers.
Ok I'm going to start a new religion tomorrow that entails littering the streets of Lisbon with used condoms and blow up dolls. I hope you will be tolerant of that.
You cannot tolerate intolerance of your own system from within and expect the original model to remain intact.
So just because the USA allow the Nazi party to exist does it mean that you the USA will become Nazi?
Ok I'm going to start a new religion tomorrow that entails littering the streets of Lisbon with used condoms and blow up dolls. I hope you will be tolerant of that.
Not on the streets but you could do it on a appropriate building for the effect.
Psychonaut
11-30-2009, 09:06 PM
So just because the USA allow the Nazi party to exist does it mean that you the USA will become Nazi?
If we were importing Nazis at the rate most European nations are importing Muslims, then there'd be a danger of that, yes.
If we were importing Nazis at the rate most European nations are importing Muslims, then there'd be a danger of that, yes.
That's because you equate being Muslim with being dangerous per se.
Not on the streets but you could do it on a appropriate building for the effect.
How about your house? My religion specifies that I decorate the front door of my neighbour with used condoms. If you don't accept it you're an intolerant bigot.
Psychonaut
11-30-2009, 09:11 PM
That's because you equate being Muslim with being dangerous per se.
Yes, the ideology that brings on terrorist attacks, honor killings, the subjugation of women and that seeks to supplant my Constitution with Sharia Law is indeed dangerous.
How about your house? My religion specifies that I decorate the front door of my neighbour with used condoms. If you don't accept it you're an intolerant bigot.
As i refered in another thread(related to the ban of crosses) religious manifestations must be held in specific buildings for the effect. Clothing, decoration and/or other practises must be banned from public and residential(from the outside) contexts.
As i refered in another thread(related to the ban of crosses) religious manifestations must be held in specific buildings for the effect. Clothing, decoration and/or other practises must be banned from public and residential(from the outside) contexts.
Who decided that? According to which dictator? Kadu? :wink You can have your own ideas but your ludicrous nonchalance about Switzerland being defaced by ugly Middle Eastern cult buildings is, thankfully, your own and very much in a minority in Switzerland. And the Swiss don't give a fuck what an internet guy from Portugal thinks, anyway.
Osweo
11-30-2009, 09:25 PM
Christ, Kadu, nobody's forcing any Muslim to come and live with us, or in Switzerland, for that matter.
And have you ever actually lived with Muslims? I went to school with scores of them. This was a Grammar School - you had to pass an exam to get in, and pay - so you didn't get the ignorant low level of Pakistani immigrant society; you got the future lawyers, politicians and business high-flyers. And what you would term 'extremist' and 'aberrant' rather than 'true ordinary Islam' was VERY widespread among them. There were violent riots in my home town at the time, started by their lower level peers, but the two sides of the Pakistani community showed great solidarity during this and its aftermath. You don't know what you're dealing with.
Immigrant communities KNOW that strength lies in solidarity, in being out for all that they can get, in being two-faced when necessary. Minarets are a symbol to them, of their success in imposing themselves on us, wiping away our world as they alter our townscapes.
Muslims are the pin that has come to pop your little bubble of 'values' and 'civilised standards'.
Yes, the ideology that brings on terrorist attacks, honor killings and subjugation of women and seeks to supplant my Constitution with Sharia Law is indeed dangerous.
Well the part about terrorist attacks it's just your bitter due to the 9/11, a bunch of guys who don't represent Muslins.
I also don't think they are trying to supplant your constitution, i think indeed that their customs and traditions are despicable but your nation doesn't fall the risk turning into an Islamic Theocracy.
Psychonaut
11-30-2009, 09:29 PM
Well the part about terrorist attacks it's just your bitter due to the 9/11, a bunch of guys who don't represent Muslins.
Umm...the last time I checked there've been way more successful and attempted terrorist attacks perpetrated by Muslims other than 9/11. Hell, there as one at Ft. Hood this month.
I also don't think they are trying to supplant your constitution, i think indeed that their customs and traditions are despicable but your nation doesn't fall the risk turning into an Islamic Theocracy.
If we were importing them at the rate we are Mexicans that certainly would be a risk.
Who decided that? According to which dictator? Kadu? :wink You can have your own ideas but your ludicrous nonchalance about Switzerland being defaced by ugly Middle Eastern cult buildings is, thankfully, your own and very much in a minority in Switzerland. And the Swiss don't give a fuck what an internet guy from Portugal thinks, anyway.
I was stating my opinion only, maybe i should have had "IMO" but this is after all a discussion forum.
I was stating my opinion only, maybe i should have had "IMO" but this is after all a discussion forum.
Stating your opinion is fine, but it is also fine to tell you what we think of it. :thumb001:
Osweo
11-30-2009, 09:35 PM
Well the part about terrorist attacks it's just your bitter due to the 9/11, a bunch of guys who don't represent Muslins.
Muslims I grew up with loved it. You don't know them. These were Muslims not from Arabia, not in America, not affected by US policy around the world to any appreciable extent. But they were all Muslims together. Muhammad would have been proud of them.
I also don't think they are trying to supplant your constitution, i think indeed that their customs and traditions are despicable but your nation doesn't fall the risk turning into an Islamic Theocracy.
MY nation does. My town already is. One of the reasons I'm not there any more.
MY nation does. My town already is. One of the reasons I'm not there any more.
And why is that? Isn't the English law enforced in Lancashire just like everywhere else?
