Italy or Spain: Most culturally foreign to Europe

[Dombra]

Most culturally foreign to Europe, Italy or Spain?

[Dombra]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kZMFivR0Y94/UbgFzh5aqsI/AAAAAAAAAQA/E_b8VIkW5Ac/s1600/AlAndMap.jpg

[Ianus]

No oneof wo is foreign to Europe culturally speaking.

[DanielJ1eH]

This can't be a legitimate thread. Both countries ARE European countries!

[Dombra]

This can't be a legitimate thread. Both countries ARE European countries!

I know but who has the most foreign influences?

[DanielJ1eH]

Spain, obviously. They were rules by Muslims for 100 or so years.

[Sikeliot]

Spain.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Swedes.

[Proctor]

Spain.

[Styrian Mujo]

Southren Italy is basically Catholic Arabia.

[Peyrol]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kZMFivR0Y94/UbgFzh5aqsI/AAAAAAAAAQA/E_b8VIkW5Ac/s1600/AlAndMap.jpg

No, no, nooooo!!! Why only Spain?


You've to post only the true italian map, the only one:


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/600/7621.png (https://imageshack.com/i/go7621p)

[Gaston]

They are both central in the formation of the modern European civilization, which is quite unlike most of Europe. It's just a fact.

Spain having a muslim past is an invalid argument because Al-Andalus was actually the main cultural center of Europe in most of the Middle Ages (apart from Italian city states & co).

[Dombra]

No, no, nooooo!!! Why only Spain?


You've to post only the true italian map, the only one:


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/600/7621.png (https://imageshack.com/i/go7621p)

LOL The most epic map!!!

[Ibericus]

We are both culturally more European than germanic countries, who today are just ass-lickers of american culture

[Mehmet]

Italy is more European. They have Vatican there.
However Spain is the main nation having spread Vaticanism all over the world (in fact only Latin America + Philippines).

Spain has extra European culture.
They keep talking like Arabic people for example EL pais, EL mundo etc.. They also have weird dances such as Flamenco.

[Ibericus]

Italy is more European. They have Vatican there.
However Spain is the main nation having spread Vaticanism all over the world (in fact only Latin America + Philippines).

Spain has extra European culture.
They keep talking like Arabic people for example EL pais, EL mundo etc.. They also have weird dances such as Flamenco.
You moron, the article "El" is from Latin, not from arabic. And flamenco is gypsy, not arabic.

[Empecinado]

Can anyone name any of those extra-European influences in Spain? For the moment nobody is able to tell a single one.

[Sikeliot]

No, no, nooooo!!! Why only Spain?


You've to post only the true italian map, the only one:


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/600/7621.png (https://imageshack.com/i/go7621p)



I don't think southern Italy is like Arab lands, I think rather that some of West Asia is like Europe and not like Saudi Arabia.

[Tropico]

Argentina

[Sikeliot]

Can anyone name any of those extra-European influences in Spain? For the moment nobody is able to tell a single one.

Flamenco.

[Peyrol]

I don't think southern Italy is like Arab lands, I think rather that some of West Asia is like Europe and not like Saudi Arabia.

Oh, c'mon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony

[Dombra]

And flamenco is gypsy, not arabic.

Thus foreign :laugh:

[Empecinado]

Flamenco.

:picard2:

Flamenco is a traditional Gypsy dance. I ask for Spanish.

[Sikeliot]

:picard2:

Flamenco is a traditional Gypsy dance. I ask for Spanish.

Isn't it appropriated as part of Spanish culture though, even if not truly Spanish?

[Ibericus]

Thus foreign :laugh:
Gypsys themselves are foreign, or you think somalis are part of swedish culture ?

[Raikaswinþs]

Flamenco.

Flamenco has foreign influences (arabic and gypsy) but it is not foreign to the region itself. It has its roots on the traditional music and dance of southwestern Spain since ancient times. Some of these dances were so popular in the Roman Empire that they rivalred in popularity in the imperial capital with the Syrian dancers. The romans called some of these dancrs the "Girls from Cadiz".

This dancing tradition was present in the area since Tartessic times. If Tartessos is, as it seems to be, a proto-celtic culture, Flamenco can be considered to have a proto-celtic origin. Of course it has come a long way to its current form, as these southern Iberian dances have evolved through time and added eastern spices to it. But still as bit as European as Polka or Sardana (And far more aesthetically pleasing too )

[Peyrol]

That's a good spanish song, lol...not the Flamenco


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OUeaBuhY_Q

[Sikeliot]

That's a good spanish song, lol...not the Flamenco


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OUeaBuhY_Q

Sounds like Irish music, only in Spanish.

[Raikaswinþs]

BTW this thread is a serious candidate for Darwin Award of the year. And we're just in February. Next thread: Are tomatoes really fruits?

[Sikeliot]

Flamenco has foreign influences (arabic and gypsy) but it is not foreign to the region itself. It has its roots on the traditional music and dance of southwestern Spain since ancient times. Some of these dances were so popular in the Roman Empire that they rivalred in popularity in the imperial capital with the Syrian dancers. The romans called some of these dancrs the "Girls from Cadiz".

This dancing tradition was present in the area since Tartessic times. If Tartessos is, as it seems to be, a proto-celtic culture, Flamenco can be considered to have a proto-celtic origin. Of course it has come a long way to its current form, as these southern Iberian dances have evolved through time and added eastern spices to it. But still as bit as European as Polka or Sardana (And far more aesthetically pleasing too )


There is nothing like it elsewhere in Europe, and there are similar dances in Morocco now, whether through Spanish influence or coincidentally.

[Peyrol]

Sounds like Irish music, only in Spanish.

Just like this from here (southwest Piemont):

(the Lurte of the spanish song are a folk group from Saragoza if i remember well, btw)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL5pQTuZYE4


The instrument (in english known as ''hurdy gurdy''), named Vioulo/Viola de Roda in catalan, occitan, aragones and piemontese, was quite common in our folk musics.

[Empecinado]

Isn't it appropriated as part of Spanish culture though, even if not truly Spanish?

No, as it's generally don't liked nor played by Spaniards. It's part of the Gypsy culture, not of the Spanish one and we already have our own dances and music styles: Jota, Copla, Muñeira, Pasodoble, Romances...

[brazuca]

We are both culturally more European than germanic countries, who today are just ass-lickers of american culture

:thumb001:

[Peyrol]

...iberian song?

...no, Provençal.

Must be non european too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA50NfttvEY

[SKYNET]

Spain and Italy both have the same ancestors of the great Roman Empire who have created and developed a core of the European civilization, while Swedes and other Scandinavians were sea pirates and robbers in the forest areas in those times.

[Sikeliot]

The difference is Spain was a recipient of Roman culture. They didn't contribute, just received.

[Damião de Góis]

There is nothing like it elsewhere in Europe

Each country have their own culture. If they have things that exist in other countries then it's not unique, and probably someone is copying someone else.

[Peyrol]

The difference is Spain was a recipient of Roman culture. They didn't contribute, just received.

Not exactly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian

[Ibericus]

Isn't it appropriated as part of Spanish culture though, even if not truly Spanish?
Flamenco as it's known today is from the 18th century, and spaniards were not even aware of it's existance until the early 20th century, it was something very local and gypsy... it was later when it was promoted and expanded by governements, and sold to foreigners the image of something national, still it has always remeinated a minoritary thing. The image of flamenco as being "national culture of Spain" is totally unrealistic.

[Empecinado]

That's a good spanish song, lol...not the Flamenco


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OUeaBuhY_Q

Gaitas (bagpipes) are part of the Aragonese folklore. In this song they claim how they play bagpipes and they aren't Scottish, Galicians nor Asturians xD


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfIy-nFCAFM

[Sikeliot]

Not exactly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian

They're Romans living in Spain, not Spaniards. Spain itself did not do anything novel during Roman times.

[Empecinado]

Not exactly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trajan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian

And the gladius hispaniensis, the Roman sword, which was based on the Iberian one.

[Sikeliot]

I'm just saying that I would not give the Spanish credit for Roman civilization because they were recipients. I'd say the same for France. Only Italians can claim that. Also, they're not your genetic ancestors.

[Peyrol]

Gaitas (bagpipes) are part of the Aragonese folklore. In this song they claim how they play bagpipes and they aren't Scottish, Galicians nor Asturians xD



Yep i know.

As the lombard-venetic Baghet (''little bag'' in east lombard language) and the abruzzese Zampogna (a term derived from greek zymphonya).

They aren't totally alien in south Europe, contrarily to the common north euro thought.

[Peyrol]

I'm just saying that I would not give the Spanish credit for Roman civilization because they were recipients. I'd say the same for France. Only Italians can claim that. Also, they're not your genetic ancestors.

Do you mean that iberians weren't my ancestors or romans weren't my ancestors?

[blogen]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kZMFivR0Y94/UbgFzh5aqsI/AAAAAAAAAQA/E_b8VIkW5Ac/s1600/AlAndMap.jpg

The situation in Italy was similary, Byzantine rule between the 6th and the 10th century:
http://www.theancientworld.net/images/byzantine1.jpg

[Empecinado]

I'm just saying that I would not give the Spanish credit for Roman civilization because they were recipients. I'd say the same for France. Only Italians can claim that. Also, they're not your genetic ancestors.

Only Central Italians can claim that. The others were Romanized peoples just like us.

[Sikeliot]

Do you mean that iberians weren't my ancestors or romans weren't my ancestors?

Romans aren't the Spaniards' ancestors. At least not genetically. Also most things that we think of as Spanish like flamenco, bull fighting, paella etc. have nothing to do with Italy.

[Sikeliot]

Only Central Italians can claim that. The others were Romanized peoples just like us.

Which is why I claim my ancient Greek heritage more. Also in reference to the Byzantine influence in Italy, it's often said that eastern Sicily feels Byzantine in many ways while the west feels more Italo-Norman. So I do identify with Byzantine heritage too.

[Raikaswinþs]

There is nothing like it elsewhere in Europe, and there are similar dances in Morocco now, whether through Spanish influence or coincidentally.

Except for every gypsy-influenced dance all over the Balcans , Greece and South Eastern Europe?:picard2: Gypsies influeced flamenco. But flamenco itself is not Gypsy (Let alone Moroccan). It roots in Iberian dances existing in South West Spain since times immemorial; the Romans already knew about them and considered them in high regard.

There is epic Bagpipe music in Georgia, Turkey and Pakistan. Flamenco is arguably more European than bagpipes which probably entered Europe through Anatolia much later on.

Nevertheless, asserting that Spain is "off European" because there is a dance in the Southwest (More popular London and New York than it is in the Atlantic part of Spain) that to you looks exotic says it all about your level of knowledge of music, folklore or Spain (Or what Europe is)

West Eurasia is the birthplace of European and Western Civilization. Their folklore is arguably the oldest and best preserved in Europe, as well as its natural and human landscapes. Iberia and Italy are two of its foundational pillars. No other country in the world has more UNESCO world heritage sites than Italy (1st) and Spain (2nd)


Nevertheless, there aren't ANY flamenco artists from where I come from. However.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBpT60gW2J4

[Peyrol]

The situation in Italy was similary, Byzantine rule between the 6th and the 10th century:
http://www.theancientworld.net/images/byzantine1.jpg

No way after 600 A.D. byzantine empire was so huge, especially after longobard conquest of Italy and Caliphate expansion in Middle East and North Africa.

