How Foreign Arabian Clans Rule Over Islamised Palestinians Of Israelite Origin

[Anglojew]

It is an established fact, now proved by genetics, that 90% of Palestinians are descended from Israelites (and ancient Edomites, Ammonites and Moabites who variously converted to Judaism and moved to Israel before the Roman invasion).

But what of the other 10%?

This 10% form a ruling-class of foreign, usually Arabian (but also Kurds and others), who imposed and continue to impose Islamisation and Arabisation over the indigenous Israelite population. These are the clans responsible for the forcible conversion of Jews during the Fatimid era, under the reign of Caliph al-Hakim who was crowned at the age of 11, and reigned from the years 996 to 1021 and other more recent arrivals.


In 1012, the al-Hakem Edict was issued, under which all Jews and Christians in Palestine were ordered to either convert to Islam or leave. This led to the majority of non-Hebrew origin Christians (i.e., foreign Christians) to leave Palestine, while over 90 per cent of Jews, Samaritans (also of Hebrew origin) and Hebrew-origin Christians converted and became Muslims. They would also become Musta'arabim (Arabized), acculturated into Arab language, custom and culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsvi_Misinai

So who are the foreign Muslim clans -that form the majority of the "Palestinian" leadership and rule over the native Israelite population of Palestinians- and where did each come from?

The Erekat/Uraiqat/Areikat clain is native to the Huwaitat region of the northwestern Arabian Peninsula.

The Husseini/Shawishes migrated to Jerusalem in the 12th century after Saladin drove out the Crusaders from the city and much of the Levant.

The Nashashibis of Jerusalem, who are of Turko-Kurdish origin.

The Abu Ghoshes, who came around the time of the Crusades, possibly from the Ottoman Empire.

The Barghoutis, who came from the Bani Zeid clan who arrived after the Crusades as well.

The Al Khalil family, from Mecca.

The Khazens, who are from Lebanon.

The Nusseibehs, the oldest Arab family in Jerusalem, who arrived in the 7th century

The Qudwa and Arafat families, who came from Aleppo, Syria to Gaza in the late 17th century.

The Ridwans, who came from the Ottoman empire to become leaders in Gaza.
And the Salibas, from Greece via Lebanon.

The Touqans, from either northern Arabia or northern Syria.

The Hammoudas from Transjordan.

The Zeitawis who came from Mecca to Morocco to Gaza. They are related to the Zaghabs.

The Ghassans, who came from Arabia to Lebanon.

The Tamimis, who come from the Tamim tribe of Arabia.

The Tarabins, who claim to originally come from the Bakom Valley east of Mecca.

The Jabaris, who descend from an inhabitant of the Jabar castle on the Euphrates.

The Matar family from Kuwait.

The Adwans, who came from the Hijaz.

It's time for the native Israelite Palestinians Bani Isra'il (Arabic:بني إسرائيل) to revolt against foreign domination and unite with their Jewish brothers within Greater Israel.

Links;
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/erekats-latest-lie-my-family-was-in.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Husayni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashashibi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghosh_clan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bani_Zeid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khalil_(family)
http://www.khazen.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1881&catid=141:khazen-blog&Itemid=213
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nusaybah_clan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qudwa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ridwan_dynasty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saliba_(family)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touqan
http://alharah2.net/alharah/showthread.php?t=41210
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Zeitawi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghassa
http://ejabat.google.com/ejabat/thread?tid=343b863ff9d92a06nids
http://www.kuwait-history.net/vb/showthread.php?t=10248
http://www.jor1jo.com/showthread.php?p=1247216

H/t Elderofziyon

[Äijä]

Love it. :D

Realistically, this might work for a small percentage but that would be a victory still.

[Anglojew]

Love it. :D

Realistically, this might work for a small percentage but that would be a victory still.

The only victory is when Jews and real Palestinians live in peace, harmony and prosperity together and recognise their shared Israelite heritage.

We need to find a solution for these foreign clans. I'm accepting options. Relocation to Jordan is one realistic option.

[Äijä]

The only victory is when Jews and real Palestinians live in peace, harmony and prosperity together and recognise their shared Israelite heritage.

We need to find a solution for these foreign clans. I'm accepting options. Relocation to Jordan is one realistic option.

You mean they have not mixed much? If they have, they will not brake of of the clan they have married easily.
You might get the Christians to break off but I think you would have to get the Muslims to convert, that would be a good solution.

[Shah-Jehan]

The Hoffmans, Golbergs, Goldenbaums etc from Deutchland, Russia etc.

[StonyArabia]

The Muytar are from Iraq and Kuwait, but the Matar is a Ghassanid clan that eventually embraced Islam in recent times.

[oblivion]

How do they know that 90% of palestinians are ancient israelites? What is the proof of this?

[Anglojew]

You mean they have not mixed much? If they have, they will not brake of of the clan they have married easily.
You might get the Christians to break off but I think you would have to get the Muslims to convert, that would be a good solution.

Most clans marry within the clan.

[StonyArabia]

The Ridwans are of Kurdish origins they are not Arabs, and this is not region but a native tribe to Jordan Huwaitat, so they are clan of the Huwaitat tribe. Well Nashashibis, and Abu Gosh are also of non-Arab origins. That said the Ghassans in Palestine all Christian with the exception of the Matar clan who are not Muytar.

[Äijä]

Most clans marry within the clan.

Different how it was here when we had clans, you would think some are allied trough marriage and have retainers from the others.

[Anglojew]

How do they know that 90% of palestinians are ancient israelites? What is the proof of this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPRgXAYTQlU


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPkLWlylISM

[Anglojew]

The Hoffmans, Golbergs, Goldenbaums etc from Deutchland, Russia etc.

Expelled Judeans reclaiming their land from these Arabian usurpers.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Tzvi Misnai is a lunatic, these people are Arabs and can be tied to well-documented Arab tribes for the most.
The Christians seem to have preserved more Israelite ancestry, though they still have a discernable amount of Arab admixture.

[StonyArabia]

Tzvi Misnai is a lunatic, these people are Arabs and can be tied to well-documented Arab tribes for the most.
The Christians seem to have preserved more Israelite ancestry, though they still have a discernable amount of Arab admixture.

Nope many Christians are heavily Ghassanid or Taghlib, not mention the Nabatean migration. The original Israelite were not much different from the Bedouins/Arabians, because they came from the Jordan Valley the region where Northern Arabic was developed in fact.

[Anglojew]

Tzvi Misnai is a lunatic, these people are Arabs and can be tied to well-documented Arab tribes for the most.
The Christians seem to have preserved more Israelite ancestry, though they still have a discernable amount of Arab admixture.

Not true. Palestinians plot with Jews;

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8sY9bx8acNM/SXY1_svkjeI/AAAAAAAAARc/c9zVKvXIY8c/s1600/Hammer_2000_Jew_Arab_Ychromosome.png

The Arabian ones plot seperately;

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/pc-jews.jpg

[Äijä]

Ok, post DNA, this is interesting.

The Christians alone would be a major power shift.

[Äijä]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMCmUz7Z-9E

Interesting stuff if true, seems some are ready to even convert.

[Óttar]

If they've been there since 990 CE, I think it's safe to say they belong there. There has to be a statute of limitations.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Nope many Christians are heavily Ghassanid or Taghlib, not mention the Nabatean migration. The original Israelite were not much different from the Bedouins/Arabians, because they came from the Jordan Valley the region where Northern Arabic was developed in fact.

I don't know which world you live in, but in this world clustering with Lebanese Christians on PCA plots with a clear node towards Cyprus while sharing the same branch as them on population trees ≠ heavily arabian ancestry. I mean come on... Seriously? I'm getting the impression you're deliberately ignoring ADMIX results here (Palestinian Christians are around ~25% Arabian on most 4-way runs, that's about it really).

Regarding the "original Israelites", genome-wide studies of ancient Israelite remains will be recquired to say anything about them... Though something tells me that putting the bet on "Bedouins/Arabians" is more akin to self-delusion than educated guessing.




Not true. Palestinians plot with Jews;

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_8sY9bx8acNM/SXY1_svkjeI/AAAAAAAAARc/c9zVKvXIY8c/s1600/Hammer_2000_Jew_Arab_Ychromosome.png

The Arabian ones plot seperately;

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/pc-jews.jpg

It isn't exactly hard to differentiate Palestinans from Western Jews on Eurasian PCA plots, you should know that by now.

[Anglojew]

The Ridwans are of Kurdish origins they are not Arabs, and this is not region but a native tribe to Jordan Huwaitat, so they are clan of the Huwaitat tribe. Well Nashashibis, and Abu Gosh are also of non-Arab origins. That said the Ghassans in Palestine all Christian with the exception of the Matar clan who are not Muytar.

