KÖNIGSBERG (AKA KALININGRAD) UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW: RUSSIAN, GERMAN, LITHUANIAN, OR SIMPLY...

[Aunt Hilda]

What would happen to Kaliningrad if the status quo were to be no longer a viable option?


Although the Kaliningrad Region is currently administered by Russia, it is not a legal part of Russia.

On February 11, 1945, at the Crimea (Yalta) Conference, the Big Three agreed on the Curzon Line as the boundary between Poland and the USSR. However, the archival material clearly shows that there had not been any legally binding agreement made between the allies about the transfer of the Königsberg Region to the Soviet Union at any of the Second World War conferences. This is why Stalin attempted to secure his gains at the Potsdam conference in Berlin, which took place from July 17 to August 2, 1945.

there are 3 possible solutions in the case Kaliningrad were to leave the Russian federation.






The German Claim: Some Germans challenge the validity of both the Final Settlement and the original “dismemberment” of the German Reich.

Their arguments are complex but can be reduced in essence to two claims:

the Allies had no power to allow German territory to be annexed by other countries
the West Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany) and even the modern Federal Republic of Germany are not coextensive with the German Reich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Reich) and are therefore not competent to speak for it in its entirety

The first proposition is supported by numerous charges: that the guarantees of self-determination in the Atlantic Charter, the UN Charter, and the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties were ignored; that the Ancient Roman principle of ex injuria non oritur jus prohibits punishing Germany by unilateral confiscation of its territory; that the powers of the Allies as occupiers were strictly curtailed by the Hague Laws of War of 1907; that use of German lands as “compensation” to Poland for lands lost to the Soviet Union has no basis in international law; and many others.





Lithuanian Claim: The claim of the Lithuanian state could rely upon both ethnic and historical grounds.



The Lithuanians may argue that
the first peoples to hold sovereignty over the region were ethnic Lithuaniansand closely related Old Prussians, and
the pre-1945 population outside the cities of the Oblast was largely of Lithuanian origin. If the status of the Oblast were to be altered in the future, then, the Lithuanian state could have a strong argument for assimilating this remainder of Lithuania Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania_Minor).

The idea of unifying the Oblast with the rest of Lithuania has strong historical precedents. Lithuanian assemblies met in Chicago and New York in 1914, The Hague in 1916 and Berne in 1917 to demand an independent Lithuania including all of Lithuania Minor. An assembly in Vilnius in 1917 restated the problem to define the new Lithuania within its “ethnographic borders,” a concept endorsed by a later assembly in Voronezh the same year.



The Claim of the Native Population: The right to national self-determination is one of the main cornerstones of the contemporary international legal order. Eight of Wilson’s Fourteen Points refer to such concerns. The Atlantic Charter’s third and fourth principles call for self-determination in matters of both boundaries and choice of government. The Charter of the United Nations calls for colonial powers to foster self-determination in “non-self governing territories”. That right might be interpreted as concerning:



The Oblast’s postwar ethnic Russian settlers – as opposed to central Soviet or Russian authorities.
the traditional population which was decimated or expelled en masseafter World War II, which is defended on the grounds that forcible deportations of native populations is clearly in violation of international law – native Königsbergers expelled after World War II, then, have a right under international law to choose to return to their native land.
So I ask you, which option would you support in such a scenario?




Support modern Kaliningraders in their demands of greater autonomy within the Russian Federation – and maybe a future separation from it -, which is the fairest position under modern international law, which demands non-belligerant positions (against Russia in this case) and respect for human rights – Russian settlers and their families. This is certainly the option of most Kaliningraders of Russian ethnicity, as well as most EU-politicians.


Support Germany’s or Lithuania’s claims (or both), seeking to integrate Kaliningrad within the European Union, maybe as a sort of a Baltic territory co-administered by both Germany and Lithuania, financing the return of (families of) expellees to Königsberg, and the return of (willing) families of Russian settlers to Russia. This is the option preferred by many Germans and (I guess) most Lithuanians.


Support the creation of a modern Baltic Prussian State (Prusa), which could help unite the Pro-Baltic (and Pro-European) attitude of Russian Kaliningraders, the will of native peoples and their families to return to East Prussia, as well as claims of EU member states to integrate Königsberg in Europe, by embracing Old Prussian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians) history of the territory and its peoples. Modern organizations supporting the revival of the Old Prussian language would probably support its revitalization in Königsberg include the future Research Institute of Prussology (http://donelaitis.vdu.lt/prussian/index.htm) and the Prussian language organization in Poland (http://prusa.strefa.pl/).


http://carlosquiles.com/indo-european-languages/2009/02/konigsberg-aka-kaliningrad-under-international-law-russian-german-polish-lithuanian-or-simply-prussian/

[Methmatician]

It would be interesting to see the Kaliningrad oblast as an independent country. I wonder what it would be called. Prussia?

[Aunt Hilda]

poll added.

[Aunt Hilda]

It would be interesting to see the Kaliningrad oblast as an independent country. I wonder what it would be called. Prussia?
the creation of Prusa would be the most interesting option.

[Methmatician]

the creation of Prusa would be the most interesting option.
Jesus fucking Chroist, your avatar gave me a run up the arse.

[Hochmeister]

Let it stay Russian, but they'd better rename it to Königsberg and East-Prussian oblast/kray or Baltic oblast/kray.