Loddfafner
11-30-2009, 09:48 PM
I think Switzerland should allow minarets...
... under the condition that conceptual artists get to wrap them up with gigantic condoms.
Treffie
11-30-2009, 09:49 PM
Well done Switzerland. Here's to the the next step: Repatriation. :thumbs
Dream on, you're obviously deluded.
Osweo
11-30-2009, 09:51 PM
And why is that? Isn't the English law enforced in Lancashire just like everywhere else?
NO. It is NOT. The Police are POLITICAL. THEIR crimes are hidden, ignored, and actually rather hard to investigate anyway, because of their community solidarity. Police chiefs and local government are under pressure to preserve the idea that 'Everything is FINE here! Diversity is WONDERFUL!'.
Can you please not accept from those intimately affected that this is absolutely disastrous? I fear that not until EVERY town in the country and continent has seen this for itself will people like you realise what exactly is at stake.
Liffrea
11-30-2009, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Kadu
I also don't think they are trying to supplant your constitution…..
An article from 2005:
Four out of 10 British Muslims want sharia law introduced into parts of the country, a survey reveals today.
The ICM opinion poll also indicates that a fifth have sympathy with the "feelings and motives" of the suicide bombers who attacked London last July 7, killing 52 people, although 99 per cent thought the bombers were wrong to carry out the atrocity.
Overall, the findings depict a Muslim community becoming more radical and feeling more alienated from mainstream society, even though 91 per cent still say they feel loyal to Britain.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
2008:
A friend of Coffee House is in touch to point out that the numbers from the ICM poll for Peter Oborne’s Dispatches programme last night, show that a plurality of Muslims under 35 are in favour of there being some parts of the UK where elements of Sharia are introduced. Here are the numbers.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/823296/a-plurality-of-muslims-under-35-support-there-being-areas-of-the-uk-where-some-elements-ofsharia-law-are-introduced.thtml
2009:
A study last week by the thinktank Civitas claimed that there could be as many as 85 sharia courts in Britain, although Dr Hasan says most of these are not formal courts. But it is certainly a growing network.
As I prepare to leave Leyton, office staff are cheering on Andy Murray at Wimbledon, a scene being played out across the country. Meanwhile, in a back room, Sheik Haitham Al-Haddad, one of the most senior imams in Britain, is once more contemplating the fundamental split between religion and state.
'There is a conflict between these two sets of values,' he concedes. ' Muslims believe our values are best. The non-Islamic British believe theirs are better. But at the end of the day, understand this: Muslims are never going to give up certain principles, even if they are in conflict. That is a fact.'
Sharia law in Britain is here to stay and perhaps even spread. But it's a perilous tightrope we tread - the line between multicultural tolerance and protecting the rights of the individual.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1197478/Sharia-law-UK--How-Islam-dispensing-justice-side-British-courts.html#ixzz0YNwHmGNH
2009:
A RADICAL Muslim group sparked outrage last night as it launched a massive campaign to impose sharia law on Britain.
The fanatical group Islam4UK has announced plans to hold a potentially incendiary rally in London later this month.
And it is calling for a complete upheaval of the British legal system, its officials and legislation.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/134080/Now-Muslims-demand-Give-us-full-Sharia-law
Pat Condel on the sort of law many Muslims want in Britain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-KHHKuVVRc
Not trying to supplant the constitution, I agree they’re not trying a sizable proportion of Muslims are already wiping their arses (can they only use their left or right hand….I don’t recall) with British laws and nearlly half want to see more of it…..
Beorn
11-30-2009, 09:56 PM
Dream on, you're obviously deluded.
And dream I shall.
I wonder if five years ago the conversation would have been thus?
Drustan: "I hope to one day see the people decide to disallow the construction of minarets in Swiss towns."
Arawn: "Dream on, you're obviously deluded."
Whether you consider it a pipe dream, or some fanciful delusion to keep us insane racists comfort at night; the reality is that people, and Europe are waking up and making this delusion a reality.
In my lifetime we will see mass population removal. I only hope that population being removed is not me...or indeed yourself. :)
Falkata
11-30-2009, 09:57 PM
Muslims I grew up with loved it. You don't know them. These were Muslims not from Arabia, not in America, not affected by US policy around the world to any appreciable extent. But they were all Muslims together. Muhammad would have been proud of them.
The ones who attacked London were born and they grew up in UK if i remember good (or at least some of them)... The ones who did the 11-M here were from Morocco, Tunisia, Syria (supposely "moderated" countries) and some of them were living in Spain many years and they had even the nationality. They didnt attack Spain because of the Irak war, since the bombing attack was already planned before it and the terrorists weren´t from Irak neither. One of the suicide pilots of the 11-S set Al-Andalus as a main objective, even more important than Palestina.
They are loyal to Allah and they will never be european because they just dont want. It´s a real problem and try to hide it or pretend it doesn´t exist it doesn´t help too much imo.
Treffie
11-30-2009, 10:22 PM
In my lifetime we will see mass population removal. I only hope that population being removed is not me...or indeed yourself. :)
And how do you anticipate that this will happen?
Osweo
11-30-2009, 10:48 PM
And how do you anticipate that this will happen?
Do you think we've come to the end of history, Arawn, and that all future developments will be implemented by international accord, diplomacy and the wills of majorities?
