Bullfighting and Flamenco: Is Spanish culture European?

[Dombra]

Spain's most famous traits are obviously Flamenco and bullfighting. Gitano music and animal cruelty

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Spanish_Gypsy_Girls_NGM-v31-p267.jpg

The Gypsies are the inventors of the most famous Spanish music, only the Moorish Al Andalus has had such fame

http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu224/lizzard_012/TOUR89.jpg

Is this animal cruelty the remnants of Muslim blood-thirst or the more ancient brutality and ignorance of Iberia?


Music played by Gypsies is not European and this cruelty towards animals does not belong in Europe. Should we officially call Spain Minor-Africa in the same way we call Turkey Minor-Asia?

[gold_fenix]

i hate bullfighting, i am happy when i see a bullfighter being wounded by a bull and i don't feel sadness for bullfighters , life was enought benevolent with this guy
http://www.cuatro.com/noticias/juan_Jose_Padilla-torero_MDSIMA20120605_0004_4.jpg
these persons only should receive death, if they pay death they would receive death
i dislike flamenco, simply I don't like
I am Spaniard

[Dombra]

i hate bullfighting, i am happy when i see a bullfighter being wounded by a bull and i don't feel sadness for bullfighters , life was enought benevolent with this guy
http://www.cuatro.com/noticias/juan_Jose_Padilla-torero_MDSIMA20120605_0004_4.jpg
these persons only should receive death, if they pay death they would receive death


Good :D



i dislike flamenco, simply I don't like
I am Spaniard

I like Flamenco even though its gypsy :)

[gold_fenix]

Good :D



I like Flamenco even though its gypsy :)

well it isn't something bad, i see bad rap from afroamerican for example for obvious reasons

[McCauley]

Iberians are not European.

[Damião de Góis]

I agree animal cruelty should be banished from Europe. We could start in the north:

http://www.campaign-whale.org/wp-content/uploads/Faroes-whale-slaughter.bmp

[Cristiano viejo]

Flamenco is not from Gypsy origin. Bad way for trolling, Mongol :ner-ner0:


I agree animal cruelty should be banished from Europe. We could start in the north:

http://www.campaign-whale.org/wp-content/uploads/Faroes-whale-slaughter.bmp
True. Mongol Europeans are famous for their slaughter of seals, dolphins and whales, even in England are famous their hunting of foxes (this last wekeend the Prince William was in Spain hunting wild boars... and the very cynical this week had to give a cconference against the hunting of elephants :lol:)

In Denmark, its traditional and annual dolphin slaughter:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2xF_aZnhSg

traditional and annual dolphin and whale slaughter in Feroe Islands:
http://cdn.rt.com/actualidad/public_images/8f4/8f4a66e7a33b72546e3077340a4d7552_article630bw.jpg

http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/view/119376-masacrar-tradicion-mil-delfines-ballenas-dinamarca

[Dombra]

Moors plz, whale hunting is for food

[Damião de Góis]

True. Mongol Europeans are famous for their slaughter of seals, dolphins and whales

One thing is to hunt whales. Unecessary sadistic rituals in which families of dolphins are left bleeding to death after being struck with rusty hooks in their blowholes are a whole different thing. But hey, it's their culture.

[Cristiano viejo]

Moors plz, whale hunting is for food
where do you think that the bulls ends, ignorant?

[Kastrioti1443]

A mix of gypsies, moors and some Italian. Like the people themselves.

[Cristiano viejo]

A mix of gypsies, moors and some Italian. Like the people themselves.
Are you saying that Spaniards look like Arbereshe?

[Kastrioti1443]

Are you saying that Spaniards look like Arbereshe?

Arbereshe are white people compared to moor spaniards like you.

[Cristiano viejo]

Arbereshe are white people compared to moor spaniards like you.

hehehehe

[Rouxinol]

I hate animal cruelty and those who practice it. A few days ago a zoo in Copenhagen "euthanized" a healthy young giraffe for no acceptable reason and after tearing it into pieces they gave it as a snack to the lions while people watched enthusiastically. Gross. Inhuman. May they burn in Hell forever and ever.