[Aunt Hilda]

Let it stay Russian, but they'd better rename it to Königsberg and East-Prussian oblast/kray or Baltic oblast/kray.
I don't think they should stop with Königsberg. the Russian federation changed most toponyms.
They should be changed back.

[Windischer]

it was founded by crusaders led by otakar II. přemysl, so the proper name is královec.
koenigsberg is a wrong translation and kaliningrad can go to hell.

[Aunt Hilda]

another russia bashing thread from you. You ask such a question but dont give the option to stay russian territory, all the 3 option lead to separation from russia.
it's a ''what if'' kind of thread.
mentioning the fact that the russian federation, under international law, does not actually have a right to govern Kaliningad is not bashing Russia, it's a fact.

[Not a Cop]

it's a ''what if'' kind of thread.
mentioning the fact that the russian federation, under international law, does not actually have a right to govern Kaliningad is not bashing Russia, it's a fact.

Having right to govern is based on one thing:

Having enough power to secure the land from foregin or internal enemies.


While i have'nt seen any of foregin power willing to take Kaliningrad back, neither the population shows great will to separate from Russia, although there were some incidents.

The only way it may change is a destabilisation of Russia, due to internal problems in mainland of the country.

[Aunt Hilda]

Having right to govern is based on one thing:

Having enough power to secure the land from foregin or internal enemies.


While i have'nt seen any of foregin power willing to take Kaliningrad back, neither the population shows great will to separate from Russia, although there were some incidents.

The only way it may change is a destabilisation of Russia, due to internal problems in mainland of the country.
I repeat, It's a ''what if'' topic, not an actual plan to rip precious kaliningrad from Russian hands. :rolleyes:


p.s. having a right to govern has a basis in international law.

[glass]

where is option it should remain as it now, one of regions of Russia
Migla is so Migla :picard2:

[Aunt Hilda]

where is option it should remain as it now, one of regions of Russia
it's not there because this topic is not about the status quo :picard2:

[DeaththeKid]

If Russia annexes Belarus then Kaliningrad would not be too far way. Also no other country would want it because it is completely ethnically Russian now.

[Loki]

It would be interesting to see the Kaliningrad oblast as an independent country. I wonder what it would be called. Prussia?

It's not economically viable as an independent country.

[Not a Cop]

I repeat, It's a ''what if'' topic, not an actual plan to rip precious kaliningrad from Russian hands. :rolleyes:


p.s. having a right to govern has a basis in international law.


Well, international law is a funny thing, but not really working.

On "what if" topic if we will imagine the destabilisation of Russia then it's pretty obvious that only Germany have enough political power to separate Kalinigrad, although it's the question if they want it.

[Loki]

it's not there because this topic is not about the status quo :picard2:

For completeness you should add that option.

[Aunt Hilda]

On "what if" topic if we will imagine the destabilisation of Russia then it's pretty obvious that only Germany have enough political power to separate Kalinigrad, although it's the question if they want it.
I doubt any German would take it, the absorption of east Germany was difficult enough.

[Loki]

I doubt any German would take it, the absorption of east Germany was difficult enough.

If they are smart they would take it.

[Not a Cop]

I doubt any German would take it, the absorption of east Germany was difficult enough.

East Germany is a huge territory, while Kallinigradskaya oblast have population of a bit less than one million, so economically it would'nt hurt much, although East-germans were'nt much different from West germans, while 90+ Russian Kalliningrad's populatiom is surely very different from Germans.

[Aunt Hilda]

If they are smart they would take it.
smart or not, it's a giant investment, I only like the idea because my family is from there. I doubt many germans would have such nostalgic memories as I do if they were to see the bill.

[Aunt Hilda]

East Germany is a huge territory, while Kallinigradskaya oblast have population of a bit less than one million, so economically it would'nt hurt much, although East-germans were'nt much different from West germans, while 90+ Russian Kalliningrad's populatiom is surely very different from Germans.
That a big concern as well. does Germany really need a territory that would probably be quite disloyal?

[Not a Cop]

That a big concern as well. does Germany really need a territory that would probably be quite disloyal?

Loyality will mostly depend on the fact of how much will standard of living grow.

[Aunt Hilda]

Loyality will mostly depend on the fact of how much will standard of living grow.
and considering that east Germany is worse off that Poland, I doubt it they'll be loyal.

[Loki]

smart or not, it's a giant investment, I only like the idea because my family is from there. I doubt many germans would have such nostalgic memories as I do if they were to see the bill.

This is not like East Germany. It's much smaller. Plus, it would give Germany (at last) the chance to expand further. It's definitely an investment for the future. Germany is overpopulated - it could create many job opportunities for Germans there.

[Aunt Hilda]

This is not like East Germany. It's much smaller. Plus, it would give Germany (at last) the chance to expand further. It's definitely an investment for the future. Germany is overpopulated - it could create many job opportunities for Germans there.
germany is overpopulated? they gave some of the lowest birth-rates in europe.

[Loki]

germany is overpopulated? they gave some of the lowest birth-rates in europe.

Yes it is - especially the Ruhrgebiet.

[Aunt Hilda]

It will never happen. No one would want to emigrate to a such poor place + most East Prussians are already assimilated in Germany and Lithuania. At least their descendants. Let's be realistic.
it's the least likely option, but the most interesting one.

Yes it is - especially the Ruhrgebiet.
what about the contemporary Kaliningradians? I doubt many of them would leave willingly.