[Peyrol]

Romans aren't the Spaniards' ancestors. At least not genetically. Also most things that we think of as Spanish like flamenco, bull fighting, paella etc. have nothing to do with Italy.

The only people which can claim genetic ancestors from romans are central italians and some (few) million people spreaded all around Western, Northwestern and SouthWestern europe.
Even south italians were (partially) romanized hellenics and north italians romanized celto-ligurians.

[Empecinado]

Which is why I claim my ancient Greek heritage more. Also in reference to the Byzantine influence in Italy, it's often said that eastern Sicily feels Byzantine in many ways while the west feels more Italo-Norman. So I do identify with Byzantine heritage too.

Anyways, the cultural Romanization was deep in most of Spain and Italy. Byzantines identified themselves as "Romans" at least in the 14th century and called their land "Romania", have read today from a Byzantine chronicler born in these times.

[Sikeliot]

No way after 600 A.D. byzantine empire was so huge, especially after longobard conquest of Italy and Caliphate expansion in Middle East and North Africa.

Second to Italian, I'd say the biggest cultural influence in Sicily is Byzantine era.

[Peyrol]

Anyways, the cultural Romanization was deep in most of Spain and Italy. Byzantines identified themselves as "Romans" at least in the 14th century and called their land "Romania", have read today from a Byzantine chronicler born in these times.

The most good element to see about how deep was romanization is the developement of the romance languages.

Here an ''ucronical'' (not with a contemporaneity criteria) map with all the romance languages ever existed and developed in Europe (and not only):


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/194/0nyf.png (https://imageshack.com/i/5e0nyfp)

[Raikaswinþs]

The difference is Spain was a recipient of Roman culture. They didn't contribute, just received.

No other country was more relevant to the Roman empire than Spain military, culturally and economically. They spent 200 years in its conquest for a reason. The romans were practical folks that developed their culture by absorbing whatever they considered useful or good from the people from their dominions. They took a lot from the Greeks too. But the Greek influence in Rome is well known and sometimes overstated. However the role of Hispania/Iberia, which was key to the empire and which eventually became its Western Sucessor States and went on to Latinize and Christianize half of the world (North America, Central America, South America, Japan, the Phillipines , a chunk of Africa ) is very often overlook.

Which is normal since we're talking Spain, and Spanish history is always obscured and hidden from American and other European textbooks. (Recently even Spanish )

Hispania served as a granary and a major source of metals for the Roman market, and its harbors exported gold, tin, silver, lead, wool, wheat, olive oil, wine, fish, and garum . Agricultural production increased with the introduction of irrigation projects, some of which remain in use today. The Romanized Iberian populations and the Iberian-born descendants of Roman soldiers and colonists had all achieved the status of full Roman citizenship by the end of the 1st century. The emperors Trajan (r. 98–117), Hadrian (r. 117–138), and Marcus Aurelius (r. 161–180) were of Hispanic origin. The Iberian denarii, also called argentum oscense by Roman soldiers, circulated until the 1st century BC, after which it was replaced by Roman coins.

"This Hispania produces tough soldiers, very skilled captains, prolific speakers, luminous bards. It is a mother of judges and princes; it has given Trajan, Hadrian, and Theodosius to the Empire."- Latinius Pacatus Drepanius

[Sikeliot]

However the role of Hispania/Iberia, which was key to the empire and which eventually became its Western Sucessor States and went on to Latinize and Christianize half of the world (North America, Central America, South America, Japan, the Phillipines , a chunk of Africa ) is very often overlook.

Probably because if we celebrate Spain as being important to the Roman Empire, New Worlders like Dominicans and Guatemalans will begin claiming their "Roman" heritage.

[Dombra]

The situation in Italy was similary, Byzantine rule between the 6th and the 10th century:
http://www.theancientworld.net/images/byzantine1.jpg

Byzantine was European :picard2:

[Peyrol]

Probably because if we celebrate Spain as being important to the Roman Empire, New Worlders like Dominicans and Guatemalans will begin claiming their "Roman" heritage.

This would be totally senseless, since even their iberian roots are minimal to indigenous/african ones, and overrated.

[Cristiano viejo]

Flamenco is from Spanish origin, nor Arab neither Gypsy. 99,9999% of Spaniards hate Flamenco.
Muslims ruled the land, not the ancestors of the Spaniards.
You have the Turbofolk in Balkans.
Spain and Italy are culturally 100% European, unlike other countries with non Indoeuropean languages, such as Finland and Hungary.
Balkan countries still remain a lot of non-European customes... food, drinks, clothing...
English Fish and Cheaps, typical English food by excellence, is from Jewish origin.
etc
Typical Mongol thread from a person with Mongol phenotype ie non European :icon_lol:

[Raikaswinþs]

Probably because if we celebrate Spain as being important to the Roman Empire, New Worlders like Dominicans and Guatemalans will begin claiming their "Roman" heritage. And what is wrong woth that if its absolutely truth? They are latinized peoples (culturally speaking) and Hispanized (genetically) Of course they also have African, Amerindian and other ancestries that are important to their current identity. But how can you deny that black, white, mulato or mestizo, Latin americans are western peoples?

[Sikeliot]

Not everything in Sicily is European though most of it is. But they were ruled by Muslims far longer ago than were the Balkans, so the influences are older and assimilated.

[Peyrol]

And what is wrong woth that if its absolutely truth? They are latinized peoples (culturally speaking) and Hispanized (genetically) Of course they also have African, Amerindian and other ancestries that are important to their current identity. But how can you deny that black, white, mulato or mestizo, Latin americans are western peoples?

Well, then even a french speaking ivorienne or kongolese is ''latin and european''?

[Sikeliot]

And what is wrong woth that if its absolutely truth? They are latinized peoples (culturally speaking) and Hispanized (genetically) Of course they also have African, Amerindian and other ancestries that are important to their current identity. But how can you deny that black, white, mulato or mestizo, Latin americans are western peoples?

I don't want to see them claiming they're "Roman" and expecting credit for Roman civilization. I think that should be reserved for Italy, sorry.

[Tooting Carmen]

Nonsensical thread. Both countries are integral parts of Europe, however much they have received influences from other parts of the Mediterranean region.

[Raikaswinþs]

Spain was to the Roman Empire what Mexico was to the Spanish Empire. A spiritual Sucessor. OF coursr with its own idyosyncrasy, geographical and genetic singularities.

[Sikeliot]

Spain was to the Roman Empire what Mexico was to the Spanish Empire. A spiritual Sucessor. OF coursr with its own idyosyncrasy, geographical and genetic singularities.

Well that might be a claim for Mexicans, but why should a Dominican, or a Peruvian, or a Bolivian get to claim credit for the Romans?

[Sikeliot]

And besides, you guys are Latinized, not Latin.

[Empecinado]

Spain was to the Roman Empire what Mexico was to the Spanish Empire. A spiritual Sucessor. OF coursr with its own idyosyncrasy, geographical and genetic singularities.

I don't think so, tthis role was played out by Byzantine Empire (oficially Eastern Roman Empire).

[Peyrol]

Sorry but between Francesco Totti or Hugo Chavez, obviously only the first one must pe proud to be roman :lol:

[Raikaswinþs]

I don't want to see them claiming they're "Roman" and expecting credit for Roman civilization. I think that should be reserved for Italy, sorry.

What is it with this "Claims" you talk about all the time?No one today can claim any credit for anything the Romans did. The Spaniards were Roman citizens, and very busy at it. From Spanish Roman emperors through soldiers, food exporters, merchants, poets, civil engineers that took part in the romanization of much of Europe, and later on, to the Americas and beyond.

What is left today is only cultural heritage. Mexicans are heirs of Romanization . Even Britons are. That doesn't mean any of them carry central Italian blood.

[Sikeliot]

Sorry but between Francesco Totti or Hugo Chavez, obviously only the first one must pe proud to be roman :lol:

Yes. Latinized does not = Latin in my eyes, I would not even say a Sicilian is a full "Latin" although it is one of their main influences along with Byzantine, Greek, etc.

[Sikeliot]

What is it with this "Claims" you talk about all the time?No one today can claim any credit for anything the Romans did. The Spaniards were Roman citizens, and very busy at it. From Spanish Roman emperors through soldiers, food exporters, merchants, poets, civil engineers that took part in the romanization of much of Europe, and later on, to the Americas and beyond.

What is left today is only cultural heritage. Mexicans are heirs of Romanization . Even Britons are. That doesn't mean any of them carry central Italian blood.

Sorry, but this is a Latin/Roman:

http://www.topnews.in/files/Daniele-De-Rossi5.jpg


This is a Spanish-speaking African:

http://2000magazine.com/websightsthree/yankeesmagazine/NEWPAGES2/pictures/alfonso%20soriano.jpg



If you think they're both equally "Latin" and "Roman", well you have problems.

[Raikaswinþs]

I don't think so, tthis role was played out by Byzantine Empire (oficially Eastern Roman Empire).

The bizantine empire separated from Roman church and spoke greek. The Spaniards were Roman Catholic and spoke Latin and Romance, and they exported Roman Law, language and religion to the world. The Byzantine empire was also an espiritual sucessor (They called themselves Romans) ,but it became easternized in a way Spain never did, even after centuries of Muslim occcupation. Spain today still is based on roman Law, God and language.

[Raikaswinþs]

Sorry, but this is a Latin/Roman:

http://www.topnews.in/files/Daniele-De-Rossi5.jpg


This is a Spanish-speaking African:

http://2000magazine.com/websightsthree/yankeesmagazine/NEWPAGES2/pictures/alfonso%20soriano.jpg



If you think they're both equally "Latin" and "Roman", well you have problems.

You're mixing churras and merinas here, as it suits your agenda. Nobody said SSA latin americans can claim to be biological descents of Roman Italy. The only place where such people exist is in Italy and through Italian diaspora.

My point is: The fact that that man Speaks Romance, is probably a Roman Catholic and culuraly westerner is a sign that Roman influence, through Spain, one of its spiritual sucessors, expanded through the world and is one of the pillars of Western Civilization.

[Peyrol]

What is it with this "Claims" you talk about all the time?No one today can claim any credit for anything the Romans did. The Spaniards were Roman citizens, and very busy at it. From Spanish Roman emperors through soldiers, food exporters, merchants, poets, civil engineers that took part in the romanization of much of Europe, and later on, to the Americas and beyond.

What is left today is only cultural heritage. Mexicans are heirs of Romanization . Even Britons are. That doesn't mean any of them carry central Italian blood.

The only sure matter is that central italians (and some andalusians, judjing from the map) cary a lot of central italic blood

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_umhSvWEgx2c/TClAOLxqQfI/AAAAAAAAFbY/dj145Fo8p5E/s1600/colonie.jpg

[Raikaswinþs]

The only sure matter is that central italians (and some andalusians, judjing from the map) cary a lot of central italic blood

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_umhSvWEgx2c/TClAOLxqQfI/AAAAAAAAFbY/dj145Fo8p5E/s1600/colonie.jpg

The secnd bigger cluster according to that map is in South West Spain too. Interestingly enough most if the new world colonists came from that very area

[Sikeliot]

The only sure matter is that central italians (and some andalusians, judjing from the map) cary a lot of central italic blood

And Crete. They have a higher amount of "Italic" R1b than the rest of Greece.

[Peyrol]

Sorry, but this is a Latin/Roman:

http://www.topnews.in/files/Daniele-De-Rossi5.jpg


This is a Spanish-speaking African:





If you think they're both equally "Latin" and "Roman", well you have problems.