People in the Russian and Austro-Hungarian Empires in 1900 would have been thought deluded if they'd accurately predicted the Soviet Union, Ceaucescu and the Third Reich. I fear similar shake ups may be on their way. :(
The major events of the Twentieth Century occured without any fundamental shift in the European population from its state in the Middle Ages, whereas the last fifty years have seen the very ethnic map torn up in many areas. Anything might happen, thanks to the social engineers in our governments and plutocratic oligarchies. :mad:
Treffie
11-30-2009, 10:56 PM
Do you think we've come to the end of history, Arawn, and that all future developments will be implemented by international accord, diplomacy and the wills of majorities?
People in the Russian and Austro-Hungarian Empires in 1900 would have been thought deluded if they'd accurately predicted the Soviet Union, Ceaucescu and the Third Reich. I fear similar shake ups may be on their way. :(
The major events of the Twentieth Century occured without any fundamental shift in the European population from its state in the Middle Ages, whereas the last fifty years have seen the very ethnic map torn up in many areas. Anything might happen, thanks to the social engineers in our governments and plutocratic oligarchies. :mad:
Islam is obviously here to stay in Europe, there's nothing that can be done about it, Osweo.
Islam is obviously here to stay in Europe, there's nothing that can be done about it, Osweo.
Capitulation is the easy way out, but we should always resist. Why not? At least as a matter of principle. We may not be able to make any difference ourselves, but we owe it to our ancestors' memories to try the best we can. Islam does not belong in Europe, and we should fight tooth and nail to halt the spread of this parasitic infection.
Vulpix
11-30-2009, 11:05 PM
Islam is obviously here to stay in Europe, there's nothing that can be done about it, Osweo.
The problem with Islam can be very succintly illustrated by its dogmatic division of the world in two camps: Dar al-Islam (House of Islam) and Dar al-Harb (House of War).
Treffie
11-30-2009, 11:14 PM
Capitulation is the easy way out, but we should always resist. Why not? At least as a matter of principle. We may not be able to make any difference ourselves, but we owe it to our ancestors' memories to try the best we can.
I've been wanting to say this for a long time but `resistance is futile`. All we can do is stem the immigration of Muslims into Europe, we can't send the 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation Muslims back. We can not preserve Europe, in the same way that civilisations such as Sumer etc could not be preserved.
Islam does not belong in Europe, and we should fight tooth and nail to halt the spread of this parasitic infection.
So, couldn't we have said the same thing about Christianity 2,000 years ago?
SwordoftheVistula
11-30-2009, 11:15 PM
The minaret ban makes sense for the same reason as places that have dress codes. It's not the actual thing being banned which is a problem, but the people who tend to come attached.
Osweo
11-30-2009, 11:18 PM
Islam is obviously here to stay in Europe, there's nothing that can be done about it, Osweo.
Persia is obviously here to stay in the Middle East, there's nothing that can be done about it, Muhammad.
Islam is obviously here to stay in Iberia, there's nothing that can be done about it, el Cid.
Rome is obviously here to stay in Germania, there's nothing that can be done about it, Arminius.
Russia is obviously here to stay in Finland, there's nothing that can be done about it, Mannerheim.
Britain is obviously here to stay in India, there's nothing that can be done about it, Ghandi.
White rule is obviously here to stay in Zimbabwe, there's nothing that can be done about it, Mugabe.
Britain is obviously here to stay in America, there's nothing that can be done about it, Washington.
Assyria is obviously here to stay in Israel, there's nothing that can be done about it, Hebrews.
Byzantium is obviously here to stay in Anatolia, there's nothing that can be done about it, Sultan.
History knows no constants. 'Never' is not in her vocabulary.
Absinthe
11-30-2009, 11:20 PM
So, couldn't we have said the same thing about Christianity 2,000 years ago?
I am waiting for your replies to this one. How are you going to counteract this argument? :icon_ask:
Psychonaut
11-30-2009, 11:20 PM
I've been wanting to say this for a long time but `resistance is futile`. All we can do is stem the immigration of Muslims into Europe, we can't send the 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation Muslims back. We can not preserve Europe, in the same way that civilisations such as Sumer etc could not be preserved.
It's only impossible if people think so long enough until they're minorities in their own lands. The Swiss have shown all of us that what may've been unthinkable five years ago is manifest today. The tide may very well turn.
So, couldn't we have said the same thing about Christianity 2,000 years ago?
:nod:
Loddfafner
11-30-2009, 11:31 PM
When I saw the minarets of Mostar, I though they were really cool, despite their, um, emasculation (or was it cirumcision?) by Croatian shells. From my rickety bus I thought I had found the border to the Middle East. I caught a glimpse of exotic Turkey without actually flying a hijackable plane. Bearded men tried to sell old metal junk around the ruins of the old bridge as if it were a bizarre Ottoman bazaar. I ate roasted Serb (or maybe it was just a Serbian roast) and admired the shell marks on absolutely every surface.
There are minarets in America, but in our glorious cacophony they are lost and meaningless.
Minarets in Switzerland? Minarets in the Netherlands under Cerny's floodwater? No. They spoil the effect of Mostar. Islam is an exotic other that should stay over there. Despite Edward Saïd, I refuse to renounce the pleasures of Orientalism but for them to work, there must be a border.
I used to live in a Maghrebi household in a Maghrebi neighborhood in Bordeaux. Funny it was a Yugoslav bum who shared his rotgut as he warned me about those Arabs but I was young and naïve. I know about the plight of the Arabs in France and used to sympathize but that was back when I could still take Europe for granted. I was surprised that my Moroccan housemate insisted that I dealt with the gas company and all that even though he spoke better French because at least I did not speak with an Arab accent.
