[SPLIT from what ethnic group do you relate the most with?]Your Familiarity/Relatedness Map

[Zyklop]

Mod note: Original thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11236)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/Zyklop/map_of_Europe.png

[Electronic God-Man]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/Zyklop/map_of_Europe.png

LOL. Why is Poland the same color as Turkey and North Africa? And Croatia is closer to you than the Czech Republic?

Am I reading this wrong?

[Zyklop]

LOL. Why is Poland the same color as Turkey and North Africa? And Croatia is closer to you than the Czech Republic?

Am I reading this wrong?Probably. It's not about geographic distance.

[Electronic God-Man]

Probably. It's not about geographic distance.

That's understood, but you think Polaks are genetically and culturally more distant than Spaniards, Greeks, and Ukrainians?

[Loki]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/Zyklop/map_of_Europe.png

You feel closer to English and Scandinavians than to fellow Germans? Interesting. :)

[Zyklop]

You feel closer to English and Scandinavians than to fellow Germans? Interesting. :)No, does the colour scheme suggest so? Light Green -> Medium Green -> Dark Green

That's understood, but you think Polaks are genetically and culturally more distant than Spaniards, Greeks, and Ukrainians?As far as feeling related to is concerned yes. Culturally anyway of course.

[Loki]

No, does the colour scheme suggest so? Light Green -> Medium Green -> Dark Green

Ah now I see, sorry. I thought the dark green was the closest. Makes more sense now. :)

[Zyklop]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/Zyklop/map_of_Europe.png
The map shows my views regarding cultural and historical relatedness as well as subjective feelings of likeability.

I should have added a colour between yellow and dark green but couldn't think of one that fit. I also forgot to add South-Tyrol as light green.

Iceland should be coloured the same as Scandinavia but since it's a very isolated culture I chose one level lower. The Baltic countries are closer because of their historic connection with Germany, that's also why England is not contrasted from Ireland and Scotland which both are more likeable than England from a German view.
Croats are by far the most likeable Slavs and therefore highlighted. I wasn't sure if Sardinians should be on the same level as Sicily. Canada would be yellow, the US orange.

[kwp_wp]

The map shows my views regarding cultural and historical relatedness as well as subjective feelings of likeability.

I should have added a colour between yellow and dark green but couldn't think of one that fit. I also forgot to add South-Tyrol as light green.

Iceland should be coloured the same as Scandinavia but since it's a very isolated culture I chose one level lower. The Baltic countries are closer because of their historic connection with Germany, that's also why England is not contrasted from Ireland and Scotland which both are more likeable than England from a German view.
Croats are by far the most likeable Slavs and therefore highlighted. I wasn't sure if Sardinians should be on the same level as Sicily. Canada would be yellow, the US orange.

You don't like Poland and Poles, it's obvious...
I see in your attitude strong historical impact - maybe even reminiscence of IIWW, how old are you btw?
I thought people of present generation have managed to get rid of such a prejudices...correct me if I'm wrong

For one thing I must thank you: sincerity

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by kwp_wp
I thought people of present generation have managed to get rid of such a prejudices...correct me if I'm wrong

Lol! You have a lot to learn about human nature.:D

Personally I don’t mind the French (looks around)…..but don’t tell anyone I said so, (out loud) thoroughly horrendous people the only good Frenchman is sliding off an English blade. All true Englishmen hate the French....it's tradition.

As for Germans, largely incomprehensible from my point of view, I actually study with a German woman at present and I’m never 100% what her mood is or whether she’s being funny or…, it’s not her personally when I was in Germany I spent most of my time non-plused by Germans as well. It’s nothing to do with the war, thirty six years before I was born it ended, it’s just a connection thing.

[Inese]

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/Zyklop/map_of_Europe.png

Hallo Zyklop!! :wave Ich möchte die Länder auch gerne so einfärben, dann wird es deutlicher. Hast du dafür ein Programm benutzt oder es per Hand gemacht?? Auf gute deutsch - lettische Freundschaft :nod

I asked him that i want to make a colored map also and how he made it dont bite me :hiding:

[Comte Arnau]

Just turning mine into a percentage map:


http://i484.photobucket.com/albums/rr207/chorchon/AP/0ap0mgr10.png

[Inese]

Zyklop helped me now i could make my own European map!! :wink


Light green: Extreme strong related with my mind
Dark green: Strong related with my mind
Yellow: Normal friendly related with my mind
Brown: A little sympathy in my mind
Red: No feeling of relationship
Black: Feelings of of strong dislike!!

http://i47.tinypic.com/2ypf7te.jpg

[Kadu]

Zyklop helped me now i could make my own European map!! :wink


Light green: Extreme strong related with my mind
Dark green: Strong related with my mind
Yellow: Normal friendly related with my mind
Brown: A little sympathy in my mind
Red: No feeling of relationship
Black: Feelings of of strong dislike!!

http://i47.tinypic.com/2ypf7te.jpg

But why the Polish?

[Loki]

My familiarity/relation map:

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/6813/map2.png

[Loki]

Loki loool :D It is my fault with Latvia!?? ^_^

Haha I admit that my only experience with any Latvians have been on the internet, so I have to draw conclusions from that. :p I have no other reference point. I met Lithuanians in London and they were nice.

I forgot to make Bosnia/Herzegovina a darker shade as well.

[Monolith]

But why the Polish?
Better yet, why the Macedonians? ;)

[Amarantine]

My familiarity/relation map:

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/6813/map2.png

is dark blue more related?