[Cristiano viejo]

I hate animal cruelty and those who practice it. A few days ago a zoo in Copenhagen "euthanized" a healthy young giraffe for no acceptable reason and after tearing it into pieces they gave it as a snack to the lions while people watched enthusiastically. Gross. Inhuman. May they burn in Hell forever and ever.
Mongol Europeans are experts in animal cruelty. They say that they are Europeans, and that their culture is European, so I don´t understand how they can not accept bullfighter as part of European culture :thumb down

[Cristiano viejo]

btw bullfighting is not only Spanish thing. French also enjoy it. In France bullfighting is protected by law... nor even in Span this happen


Since the 19th century, Spanish-style corridas have been increasingly popular in Southern France where they enjoy legal protection in areas where there is an uninterrupted tradition of such bull fights, particularly during holidays such as Whitsun or Easter. Among France's most important venues for bullfighting are the ancient Roman arenas of Nîmes and Arles, although there are bull rings across the South from the Mediterranean to the Atlantic coasts.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knMxjfIf4OQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1msVdOrtZc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=522UzMSXK9c

[Comte Arnau]

It's not as if the epitome of Europeanness is in Mongol Lapps herding reindeer either.

But I agree with the bullfighting part. Luckily we banned it here in Catalonia.

[Raikaswinþs]

Iberians are not European.

Unlike North Americans who clearly are.

http://s685.photobucket.com/user/nvn31415/media/Robocock.gif.html

[Raikaswinþs]

A mix of gypsies, moors and some Italian. Like the people themselves.


Spain's most famous traits are obviously Flamenco and bullfighting. Gitano music and animal cruelty



The Gypsies are the inventors of the most famous Spanish music, only the Moorish Al Andalus has had such fame


Is this animal cruelty the remnants of Muslim blood-thirst or the more ancient brutality and ignorance of Iberia?


Music played by Gypsies is not European and this cruelty towards animals does not belong in Europe. Should we officially call Spain Minor-Africa in the same way we call Turkey Minor-Asia?


Iberians are not European.

Good...goood... let the butthurt flow through you

[afrotaino]

Certainly, Flamenco Music isn't european in sense of word, has his roots in gypsy culture and arab culture too,
But also has iberian indigenous traits, all of that blended, it's the actual flamenco music 100% Iberian,

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco

Bullfighting it's 100% european, principally in southern european countries as spain, portugal and france

[Raikaswinþs]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qkam0hBdJlc/TzafzhkjYrI/AAAAAAAAAY0/CIDrXBIX-ec/s1600/VICENTE-AMIGO%5B1%5D.jpg


http://www.heraldo.es/uploads/imagenes/_padilla_454590de.jpg

[Cristiano viejo]

y
Unlike North Americans who clearly are.

http://s685.photobucket.com/user/nvn31415/media/Robocock.gif.html

And he specifically... with his 3% Amerindian according his dna test :rotfl:

[Raikaswinþs]

Certainly, Flamenco Music isn't european in sense of word, has his roots in gypsy culture and arab culture too,
But also has iberian indigenous traits, all of that blended, it's the actual flamenco music 100% Iberian


Don't get your facts from Wikipedia. If you are interested in knowing about flamenco and be able to express an articulate opinion about it try and find proper sources.


Flamenco and the rest of South West Iberian music have its origin in Iberian folklore. Nobody denies that gypsies left their imprint on it , and it also absorbed Arabic influences during the Al-Andalus period. The root of South West Spanish dances, singing and music predates the Roman period.

If you go to a tablao in Cadiz or Seville (or London) today, you are having a very similar experience to that of the Romans who travelled long ways and even paid fortunes to bring up to Rome this Puella Gaditanae ,the dancing girls from Cadiz, a city in Baetica (Modern South West Iberia)that it was ancient even then.

