Black Irish descended from Travellers.

[JQP4545]

I think I've figured out the origin of the "Black Irish". In the 1500's the British started to deport their gypsies from England and many ended up in Scotland. There they mixed with the Highland Scots, thus the large number of dark complected Irish from Ulster. I have ancestors from Ulster and my relatives have genetic matches who are Jewish and bits of DNA from North India.:cool:

[JQP4545]

This also explains the high levels of haplogroups G2 and E3b in Ulster.

[Lusos]

Genetic research shows a strong similarity between the Y chromosome haplotypes of males from north-western Spain and Portugal and Irish men with Gaelic surnames. The frequency of Y-DNA haplogroup R1b (the most common haplogroup in Europe) is highest in the populations of Atlantic Europe and, due to European emigration, in North America, South America, and Australia. In Ireland and the Basque Country its frequency exceeds 90% and approaches 100% in Western Ireland. The incidence of R1b is 70% or more in Celtic regions – Cumbria and Cornwall in England, the Celtic Calheça region in Portugal (Dourany, Minhão (Braga and Viana do Castelo) and Trás-os-Montes), northern Spain (Celtic Galicia, Asturias, León, Cantabria and Basque Country), western France (Béarn, Gascony, Guyenne, Saintonge, Angoumois, Aunis, Poitou, Touraine, Anjou and the Celtic Brittany), and Celtic Countries – Wales and Scotland in Britain. R1b's incidence declines gradually with distance from these areas but it is still common across the central areas of Europe. R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in Germany and in the Low Countries, and is common in southern Scandinavia and in northern and central Italy. This led to writers, such as Stephen Oppenheimer and Bryan Sykes, to conclude that the majority of Irish people (and indeed all natives of the British Isles) primarily descend from an "Iberian refugium" population bottleneck dating back to the last ice age.
However, this haplogroup is now believed by some to have originated over 12,000 years more recently than previously thought. It thus follows that Irish and many other R1b subclades will be considerably younger than the maximum age of 18,000 years. The previous estimates, based on inaccurate dating methods (30,000+ years BP), made R1b and its subclades seem to be more useful indicators of the paleolithic era populations of western Europe than they actually are. According to recent 2009 studies by Bramanti et al. and Malmström et al. on mtDNA,] related western European populations appear to be largely from the neolithic and not paleolithic era, as previously thought. There was discontinuity between mesolithic central Europe and modern European populations mainly due to an extremely high frequency of haplogroup U (particularly U5) types in mesolithic central European sites.
That there exists an especially strong genetic association between the Irish and the Basques, one even closer than the relationship between other west Europeans, was first challenged in 2005, and in 2007 scientists began looking at the possibility of a more recent Mesolithic- or even Neolithic-era entrance of R1b into Europe. A new study published in 2010 by Balaresque et al. implies either a Mesolithic- or Neolithic- (not Paleolithic) era entrance of R1b into Europe.However, all these genetic studies are in agreement that the Irish and Basque (along with the Welsh) share the highest percentage of R1b populations.

[JQP4545]

Genetic research shows a strong similarity between the Y chromosome haplotypes of males from north-western Spain and Portugal and Irish men with Gaelic surnames. The frequency of Y-DNA haplogroup R1b (the most common haplogroup in Europe) is highest in the populations of Atlantic Europe and, due to European emigration, in North America, South America, and Australia. In Ireland and the Basque Country its frequency exceeds 90% and approaches 100% in Western Ireland. The incidence of R1b is 70% or more in Celtic regions – Cumbria and Cornwall in England, the Celtic Calheça region in Portugal (Dourany, Minhão (Braga and Viana do Castelo) and Trás-os-Montes), northern Spain (Celtic Galicia, Asturias, León, Cantabria and Basque Country), western France (Béarn, Gascony, Guyenne, Saintonge, Angoumois, Aunis, Poitou, Touraine, Anjou and the Celtic Brittany), and Celtic Countries – Wales and Scotland in Britain. R1b's incidence declines gradually with distance from these areas but it is still common across the central areas of Europe. R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in Germany and in the Low Countries, and is common in southern Scandinavia and in northern and central Italy. This led to writers, such as Stephen Oppenheimer and Bryan Sykes, to conclude that the majority of Irish people (and indeed all natives of the British Isles) primarily descend from an "Iberian refugium" population bottleneck dating back to the last ice age.
However, this haplogroup is now believed by some to have originated over 12,000 years more recently than previously thought. It thus follows that Irish and many other R1b subclades will be considerably younger than the maximum age of 18,000 years. The previous estimates, based on inaccurate dating methods (30,000+ years BP), made R1b and its subclades seem to be more useful indicators of the paleolithic era populations of western Europe than they actually are. According to recent 2009 studies by Bramanti et al. and Malmström et al. on mtDNA,] related western European populations appear to be largely from the neolithic and not paleolithic era, as previously thought. There was discontinuity between mesolithic central Europe and modern European populations mainly due to an extremely high frequency of haplogroup U (particularly U5) types in mesolithic central European sites.
That there exists an especially strong genetic association between the Irish and the Basques, one even closer than the relationship between other west Europeans, was first challenged in 2005, and in 2007 scientists began looking at the possibility of a more recent Mesolithic- or even Neolithic-era entrance of R1b into Europe. A new study published in 2010 by Balaresque et al. implies either a Mesolithic- or Neolithic- (not Paleolithic) era entrance of R1b into Europe.However, all these genetic studies are in agreement that the Irish and Basque (along with the Welsh) share the highest percentage of R1b populations.