:p

and why Montenegro is turqese-it should be in the amarantine color...

[Cail]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1830/2ypf7te.jpg

[Absinthe]

How do you make those maps? I want one too!! :nicetongue

[Zyklop]

How do you make those maps? I want one too!! :nicetongue
Use the filling-tool of Gimp (http://www.gimp.org/) on a map. It automatically detects the borders.

[Osweo]

My familiarity/relation map:

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/6813/map2.png
But LOKI!!! :eek::eek::eek: Why Georgia?!?! :eek:
:p
They're not all Saakashvilis, you know. ;)

Magyar folk tales speak of him with great praise.
Even the older Germanic tales spoke about Attila and his people with great respect. I can't think of many examples off the top of my head, but there is at least a mention of your fine horses in Old English poetry from around the Ninth Century. :thumb001:

All this nonsense about terrible hordes from the east is a result of Classicising tendencies, not native tradition. The old Germanics allied with, served under and generally respected the Huns, from what I can gather.

Hun- is even an element in Germanic personal names, though I may be mistaken in simplistically analysing it as the ethnonym in question. Can anyone confirm or refute this? I'd like to see their argument! :D

********

As for the thread... Well, I started playing about with a map, but found it was too difficult. I can only really talk about individuals, and I've found good ones to relate to in all European countries, near enough. :shrug: Even ones I have some historical grudge against.

I have the most cultural affinity with those around the Irish Sea, I suppose, possibly down to a similar mentality and ethnic substrate.

... I just deleted a big chunk of text about a few nations I felt less connection with, but as I was writing, I remembered some individuals I'd met and worked with that didn't conform to this, so there you go! :D I love you all! :p

[Jarl]

I wish moderators would split this thread. With all my respect to Jarl, Zyklop and Inese I'm skipping their posts without reading.

I totally agree. This is getting ridiculous. I think people here already wasted too much time on futile emotional rants such as this, with scarce refernece to history but plenty of personal grudges. I, and most of us I think, have come to this forum to stay in touch with and enjoy the views of our fellow Europeans. Not to dig up the corpses again.

[Jarl]

you are the Polish braveheart :notworth:

Hahaha! Yeah! Thats what I like!!! :cool:

[Horka Ozul]

But LOKI!!! :eek::eek::eek: Why Georgia?!?! :eek:
:p
They're not all Saakashvilis, you know. ;)

Even the older Germanic tales spoke about Attila and his people with great respect. I can't think of many examples off the top of my head, but there is at least a mention of your fine horses in Old English poetry from around the Ninth Century. :thumb001:

All this nonsense about terrible hordes from the east is a result of Classicising tendencies, not native tradition. The old Germanics allied with, served under and generally respected the Huns, from what I can gather.

Hun- is even an element in Germanic personal names, though I may be mistaken in simplistically analysing it as the ethnonym in question. Can anyone confirm or refute this? I'd like to see their argument! :D

********

As for the thread... Well, I started playing about with a map, but found it was too difficult. I can only really talk about individuals, and I've found good ones to relate to in all European countries, near enough. :shrug: Even ones I have some historical grudge against.

I have the most cultural affinity with those around the Irish Sea, I suppose, possibly down to a similar mentality and ethnic substrate.

... I just deleted a big chunk of text about a few nations I felt less connection with, but as I was writing, I remembered some individuals I'd met and worked with that didn't conform to this, so there you go! :D I love you all! :p

Very good mentioning. Of course most germanic tribes were united against the romans, so when the huns of Attila shown signs of great threat against their common enemy, the romans, they allied with the huns, like as many other tribes. Of course today we have the negative image of the huns because most documents remained from the writers from the other side of the barricade, who were pro roman, pro papist (matter of fact the rise of the Pope as the supreme ruler over Europe for many centuries is because Attila and his allies destroyed all credibility of the roman emperor, when he personally managed to save the capital, managing to convince Attila to leave alone this major city). But I hope we are smart people, and can be selective and critical over early descriptions, and not take anything as actual fact :)

[Absinthe]

Okay, here's my very-very rough draft of how I feel about Europe and surroundings. (Thanks Zyklop!)

Not an "identify with" map, just a likeness map, based on travelling experience, personal preferences and personal stereotypes :)

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2829/myeurope.png

I have been there, and I absolutely love it!

I haven't been there but I would strongly like to go there in the near future.

I haven't been there and I would like to go there but it's not in my immediate plans.

I haven't been there, but I am very interested in seeing what's going on.

I've been there shortly and I liked it but I need more visits to settle my feelings about it.

I wouldn't mind going there but it's not in my top priorities.

I am somewhat indifferent, maybe I will get there someday but I am not sure.

Currently non-European territory that has stolen my heart!


*Actually I haven't been to Lithuania but I could not deselect it :p

* Actually, I've been in London once, and it was ok :eyes

* Constantinople

[Amarantine]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1830/2ypf7te.jpg

This is Bosnia, Cail...and now I am :grumpy:

[Cail]

That's not something personal against Serbs who live in Bosnia, i just dislike Islam in general, and Bosnia being the only Slavic muslim state makes me angry :<<<.

[Monolith]

That's not something personal against Serbs who live in Bosnia, i just dislike Islam in general, and Bosnia being the only Slavic muslim state makes me angry :<<<.
Orthodox and Catholic Christians combined still outnumber the Muslims in BiH. The fact that they can't stand each others is another story.