[Loki]

All this speculation is futile, though. Russia wouldn't give up Kaliningrad because it's strategically important - especially in light of increased aggression and encirclement of NATO.

If Putin is smart he would invest in Kaliningrad as he did in Chechnya.

[Loki]

what about the contemporary Kaliningradians? I doubt many of them would leave willingly.

They don't have to leave. The area is sparsely populated.

[Hochmeister]

at the Crimea (Yalta) Conference, the Big Three agreed on the Curzon Line as the boundary between Poland and the USSR. However, the archival material clearly shows that there had not been any legally binding agreement made between the allies about the transfer of the Königsberg Region to the Soviet Union at any of the Second World War conferences.

So they agreed on the Yalta conference, why would they need other conferences?

What's more you forgot about the Helsinki Accords:

"...The Helsinki Accords ... was the final act of the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe ... August 1, 1975. Thirty-five States, including the USA, Canada, and most European states except Albania and Andorra, signed the declaration in an attempt to improve relations between the Communist bloc and the West ... The Accords' ... enumerated the following 10 points:
...
Inviolability of frontiers
Territorial integrity of States."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsinki_Accords

^ And the USA with Europe (except Albania) signed it. So only Albania has a legal "opportunity" to claim "rights" on Königsberg :D

As a result all the new frontiers after 1991 can be debatable. :D

[RussiaPrussia]

it's a ''what if'' kind of thread.
mentioning the fact that the russian federation, under international law, does not actually have a right to govern Kaliningad is not bashing Russia, it's a fact.

under international law your EU shouldnt exist

[Unome]

The Rzeczpospolita should become reestablished and Prussia restored with aboriginal Balto-Slavs.

[Hercus Monte]

The Rzeczpospolita should become reestablished and Prussia restored with aboriginal Balto-Slavs.
over our cold dead bodies.

[Unome]

over our cold dead bodies.
You cannot stop the future.

[Hercus Monte]

You cannot stop the future.
Rzeczpospolita is not the future. :rolleyes:

[Unome]

Rzeczpospolita is not the future. :rolleyes:
Prussia is the future; Lithuanians have no voice in this.

[Windischer]

yes and martians will rule all

[Peikko]

So how many non-Russians are there living in Kaliningrad?

[Gaston]

The city of Königsberg to Germany and all the rest of the oblast to Lithuania.

[Aunt Hilda]

So how many non-Russians are there living in Kaliningrad?
not more that 5%.

the original Königsberg would have been a heavy mix of Germans and Lithuanians.

[Peikko]

not more that 5%.

the original Königsberg would have been a heavy mix of Germans and Lithuanians.
So in the end, who would benefit from those options 2 and 3 in the poll? Would anyone actually move back?

[Hercus Monte]

Prussia is the future; Lithuanians have no voice in this.
I doubt it. Germany would only take action(we would follow suit, of course) if Russia tried to destabilize the region even more than it already has.

[Aunt Hilda]

So in the end, who would benefit from those options 2 and 3 in the poll? Would anyone actually move back?
Option 2 completely depends on the financing of the project.
option 3 basically there to give kaliningrad more autonomy. Like no-visa zone with Poland.

[Unome]

I doubt it. Germany would only take action(we would follow suit, of course) if Russia tried to destabilize the region even more than it already has.
Germans and Lithuanians never originally belonged in the area.

[Mehmet]

It should belong to Germany.

The people living there should be deported (or perhaps more).

[Hercus Monte]

Germans and Lithuanians never originally belonged in the area.
a fair share of those Germans and Lithuanians were language shifters themselves.

[Hochmeister]

So how many non-Russians are there living in Kaliningrad?

A lot of Russian Germans from the Former Soviet Union try to move there, at least those from Kazakhstan etc.

[Hercus Monte]

If Kaliningrad joins a country that is in EU, a big portion of it's inhabitants would move the richer regions within their new country or to the West. Kaliningrad currently has about one million inhabitants, Lithuania three millions. Obviously incorporated Kaliningrad would be a too big burdern economically and demographically.
nobody in their right mind would try to ethnically cleanse Kaliningrad again.
the only sensible solution to kaliningrad is to give them more autonomy, especially when it comes to traveling.

[Albion]

Give it back to Germany and encourage German settlement by slashing taxes, making it a special economic area and gateway to the Baltic and Russia and by actively imrpoving infrastructure.
There are about 1 million Russians there, that's not too much to incorporate into Germany. Russians there would have opportunities of a better life in "mainland" Germany, whilst the territory should attract at least 2 million Germans to break the Russian majority and gradually re-Germanize the region.

[Unome]

Germans/Hitler ruined glorious Prussia. They ain't getting shit. Germans don't deserve it.

Prussia goes to Poland or Russia, none else.

[Albion]

Germans/Hitler ruined glorious Prussia. They ain't getting shit. Germans don't deserve it.

Prussia goes to Poland or Russia, none else.

Um, Germans made Prussia. The unification of Germany (that was driven by Prussia) and the post-war treaties ruined Prussia. Then the Soviet Union finished it off by filling it full of Russians.
It should go to Germany or Lithuania.

[Peikko]

Um, Germans made Prussia. The unification of Germany (that was driven by Prussia) and the post-war treaties ruined Prussia. Then the Soviet Union finished it off by filling it full of Russians.
It should go to Germany or Lithuania.
But Russians made Kaliningrad, if you know what I mean :biggrin:

[Unome]

Um, Germans made Prussia.
Propaganda lies.