Maybe we are both right.

[Lusos]

Maybe we are both right.

The text is of proper scientific research.

[1stLightHorse]

I think I've figured out the origin of the "Black Irish". In the 1500's the British started to deport their gypsies from England and many ended up in Scotland. There they mixed with the Highland Scots, thus the large number of dark complected Irish from Ulster. I have ancestors from Ulster and my relatives have genetic matches who are Jewish and bits of DNA from North India.:cool:

Maybe Mark Kerr is part Gypsy.

http://www.freakestphysique.blogger.com.br/mark_kerr1.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

Genetic research shows a strong similarity between the Y chromosome haplotypes of males from north-western Spain and Portugal and Irish men with Gaelic surnames. The frequency of Y-DNA haplogroup R1b (the most common haplogroup in Europe) is highest in the populations of Atlantic Europe and, due to European emigration, in North America, South America, and Australia. In Ireland and the Basque Country its frequency exceeds 90% and approaches 100% in Western Ireland. The incidence of R1b is 70% or more in Celtic regions – Cumbria and Cornwall in England, the Celtic Calheça region in Portugal (Dourany, Minhão (Braga and Viana do Castelo) and Trás-os-Montes), northern Spain (Celtic Galicia, Asturias, León, Cantabria and Basque Country), western France (Béarn, Gascony, Guyenne, Saintonge, Angoumois, Aunis, Poitou, Touraine, Anjou and the Celtic Brittany), and Celtic Countries – Wales and Scotland in Britain. R1b's incidence declines gradually with distance from these areas but it is still common across the central areas of Europe. R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in Germany and in the Low Countries, and is common in southern Scandinavia and in northern and central Italy. This led to writers, such as Stephen Oppenheimer and Bryan Sykes, to conclude that the majority of Irish people (and indeed all natives of the British Isles) primarily descend from an "Iberian refugium" population bottleneck dating back to the last ice age.
However, this haplogroup is now believed by some to have originated over 12,000 years more recently than previously thought. It thus follows that Irish and many other R1b subclades will be considerably younger than the maximum age of 18,000 years. The previous estimates, based on inaccurate dating methods (30,000+ years BP), made R1b and its subclades seem to be more useful indicators of the paleolithic era populations of western Europe than they actually are. According to recent 2009 studies by Bramanti et al. and Malmström et al. on mtDNA,] related western European populations appear to be largely from the neolithic and not paleolithic era, as previously thought. There was discontinuity between mesolithic central Europe and modern European populations mainly due to an extremely high frequency of haplogroup U (particularly U5) types in mesolithic central European sites.
That there exists an especially strong genetic association between the Irish and the Basques, one even closer than the relationship between other west Europeans, was first challenged in 2005, and in 2007 scientists began looking at the possibility of a more recent Mesolithic- or even Neolithic-era entrance of R1b into Europe. A new study published in 2010 by Balaresque et al. implies either a Mesolithic- or Neolithic- (not Paleolithic) era entrance of R1b into Europe.However, all these genetic studies are in agreement that the Irish and Basque (along with the Welsh) share the highest percentage of R1b populations.

I think these studies are old and the British Isles don't appear to have a descent from the Spanish. While these populations are R1b the subclades are different. If they did descend from the Spanish they would cluster closer to them.

[Smaug]

Bullshite, there isn't such a thing as "Black Irish", just Irish with dark pigmentation, who are just Irish as their ginger or blonde countrymen.

[Grace O'Malley]

I think I've figured out the origin of the "Black Irish". In the 1500's the British started to deport their gypsies from England and many ended up in Scotland. There they mixed with the Highland Scots, thus the large number of dark complected Irish from Ulster. I have ancestors from Ulster and my relatives have genetic matches who are Jewish and bits of DNA from North India.:cool:

How do you know where you Jewish and bits of DNA from North India come from? You've got ancestry from a few different countries.

[Grace O'Malley]

Bullshite, there isn't such a thing as "Black Irish", just Irish with dark pigmentation, who are just Irish as their ginger or blonde countrymen.

That seems to be a bit too logical for a lot of people Uhtred.

[Smaug]

That seems to be a bit too logical for a lot of people Uhtred.

Aye, and Travellers aren't "dark", because they do not belong to a different ethnicity, they are just poor Irish from the 1800's famine.

[JQP4545]

How do you know where you Jewish and bits of DNA from North India come from? You've got ancestry from a few different countries.

Comparing it with other people and seeing where they come from.

[Lusos]

I think these studies are old and the British Isles don't appear to have a descent from the Spanish. While these populations are R1b the subclades are different. If they did descend from the Spanish they would cluster closer to them.

What I get from the text is simple.Iberians(They don't talk solely about Spaniards)French and others are of the same stock.
Not all,obviously.

[Proctor]

What I get from the text is simple.Iberians(They don't talk solely about Spaniards)French and others are of the same stock.
Not all,obviously.

Very closely related but not of the same stock I think, unless you're talking about haplogroups?

[Lusos]

Very closely related but not of the same stock I think, unless you're talking about haplogroups?

Well,this Peoples have developed separately,so yeah,closely related.
We are not Brits nor French or...
Posters are the ones that usual say for a Portuguese per Example:
"He looks French.Or he looks Brit."
But no one looks Portuguese.
Go figure.

[Grace O'Malley]

Comparing it with other people and seeing where they come from.

Irish people don't have any North Indian or Jewish dna. They have Gedrosian so I don't know if that is what you're calling North Indian?