Thanks, is there anymore information in Arabic?

[Anglojew]

I don't know which world you live in, but in this world clustering with Lebanese Christians on PCA plots with a clear node towards Cyprus while sharing the same branch as them on population trees ≠ heavily arabian ancestry. I mean come on... Seriously? I'm getting the impression you're deliberately ignoring ADMIX results here (Palestinian Christians are around ~25% Arabian on most 4-way runs, that's about it really).

Regarding the "original Israelites", genome-wide studies of ancient Israelite remains will be recquired to say anything about them... Though something tells me that putting the bet on "Bedouins/Arabians" is more akin to self-delusion than educated guessing.





It isn't exactly hard to differentiate Palestinans from Western Jews on Eurasian PCA plots, you should know that by now.

Palestinians are admixed with various populations including Arabians. European Jews are admixed with various populations in Europe. This isn't revolutionary after a 2,000 seperation but the important part is that they have about 50% common ancestry.

I doubt any ethnic group in the world is genetically identical to 2,000 years ago anyway. Especially a population from the crossroads of Europe/Asia/Africa and another which "wandered" Europe and elsewhere for 2,000 years.

[Anglojew]

Nope many Christians are heavily Ghassanid or Taghlib, not mention the Nabatean migration. The original Israelite were not much different from the Bedouins/Arabians, because they came from the Jordan Valley the region where Northern Arabic was developed in fact.

Obviously, 4,000-10,000 years ago or so, all "semitic" people belonged to the same group just as is the case with the the Indo-European peoples. Ultimately Jews and Arabs as well as Palestinians are all brothers.

[Anglojew]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMCmUz7Z-9E

Interesting stuff if true, seems some are ready to even convert.

Most don't need to convert as they're Jewish (according to Jewish law).

Also, Greater Israel will have Freedom of Religion;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?85415-My-Middle-East-Plan-(Part-3)-Palestinians-Are-Zionism-s-Greatest-Untappled-Resource

[DeaththeKid]

I've always thought a good solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is to get them to convert back to Judaism. Judaism and Israel would benefit from the population increase. Seriously Israel should pay Muslim Palestinians to convert to Judaism. One way the Muslims converted people was to give tax benefits to Muslims which made non-Muslims want to convert so bribing them back to Judaism is only fair. As two religions go Islam and Judaism are similar especially culturally so I don't think it would be that hard to convert, heck they are circumcised anyway and they eat the same food and now Muslim Palestinians would be able to drink alcohol :)

[Anglojew]

I've always thought a good solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is to get them to convert back to Judaism. Judaism and Israel would benefit from the population increase. Seriously Israel should pay Muslim Palestinians to convert to Judaism. One way the Muslims converted people was to give tax benefits to Muslims which made non-Muslims want to convert so bribing them back to Judaism is only fair. As two religions go Islam and Judaism are similar especially culturally so I don't think it would be that hard to convert, heck they are circumcised anyway and they eat the same food and now Muslim Palestinians would be able to drink alcohol :)

Good idea in theory but would just lead to bloodshed.

Also, the majority of Israeli Jews are secular anyway. Why should a Palestinian have to be a religious Jew but an Israeli Jew shouldn't? I think Greater Israel needs freedom of thought and religion.

[Äijä]

Palestinians are admixed with various populations including Arabians. European Jews are admixed with various populations in Europe. This isn't revolutionary after a 2,000 seperation but the important part is that they have about 50% common ancestry.

I doubt any ethnic group in the world is genetically identical to 2,000 years ago anyway. Especially a population from the crossroads of Europe/Asia/Africa and another which "wandered" Europe and elsewhere for 2,000 years.

Australian aborigines might have a long history in that but nothing much else happened either.

[Äijä]

Most don't need to convert as they're Jewish (according to Jewish law).

Also, Greater Israel will have Freedom of Religion;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?85415-My-Middle-East-Plan-(Part-3)-Palestinians-Are-Zionism-s-Greatest-Untappled-Resource

Makes it easy then, I would still recommend getting most in Judaism before trying to live in the same state.

[Äijä]

Good idea in theory but would just lead to bloodshed.

Also, the majority of Israeli Jews are secular anyway. Why should a Palestinian have to be a religious Jew but an Israeli Jew shouldn't? I think Greater Israel needs freedom of thought and religion.

For tradition and cohesion.

[Anglojew]

Australian aborigines might have a long history in that but nothing much else happened either.

True. I guess there's a few full-bloods left but not many.

[Äijä]

Like the winemaker clan, they should get back to making wine, hence back as Jews, I would buy for sure as support.

[Anglojew]

For tradition and cohesion.

In my opinion Judaism was just a way to preserve 1st or 2nd century Judean culture for the exile. Since we're not exiled anymore I think it can evolve again.

Obviously rebuilding the Temple is the next step. My solution would be to build it over current Mosque. Maybe in glass or something.

[Äijä]

In my opinion Judaism was just a way to preserve 1st or 2nd century Judean culture for the exile. Since we're not exiled anymore I think it can evolve again.

Obviously rebuilding the Temple is the next step. My solution would be to build it over current Mosque. Maybe in glass or something.

Good luck, would recommend even more getting them in the same books.
Looking how they have been treated by other Arabs many might actually find their roots in an spiritual way if Israeli people welcome them in open arms.

[Anglojew]

Good luck, would recommend even more getting them in the same books.
Looking how they have been treated by other Arabs many might actually find their roots in an spiritual way if Israeli people welcome them in open arms.

It will happen naturally over time. Once Palestinians are free to embrace their heritage and remove the shackles of Arab imperialism.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Palestinians are admixed with various populations including Arabians. European Jews are admixed with various populations in Europe. This isn't revolutionary after a 2,000 seperation but the important part is that they have about 50% common ancestry.

I doubt any ethnic group in the world is genetically identical to 2,000 years ago anyway. Especially a population from the crossroads of Europe/Asia/Africa and another which "wandered" Europe and elsewhere for 2,000 years.

Quantifying the level of pre-exilic admixture isn't currently possible, we'll need genome-wide studies of Judean samples to say anything about that.

While you are correct in asserting that no group is genetically identical to another one which lived 2000 years ago, nothing enables us to say which is actually closest to this original group.
That's why the 50% figure is a potential straw man.

Either way, expecting to live with Palestinians while they cannot even live with one another is a futile exercise, to say the least.

[Anglojew]

Quantifying the level of pre-exilic admixture isn't currently possible, we'll need genome-wide studies of Judean samples to say anything about that.

While you are correct in asserting that no group is genetically identical to another one which lived 2000 years ago, nothing enables us to say which is actually closest to this original group.
That's why the 50% figure is a potential straw man.

Either way, expecting to live with Palestinians while they cannot even live with one another is a futile exercise, to say the least.


They can't live with each other due to the fact they have a foreign elite ruling the indigenous population (and not intermixing with them) who don't have their interests at heart but are corrupt and self-serving.

You're wrong about the genetics:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Nebel-HG-00-IPArabs.pdf

[Smeagol]

Not true. Palestinians plot with Jews;

No, Europeans Jews don't plot with Palestinians. Palestinians actually plot closer to Egyptians for example then they do to Ashkenazis.

[Yehiel]

Many Palestinians disagree with the leadership and many dont.. on the Palestinian DNA thing they are deffinately more Semitic, but none have proof of Israelite lineage, same with Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, & Sephardim. There is no way to prove of the Israelite ancestry other then the Kohanim. We all have a Semite root though with Avraham Avinu..

[randomguy1235]

No, Europeans Jews don't plot with Palestinians. Palestinians actually plot closer to Egyptians for example then they do to Ashkenazis.

Because Ashkenazi have upwards of 50% Euro...

[YeshAtid]

No, Europeans Jews don't plot with Palestinians. Palestinians actually plot closer to Egyptians for example then they do to Ashkenazis.
I don't know why people want to claim Palis as "Arabised Jews", they're not at all. I've read studies that claim the supposed similarities between Jews and Palis is found across the ME, dating back to the immigration of Afro-Asiatics to the Levant. Do you think Palis have any Jewish ancestry?

[Smeagol]

Because Ashkenazi have upwards of 50% Euro...

Yeah, and Palestinians have a lot of Arab, and african. Ancient Israelites would have been predominantly (Arabid), and not native Levantine Mediterranids like the Phoenicians for example, but they lacked the african influence in Palestinians.

[Smeagol]

Do you think Palis have any Jewish ancestry?

Yeah, but they're not even close to the same people as 2,000 years ago probably.

[DanielJ1eH]

Yeah, and Palestinians have a lot of Arab, and african. Ancient Israelites would have been predominantly (Arabid), and not native Levantine Mediterranids like the Phoenicians for example, but they lacked the african influence in Palestinians.