The unification of Germany (that was driven by Prussia) and the post-war treaties ruined Prussia. Then the Soviet Union finished it off by filling it full of Russians.
It should go to Germany or Lithuania.
No.

Austrian Hitler showed the world what Germany is all about. Austria always hated Prussia, out of jealousy.

You don't know history. Prussia was destroyed under a Austrian leader. Germans decided their fate with this choice.

[Albion]

Propaganda lies.

How is it?


No.

Austrian Hitler showed the world what Germany is all about. Austria always hated Prussia, out of jealousy.

You don't know history. Prussia was destroyed under a Austrian leader. Germans decided their fate with this choice.

Yes, Austria hated Prussia. I don't think Prussia's downfall came with the Nazis, Prussia's downfall was partially its own making - uniting north and south Germany. Cutting off East Prussia after WWI and Konigsberg to the Soviet Union after WWII is what ruined it.

[Dandelion]

They should let it rejoin Germany and let the exodus of the many Russians toward the German heartland ensue. Too bad they'd be too late for the nostalgic old people to go to their old Königsberg who are almost all dead or disabled by now.

[Unome]

You Euros are delusional; Germany is lucky to exist. How could you rationalize it to gain more territory, lest of all, Prussian land?

Germany betrayed Prussia for Austrian ruler. This is why German was destroyed. If Germans had leaned toward Prussia, instead of Austria, then the German Empire would still exist today, and would be a world superpower. But Germans betrayed Prussia. And this is the world we live in now, because of the consequences of these choices.

Germans betrayed themselves.

Austria always wanted Prussia to die, so now, why is Austria still a country but Prussia is not??? Answer it!!!

You cannot answer, because the answer is too obvious.

[morski]

Back to Germany.

[Windischer]

Královec!

[Äijä]

I happy the Germans are out of the Baltic and Russians can feel happy to have some Baltic coastline.

[Albion]

You Euros are delusional; Germany is lucky to exist. How could you rationalize it to gain more territory, lest of all, Prussian land?

Germany betrayed Prussia for Austrian ruler. This is why German was destroyed. If Germans had leaned toward Prussia, instead of Austria, then the German Empire would still exist today, and would be a world superpower. But Germans betrayed Prussia. And this is the world we live in now, because of the consequences of these choices.

Germans betrayed themselves.

Austria always wanted Prussia to die, so now, why is Austria still a country but Prussia is not??? Answer it!!!

You cannot answer, because the answer is too obvious.

Why are you so emotional about it? You think Germany must be punished, what's wrong with you, you Jewish or something? :picard1:


I happy the Germans are out of the Baltic and Russians can feel happy to have some Baltic coastline.

It has St Petersburg.

[Windischer]

Královec! Královec! Královec! Královec! Královec! Královec! Královec!
ctrl+v some more

[Unome]

Why are you so emotional about it? You think Germany must be punished, what's wrong with you, you Jewish or something? :picard1:
You are avoiding discussion and ignoring history.

[Äijä]

It has St Petersburg.

Yes but they like to have some more south, it is a fixation, they feel more secure with an outpost there.
It takes pressure of from the Balts and Finns.

And Germans are not really needed in the area, it is not their land historically, they robbed the place and now someone robbed it from them.

I am against blaming present day Germans in any way but by signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact they deserved to loose it.
That pact cost Finns Karelia, 100.000 soldiers and Baltic countries got much worse.

[Windischer]

You are avoiding discussion and ignoring history.

youre avoiding history and ignoring discussion ;)

[Hercus Monte]

Give it back to Germany and encourage German settlement by slashing taxes, making it a special economic area and gateway to the Baltic and Russia and by actively imrpoving infrastructure.
There are about 1 million Russians there, that's not too much to incorporate into Germany. Russians there would have opportunities of a better life in "mainland" Germany, whilst the territory should attract at least 2 million Germans to break the Russian majority and gradually re-Germanize the region.
re-germanize it, implies that it was very German to begin with, which is not true.

[Hochmeister]

Cutting off East Prussia after WWI

Actually it was Winston Churchill's idea: "...there must be a strong Poland" ... "East Prussia and Danzig, and possibly other areas, will ultimately be given to Poland". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder%E2%80%93Neisse_line

What's more Germany signed the Unconditional surrender to the Russians. It meant Germany legally disappeared and Russians could do whatever they wanted, so they had a right to annex the whole East Germany with Berlin, but they didn't.

"Originally, Germany was to retain Stettin, while the Poles were to annex East Prussia with Königsberg (now Kaliningrad) ... However, Stalin decided that he wanted Königsberg as a year-round warm water port for the Soviet Navy, and he argued that the Poles should receive Stettin instead". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder%E2%80%93Neisse_line

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Oder-neisse.gif

So, why to blame Russians for the British idea? If they want Königsberg to be given back, then all the current Prussian territories in Poland should be given back at first (but all this is impossible because Germany signed the Unconditional surrender).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Map-Germany-1945.svg/323px-Map-Germany-1945.svg.png

Actually back in 1758 Russia conquered East Prussia with Königsberg too, during the Seven Years' War. And all its people - including the philosopher Immanuel Kant - swore allegiance to the Russian crown. But a bit later when Tsarina Elisabeth (Peter the Great's daughter) died, the next Tsar Peter III (Karl Peter Ulrich, son of Duke of Holstein-Gottorp) gave Königsberg back to Prussia, because he was a patriot of Prussia, lol. Actually he ruled Russia only for six months and was killed by his wife - Catherine the Great.