[Grace O'Malley]

What I get from the text is simple.Iberians(They don't talk solely about Spaniards)French and others are of the same stock.
Not all,obviously.

Irish don't seem to have a particular descent from Iberians though. This is from my understanding of the latest genetics. I know there is still a lot of information on the internet saying that the "Celts" closest genetic relationship is with the Basque but this is from older genetic studies that came to this conclusion because of the high amount of y R1b in both regions and belief in the Ice Age Refuge theory. Later studies have shown that R1b is much younger and both these areas have different subclades. Ireland appears to be majority R1b L21 whereas the Basque and Spanish are majority P312 (S116). The biggest clincher though is the autosomal dna. The Irish should be closer to the Spanish cluster if they have some ancestry. Please feel free to correct me if I have taken this up incorrectly.

There is an interesting thread I was reading on this subject on Anthrogenica. I presume it is okay to link this as I've seen other forums' threads posted on here.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-1413.html
http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-1755.html

[Weedman]

I think these studies are old and the British Isles don't appear to have a descent from the Spanish. While these populations are R1b the subclades are different. If they did descend from the Spanish they would cluster closer to them. "black" Irish are merely descendants of neolithic Irish settlers. Their Altanto-Med type is found throughout the British Isles, Its not unique to Ireland.

[Weedman]

Irish people don't have any North Indian or Jewish dna. They have Gedrosian so I don't know if that is what you're calling North Indian?
:rolleyes:
Black Irish are descended from African Americans who were sent to Ireland by Abolitionists in the pre-Civil War era in America much like many were sent to Liberia.
They then greatly mixed with the Gypsy Irish, the Jewish Irish, , the Spanish Armada Irish and the Italian-Irish half breeds as well as the Black Welsh, the Black English and the Black Scots who were themselves greatly mixed with Afro-Caribbean and Pakistani ancestry.:picard1: jk

It's all in the DNA research LOL! they're blacker than blacketty black black

many famous people were black irish including jack the ripper (half-black irish) and Albert Einstein (Jew-Irish/black-Irish mixed)

:lame:post

[Prisoner Of Ice]

How do you know where you Jewish and bits of DNA from North India come from? You've got ancestry from a few different countries.

If he has greek, he will have some jewish in there.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I think I've figured out the origin of the "Black Irish". In the 1500's the British started to deport their gypsies from England and many ended up in Scotland. There they mixed with the Highland Scots, thus the large number of dark complected Irish from Ulster. I have ancestors from Ulster and my relatives have genetic matches who are Jewish and bits of DNA from North India.:cool:

The ulsters aren't the dark haired ones, though. They come more from southeast. The black irish are also pale skinned and usually light eyes, they are just talking about hair really. Highland scots are also not darker of hair than ireland is, really, though some in both have black hair.

The neolithic farmers probably had black hair. There were some dinaric tribes in the isles as well that probably did, too.

You probably get the jewish part from greece, but may get it from scotland as well. Doubtful you got it from ireland though there's some there too.

Irish travelers also have their own y-dna clade, so it's very unlikely. Maybe there was originally some bands of gypsies that turned into the irish travelers over time but even that is iffy and has no DNA link.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Irish don't seem to have a particular descent from Iberians though. This is from my understanding of the latest genetics. I know there is still a lot of information on the internet saying that the "Celts" closest genetic relationship is with the Basque but this is from older genetic studies that came to this conclusion because of the high amount of y R1b in both regions and belief in the Ice Age Refuge theory. Later studies have shown that R1b is much younger and both these areas have different subclades. Ireland appears to be majority R1b L21 whereas the Basque and Spanish are majority P312 (S116). The biggest clincher though is the autosomal dna. The Irish should be closer to the Spanish cluster if they have some ancestry. Please feel free to correct me if I have taken this up incorrectly.

There is an interesting thread I was reading on this subject on Anthrogenica. I presume it is okay to link this as I've seen other forums' threads posted on here.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-1413.html
http://www.anthrogenica.com/archive/index.php/t-1755.html

You'd say more they have a common ancestry because the neolithic farmers (atlantids) and because of the celts. So there's definite overlap and quite a few migrants in both directions but not an origin of one in the other.

[Anglojew]

"black" Irish are merely descendants of neolithic Irish settlers. Their Altanto-Med type is found throughout the British Isles, Its not unique to Ireland.

Exactly, successful waves of Indo-Europeans usually pushed them to the West Coasts of the British Isles. They're just of a slightly different racial stock than IEs but probably they're all mixed up now in different combinations anyway.

It's ironic that descendants of the oldest inhabitants of the British Isles are constantly being accused of being recent arrivals.

[Grace O'Malley]

You'd say more they have a common ancestry because the neolithic farmers (atlantids) and because of the celts. So there's definite overlap and quite a few migrants in both directions but not an origin of one in the other.

In Mallory's recent book The Origins of the Irish the only place that the Irish were before coming to Ireland was Britain so both these populations have the same origin. They came to the islands when Britain was connected to Europe. This is why all these populations cluster close together on autosomal dna and to other North Western European populations. Later the British got more continental genes than the Irish as they were part of the Roman Empire and then the Anglo-Saxons so Ireland and Scotland to a lesser extent were more isolated populations and this explains why they are particularly close genetic wise. People need to look at genetics instead of saying there are links with Atlantids or Borrebys or whatever term is used. This terminology was used in the past by anthropologists to try and work out similarities and differences in populations but now we have genetics which are much more accurate.