[W. R.]

Zyklop helped me now i could make my own European map!! :wink


Light green: Extreme strong related with my mind
Dark green: Strong related with my mind
Yellow: Normal friendly related with my mind
Brown: A little sympathy in my mind
Red: No feeling of relationship
Black: Feelings of of strong dislike!!

http://i47.tinypic.com/2ypf7te.jpg
I feel totally related to:
1. Belarusians;

related to:
2. Ukrainians
3. Lithuanians
4. Poles;

quite related to:
5. the other Slavic-speaking nations and Letts;

partially related to:
6. Estonians, Hungarians, Romanians, Germans;

somewhat related to:
7. other Christian nations of Europe.We both were wrong, Inese. According to most recent researches Letts constitute just another branch of the Belarusian people. :coffee: There are no people in this world which would be closer to us than you are, dear Latvian brothers and sisters.

http://i40.tinypic.com/28ataug.jpg

[Svanhild]

Strong closeness: Green
Medium closeness: Light Blueish :wink
Low closeness: Yellow
No closeness: Red

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/2716/kartchen.jpg

[Cail]

Why are Polish worse than other Slavs, and especially why are Slovak oO?

And surely Portugal and Balkans can't be on the same level as Turkey/North Africa?

[Jarl]

Why are Polish worse than other Slavs, and especially why are Slovak oO?

And surely Portugal and Balkans can't be on the same level as Turkey/North Africa?

;) Why bother? We are worse coz we won the 13-years war and created Prussia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/6/66/Jagiellonen.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Prussian_Homage.jpg

[Nodens]

Why are Polish worse than other Slavs, and especially why are Slovak oO?

Honest answers would result in a more personal confrontation than most here are willing to enter.

[Jarl]

Honest answers would result in a more personal confrontation than most here are willing to enter.

"Honest" answers have been given by Zyklop and Inese many times and in many threads. Cail should read them to find his answer.

[Ibericus]

Something like this :

http://img144.imageshack.us/img14

[Svanhild]

Why are Polish worse than other Slavs, and especially why are Slovak oO?
The history between our countries is, all things considered, mainly negative. Almost half of Poland is annexed German territory. Regardless of what the Polish side claims or has to say in that matter, that very fact remains the root of our mutual problems. This is aggravated by other chronic wounds like questions of expulsion, complete inability of acknowledging faults on the Polish side, incessantly self-victimisation of Polish people, ingratitude for completed compensations and a habitual demanding and maddening character.

And surely Portugal and Balkans can't be on the same level as Turkey/North Africa?
My decision was to use four gradations. I could have used more gradations but I wanted to avoid complexity. No closeness is the terminus. The red color is no indicator for the level of dislike on my part. I dislike Turkey more than Romania but the feeling of no closeness is the same.

[Pallantides]

delete

[Jarl]

Almost half of Poland is annexed German territory.

Yes. Just like half of Germany was (and still is) annexed Polabian/Lusatian/Polish/Pomeranian and OldPrussian territory ;)

[Svanhild]

Yes. Just like half of Germany was (and still is) annexed Polabian/Lusatian/Polish/Pomeranian and OldPrussian territory ;)
http://www.ursus-goldschmiede.de/Spieluhr-mini.jpg
Untwist the music box once again.

[Jarl]

http://www.ursus-goldschmiede.de/Spieluhr-mini.jpg
Untwist the music box once again.

You started! Now look at your post... it' totally one-sided ;)

[Äike]

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6813/map2.png

Dark Green = I relate with them a lot

Green = I relate with them

Sea Green = I mildly relate with them

Pale Turquoise = I don't relate with them

[Jarl]

Sea Green = I mildly relate with them[/B]


And who's that? Can't see on the map... Must be the Samoyeds, I presume?

[Äike]

And who's that? Can't see on the map... Must be the Samoyeds, I presume?

Icelanders and Latvians...


The Samoyeds of Northeastern Europe are genetically
different from all other Europeans, but their language
is Uralic and related, for example, to Finnish. The
complicated genetic-linguistic situation is probably a
result of a language shift in which the Samoyeds came
into close contact with populations speaking a Finno-
Ugric language. The result was a new language group,
the Samoyedic languages

[Jarl]

What do Estonians got to do with the Icelanders (or Norwegians for that matter)?

[Äike]

What do Estonians got to do with the Icelanders (or Norwegians for that matter)?

Ancient connections... Estonian Vikings are mentioned in the Icelandic sagas, thus Estonians and Icelanders interacted in the past. They're also a small numbered population, just like Estonians. Norway is a fellow Nordic country.

[Jarl]

Estonian Vikings???

[Äike]

Estonian Vikings???

Yeah... They were mostly from Saaremaa, or other Western-Estonian coastal areas.

Even today Saaremaa's coat of arms is this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Saaremaa_vapp.svg/215px-Saaremaa_vapp.svg.png

[Jarl]

;) They were Estonian sailors not Vikings. Following this type of reasoning Slavs from Rugen, Wolin, Kolobrzeg, Pomerania were also "Vikings". Or the Curonians from Latvia.

[Äike]

;) They were Estonian sailors not Vikings. Following this type of reasoning Slavs from Rugen, Wolin, Kolobrzeg, Pomerania were also "Vikings". Or the Curonians from Latvia.

They were called, Víkingr frá Esthland or Eastern Vikings in English. That's how E(a)stonia got it's name. The Eastern Vikings came from here and Estonia was called Esthland in the Icelandic sagas.