Modern day Palestinians and Jews don't have much African.

[randomguy1235]

Yeah, and Palestinians have a lot of Arab, and african. Ancient Israelites would have been predominantly (Arabid), and not native Levantine Mediterranids like the Phoenicians for example, but they lacked the african influence in Palestinians.
Like I mentioned numerous times, your supposed SSA percentage for Palis is fabricated. I already linked you genetic spreadsheets that contradict your nonsensical assertions about Palis.

[Yehiel]

Yeah, and Palestinians have a lot of Arab, and african. Ancient Israelites would have been predominantly (Arabid), and not native Levantine Mediterranids like the Phoenicians for example, but they lacked the african influence in Palestinians.

Israelites would have looked close to the Babylonians, our origin is from now Iraq, we are not native to Canaan

http://i62.tinypic.com/htwkue.jpg

[Smeagol]

Like I mentioned numerous times, your supposed SSA percentage for Palis is fabricated. I already linked you genetic spreadsheets that contradict your nonsensical assertions about Palis.

Spreadsheets showed like 7% african.

[Smeagol]

Israelites would have looked close to the Babylonians, our origin is from now Iraq, we are not native to Canaan

No, they would have looked like Arabians probably.

[randomguy1235]

Spreadsheets showed like 7% african.

No they don't. Would you like me to link them to you again?

[YeshAtid]

Yeah, but they're not even close to the same people as 2,000 years ago probably.
But it's relatively minor and diluted with Arab and African hence they're not native anymore. I gander Lebanese Jews are the best representation of the original Israelites. Greek Islanders, Jews and Sicilians are probably the most representative of Levs before widespread Arab expansion?

[Smeagol]

But it's relatively minor and diluted with Arab and African hence they're not native anymore. I gander Lebanese Jews are the best representation of the original Israelites. Greek Islanders, Jews and Sicilians are probably the most representative of Levs before widespread Arab expansion?

No. Lebanese Jews don't represent the ancient Israelites. The Levant has had strong Arabid influences long before the Arab expansions.

[YeshAtid]

Israelites would have looked close to the Babylonians, our origin is from now Iraq, we are not native to Canaan


The supposed exodus from Iraq to Canaan is a myth. The Israelites were primarily Levantine.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

They can't live with each other due to the fact they have a foreign elite ruling the indigenous population (and not intermixing with them) who don't have their interests at heart but are corrupt and self-serving.

I'm getting the impression you've never actually got the opportunity to speak with Palestinians and Arabs IRL... Try it, I assure you it'll change your assessment of their backwardness' true causes.


You're wrong about the genetics:
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Nebel-HG-00-IPArabs.pdf


I'm confident you'll eventually find out that I am rarely "wrong about the genetics"... And that you won't change that by providing a 13 year-old study.

[Yehiel]

Ancient Jewish Mozaic..

http://i59.tinypic.com/30tgkep.jpg

[Smeagol]

No they don't. Would you like me to link them to you again?

how much African then?

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Israelites would have looked close to the Babylonians, our origin is from now Iraq, we are not native to Canaan
Babylonian origins may be partially true, but Hebrew and Canaanite culture and people cannot be separated from one another. Any number of research has confirmed that Israelites were simply Canaanites who developed their own identity and transitioned into a new form of society. This kind of thing happened numerous times in history in other parts of the world as well. As far as Palestinians are concerned a large number of them have far more Israelite/canaanite DNA than many modern Jews, this has also been proven by genetics. AngloJew is absolutely correct. Unfortunately many people wish to believe lies propagated by propaganda.

[YeshAtid]

No. Lebanese Jews don't represent the ancient Israelites. The Levant has had strong Arabid influences long before the Arab expansions.
Who does then?
I'm aware that the Levant was heavily semitic, but it was relatively minor when compared to the increase in influences post Arab expansions.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

I'm getting the impression you've never actually got the opportunity to speak with Palestinians and Arabs IRL... Try it, I assure you it'll change your assessment of their backwardness' true causes.



I'm confident you'll eventually find out that I am rarely "wrong about the genetics"... And that you won't change that by providing a 13 year-old study.

YOure wrong this time. Unless you are lumping Gazans together with the rest of the Palestinians I don't see how you have reached your conclusions.

[Yehiel]

Babylonian origins may be partially true, but Hebrew and Canaanite culture and people cannot be separated from one another. Any number of research has confirmed that Israelites were simply Canaanites who developed their own identity and transitioned into a new form of society. This kind of thing happened numerous times in history in other parts of the world as well. As far as Palestinians are concerned a large number of them have far more Israelite/canaanite DNA than many modern Jews, this has also been proven by genetics. AngloJew is absolutely correct. Unfortunately many people wish to believe lies propagated by propaganda.

So what is to say we did not come from Iraq and developed culture influenced by Canaanites? & show me these studies because there is no way they can prove Israelite gentics with that.. only Semite. the Kohanim are the only for sure Israelites today.

[Smeagol]

Who does then?
I'm aware that the Levant was heavily semitic, but it was relatively minor when compared to the increase in influences post Arab expansions.

Ancient Israelites were probably not so different looking from Arabians. They just lacked the african influences some modern Arabs have.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

So what is to say we did not come from Iraq and developed culture influenced by Canaanites? & show me these studies because there is no way they can prove Israelite gentics with that.. only Semite. the Kohanim are the only for sure Israelites today.

Funny you should say that. A large number of Kohanim genes are found in Palestinians.
About the Cohanim gene in Palestinians.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?10099-Elina
http://www.turkishnews.com/en/content/2011/09/29/new-research-says-that-jews-and-palestinians-have-close-genetic-links/

[randomguy1235]

I'm getting the impression you've never actually got the opportunity to speak with Palestinians and Arabs IRL... Try it, I assure you it'll change your assessment of their backwardness' true causes.



I'm confident you'll eventually find out that I am rarely "wrong about the genetics"... And that you won't change that by providing a 13 year-old study.

Please, refer me to a credible study that irrefutably proves our non-indigenous origins. I'm quite curious.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Because Ashkenazi have upwards of 50% Euro...

Wishful thinking.
There's no actual way of proving that Ashkenazim are "upwards of 50% Euro".
Moreover, "Euro" is a deceptive label which shouldn't even be used in population genetics in the first place.


Yeah, and Palestinians have a lot of Arab, and african. Ancient Israelites would have been predominantly (Arabid), and not native Levantine Mediterranids like the Phoenicians for example, but they lacked the african influence in Palestinians.

All this mumbo-jumbo about "Ancient Israelites" being "Arabid" and Phoenicians being "native Levantine Mediterranids" makes little to no sense either.
You do realise that Phoenicians and Israelites basically emerged from the same cohort during the Bronze Age Collapse, don't you?

Stating that Israelites were "Arabids/Arabians/etc" is tantamount to throwing everything we've learned about the emergence of Iron Age Levantine groups in the trash bin.

[Yehiel]

Funny you should say that. A large number of Kohanim genes are found in Palestinians.

Yeah also found most Arabs to.. are they Israelite? no, we share a common origin so of course we will have similaritys.

[YeshAtid]

Ancient Israelites were probably not so different looking from Arabians. They just lacked the african influences some modern Arabs have.
Oh ok, hence Oded Fehr is an exemplar model.

[randomguy1235]

Oh ok, hence Oded Fehr is an exemplar model.

Stop thumbing me down you annoying prick.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Yeah also found most Arabs to.. are they Israelite? no, we share a common origin so of course we will have similaritys.

Not to the same degree. These studies show that the degree of relatedness is far more than for "Arabs". Quite simply the fact that only Palestinians and Jews share that amount of Cohanim genes, as well as Inherited Deafness Syndrome being only present in Palestinians and Jews is the only proof you need.

[YeshAtid]

Funny you should say that. A large number of Kohanim genes are found in Palestinians.
About the Cohanim gene in Palestinians.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/member.php?10099-Elina
http://www.turkishnews.com/en/content/2011/09/29/new-research-says-that-jews-and-palestinians-have-close-genetic-links/
What's your point? That particular gene is not only outdated, but also found in other Arabs and indeed Sicilians and Hungarians. Therefore, aren't Huns and Sicilians just as Levantine as Palis?

[SardiniaAtlantis]

What's your point? That particular gene is not only outdated, but also found in other Arabs and indeed Sicilians and Hungarians. Therefore, aren't Huns and Sicilians just as Levantine as Palis?

It is not found in Hungarians or Sicilians to the same degree nor to any other people.

[YeshAtid]

Stop thumbing me down you annoying prick.
Stop disseminating bogus claims then. You Hamas poster boy.

[YeshAtid]

It is not found in Hungarians or Sicilians to the same degree nor to any other people.
Well they've mixed with other groups but they're still native:rolleyes:

[randomguy1235]

Stop disseminating bogus claims then. You Hamas poster boy.