[Hercus Monte]

What's more Germany signed the Unconditional surrender to the Russians. It meant Germany legally disappeared and Russians could do whatever they wanted, so they had a right to annex the whole East Germany with Berlin, but they didn't.

no, that doesn't mean anything of that sort.

[Äijä]

no, that doesn't mean anything of that sort.

Well it could be anything when it is unconditional, no help in reciting international law after that, this is the world we live in.

You should always be prepared to defend so that no one can just threaten you in that position.
That is the reason I protest the current Baltic defense policy, it is creating a destabilising vacuum in the area.

[glass]

You should always be prepared to defend so that no one can just threaten you in that position.
That is the reason I protest the current Baltic defense policy, it is creating a destabilising vacuum in the area.
artificial states usualy lack any strategy because they have no historical background nor longterm national interests.
so countries like nowadays baltics, belgium etc bound to fail fast to any possible "invader"

[Äijä]

artificial states usualy lack any strategy because they have no historical background nor longterm national interests.
so countries like nowadays baltics, belgium etc bound to fail fast to any possible "invader"

I would separate Estonia, they are committed to defense and are only limited by money, it is also the only one Finland could support in a conflict.
Countries leaving themselves open to pressure and invasion are freeloaders.

[glass]

I would separate Estonia, they are committed to defense and are only limited by money, it is also the only one Finland could support in a conflict.
Countries leaving themselves open to pressure and invasion are freeloaders.
how come Estonia committed to defense? Or you call those marching clowns with fake rifles defense? I think Latvia has most impressive defense, they were able preserve 1 soviet tank unlike their neighbours:D
anyway it is 21 century, wars will not be fought with front lines and thousand hundreds soldiers, we live in a world of rockets, drones and space satellites

[Hercus Monte]

You should always be prepared to defend so that no one can just threaten you in that position.
That is the reason I protest the current Baltic defense policy, it is creating a destabilising vacuum in the area.
what are you talking about? do you mean that we 3 spend about ~2% of our budget on defense?
that's more than most countries in Europe.


I would separate Estonia, they are committed to defense and are only limited by money, it is also the only one Finland could support in a conflict.
Countries leaving themselves open to pressure and invasion are freeloaders.

you need to get a reality check if you think E-stonia is more committed to defense than us.


artificial states usualy lack any strategy because they have no historical background nor longterm national interests.
so countries like nowadays baltics, belgium etc bound to fail fast to any possible "invader"
are you suggesting that russia isn't an artificial state? lol


how come Estonia committed to defense? Or you call those marching clowns with fake rifles defense? I think Latvia has most impressive defense, they were able preserve 1 soviet tank unlike their neighbours:D
anyway it is 21 century, wars will not be fought with front lines and thousand hundreds soldiers, we live in a world of rockets, drones and space satellites
why use outdated useless soviet tech, when you can get actually useful military equipment from Sweden and Denmark? (with a friendly discount, I might add)

[glass]

why use outdated useless soviet tech, when you can get actually useful military equipment from Sweden and Denmark? (with a friendly discount, I might add)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_army_equipment
well outdated equipment germans shared with you does not really look like military modern equips from Sweden or Denmark,
most likely you received some guns and gear for police and border guards, but it is not really army material, since vikings arent really known as exporters of militart equips...

[Windischer]

all states are artificial

p. s. not konigsberg but královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec

[Hercus Monte]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_army_equipment
well outdated equipment germans shared with you does not really look like military modern equips from Sweden or Denmark,
most likely you received some guns and gear for police and border guards, but it is not really army material, since vikings arent really known as exporters of militart equips...
wikipeadia is not really the best source of information. just a little tip for the future.
Sweden is doing quite well when it comes to military technology, you should read the news more often.



p. s. not konigsberg but královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec královec
wrong, It's Karaliaučius.

[Peikko]

how come Estonia committed to defense? Or you call those marching clowns with fake rifles defense? I think Latvia has most impressive defense, they were able preserve 1 soviet tank unlike their neighbours:D
anyway it is 21 century, wars will not be fought with front lines and thousand hundreds soldiers, we live in a world of rockets, drones and space satellites
Soviet tank? Please :rolleyes: Soviet tank force was considered a big threat in the West during Cold War, but Afghanistan and Chechenia have proven it a paper tiger. Soviet tanks suck, big time.

To the military discussion: If anyone in the Baltic has an outdated military, it's Finland.

[Hercus Monte]

To the military discussion: If anyone in the Baltic has an outdated military, it's Finland.
correction, almost every country bordering the baltic has outdated military technology. (including russia)
the only exemption is Sweden.

[Windischer]

wikipeadia is not really the best source of information. just a little tip for the future.
Sweden is doing quite well when it comes to military technology, you should read the news more often.


wrong, It's Karaliaučius.

founded by crusaders led by otakar II přemysl in his honor - therefore královec, not karaliaučius nor koeoeoenigsbechhhg

[Peikko]

correction, almost every country bordering the baltic has outdated military technology. (including russia)
the only exemption is Sweden.
Sweden has good technology, and giving up conscription makes their army more "modern" in some sense. They're just so safe there, who would attack Sweden, right :P ?

There's basically two options for Finland, either to have a bigger conscript army with bad equipment, or to move to professional army, with efficient task force and modern equipment. I don't have any opinion on which is better.