De Rossi is more badass with the beard :cool:


http://www.befan.it/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/img_109449216199490.jpeg

http://static.fanpage.it/gossipfanpage/wp-content/uploads/gallery/i-belli-di-euro-2012/il-campione-daniele-de-rossi-800x540.jpg

[HellLander87]

And Crete. They have a higher amount of "Italic" R1b than the rest of Greece.
It's probably from venetian occupation.

[Armand_Duval]

What kind of dumb question is this?

It equals as saying: Corea or Vietnam? which one of them is non asiatic?...

[aimar]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kZMFivR0Y94/UbgFzh5aqsI/AAAAAAAAAQA/E_b8VIkW5Ac/s1600/AlAndMap.jpg

why is granada and cordoba so far north?

[Dombra]

What kind of dumb question is this?

It equals as saying: Corea or Vietnam? which one of them is non asiatic?...

Vietnam, too Australoid

[Peyrol]

It's probably from venetian occupation.

Can be, but the ''Iraclesi'' (venetian cretans) were deported into Anatolia during the conquest by Ozmans, but they could have left some genetic track.

[Sikeliot]

I can show you autosomal results for Andalusians as opposed to Galicians, then compared to central Italians, and the former two are not that different and very far from central Italians. I doubt Romans left much genetic impact on either.

[Armand_Duval]

Vietnam, too Australoid

No, Vietnamn is racially south cinid regarding culturally both are 100% asiatic to.

[Empecinado]

Nowadays Andalusians have little to do with the Andalusians from the Roman era. Most of its inhabitants were displaced and replaced. For example, the Huelva province was called Banda Gallega (Galician frontier) because was mainly populated by Galician and Leonese people.

[Dombra]

No, Vietnamn is racially south cinid regarding culturally both are 100% asiatic to.

Yeah, but Koreans are as über Asian as you can get, thus Vietgnomes are less Asian

[Sikeliot]

Nowadays Andalusians have little to do with the Andalusians from the Roman era. Most of its inhabitants were displaced and replaced. For example, the Huelva province was called Banda Gallega (Galician frontier) because was mainly populated by Galician and Leonese people.

Also much of the original population of Andalusia got expelled to Morocco during the Reconquista for refusing to convert back to Christianity, and being replaced with people from northern Spain.

[Comte Arnau]

Sikeliot's misinformation about real Iberia is so painful it isn't even funny. Mainly because he's not trolling like the OP, but trying to be serious. The thread, even if stupid, has caused some very interesting informative comments though, from the Iberian and Italian posters, as usual.

Btw, maybe the Central Italian cluster has something to do with the well-known fact of the Baetica having been a very Romanized province in the Empire, who knows.

[Incal]

None, both are Europe's backbone.

[gold_fenix]

Also much of the original population of Andalusia got expelled to Morocco during the Reconquista for refusing to convert back to Christianity, and being replaced with people from northern Spain.

i am the best example of that

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot's misinformation about real Iberia is so painful it isn't even funny. Mainly because he's not trolling like the OP, but trying to be serious.

Well, if I can see proof Iberians are genetically of Italian descent or that the accomplished Romans of Iberia were genetic Iberians and not Romans living there, I will change my mind.

Andalusia, Murcia, and Extremadura in order..

http://i57.tinypic.com/rvf6gi.png

http://i61.tinypic.com/1z1tt2g.png

http://i59.tinypic.com/2cfe615.png




now Central Italy:

http://i60.tinypic.com/35jxeyw.png

[Sikeliot]

i am the best example of that

Yes, exactly.
:)


Iberians are certainly culturally "Roman" in many ways, but not genetically. They were as I said recipients of Roman culture just like Sicilians, Romanians, French, etc. were. The only originators were Central Italy, thus the only ones who can take credit.

[Lábaru]

Hahaha is a partial list of the infraseres of this Forum.

Italy
2 20.00%
blogen,
Marowit

Spain
8 80.00%
alb0zfinest,
Archduke,
DanielJ1eH,
Dombra,
Marco Marzone,
Proctor,
Sikeliot,
WOOHP

I mean, no intelligent person can participate in a poll like this.

[Comte Arnau]

Well, if I can see proof Iberians are genetically of Italian descent or that the accomplished Romans of Iberia were genetic Iberians and not Romans living there, I will change my mind.

And what Iberian here is telling you that we are genetically Roman? You've already been told that it's about Roman citizenship and ethnocultural heritage, not biology. The great men from the Roman Empire were not only from Rome. And in the same time, Rome was home to people coming from all of the Empire. Roman meant free citizen of the Roman Empire.

[Ibericus]

Also much of the original population of Andalusia got expelled to Morocco during the Reconquista for refusing to convert back to Christianity, and being replaced with people from northern Spain.
The entire Andalusia was not sent to morocco, Come on now , :picard2: most of the original population converted back to Christiniaty in the reconquista with no problem, even some continued practicing Islam (the mudéjares) after being conquered , yes there were repopulations from northern Spain, but they didn't replace the entire population, not even close, it had more to do with policies of redistribution, since Andalusia was underpopulated, compared to the north.

[Incal]

Sikeliot's misinformation about real Iberia is so painful it isn't even funny. Mainly because he's not trolling like the OP, but trying to be serious.

I remember once somebody called him Facebook Anthropologist LMAO

[StonyArabia]

Both have Arab influences in their culture

[Sikeliot]

The entire Andalusia was not sent to morocco, Come on now , :picard2: most of the original population converted back to Christiniaty in the reconquista with no problem, even some continued practicing Islam (the mudéjares) after being conquered , yes there were repopulations from northern Spain, but they didn't replace the entire population, not even close, it had more to do with policies of redistribution, since Andalusia was underpopulated, compared to the north.

Well, someone argued that the Andalusians might have genetic Roman ancestry, but look at their results next to central Italians and you will see it is unlikely. I didn't say ALL Andalusians were sent to Morocco but surely some were. Given the repopulation from the north we do not know if Andalusia today is what it was 600 years ago, genetically.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Flamenco is from Spanish origin, nor Arab neither Gypsy. 99,9999% of Spaniards hate Flamenco.
Muslims ruled the land, not the ancestors of the Spaniards.
You have the Turbofolk in Balkans.
Spain and Italy are culturally 100% European, unlike other countries with non Indoeuropean languages, such as Finland and Hungary.
Balkan countries still remain a lot of non-European customes... food, drinks, clothing...
English Fish and Cheaps, typical English food by excellence, is from Jewish origin.
etc
Typical Mongol thread from a person with Mongol phenotype ie non European :icon_lol:

This.

[blogen]

No way after 600 A.D. byzantine empire was so huge, especially after longobard conquest of Italy and Caliphate expansion in Middle East and North Africa.

Yes, Italy was balkanized after the sixth century, but Italy was a Byzantine stronghold in the Byzantine-Arab wars (the world wars of this civilization), so the Byzantine presence was constant until the 10th century.

[Sikeliot]

Byzantine cultural influences remained in Sicily even through Norman rule.

[blogen]

Byzantine was European :picard2:

No. They were Orientals. The Islam and the Byzantines were a same civilization. The Aegean region was the border between the east and the West in the antiquity, the ancient Greek world was a typical cultural borderland. And this border was shifted towards West (to the Balkan and Italy) on the end of the antiquity with the spread of the eastern cults and the common cultural developments of the greek speaking part of the Roman world.

[blogen]

Byzantine cultural influences remained in Sicily even through Norman rule.

Even today. The mafia is an eastern feudal structure under the partially westernized southern Italian society, the real socio-cultural reality for example. Southern Italy is not part of the Western world, not more western than Lebanon or Serbia.

[Sikeliot]

Even today. The mafia is an eastern feudal structure under the partially westernized southern Italian society, the real socio-cultural reality for example. Southern Italy is not part of the Western world, not more western than Lebanon or Serbia.

Southern Italy is, as I see it, a part of the east that has "become" more western over time, but still doesn't feel wholly western.

[Smeagol]

Southern Italy is, as I see it, a part of the east that has "become" more western over time, but still doesn't feel wholly western.

Depends. If you consider the Greeks to be part of Western Civilization, then so is South Italy, even though it was easternized during parts of it's history.

[Sikeliot]

Depends. If you consider the Greeks to be part of Western Civilization, then so is South Italy, even though it was easternized during parts of it's history.

Well I mean east as in that Sicily is a child of the Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire, a traditionally Orthodox Christian, Greek-speaking land. The Norman conquest brought them closer to the west (as in Western Europe and the Latin speaking world), though.

[Smeagol]

Well I mean east as in that Sicily is a child of the Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire, a traditionally Orthodox Christian, Greek-speaking land. The Norman conquest brought them closer to the west (as in Western Europe and the Latin speaking world), though.

Yes, but before that, Sicily was part of Magna Graecia, And also ruled by the Romans, Goths, and Vandals. I'd say that Sicily in ancient times was a part of western civilization, and was easternized to a degree by later invasions.

[blogen]

Flamenco is from Spanish origin, nor Arab neither Gypsy. 99,9999% of Spaniards hate Flamenco.
Muslims ruled the land, not the ancestors of the Spaniards.
You have the Turbofolk in Balkans.
Spain and Italy are culturally 100% European, unlike other countries with non Indoeuropean languages, such as Finland and Hungary.
Balkan countries still remain a lot of non-European customes... food, drinks, clothing...
English Fish and Cheaps, typical English food by excellence, is from Jewish origin.
etc
Typical Mongol thread from a person with Mongol phenotype ie non European :icon_lol:

The majority of your ancestors were muslim Mozarabs. :D

[Sikeliot]

Yes, but before that, Sicily was part of Magna Graecia, And also ruled by the Romans, Goths, and Vandals. I'd say that Sicily in ancient times was a part of western civilization, and was easternized to a degree by later invasions.

As I pointed out in another thread, there are some cultures who have been to Sicily that you can clearly tell were there in one way or another; Greek influences are abundant everywhere (ancient ruins, musical influences, facial features), Arabs and Berbers (food items, architecture), Italians/Neapolitans (other food items, language, religion) but I see nothing evident of Spanish rule nor Gothic.

[Smeagol]

As I pointed out in another thread, there are some cultures who have been to Sicily that you can clearly tell were there in one way or another; Greek influences are abundant everywhere (ancient ruins, musical influences, facial features), Arabs and Berbers (food items, architecture), Italians/Neapolitans (other food items, language, religion) but I see nothing evident of Spanish rule nor Gothic.

It's true, Sicilians were influenced most of all by the Greeks, and Sicily was a part of the ancient Greek civilization. I guess it's debatable though, weather the Ancient Greeks were really a part of Western Civilization or not, but I believe they are, due to the immense impact their literature, science, Mathematics, art, architecture, etc.. had on the modern Western Culture. The Arabs, and Berbers were of course easternizing influences on Sicily.

[Sikeliot]

The Arabs, and Berbers were of course easternizing influences on Sicily.

And Phoenicians/Carthaginians.

Although it is not the predominant influence, you can see North African influences in Sicily. The ceramic plates they eat on and decorate their walls with, the fact that they eat couscous in the westernmost part of the island, a lot of the architecture, etc. At least you can sense the geographical proximity. Eastern Sicily has less of these influences since they were held by the Byzantines through much of the Arab rule.

It is also worth noting that for at least part of the time they were ruled by Egypt, not Morocco.

[Smeagol]

And Phoenicians/Carthaginians.