I keep telling you every other day to stop incessantly thumbing down my posts. If you disagree with my posts, address them like a normal user and I'll make a rebuttal.

[Yehiel]

Not to the same degree. These studies show that the degree of relatedness is far more than for "Arabs". Quite simply the fact that only Palestinians and Jews share that amount of Cohanim genes, as well as Inherited Deafness Syndrome being only present in Palestinians and Jews is the only proof you need.

Ahh i see..

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

YOure wrong this time. Unless you are lumping Gazans together with the rest of the Palestinians I don't see how you have reached your conclusions.

Please, do prove me how wrong I really am: I am eagerly awaiting a rebuttal from your part.



Please, refer me to a credulous study that irrefutably proves our non-indigenous origins. I'm quite curious.

By "our", I presume you mean Muslim Palestinians.

Either way, you ask for it, you get it:

Source: Moorjani et al 2011


The signal of African mixture that we detect in Levantines
(Bedouins, Palestinians and Druze) – an average of 32 generations
or ,1000 years ago – is more recent than the signal in Europeans,
which might be related to the migrations between North Africa
and Middle East that have occurred over the last thousand years,
and the proximity of Levantine groups geographically to Africa.
Syria and Palestine were under Egyptian political control until the
16th century AD when they were conquered by the Ottoman
Empire. This is in concordance with our proposed dates. In
addition, the Arab slave trade is responsible for the movement of
large numbers of people from Africa across the Red Sea to Arabia
from 650 to 1900 AD and probably even prior to the Islamic times
[7,37]. We caution that our sampling of the Middle East is sparse,
and it will be of interest to study African ancestry in additional
groups from this region.

[...]

Algorithms such as PCA and STRUCTURE show
that various Jewish populations cluster with Druze [15], which
coupled with the similarity in mixture proportions, is consistent
with descent from a common ancestral population. Importantly,
the other Levantine populations (Bedouins and Palestinians) do
not share this similarity in the African mixture pattern with Jews
and Druze, making them distinct in their admixture history.

Source: Behar et al 2010


Focusing on the
Middle Eastern populations in the PC1–PC2 plot (Fig. 1b) reveals
more geographically refined groupings. Populations of the Caucasus,
flanked by Cypriots, form an almost uninterrupted rim that separates
the bulk of Europeans from Middle Eastern populations.
Bedouins, Jordanians, Palestinians and Saudi Arabians are located in close
proximity to each other, which is consistent with a common origin
in the Arabian Peninsula25, whereas the Egyptian, Moroccan,
Mozabite Berber, and Yemenite samples are located closer to sub-
Saharan populations (Fig. 1a and Supplementary Fig. 2a).

Source: Haber et al 2013


We show that religious affiliation had a strong
impact on the genomes of the Levantines. In particular,
conversion of the region’s populations to Islam appears to
have introduced major rearrangements in populations’
relations through admixture with culturally similar but
geographically remote populations, leading to genetic
similarities between remarkably distant populations like
Jordanians, Moroccans, and Yemenis. Conversely, other
populations, like Christians and Druze, became genetically
isolated in the new cultural environment. We reconstructed
the genetic structure of the Levantines and found that a
pre-Islamic expansion Levant was more genetically similar
to Europeans than to Middle Easterners.

There are many other studies which repeat the same thing, but I'm too lazy to fetch them all (even though they are all to be found in my database).

Welcome to factual reality.

[YeshAtid]

I keep telling you every other day to stop incessantly thumbing down my posts. If you disagree with my posts, address them like a normal user and I'll make a rebuttal.
I do, but you're averse to being wrong. You've already pissed off aa100, so please audit yourself.

[Yehiel]

Randomguy do you still live in Hevron?

[randomguy1235]

Please, do prove me how wrong I really am: I am eagerly awaiting a rebuttal from your part.




By "our", I presume you mean Muslim Palestinians.

Either way, you ask for it, you get it:

Source: Moorjani et al 2011



Source: Behar et al 2010



Source: Haber et al 2013



There are many other studies which repeat the same thing, but I'm too lazy to fetch them all (even though they are all to be found in my database).

Welcome to factual reality.

You just referenced the Moojrani study yet claimed that AngloJew's study is outdated? How ironic. Welcome to the factual reality that your "study" is garbage. I can reference you some genetic spreadsheets that invariably disprove your deluded reasoning.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

A large number of Kohanim genes are found in Palestinians.

Kohanim test positive to SNP ZS227, you'd be well-obliged to show me a Palestinian who tested positive to this SNP.
The closest they get to Kohanim is when they end up YSC234+, which is upstream ZS227 and the closest SNP to it on the tree.
I know of only two Palestinian YSC234 cases, all of them Christians.

Muslim Palestinians usually harbour typical arab markers.

[randomguy1235]

Randomguy do you still live in Hevron?

No, I live in the U.S. and most of my family lives in Jordan.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

You just referenced the Moojrani study yet claimed that AngloJew's study is outdated? How ironic. Welcome to the factual reality that your "study" is garbage. I can reference you some genetic spreadsheets that invariably disprove your deluded reasoning.

A 3 year-old study using legitimate and still up-to-date methods is anything but "outdated".
A 13 year-old study is bound to be extremely rusty, in comparison... So that's a weak argument coming from you.

Please do show me these spreadsheets which "invariably disprove my deluded reasoning", I'm eagerly waiting for them.

[Yehiel]

No, I live in the U.S. and most of my family lives in Jordan.

Ahh, do you think if Pale state is formed capital should be Ramallah or Jerusalem?

[randomguy1235]

Ahh, do you think if Pale state is formed capital should be Ramallah or Jerusalem?

Jerusalem would be preferable.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Please, do prove me how wrong I really am: I am eagerly awaiting a rebuttal from your part.




By "our", I presume you mean Muslim Palestinians.

Either way, you ask for it, you get it:

Source: Moorjani et al 2011



Source: Behar et al 2010



Source: Haber et al 2013



There are many other studies which repeat the same thing, but I'm too lazy to fetch them all (even though they are all to be found in my database).

Welcome to factual reality.

I do believe I already have if you've read anything I posted. But in case you missed it here are a few Medical studies on Inherited Deafness Syndrome:
http://riverscrap.typepad.com/home/2009/08/oy-vey-90-of-palestinians-have-jewish-heritage.html
http://www.health.gov.il/Subjects/Genetics/Documents/book_non-Jews.pdf
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987250/
http://www.kbalab.com/manuscripts/
http://books.google.com/books?id=6o_xqH5Ly1cC&pg=PA172&lpg=PA172&dq=inherited+deafness+syndrome+palestinians&source=bl&ots=QTwCIN3DwH&sig=QUKbh1nbRzhHdbdb_fI36VgGT4M&hl=it&sa=X&ei=6er7UpysPOjF2AXLuYCQCw&ved=0CGkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=inherited%20deafness%20syndrome%20palestinians&f=false

[Anglojew]

Please, refer me to a credible study that irrefutably proves our non-indigenous origins. I'm quite curious.

Both Jews and Palestinians have some foreign admixture. But I'm not sure why this makes either population illegitimate. The Welsh aren't identical to ancient Celts but that doesn't mean they aren't today's Celts.

[randomguy1235]

A 3 year-old study using legitimate and still up-to-date methods is anything but "outdated".
A 13 year-old study is bound to be extremely rusty, in comparison... So that's a weak argument coming from you.

Please do show me these spreadsheets which "invariably disprove my deluded reasoning", I'm eagerly waiting for them.

The sheets show the genetic relatedness of Palis with neighboring Levantine populations

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdDdNUDhCZjFkQ2d6TFNmYzJ0VGZud Hc#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdGNiUm1uTFlodmJfYXlIdkhxemtSM Hc#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdDFJc1ZFTnNwdHJROW44Y2xNVjg4c nc#gid=0

[Yehiel]

Jerusalem would be preferable.

Do you think thats really going to happen?

[Anglojew]

We always get tied down the same point which needs to be overcome.

Someone half-Israelite and half-Euro (Jews) isn't more of a legitimate Israelite than someone half-Israelite and half-Arabian (Palestinians).

Both are just the products of their histories. Both are still able to share their Israelite heritage together.

[randomguy1235]

Do you think thats really going to happen?

Not any time soon unfortunately.

[Yehiel]

We always get tied down the same point which needs to be overcome.

Someone half-Israelite and half-Euro isn't more of a legitimate Israelite than someone half-Israelite and half-Arabian.

Both are just the products of their histories. Both are still able to share their Israelite heritage together.