[Hercus Monte]

Sweden has good technology, and giving up conscription makes their army more "modern" in some sense. They're just so safe there, who would attack Sweden, right :P ?

There's basically two options for Finland, either to have a bigger conscript army with bad equipment, or to move to professional army, with efficient task force and modern equipment. I don't have any opinion on which is better.
IMO, in the age of cyber-attacks, drones, bombs, etc. conscription seems like a waste of energy and resources.

[Äijä]

Sweden has good technology, and giving up conscription makes their army more "modern" in some sense. They're just so safe there, who would attack Sweden, right :P ?

There's basically two options for Finland, either to have a bigger conscript army with bad equipment, or to move to professional army, with efficient task force and modern equipment. I don't have any opinion on which is better.

You dont have opinion because you dont know, have you even served yet?

Finland does not have worst defense in Baltic, it has one of the best, if you want to ask question fire away, but dont say things that are not true.

[Äijä]

IMO, in the age of cyber-attacks, drones, bombs, etc. conscription seems like a waste of energy and resources.

For someone that does not understand the subject, it is efficient and saves money.
Only thing against is people that dont want the trouble to do it.

[Hercus Monte]

For someone that does not understand the subject, it is efficient and saves money.

if that were true, there would be no such thing as a conscripted army in the first place :rolleyes:


Only thing against is people that dont want the trouble to do it.
or maybe they just use a different way of calculating costs.

[Peikko]

You dont have opinion because you dont know, have you even served yet?

Finland does not have worst defense in Baltic, it has one of the best, if you want to ask question fire away, but dont say things that are not true.
Have you?


For someone that does not understand the subject, it is efficient and saves money.
Only thing against is people that dont want the trouble to do it.
People mostly oppose it because of money. I wouldn't say that conscript army necessarily saves money.

[Äijä]

if that were true, there would be no such thing as a conscripted army in the first place :rolleyes:

Like Israel. :rolleyes:


or maybe they just use a different way of calculating costs.

The only cost relevant is the deterrence you get in the end.

[Äijä]

Have you?

Yes and I can answer questions if you plan to serve, like what are your strengths and interests.


People mostly oppose it because of money. I wouldn't say that conscript army necessarily saves money.

It does save, we use less than most but get more out of the money we use.

We are getting more modern every year, we are actually building a more active defense, it will start 1500km from the borders, not just sitting in a foxhole waiting.

[Hercus Monte]

Like Israel. :rolleyes:
The only cost relevant is the deterrence you get in the end.
the baltic is soo similar to the middle east :rolleyes:


The only cost relevant is the deterrence you get in the end.
hardly.

in any case, you have a lot in common with our president.
I'm sure you guys would make a lovely pair (expect that's she's probably a lesbian)

[Äijä]

the baltic is soo similar to the middle east :rolleyes:

I would say Russian are better at it than Arabs.


hardly.

You can throw rocks when Finns shoot missiles.

[Hercus Monte]

I would say Russian are better at it than Arabs.

exactly


You can throw rocks when Finns shoot missiles.
I don't understand your point.

[Unome]

Europeans always depend on alliances for security & protection.

Imagine if Finnland and Russia did not have to worry about armaments & stockades then the money could go elsewhere.

[Äijä]

in any case, you have a lot in common with our president.
I'm sure you guys would make a lovely pair (expect that's she's probably a lesbian)

Dont know her, sounds like a sane woman, might be a real Amazon lesbian.

[Äijä]

Europeans always depend on alliances for security & protection.

Imagine if Finnland and Russia did not have to worry about armaments & stockades then the money could go elsewhere.

Russian main interest is China and Caucasus, Finlands only interest is deciding its own policies without outside pressure.

Naturally I hope for world peace. :thumbs up

[Hercus Monte]

Dont know her, sounds like a sane woman, might be a real Amazon lesbian.
she has a black belt in Karate :rolleyes:

http://www.karikatura.lt/wp-content/uploads/grybauskaite_putinas.jpg

[Äijä]

exactly

So it is useless to keep a defense??


I don't understand your point.

That creating a military vacuum is not good to the area.

Look at Switzerland, why do they keep it up?

[Peikko]

Yes and I can answer questions if you plan to serve, like what are your strengths and interests.
Tell me more, I'm actually interested. Where did you serve, did you go to normal infantry or what?


We are getting more modern every year, we are actually building a more active defense, it will start 1500km from the borders, not just sitting in a foxhole waiting.
You mean our defense starts before Russians get over the borders?? What do you mean by 1500km?

[Hercus Monte]

So it is useless to keep a defense??
on the contrary, I prefer a highly skilled military, rather than a conscripted one.
even with a conscripted army, we couldn't defend ourselves from the Russians. we would rely on our allies in any scenario. (Poland to be precise, and since they have a giant reserve, I don't think a conscripted army makes sense for us)
With a professional army we have a chance to actually get some work done.




Look at Switzerland, why do they keep it up?
ask them.

[glass]

wikipeadia is not really the best source of information. just a little tip for the future.
Sweden is doing quite well when it comes to military technology, you should read the news more often.


wrong, It's Karaliaučius.
do you think there will be even single citizen of kaliningrad able to spell it?