Although it is not the predominant influence, you can see North African influences in Sicily. The ceramic plates they eat on and decorate their walls with, the fact that they eat couscous in the westernmost part of the island, a lot of the architecture, etc. At least you can sense the geographical proximity. Eastern Sicily has less of these influences since they were held by the Byzantines through much of the Arab rule.

It is also worth noting that for at least part of the time they were ruled by Egypt, not Morocco.

Yes, I would classify Sicily, as well as Greece after the classical period as between East, and West.

[Sikeliot]

Yes, I would classify Sicily, as well as Greece after the classical period as between East, and West.

And western influences in Sicily are the Italian language, Catholicism, and some of the influences in the music. It's definitely a mixture between east and west.

They also say walking down the streets in Palermo evokes images of the Arab world, but I don't know. I am familiar with Sicily so to me it feels like Palermo :lol:

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/14728490.jpg

[blogen]

Yes, but before that, Sicily was part of Magna Graecia, And also ruled by the Romans, Goths, and Vandals. I'd say that Sicily in ancient times was a part of western civilization, and was easternized to a degree by later invasions.

In the ancient times only western and central Sicily were part of the Antique civilization (Celto-Roman or Greeko-Roman-Celtic world), but the Carthagians were Orientals. These were the great civilizations in the world history:

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/3889/2v0o.jpg

[Sikeliot]

In the ancient times only western and central Sicily were part of the Antique civilization (Celto-Roman or Greeko-Roman-Celtic world), but the Carthagians were Orientals. These were the great civilizations in the world history:

Other way around. Western Sicily was Phoenician and Carthaginian land, and the east and central-east was Greek. Then the Romans took the whole island, and then so did the Byzantines.

[Smeagol]

In the ancient times only western and central Sicily were part of the Antique civilization (Celto-Roman or Greeko-Roman-Celtic world), but the Carthagians were Orientals. These were the great civilizations in the world history:

Western Sicily was actually ruled by the Phoenicians/Carthaginians, and part of the Oriental Civilization. After the First Punic War though, Carthage lost Sicily to the Romans and all of Sicily was part of the Western world.

[Stormer99]

And western influences in Sicily are the Italian language, Catholicism, and some of the influences in the music. It's definitely a mixture between east and west.

They also say walking down the streets in Palermo evokes images of the Arab world, but I don't know. I am familiar with Sicily so to me it feels like Palermo :lol:

http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/14728490.jpg

Neither are foreign but I notice Sicilians like to barter more and haggle in the stores vs. mainland Italians.

[Sikeliot]

Western Sicily was actually ruled by the Phoenicians/Carthaginians, and part of the Oriental Civilization. After the First Punic War though, Carthage lost Sicily to the Romans and all of Sicily was part of the Western world.

If you're curious the genetic difference between western and eastern Sicily is usually in a few specific components.. now that I have people's Dodecad IDs and I know where they're from, I can see the results.

A typical eastern Sicilian is this man here:

West Asian: 31.5
NW African: 3.9
South Euro: 39.7
SW Asian: 15.9
North Euro: 9

While a typical person in Palermo is like this:

West Asian: 27.2
NW African: 3.3
South Euro: 38.9
SW Asian: 17.5
North Euro: 13.1

North Euro rises, SW Asian rises, and West Asian/Caucasus drops as you move west across Sicily.

[blogen]

Western Sicily was actually ruled by the Phoenicians/Carthaginians, and part of the Oriental Civilization. After the First Punic War though, Carthage lost Sicily to the Romans and all of Sicily was part of the Western world.

This is called a borderland.

[Sikeliot]

Neither are foreign but I notice Sicilians like to barter more and haggle in the stores vs. mainland Italians.

Because many parts of the island people sell things in the streets and there are not really "stores" as we know them here.

[Stormer99]

Because many parts of the island people sell things in the streets and there are not really "stores" as we know them here.

True. It was more of a marketplace environment. In my own family, I notice is a part of Sicilian culture they took with them to the US. Do you notice it in your own?

[Sikeliot]

True. It was more of a marketplace environment. In my own family, I notice is a part of Sicilian culture they took with them to the US. Do you notice it in your own?

Yes. It comes with the whole mafioso persona.

[Smeagol]

If you're curious the genetic difference between western and eastern Sicily is usually in a few specific components.. now that I have people's Dodecad IDs and I know where they're from, I can see the results.

A typical eastern Sicilian is this man here:

West Asian: 31.5
NW African: 3.9
South Euro: 39.7
SW Asian: 15.9
North Euro: 9

While a typical person in Palermo is like this:

West Asian: 27.2
NW African: 3.3
South Euro: 38.9
SW Asian: 17.5
North Euro: 13.1

North Euro rises, SW Asian rises, and West Asian/Caucasus drops as you move west across Sicily.

They're pretty similar to Jews.

[Smeagol]

This is called a borderland.

Yes, Sicily was, and is a borderland.

[Sikeliot]

They're pretty similar to Jews.

Which?

Also I notice in people who are half Sicilian, half southern Italian from the mainland the SW Asian will drop and Caucasus/West Asian will rise, especially if they are Calabrese. I even saw one Calabrese get 40% West Asian on that calculator.

[Smeagol]

Which?

Ashkenazi.


Also I notice in people who are half Sicilian, half southern Italian from the mainland the SW Asian will drop and Caucasus/West Asian will rise, especially if they are Calabrese. I even saw one Calabrese get 40% West Asian on that calculator.

Yeah, Sicilians actually have the most SW Asian in Europe, which I guess is from the Arabs. Although, there were far more Berbers during the Islamic rule.

[Sikeliot]

Ashkenazi.



Yeah, Sicilians actually have the most SW Asian in Europe, which I guess is from the Arabs. Although, there were far more Berbers during the Islamic rule.

It might have been due to Phoenicians, too.
Also Sicily was originally controlled by the Fatimids, from Egypt before they were ruled by Berbers.

[Smeagol]

It might have been due to Phoenicians, too.
Also Sicily was originally controlled by the Fatimids, from Egypt before they were ruled by Berbers.

It could have been Phoenicians yes. Also, Egyptians have much more SW Asian then Northwest Africans,so they could have contributed as well.

[Sikeliot]

It could have been Phoenicians yes. Also, Egyptians have much more SW Asian then Northwest Africans,so they could have contributed as well.

What is funny is people often simplify it all by saying eastern Sicilians are dark and western Sicilians light, but they're ignoring facial features. While coloring is more homogenous along the east coast and nearly everyone is a brown-eyed brunette, you won't find nearly as much Armenoid influence as in the west.

[Smeagol]

What is funny is people often simplify it all by saying eastern Sicilians are dark and western Sicilians light, but they're ignoring facial features. While coloring is more homogenous along the east coast and nearly everyone is a brown-eyed brunette, you won't find nearly as much Armenoid influence as in the west.

Sicilians are all across the Island predominantly Mediterranid-Dinarid-Alpinid, and there are minor Armenid, and Arabid influences.

[Ianus]

As always we end up talking about the Sicilian:bored:

[Fincher]

You'll have to define 'Europe', because I doubt there's much continuity between Albania and Northern Ireland.

[Peyrol]

As always we end up talking about the Sicilian:bored:

Yeah it's a curse.

[Peyrol]

As always we end up talking about the Sicilian:bored:

Wen we start to talk about these...i will ''pop'' a champagne bottle :lol:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jr1AKbyMng




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKsPrK_TDMY&list=FLFFR0TB4R4h28UJWQDJUBiQ&index=5





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k967Sejs_jQ




...or even more northeastern :lol:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UemIUrKX498

[Loki]

Sicilians are all across the Island predominantly Mediterranid-Dinarid-Alpinid, and there are minor Armenid, and Arabid influences.

Don't forget about the Nordid influence in and around Palermo.

[Sikeliot]

Don't forget about the Nordid influence in and around Palermo.

Northern European genes in Sicily don't exceed 15%, even in Palermo.. although places like Catania have below 10%.

[Loki]

Renaissance Italy = superior Italy. That is, Italy north of Rome.

[Smeagol]

Don't forget about the Nordid influence in and around Palermo.

Well there is some minor Nordoid influence from the Normans, but even Palermo is predominantly Mediterranid-Alpinid-Dinarid.

[Loki]

Well there is some minor Nordoid influence from the Normans, but even Palermo is predominantly Mediterranid-Alpinid-Dinarid.

Yes, it is still minor, but there definitely is an influence there that is worth mentioning.

[Loki]

Northern European genes in Sicily don't exceed 15%, even in Palermo.. although places like Catania have below 10%.

15% is significant enough to mention.

[Sikeliot]

15% is significant enough to mention.

It's the lowest amount in all of Europe save the rest of Sicily and Calabria, so I can't imagine it has that much influence over peoples' looks.

[Loki]

It's the lowest amount in all of Europe save the rest of Sicily and Calabria, so I can't imagine it has that much influence over peoples' looks.

It must have, because there is a minority of blond Sicilians.

[Peyrol]

Northern European genes in Sicily don't exceed 15%, even in Palermo.. although places like Catania have below 10%.

I think Loki is talking about phenotypes, not strictly about genetic.

A good example of light palermitan is the boss/godfather Bernardo Provenzano.

I can see even some baltid influence.

http://withfriendship.com/images/i/44913/Bernardo_Provenzano-pic.jpg

[Sikeliot]

It must have, because there is a minority of blond Sicilians.

Well yes, but I don't know if the 4% more North Euro in Palermo could make the difference.

[Loki]

Well yes, but I don't know if the 4% more North Euro in Palermo could make the difference.

It certainly has a phenotypical influence in Palermo, and that is derived from the Normans. Don't get stuck up on genetic studies, which is still based on low samples.

[Loki]

In any case, progressiveness, creativity and genius among Italians seem to be linked to the Dinaric race, which is common in Northern Italy but rare in Southern Italy.

[Sikeliot]

It certainly has a phenotypical influence in Palermo, and that is derived from the Normans. Don't get stuck up on genetic studies, which is still based on low samples.

But you do know that there is also more Armenoid influence there too. Neither Nordid nor Armenoid are common in Messina, where my family is from.

[Smeagol]

I Don't get stuck up on genetic studies, which is still based on low samples.

That's true, that is one of the problems with the genetic studies. Anyway All racial types have more to do with just a specific set of genes rather than general genetic relations. They are adaptations primarily, rather than ancestral groups. they can be both, but they don't have to be.

[Smeagol]

In any case, progressiveness, creativity and genius among Italians seem to be linked to the Dinaric race, which is common in Northern Italy but rare in Southern Italy.

Dante was a textbook Dinarid.

[Ibericus]

Well, someone argued that the Andalusians might have genetic Roman ancestry, but look at their results next to central Italians and you will see it is unlikely. I didn't say ALL Andalusians were sent to Morocco but surely some were. Given the repopulation from the north we do not know if Andalusia today is what it was 600 years ago, genetically.
Yeah I know that, mainly because Central Italian R1b is U152, whereas Andalusian R1b is the Iberian branch, and U152 in Andalusia is extremely low, thus roman ancestry is unlikely or very limited.

[Empecinado]

Also much of the original population of Andalusia got expelled to Morocco during the Reconquista for refusing to convert back to Christianity, and being replaced with people from northern Spain.

One king entered into Granada lands and brough back to Aragon with 10.000 Christians living there, whom settled alongside the Ebro valley and centuries later some of them participied in the repopulation of Valencia, Murcia and Eastern Andalucia.

