R1b L21

[Graham]

Thought that we could do with a topic on this fine group..
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Tree_Chart.pnghttp://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-L21.gif

Who are these people?

What links them?

Why is Basque in high numbers, compared to it's neighbours?

[sonofthedutch]

I thought the overwhelming majority were Celtic. With some possibly being Germanic or Norse. Hey have you joined the L21 yahoo group?

[Grace O'Malley]

I think Rb L21 originated along the Rhine and its attributories. It reached the British Isles from Northern France.

[Jackson]

I think Rb L21 originated along the Rhine and its attributories. It reached the British Isles from Northern France.

I'd put my bet on L21 arriving in the Isles from either along the Rhine or from northern France west of the Rhine. In terms of self-reported ancestry (less reliable but still follows general trends shown) there's a fair bit of L21 in Germany too, so that's a possibility. Although it doesn't show up as strongly in proper population studies, so i'ts probably over-inflated in this case. It may be that L21 once had a greater spread but has been gradually depleted on the continent by U152, U106 and other haplogroups like R1a and I1/I2. I mean if you look at L21 it seems to constantly survive in fringe areas, areas that also happened to retain their Celtic language against Romance and Germanic languages. I mean two Bell Beakers in Germany both had R1b-P312, but no sign of U106, so clearly U106 has expanded south and west at some point since then (either that or it's just a coincidence), and U152 looks to have done the same in some areas. It's possible that Rhenish Bell Beaker (and other Bell Beaker groups) brought some of it (or much of it?) to Britain, although if both populations had it in reasonable amounts, it may be practically invisible. One of the most recent estimates was that it occurred in the far-southeast of Britain and expanded after that, so maybe if that is the case it came to dominate in the Isles and moved out from there? I don't know.

[Grace O'Malley]

I'd put my bet on L21 arriving in the Isles from either along the Rhine or from northern France west of the Rhine. In terms of self-reported ancestry (less reliable but still follows general trends shown) there's a fair bit of L21 in Germany too, so that's a possibility. Although it doesn't show up as strongly in proper population studies, so i'ts probably over-inflated in this case. It may be that L21 once had a greater spread but has been gradually depleted on the continent by U152, U106 and other haplogroups like R1a and I1/I2. I mean if you look at L21 it seems to constantly survive in fringe areas, areas that also happened to retain their Celtic language against Romance and Germanic languages. I mean two Bell Beakers in Germany both had R1b-P312, but no sign of U106, so clearly U106 has expanded south and west at some point since then (either that or it's just a coincidence), and U152 looks to have done the same in some areas. It's possible that Rhenish Bell Beaker (and other Bell Beaker groups) brought some of it (or much of it?) to Britain, although if both populations had it in reasonable amounts, it may be practically invisible. One of the most recent estimates was that it occurred in the far-southeast of Britain and expanded after that, so maybe if that is the case it came to dominate in the Isles and moved out from there? I don't know.

I think the reason that L21 is so dominant in Ireland is because of the clan system and that powerful men like Niall of the Nine Hostages and Brian Boru had so many descendants. I know these men might be only symbolic for these haplotypes but it still shows that powerful men in Ireland had more lineages.

Jackson did you read The Origins of the Irish by J.P. Mallory? If you did do you think it is worth buying and what do you think about the conclusions?

[Jackson]

I think the reason that L21 is so dominant in Ireland is because of the clan system and that powerful men like Niall of the Nine Hostages and Brian Boru had so many descendants. I know these men might be only symbolic for these haplotypes but it still shows that powerful men in Ireland had more lineages.

Jackson did you read The Origins of the Irish by J.P. Mallory? If you did do you think it is worth buying and what do you think about the conclusions?

I agree too about the clan system. It could explain how a minority elite came to dominate in y-lineages so quickly. It could explain how Irish are quite closely related to other populations with very little (less than 10%) of R1b-L21. Either that or the people with L21 were autosomally already quite similar to the people already there. My understanding is that Royal 'houses' would have a lot of children, and the male descendents would have rights but only if they were a certain relatedness to a powerful family, so one could see how the elite that were successful in marrying into other royal families would carry on the dominance of R1b-L21, and ones that weren't would gradually filter down into the general population. I suppose it could be that Ireland has been subjected to a little less outside influence/incursions for a certain period of time that this process may have continued for longer, leaving some areas with over 90% (or even 95-100%) R1b. Correct me if i'm wrong, i'm only going on memory here and it's been a while since i read it. :)

Yeah it's a good book, very informative and accessible, also funny in parts. I'd recommend it.