I think people are having a hard time letting go of the older R1b conclusions and there are still numerous articles connecting populations on R1b and no up to date information on subclades and the fact that R1b came from an East to West direction and is actually much younger than what the older studies thought. With populations I think people have to use their common sense as well. All populations are more closely related to their neighbours than some more distant population and that makes perfect sense. If e.g. the Irish or Welsh were different than the English and more related to the Spanish or Portuguese they wouldn't form a cluster right with the English. The would cluster away and more south and be closer to the Iberian cluster. This appears very clear to me. Someone should make a thread on the subject for discussion so that the old theories can be dispelled with up to date genetic information.

[Rambo07]

Black Irish are just dark haired Irish, big fucking deal. They have been there for aeons.

Black Irish have nothing to do with Travellers ( who are very blond btw) , Jews, Kale Gypsies or shipwrecked Spaniards.

The Gerdosian/ANI component is a South Asian specific marker it has nothing to do with them.

[JQP4545]

The ulsters aren't the dark haired ones, though. They come more from southeast. The black irish are also pale skinned and usually light eyes, they are just talking about hair really. Highland scots are also not darker of hair than ireland is, really, though some in both have black hair.

The neolithic farmers probably had black hair. There were some dinaric tribes in the isles as well that probably did, too.

You probably get the jewish part from greece, but may get it from scotland as well. Doubtful you got it from ireland though there's some there too.

Irish travelers also have their own y-dna clade, so it's very unlikely. Maybe there was originally some bands of gypsies that turned into the irish travelers over time but even that is iffy and has no DNA link.

Couldn't come from Greece as we are talking about my mom, whose ancestors come from Ireland, Germany, and French Canada.

[JQP4545]

Most likely fit is 90.3% (+- 2.1%) Europe (various subcontinents)

and 9.7% (+- 2.1%) Mideast (various subcontinents)



The following are possible population sets and their fractions,

most likely at the top

English= 0.900 Jewish= 0.100 or

English= 0.922 Armenian= 0.078 or

English= 0.911 Sephardic= 0.089 or

English= 0.915 Cypriot= 0.085 or

Germany= 0.877 Sephardic= 0.123 or

English= 0.932 Druze= 0.068 or

Germany= 0.863 Jewish= 0.137 or

English= 0.918 Georgian= 0.082 or

Germany= 0.885 Cypriot= 0.115 or

Germany= 0.906 Druze= 0.094

[Caismeachd]

:rolleyes:
Black Irish are descended from African Americans who were sent to Ireland by Abolitionists in the pre-Civil War era in America much like many were sent to Liberia.
They then greatly mixed with the Gypsy Irish, the Jewish Irish, , the Spanish Armada Irish and the Italian-Irish half breeds as well as the Black Welsh, the Black English and the Black Scots who were themselves greatly mixed with Afro-Caribbean and Pakistani ancestry.:picard1: jk

It's all in the DNA research LOL! they're blacker than blacketty black black

many famous people were black irish including jack the ripper (half-black irish) and Albert Einstein (Jew-Irish/black-Irish mixed)

:lame:post

I agree with what you say but give the guy a break. He just doesn't know any better.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Exactly, successful waves of Indo-Europeans usually pushed them to the West Coasts of the British Isles. They're just of a slightly different racial stock than IEs but probably they're all mixed up now in different combinations anyway.

It's ironic that descendants of the oldest inhabitants of the British Isles are constantly being accused of being recent arrivals.

The hunter gatherers survived and eventually dominated the island, and they are still the oldest.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

In Mallory's recent book The Origins of the Irish the only place that the Irish were before coming to Ireland was Britain so both these populations have the same origin. They came to the islands when Britain was connected to Europe. This is why all these populations cluster close together on autosomal dna and to other North Western European populations.

Neanderthals were all over britain before dogger bay inland lake collapsed. It's probably been continuously inhabited since then, though very lightly in glacial times. There's auroch dna in irish cattle and differences that imply they are truly indigenous to ireland and have been there since neanderthal times or more.

Since then there's been endless wave of migration.



Later the British got more continental genes than the Irish as they were part of the Roman Empire and then the Anglo-Saxons so Ireland and Scotland to a lesser extent were more isolated populations and this explains why they are particularly close genetic wise. People need to look at genetics instead of saying there are links with Atlantids or Borrebys or whatever term is used. This terminology was used in the past by anthropologists to try and work out similarities and differences in populations but now we have genetics which are much more accurate.

No, archaeology is MUCH more reliable that looking at current genetics. As has been proven about a million times. There is also "theory" involved which can be shaky but the archaeology itself is solidly factual. DNA of modern people is no different than taking a look at a crown in a city, almost totally useless. All the neolithics we find in ireland so far are G y-dna types who are little to do with modern irish. But that doesn't tell the whole story because it's a lot harder to fing hunter gatherer remains and celts and many others cremated their remains.



I think people are having a hard time letting go of the older R1b conclusions and there are still numerous articles connecting populations on R1b and no up to date information on subclades and the fact that R1b came from an East to West direction and is actually much younger than what the older studies thought.

This is not true. Archaeology says otherwise, 100%. It's just impossible. The argument here is mostly linguistic as genetics say they came out of the west, too. However there's a gigantic flaw in the linguistic argument (which are almost always crap that can be thrown out anyway), which is that all of spain was non IE until very recent times. So r1b was not spread by people who spoke it settling into europe...this is 100% fantasy that comes from internet retards. It's now basically disproven, and has never been a consensus anywhere but internet forums.