[Raikaswinþs]

Well, someone argued that the Andalusians might have genetic Roman ancestry, but look at their results next to central Italians and you will see it is unlikely. I didn't say ALL Andalusians were sent to Morocco but surely some were. Given the repopulation from the north we do not know if Andalusia today is what it was 600 years ago, genetically. That would be you, by saying that Spanish Romans were not Spanish people but Romans living in Spain. Secondly, you did say the the majority of Andalusians got deported to Marocco (I assume you mean the Maghreb, since Marocco did not exsist back then) which is a laughable claim, again proof that you spend more time here trolling than reading actual books or doing any actual research.

The vast majority of Spanish Muslims were the same Spanish people that were Roman citizens before. They converted to Islam massively and they converted back to Christianity. Do you start understanding what's going on here? There's a continuity in the genetic base of the Spanish pizza since pre-roman times.

Spain was a Roman province and a Caliphate province, made of Roman citizens first, Cordobese citizens then, but all in all, it was the same people. The presence of Arabs, Romans or Visigoths in Spain was never big enough to replace the native population, whose genetic is largely consistent today with that of pre-roman peoples such as Tartessians, Celts and Iberians.

What it was said here is that Spain (as you can see in the map) Was the second most important centre of the empire, with the highest concentration of Roman settlements , a key area for farming and mining, provider of some of the best soldiers of the empire, and mother to Emperors, poets, bards, musicians, dancers, engineers, merchants...etc. Spanish people weren't of course central italians, where would you understand that from what it has been said here? They just happened to be full roman citizens; Spain was pivotal to the empire.

As for your suggestion that all or most acomplished Hispanii were of actually of roman origin...it says it all about how much you have read about the Roman Empire or about Spain, or what being Roman meant. How can someone so misinformed make so many claims and talk with such security? you have no idea what you are talking about , kid!

Italians and Hispanii considered themselves to be citizens of the same nation and regard themselves as akin. There were thousands of Hispanii living in Rome and also many Romans living in Baetica, but of course not enough of them to make a significant, everlasting mark on each other's DNA. Trajan and Hadrian were Hispanii of Italic background, and got to be Roman emperors. Marcus Aurelius was a Roman of Hispanic background, and got to be an Emperor as well. It was all about citizenship.

[The King, I am]

Most culturally foreign to Europe, Italy or Spain?

Neither

[Empecinado]

That would be you, by saying that Spanish Romans were not Spanish people but Romans living in Spain. Secondly, you did say the the majority of Andalusians got deported to Marocco (I assume you mean the Maghreb, since Marocco did not exsist back then) which is a laughable claim, again proof that you spend more time here trolling than reading actual books or doing any actual research.



King Alfonso I of Aragon in his raid against Al-Andalus brought back 10,000 Christians who lived there to repopulate the Ebro valley and the Almoravids expelled almost all Christians to the Maghreb.

And with the Christian advance towards the south, the Muslims were moving towards the last Islamic stronghold: the kingdom of Granada, except those of Aragon and Valencia who remained on their land. After the revolt of the Alpujarras, most Granadians emigrated or were deported to the nearby kingdom of Valencia and Murcia, to be driven a century later to the Maghreb.

This means that most of the original population of Andalucia disappeared and was replaced by settlers coming from northern Spain and border kingdoms.

[Peyrol]

Dante was a textbook Dinarid.

Typical central italian (tuscan-umbrian-latian) nose.


Like Giorgio Chiellini (from Pisa)

http://cdn.blogosfere.it/fantamania/images/Giorgio-Chiellini%20nazio.jpg

[Raikaswinþs]

King Alfonso I of Aragon in his raid against Al-Andalus brought back 10,000 Christians who lived there to repopulate the Ebro valley and the Almoravids expelled almost all Christians to the Maghreb.

And with the Christian advance towards the south, the Muslims were moving towards the last Islamic stronghold: the kingdom of Granada, except those of Aragon and Valencia who remained on their land. After the revolt of the Alpujarras, most Granadians emigrated or were deported to the nearby kingdom of Valencia and Murcia, to be driven a century later to the Maghreb.

This means that most of the original population of Andalucia disappeared and was replaced by settlers coming from northern Spain and border kingdoms.

I think the mistake you are doing here (perhaps unintentionally) is confusing Al Andalus , the state that covered most of Spain for a good few centuries before it was eventually split into Taifa Kingdoms and then unified again under Christian authority, with Andalusia, a contemporary Autonomous region completely made up much in the same way Castilla y Leon was.

The Caliphate of Al Andalus was a Spanish muslim state initiated by the military expansion of the Moors which were invited by certain Visigoth lords to help them in their internal disputes. But once they arrived they decided that they would become the new rulers instead, and the Spaniards supported them to a large extent, largely because they were sick of the Visigoths, and during and after the conquest, converted massively to Islam, which was at the time a much more "progressive" religion than the one represented by Visigith Bishops.

Most of the conversions of course, had to do with pleasing the new rulers and advance socially. The myth of "convicencia de las tres culturas" was nothing but that, a myth. For the most part it was Spaniards, of one and only one culture, who happened to had separate religions (both religions were very similar anyway, and both brought by Imperial powers). Those who became muslims had it easier. Those who remained Christians, were second class citizens and often subject to atrocious abuse (opposite thing happened in the "Reconquered" territories).And about the Jews...well, they were either very wealthy, or targeted and abused by authorities "segun el momento". But that's how Jews do.

Al Andalus was never depleted. Some areas, which may or may not correspond with some of today's Andalusia but not with the whole or even a big part of Al-Andalus , did suffer depopulation , and received waves of new settlers. But not even the most depopulated areas were completely devoid of people. The new settlers not always came from the North of Spain, but often from neighbouring areas.

The genetic uniformity of Spaniards predates written history and had little to do with the Reconquista.

[Prince Carlo]

In any case, progressiveness, creativity and genius among Italians seem to be linked to the Dinaric race, which is common in Northern Italy but rare in Southern Italy.

Nah creativity and genius are linked with the percentage of light eyes. The lighter, the better.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Nah creativity and genius are linked with the percentage of light eyes. The lighter, the better.

Many of my relatives have light eyes and hair, especially from my dad's side most are light eyes with light brown hair. the eyes being from green to blue and hazel. so that being said, they are better than 80% of Mexico. :D
example:
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/yoyochickenkfc/norma-v_zps2f5aec36.gif
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/yoyochickenkfc/r5y5yu_zps0ec7c1ac.jpg
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/yoyochickenkfc/NichelleV418_n_zps_zpsa39b0c66.jpg
http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/yoyochickenkfc/kjkh_zps9ff25301.jpg

[Peyrol]

Nah creativity and genius are linked with the percentage of light eyes. The lighter, the better.

Percentages of light eyes by regions (1907 numbers):

Veneto/Friuli 41,4%
Piemonte/Valle d'Aosta 40%
Lombardia 37,2%
Liguria 29,6%
Emilia-Romagna 31,2%
Umbria 32,8%
Toscana 31,5%
Marche 31,3%
Lazio 26,2%
Abruzzo/Molise 28,5%
Campania 25,6%
Puglia 26,4%
Basilicata 23,1%
Calabria 19,6%
Sicilia 23,7%
Sardegna 13,9%


Tuscany only 1 out of 3 people, but they produced about 50% of our geniouses alone, as region...:laugh:

[Empecinado]

Al Andalus was never depleted. Some areas, which may or may not correspond with some of today's Andalusia but not with the whole or even a big part of Al-Andalus , did suffer depopulation , and received waves of new settlers. But not even the most depopulated areas were completely devoid of people. The new settlers not always came from the North of Spain, but often from neighbouring areas.

The genetic uniformity of Spaniards predates written history and had little to do with the Reconquista.

At the time of the conquest the lands of Al Andalus were not depopulated, but gradually there were Muslims migrating to Granada, as new Christian settlers were arriving. We are aware of many areas that were depopulated as the insufficient number of Christian settlers, and as the authorities tried to stop the Muslim exodus reducing their taxes. We also have evidence of the existence of banditry and the existence of large forest masses and wildlife, indicating depopulation.

If we take a look of the different "Andalusian" (I mean the CCAA here) local cultures, we see that are a prolongation of its border regions. In accent, words, dances...for example, Almeria is like a extension of Murcia. This indicates that the bulk of population was made up of settlers from the neighbooring regions, and not of the original population who at that time were mostly Muslim converts.

[Ianus]

It certainly has a phenotypical influence in Palermo, and that is derived from the Normans. Don't get stuck up on genetic studies, which is still based on low samples.

Normans who settled in Sicily were most 4-5000 persons. After 1091, the muslim people in Sicily decreased in power and number, and to replace them were called a lot of immigrants from North Italy(Piemonte), who settled in the Central and East part of Sicily. Around 1250 the muslim element in Sicily was complitely annhihilated

[Peyrol]

Normans who settled in Sicily were most 4-5000 persons. After 1091, the muslim people in Sicily decreased in power and number, and to replace them were called a lot of immigrants from North Italy(Piemonte), who settled in the Central and East part of Sicily. Around 1250 the muslim element in Sicily was complitely annhihilated

The surname ''Provenzano'' (''from Provence'') is indeed of Piemontese-Niçoise origin, for example.

[Loki]

Normans who settled in Sicily were most 4-5000 persons.

For those years that's a lot of men. And they probably procreated a lot.

[Ianus]

For those years that's a lot of men. And they probably procreated a lot.

I red that analyzing surnames of noble families cocluded that Normans were more or less around these numbers. In fact they were assimilated in a short time, if they were so many it could not be happened.

[Peyrol]

Some lombard dialects are still spoken, even if they're almost dead

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards_of_Sicily


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_of_Sicily

[Raikaswinþs]

At the time of the conquest the lands of Al Andalus were not depopulated, but gradually there were Muslims migrating to Granada, as new Christian settlers were arriving. We are aware of many areas that were depopulated as the insufficient number of Christian settlers, and as the authorities tried to stop the Muslim exodus reducing their taxes. We also have evidence of the existence of banditry and the existence of large forest masses and wildlife, indicating depopulation.

If we take a look of the different "Andalusian" (I mean the CCAA here) local cultures, we see that are a prolongation of its border regions. In accent, words, dances...for example, Almeria is like a extension of Murcia. This indicates that the bulk of population was made up of settlers from the neighbooring regions, and not of the original population who at that time were mostly Muslim converts.

Neighbouring regions were made of the same people. Politically belonging to different administrations and having different religions, but the same people nonetheless. Most muslims converted to Christianity when their city "Changed hands". Many of them did move to Granada, (those for whom religion was more important than ancestry and land, mostly , although not exclusively, descent of the moorish invaders, the same people that would be eventually expelled in 92. But obviously not the majority. The repoppulation of the most afected areas as you pointed out was made with direct neighbours. As you also pointed out, the process was gradual. My dad's pueblo was emptied several times through history and then repopulated with people from neighbouring towns (many of which were descents from the original settlers nevertheless) This happened in many places and it was the most common case. We can't say therefore than the entire Badajoz was depopulated and repopulated with northerners (neither Seville , Cordoba or Cadiz). We can talk about repopulation of particular areas with peoples from their surroundings. Those repopulations can't be described as population replacement as the settlers were the same people (and often direct descents) as the people of the repopulated areas

[Empecinado]

Neighbouring regions were made of the same people. Politically belonging to different administrations and having different religions, but the same people nonetheless. Most muslims converted to Christianity when their city "Changed hands".