Palestinians i think are confused.. However if they started identify as Israelites instead of Arabs they would be nothing, the reason they have so much support is because they identify as Arabs.. They would need to be mass conversion, you cant identify Israelite and be muslim anyway, then you are not culturally Israelite.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I do believe I already have if you've read anything I posted. But in case you missed it here are a few Medical studies on Inherited Deafness Syndrome:
http://riverscrap.typepad.com/home/2009/08/oy-vey-90-of-palestinians-have-jewish-heritage.html
http://www.health.gov.il/Subjects/Genetics/Documents/book_non-Jews.pdf
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/05/000509003653.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987250/
http://www.kbalab.com/manuscripts/
http://books.google.com/books?id=6o_xqH5Ly1cC&pg=PA172&lpg=PA172&dq=inherited+deafness+syndrome+palestinians&source=bl&ots=QTwCIN3DwH&sig=QUKbh1nbRzhHdbdb_fI36VgGT4M&hl=it&sa=X&ei=6er7UpysPOjF2AXLuYCQCw&ved=0CGkQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=inherited%20deafness%20syndrome%20palestinians&f=false

Inherited Deafness Syndrome is common in Mediterranean populations in general, it isn't restricted to Jews and Palestinians in particular.

I am not denying the fact that these populations share specific alleles, what I am saying is that they aren't in any way closely related and that Palestinians have a very large amount of arab ancestry they've acquired rather recently.

That's it really.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

The sheets show the genetic relatedness of Palis with neighboring Levantine populations

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdDdNUDhCZjFkQ2d6TFNmYzJ0VGZud Hc#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdGNiUm1uTFlodmJfYXlIdkhxemtSM Hc#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdDFJc1ZFTnNwdHJROW44Y2xNVjg4c nc#gid=0

I fail to see how any of this disproves what I've previously stated.
Palestinians seem to be extremely similar to Bedouins, save for inflated "Caucasus" frequencies:
They both have around the same amount of SSA, are about 50% SW Asian, ~6-7% East African.

Druze, in comparison, have much lower SSA, SW Asian and East African and an average of +~12% "Caucasus".

But these components prove nothing by themselves, they are just composites of even older components... That is to say, they're based on modern-day populations.

So yeah, welcome to factual reality.

[randomguy1235]

I fail to see how any of this disproves what I've previously stated.
Palestinians seem to be extremely similar to Bedouins, save for inflated "Caucasus" frequencies:
They both have around the same amount of SSA, are about 50% SW Asian, ~6-7% East African.

Druze, in comparison, have much lower SSA, SW Asian and East African and an average of +~12% "Caucasus".

But these components prove nothing by themselves, they are just composites of even older components... That is to say, they're based on modern-day populations.

So yeah, welcome to factual reality.

I find it difficult to believe that you actually looked at the links. Stop being a deluded zionophile.

[StonyArabia]

Druze have Iranic ancestry, at least that's how their ethnogenesis began. Not mention the person who founded their religion was of Persian origin.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I find it difficult to believe that you actually looked at the links. Stop being a deluded zionophile.

The problem is that you're trying to believe whereas you should let go of the beliefs and start accepting facts.
Being a "Zionophile" is my choice to make, I have no orders to take from arab propagandists such as you.

Come back when you will've acquired the ability to review evidence in an unbiased manner.


Druze have Iranic ancestry, at least that's how their ethnogenesis began. Not mention the person who founded their religion was of Persian origin.

Some of them have Kurdish origins, that's about all the Iranic ancestry you'll be able to get out of them.
No IBD segments with Iranian speakers, next to no uniparental lineages in common, nada.

[Anglojew]

I'm getting the impression you've never actually got the opportunity to speak with Palestinians and Arabs IRL... Try it, I assure you it'll change your assessment of their backwardness' true causes.



I'm confident you'll eventually find out that I am rarely "wrong about the genetics"... And that you won't change that by providing a 13 year-old study.

You're the one the Palestinians here disagree with.

[Anglojew]

What's your point? That particular gene is not only outdated, but also found in other Arabs and indeed Sicilians and Hungarians. Therefore, aren't Huns and Sicilians just as Levantine as Palis?

Sicilians probably are.

Hungarians may have got it from either Judean admixture during the Khazar period or Jewish admixture later.

[Anglojew]

Jerusalem would be preferable.

Jerusalem will be the capital of Greater Israel and later....the world...

http://timetoeatthedogs.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/h-jerusalem-flower1.jpg

[Anglojew]

Palestinians i think are confused.. However if they started identify as Israelites instead of Arabs they would be nothing, the reason they have so much support is because they identify as Arabs.. They would need to be mass conversion, you cant identify Israelite and be muslim anyway, then you are not culturally Israelite.

Actually that's not entirely true.


According to a translation by the Islamic Law scholar Khaleel Mohammed, Ibn Kathir (1301–1373) interpreted Qur'an 5:20–21 using the following terms: "'That which God has written for you' i.e. That which God has promised to you by the words of your father Israel that it is the inheritance of those among you who believe."


Abdul Hadi Palazzi (Arabic: شيخ عبد الهادي بالاتسي‎), is the secretary general of the Italian Muslim Assembly, and the Khalifah for Europe of the Qadiri Sufi Order believes;


"The Qur'an cannot deal with the State of Israel as we know it today, since that State came into existing in 1948 only, i.e. many centuries after the Qur'an itself was revealed. However, the Qur'an specify that the Land of Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, that God Himself gave that Land to them as heritage and ordered them to live therein. It also announces that - before the end of the time - the Jewish people will come from many different countries to retake possession of that heritage of theirs. Whoever denies this actually denies the Qur'an itself. If he is not a scholar, and in good faith believes what other people say about this issue, he is an ignorant Muslim. If, on the contrary, he is informed about what the Qur'an and openly opposes it, he cease to be a Muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_supporters_of_Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Hadi_Palazzi

[randomguy1235]

Jerusalem will be the capital of Greater Israel and later....the world...

http://timetoeatthedogs.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/h-jerusalem-flower1.jpg

nah...:p

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

You're the one the Palestinians here disagree with.

When was the last time you saw randomguy1235 saying he wants to convert to Judaism?
Get real, the huge majority of Palestinians acknowledge the fact that they are arabs, starting with the PA's president Mahmoud Abbas:

http://www.alarab.net/Article/549789

There's no way you can ignore this, the Palestinian "cause" is a pan-arab one before being a pan-islamic one.

[randomguy1235]

When was the last time you saw randomguy1235 saying he wants to convert to Judaism?
Get real, the huge majority of Palestinians acknowledge the fact that they are arabs, starting with the PA's president Mahmoud Abbas:

http://www.alarab.net/Article/549789

There's no way you can ignore this, the Palestinian "cause" is a pan-arab one before being a pan-islamic one.

Have you ever heard of the process called Arabization? I'm doubtful. It's the reason why numerous MENA ethnic groups with little genetic affinity to the Arabian peninsula consider themselves "Arab."

[Wadaad]

When was the last time you saw randomguy1235 saying he wants to convert to Judaism?
Get real, the huge majority of Palestinians acknowledge the fact that they are arabs, starting with the PA's president Mahmoud Abbas:

http://www.alarab.net/Article/549789

There's no way you can ignore this, the Palestinian "cause" is a pan-arab one before being a pan-islamic one.

Infact it was Palestinian and other Levantine Christians who emphasized and promoted the pan-Arabist ideology in order to supercede any pan-Islamic one that would relegate them to dhimmitude.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Have you ever heard of the process called Arabization? I'm doubtful. It's the reason why numerous MENA ethnic groups with little genetic affinity to the Arabian peninsula consider themselves "Arab."

So you're expecting us to pretend that Palestinians are one of those "numerous MENA ethnic groups with little genetic affinity to the Arabian peninsula"?
... Is that what you're trying to say?
Well sorry, but I don't buy it.
I've seen enough genetic links between Muslim Palestinians and Peninsular Arabs to know that this simply isn't true.

Palestinians retain strong links to Arabian populations and cluster with Bedouins, Jordanians and even Saudis to some extent on PCA plots.
There is documented SSA admixture and a fair amount of IBD sharing between these populations.

That's not what you'd expect to see if you were like, say, Arabized North Africans or Kurds.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Infact it was Palestinian and other Levantine Christians who emphasized and promoted the pan-Arabist ideology in order to supercede any pan-Islamic one that would relegate them to dhimmitude.

Absolutely, in fact many of the earliest arab panists were Christians, such as Michel 3aflaq, George 7abash and An6oun Sa3adeh (whose SSNP's panist worldview was later taken up by pan-arab nationalists).
Pretty much the same happened in Egypt, where Copts supported Nasser and even picked up on the Jewish community to make themselves look more arab than the arabs.