After a few betrayals I learned that my trust was misplaced. My cosmopolitan attitude had disarmed me. Scholarly study of the language and culture led to the discovery of how incompatible it is. We are dealing with the human equivalent of invasive weeds.
Gamla Upsalla, the site of our old temples, is now trapped in a Somali ghetto. I am an American and don't live there, but I can at least lament.
Osweo
11-30-2009, 11:32 PM
I am waiting for your replies to this one. How are you going to counteract this argument? :icon_ask:
What argument? Christianity didn't come here as a result of mass immigration. There's no comparison. And its founder wasn't actually a cruel, violent or lustful man, either. Quite a different kettle of fish.
Down among yous in the southeast, Christianity was pretty much just a rehash of your own Hellenism. For us up here, it was just a rerun of the Roman Empire. Utterly different from this:
http://culturelegenocide.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/british-muslim-protest4.jpg
http://www.egge.net/~savory/islamic_protesters.jpg
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060206/060206_wp_london_protest_hmed9p.hmedium.jpg
Treffie
11-30-2009, 11:33 PM
Persia is obviously here to stay in the Middle East, there's nothing that can be done about it, Muhammad.
Islam is obviously here to stay in Iberia, there's nothing that can be done about it, el Cid.
Rome is obviously here to stay in Germania, there's nothing that can be done about it, Arminius.
Russia is obviously here to stay in Finland, there's nothing that can be done about it, Mannerheim.
Britain is obviously here to stay in India, there's nothing that can be done about it, Ghandi.
White rule is obviously here to stay in Zimbabwe, there's nothing that can be done about it, Mugabe.
Britain is obviously here to stay in America, there's nothing that can be done about it, Washington.
Assyria is obviously here to stay in Israel, there's nothing that can be done about it, Hebrews.
Byzantium is obviously here to stay in Anatolia, there's nothing that can be done about it, Sultan.
History knows no constants. 'Never' is not in her vocabulary.
Hmmm, all these civilisations/nations have left a huge legacy on these lands. I wonder how many Americans have British ancestry etc
I've been wanting to say this for a long time but `resistance is futile`. All we can do is stem the immigration of Muslims into Europe, we can't send the 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation Muslims back. We can not preserve Europe, in the same way that civilisations such as Sumer etc could not be preserved.
It's an open question and you're probably right. But that doesn't mean we should lie down and take it. Resistance is not something that is unfamiliar in history. If we do not like something, we should oppose it. And I don't like it.
So, couldn't we have said the same thing about Christianity 2,000 years ago?
Yes we could have. There is a huge difference though: 2,000 years ago, the native people adopted Christianity (either via coercion or conversion). This time around, Islam is almost exclusively the preserve of immigrants from certain parts of the world. The native people have not accepted it, and they are very unlikely to do so, since its values are very outdated and by European standards primitive.
Anthropos
11-30-2009, 11:38 PM
The problem with Islam can be very succintly illustrated by its dogmatic division of the world in two camps: Dar al-Islam (House of Islam) and Dar al-Harb (House of War).
Islam is pretty laidback compared to some parts of Christianity when it comes to proselytising. Orthodox Christianity does admittedly not proselytise very much, and I like the approach that Orthodoxy takes. Catholicism proselytises rather aggressively though, and so do the Protestant churches. There are so called Islamists that are more aggressive than Islam generally, but quite often they are not supported by the government where they operate. Islamists in Egypt, for example, are not supported by the government. Christians there (Copts) are persecuted by Islamists, and this is a big problem even if there's no sign that Christians are giving up, but the government does not support it.
To blame Islam in Europe on some doctrine of Islam is pretty funny, I must say, since the question, as I have already argued, is in the hands of European governments! So this is really just a poor excuse, in my opinion. It's time to blame those at home, and to scrutinise our own part, instead of playing the victim of Islam.
And of course, Islam would be no problem if it wasn't for mass immigration, so this whole focus is actually rather fishy. For as long as mass immigration is not arrested first, it is only logical to be sceptical against the anti-Islamisation movement, especially since it has ties with Western imperialism. Western imperialism does also divide the world, engaging in war, and it does so arguable much more than Islam.
Absinthe
11-30-2009, 11:39 PM
And its founder wasn't actually a cruel, violent or lustful man, either.
What? Do you feel no pity for me, being sick as I am, and want to force me into digging up forces about the bloodshed against the "pagans" and destruction of monuments, texts and temples, that was conducted by the early Christians during the spread of Christianity?
One famous example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia_of_Alexandria) comes to mind. :wink
As for the founder... I am pretty sure Mohammed is not portrayed as a cruel, violent, and lustful man either. But his followers are.
Falkata
11-30-2009, 11:39 PM
http://culturelegenocide.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/british-muslim-protest4.jpg
http://www.egge.net/~savory/islamic_protesters.jpg
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060206/060206_wp_london_protest_hmed9p.hmedium.jpg
This was in England?? :eek:
And the police allowed something like that?
Loddfafner
11-30-2009, 11:44 PM
We, Enlightened Europeans, have made some progress in reining in the more idiotic strands of Christianity. Even the Irish have finally stood up to their bloodless priests' predation on schoolchildren. Even Americans have kept Creationists in check. The very least normal run of the mill Muslims can do is rein in the Islamists.