If the Scandinavian Vikings themselves considered Estonians, Vikings, then what do you, a Polack, know?

[Pallantides]

We just call them Baltic Pirates. :)

[Jarl]

They were called, Víkingr frá Esthland or Eastern Vikings in English. That's how E(a)stonia got it's name. The Eastern Vikings came from here and Estonia was called Esthland in the Icelandic sagas.

If the Scandinavian Vikings themselves considered Estonians, Vikings, then what do you, a Polack, know?

Whole Fennoscandia, Ingria and areas up to Novogrod were colonised by Scandinavians. Why are you assuming that the "Vikings from Estonia" were Estonians, and not simply Vikings from Estonia?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Viking_Expansion.svg

Although the map is bullshit in places, particularly in later Medieval settlements (no way Vikings colonised Prussia), it indicates that Estonian islands were colonised by Scandinavians already by the 8th century.

How do we really know if the "Vikings from Estland" were ethnic Estonians? It is a bit like claiming that Jomsborg Vikings were Slavs, because they came from predominantly Slavic-settled Pomerania.

[Äike]

Whole Fennoscandia, Ingria and areas up to Novogrod were colonised by Scandinavians. Why are you assuming that the "Vikings from Estonia" were Estonians, and not simply Vikings from Estonia?

Because they spoke Estonian... :rolleyes: and the Scandinavians never could get a foothold in Saaremaa, the Oeselians always defeated them.

have you ever read the Livonian chronicle?

[Jarl]

Because they spoke Estonian... :rolleyes: and the Scandinavians never could get a foothold in Saaremaa, the Oeselians always defeated them.

Is that so??? Then the map must be some total bullshit. ;)



have you ever read the Livonian chronicle?

By Henricus de Lettis? I actually read it. Does it say anything about Estonian Vikings? I don't think so....

[Äike]

Is that so??? Then the map must be some total bullshit. ;)



By Henricus de Lettis? I actually read it. Does it say anything about Estonian Vikings? I don't think so....

It said that the Oeselians spoke Estonian.

[Jarl]

It would be to get some source on these "vikings". However, if these islands were not some Scandinavian colonies, then I guess you might be right.

[Äike]

It would be to get some source on these "vikings". However, if these islands were not some Scandinavian colonies, then I guess you might be right.

If Oeselians would have been Swedes or such, then they wouldn't have fought against the Swedish crusaders so fiercely. ;) Nor would they have raided the Swedish capital :D

[Jamt]

If Oeselians would have been Swedes or such, then they wouldn't have fought against the Swedish crusaders so fiercely. ;) Nor would they have raided the Swedish capital :D

They may or may not have raided the Mälaren trading town Birka. I understand that you wish they did. Big brother complex and so on.

[Äike]

They may or may not have raided the Mälaren trading town Birka. I understand that you wish they did. Big brother complex and so on.

I was talking about Sigtuna, the Swedish "capital" at those times.

Around the 14th century, Stockholm and Uppsala got more powerful than Sigtuna, though.

I have never heard of any raids by Estonians done on Birka, but they might have, if you know more about this?

[Jamt]

All that is known is that Birka was raided and its stockades were burned. It might have been by anyone.

Sigtuna was burned by angry Lapps masquerading as Estonians, everybody knows that.

[Äike]

Sigtuna was burned by angry Lapps masquerading as Estonians, everybody knows that.

You're joking, right? :)

[Pallantides]

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4986/mhgg.jpg

:D

[Svanhild]

Why the love for Germany, Pallantides? :wink

[poiuytrewq0987]

The darker, the closer... the lighter, the further.

My Genetic Closeness Map

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/geneticclosness.png?t=1272305865

My Cultural Closeness Map

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/culturalcloseness.png?t=1272305866

My Friendship Map

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/innocent456/alignmap.png?t=1272305867

[Jarl]

Big brother complex and so on.

What if they really sacked Sigtuna?

[Äike]

What if they really sacked Sigtuna?

He was talking about Birka, while it's a historic fact that the Estonians sacked Sigtuna. I don't know anything about raids on Birka, though.

[Monolith]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4492&stc=1&d=1272316336

The darker the better.

[The Black Prince]

Based upon genetics, history, language and geography:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2j67nsy.png

[Jamt]

He was talking about Birka, while it's a historic fact that the Estonians sacked Sigtuna. I don't know anything about raids on Birka, though.

In your dreams :D. The sacking of Sigtuna 1187 are mentioned in several historical texts, the pirates’ are called Heathens and sometimes Kareler, no text mention Estonians.

[Pallantides]

Why the love for Germany, Pallantides? :wink

"Tyskerne dreit på alteret!"

greatest movie line ever.:D







I put Germany as black for lulz.

[Jamt]

The Estonian angle on the sacking of Sigtuna 1187 is old, nowadays historians speculate on Kareler from Novgorod. Here is what the Eriks Chronicle from 1320 has to say:

”Swerige haffde mykin vadha
aff karelom ok mykin onadha
The foro aff haffuit oc vp i mäle
bade i lugne ok swa i äle
alt hemelika jnnan swia skär
ok optast ä mz stylda här
en tyma fiöl them en then luna
at the brändo wp sightuna
Ok brändo thz swa alt i röther
at then stadhin fik ey än böther
Jon erchebiscop wart ther slägen
tess war mangin hedin fäghen
at them crisno gik swa illa i hand
thz gledde karela ok rytza land.”[8]

[Svanhild]

"Tyskerne dreit på alteret!"

greatest movie line ever.:D
Doesn't ring a bell. Which movie and what does it mean? :wink Tyskerne=Germans?