With populations I think people have to use their common sense as well. All populations are more closely related to their neighbours than some more distant population and that makes perfect sense. If e.g. the Irish or Welsh were different than the English and more related to the Spanish or Portuguese they wouldn't form a cluster right with the English. The would cluster away and more south and be closer to the Iberian cluster. This appears very clear to me. Someone should make a thread on the subject for discussion so that the old theories can be dispelled with up to date genetic information.
That's not true either...like I said before, 'clustering' really means jack shit. ANYONE will cluster with their neighbors EVEN IF THEY ARE ORIGINALLY TOTALLY UNRELATED. Because you actually will have some people travel back and forth. However we don't care about the average populations but the original ones. England and scotland is very heavily germanic especially on the east coast.

The biggest reason they cluster so much today is that there's been so many people from scotland and england who've flooded in. Irish travelers show a genetic distance from other irish as if they split off 1000 years ago. I doubt that they did. More likely they would show much tighter connection to any irish bones sequenced before war and plantation.

[Grace O'Malley]

Neanderthals were all over britain before dogger bay inland lake collapsed. It's probably been continuously inhabited since then, though very lightly in glacial times. There's auroch dna in irish cattle and differences that imply they are truly indigenous to ireland and have been there since neanderthal times or more.

Since then there's been endless wave of migration.


No, archaeology is MUCH more reliable that looking at current genetics. As has been proven about a million times. There is also "theory" involved which can be shaky but the archaeology itself is solidly factual. DNA of modern people is no different than taking a look at a crown in a city, almost totally useless. All the neolithics we find in ireland so far are G y-dna types who are little to do with modern irish. But that doesn't tell the whole story because it's a lot harder to fing hunter gatherer remains and celts and many others cremated their remains.


This is not true. Archaeology says otherwise, 100%. It's just impossible. The argument here is mostly linguistic as genetics say they came out of the west, too. However there's a gigantic flaw in the linguistic argument (which are almost always crap that can be thrown out anyway), which is that all of spain was non IE until very recent times. So r1b was not spread by people who spoke it settling into europe...this is 100% fantasy that comes from internet retards. It's now basically disproven, and has never been a consensus anywhere but internet forums.


That's not true either...like I said before, 'clustering' really means jack shit. ANYONE will cluster with their neighbors EVEN IF THEY ARE ORIGINALLY TOTALLY UNRELATED. Because you actually will have some people travel back and forth. However we don't care about the average populations but the original ones. England and scotland is very heavily germanic especially on the east coast.

The biggest reason they cluster so much today is that there's been so many people from scotland and england who've flooded in. Irish travelers show a genetic distance from other irish as if they split off 1000 years ago. I doubt that they did. More likely they would show much tighter connection to any irish bones sequenced before war and plantation.

Interesting you mention archeology because Professor J P Mallory, an Irish American is an archeologist and is a world expert on the interconnection of archaeology and linguistics. He is Emeritus Professor of Prehistoric Archaeology at Queen’s University Belfast and a member of the Royal Irish Academy. The dna used in the book The Origins of the Irish is already outdated. I personally haven't read the book but have read about the conclusions. I really need to read it. Autosomal dna is used to show how close populations are to each other because it looks at all the dna. If populations cluster together this shows how similar they are. The reason why Irish Travellers show genetic distance from the main Irish population is due to isolation just like how the Icelandic population has deviated from Norway and Ireland/Scotland. Irish genetics show a lack of diversity so there doesn't appear to have been a lot of outsider input. Ireland has been fairly isolated as far as Europe goes. The reason why the Irish show such a close relationship to the British is because they have similar origins. There has been English/Scots and Welsh input into Ireland but not to the extent that you imply. The British have had more input from the Anglo-Saxons but main bulk of the populations are very similar.

Anyway Sunshine what's your theory about Irish origins?

[Weedman]

Interesting you mention archeology because Professor J P Mallory, an Irish American is an archeologist and is a world expert on the interconnection of archaeology and linguistics. He is Emeritus Professor of Prehistoric Archaeology at Queen’s University Belfast and a member of the Royal Irish Academy. The dna used in the book The Origins of the Irish is already outdated. I personally haven't read the book but have read about the conclusions. I really need to read it. Autosomal dna is used to show how close populations are to each other because it looks at all the dna. If populations cluster together this shows how similar they are. The reason why Irish Travellers show genetic distance from the main Irish population is due to isolation just like how the Icelandic population has deviated from Norway and Ireland/Scotland. Irish genetics show a lack of diversity so there doesn't appear to have been a lot of outsider input. Ireland has been fairly isolated as far as Europe goes. The reason why the Irish show such a close relationship to the British is because they have similar origins. There has been English/Scots and Welsh input into Ireland but not to the extent that you imply. The British have had more input from the Anglo-Saxons but main bulk of the populations are very similar.

Anyway Sunshine what's your theory about Irish origins? since you said Sunshine, I assume you're asking me?, LOL jk
well ok darling here it is-

you got Mesolithic settlers in the British Isles, including Ireland and then you got the Neolithic settlers who mixed with the Mesolithic peeps and built the great stone circles and megaliths throughout the Isles.
Then the early Bronze Age settlers came. They were proto Celts and spread throughout the Isles. They also kept cultural ties with early proto Celtic speakers on the mainland. There were other more minor successive waves of incoming Celtic peoples too but they mainly settled in Britain (England/Scotland) and less so in Ireland although there were a few. The the Vikings came to Ireland and the Normans which, neither one left any significant genetic imprint on the people.
That pretty much does it for Ireland.
The reason they have somewhat basic close genetic matches with both the English and Scots is because Britain has had the exact same wave of early migrants/invaders as Ireland. The only real difference is there was more Germanic input in Britain later on which only added to the populations there.