Hrolf Kraki
11-30-2009, 11:44 PM
This was in England?? :eek:
And the police allowed something like that?
Muslim is just about tantamount to diplomatic immunity these days...
Treffie
12-01-2009, 12:45 AM
When I saw the minarets of Mostar, I though they were really cool, despite their, um, emasculation (or was it cirumcision?) by Croatian shells. From my rickety bus I thought I had found the border to the Middle East. I caught a glimpse of exotic Turkey without actually flying a hijackable plane. Bearded men tried to sell old metal junk around the ruins of the old bridge as if it were a bizarre Ottoman bazaar. I ate roasted Serb (or maybe it was just a Serbian roast) and admired the shell marks on absolutely every surface.
There are minarets in America, but in our glorious cacophony they are lost and meaningless.
Minarets in Switzerland? Minarets in the Netherlands under Cerny's floodwater? No. They spoil the effect of Mostar. Islam is an exotic other that should stay over there. Despite Edward Saïd, I refuse to renounce the pleasures of Orientalism but for them to work, there must be a border.
.
Judging by some of the buildings in Mostar, I would say that some churches and mosques don't look substantially different
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Mostar_Kath_v_S1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Mehmed_Koski_pa%C5%A1ina_d%C5%BEamija%2C_Mostar.jp g
Electronic God-Man
12-01-2009, 01:06 AM
Capitulation is the easy way out, but we should always resist. Why not? At least as a matter of principle. We may not be able to make any difference ourselves, but we owe it to our ancestors' memories to try the best we can. Islam does not belong in Europe, and we should fight tooth and nail to halt the spread of this parasitic infection.
Yes. I hope I am not butchering the Heathen sagas, but I always loved that the Norsemen fought on and lived their lives in the way that they saw fit and good even though they knew Ragnarok was inevitable.
There is a great sense of honor in it.
Psychonaut
12-01-2009, 02:36 AM
Yes. I hope I am not butchering the Heathen sagas, but I always loved that the Norsemen fought on and lived their lives in the way that they saw fit and good even though they knew Ragnarok was inevitable.
There is a great sense of honor in it.
Aye. It's the very fighting of that against which there is no hope that was the veritable fountainhead of our ancestors' conception of heroism.
The Lawspeaker
12-01-2009, 02:52 AM
In Elsevier (a Dutch newspaper) appeared a rather disgusting and treasonous remark from Guusje ter Horst, the Minister of Domestic Affairs about the Swiss minaret-ban,: "I am very glad that this country had no binding referendum."
So she is very glad that it can't happen in the Netherlands because we are no real democracy.
I begin to wonder: why is it that politicians now get away with anti-democratic, anti-Dutch remarks ? 10 years ago she would have been flayed !
Taken from another Dutch newspaper (http://www.bndestem.nl/algemeen/binnenland/5881847/Ter-Horst-minarettenverbod-zeer-bedroevend.ece) (translated from Dutch):
Ter Horst: Minaret-ban very saddening
Brussels (ANP)- Minister Guusje ter Horst of Domestic Affairs finds it to be "saddening" that the Swiss population has voted in a referendum against the construction of new minarets. "I hope that this will never happen in the Netherlands. I am very glad that we don't have binding referendums" according to Ter Horst on Monday when she met her EU-colleagues in Brussels.
Ter Horst who stated that her opinions are shared by Ernst Hirsch Ballin of Justice, thinks that the Swiss population confuses religion with terrorist assaults and other forms of aggression. She also noted that the Swiss government, that informed the EU on Monday will reject the outcome of this referendum. "There seems to be a difference between what the people wants and what the government wants".
Falkata
12-01-2009, 03:13 AM
In Elsevier (a Dutch newspaper) appeared a rather disgusting and treasonous remark from Guusje ter Horst, the Minister of Domestic Affairs about the Swiss minaret-ban,: "I am very glad that this country had no binding referendum."
Politicians are corrupt scum in the 90% of cases (99,9% in Spain).They love to have a total control over the population, with abussive taxes in order to control large amounts of OUR money, not letting us to decide about anything... Each 4 years we send a stupid paper and we choose between 2 political parties ,"right" or "left", which are almost the same and it´s all. It´s almost impossible for the new parties to have some representation.
And they call this democracy, amazing :confused:
What argument? Christianity didn't come here as a result of mass immigration. There's no comparison. And its founder wasn't actually a cruel, violent or lustful man, either. Quite a different kettle of fish.
Down among yous in the southeast, Christianity was pretty much just a rehash of your own Hellenism. For us up here, it was just a rerun of the Roman Empire. Utterly different from this:
http://culturelegenocide.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/british-muslim-protest4.jpg
http://www.egge.net/~savory/islamic_protesters.jpg
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060206/060206_wp_london_protest_hmed9p.hmedium.jpg
Why am I having the strange feeling that these pictures were, well, staged? :confused: Is anyone this blatantly confrontational? Those stupid quotes on the signs are completely generic and canned if you ask me, like someone pulled them out of a playbook. It's really like, oh I don't know, these mooks were put up to it by someone...
http://www.catsandbeer.com/uploads/2007/11/nwo1en.jpg
"Hey yo! Masons? Who's a mason?"