[Pallantides]

Doesn't ring a bell. Which movie and what does it mean? :wink Tyskerne=Germans?

Secondløitnanten
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108067/


"The Germans shat on the Alter"

[Albion]

I guess it goes in something like this order:

English (which I'am)
Manx
Welsh
Scottish
Cornish
Dutch
Icelanders
Germans
Scandinavian peoples
Austrians
Swiss
Bretons
Portugese
Spanish
Macedonians
etc...

Even though I'm English and the English are a Germanic people I feel a slightly more affinity towards the Celtic nations of the UK. This is mostly because of the shared language and much of the shared heritage, intermariage and common cultural links that exist in the British Isles.
I'm not sure, but it might be similar for Swedes, they might feel more an affinity to the Finns than towards their Germanic kin in Germany.

I think in the British Isles and Scandinavia the cultures and peoples and cultures have been more isolated from others and so have had to work together (as well as fight each other) and have developed a lot of similar traits. Of course though they still belong to their respective cultures, with the British Isles being Germanic (England, Shetland, Orkney) and Celtic (Celtic fringe), and in Scandinavia mostly Germanic and Finnic.

[Osweo]

Why the love for Germany, Pallantides? :wink
It's his preference for Sardinians over Sicilians and Neapolitans that puzzles me...

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4986/mhgg.jpg
:p

[Don]

4493

The white parts are the regions I feel more related to.

...

Postmodern Art. Make your own interpretations.


1.- Critic to the Lose of identity in multicultural Europe?

2.- Reminiscences of Atlantis?

3.- Psychotic-Daltonism Episode in the process of re-elaboration of the map?

4.- Artistic expression presented in a Cromo-emotive simulation of the porculism with the self-constricted voidness among pseudoification of the nether-sensitive efimerated experience when confronted with the insighted experiencial anti-concupiscibility catharsis in the narco-nutrition?

5.- Stupid random dadaistic painting in a childish -and healthy- way?

6.- All the previous (despite there is paradox in the incoherence).


!Su-rrea-lis-mo!

XFM6AwUZGg4
...


Ok, Morfeo calls this ancient soul with its unequivocal signals in mental imagery.
Good night.

[poiuytrewq0987]

4493

The white parts are the regions I feel more related to.

I don't understand the map. :confused:

[Jarlsson]

4493

The white parts are the regions I feel more related to.

I feel sorry for all those colorblind's out there. They just probably got their greatest challenge ever :P

[Äike]

The Estonian angle on the sacking of Sigtuna 1187 is old, nowadays historians speculate on Kareler from Novgorod. Here is what the Eriks Chronicle from 1320 has to say:

”Swerige haffde mykin vadha
aff karelom ok mykin onadha
The foro aff haffuit oc vp i mäle
bade i lugne ok swa i äle
alt hemelika jnnan swia skär
ok optast ä mz stylda här
en tyma fiöl them en then luna
at the brändo wp sightuna
Ok brändo thz swa alt i röther
at then stadhin fik ey än böther
Jon erchebiscop wart ther slägen
tess war mangin hedin fäghen
at them crisno gik swa illa i hand
thz gledde karela ok rytza land.”[8]


In your dreams :D. The sacking of Sigtuna 1187 are mentioned in several historical texts, the pirates’ are called Heathens and sometimes Kareler, no text mention Estonians.

I lol'd...



The Sigtuna-problem has recently been tackled by two Estonian historians, Enn Tarvel and Hain Rebas. They both come to similar conclusions. The following is an abstract of their thesis.

First, here is a list of medieval and early modern sources that identify the ones responsible for the destruction instead of just referring to "pagans" as some of the earlier accounts:

1) Eric's Chronicle from about 1320 says the Karelians did it.
2) Olaus Petri's En Swensk Cröneka (1540s) claims it was the Estonians.
3) Laurentius Petri's Chronica Svekana (16th century) also blames the Estonians.
4) Johannes Magnus (16th century) "credits" the Estonians as well.

One would think Eric's Chronicle is most reliable since it is far older than the rest. However, the information on Sigtuna can be claimed to have been motivated by contemporary politics. Sweden was actively expanding to the east in the early 14th century and having conflicts with Novgorod over Karelia. It would have served a propagandist agenda to point out that the Novgorod-Karelian "problem" was an ancient one. In the chronicle, Russia is said to have rejoiced over the victory along with the Karelians, thus indicating that the latter were acting in alliance with the former.

Apart from that, what makes the account of Eric's chronicle even less reliable? First, there is no contemporary information about the Karelians ever making raids west of Häme (Tavastia) in Finland. There is hardly any historical evidence on ancient Karelian seamanship. More importantly, the Novgorod annals (or any other Russian annals, for that matter) make no mention of the destruction of Sigtuna. It is highly unlikely the "rejoicing" Russians would have kept silent about such a great victory.

On the other hand, we have several contemporary accounts of Estonian pirate activity in Scandinavia: ravishing Öland in 1170 with the Curonians (Saxo Grammaticus), raiding Listerby in 1203 (Heinrici Chronicon Livoniae), looting on the Swedish coast in 1226 (the same). What's more, both Eric's chronicle and Olaus Petri relate about an earl named Jon who got killed by the same pagans (Estonians according to Olaus) on Lake Mälaren. Jon's widow is then said to have gathered folk and slaughtered the enemies on "a hill that is called eesta skär ('Estonians' islet')". The islet is today known as Estbröte.