Probably the largest genetic impact on the Irish are of course the bronze age peoples/Celts and then next the neolithic and mesolithic peoples.

The Mesolithic peoples were indigenous to Europe but the Neolithic settlers came originally from southern Europe into the NW and the Isles including Ireland.
They heavily mixed with the native mesolithic population. Then the bronze age peoples came originally from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and into Western Europe and the Atlantic facade of Europe from France to Scotland. Again there were other Celtic migrants to the Isles too, later, mostly from Central Europe and Gaul but they settled more in England, Scotland than in Ireland.
The first wave of Bronze age peoples in Ireland mixed with the pre-existing groups as well. Again they kept loose cultural ties with Celts from the mainland and is why there was an Irish La Tene culture influence that took on a distinctive Irish/atlantic aspect at some point.

Then in the early modern era, the English colonized small parts of Ireland like the Pale and of course Ulster later on but the only area that was affected to any real degree genetically was Ulster. But since the 2 groups tended to stay within their own communities and never really intermarried in a large scale most native Irish of Ulster were not affected genetically by the Scots and English settlers. Least not to any large degree anyway.

[Grace O'Malley]

since you said Sunshine, I assume you're asking me?, LOL jk
well ok darling here it is-

you got Mesolithic settlers in the British Isles, including Ireland and then you got the Neolithic settlers who mixed with the Mesolithic peeps and built the great stone circles and megaliths throughout the Isles.
Then the early Bronze Age settlers came. They were proto Celts and spread throughout the Isles. They also kept cultural ties with early proto Celtic speakers on the mainland. There were other more minor successive waves of incoming Celtic peoples too but they mainly settled in Britain (England/Scotland) and less so in Ireland although there were a few. The the Vikings came to Ireland and the Normans which, neither one left any significant genetic imprint on the people.
That pretty much does it for Ireland.
The reason they have somewhat basic close genetic matches with both the English and Scots is because Britain has had the exact same wave of early migrants/invaders as Ireland. The only real difference is there was more Germanic input in Britain later on which only added to the populations there.

Probably the largest genetic impact on the Irish are of course the bronze age peoples/Celts and then next the neolithic and mesolithic peoples.

The Mesolithic peoples were indigenous to Europe but the Neolithic settlers came originally from southern Europe into the NW and the Isles including Ireland.
They heavily mixed with the native mesolithic population. Then the bronze age peoples came originally from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and into Western Europe and the Atlantic facade of Europe from France to Scotland. Again there were other Celtic migrants to the Isles too, later, mostly from Central Europe and Gaul but they settled more in England, Scotland than in Ireland.
The first wave of Bronze age peoples in Ireland mixed with the pre-existing groups as well. Again they kept loose cultural ties with Celts from the mainland and is why there was an Irish La Tene culture influence that took on a distinctive Irish/atlantic aspect at some point.

Then in the early modern era, the English colonized small parts of Ireland like the Pale and of course Ulster later on but the only area that was affected to any real degree genetically was Ulster. But since the 2 groups tended to stay within their own communities and never really intermarried in a large scale most native Irish of Ulster were not affected genetically by the Scots and English settlers. Least not to any large degree anyway.

Very good summation Sunshine. I concur with what you have said. The Irish and British are very closely related populations but the British have had more continental input. We Irish seriously need some foreign dna. Thank God for the Polish and Lithuanians.;)

[JQP4545]

http://www.travellerstimes.org.uk/blog.aspx?c=f1b1c82c-0f3c-4edf-98cd-502ea80ed8fa&n=1e58d69b-7484-4869-93a2-48e5f2945eab


I have both people in my family who will admit it and deny it. All agree to having original ancestors who migrated from Spain to Ireland during the 1700-1800's, but not all would agree that we are Gypsies. Ireland is a screwed up place in many respects. Because after you been living there a while and set down root and talk like them they refuse to see you as being different.

The English, on the other hand, will point out your difference no matter how slight or watered down it might be and will never let you think you’re fully English despite all their political correctness geared towards other minority groups. I don't know what's worse; complete denial of your existence or complete exclusion?

I mean Gypsies have been in the UK for 500 years. Many Romanichals in my book are more bred out and watered down then my family. You won’t find any Blonds, redheads or light skinhead people on that side of my family. We know from oral history and recent DNA, that we are not completely indigenous to there and that many of us migrated much later then many Romanichals.

Five hundred years ago we could have been in North Africa, Spain or Greece Two hundred years ago we were somewhere in Andalusia, Spain. We also know that Irish Romanies stopped off in Scotland before Ireland. Records show that boat loads of “Egyptians” where transported to Galway from Scotland in 1642 - the earliest record of Gypsies in Ireland.

Although they deny we exist another record said most Irish Egyptians where of mixed stock and watered down, but real ones where spotted in 1814 in Ballaghadreen, County Roscommon in Ireland.

[Figaro]

Dark hair has existed there before so bloody recent. For much impact on the general genepool you'd need numerous WAVE after WAVE of these people for YEARS or any other immigrant group. This also reminds me of the Spanish Armada theory, which is just silly.

A lot of Scottish celebrities have dark, curly hair.

[JQP4545]

Dark hair has existed there before so bloody recent. For much impact on the general genepool you'd need numerous WAVE after WAVE of these people for YEARS or any other immigrant group. This also reminds me of the Spanish Armada theory, which is just silly.