[Grace O'Malley]

I agree too about the clan system. It could explain how a minority elite came to dominate in y-lineages so quickly. It could explain how Irish are quite closely related to other populations with very little (less than 10%) of R1b-L21. Either that or the people with L21 were autosomally already quite similar to the people already there. My understanding is that Royal 'houses' would have a lot of children, and the male descendents would have rights but only if they were a certain relatedness to a powerful family, so one could see how the elite that were successful in marrying into other royal families would carry on the dominance of R1b-L21, and ones that weren't would gradually filter down into the general population. I suppose it could be that Ireland has been subjected to a little less outside influence/incursions for a certain period of time that this process may have continued for longer, leaving some areas with over 90% (or even 95-100%) R1b. Correct me if i'm wrong, i'm only going on memory here and it's been a while since i read it. :)

Yeah it's a good book, very informative and accessible, also funny in parts. I'd recommend it.

Looking at Irish history and the genetics I really think a few powerful men had a great input on the y chromosome landscape of Ireland. There is very little diversity and R1b has not had a long history in the Isles. It makes you wonder what happened to the previous males in Ireland?

I'll definitely order The Origins of the Irish then. Where did Mallory think the Irish came from?

[Caismeachd]

It's interesting that it's in Sicily as well.

[Jackson]

Looking at Irish history and the genetics I really think a few powerful men had a great input on the y chromosome landscape of Ireland. There is very little diversity and R1b has not had a long history in the Isles. It makes you wonder what happened to the previous males in Ireland?

I'll definitely order The Origins of the Irish then. Where did Mallory think the Irish came from?

I'll have to re-consult the book to double check, i should be able to do that tonight.

[Grace O'Malley]

It's interesting that it's in Sicily as well.

Is it? Maybe from the Normans?

[Jackson]

It's interesting that it's in Sicily as well.

Yes it could be an ancient anomaly, or more likely to do with the Norman influence. West and north-west Sicily had a big significant impact from the Normans genetically. For example they have more Norman paternal lineages, and autosomally just the other day i encountered a Sicilian on a forum who showed significant northern European influence, to the point that autosomally he clustered with northern Italians rather than Sicilians from other areas or southern Italians.

[Caismeachd]

On the map it's all throughout Sicily in a low degree with a peak to the NE.

[Jackson]

Would be cool to get my mother's paternal line tested at some point soon. We know living relatives along that line, fairly closely related. As far as i know the name is Thomson and we're not sure from where in Scotland it originated. We've postulated the lowlands, the south-west and Aberdeenshire. There is a family rumour he was from one of the islands, but i have no evidence to substantiate that. I'd be willing to bet that the line is R1b-L21, although if it's something more unusual it might give us some clues.

[Grace O'Malley]

Yes it could be an ancient anomaly, or more likely to do with the Norman influence. West and north-west Sicily had a big significant impact from the Normans genetically. For example they have more Norman paternal lineages, and autosomally just the other day i encountered a Sicilian on a forum who showed significant northern European influence, to the point that autosomally he clustered with northern Italians rather than Sicilians from other areas or southern Italians.

Very interesting. I have an Irish Norman name through marriage. Norman names are very common in Ireland.

[Graham]

Is it? Maybe from the Normans?

Romans did take a slave or two. Described as a Caledonian in Tunisian mosaics.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20579219

[Grace O'Malley]

Would be cool to get my mother's paternal line tested at some point soon. We know living relatives along that line, fairly closely related. As far as i know the name is Thomson and we're not sure from where in Scotland it originated. We've postulated the lowlands, the south-west and Aberdeenshire. There is a family rumour he was from one of the islands, but i have no evidence to substantiate that. I'd be willing to bet that the line is R1b-L21, although if it's something more unusual it might give us some clues.

My father was from a hotspot in Ireland that was for M222. I should persuade my brother to get tested because my father is no longer here.

[Jackson]

Very interesting. I have an Irish Norman name through marriage. Norman names are very common in Ireland.

That's cool. Yeah i've heard that in addition to the Cambro-Norman settlers, likely some native Irish also adopted Norman names. Of course it might be difficult to tell which is which without DNA tests.

I am related to a long Norman line that goes back to 11th Cheshire (and of course Normandy before that), from the area of Malpas. John William le Belward was the earliest i think, he was born in 1013 in Belward, Normandie, France:

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Le_Belward-6

[Grace O'Malley]

That's cool. Yeah i've heard that in addition to the Cambro-Norman settlers, likely some native Irish also adopted Norman names. Of course it might be difficult to tell which is which without DNA tests.