Many of them did move to Granada, (those for whom religion was more important than ancestry and land, mostly , although not exclusively, descent of the moorish invaders, the same people that would be eventually expelled in 92. But obviously not the majority. The repoppulation of the most afected areas as you pointed out was made with direct neighbours. As you also pointed out, the process was gradual. My dad's pueblo was emptied several times through history and then repopulated with people from neighbouring towns (many of which were descents from the original settlers nevertheless) This happened in many places and it was the most common case. We can't say therefore than the entire Badajoz was depopulated and repopulated with northerners (neither Seville , Cordoba or Cadiz). We can talk about repopulation of particular areas with peoples from their surroundings. Those repopulations can't be described as population replacement as the settlers were the same people (and often direct descents) as the people of the repopulated areas

This is not what chronicles say. When the Christians took a city they kicked out the walls the Muslim population and handed out the houses and terrains to the ones who participied in the conquest. These Muslims were forced to live in their own separate neighborhoods outside the walls and the ones who already lived outside the city both considered it to be a risk and prefered to move to Granada, where they would be more protected and would not be considered a second class citizens. This is what most of them did and the reasons I stated previously (authorities granting them tax exemptions, banditry, large forests...) prove that the depopulation was a fact, and this depopulation can be only explained by the Muslim exodus.

About Muslims and Christians being the same people, not true at all. Even if they shared some features from their common past, they had many different characteristics. Religion and mindset were different (in such times religion was far more important than it's nowadays), they spoke very different languages (usually they needed translators to understand each other), were mutually distrustful and never mixed. Even the Moriscos, who at least were nominally Christians and spoke the same language, were clearly different and that's why they were expelled.

[Raikaswinþs]

This is not what chronicles say. When the Christians took a city they kicked out the walls the Muslim population and handed out the houses and terrains to the ones who participied in the conquest. These Muslims were forced to live in their own separate neighborhoods outside the walls and the ones who already lived outside the city both considered it to be a risk and prefered to move to Granada, where they would be more protected and would not be considered a second class citizens. This is what most of them did and the reasons I stated previously (authorities granting them tax exemptions, banditry, large forests...) prove that the depopulation was a fact, and this depopulation can be only explained by the Muslim exodus.

About Muslims and Christians being the same people, not true at all. Even if they shared some features from their common past, they had many different characteristics. Religion and mindset were different (in such times religion was far more important than it's nowadays), they spoke very different languages (usually they needed translators to understand each other), were mutually distrustful and never mixed. Even the Moriscos, who at least were nominally Christians and spoke the same language, were clearly different and that's why they were expelled.

The Arabs and the Berber obviously did not spoke Latin or Mozarabic. The cultural differences were great indeed. I am talking about the average Spanish muslim though, who, biologically, was no different from the Christian Neighbour. Also, we know that some areas did not last long under Muslim control whereas other Areas resisted until the late XV century. There's a big difference therefore in the range of "Islamification" of society.

The Moriscos were of Arab and mixed stock, and formed cohesive communities after the Reconquista. Specially in cities like Valencia. That's why they were easily identifiable and targeted. A shame if you ask me. The expuslion of the Jew's was not as negative as people insist. Jewish were not very productive outside their community. Moriscos though were very important indeed. About 40.000 of the 150.000 expelled settled permanently in France.

[Empecinado]

The Arabs and the Berber obviously did not spoke Latin or Mozarabic. The cultural differences were great indeed. I am talking about the average Spanish muslim though, who, biologically, was no different from the Christian Neighbour. Also, we know that some areas did not last long under Muslim control whereas other Areas resisted until the late XV century. There's a big difference therefore in the range of "Islamification" of society.

I'm talking about cultural differences not genetic ones. The average Muslim in the 13th century spoke Algarabia, which was Arabic with many Latin words, impossible to understand for the Christians. Even in border areas like Murcia, where probably the number of Christians who understand it was higher than in any other part, was very widespread to use Jews as translators because most of the population was not able to understand Algarabia. In earlier stages they spoke dialects close to Mozarabic, though..


The Moriscos were of Arab and mixed stock, and formed cohesive communities after the Reconquista. Specially in cities like Valencia. That's why they were easily identifiable and targeted. A shame if you ask me. The expuslion of the Jew's was not as negative as people insist. Jewish were not very productive outside their community. Moriscos though were very important indeed. About 40.000 of the 150.000 expelled settled permanently in France.

They were exactly of the same ethnic origin than other Muslims. The Moriscos were the Muslims forced to convert upon the 16th century, but eventhough they were nominally Christians and spoke Castilian and Valencian most of them continued being Muslims quite openly (in Castilla except for Murcia most of them were better integrated and were truly Catholics), only intermarried among themselves and mutually hated Christians. Didn't know about the Moriscos in France, do you have any source?

[Ibericus]

The Moriscos were of Arab and mixed stock, and formed cohesive communities after the Reconquista. Specially in cities like Valencia. That's why they were easily identifiable and targeted. A shame if you ask me. The expuslion of the Jew's was not as negative as people insist. Jewish were not very productive outside their community. Moriscos though were very important indeed. About 40.000 of the 150.000 expelled settled permanently in France.
The moriscos were like you and me, of iberian stock, they just were muslim practicers into Christian territory, the expulsion of moriscos was in reality the expulsions of native people.
The moriscos of Aragon for example, expelled to Tunisia and were said to be very blonde and blue-eyed.

[Sikeliot]

King Alfonso I of Aragon in his raid against Al-Andalus brought back 10,000 Christians who lived there to repopulate the Ebro valley and the Almoravids expelled almost all Christians to the Maghreb.

And with the Christian advance towards the south, the Muslims were moving towards the last Islamic stronghold: the kingdom of Granada, except those of Aragon and Valencia who remained on their land. After the revolt of the Alpujarras, most Granadians emigrated or were deported to the nearby kingdom of Valencia and Murcia, to be driven a century later to the Maghreb.

This means that most of the original population of Andalucia disappeared and was replaced by settlers coming from northern Spain and border kingdoms.

So indeed much of original Andalusian population has its descendants now in North Africa, not Spain exactly as I said.

[Empecinado]

The majority of your ancestors were muslim Mozarabs. :D

:picard2:

Mozarabs were Christians living in Muslim lands.

[Sikeliot]

Normans who settled in Sicily were most 4-5000 persons. After 1091, the muslim people in Sicily decreased in power and number, and to replace them were called a lot of immigrants from North Italy(Piemonte), who settled in the Central and East part of Sicily. Around 1250 the muslim element in Sicily was complitely annhihilated

Sicilians only score 9-13% North Euro, much less than North Italians. So therefore before that migration, assuming it had any impact, Sicilians were probably like Cypriots genetically.

[Ianus]

Sicilians only score 9-13% North Euro, much less than North Italians. So therefore before that migration, assuming it had any impact, Sicilians were probably like Cypriots genetically.

It's extimated that migrations from North Italy between XII and XIII century involved 200.000 persons, quite rilevant considering the population of the Island at these times.

[Peyrol]

It's extimated that migrations from North Italy between XII and XIII century involved 200.000 persons, quite rilevant considering the population of the Island at these times.

That's quite unusual, XII century Piemont had 300,000 people maximum...

[Ianus]

That's quite unusual, XII century Piemont had 300,000 people maximum...

The immigration lasted two centuries. However that were quite numerous, according some chronicles in 1168 Lombard cities gave 20.000 men to the Sicilian army.

[Peyrol]

The immigration lasted two centuries. However that were quite numerous, according some chronicles in 1168 Lombard cities gave 20.000 men to the Sicilian army.

Most of the ''lombard soldiers'' were scotts and english mercenaries...do you know the origin of the lombard surname ''Scotti''?

[Ianus]

Most of the ''lombard soldiers'' were scotts and english mercenaries...do you know the origin of the lombard surname ''Scotti''?

There are some theories, one derive this surnem from the Scoti, ancestors of Scottish people, an other fron apheresis of medieval names like Fosco, Fiesco, Brasco ecc.

[Peyrol]

There are some theories, one derive this surnem from the Scoti, ancestors of Scottish people, an other fron apheresis of medieval names like Fosco, Fiesco, Brasco ecc.

These are some of the outdated fascist writing, created in a time when they tried to demostrate that everyone here was indigenous from 1000000 A.C. :lol:

They even tried to push the theory that the surname ''Giuliani'' derived from the Gens Iulia...:lol:

[Sikeliot]

In order for the North Italian migrants to have had a genetic impact on Sicily in any large amount, given where Sicilians genetically cluster now, they would have originally had to have been Cypriots or Levantines practically.. is that really practical?

[Peyrol]

In order for the North Italian migrants to have had a genetic impact on Sicily in any large amount, given where Sicilians genetically cluster now, they would have originally had to have been Cypriots or Levantines practically.. is that really practical?

The north italian input is mostly from paternal line, unlike the Arbereshe who migrated there with families and childrens.

[Sikeliot]

The north italian input is mostly from paternal line, unlike the Arbereshe who migrated there with families and childrens.

So it might have added maybe 5% total of northern Italian ancestry in the long run. I always assumed most of the Lombard communities were isolated.

Either way, the average Sicilian genetic result is similar to both the Calabrese and to Greek islanders, so any influence that happened in Sicily but not in Calabria but is not evident in either's genetic result probably didn't have much impact.

I'd assume the last great influence on the genes came from the Byzantine Greeks, including Hellenized Syrians.

[Lurker]

Having most culturally foregin influences? Spain. Language has some words that come from Arabic. Razias. Alcaide. I don't know if they exist in Italian.

[Sikeliot]

Having most culturally foregin influences? Spain. Language has some words that come from Arabic. Razias. Alcaide. I don't know if they exist in Italian.

Sicilian and the dialects it influenced, like Calabrese, have some of them but fewer than in Spanish.

[Peyrol]

The discussion is about the whole Italy, not only this tiny island.

[Incal]

Because many parts of the island people sell things in the streets and there are not really "stores" as we know them here.

LOL. Sell things in the streets = Markets.

[Szegedist]

Italian heritage and culture is one of the most important and influential in Europe.

While Spaniards are descendants of Arabs, Berbers and other sand dwellers.

No contest.

[Szegedist]

Flamenco is from Spanish origin, nor Arab neither Gypsy. 99,9999% of Spaniards hate Flamenco.
Muslims ruled the land, not the ancestors of the Spaniards.
You have the Turbofolk in Balkans.
Spain and Italy are culturally 100% European, unlike other countries with non Indoeuropean languages, such as Finland and Hungary.
Balkan countries still remain a lot of non-European customes... food, drinks, clothing...
English Fish and Cheaps, typical English food by excellence, is from Jewish origin.
etc
Typical Mongol thread from a person with Mongol phenotype ie non European :icon_lol:



Modern day Spaniards are Basques that got raped by Moors, none of them are Indo-European.

Your culture is more similar to Algeria, Morocco, Egypt than European cultures, such as Italy.

[alnortedelsur]

Modern day Spaniards are Basques that got raped by Moors, none of them are Indo-European.

Your culture is more similar to Algeria, Morocco, Egypt than European cultures, such as Italy.

The next video resumes the truth about our people and culture, and pay very close attention to the very end of the video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFNN9uFOeX0

You are very STUPID, and a big IGNORANT!!

[Raikaswinþs]

Modern day Spaniards are Basques that got raped by Moors, none of them are Indo-European.

Your culture is more similar to Algeria, Morocco, Egypt than European cultures, such as Italy.

what was her name again Szegedist? the Spanish girl that hurt you I mean

[Anthropologique]

You moron, the article "El" is from Latin, not from arabic. And flamenco is gypsy, not arabic.

Stupidity knows no bounds in this shit kicking group.