Here's a contemporary rendition of these ancient dances by a Flamenco dancer.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsoF4GHe5VI

The roots of Flamenco are more European than celtic bagpipes, who penetrated Europe from Anatolia

[Cristiano viejo]

Flamenco is not from Gypsy or Arab origin :picard1: Flamenco is a musical genre of XVIII century... hard to have Arab origins :rolleyes:

[B01AB20]

i hate bullfighting, i am happy when i see a bullfighter being wounded by a bull and i don't feel sadness for bullfighters , life was enought benevolent with this guy
http://www.cuatro.com/noticias/juan_Jose_Padilla-torero_MDSIMA20120605_0004_4.jpg
these persons only should receive death, if they pay death they would receive death
I am Spaniard

I understand you man, I feel the same about most of professional football players, I'm spaniard too. :)


Iberians are not European.

I wish.

'Ojalá' like we say in moro language.

[♥ Lily ♥]

I'm totally against animal cruelty. This sadistic and evil animal torturer (below) got what he deserved when the poor bull defended itself against being cruelly attacked.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCn-1YpLdn8

[Dunai]

Flamenco was adopted by the Gypsies to entertain the Spanish people, just like they did with Csárdás in Hungary, but it is still an Iberian, Spanish rooted music style, a beautiful one, I might add. Bullfighting is on the other hand a horrific event, that even if I could understand might be an important cultural constituent of Spanish culture, but in my opinion no educated person would enjoy seeing animal suffering.

[Cristiano viejo]

I'm totally against animal cruelty. This sadistic and evil animal torturer (below) got what he deserved when the poor bull defended itself against being cruelly attacked.

At least they exist. You in UK have experience in the exctintion of several species...


Flamenco was adopted by the Gypsies to entertain the Spanish people, just like they did with Csárdás in Hungary, but it is still an Iberian, Spanish rooted music style, a beautiful one, I might add.
Haleluya!

Not beautiful genre but at least yoi know its root.


Bullfighting is on the other hand a horrific event, that even if I could understand might be an important cultural constituent of Spanish culture, but in my opinion no educated person would enjoy seeing animal suffering.
Agree, in my opinion no educated person would enjoy seeing how pigs are raised in farms, or ducks, or chickens, etc :rolleyes:

[Sikeliot]

Flamenco music has Arabic and Gypsy influence so it cannot be called European.

Listening to some of this music, it is clearly not of European origin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viE93fErPk0

[Tietar]

flamenco is not very European, that is why it is just a spectacle of gypsies for tourists, it is not part of the culture of the people, in traditional festivals people listen and dance absolutely European music. is definitely not folk music, not even Spanish music, maybe it could be considered Andalusian music.

I guess it's like the Blues/jazz in USA.

[Sikeliot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsoF4GHe5VI

The roots of Flamenco are more European than celtic bagpipes, who penetrated Europe from Anatolia


Looks and sounds somewhat like Arab belly dancing.. sorry.

[Kamal900]

Looks and sounds somewhat like Arab belly dancing.. sorry.


Flamenco (Spanish pronunciation: [flaˈmeŋko]), in its strictest sense, is a professionalized art-form based on the various folkloric music traditions of Southern Spain in the autonomous communities of Andalusia, Extremadura and Murcia. In a wider sense, it refers to these musical traditions and more modern musical styles which have themselves been deeply influenced by and become blurred with the development of flamenco over the past two centuries. It includes cante (singing), toque (guitar playing), baile (dance), jaleo (vocalizations), palmas (handclapping) and pitos (finger snapping).[1]

The oldest record of flamenco dates to 1774 in the book Las Cartas Marruecas by José Cadalso.[2] The genre originated in the music and dance styles of Andalusia, of much older origin.[3] Flamenco has been influenced by and become associated with the Romani people in Spain; however, unlike Romani music in Eastern Europe, its origin and style is uniquely Andalusian.[4][5]

In recent years,[when?] flamenco has become popular all over the world and is taught in many non-Hispanic countries, especially the United States and Japan. In Japan, there are more flamenco academies than there are in Spain.[6][7] On November 16, 2010, UNESCO declared flamenco one of the Masterpieces of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity.[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco

The dance seem to have originated from Andalusia, and it is said to be influenced by Gypsies.