I am related to a long Norman line that goes back to 11th Cheshire (and of course Normandy before that), from the area of Malpas. John William le Belward was the earliest i think, he was born in 1013 in Belward, Normandie, France:

http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Le_Belward-6

I told my father-in-law that his name was Norman and he was most offended :D. He said they were Irish and that was that lol.

Here is the name.

http://www.houseofnames.com/redmond-family-crest

[Graham]

Irish seem to be less comfortable with the Normans or any connection.

[Caismeachd]

Because that would make them partly English. How do they feel about having Viking ancestry from Dublin?

[Grace O'Malley]

Irish seem to be less comfortable with the Normans or any connection.

I'm a bit more open to foreign influence because I've been raised in a multi-cultural environment. Older Irish (even if raised overseas) seem to take it as an offence if you suggest they have dna from outside Ireland. I think it is due to Irish history where it was Irish against the might of the British Empire. My father-in-law left Ireland when he was 12 and was raised in Manchester before he went to Oz. Manchester seems a strange place to me because it appears to be an extension of Dublin? Older Irish people seem very resistent to any foreign influence whether it be Viking, Norman or English etc. It is something peculiar to Irish because the English seem to revel in their Anglo-Saxon origin. :D

Irish people want to be separate from British but I think this is fading and new dna studies show that all the British Isles' populations are closely related.

[Grace O'Malley]

Because that would make them partly English. How do they feel about having Viking ancestry from Dublin?

Most Irish think that Brian Boru got rid of all the Vikings and that we are a completely Celtic population.

[Graham]

Most Irish think that Brian Boru got rid of all the Vikings and that we are a completely Celtic population.
hehe aye but the last proclaimed high King of Ireland was Edward de Brus. :P

[Grace O'Malley]

hehe aye but the last proclaimed high King of Ireland was Edward de Brus. :P

I think they would have accepted William Wallace more heartedly even though they both had a Norman origin. We really are a mixed up bunch. Most of Ireland's republicans were Anglo-Irish like the Pearse brothers and Charles Stewart Parnell. One of the greatest Irish patriots was Daniel O'Connell though who was an Irish Catholic. A lot of people from outside Ireland forget that a lot of the Ascendency were pro-Irish in supporting an independent Ireland.

[Graham]

L-21 My general thought was that it came from the Bell Beakers, & that it carried the Proto-Celtic language.

Or is it Bronze age?

Wish I could find the agreed dates for everything.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Who are these people?

What links them?

Why is Basque in high numbers, compared to it's neighbours?

I think it's simply "original europeans".

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?114879-UK-least-mixed-europeans

Native NW europeans show they have not had a significant mixing event in thousands of years. So, I think that they have basically been there and unmixed for some time. Germanics and others with other clades have largely pushed them out of many areas.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?107812-Support-for-celts-coming-out-of-iberia

Archaeology supports the genetics, too. Farming was in west europe much sooner than in central europe, and bell beaker obviously comes out of the west.

[Graham]

From Eupedia. Puts entry at around 2100BCE. Early Bronze age time.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg

Can we not test this man for R-l21? this one would be of interest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/archaeology/king_stonehenge_01.shtml

There are links to Beaker culture & bronze age culture, Spain & Central Europe. The age nearly fits.

[Jackson]

From Eupedia. Puts entry at around 2100BCE. Early Bronze age time.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg

Can we not test this man for R-l21? this one would be of interest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/archaeology/king_stonehenge_01.shtml

There are links to Beaker culture & bronze age culture, Spain & Central Europe. The age nearly fits.

That would make sense. The absence of certain older lineages and the estimated date of R1b-L21 using mutation rate suggests that it arrived fairly recently, i guess no earlier than 3000BCE. I mean there are two P312 Bell-Beakers from 2800-2000 BC in central Germany at that time, so seems very likely that it arrived in Britain at that time or was already there by then.

[Jackson]

I think it's simply "original europeans".

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?114879-UK-least-mixed-europeans

Native NW europeans show they have not had a significant mixing event in thousands of years. So, I think that they have basically been there and unmixed for some time. Germanics and others with other clades have largely pushed them out of many areas.