Hrolf Kraki
12-01-2009, 05:08 AM
Ter Horst who stated that her opinions are shared by Ernst Hirsch Ballin of Justice, thinks that the Swiss population confuses religion with terrorist assaults and other forms of aggression. She also noted that the Swiss government, that informed the EU on Monday will reject the outcome of this referendum. "There seems to be a difference between what the people wants and what the government wants".[/FONT]
No, I think the Swiss people want a Swiss skyline, and not an Islamic one. The gall these Muslims have to criticize us and stamp their feet in anger when they don't their way! They stone women for adultery!! Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!
And yes there is a difference between what the people want and what the government wants. The government wishes to fold in the face of Muslim invaders, whilst the people wish to stand firm. I think they're entitled to run their nation how they see fit. Muslims certainly do!!
Islam is obviously here to stay in Europe, there's nothing that can be done about it, Osweo.
I call that absolutely disgusting multicultist propaganda. Its supposedly both wonderful and desireable, inevitable, "you cannot do anything about it" and "just learn to TOLERATE".
Tolerate is an act wherein you look the other way when seeing something that is wrong, such as pedophilia in the family, neighbour whipping a dog to death or hoodlums robbing old ladies.
Cowardism, total lack of moral spine is another way to look at it.
Ofcourse they can be deported, ofcourse they will resist, and this is where the blackjacks, waterhoses and teargas plays its part rounding them up, cuffing and loading the tens of millions onto banana boats to whatever homeland has been chosen for them.
Treffie
12-01-2009, 08:26 AM
I call that absolutely disgusting multicultist propaganda. Its supposedly both wonderful and desireable, inevitable, "you cannot do anything about it" and "just learn to TOLERATE".
Tolerate is an act wherein you look the other way when seeing something that is wrong, such as pedophilia in the family, neighbour whipping a dog to death or hoodlums robbing old ladies.
Cowardism, total lack of moral spine is another way to look at it.
In reality, there's not much we can do about it, let's be honest. I dislike the way that our towns and cities have been ghettoised by Muslim immigrants too, but they were allowed to come here. Muslims are innocent pawns in a much larger game played by our Govts.
Ofcourse they can be deported, ofcourse they will resist, and this is where the blackjacks, waterhoses and teargas plays its part rounding them up, cuffing and loading the tens of millions onto banana boats to whatever homeland has been chosen for them.
And do you suggest a system to measure who will and who will not be deported, or shall we make a sweeping judgement and send them all back - even to a place where they weren't born?
I agree that we should deport the criminal element who weren't born here, but how within international law can deport all of them?
Monolith
12-01-2009, 08:40 AM
Judging by some of the buildings in Mostar, I would say that some churches and mosques don't look substantially different
Umm, the first one looks like a church, while the second one looks like a mosque. :confused:
In reality, there's not much we can do about it, let's be honest. I dislike the way that our towns and cities have been ghettoised by Muslim immigrants too, but they were allowed to come here. Muslims are innocent pawns in a much larger game played by our Govts.
And by what right are they to be fed and housed and their bottoms cleaned for the rest of their lives living off welfare? The state is a organisation that looks after the wellbeing of its members, the national ethnic.
Others are simply of no concern.
Innocence is no argument. Im sure newly born chickens are innocent too, and yet the males are massacred simply for being males.
Furthermore their continued presence simply isn't desred, and that should be all that counts.
And do you suggest a system to measure who will and who will not be deported, or shall we make a sweeping judgement and send them all back - even to a place where they weren't born?
I agree that we should deport the criminal element who weren't born here, but how within international law can deport all of them?
Kitten born in a stable are not horses, and no repetition of that will change the fact. Thus the whole "born" issue is entirely irrelevant.
Their parents werent born here either, and yet they somehow could move here. Thus it matters not if those kids halfbreed or otherwise weren't born in africa/asia.. they will be sent there anyway... or possibly disposed of by other means.
International law can hop to hell.
Either they willingly go, someone else takes them... and if noone is willing to take the excess trash... then i sure hope noone finds the utter hypocracy of complaining when the unwanted trash is treated as such.
In the meantime army guarded camps will do fine, separated by gender and sterilised.. waiting for somewhere to be shipped to.
Treffie
12-01-2009, 09:11 AM
Umm, the first one looks like a church, while the second one looks like a mosque. :confused:
To the ignorant like myself, the church doesn't look substantially different from that of a mosque. Obviously the dome on the mosque gives it away, but from a skyline aspect both have phallus rising skywards.
Treffie
12-01-2009, 09:17 AM
And by what right are they to be fed and housed and their bottoms cleaned for the rest of their lives living off welfare?
Yes, I agree
The state is a organisation that looks after the wellbeing of its members, the national ethnic
Others are simply of no concern.
Define national ethnic
Furthermore their continued presence simply isn't desred, and that should be all that counts.
Neither are native criminals. Where do we send them?
Kitten born in a stable are not horses, and no repetition of that will change the fact. Thus the whole "born" issue is entirely irrelevant.
Their parents werent born here either, and yet they somehow could move here. Thus it matters not if those kids halfbreed or otherwise weren't born in africa/asia.. they will be sent there anyway... or possibly disposed of by other means.
International law can hop to hell.
Either they willingly go, someone else takes them... and if noone is willing to take the excess trash... then i sure hope noone finds the utter hypocracy of complaining when the unwanted trash is treated as such.
In the meantime army guarded camps will do fine, separated by gender and sterilised.. waiting for somewhere to be shipped to.
Is this 1940's Europe? Now please, get off that cloud.