A lot of Scottish celebrities have dark, curly hair.

What about a substantial minority? I didn't say everyone with dark hair has Roma blood, just that some Travellers may have mixed with Spanish Roma.

[Grace O'Malley]

What about a substantial minority? I didn't say everyone with dark hair has Roma blood, just that some Travellers may have mixed with Spanish Roma.

No Travellers haven't mixed with any Roma. They are just an isolated Irish group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers

They have very bad dress sense.

http://i47.tinypic.com/18gndj.jpg
http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/700-9/photos/1306505279-irish-travellers-in-the-uk_705869.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/20/article-2051160-0E711EAF00000578-806_634x486.jpg

[JQP4545]

No Travellers haven't mixed with any Roma. They are just an isolated Irish group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers

They have very bad dress sense.

http://i47.tinypic.com/18gndj.jpg
http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/700-9/photos/1306505279-irish-travellers-in-the-uk_705869.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/20/article-2051160-0E711EAF00000578-806_634x486.jpg

Some look Mediterranean too:

44654

[Grace O'Malley]

That man doesn't look Med to me. He looks very Irish. I don't know if the people below would be described as Med? Anyway the vast majority of Irish Travellers look like what they are. They are a subset of the Irish population who are more inbred from a smaller genepool. Their genes don't show any outside influence.

http://www.itmtrav.ie/images/home/itm_slide8.jpg

Here's a famous person who is of Irish Traveller ancestry.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qbTqxJSWLuI/TostEQvvMXI/AAAAAAAAATw/q7-ftDonTKY/s400/David%2BEssex_Rock%2Bon.jpeg

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Interesting you mention archeology because Professor J P Mallory, an Irish American is an archeologist and is a world expert on the interconnection of archaeology and linguistics. He is Emeritus Professor of Prehistoric Archaeology at Queen’s University Belfast and a member of the Royal Irish Academy. The dna used in the book The Origins of the Irish is already outdated. I personally haven't read the book but have read about the conclusions. I really need to read it. Autosomal dna is used to show how close populations are to each other because it looks at all the dna. If populations cluster together this shows how similar they are. The reason why Irish Travellers show genetic distance from the main Irish population is due to isolation just like how the Icelandic population has deviated from Norway and Ireland/Scotland. Irish genetics show a lack of diversity so there doesn't appear to have been a lot of outsider input. Ireland has been fairly isolated as far as Europe goes. The reason why the Irish show such a close relationship to the British is because they have similar origins. There has been English/Scots and Welsh input into Ireland but not to the extent that you imply. The British have had more input from the Anglo-Saxons but main bulk of the populations are very similar.

Anyway Sunshine what's your theory about Irish origins?

Archaeology and linguistics don't really go together, and linguistics gets proven as crap over and over. There is no way to say exact origins of irish, no one on earth really knows that. We do know when ruins start to arrive and when megalithic stuff was built. But I have gone over it all before anyway.

Also with the clustering, it doesn't work like you think it does. We are not interested in modern populations, having them cluster being next to each other is meaningless and that's not what the point of that sort of analysis is as I have tried to explain before. We care about old populations, and having the travelers to look at we can infer that population has changed a lot since they arose. Which is probably not nearly so long as 1000 years. Probably 200 and at most 400.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I'd love to see how their head size compares to average of ireland today, the irish travelers. I see some serious melonheads in there.

Guy could look med but that lower face gives it away he's not med at all but irish.

[Grace O'Malley]

Archaeology and linguistics don't really go together, and linguistics gets proven as crap over and over. There is no way to say exact origins of irish, no one on earth really knows that. We do know when ruins start to arrive and when megalithic stuff was built. But I have gone over it all before anyway.

Also with the clustering, it doesn't work like you think it does. We are not interested in modern populations, having them cluster being next to each other is meaningless and that's not what the point of that sort of analysis is as I have tried to explain before. We care about old populations, and having the travelers to look at we can infer that population has changed a lot since they arose. Which is probably not nearly so long as 1000 years. Probably 200 and at most 400.

Melonhead there has been no large scale repopulation in Ireland. Even in Britain which has had more invaders from Europe there is still a lot of the original populations' genes. Ireland has had less invaders than Britain. There has been no large scale population replacement. Ireland is situated in North Western Europe so it makes perfect sense that they would cluster with other North Western European populations. Where do you think they originally came from? All my ancestry is Irish going back generations like the majority of Irish. My grandparents never left their native counties. My grandmother went from Sligo to Roscommon because my grandfather was from there. The only reason why the Irish Travellers are separate from the rest of the Irish population is through isolation and inbreeding this is what geneticists say and what has happened.

[Grace O'Malley]

I'd love to see how their head size compares to average of ireland today, the irish travelers. I see some serious melonheads in there.

Guy could look med but that lower face gives it away he's not med at all but irish.

Strangely enough most Irish travellers exhibit a lot of blond and red hair. I think this is because of recessive genes being more likely to surface in populations with a more limited genepool. Possibly that is why populations like the Kalash seem to have more of these traits.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Melonhead there has been no large scale repopulation in Ireland. Even in Britain which has had more invaders from Europe there is still a lot of the original populations' genes. Ireland has had less invaders than Britain. There has been no large scale population replacement. Ireland is situated in North Western Europe so it makes perfect sense that they would cluster with other North Western European populations. Where do you think they originally came from? All my ancestry is Irish going back generations like the majority of Irish. My grandparents never left their native counties. My grandmother went from Sligo to Roscommon because my grandfather was from there. The only reason why the Irish Travellers are separate from the rest of the Irish population is through isolation and inbreeding this is what geneticists say and what has happened.