[Hercus Monte]

do you think there will be even single citizen of kaliningrad able to spell it?
about 1,1% of the population should be able to do so. :rolleyes:

[Peikko]

Ruskiberg
Do you guys have any word for Russians? We have ryssä :P

[Windischer]

do you think there will be even single citizen of kaliningrad able to spell it?

am quite confident in ordinary peoples spelling, much more than yours ;)

[Hercus Monte]

Do you guys have any word for Russians? We have ryssä :P
rusai, ruskiai, ruseliai...
sometimes we say runkeliai :rolleyes:

[Peikko]

rusai, ruskei, ruseliai...
sometimes we say runkeliai :rolleyes:
Sounds a bit like "runkkari" (wanker in Finnish).

[Äijä]

Tell me more, I'm actually interested. Where did you serve, did you go to normal infantry or what?

I am a Scout.


You mean our defense starts before Russians get over the borders?? What do you mean by 1500km?

That we have got and are getting more offensive long range systems that work as a deterrence better than being active after contact.

That means ballistic and cruise missiles, air/naval assets used for offensive operations deep in enemy territory, more special forces operations and active use of electronical warfare.

[Hercus Monte]

Sounds a bit like "runkkari" (wanker in Finnish).
runkelis/runkeliai means the same in lithuanian :rolleyes:



I usually hear it when it's applied to Lithuanian lumpenproletariat.
In my experience It's used to refer to all the proletariat.

[glass]

about 1,1% of the population should be able to do so. :rolleyes:
so it has began... this Migla propaganda thread is just one part of big game "take kaliningrad from Russia"
I should knew it, balts are already there :D

we will not give up russian land without fight!

[Peikko]

I am a Scout.
Do you mean sissi or tiedustelija or something?


That we have got and are getting more offensive long range systems that work as a deterrence better than being active after contact.

That means ballistic and cruise missiles, air/naval assets used for offensive operations deep in enemy territory, more special forces operations and active use of electronical warfare.
We have cruise missiles??

[Hercus Monte]

so it has began... this Migla propaganda thread is just one part of big game "take kaliningrad from Russia"
I should knew it, balts are already there :D

we will not give up russian land without fight!
over our cold, dead bodies. (lets face it, it's the most likely scenario :rolleyes:)

(p.s. we've been there for centuries, but you did a good job at bringing our numbers down)

[Äijä]

Do you mean sissi or tiedustelija or something?

Tiedustelija, you still get the basics for both, we stay low and direct those big weapons on the target.



We have cruise missiles??

Yes, two types, naval and air, and Army has ballistic missiles.

[Harkonnen]

a Scout.


what's up bro


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEgVI-IKpqk

[Peikko]

what's up bro

You a scout too?

I didn't know Finland has cruise missiles, I knew that the Air Force is planning to by some (or did they already?).

[Äijä]

You a scout too?

I didn't know Finland has cruise missiles, I knew that the Air Force is planning to by some (or did they already?).

USA had some trouble with Russians protesting about change of balance of power in the area so they refused to sell, the Georgian war changed their mind most likely.

The navy missiles have had the land strike capability for years, they can launched from ships or land batteries, the army uses the MRLS to shoot theirs.
Best part is that the newest models coming out have massive increase in range, we must get all the upgrades as soon as possible.

[IceSwan]

I should knew it, balts are already there :D

http://i024.radikal.ru/1401/43/aa814d56051e.jpg

[Hercus Monte]

http://i024.radikal.ru/1401/43/aa814d56051e.jpg
that a tiny bit rude, isn't it?

[Geminus]

Well, Königsberg was at least best off in terms of cultural and scientific progress under German rule. People like David Hilbert, E.T.A. Hoffmann, Immanuel Kant etc. come from Königsberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Königsberg).
But it seems our politicians missed the chance to get it back somehow (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jul/31/kalingrad-kant-home-return-german)

[Äijä]

Well, Königsberg was at least best off in terms of cultural and scientific progress under German rule. People like David Hilbert, E.T.A. Hoffmann, Immanuel Kant etc. come from Königsberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Königsberg).
But it seems our politicians missed the chance to get it back somehow (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/jul/31/kalingrad-kant-home-return-german)

I would be pissed if you got it and we lost Karelia for good.

Hitler was a one balled pedophile Austrian that looked pitiful, dont get how Prussian officers followed him.

[SkyBurn]

Let the Russians keep it for practical use. All the other sea ports freeze over during the winter.

[Gaston]

Let the Russians keep it for practical use. All the other sea ports freeze over during the winter.

Sevastopol? :thumb001:

[Eckhart]

It doesn't matter anymore.

[SkyBurn]

Sevastopol? :thumb001:

That's Ukraine.

[Gaston]

That's Ukraine.

Russia still has a Naval base there and the majority of the population is Russian.

[arcticwolf]

Let the Russians keep it for practical use. All the other sea ports freeze over during the winter.

Let the Russians keep it? Like who is going to take it away from Russians? Any volunteers?

[Unome]

Let the Russians keep it? Like who is going to take it away from Russians? Any volunteers?
I will go and convince Putin, face to face. It is time to reinstate Prussia.

[arcticwolf]

I will go and convince Putin, face to face. It is time to reinstate Prussia.

Good luck with that! LOL

Are you a real Baltic Prussian? Right, as I thought. :laugh:

[glass]

Good luck with that! LOL

Are you a real Baltic Prussian? Right, as I thought. :laugh:
seems another lithuanian ashamed of his/her lithuanian heritage, why do they call themselves prussian?