Not all that can be done anytime soon, its a longterm plan tho, starting by attitude and oppinion changing in the masspopulation thru alternative media. Followed by parliamentarian takeover... muncipal to state... legal limitations.. stopping massimmigration in the first place... deportations after that.
That is sometimes around 2030 the deportations could be in full swing.
Some have already progressed on that goal, others have gone nowhere. UK, well.. considering i stopped consider that place a part of the west since 3 years back... yeah, im sure its all a weird unrealistic eutopia.
In the meantime eu is busy saving democracy by banning voting... setting up unelected unaccountable oligarks and creating a hive policy.
No doubt having flasbacks of how wonderful everything was in the 30s ruling over the empire of india as wellpaid goverment officials and everyopne was living in perfect harmony...
Except that this time everyone will be equal... but how exactly theylll manage to keep themselves from the proverbial gutters of bombay is unresolved. But that is where its headed.
Take 30 years, and 60% of the britons will be homeless beggars living in shantytowns of plastic, cardboard and corrugated plate if lucky. Eating garbage and scrounging in what little wild still exists.
That is the future of multiculture, either that or deportations.
...plenty of work to be done..
Liffrea
12-01-2009, 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Arawn
Islam is obviously here to stay in Europe, there's nothing that can be done about it
Islam to some degree has had a presence in Europe since the 8th century.
In the 1920’s there were several mosques in the UK.
There have been varying numbers of non-whites living in Britain since (at least) Elizabethan times consistently.
I think we need to understand that we are not debating just the extent of a religion we are discussing fundamental (and unprecedented) changes in the racial demographics of several states in Europe. Islam isn’t growing in Europe because of a tide of whites bowing down to Allah, it’s growing because of the uncontrolled immigration/colonisation of this country, amongst others, by Muslims and the fact that they breed more than we do.
That’s the reality of it.
Personally I have never seen much in the way of proof that the British, French, Dutch, Swedes etc want their society to become predominantly non-white and Muslim, perhaps someone can show me where this wish amongst the majority of the public has been suggested?
This isn’t about towers outside of Mosques or the right of people to worship one god or another it’s about the very future existence of our nation, our people, our culture, our way of life.
This debate starts now whilst reason and temper are still in play, I don't need to suggest the alternative.
Vulpix
12-01-2009, 03:03 PM
Now Italy may follow Switzerland with referendum on Islamic minarets (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1232337/Now-Italy-follow-Switzerland-referendum-minarets-Cabinet-minister-calls-country-assert-Catholic-roots.html)
^
http://sunshinereviewblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/git-r-done.jpg
Eldritch
12-01-2009, 03:30 PM
Now Italy may follow Switzerland with referendum on Islamic minarets (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1232337/Now-Italy-follow-Switzerland-referendum-minarets-Cabinet-minister-calls-country-assert-Catholic-roots.html)
Well, I would think that crucifixes are much more a part of religious life in Italy than minarets, and if they've been banned from schools, well ....
Electronic God-Man
12-01-2009, 04:37 PM
Now Italy may follow Switzerland with referendum on Islamic minarets (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1232337/Now-Italy-follow-Switzerland-referendum-minarets-Cabinet-minister-calls-country-assert-Catholic-roots.html)
Switzerland says to Italy: Se avanzo, seguitemi!
Electronic God-Man
12-01-2009, 07:34 PM
I saw now that Geert Wilders' party in the Netherlands and Vlaams Belang in Belgium are also looking to copy the Swiss Minaret-Ban.
Amapola
12-01-2009, 07:46 PM
Politicians are corrupt scum in the 90% of cases (99,9% in Spain).They love to have a total control over the population, with abussive taxes in order to control large amounts of OUR money, not letting us to decide about anything... Each 4 years we send a stupid paper and we choose between 2 political parties ,"right" or "left", which are almost the same and it´s all. It´s almost impossible for the new parties to have some representation.
And they call this democracy, amazing :confused:
I call it "5 minute democracy"
Brynhild
12-01-2009, 07:57 PM
For a woman:
Today they would enforce the building of mosques and minarets, tomorrow it's burkhas and submission. If I go down to defend my rights, at least I'll go down fighting.
Osweo
12-01-2009, 10:00 PM
I call it "5 minute democracy"
It's what is needed, aye. :thumb001:
But there aren't many 50,000 pounds a year (+...) JOBS that such a system can produce, so don't expect it to be proposed by any of the current parasites we flatter with the term 'politician'.... :mad:
Islam is pretty laidback compared to some parts of Christianity when it comes to proselytising.
Um... Conversion or ritual humiliation and theft anyone? Jizya, I believe they call it... :(
Orthodox Christianity does admittedly not proselytise very much, and I like the approach that Orthodoxy takes.
It is very interesting, yes. I read some religious texts by the present day theologian Deacon Andrei Kuryaev (Диакон Андрей Куряев - Kuryayev, Kurjajew, Kurjaev...:p), where he describes how Orthodoxy waits until a person feels he needs it, or something like that. You should look up his books, they may have been translated. He's high profile, always giving seminars to students and speaking on telly in Russia.
There are so called Islamists that are more aggressive than Islam generally, but quite often they are not supported by the government where they operate. Islamists in Egypt, for example, are not supported by the government. Christians there (Copts) are persecuted by Islamists, and this is a big problem even if there's no sign that Christians are giving up, but the government does not support it.