[randomguy1235]

So you're expecting us to pretend that Palestinians are one of those "numerous MENA ethnic groups with little genetic affinity to the Arabian peninsula"?
... Is that what you're trying to say?
Well sorry, but I don't buy it.
I've seen enough genetic links between Muslim Palestinians and Peninsular Arabs to know that this simply isn't true.

Palestinians retain strong links to Arabian populations and cluster with Bedouins, Jordanians and even Saudis to some extent on PCA plots.
There is documented SSA admixture and a fair amount of IBD sharing between these populations.

That's not what you'd expect to see if you were like, say, Arabized North Africans or Kurds.

That's not an expectation. That's an irrefutable fact. Of course they're related to Jordanians when half of Jordan is comprised of Palestinians :picard1:. I already disproved your outdated study by linking you numerous Palestinian samples. Sorry buddy, but you zionophile assertions are utter bull.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

That's not an expectation. That's an irrefutable fact. Of course they're related to Jordanians when half of Jordan is comprised of Palestinians :picard1:. I already disproved your outdated study by linking you numerous Palestinian samples. Sorry buddy, but you zionophile assertions are utter bull.

In this perfect world of yours, your opinions are ["irrefutable"] facts while actual facts are conspiracies.

The Jordanians and the Bedouins who were tested do not hail from the country's Palestinian minority, but from the country's Bedouin tribes... Which is why you overlap with Bedouins and Saudis:

http://pichoster.net/images/2014/02/12/europe.png

Palestinians also cline towards Yemenite Jews, which are very likely to be a relic of pre-Islamic times in Arabia: In other words, it's very clear Palestinians have a strong Arab component.

[randomguy1235]

:bored:
Refer to the genetic sheets on the previous page.

[Anglojew]

Druze have Iranic ancestry, at least that's how their ethnogenesis began. Not mention the person who founded their religion was of Persian origin.

Actually, although they do have some Persian ancestry, Druze are also of partial-Israelite ancestry as Israeli-Druze Politician Ayoub Kara makes clear;


“All our prophets are Jewish ones – Moses, Judah, Jethro, and Zevulun, the son of Jacob.” In fact, he says, the Druze are likely one of the lost tribes of the Jewish people – probably Zevulun, considering his special status among them.

According to Kara, there are no vestigial Jewish practices among the Druze – as there are, surprisingly, among some Arabs in the Land of Israel – but one symbol has stuck with the Druze throughout the centuries. “Only among Druze do you find a red Star of David, in homes, cemeteries, and places of worship,” Kara says. “This is one sign that has been open and visible for centuries, unlike most of the other ones, yet few have noticed.”

If the Druze dropped most, if not all, Jewish ritual, it's because they feared the sword of Islam. “Unlike Jews and Christians, who have the status of “people of the Book” among Muslims, and are therefore are given some basic rights, Druze are simply heretics to Islam, and such heretics must be either converted or eliminated,” Kara explains. In fact, Druze were massacred by Muslims on several occasions, and “it would have been much worse if they had identified themselves as Jews.” As a result, the Druze initially converted to Christianity and subsequently took on a Muslim identity – but through it all, they never forgot their Jewish identity.

Those roots explain, at least in part, the fierce loyalty the Druze in Israel have to the state. “However, Druze here are too fearful to loudly proclaim their sympathies with Israel, or to convert to Judaism, although some do – because of the fear of what might happen to their brethren in Syria and Lebanon,” Kara said. Druze soldiers have given their lives for Israel and have risen high in IDF ranks. However, Druze tradition is to be loyal to whatever country rules the area they live in, so that Druze in Syria are loyal to Syria.

And then there is the genetic study, which shows that Druze display genetic attributes quite similar to those of Jews (see the study for the technical details). “A major genetic test from last year, the first extensive test done of the Druze, proves my contention clearly,”


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/140251

The study (in Hebrew);
http://www.hayadan.org.il/a-yidishe-genetica-0111101/

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Refer to the genetic sheets on the previous page.

I already referred to them, and you thought it was appropriate to tell us about your beliefs back then.

As I said, come back when you will've acquired the ability to review data in an unbiased way.

[StonyArabia]

The question is if Palestinians are Bedouins why are they not aware of their tribes. For example in Iraq, Arabia, and yes Jordan the Bedouins know what tribe and even clans and sub-clans they belong to. Palestinians also don't look similar to Iraqis for example they are taller and slightly lighter on average.

[randomguy1235]

I already referred to them, and you thought it was appropriate to tell us about your beliefs back then.

As I said, come back when you will've acquired the ability to review data in an unbiased way.

And you think you're impartial? That's laughable. The Palestinian posters here all, phenotypically, disprove your assertion that we're somehow transplanted peninsular Arabs.

[StonyArabia]

Even if Palestinians are of Bedouin origins, they would not be accepted as such they have no tribes.

[Yehiel]

With out the arabs the Palestinians wouldn't even have a movement going, the Arabs can care aless about them, the only thing keeping them from abandoning them is the fact that they identify as Arab Muslims.

How do people not see this?

[YeshAtid]

And you think you're impartial? That's laughable. The Palestinian posters here all, phenotypically, disprove your assertion that we're somehow transplanted peninsular Arabs.
There are only 2 Palestinians on here, hence it's not particularly representative of the general Palestinian phenotype.

[randomguy1235]

There are only 2 Palestinians on here, hence it's not particularly representative of the general Palestinians phenotype.

Facial morphs of Levantine populations are available. I'm very representative of Pali phenotypes.

[StonyArabia]

There are only 2 Palestinians on here, hence it's not particularly representative of the general Palestinians phenotype.

Palestinians range in looks, but phenotype does not match genotype all the time.

[Wadaad]

With out the arabs the Palestinians wouldn't even have a movement going, the Arabs can care aless about them, the only thing keeping them from abandoning them is the fact that they identify as Arab Muslims.

How do people not see this?

I think you exposed your jewish brother's (Anglojew) hopes and desires by promoting this idea of Israelite Palestinians.

[YeshAtid]

. I'm very representative of Pali phenotypes.
Not really. The general Palestinian look is heavily semitic with a noticeable SSA influence.

[randomguy1235]

Not really. The general Palestinian look is heavily semitic with a noticeable SSA influence.

Stop making up bullshit barberis.

[Anglojew]

In this perfect world of yours, your opinions are ["irrefutable"] facts while actual facts are conspiracies.

The Jordanians and the Bedouins who were tested do not hail from the country's Palestinian minority, but from the country's Bedouin tribes... Which is why you cluster both with Bedouins and Saudis:

http://pichoster.net/images/2014/02/12/europe.png

Palestinians also cline towards Yemenite Jews, which are very likely to be a relic of pre-Islamic times in Arabia: In other words, it's very clear Palestinians have a strong Arab component.


Bedouin Sheikh: My People are of Jewish Descent An Israeli Bedouin Sheikh tells INN TV that he is of Jewish descent. Historian claims most Bedouin, Arabs in Israel are Jewish.


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133875

[YeshAtid]

Stop making up bullshit barberis.
Counter my supposedly bullshit point then. Refrain from using profanity please, it weakens the credibility of your argument severely. Jews look more Levantine than Palestinians, that's indisputable.

[StonyArabia]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133875


The Makharama clan is indeed Jewish on their paternal line but Arabian on their maternal line. They claim to be Jewish who were then Islamized. Also yes many Bedouin tribes were Jewish or heretical Christian up to the 14th century.

[Yehiel]

I think you exposed your jewish brother's (Anglojew) hopes and desires by promoting this idea of Israelite Palestinians.

It would be cool if they all decided to convert and revisit their Israelite heritage but that wont be happening anytime soon i dont think. They would lose all support from the Arabs & they are the majority of countries that openly support them.

[Anglojew]

When was the last time you saw randomguy1235 saying he wants to convert to Judaism?
Get real, the huge majority of Palestinians acknowledge the fact that they are arabs, starting with the PA's president Mahmoud Abbas:

http://www.alarab.net/Article/549789

There's no way you can ignore this, the Palestinian "cause" is a pan-arab one before being a pan-islamic one.

I don't want him to convert. He's free to be a Muslim if he so wishes (although seperately I'd like to see major reforms in Islam).

They aren't Arabs. Most spoke Aramaic until 100 or 200 years ago. They are ruled by an Arab elite that's all.

The Palestinian cause is the opposite of Pan-Arabism. It, by it's very nationalistic nature, divides the Caliphate.

[Yehiel]

Counter my supposedly bullshit point then. Refrain from using profanity please, it weakens the credibility of your argument severely. Jews look more Levantine than Palestinians, that's indisputable.

I agree, excluding most Ashkenazi Jews of course. Gazans look almost Egyptian and it would be hard to tell a part a Judah & Shomron Pali from a Jordanian or northern Saudi

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

And you think you're impartial? That's laughable. The Palestinian posters here all, phenotypically, disprove your assertion that we're somehow transplanted peninsular Arabs.