But we would need to explain why we only have younger R1b groups in western Europe. Unless the younger ones somehow completely outbred the older lineages in western Europe, but not in other areas like south-east Europe and parts of west Asia. Also mutation rate dating and variance says that it's youngest in the west and north-west of Europe. Also, we have lots of I from old Europe in a similar area, even a Y DNA C, but no R1b until the Bell Beaker period. I think we need more ancient remains tested - in the hundreds - in order to get a conclusive picture.

[Argang]

From Eupedia. Puts entry at around 2100BCE. Early Bronze age time.


Can we not test this man for R-l21? this one would be of interest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/archaeology/king_stonehenge_01.shtml

There are links to Beaker culture & bronze age culture, Spain & Central Europe. The age nearly fits.

Yeah, that guy should definitely be tested. No idea if the people studying him are interested though.

Are there any more ancient remains of comparable period to test? If he'd turn out G or I, R1b movements would still stay in the dark.

[Jackson]

I think it's simply "original europeans".

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?114879-UK-least-mixed-europeans

Native NW europeans show they have not had a significant mixing event in thousands of years. So, I think that they have basically been there and unmixed for some time. Germanics and others with other clades have largely pushed them out of many areas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

Early papers publishing results on European-wide Y-DNA marker frequencies, such as those of Semino (2000) and Rosser (2000), correlated haplogroup R1b-M269 with the earliest episodes of European colonization by Anatomically Modern Humans (AMH). The peak frequencies of M269 in Iberia (especially the Basque region) and the Atlantic façade were postulated to represent signatures of re-colonization of the European West following the Last Glacial Maximum.[81][82] However, even prior to recent criticisms and refinements, the idea that Iberian R1b carrying males repopulated most of western Europe was not consistent with findings which revealed that Italian M269 lineages are not derivative of Iberian ones.[83]

More recently, data and calculations from Myres (2011),[84] Cruciani (2010),[85] Arredi (2007)[86] and Belaresque (2010)[87] suggest a Late Neolithic entry of M269 into Europe.

These hypotheses appear to be corroborated by more direct evidence from ancient DNA. For example, Early Neolithic Y-DNA from Spain did not reveal any R1b, but rather E-V13 and G2a,[87] whilst a similar study from a French pre-Beaker Neolithic site revealed haplgroup G2a and I-P37.[88] It is only later, from a German Bell Beaker site dated to the third millennium BCE, that the first evidence for R1b is detected. Ancient Y-DNA results for the remains of Beaker people from Iberia have yet to be obtained.

Whilst Cruciani, Belaresque and Arredi support a spread of R1b from South-Eastern Europe, Klyosov (2012) postulates that "Western European" R1b-L150 entered Europe from Northern Africa, via Iberia, coincident with the spread of the Bell Beaker culture.[89]

From a mitochondrial DNA perspective, haplogroup H, which has high (~ 40%) throughout Europe, has received similar attention. Early studies by Richards et al (2000) purported that it arose 28 - 23,000 years ago (kya), spreading into Europe ~ 20 kya, before then re-expanding from an Iberian glacial refuge ~ 15 kya, calculations subsequently corroborated by Pereira (2004).[90] However, a larger study by Roostalu (2006), incorporating more data from the Near East, suggested that whilst Hg H did begin to expand c. 20 kya, this was limited to the Near East, Caucasus and Southeastern Europe. Rather its subsequent spread further west occurred later, in the post-glacial period from a postulated South Caucasian refugium.[91] This hypothesis has been supported by a recent ancient DNA analysis study, which links the expansion of mtDNA Hg H in Western Europe with the Bell Beaker phenomenon.[92]

Whilst such studies are insightful, even if the dates postulated by authors are correct, they do not necessarily imply that the spread of a particular genetic marker represents a distinct population, 'tribe' or language group. As such, 'genetic studies' have often drawn criticisms not only from archaeologists and cultural anthropologists, but also from fellow population geneticists.[92]

[Dál Riata]

This is the group I was most interested in as it was the most likeliest for me to have, with my paternal family coming from the west coast of Scotland.

Just found found out that I'm an R1a Viking/Aryan instead! Ah well, I'll still take an interest in this group as I'm sure I still share much autosomal DNA with you guys! :thumb001:

[Graham]

This is the group I was most interested in as it was the most likeliest for me to have, with my paternal family coming from the west coast of Scotland.

Just found found out that I'm an R1a Viking/Aryan instead! Ah well, I'll still take an interest in this group as I'm sure I still share much autosomal DNA with you guys! :thumb001:

MacDonald? R1a is more common in Scots than any other nation of the British Isles.