Both authors conclude that the Estonian version is the most probable one.


Here's an article (http://humantrust.net/geturl2.cgi?ext=application%2Fpdf&ref=0.0957839889451861&username=&hitspace=sigtunamuseum.se&ticket=&url=public%2FPdf%2FHistoria%20och%20arkeologi%2FHe in2007X.pdf) for you, in Swedish, I found it on the Sigtuna museum webpage. As a Swede, you should know more about Swedish history then some guy with only minor Estonian-Swede (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_Swedes) ancestry. ;)

[esaima]

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4986/mhgg.jpg

:D

;)...Well-done for non-colourblind persons, can you explain what do these different colours mean?

[Albion]

I guess it goes in something like this order:

English (which I'am)
Manx
Welsh
Scottish
Cornish
Dutch
Icelanders
Germans
Scandinavian peoples
Austrians
Swiss
Bretons
Portugese
Spanish
Macedonians
etc...

Even though I'm English and the English are a Germanic people I feel a slightly more affinity towards the Celtic nations of the UK. This is mostly because of the shared language and much of the shared heritage, intermariage and common cultural links that exist in the British Isles.
I'm not sure, but it might be similar for Swedes, they might feel more an affinity to the Finns than towards their Germanic kin in Germany.

I think in the British Isles and Scandinavia the cultures and peoples and cultures have been more isolated from others and so have had to work together (as well as fight each other) and have developed a lot of similar traits. Of course though they still belong to their respective cultures, with the British Isles being Germanic (England, Shetland, Orkney) and Celtic (Celtic fringe), and in Scandinavia mostly Germanic and Finnic.

OK seen as everyone is making maps here's mine...

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=146&pictureid=1085

Dark green = The ethnic groups I feel closest to, mostly in terms of culture and common traits, but some in genetics. These are the ethnic groups I like the best in Europe.

Light Green = Ethnic groups I feel pretty close to and I feel we have some common traits (i.e. similar climate in Brittany and Normandy and history).

Yellow = I feel ok towards these ethnic groups and they're quite good, but I don't think we share a lot of common culture.

Light red = I don't identify with these ethnic groups very much at all.

Dark Red = I'm not too fond of these ethnic groups.


As you might be able to see, it has somewhat a Germano-Celtic and British Isles / Northwest Europe bias mostly. I identify with the British Isles first and foremost, followed by Northwest Europe and then Germanic Europe (before anyone says, I know some of the green places aren't Germanic).

[poiuytrewq0987]

As you might be able to see, it has somewhat a Germano-Celtic and British Isles / Northwest Europe bias mostly. I identify with the British Isles first and foremost, followed by Northwest Europe and then Germanic Europe (before anyone says, I know some of the green places aren't Germanic).

What makes Macedonia so special? LOL

[Albion]

What makes Macedonia so special? LOL
well I just like their culture and landscapes in Macedonia and it seems like a nice place from what i've read about it, even with its problems.

[Breedingvariety]

Breedingvarietys Familiarity Map:

[Foxy]

FAMILY TREE OF ITALIANS:

GRANDPARENTS: Greeks
PARENTS: Latins and Italics
BROTHERS: French
COUSINS: Spanish and Romanians
STEP-BROTHERS: Germans (in particular catholic Southern Germans) and Austrians, Suisses
SOMETHING ELSE: Slovenjans and Croatians

[Foxy]

OK seen as everyone is making maps here's mine...

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=146&pictureid=1085

Dark green = The ethnic groups I feel closest to, mostly in terms of culture and common traits, but some in genetics. These are the ethnic groups I like the best in Europe.

Light Green = Ethnic groups I feel pretty close to and I feel we have some common traits (i.e. similar climate in Brittany and Normandy and history).

Yellow = I feel ok towards these ethnic groups and they're quite good, but I don't think we share a lot of common culture.

Light red = I don't identify with these ethnic groups very much at all.

Dark Red = I'm not too fond of these ethnic groups.


As you might be able to see, it has somewhat a Germano-Celtic and British Isles / Northwest Europe bias mostly. I identify with the British Isles first and foremost, followed by Northwest Europe and then Germanic Europe (before anyone says, I know some of the green places aren't Germanic).

I'm sorry, you feel more related to Croatians than to French who gave you also 50% of your language?
Bah... the ignorance...

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by RomanQueen
I'm sorry, you feel more related to Croatians than to French who gave you also 50% of your language?

25-40% of English vocabulary derives from French (depending on your sources).

99 of the 100 most used words in Modern English are of Old English origin.

Around 85% of the most common used 1000 words are of Old English origin.

Modern English is classed as West Germanic, though it had already started to evolve away from other Germanic languages before the Norman Conquest, in part by Scandinavian influence and also its isolation, there is some argument that the Celtic influence may have been greater than thought. Personally I would give English and Scots their own linguistic branch but that's just me.

[Aramis]

http://i47.tinypic.com/2ypf7te.jpg

Oh mein God! So much black and red...

The map looks like drawn by a pure evil entity that crawled from the deepths of Hell while killing kittens alongside.

Why does everyone hate Poland?