Germanic types aren't from ireland, and ireland has lots of them now. Even if the surrounding people are all similar it's still repopulation, and that's the history of Ireland. Ireland has been colonized, that's just a fact. Travelers like all closed groups are a refugeum that acts as a window into the past.

[Grace O'Malley]

Germanic types aren't from ireland, and ireland has lots of them now. Even if the surrounding people are all similar it's still repopulation, and that's the history of Ireland. Ireland has been colonized, that's just a fact. Travelers like all closed groups are a refugeum that acts as a window into the past.

The only "Germanic" haplotypes seem to correspond to where the Pale was around Dublin county and Northern Ireland of course. The majority of Irish are R1b L21 though and quite a lot of M222. I think people make the mistake of thinking that blue eyes and blond hair are "Germanic". The majority of Irish are blue eyed so they were obviously always majority blue eyed. Also blond and red hair has always been in the Irish population. Read some of the old Irish mythology and you will see there has always been a sector of the Irish population that has had blond hair. The Irish are a North Western population but that doesn't mean they are Germanic. The reason why the Irish cluster with the rest of North Western Europe is logically because the original population came from the same source. There was Plantations from Britain in southern Ireland but no way could it have replaced the populations that were still there. Even the Normans that came to Ireland assimilated into Irish society to such an extent that they became wild Irish and laws had to be brought in to stop future populations from fraternising with the native Irish. If there was such a large replacement of people from Britain the Republic of Ireland would be overwhelmingly Protestant.

If you know Irish history and read any genetic studies you would know that most Irish have ancestry in Ireland for centuries.

[JQP4545]

Are Travellers descended from Vikings? Many seem to have blonde hair...

[JQP4545]

Black Irish:

44810

[JQP4545]

Black Irish:
1 Norwegian 45.42%
2 Dutch 30.75%
3 French_Basque 15.92%
4 Estonian 5.64%
5 Brahmin_UP 2.01%
6 Austroasiatic_Ho 0.26%
7 Serbian 0.00%
8 Kargopol_Russian 0.00%
9 Sardinian 0.00%
10 Austrian 0.00%

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Are Travellers descended from Vikings? Many seem to have blonde hair...

In spite of what Alice says over and over the difference is because of less mixing in last 400 years. Blonde and red hair being more common doesn't surprise me at all. I am sure a lot of the 'blond' hair is just light brown, though. Which is stereotypical Irish American.

[LightHouse89]

That would count me out as most of my Irish surnames are Norman-Anglo-Norman.

[LightHouse89]

In spite of what Alice says over and over the difference is because of less mixing in last 400 years. Blonde and red hair being more common doesn't surprise me at all. I am sure a lot of the 'blond' hair is just light brown, though. Which is stereotypical Irish American.

Also German a I have light brown hair but brown eyes from my dads French side.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

That would count me out as most of my Irish surnames are Norman-Anglo-Norman.

Well, of course Irish americans would return after that, as well :D

[LightHouse89]

yes with some minor Germanic admixture. but it depends on surnames as those with Norse surnames like Doyle or Norman surnames like mine Powers are more Germanic leaning.

[JQP4545]

Black Irish:
1 Norwegian 45.42%
2 Dutch 30.75%
3 French_Basque 15.92%
4 Estonian 5.64%
5 Brahmin_UP 2.01%
6 Austroasiatic_Ho 0.26%
7 Serbian 0.00%
8 Kargopol_Russian 0.00%
9 Sardinian 0.00%
10 Austrian 0.00%

http://www.historyireland.com/early-modern-history-1500-1700/the-spanish-basque-irish-fishery-trade-in-the-sixteenth-century/

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Also German a I have light brown hair but brown eyes from my dads French side.

In all the old anthro texts the light brown is said to be the most common in Ireland, though I suspect red hair was a lot higher back then as there are just so many redhaired Irish in US. Some of them could be ulster scots, but the number is way more than any group in ireland today.

[LightHouse89]

irish traveler are not genetically related to gypsies and if so its a much older ancestry than gypsies in the british islands.

[LightHouse89]

In all the old anthro texts the light brown is said to be the most common in Ireland, though I suspect red hair was a lot higher back then as there are just so many redhaired Irish in US.

yes we actually all carry the red hair gene but its more probable if we mixed with pure irish women it would resurface. I wish the british/irish government would do more to bring back the number of red heads as they are a declining group I love the stereotype of Irish/Scots being red heads. Red haired women in the british islands are the most attractive to me.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I agree. But nope, ireland will be all black hair and swarthy features with unibrow.

[LightHouse89]

I agree. But nope, ireland will be all black hair and swarthy features with unibrow.

if they continue but luckily I hope nationalist groups do what they can to spare the country but I am no optimist.

[Grace O'Malley]

In spite of what Alice says over and over the difference is because of less mixing in last 400 years. Blonde and red hair being more common doesn't surprise me at all. I am sure a lot of the 'blond' hair is just light brown, though. Which is stereotypical Irish American.

No I mean blond hair. Light brown hair is fairly common in Ireland. They have a higher incidence of blond and red hair just like the Aran Islanders. It seems obvious that these recessive genes are more likely to be expressed in a smaller population. Most Irish have a lot of recessive genes in their genome as can be seen in that most families have either red heads or blonds in their families even if the parents are dark haired.