My sister lived a year in Cairo and has Egyptian friends. Apparently, the state can happily turn a blind eye to desecration of Coptic cemetaries on occasion, if it feels the muslim populace need to vent on some matter... :(
FAR more importantly, Islam's most prestigious state, that which holds its most sacred shrine, is a well known supporter of the very worst kinds of 'extremism'. They work in Bosnia, Russia, Pakistan and China to stir unrest, AND England. Our great 'allies' no less! Our governments are hard at work toppling what remain of your 'normal muslim states'. :(
To blame Islam in Europe on some doctrine of Islam is pretty funny, I must say, since the question, as I have already argued, is in the hands of European governments! So this is really just a poor excuse, in my opinion. It's time to blame those at home, and to scrutinise our own part, instead of playing the victim of Islam.
Oh, I blame them, don't get me wrong, but Islam is a VERY willing accomplice in this affair. And it may topple its would-be controller in the end, after having been underestimated.
And of course, Islam would be no problem if it wasn't for mass immigration, so this whole focus is actually rather fishy. For as long as mass immigration is not arrested first, it is only logical to be sceptical against the anti-Islamisation movement, especially since it has ties with Western imperialism. Western imperialism does also divide the world, engaging in war, and it does so arguable much more than Islam.
I was anti-Islam long before I ever heard official statements on it, or terrorism had risen to its present levels. And I was so because I met Muslims and heard what they had to say, and saw how their religion helped them take over entire neighbourhoods.
What? Do you feel no pity for me, being sick as I am, and want to force me into digging up forces about the bloodshed against the "pagans" and destruction of monuments, texts and temples, that was conducted by the early Christians during the spread of Christianity?
One famous example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia_of_Alexandria) comes to mind. :wink
Oh I know... Oyster shells, wasn't it? :( But I'm sure most or many of the perpetrators were fellow Greeks. Rather an internal matter.
As for the founder... I am pretty sure Mohammed is not portrayed as a cruel, violent, and lustful man either. But his followers are.
He is, in the most sacred traditions his followers preserve of him. He rode about killing people, breaking holy truces, torturing people to death, taking the wives and daughters of the killed to fill his harem. Quite a different character than the Nazarene. The latter had plenty of dangerous ideas, of course, and some downright disgusting (Who is my mother, who my father? Or whatever he said, dismissing the most elemental of human bonds), but his actions were innocent enough.
This was in England?? :eek:
And the police allowed something like that?
The Police see their duty to protect such demonstrations from the anger of our people.
Why am I having the strange feeling that these pictures were, well, staged? :confused: Is anyone this blatantly confrontational? Those stupid quotes on the signs are completely generic and canned if you ask me, like someone pulled them out of a playbook. It's really like, oh I don't know, these mooks were put up to it by someone...
Cynicism is healthy, of course, but they ARE like that at times, you know.
Muslims are innocent pawns in a much larger game played by our Govts.
Innocent pawns don't plant bombs in crowded public transport. :(
The drug dealer working for the gangster boss is a pawn, but still fully responsible for the considerable damage he does.
Liffrea
12-01-2009, 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by Osweo
Innocent pawns don't plant bombs in crowded public transport.
Put two pit bulls in a ring and we know the result…..
The presence of non-whites in general in European states has been good business for……well certain business “interests”, on tap cheap labour, low wage costs, it’s also been good for politicians who want the state to be more in control, divide and rule oldest political tool in the box, of course business and politics usually do end up in the same bed…
Our grandfathers wouldn’t have sat by and let half the things go on that bankers, politicians and the like get away with day in day out, add a few “volatile” ingredients to the mix and everyone’s to busy snarling across the divide to take notice of the men sitting in the shadows laughing their asses off.
Am I being callous enough, insane enough, to suggest politicians and business “interests” play with people’s lives, put people’s lives in danger for their own gain and profit? Damn strait I am, we mean nothing to them beyond the next £. The scum bags who blow up innocents for some nonsensical belief are the lowest form of filth but let’s not forget they are useful idiots, predictable tools used by the men who left the gates open. Whose the biggest scum?
Everyone’s to busy getting worked up by some pantomime character in a bed sheet waving a hook around spouting his dribble on English streets to ask….why is the man here in the first place? Who let him in? Why do we have a problem now we didn’t have sixty years ago?
I’m no fan of immigration but I’m more than aware that the real threat to my folk come from people who look like me and speak my tongue.
Hrolf Kraki
12-02-2009, 06:06 AM
I think it's pascifist fear that keeps governments bowing to Muslim demands. They'd rather act naïve to the situation and appease them just so they don't have to face the problem head on. Ever since WWII no one wants to address immigrant problems in Europe it seems. It's as if they believe that if they don't give in to every immigrant's cultural whim, they'll be labeled nazis who hate non-Europeans. Ridiculous! The absolute nicest and fairest thing to possibly be expected to do is to accept asylumn seekers just as long as they integrate into our society. Europe doesn't owe anyone a damn thing, so asylumn seekers ought to thank Europeans for their hospitality rather than throw it in their faces. Next time they call for Sharia Law, point out to them how well that's worked out for them so far. Their nations have become shit holes controlled by fear, violence and barbarism. But now many Muslims enjoy living in Europe, a continent comprised most of the nations with the highest standards of living. They live in comfort because of the blood, sweat and tears of our fore-fathers (most of mine) and then dishonour their memory by spitting on our laws and customs. Disgraceful!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.