They can disagree as much as they want, the fact remains that you overlap with Bedouins, Saudis and Jordanians, cline towards Yemenite Jews (see the PCA plot), have a high level of IBD sharing with the aforementionned populations and share many uniparental lineages in common (most muslim Palestinians belong to the L222.2 and L65 clades of J1, typical arab-specific SNPs):

http://pichoster.net/images/2014/02/13/Eurasia%20PCA.png

You have yet to disprove any of what I've said (and it's not exactly an easy task, to say the least).

[Anglojew]

The Makharama clan is indeed Jewish on their paternal line but Arabian on their maternal line. They claim to be Jewish who were then Islamized. Also yes many Bedouin tribes were Jewish or heretical Christian up to the 14th century.

Thanks for the information.

[randomguy1235]

They can disagree as much as they want, the fact remains that you overlap with Bedouins, Saudis and Jordanians, cline towards Yemenite Jews (see the PCA plot), have a high level of IBD sharing with the aforementionned populations and share many uniparental lineages in common (most muslim Palestinians belong to the L222.2 and L65 clades of J1, typical arab-specific SNPs):



You have yet to disprove any of what I've said (and it's not exactly an easy task, to say the least).
I already have. Refer to the genetic spreadsheet samples on the previous pages.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133875

He can claim what he want, Bedouins are even more Arab than most Palestinians and cline even more strongly towards Yemenite Jews.
They belong to a close-knit tribal network stretching around the Red Sea, not exactly the way I picture Crypto-Jews.

[Anglojew]

Infact it was Palestinian and other Levantine Christians who emphasized and promoted the pan-Arabist ideology in order to supercede any pan-Islamic one that would relegate them to dhimmitude.

That's true. These are all complicated issues. Does any people really just have one identity anyway?

[YeshAtid]

I agree, excluding most Ashkenazi Jews of course. Gazans look almost Egyptian and it would be hard to tell a part a Judah & Shomron Pali from a Jordanian or northern Saudi
Most Palestinians are Bedouins anyway with a minor strain of Bantu so it's not particularly surprising.

[Illancha]

How many times has this exact same discussion been had? People making retarded claims left, right and centre.

How terribly boring!

[Anglojew]

He can claim what he want, Bedouins are even more Arab than most Palestinians and cline even more strongly towards Yemenite Jews.
They belong to a close-knit network stretching around the Red Sea, not exactly the way I picture Crypto-Jews.

Some clans have a lot of preserved Judean cultural practices.


Bedouin Customs and Nomadic Israel’s Practices

In the Sinai desert are to be found Bedouin tribes. Their nomadic practices mirror many of those practised by the Israelites when they wandered through the wilderness. Apparently Bedouin tribes still observe the following practices:
1.Slaughtering a goat for the spring sacrifice and smearing its blood as protection
2.Eating unleavened bread baked quickly on open coals
3.Celebrating an autumn festival that includes living in the desert in booths made of palm trees

It was and continues to be common for nomadic Sinai tribes to seek pasturaga for their flocks in Egypt during years of drought. Ze’ev Meshel notes an ancient Egyptian document that records the permission given to nomads from Edom to enter the Nile Delta area during a drought year around 1200 BCE. In return for being allowed to encamp at the edge of irrigation channels and elementary food provisions the nomads would provide cheap manpower.

Meshel speaks of his personal acquaintance with Bedouins and recalls their resourcefulness in finding water in the desert, observing that some are even able to strike rocks to get water, instead of digging, as Moses himself did on one famous occasion (Num 20:11).

Exodus 16 tells how God provided quails for the people to eat in the desert. Meshel notes that in October thousands of quails reach the beaches of northern Sinai after crossing the Mediterranean Sea. He provides a photo the nets used by Bedouins to capture some of the quail for food.

The Bedouin make an annual pilgrimage (Zu’ara) to the wilderness tombs of their tribal sheikhs and enjoy festivities there. Meshel suggests that the Israelites may have been alluding to a known nomadic custom like this when God, through Moses, told Pharaoh, “Let my people go, that they may hold a feast to me in the wilderness” (Ex 5:1).

Meshel witnessed a Bedouin spring ritual (Rabi’ah) at ‘Ain Fortaga in Sinai, at the time when herds are taken into the mountains for seasonal pasturage. The Bedouin sacrificed a goat and then smeared its blood on camels’ necks and their children’s foreheads, expressing their desire for health, abundance and good fortune. He compares this with the Passover sacrifice which also involved smearing blood (Ex 12:22-23). The contexts and meanings of these sacrifices are very different, but the Bedouin practice does add weight to the plausibility of the biblical account.

The Bedouin call unleavened bread libeh (cf. Jewish matzah) and bake this on the burning coals of an open fire two to three times a day, using a quick mixture of flour, water, a pinch of salt and no leavening.

It is also common for Bedouin to construct temporary booths made from date palms. Posts are made from the trunks and walls and roofs from the fronds. Date fibre is used to make ropes to fasten the parts of the booth. The Bedouin live in such booths for but a few weeks, at the end of summer and during early autumn near oases. During autumn nights the Bedouin Date Festival celebrates, in addition to the harvest of dates, the in-gathering of the previously scattered tribes at this location.

Source: Ze’ev Meshel, “Wilderness Wanderings” in Biblical Archaelogy Review 34/4 (July/August 2008) 32-39

[randomguy1235]

Most Palestinians are Bedouins anyway with a minor strain of Bantu so it's not particularly surprising.

Unless you have the evidence to back it up, why make up such nonsensical compositions?

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I already have. Refer to the genetic spreadsheet samples on the previous pages.

Are you blind?
I've already reviewed the spreadsheets you directed me too, and they actually prove my point.
But you chose to ignore that, because it doesn't agree with the way you wish things were.

[Yehiel]

I think the reason the Palis plot closer to they Saudis etc is because of Arab admixture, the same reason Jews plot in the middle of Levantines and Euros (sometimes closer to Euros) is because of the Euro admixture. To say that Palis are completely Israelite, and did not mix at all with Arabs after converting to Islam is crazy. They are almost just as mixed with Arabs as Jews are with Euros

[YeshAtid]

Unless you have the evidence to back it up, why make up such nonsensical compositions?
http://www.csmonitor.com/var/archive/storage/images/media/images/1115-israel-palestinian-freedom-riders/11011254-1-eng-US/1115-israel-palestinian-freedom-riders_full_600.jpg

[Yehiel]

Are you blind?
I've already reviewed the spreadsheets you directed me too, and they actually prove my point.
But you chose to ignore that, because it doesn't agree with the way you wish things were.

One of the Palis on the sheet i saw was 11% SSA lol

[randomguy1235]

Are you blind?
I've already reviewed the spreadsheets you directed me too, and they actually prove my point.
But you chose to ignore that, because it doesn't agree with the way you wish things were.

Another deluded zionophile harping on about the same point. Your one "study" doesn't prove that Palis are non-indigenous, and it's been debunked by sample compositions. Apparently, you're the blind one if you can't tell how the sheets prove the genetic affinity of Palis with other Levantine groups.

[StonyArabia]

One of the Palis on the sheet i saw was 11% SSA lol

That's quite high, not even ethnic Saudis score this high

[Yehiel]

That's quite high, not even ethnic Saudis score this high

Probably a Gazan

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I don't want him to convert. He's free to be a Muslim if he so wishes (although seperately I'd like to see major reforms in Islam).

They aren't Arabs. Most spoke Aramaic until 100 or 200 years ago. They are ruled by an Arab elite that's all.

The Palestinian cause is the opposite of Pan-Arabism. It, by it's very nationalistic nature, divides the Caliphate.

Of course they're arabs, you're just deluding yourself believing they are Crypto-Jews.

Aramaic was what the Christians spoke prior to Arabic, and that certainly wasn't 100 years ago.

All of the early slogans associated with the Palestinian "cause" are pan-arab in nature, all of the Palestinian political movements make a point highlighting the Arab nature of the Palestinian people.
By deciding to ignore that, you truly are making a fool out of yourself.

Reforms in Islam? Keep dreaming.

[randomguy1235]

One of the Palis on the sheet i saw was 11% SSA lol

Then you would know that the individual isn't an ethnic Pali. I'm referring to the general trend.

[Yehiel]

Then you would know that the individual isn't an ethnic Pali. I'm referring to the general trend.

The average for the others on the sheet i saw was around 3% i believe, i will check the others.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Another deluded zionophile harping on about the same point. Your one "study" doesn't prove that Palis are non-indigenous, and it's been debunked by sample compositions. Apparently, you're the blind one if you can't tell how the sheets prove the genetic affinity of Palis with other Levantine groups.