[Anthropologique]

The guy is brain damaged ... and dumb as a retarded monkey.

[Sizzo]

Italy and Spain are not 2 monolithic systems. It doesn't make sense talking about "Italy" vs. "Spain".

[Peyrol]

Italy and Spain are not 2 monolithic systems. It doesn't make sense talking about "Italy" vs. "Spain".

Indeed

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Romance_20c_en.png




and, obviously...


http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/images/newshome/gpd_2008_big.png

[Raikaswinþs]

At my workplace it is more frequent that Italian customers think I am one of their own and start speaking in Italian than Spanish customers doing the same. Actually with Spaniards it rarely ever happens. I look 100% Spanish. For me that says a lot.

Lived in Seville for 6 years. Thousands of Italians there. They couldn't be happier or more integrated. Some of my best friends from Uni are Italians. This kind of discussions only happen in the internet, and almost always started by non Italians/Iberians.

[Szegedist]

what was her name again Szegedist? the Spanish girl that hurt you I mean


The next video resumes the truth about our people and culture, and pay very close attention to the very end of the video:



You are very STUPID, and a big IGNORANT!!


I have travelled to Spain so I know more about it than you think.
Anyway, I come into this thread and first thing I see are anti-Hungarian posts, so don't start crying to me, as I didn't start this.

[Raikaswinþs]

I have travelled to Spain so I know more about it than you think.
Anyway, I come into this thread and first thing I see are anti-Hungarian posts, so don't start crying to me, as I didn't start this.

Anti-Hungarian posts ? :S who in Spain or Italy spends 2 seconds thinking or talking about Hungary? We are complete strangers to each other.

I have met a few hungarians in real life. All of them loved Spain. One of them is a security guard at my work place. He often talks to me about how much he admires Franco (lol).

I have personally traveled through Hungary as a good friend of mine is a lorry driver and have accompanied him a couple of times in his trips. I found Hungary very Similar to the Castillian plateau: both in topography and how the countryside towns are organized. There were even many aesthetical similarities.

[Sikeliot]

At my workplace it is more frequent that Italian customers think I am one of their own and start speaking in Italian than Spanish customers doing the same. Actually with Spaniards it rarely ever happens. I look 100% Spanish. For me that says a lot.

Lived in Seville for 6 years. Thousands of Italians there. They couldn't be happier or more integrated. Some of my best friends from Uni are Italians. This kind of discussions only happen in the internet, and almost always started by non Italians/Iberians.

As a Sicilian-American I do not feel related to Spain nor the Spanish but that is just me. It might be due to historical elements and that I don't see any tangible elements of Spanish rule there (unlike in say Latin America and the Philippines) but that is just me.

Moreover I bet if I saw your photo, I wouldn't think you passed as Sicilian. Maybe you could pass in like, Liguria or something far northern..

[Anthropologique]

Only the most moronic people start threads like this. Usually, third-world types.

[Anthropologique]

Modern day Spaniards are Basques that got raped by Moors, none of them are Indo-European.

Your culture is more similar to Algeria, Morocco, Egypt than European cultures, such as Italy.

Get a life. What planet are you from man?

[Szegedist]

We are complete strangers to each other.


Wrong. Not for Italy: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?77362-Italian-Hungarian-relations

[TheBlondeSalad]

http://i.imgur.com/Fp4gDdX.jpg

[Szegedist]

Only the most moronic people start threads like this. Usually, third-world types.

Third World includes states like Sweden, Finland, Austria, Switzerland, Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World

[Peyrol]

The problem is that a sicilian american can't speak for 60 millions of real, european and mainland italians.

Here the connection with Spain is very deep ad ancient (a piemonteis noble was even king of Spain, even if only for 3 years, lol).

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadeo_I_de_Espa%C3%B1a

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadeo_I_of_Spain

We don't gove a fuck to ''aplogrups, admistures'' and other colonial bullshits.
Like if a random carboniose skeleton in a chromosome could influence the mind and a culture of a person, lol.

[Raikaswinþs]

As an American who has never lived in Spain or Italy I do not feel related to Spain nor the Spanish but that is just me.

fixed



It might be due to historical elements and that I don't see any tangible elements of Spanish rule there

Yeah. There are no historical connections between Sicily and Spain. You got me there.

Well except for when it was a Vasal Kingdom of the Crown of Aragon.During this period a sense of a Sicilian people and nation emerged, that is to say, the population was no longer divided between Greek, Arab and Latin peoples. Catalan was the language of the royal court, and Sicilian was the language of the parliament and the general citizenry. These circumstances continued until 1409 when because of failure of the Sicilian line of the Aragonese dynasty, the Sicilian throne became part of the Crown of Aragon.The island's first university was founded at Catania in 1434.

But that's it.

Oh jeez I forgot that this period was followed by the Spanish period which lasted another 400 years.But surely nothing happened here either.




(unlike in say Latin America and the Philippines)

I'm going to take a risk here by guessing you have never lived in Latin America either...



but that is just me.

It is probably just you :P



Moreover I bet if I saw your photo, I wouldn't think you passed as Sicilian. Maybe you could pass in like, Liguria or something far northern..

I do not have an Italian face. Despite this, Italians often mistake me for one of their own. I guess that living abroad, anything Mediterranean looking inspires homesickness.

[Szegedist]

Spanish Nazis are the funniest, they say they are pure descendants of Nordic Iberogoths and "celtogermanics" or whatever, while completely denying all other influence.

[Cail]

If I had to pick between the two - Spain for sure. Asking something like this about Italy is just ridiculous, it is literally the heart and soul of the European culture and history, I'd even say more so than any other country, including Germany and France (the other top-3).

Spain is not the most foreign either - there are many other countries significantly more alien to the European heartland (and I'm not even talking about holes like Albania here).

P.S. I'm not Italian and I'm unbiased here, despite having an Italian flag in my profile - but I've lived there for a few years and know very well what I'm talking about.

[Peyrol]

I never understood this american point...people like boarisch and faroese and icelanders, despite they've very few things in common and they lives 1000000000 miles away, are considered basically the same people ''because they're germanic''....but (-example-) a catalan and a ligurian* have absolutely nothing to do each others...lol...

(and i even picked the ''wrong example'' since oth are galloromance people-)

[Empecinado]

Spanish Nazis are the funniest, they say they are pure descendants of Iberogoths and "celtogermanics" or whatever, while completely denying all other influence.

Actually it's the opposite, are the envious and resentful retardeds who are always pointing out our alleged foreign influences. I asked at the begining of the thread what are those non-European influences...and still I'm waiting for the answers.

[Raikaswinþs]

Spanish Nazis are the funniest, they say they are pure descendants of Iberogoths and "celtogermanics" or whatever, while completely denying all other influence.

I doubt you have ever spoken with a real life Spanish Nazi. Those are a very rare breed. A generation of octogenaries of which there are very few survivors.
But if you talk about teenage internet clowns well...I have heard much wilder and creative stories of the Spanish origin than theirs. I like the really esoteric ones.This one is one of my favourites, http://lasxtribus.wordpress.com/. A lot of creativity there, goes well with popcorn.

By the way, do you know that the Holy Grail is in Spain and that Himmler himself tried to steal it in a secret Nazi operation?

Well this at least is a historical fact. (Even though assuming that there is really a Holy Grail also needs being in a poetic mood) :P

[Anthropologique]

I doubt you have ever spoken with a real life Spanish Nazi. Those are a very rare breed. A generation of octogenaries of which there are very few survivors.
But if you talk about teenage internet clowns well...I have heard much wilder and creative stories of the Spanish origin than theirs. I like the really esoteric ones.This one is one of my favourites, http://lasxtribus.wordpress.com/. A lot of creativity there, goes well with popcorn.

By the way, do you know that the Holy Grail is in Spain and that Himmler himself tried to steal it in a secret Nazi operation?

Well this at least is a historical fact. (Even though assuming that there is really a Holy Grail also needs being in a poetic mood) :P

Why are these shit kicking liars even allowed on this forum? This guy is one of the biggest morons around ... stupid as a salamander.

[Szegedist]

Actually it's the opposite, are the envious and resentful retardeds who are always pointing out our alleged foreign influences. I asked at the begining of the thread what are those non-European influences...and still I'm waiting for the answers.

North African and Arab influence.

Also according to some, non Indo-European = non white, therefore Basques and Aquitarians too.

[Szegedist]

Why are these shit kicking liars even allowed on this forum? This guy is one of the biggest morons around ... stupid as a salamander.

You are an idiotic American moron, I doubt you have been to either France, Italy or Spain. Anyway you and I never spoke before, so I suggest you shut your little yankee mouth. Thanks.

[Empecinado]

North African and Arab influence.

Also according to some, non Indo-European = non white, therefore Basques and Aquitarians too.

Where are this North African and Arab influences?

[Peyrol]

Someone can explain me my question?
I'm really curious about it.


I never understood this american point...people like boarisch and faroese and icelanders, despite they've very few things in common and they lives 1000000000 miles away, are considered basically the same people ''because they're germanic''....but (-example-) a catalan and a ligurian* have absolutely nothing to do each others...lol...

(and i even picked the ''wrong example'' since oth are galloromance people-)

[Smaug]

Both are one of the most Wuropean countries.

[Anthropologique]

North African and Arab influence.

Also according to some, non Indo-European = non white, therefore Basques and Aquitarians too.

Where? Check the genetics, genius. White = European, Baques are something like 97% Euro. The Arab element is less than half of what you find in Italy.
Seriously, have you just come here to make a fool of yourself?

[Peyrol]

Where? Check the genetics, genius. White = European, Baques are something like 97% Euro. The Arab element is less than half of what you find in Italy.
Seriously, have you just come here to make a fool of yourself?

Yep the famous and 15000 years old emirate of Al-Milan-Al-Lumbaardija and Friuhul-Venezhija-Julijaha and El-Trst...

[Szegedist]

Where? Check the genetics, genius. White = European, Baques are something like 97% Euro. The Arab element is less than half of what you find in Italy.
Seriously, have you just come here to make a fool of yourself?

Bro stick your haplogroups up your ass.

You only know these people by their haplogroup charts and Autosomnal DNA, have you ever been to either country? No off course not.

[aimar]

Portugal

[Sikeliot]

I do not have an Italian face. Despite this, Italians often mistake me for one of their own. I guess that living abroad, anything Mediterranean looking inspires homesickness.

Show me your photo, I bet you will not look like any Sicilian I have seen.

Anyway, what you proved is Spanish rule consolidated the people living there, but there is still no direct Spanish influence on food, music, people's appearances, the names of any towns or provinces, etc. You said that the notion of a "Sicilian" people originated under Spanish rule, but Sicilians do not consider Spain as the basis of their ethnogenesis. You are all run of the mill Western European in appearance, with (apart from Andalusia) a relatively homogenous culture, nothing like Sicily.

If I didn't know better, I'd think the Spanish never ruled there, although I can see evidence of Normans, Arabs, Greeks in multiple places.

[Anthropologique]

You are an idiotic American moron, I doubt you have been to either France, Italy or Spain. Anyway you and I never spoke before, so I suggest you shut your little yankee mouth. Thanks.

Obviously, fella, not only are you a stupid troll, with zero knowledge about anything of import, you obviously also know nothing about my background. I'm way more European than you'll ever be shit head! Don't bring your racial insecurities to this forum. Leave them at the psychiatrist's office where they belong. Just because I live in the States half the year that makes me American? Imbecile! Fuck with me and you fuck with hell ... I'll expose you for the sewer rat that you are, pathetic liar.