[Dál Riata]

MacDonald? R1a is more common in Scots than any other nation of the British Isles.

Close, a related clan. Like MacDonald, my surname is supposedly descended from the medieval Celtic warrior, Somerled!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled
http://www.scotsman.com/news/sci-tech/dna-shows-celtic-hero-somerled-s-viking-roots-1-709181

He defeated the Vikings in 12th century Scotland. But as well as marrying a Viking princess, it seems he had Viking paternal ancestry himself. Norse Vikings intermarried with native Gaelic speaking Celts in the Hebrides and West coast of Scotland as well as parts of Ireland and the people there took on a mixed Celtic-Viking culture, the Gall-Ghàidheil or 'Foreign Gaels'. That must be where the increased Scots R1a comes form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse%E2%80%93Gaels

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture

Early papers publishing results on European-wide Y-DNA marker frequencies, such as those of Semino (2000) and Rosser (2000), correlated haplogroup R1b-M269 with the earliest episodes of European colonization by Anatomically Modern Humans (AMH). The peak frequencies of M269 in Iberia (especially the Basque region) and the Atlantic façade were postulated to represent signatures of re-colonization of the European West following the Last Glacial Maximum.[81][82] However, even prior to recent criticisms and refinements, the idea that Iberian R1b carrying males repopulated most of western Europe was not consistent with findings which revealed that Italian M269 lineages are not derivative of Iberian ones.[83]

More recently, data and calculations from Myres (2011),[84] Cruciani (2010),[85] Arredi (2007)[86] and Belaresque (2010)[87] suggest a Late Neolithic entry of M269 into Europe.

These hypotheses appear to be corroborated by more direct evidence from ancient DNA. For example, Early Neolithic Y-DNA from Spain did not reveal any R1b, but rather E-V13 and G2a,[87] whilst a similar study from a French pre-Beaker Neolithic site revealed haplgroup G2a and I-P37.[88] It is only later, from a German Bell Beaker site dated to the third millennium BCE, that the first evidence for R1b is detected. Ancient Y-DNA results for the remains of Beaker people from Iberia have yet to be obtained.

Whilst Cruciani, Belaresque and Arredi support a spread of R1b from South-Eastern Europe, Klyosov (2012) postulates that "Western European" R1b-L150 entered Europe from Northern Africa, via Iberia, coincident with the spread of the Bell Beaker culture.[89]

From a mitochondrial DNA perspective, haplogroup H, which has high (~ 40%) throughout Europe, has received similar attention. Early studies by Richards et al (2000) purported that it arose 28 - 23,000 years ago (kya), spreading into Europe ~ 20 kya, before then re-expanding from an Iberian glacial refuge ~ 15 kya, calculations subsequently corroborated by Pereira (2004).[90] However, a larger study by Roostalu (2006), incorporating more data from the Near East, suggested that whilst Hg H did begin to expand c. 20 kya, this was limited to the Near East, Caucasus and Southeastern Europe. Rather its subsequent spread further west occurred later, in the post-glacial period from a postulated South Caucasian refugium.[91] This hypothesis has been supported by a recent ancient DNA analysis study, which links the expansion of mtDNA Hg H in Western Europe with the Bell Beaker phenomenon.[92]

Whilst such studies are insightful, even if the dates postulated by authors are correct, they do not necessarily imply that the spread of a particular genetic marker represents a distinct population, 'tribe' or language group. As such, 'genetic studies' have often drawn criticisms not only from archaeologists and cultural anthropologists, but also from fellow population geneticists.[92]

The dates are wrong for that to happen. One guy in LBK complex found as r1b doesn't make it the origin of R1b.

The spread of H is what makes no sense.

Dates don't add up for archaeology, and molecular clock dates don't add up.

Bell Beaker starts in Iberia and moves to france and Germany and then moves east and stops in central europe, period. Each of those parts has long since been proven, and the theory you are talking about just ignores these facts. It also ignores how ridiculous an idea it is that this supposedly invasive culture is has no sign of any mixing events for thousands of years. This alone makes it impossible.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00194.x/abstract;jsessionid=2A655CF4728B24C00255D3C6BB06CE 1E.f04t02
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/07/pre-roman-iberian-mtdna.html
1. mtdna in iberia was the same as it is now long before romans, invalidating retarded theory.

2. mtdna in northern africa shows it has been similar for 20k years as well (but hv instead of V, probably).