[Sahson]

Legend as follows - Culture relation/friendship relation

Dark Blue - 85%+
Dark Sky Blue - 70%+
Medium Sky Blue - 55%+
Sky blue - 40%+
Light Sky Blue - 20%+
Sea green - 10%+
Grey - no sense of relation

Culture
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu120/SoliloCey/Culturemap.png

Friendship
http://i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu120/SoliloCey/Friendshipmap.png

Do not feel upset if your nation is a lighter shading, some of the nations on the east have been given a lower rank because I have very little sense of relation to that country, or I know very little about the nation.

I'm very happy to make new relations, with members from the east, or anywhere else, however this is how I feel about European nations. Friendship wise, I have a lot of good Polish friends.

[Foxy]

25-40% of English vocabulary derives from French (depending on your sources).

99 of the 100 most used words in Modern English are of Old English origin.

Around 85% of the most common used 1000 words are of Old English origin.

Modern English is classed as West Germanic, though it had already started to evolve away from other Germanic languages before the Norman Conquest, in part by Scandinavian influence and also its isolation, there is some argument that the Celtic influence may have been greater than thought. Personally I would give English and Scots their own linguistic branch but that's just me.

I study foreign languages at the university and English is considered a Romance-Germanic language. You have many words which are from French, but also many others which are from Latin, in particular in the religious field, in the law, in the medicine, in botanic, in literature, art, etc. etc.
And just to joke, here I evidence with an other colour all the words with neolatin roots I used :D

It seems to me that they are a bit more than the 20%. But as Italian probably I use more neolatin words than their anglo-saxon synonims.
Plus there are some words that are indo-europeans and in which the germanic and the romance root is identical. For istance "to have" can be germanic but also romance (in modern german is "haben", in latin "habere", in Italian "avere"), same goes for "in", "I", "you", "other" ("in " is the same in all the languages I mentioned, I is "ego" in Latin, "ich" in m.German and "io" in Italian, you--> tu/du/tu, and in old English it was "thou" ).
For Italians English is very easy. It's that we are mules and don't want to learn foreign languages, except French and Spanish that are so similar to Italian that is like a Swede learning Danish, i.e. that is if an Italian is not able to learn neither Spanish he/she has to be seriously cured. XD

[Sahson]

I study foreign languages at the university and English is considered a Romance-Germanic language. You have many words which are from French, but also many others which are from Latin, in particular in the religious field, in the law, in the medicine, in botanic, in literature, art, etc. etc.
And just to joke, here I evidence with an other colour all the words with neolatin roots I used :D

I actually agree with Romanqueen here. I use just as many french-derived/romance-derived words as old english words. Of course the pronouns we use are old english(they, them, thou, thee). I personally have had problems with the voiceless dental fricative, the voiced dental nonsibilant fricative, that I infact sometimes end up reducing the voiceless dental fricative to a voiceless labio-dental fricative. As for the Voiced its not so much a problem, but i might use a voiced labio-dental fricative instead.

Origin of the English Lexicon:-
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Origins_of_English_PieChart.svg/601px-Origins_of_English_PieChart.svg.png

Some English words that are french origin:-


Bacon
Accuse
Abbrevition
Baggage
Average
Avenue
Assume
Assembly
Artist
Attack
beef
Benefit
Blanket
Bravery
Brilliant
Budget
Button
Cancel
Capacity
Career
Cherish


This is just tip of the iceberg, there are thousands from french origin, origin itself is a french word...

[Albion]

I'm sorry, you feel more related to Croatians than to French who gave you also 50% of your language?
Bah... the ignorance...

I'm not writing about language, that's to simple a view. Many Nigerians speak English but I don't feel related to them either. Besides, my map was tinged with bias towards groups I like more, so it was a relatedness / preference hybrid map.
:thumb001:
Anyway think what you like.
:thumb001:

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Daguerreo
they, them

Both of which are Old Norse….

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by RomanQueen
I study foreign languages at the university and English is considered a Romance-Germanic language. You have many words which are from French, but also many others which are from Latin, in particular in the religious field, in the law, in the medicine, in botanic, in literature, art, etc. etc.

As I posted before I believe there is a serious case for Modern English and its off shoots to be given a separate language family altogether.


It seems to me that they are a bit more than the 20%. But as Italian probably I use more neolatin words than their anglo-saxon synonims.
Plus there are some words that are indo-europeans and in which the germanic and the romance root is identical. For istance "to have" can be germanic but also romance (in modern german is "haben", in latin "habere", in Italian "avere"), same goes for "in", "I", "you", "other" ("in " is the same in all the languages I mentioned, I is "ego" in Latin, "ich" in m.German and "io" in Italian, you--> tu/du/tu, and in old English it was "thou" ).

Written English is probably more Latinised than the spoken language. Many Norman-French words became equivalents to rather than replacements of Old English words but the infusion of Latin and Greek words had been going on since the conversion to Christianity. Consider it the product of a history where since 1066 the aristocracy and populous have largely been alienated and divorced from each other, the London set are the heirs of the Normans. If you want to see the true England, forget London (and most cities) and go into the shires.


For Italians English is very easy. It's that we are mules and don't want to learn foreign languages, except French and Spanish that are so similar to Italian that is like a Swede learning Danish, i.e. that is if an Italian is not able to learn neither Spanish he/she has to be seriously cured.
I’m like most English people; I generally do not perceive much point in foreign language learning, when I travelled in Europe I made some effort to learn French and German, neither to difficult to learn but I found I hardly needed it since most people spoke English. For me, though, it is more the case I’m not overly interested in learning modern languages, I’m studying Old English and would like to study ancient Greek and Latin because I have a natural interest in my own nation as well as a love for Classical civilisation.