[Peyrol]

Show me your photo, I bet you will not look like any Sicilian I have seen.

Anyway, what you proved is Spanish rule consolidated the people living there, but there is still no direct Spanish influence on food, music, people's appearances, the names of any towns or provinces, etc.

If I didn't know better, I'd think the Spanish never ruled there, although I can see evidence of Normans, Arabs, Greeks in multiple places.

I think that one of the top 5 sicilian surname is meaningfull about spanish rule, don't you?

http://www.gens.info/lib/cog/maps/cognomi-prov/C/CATALANO.gif

[Anthropologique]

Bro stick your haplogroups up your ass.

You only know these people by their haplogroup charts and Autosomnal DNA, have you ever been to either country? No off course not.

Test me fuck face. I've travelled all over Western Europe and Italy - been to places you can't even pronounce, punk. You haven't a friggin clue. Now get the fuck out of here, child.

[Sikeliot]

I think that one of the top 5 sicilian surname is meaningfull about spanish rule, don't you?

http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?cognome=catalano&x=0&y=0

Show me any example of Sicilian food, music, the names of any provinces or towns, etc.

"Greco" is also a common surname, so what? A surname is just that.

[Szegedist]

Obviously, fella, not only are you a stupid troll, with zero knowledge about anything of import, you obviously also know nothing about my background. I'm way more European than you'll ever be shit head! Don't bring
your racial insecurities to this forum. Leave them at the psychiatrist's office where hey belong. Just because I live in the States half the year that makes me American?
Imbecile! Fuck with me and you fuck with hell ... I'll expose you for the sewer rat your, pathetic liar.


Ok, whatever you say gypsy boy. The racially insecure one is you, the one whose skin/hair/eyes is darker than my early morning shit, but at the same time you are a retarded Nordicist who tries to whiten itself up and darken up everyone, especially Italians.

What is your name? Abdul Hussen El-Cristianovjejo? You moorish leftover.

[Szegedist]

Test me fuck face. I've travelled all over Western Europe and Italy - been to places you can't even pronounce, punk. You haven't a friggin clue. Now get the fuck out of here, child.

Yes, its obvious that you are an American. I have been to far more places than you,I doubt you can even find Italy or France on the map.

[Peyrol]

Show me any example of Sicilian food, music, the names of any provinces or towns, etc.

"Greco" is also a common surname, so what? A surname is just that.

So, it's meaningful about ancestry. That's all.
In this country at least.

Even many ''Romano'' of south Italy in reality are derived from the nickname ''Romanoi'', so ''Byzantine''. Not necessarily romans from rome.

[Raikaswinþs]

Spanish Nazis couldn't care less about Germans blonde masturbations and racial complexes. They went there to do a job. And what a job they did. Leningrad only resisted 2 years because of them. They were the most decorated non-German division of the Wehrmacht

Hitler referred to the division as "equal to the best German ones". During his table talks, he also said:

"To troops, the Spaniards are a crew of ragamuffins. They regard a rifle as an instrument that should not be cleaned under any pretext. Their sentries exist only in principle. They don't take up their posts, or, if they do take them up, they do so in their sleep. When the Russians arrive, the natives have to wake them up. But the Spaniards have never yielded an inch of ground. One can't imagine more fearless fellows. They scarcely take cover. They flout death. I know, in any case, that our men are always glad to have Spaniards as neighbours in their sector.

Later when Hitler considered an invasion of Spain to remove Franco and replace him with Agustín Muñoz Grandes he decided against it, saying "The Spaniards are the only tough Latins. I would have a guerrilla war in my rear."

wikipedia is your friend bud


The Spanish Nazis would kill a German Nazi to save and protect a Spanish communist. Why? Porque son Espanoles, cojones! This, as a matter of fact , was a behavior reported by many republican prisoners and survivirs.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFNHQTxasAo

Also Franco saved thousands of Jews through diplomatic effort. Budapest was one of the places were the Spanish emassador protected Jewish citizens.

This is how much Spanish nazis care about German's mental wanks

[Sikeliot]

So, it's meaningful about ancestry. That's all.
In this country at least.

Even many ''Romano'' of south Italy in reality are derived from the nickname ''Romanoi'', so ''Byzantine''. Not necessarily romans from rome.

Well apparently it wasn't enough to make them cluster on a PCA plot near Spain was it?

Point is, and I have been saying it for years, Sicilians will say they are Greek, Latin, and Norman, and SOME of them will mention the Arab rule. Most of them do not even think about the Spanish period since it's less obvious... Sicily doesn't have anything shared with Spain that is not also shared with Italy, so it is not evident that there was Spanish rule just by walking around.

[Anthropologique]

Ok, whatever you say gypsy boy. The racially insecure one is you, the one whose skin/hair/eyes is darker than my early morning shit, but at the same time you are a retarded Nordicist who tries to whiten itself up and darken up everyone, especially italians.

What is your name? Abdul Hussen El-Cristianovjejo? You moorish leftover.

So says the moron who can't tell truth from fiction. Who the fuck is darkening anyone, clown? The genetic studies are what they are and the same for phenotypes. Don't like the state of affairs? Here's a list of places to contact:

Genetics and Biological Anthropology Depts.


1)Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore.

2)Harvard University
Cambridge, MA

3) Duke University
Durham, N.C.

4) University of Chicago
Chicago, Ill.

You can yell your BS, insults and lies from the rooftops but it won't change reality, bizarro. You are clearly a racially complexed sociopath who
believes his own lies. Spaniards / Iberians are NOTHING like what you want them to be. Got it! Now get along and play in highway traffic or join you friends in the sand lot.

[Szegedist]

Spanish Nazis couldn't care less about Germans blonde masturbations and racial complexes. They went there to do a job. And what a job they did. Leningrad only resisted 2 years because of them. They were the most decorated non-German division of the Wehrmacht

Hitler referred to the division as "equal to the best German ones". During his table talks, he also said:

"To troops, the Spaniards are a crew of ragamuffins. They regard a rifle as an instrument that should not be cleaned under any pretext. Their sentries exist only in principle. They don't take up their posts, or, if they do take them up, they do so in their sleep. When the Russians arrive, the natives have to wake them up. But the Spaniards have never yielded an inch of ground. One can't imagine more fearless fellows. They scarcely take cover. They flout death. I know, in any case, that our men are always glad to have Spaniards as neighbours in their sector.

Later when Hitler considered an invasion of Spain to remove Franco and replace him with Agustín Muñoz Grandes he decided against it, saying "The Spaniards are the only tough Latins. I would have a guerrilla war in my rear."

wikipedia is your friend bud


The Spanish Nazis would kill a German Nazi to save and protect a Spanish communist. Why? Porque son Espanoles, cojones! This, as a matter of fact , was a behavior reported by many republican prisoners and survivirs.

v=pFNHQTxasAo

Also Franco saved thousands of Jews through diplomatic effort. Budapest was one of the places were the Spanish emassador protected Jewish citizens.

This is how much Spanish nazis care about German's mental wanks


On what planet is the Spanish Blue Division "nazis"?

[Peyrol]

Sorry Sikeliot but the topic isn't about ''Sicilia'', but ''Italia'' as whole.

I shown the example of the piemonteis king of Spain...but i can even bring our greatest war hero, the general Armando Diaz, who defeated austro-hungarian-german power in WWI (he was a neapolitan Duke of ancient cantabrian descents)...our fascist politician Giorgio Almirante (ancestors from Caceres), the neapolitan noble family of Carafa...etc etc.

[Szegedist]

blah blah blah blah.

You are one of the morons Peyrol described, all you do is post Haplogroup charts and autosomnal DNA, with 0 knowledge of anything real.

Also, why you so mad, bro?

[Anthropologique]

Yes, its obvious that you are an American. I have been to far more places than you,I doubt you can even find Italy or France on the map.

Show me where it's obvious, fool? LMAO. What a clueless mother fucker you are. If I'm American, then you're a friggin pygmy.

[Szegedist]

Show me where it's obvious, fool? LMAO. What a clueless mother fucker you are. If I'm American, then you're a friggin pygmy.

It's so obvious that you are a lowest of the New Worlders, why do you hide it?

You wouldn't know what is European even if it hit you in the face.

[Anthropologique]

You are one of the morons Peyrol described, all you do is post Haplogroup charts and autosomnal DNA, with 0 knowledge of anything real.

Also, why you so mad, bro?

Anything real? You're obviously a poorly educated dunce with racial issues. I've seen more French, Iberians, Italians, British, Germans ... than you can ever imagine. I've travelled more than you can hope to travel in 3 life times.

Mad? I'm just annoyed at your gross stupidity. Fools need to keep their mouths shut. You're irrelevant.

[Sikeliot]

Sorry Sikeliot but the topic isn't about ''Sicilia'', but ''Italia'' as whole.

I shown the example of the piemonteis king of Spain...but i can even bring our greatest war hero, the general Armando Diaz, who defeated austro-hungarian-german power in WWI (he was a neapolitan Duke of ancient cantabrian descents)...our fascist politician Giorgio Almirante (ancestors from Caceres), the neapolitan noble family of Carafa...etc etc.

Well what I said extends to Calabria, Lucania and Apulia too. No tangible Spanish elements there either.

Naples is a different story of course.

[Peyrol]

Message of moderation:

can we please stop this useless quarry and return to the topic?

Thanks.

[Peyrol]

Well what I said extends to Calabria, Lucania and Apulia too. No tangible Spanish elements there either.

Naples is a different story of course.

The current king of Spain's surname is ''Borbones Dos Sicilias''..

[Sikeliot]

Someone with the surname "Diaz" cannot possibly be a full Italian.

[Anthropologique]

It's so obvious that you are a lowest of the New Worlders, why do you hide it?

You wouldn't know what is European even if it hit you in the face.

STFU, the circus just left town, stupid, insecure dolt. Keep showing us what a cretin you are. Fun and games ...

[Szegedist]

Anything real? You're obviously a poorly educated dunce with racial issues.


I am very likely to be better educated than you, yankee redneck, and I have no racial issues at all.


I've seen more French, Iberians, Italians, British, Germans ... than you can ever imagine.


I've travelled more than you can hope to travel in 3 life times.
No you haven't. The amount of countries I have been to is bigger than your entire vocabulary.


Fools need to keep their mouths shut. You're irrelevant.
Agreed, so shut the fuck up.

[Sikeliot]

The current king of Spain's surname is ''Borbones Dos Sicilias''..

Show me tangible elements in Sicilian culture -- music, folk dances, food, etc. that are Spanish.

I can think of the tarantella which is related to pizzica in Apulia and similar to many Cretan Greek dances. I can think of couscous which is also in North Africa, and I can think of various French influences in other foods. I can think of Greek influences in the music.

[Peyrol]

Again, Italy it isn't the deep south.

[Anthropologique]

Message of moderation:

can we please stop this useless quarry and return to the topic?

Thanks.

Then ban the fool who started this thread. Also, explain to him that lying will get him nowhere. This place is becoming worse by the day. COMICAL!!

[Szegedist]

Then ban the fool who started this thread. Also, explain to him that lying will get him nowhere. This place is becoming worse by the day. COMICAL!!

Baluarte was right, you really are an idiot :laugh: , now stop crying like a little baby.

[Sikeliot]

Again, Italy it isn't the deep south.

I will stop asking when someone actually does what I said, since people have resorted to "they founded a university", "the king of Naples had "Sicily" as part of his name" etc. I mean music, food, things people know and care about.