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/04/mtdna-haplogroup-h-and-origin-of.html
3. I posted this about a hundred times, no one reads it I guess. When you look at age and distribution of H it shows signs of spreading from iberia...since all the ancient DNA from iberia has it too, it could not have magically jumped across europe and married r1b and spread itself all over entirely of europe and still maintain the concentration pattern it has today.. It's just not possible.



Radiocarbon dating seems to support that the earliest "Maritime" Bell Beaker design style is encountered in Iberia, specifically in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800-2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe.[3][13] An overview of all available sources from southern Germany concluded that Bell Beaker was a new and independent culture in that area, contemporary with the Corded Ware culture1

4. So by your own link, obviously beaker culture, H, and r1b all come out of Iberia. The only 'evidence' against this is so called molecular clock. But this is just backsolving of known values, completely meaningless. It's not mathematically valid to make this kind of leap in logic.



These hypotheses appear to be corroborated by more direct evidence from ancient DNA. For example, Early Neolithic Y-DNA from Spain did not reveal any R1b, but rather E-V13 and G2a,[87] whilst a similar study from a French pre-Beaker Neolithic site revealed haplgroup G2a and I-P37.[88] It is only later, from a German Bell Beaker site dated to the third millennium BCE, that the first evidence for R1b is detected. Ancient Y-DNA results for the remains of Beaker people from Iberia have yet to be obtained.

The G is the neolithic farmers who came into europe (from armenia or something I guess). The E has no concentrations like G and is probably picked up along the way or else was spread through europe at low levels, like C and T.

That's the earliest find of r1b, so they just assume it didn't exist before then, then make up numbers to that agree with this assessment. Early celts along with many others all cremated, though. It was only later they started to bury in mounds and it was usually only chieftans and such.



From a mitochondrial DNA perspective, haplogroup H, which has high (~ 40%) throughout Europe, has received similar attention. Early studies by Richards et al (2000) purported that it arose 28 - 23,000 years ago (kya), spreading into Europe ~ 20 kya, before then re-expanding from an Iberian glacial refuge ~ 15 kya, calculations subsequently corroborated by Pereira (2004).[90] However, a larger study by Roostalu (2006), incorporating more data from the Near East, suggested that whilst Hg H did begin to expand c. 20 kya, this was limited to the Near East, Caucasus and Southeastern Europe. Rather its subsequent spread further west occurred later, in the post-glacial period from a postulated South Caucasian refugium.[91] This hypothesis has been supported by a recent ancient DNA analysis study, which links the expansion of mtDNA Hg H in Western Europe with the Bell Beaker phenomenon.[92]

Like I said, made up fantasies. Even if it's POSSIBLE this is true, there's no reason to think it actually is. For every other place on earth they assume whatever location something is concentrated in is where it comes from, except in Iberia where it someone came from outside and expanded in iberia, and then disappeared in it's original location. Of all the stupid BS in anthropology this is the most ridiculous one.

Even if molecular clock crap meant something, the dates are falsified by the newer paper that looks at all the ancient H mtdna samples we have.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

From Eupedia. Puts entry at around 2100BCE. Early Bronze age time.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/R1b-migration-map.jpg

Can we not test this man for R-l21? this one would be of interest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/archaeology/king_stonehenge_01.shtml

There are links to Beaker culture & bronze age culture, Spain & Central Europe. The age nearly fits.



Study of the two men's skeletons revealed that they shared an unusual trait, but one that was probably unknown to them. Some bones at the top of their insteps that are not normally articulated, are articulated. This would not have caused them any inconvenience, but this trait is very rare. To find two individuals who share it, buried so closely to each other, strongly suggests that they were related. Radiocarbon dates suggest that the second burial is slightly later than the Archer's, but whether they were brothers, cousins, or father and son, is not known.


I've got this too, btw. Anyone who has a rolling stride when they run probably has it.

It's another neanderthal trait, too. So it seems unlikely he is another G man, he's probably r1b or I.

It seems strange to me that they push so hard to claim that the people who have these traits, which are linked to neanderthals and have a west-east cline, all came from the east.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

But we would need to explain why we only have younger R1b groups in western Europe. Unless the younger ones somehow completely outbred the older lineages in western Europe, but not in other areas like south-east Europe and parts of west Asia. Also mutation rate dating and variance says that it's youngest in the west and north-west of Europe. Also, we have lots of I from old Europe in a similar area, even a Y DNA C, but no R1b until the Bell Beaker period. I think we need more ancient remains tested - in the hundreds - in order to get a conclusive picture.