[Megrez]

Do town criers still shout "Oyez!" in rural England? I remember I read this in an old ethno-geographic book from the 1960's.

[Osweo]

I study foreign languages at the university and English is considered a Romance-Germanic language. You have many words which are from French, but also many others which are from Latin, in particular in the religious field, in the law, in the medicine, in botanic, in literature, art, etc. etc.
And just to joke, here I evidence with an other colour all the words with neolatin roots I used :D

You missed at least five! ;)

Do town criers still shout "Oyez!" in rural England? I remember I read this in an old ethno-geographic book from the 1960's.
Do town criers still EXIST in rural England, except as deliberate archaisms? ;) (I will ignore the paradox between 'rural and town'... :p)

[Megrez]

Small rural towns, perhaps? Anything in the countryside anyway, as I read in that book.

[Osweo]

Small rural towns, perhaps? Anything in the countryside anyway, as I read in that book.

:p

Town criers exist formally, as a sort of honorary title, and you sometimes see them on television at fairs and so on, but they are a deliberate archaism, and therefore dress in 18th Century clothes (the time when they last existed as a functional necessary profession), and self-consciously use archaic (and in this case Norman) terms like 'oyez'.

Personally, I've never seen one 'in the flesh'.

[Inese]

Oh mein God! So much black and red...

The map looks like drawn by a pure evil entity that crawled from the deepths of Hell while killing kittens alongside.
Yes i am a pure evil entity....:rolleyes: Me and my own dark kingdom, cool! ^_^ But the correct answer is that i am only honest! Please read what i write, will you: Red is "no feeling of relationship". It does not mean i hate everyone there, no it means i dont care about the people there! It is not positive or negative ---- it is neutral. I have no connections to them! Feel offended if you like but it is the truth of my thinking.


Why does everyone hate Poland?
Please stop making rhetoric questions lol! :p A quarter of my heart is German and it is the reason i dont like them. Why?? Take history lessons.

[Aramis]

Take history lessons.

Only if you are going to teach me. :naughty:

[Albion]

Consider it the product of a history where since 1066 the aristocracy and populous have largely been alienated and divorced from each other, the London set are the heirs of the Normans. If you want to see the true England, forget London (and most cities) and go into the shires.

I read somewhere that 20% of the English people have some Norman genes due to population bottleneck during a plague or something. I'll have to try and find some info on it.
Also there are a lot of old Norman families in the normal populace who are from old aristocratic families which went broke.


Small rural towns, perhaps? Anything in the countryside anyway, as I read in that book.

Yeah, there's one in my town, we don't see him too often, he has a real job and just does it on occasions.

[Sahson]

Both of which are Old Norse….

obviously, I did state that in my previous post. Honey is a germanic word, we could deconstruct English all day, the point is French, and latin constitutes the majority of English, but there is a significant amount of Germanic, and Norse influence.

[Osweo]

obviously, I did state that in my previous post. Honey is a germanic word, we could deconstruct English all day, the point is French, and latin constitutes the majority of English, but there is a significant amount of Germanic, and Norse influence.

Tut tut!

A feller could go all day without saying owt from other tongues, no bother. When I'm at home, with only my folks around, we don't speak a word of French or Latin for a good long while at a stretch.

Here's some everyday talk, utterly lacking in Romance;
'Where's the bluddy dog gone now?'
'Ow should I bleeding know? An't yer tecken er out yet?'
'Ey, it's your turn, I took er yesterday!'
'Whatever. Put kettle on; a'm dying fer a brew.'
'Alright...'
'Ow much water d'yer call that? What ave a told you about putting so much in, yer daft get!?'
'Hmmff. Ow much milk d'yer want? Is that enuff?'
'Is it eck as like, pour some more in!'
'Eeyar, do it yourself.'

I tell you, we go on like that all the live long day, with barely a hint that William the Lovechild ever stepped off his boat. And I've kept all the above free of borrowings too, you might well have marked. It IS summat you can do, after all!

[Sahson]

Tut tut!

A feller could go all day without saying owt from other tongues, no bother. When I'm at home, with only my folks around, we don't speak a word of French or Latin for a good long while at a stretch.

Here's some everyday talk, utterly lacking in Romance;
'Where's the bluddy dog gone now?'
'Ow should I bleeding know? An't yer tecken er out yet?'
'Ey, it's your turn, I took er yesterday!'
'Whatever. Put kettle on; a'm dying fer a brew.'
'Alright...'
'Ow much water d'yer call that? What ave a told you about putting so much in, yer daft get!?'
'Hmmff. Ow much milk d'yer want? Is that enuff?'
'Is it eck as like, pour some more in!'
'Eeyar, do it yourself.'

I tell you, we go on like that all the live long day, with barely a hint that William the Lovechild ever stepped off his boat. And I've kept all the above free of borrowings too, you might well have marked. It IS summat you can do, after all!

Most of my family being from yorkshire would talk like that. I'm not denying it. I do seem to be the black sheep among my family though. Even my accent is rather odd, but this is probably being away from the motherland for so long.

Like my R sound varies from being {x-sampa: /4/ /R/ or /r\`/}. Again it's a different story here for the same conversation amongst my family members.

Would you like a cuppa tea. (of course there are more germanic words here then there are latin)