[Sikeliot]

The dance seem to have originated from Andalusia, and it is said to be influenced by Gypsies.

There is clearly also Arab and Berber in it.

[Kamal900]

There is clearly also Arab and Berber in it.

Most likely considering that Andalusia was the last region to be liberated by the Spaniards at the end of the 15th century AD.

[Sikeliot]

Most likely considering that Andalusia was the last region to be liberated by the Spaniards at the end of the 15th century AD.

I think these influences make Spain interesting. If I wanted bagpipes I'd go to Ireland.

[Cristiano viejo]

Most likely considering that Andalusia was the last region to be liberated by the Spaniards at the end of the 15th century AD.

Flamenco is from the century XVIII. Flamenco has nothing to do with Arabs. Its oriental influences come from Gypsies.
Nowadays we can say it is a Gypsy genre.

[Kamal900]

Flamenco is from the century XVIII. Flamenco has nothing to do with Arabs. Its oriental influences come from Gypsies.
Nowadays we can say it is a Gypsy genre.

Like I said, I don't know since I'm just basing on assumptions, that's all. Belly dancing also originated from Gypsies in Egypt as well.

[Tietar]

There is clearly also Arab and Berber in it.

its origin comes from baroque dances from south of spain and other Spanish or European music.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iwJL7yevwk

the influence gypsy / arab is later

According to the notary and politician Blas Infante, the term "flamenco" comes from the Andalusian expression fellah min gueir ard (فلاح من غير أرض), which means "peasant without land." According to him, many Moriscos were integrated into the Roma communities, with which they shared their ethnic minority character outside the dominant culture. Infante supposes that in that broth of culture had to emerge the flamenco cante, like manifestation of the pain that this people felt by the annihilation of its culture


https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco

[Cristiano viejo]

the influence gypsy / arab is later

According to the notary and politician Blas Infante, the term "flamenco" comes from the Andalusian expression fellah min gueir ard (فلاح من غير أرض), which means "peasant without land." According to him, many Moriscos were integrated into the Roma communities, with which they shared their ethnic minority character outside the dominant culture. Infante supposes that in that broth of culture had to emerge the flamenco cante, like manifestation of the pain that this people felt by the annihilation of its culture


https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamenco

Blas Infante had many imagination.

[Sebastianus Rex]

There is clearly also Arab and Berber in it.

Flamenco has absolutely no relation with Arabs and Berbers, it is a genre completely developed by Gypsies in Andalucia mixing the many influences they brought along the way their migration route until they reached Iberia in the 16th and 17th centuries with local instruments like the Spanish guitar.

[Cristiano viejo]

Flamenco has absolutely no relation with Arabs and Berbers, it is a genre completely developed by Gypsies in Andalucia mixing the many influences they brought along the way their migration route until they reached Iberia in the 16th and 17th centuries with local instruments like the Spanish guitar.
Its origin is not Gypsy but from low-class people of Baja Andalucía, area of Cádiz, Jerez etc
Their contact with Gypsies made that the last knew the genre, and then they appropiated.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Its origin is not Gypsy but from low-class people of Baja Andalucía, area of Cádiz, Jerez etc
Their contact with Gypsies made that the last knew the genre, and then they appropiated.

Flamenco as we know it today (with the sonority, chanting, dancing etc) was completely developed by gypsies, it's gypsy music. The original/root Flamenco may have sounded competely different to be called the same genre.

[DarknessWin]

Bullfighting have roots from Minoans,
used from them thousand years before so yes it is European

https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0b/23/d2/c5/minoan-bull-s-head-rhyton.jpg

http://potnia.theladyofthelabyrinth.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/DSCF01851.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQjwHrtCmqiL7cowADYPNN3t0ClfVfoN fqnEQClNmYkqh-6NSwL

[Cristiano viejo]

Flamenco as we know it today (with the sonority, chanting, dancing etc) was completely developed by gypsies, it's gypsy music. The original/root Flamenco may have sounded competely different to be called the same genre.

Current Flamenco is Gypsy or considered Gypsy, yes.