Not really, that is actually the result you'd expect. Older clades are at the fringes after slowly moving out. Newer replace the older through natural selection and warfare, and drift. Drift makes the minority clades slowly fade away. Just like happened to the lower distribution neolithic clades.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

R1b almost killeld off every other Y-lineage in western Europe.

That is the theory jackson mentioned but if they did, they had to do it between 2800 BC and 1000 BC, without leaving any evidence of any kind it happened.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herxheim_%28archaeological_site%29

I rather think that THIS is what became of the eastern late neolithic farmers, and after that the proto-celts spread out from western europe. Possibly the celtic language did come from the neolithic arrivals from further east though, just like spanish comes from an IE lingua franca and before that they spoke only non IE languages.

[Graham]

Or perhaps an overcrowded Central Europe booming into a sparsely populated Western Europe & better at making babies.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Or perhaps an overcrowded Central Europe booming into a sparsely populated Western Europe & better at making babies.

But we have the same issues for H, mainly in that it has bigger concentrations to the west than in the area it supposedly came out of, and that it's all over north africa (and so is r1b).

But I think a lot of the reason for its expansion is selection. The I clade is the heart attack clade...and probably my own clade. The r1b clade has much fewer heart attacks than other clades and is probably the source of the french paradox. The east english have way more heart attacks than wales or ireland, for example. They also have a reason this would happen, some chemical there's not enough of or too much of or something. Maybe I can find the article.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08/y-chromosome-haplogroup-i-and-heart.html

Maybe these r1bs were largely Is until recently? Still seems unlikely it could have a mass replacement that fast.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herxheim_%28archaeological_site%29

I rather think that THIS is what became of the eastern late neolithic farmers, and after that the proto-celts spread out from western europe. Possibly the celtic language did come from the neolithic arrivals from further east though, just like spanish comes from an IE lingua franca and before that they spoke only non IE languages.

Also, I really wish they would sequence the skulls at herxheim and the similar austrian site to see who was eating who.

[Argang]

Haplogroup I as a factor for coronary heart disease can't be that relevant, otherwise Denmark wouldn't be having lower death rates from it than Spain or British Isles. They only tested men from the Isles in the study showing the connection, so maybe some subclades don't have similar effect.

They should test I1 (maybe even the L22 and Z58 clades) and I2 separately, and also R1a and N1c1 to get a better picture.

http://futurechallenges.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mashapic.jpg

[Jackson]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08/y-chromosome-haplogroup-i-and-heart.html

Maybe these r1bs were largely Is until recently? Still seems unlikely it could have a mass replacement that fast.

Lol one haplogroup can't turn into another just like that when they are so distant.

[Jackson]

Haplogroup I as a factor for coronary heart disease can't be that relevant, otherwise Denmark wouldn't be having lower death rates from it than Spain or British Isles. They only tested men from the Isles in the study showing the connection, so maybe some subclades don't have similar effect.

They should test I1 (maybe even the L22 and Z58 clades) and I2 separately, and also R1a and N1c1 to get a better picture.

http://futurechallenges.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mashapic.jpg

Well areas in the east of the country have more obesity and cholesterol problems than in those in the west, there's also more I in the east, so perhaps that's part of it?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Haplogroup I as a factor for coronary heart disease can't be that relevant, otherwise Denmark wouldn't be having lower death rates from it than Spain or British Isles. They only tested men from the Isles in the study showing the connection, so maybe some subclades don't have similar effect.

They should test I1 (maybe even the L22 and Z58 clades) and I2 separately, and also R1a and N1c1 to get a better picture.

http://futurechallenges.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/mashapic.jpg

If you look at a map with a breakdown county by county it becomes very relevant, and more so when you look at income. There's a lot of r1b and r1a in scandinavia anyway.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/near-eastern-origin-of-european.html

Anyway, the herxheim guys are LBK and do look to come from the east. They spread out for about 1000 years then you see lots of their longhouse structures blown away and people slaughtered. They had some H mtdna but lower than what's further west, and no r1b. They also had some other stuff that is not too common in europe. So I think they expanded west then got wiped out. It's only 2k years later we see the only r1b over than 3k years old with bell beaker, but that big complex which spread all over europe seems to start off in portugal.

[Argang]

If you look at a map with a breakdown county by county it becomes very relevant, and more so when you look at income. There's a lot of r1b and r1a in scandinavia anyway.

I1 is the most common haplogroup in Sweden and Norway, and even in Denmark twice as common as in the UK. So if I1 mattered enough, they should also have more deaths from CHD.