[arcticwolf]

seems another lithuanian ashamed of his/her lithuanian heritage, why do they call themselves prussian?

I have no idea bro. Americans are confused about their roots in general. lol

[Unome]

Good luck with that! LOL

Are you a real Baltic Prussian? Right, as I thought. :laugh:
Pureblood with namesake, yes, I have the rights.

[DeaththeKid]

"Lithuania Just Casually Mentioned The Possibility Of Blockading Kaliningrad"
http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2013/10/02/lithuania-just-casually-mentioned-the-possibility-of-blockading-kaliningrad/

"Lithuania threatens to take Russian region hostage, demands changes in foreign policy"
http://rt.com/politics/lithuania-threats-kaliningrad-road-638/

[Hercus Monte]

just a random thought.

http://i.imgur.com/r9F6vnf.png

[glass]

just a random thought.

http://i.imgur.com/r9F6vnf.png
looks good?
btw how "iau" spells?

[Hercus Monte]

btw have "iau" sound?
what do you mean? what about the ''iau'' sound?

[glass]

what do you mean? what about the ''iau'' sound?
how it spells

[Hercus Monte]

how it spells
iau? it's spelled first with an ''I'', than an ''A'' and lastly an ''U'', :rolleyes:

I don't understand your question.
Did you mean to ask how to pronounce it?

here's the IPA transcription [iɐːu]

[glass]

iau? it's spelled first with an ''I'', than an ''A'' and lastly an ''U'', :rolleyes:

I don't understand your question.
Did you mean to ask how to pronounce it?

here's the IPA transcription [iɐːu]
nvm...

[Hercus Monte]

Pureblood with namesake, yes, I have the rights.
those haven't existed for centuries :rolleyes:

you're making big claims, claims that would technically revolutionise our understanding of the region. I think it's fair to say you talking nonsense.


seems another lithuanian ashamed of his/her lithuanian heritage, why do they call themselves prussian?
don't drag us into this.
the prussian movement and institute are in Poland, not Lithuania.

[justme]

Germans and Lithuanians never originally belonged in the area.
The original settlers of Prussia where Lithuanian, in fact most of North Eastern Poland was originally Baltic and not Slavic. I don't like Russia for what it did to Prussia.

[Unome]

The original settlers of Prussia where Lithuanian, in fact most of North Eastern Poland was originally Baltic and not Slavic. I don't like Russia for what it did to Prussia.
No, wrong.

[justme]

No, wrong.
Truth hurt?

[Unome]

Truth hurt?
Yes, so?

[justme]

Yes, so?
If you accept the truth... It will stop hurting.

[Unome]

If you accept the truth... It will stop hurting.
Never!

[justme]

Never!
Ok then, live in denial.

[Unome]

Ok then, live in denial.
The best way to live.

[Jehan]

Nobody talk about it but there was an independant party in Prussia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Republican_Party

I don't arrive to find theirsupport by the local populkation. It seems there are enought popular to worry moscow. It should be interesting to know if they want to change the language and teach german at school.

[Jehan]

Another link to a movement who promote the rebirth of Prussia.

http://prussiankingdom.com/

[Odin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-JEd1VNzE8

[Peterski]

Timeline of Old Prussian (West Baltic) Lands:

https://i.imgur.com/NIoU4us.png

In the 1200s there were 12 Pagan, West Baltic realms:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Baltic_peoples_and_tribes

Sudovia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yotvingians
Lubavia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubawa
Pomesania - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomesanians
Pogesania - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogesanians
Bartia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartians
Warmia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmians
Sasna - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasna
Galindia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians
Sambia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambia_Peninsula
Natangia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natangians
Nadrovia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadruvians
Skalovia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skalvians

Regions which emerged in formerly Prussian lands later:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince-Bishopric_of_Warmia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Prussia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberland_(Ostpreu%C3%9Fen)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masuria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania_Minor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marienwerder_(district)#History - added to West Prussia after 1772 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwidzyn#History)

Within so called Royal Prussia, only Lubavia and Pomesania were actual Prussian lands.

==========

Before the Prussian Crusade (which started in year 1218) there were those 12 realms. After the Thirteen Years' War, most of Lubavia and Pomesania became parts of Polish Royal Prussia (the remaining parts became portions of Oberland - Upper Prussia - western part of Ducal Prussia). Lubavia was incorporated to Chełmno Voivodeship of Royal Prussia, and Pomesania (a less historical Polish name for this region is Powiśle, or "Land beyond the Vistula") to Malbork Voivodeship. Most of Pogesania became part of Oberland in Ducal Prussia. After the crusade Bartia was partially incorporated into Warmia (Ermland) within its new borders, and partially remained a separate region. Galindia and Sasna became known as Masuria after they were colonized by Polish settlers (most of whom came from Masovia, hence the name transfer). Some parts of Galindia were also absorbed by Masovia. Nadrovia and Skalovia became known as Lithuania Minor (or Prussian Lithuania) after they were colonized by Lithuanian settlers. Later part of Skalovia became known as Memelland (this part is now in Lithuania). Sudovia (also known as Yotvingia or Suwalszczyzna in Polish) was in Poland-Lithuania and later became part of the Duchy of Warsaw and of Congress Kingdom of Poland.

==========

Apparently Lithuania was offered Kaliningrad after WW2, but refused (too many Russians to absorb):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?242253-What-do-Russians-think-about-Kaliningrad-Oblast&p=5096810&viewfull=1#post5096810