The UK's internal figures don't look east centric, instead it's North/South which means poverty and whatnot probably affects the rates much more.

http://bjcardio.co.uk/files/uploads/2011/08/HeartUk_Fig1.png

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I1 is the most common haplogroup in Sweden and Norway, and even in Denmark twice as common as in the UK. So if I1 mattered enough, they should also have more deaths from CHD.

The UK's internal figures don't look east centric, instead it's North/South which means poverty and whatnot probably affects the rates much more.

http://bjcardio.co.uk/files/uploads/2011/08/HeartUk_Fig1.png

Scottish people are much more germanic than english and have much more I. For england itself, both I frequency and heart attack frequency increase to the east. There's a map for all europe somewhere, I will try to find it.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://jaymans.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/europe-heart-death-men-2000.png

[Jackson]

& R1a aswell? Those fatty-baltoid descended people!

Slightly, but R1a doesn't vary that much in most areas, probably a few percent more at most. It's only really in the heavily Norwegian settled areas in the Isles that you get a significant amount of it.

[Argang]

http://jaymans.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/europe-heart-death-men-2000.png

Southeast England is the least affected region in the Isles, and surely has more I1 than Ireland or Wales. Sweden, Denmark and Norway have the highest I1 frequencies in the world and lower rates than in the Isles.

What I see is more a correlation with R1a and some other groups.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Prisoner Of Ice]

R1a preventing heart attacks, or causing them?

SE of england, outside of london is pretty much farmland (I think). London is where the people are though.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Could be the italic-celtic version of r1b is heart healthy.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mAZESGfNIcc/Tdzh5VvVIlI/AAAAAAAABPo/vwwM_wXVJ-I/s1600/u152_frequency_map_2010_13_small.png

French and italians have it the most, and french have a terrible diet for heart healthiness as far as western medical thinking goes, but the least heart attacks.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~villandra/R1a-map.jpg

I see what you mean about r1a...it's like a spear of heart attack victims impaling europe. I don't know of any studies linking it to heart problems directly, though.

[Argang]

R1a preventing heart attacks, or causing them?

SE of england, outside of london is pretty much farmland (I think). London is where the people are though.

The areas with R1a predominance do seem to have higher frequencies of hear attack.

SE-England is pretty densely populated outside London, which is not really representative of the Eastern English population due to immigrants.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/England_counties_population_(crop).png

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Hmm, very surprising result.

I really have to find my y-dna for sure. It's probably I or r1a...both heart problem zones. No wonder I am in such great shape but my blood pressure keeps slowly climbing. My dad is heart healthy but skinny as a whip and never eats anything but chicken for meat...I don't think I can swing a diet like that.

[Graham]

The Celtic nations aren't that healthy. So am saying nothing else on this map. DNA or the politics of the British state.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg7IVNkCMAA8lGd.jpg:large

[Jackson]

The Celtic nations aren't that healthy. So am saying nothing else on this map. DNA or the politics of the British state.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg7IVNkCMAA8lGd.jpg:large

DNA, politics, even geology.

[Septentrion]

I'd put my bet on L21 arriving in the Isles from either along the Rhine or from northern France west of the Rhine. In terms of self-reported ancestry (less reliable but still follows general trends shown) there's a fair bit of L21 in Germany too, so that's a possibility. Although it doesn't show up as strongly in proper population studies, so i'ts probably over-inflated in this case. It may be that L21 once had a greater spread but has been gradually depleted on the continent by U152, U106 and other haplogroups like R1a and I1/I2. I mean if you look at L21 it seems to constantly survive in fringe areas, areas that also happened to retain their Celtic language against Romance and Germanic languages. I mean two Bell Beakers in Germany both had R1b-P312, but no sign of U106, so clearly U106 has expanded south and west at some point since then (either that or it's just a coincidence), and U152 looks to have done the same in some areas. It's possible that Rhenish Bell Beaker (and other Bell Beaker groups) brought some of it (or much of it?) to Britain, although if both populations had it in reasonable amounts, it may be practically invisible. One of the most recent estimates was that it occurred in the far-southeast of Britain and expanded after that, so maybe if that is the case it came to dominate in the Isles and moved out from there? I don't know.

R1b-L21 subclade came to Britain from Central Europe. The most common R1b subclade in Ireland, Wales, Highland Scotland is the R1b-L21, while the most common R1b subclade in England is R1b-U106 as it is in the Netherlands and Danemark.

[Rocinante]

R1b-L21 here.