I didn't quote "one study", I actually quoted three.
You just chose to pick up on one and to ignore the others.

What do you mean by "sample compositions"? You mean ADMIX results, right? If so, you're wrong and should refer to my post about this issue.

Have I denied that Palestinians have high genetic affinity with other Levantine Arab groups? I think not.
I am merely pointing out that they are significantly more arab than either Druze, Lebanese Christian and Lebanese Muslims.
If you can't even acknowledge this simple fact, I'm afraid there's no point discussing this issue.

[StonyArabia]

randomguy1235 I think you should do a genetic test go with 23andme it's still the best one out there. It should answer your question. I believe Kamal already bought a kit. I bought one and it confirmed what I am, a mixture of Arabian, Caucasian, with some little Kipchak. It would also be interesting to see how you would compare to Jordanians, Bedouins, Arabians of various kinds, and South Europeans.

[Wadaad]

Then you would know that the individual isn't an ethnic Pali. I'm referring to the general trend.

11% SSA makes them not "ethnic Pali"?

[Yehiel]

Is it weird how on the gedmatch calculators i get Palestinian sometimes? lol

[randomguy1235]

11% SSA makes them not "ethnic Pali"?

Considering that the percentage is substantially higher than the average, he's/she's probably mixed with another ethnic group.

[Yehiel]

Randomguy on this dodecad spreadsheet the average pale had 7% SSA...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c#gid=0

[Anglojew]

I think the reason the Palis plot closer to they Saudis etc is because of Arab admixture, the same reason Jews plot in the middle of Levantines and Euros (sometimes closer to Euros) is because of the Euro admixture. To say that Palis are completely Israelite, and did not mix at all with Arabs after converting to Islam is crazy. They are almost just as mixed with Arabs as Jews are with Euros

No one is claiming that. There probably are a few villages that are completely Israelite though, but a minority.


Miro Cohen, a Jew from Tekoa, in eastern Gush Etzion, is very friendly with the Arabs in a nearby village known as Kawazbe – a name that he and they agree is merely a corruption of Kuzeiba, the original name of the famous Bar Kokhba.

“These people are the descendants of Bar Kokhba,” Cohen declares. One Arab sitting with him can count his ancestors eight generations back, ending with a grandfather named Kawazbeh. Another village elder says openly that his grandfather was a Jew who converted to Islam. Some of the residents want to return to Judaism; they don’t call it converting, because they are “already Jewish.”


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132800

[Yehiel]

No one is claiming that. There probably are a few villages that are completely Israelite though, but a minority.



http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132800

Amazing, descendants of Simon Bar Kokhba himself.

[Yehiel]

On this spreadsheet the average pali had 11% african total..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&authkey=COCa89AJ&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

You're all putting too much faith in Admix components, you should keep in mind they are just composites of more ancient components (which are themselves composites of more ancient components).
That's the whole problem with Population Genetics right now, we're making educated guesses by looking at modern-day populations.

[Anglojew]

Of course they're arabs, you're just deluding yourself believing they are Crypto-Jews.

Aramaic was what the Christians spoke prior to Arabic, and that certainly wasn't 100 years ago.

All of the early slogans associated with the Palestinian "cause" are pan-arab in nature, all of the Palestinian political movements make a point highlighting the Arab nature of the Palestinian people.
By deciding to ignore that, you truly are making a fool out of yourself.

Reforms in Islam? Keep dreaming.

I never said they're crypto-Jews.

1. Not all Israelites were Jews (Judeans).

2. Not all Aramaic speakers were Israelites anyway.

3. There were some villages speaking Aramaic 100 years ago, there's still some in Syria today (Ma'loula, Bakh`a and Jubb`adin). There is NO doubt Palestinians spoke Aramaic until being replaced by Arabic after the Arab invasion. I'm not sure how this makes these people suddenly ethnically Arab though.

4. The Palestinian ruling class is made of Arabian (and other) clans who do speak Arabic so obviously Palestinian political slogans will be in Arabic.

[Yehiel]

I never said they're crypto-Jews.

1. Not all Israelites were Jews (Judeans).

2. Not all Aramaic speakers were Israelites anyway.

3. There were some villages speaking Aramaic 100 years ago, there's still some in Syria today (Ma'loula, Bakh`a and Jubb`adin). There is NO doubt Palestinians spoke Aramaic until being replaced by Arabic after the Arab invasion. I'm not sure how this makes these people suddenly ethnically Arab though.

4. The Palestinian ruling class is made of Arabian (and other) clans who do speak Arabic so obviously Palestinian political slogans will be in Arabic.

Well who do you think elects them?

[Anglojew]

Well who do you think elects them?

Isn't Abbas in the 10th year of a 4 year term right now? I think that tells you exactly how much they respect democracy.

[Yehiel]

Isn't Abbas in the 10th year of a 4 year term right now? I think that tells you exactly how much they respect democracy.

lol Hamas has been elected for 6 years of a 4 term... But still they represented the majority when they were elected

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I never said they're crypto-Jews.

1. Not all Israelites were Jews (Judeans).

True, but in the same way much of the Palestinians' Israelite ancestry might actually be Judean, and not Israelite (unless you're heading for Nablus/Shkhem).


2. Not all Aramaic speakers were Israelites anyway.


Have I ever produced such a ridiculous statement?


3. There were some villages speaking Aramaic 100 years ago, there's still some in Syria today (Ma'loula, Bakh`a and Jubb`adin). There is NO doubt Palestinians spoke Aramaic until being replaced by Arabic after the Arab invasion. I'm not sure how this makes these people suddenly ethnically Arab though.


Ma3loula, Jobb3adin and Bakh3a are all isolated communities where no large scale population replacement took place.
In fact, DNA samples from Ma3loula tend to show that the Arab invasion deeply changed the area's uniparental frequencies.
In such respects, the Western Neo-Aramaic speakers of Syria are an oddity.

Either way, I know of no Palestinian village which spoke Aramaic 100 or even 200 years ago.
I have very little reason to doubt that the area was almost entirely arabic-speaking by the 11th century CE.

"Palestinian Arabic" (there is no such thing actually, but for the sake of conveniency we'll pretend such a dialect exists) does exhibit Aramaisms, especially in the verbal morphology... Yet again, all Levantine dialects exhibit such influence, and this influence is even stronger in Lebanese Arabic (where the verbal structure is very peculiar).

So that's not exactly surprising.


4. The Palestinian ruling class is made of Arabian (and other) clans who do speak Arabic so obviously Palestinian political slogans will be in Arabic.


You do realise that these "clans" aren't restricted to the fantasy "ruling class" you speak of, right?


Isn't Abbas in the 10th year of a 4 year term right now? I think that tells you exactly how much they respect democracy.

Absolutely, and when he'll be gone it will be Hamas' turn to be democratically elected.
I think that should hint to how deluded your perception of "Israelite Palestinians" really is.

[StonyArabia]

^ You are forgetting the Ghassanids who were Arabs who migrated to the region before Islam even appeared on the scene if any great change occurred it would have been with the Ghassanids. Jordan on the other hand has always been the extension of Arabia, genetically, culturally, and ethnically.

[Anglojew]

lol Hamas has been elected for 6 years of a 4 term... But still they represented the majority when they were elected

The problem is they don't have many alternatives. Also, they rejected Fatah as corrupt and hoped Hamas would be less corrupt (obviously it isn't eg It "sells" medicines and foods donated to Gazans and many other disgusting practices against their own people)

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139719
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=355739

[Yehiel]

The problem is they don't have many alternatives. Also, they rejected Fatah as corrupt and hoped Hamas would be less corrupt (obviously it isn't eg It "sells" medicines and foods donated to Gazans and many other disgusting practices against their own people)

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139719
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=355739

Come on man you need to wake up from fantasy, they elected Hamas because of the military wing, they elected Hamas because they want to kill Israelis, not because they are "less" corrupt. They said any peace deal signed by abbas does not apply to them..

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

^ You are forgetting the Ghassanids who were Arabs who migrated to the region before Islam even appeared on the scene if any great change occurred it would have been with the Ghassanids. Jordan on the other hand has always been the extension of Arabia, genetically, culturally, and ethnically.

Well am I?
The Arabisation of the Peninsula actually started when the Nabateans started invading and settling the Negev, that's how far you can push the whole phenomenon.
You could say that Arabic really took off during the 4th century with the Ghassanids, but that would be a stretch as well.

Much of the population would've retained Aramaic and lived apart, they would've been compelled to mingle only when Islam came about.

You are right about Jordan, and you can actually extend that to Palestinians.

[Anglojew]

True, but in the same way much of the Palestinians' Israelite ancestry might actually be Judean, and not Israelite (unless you're heading for Nablus/Shkhem).



Have I ever produced such a ridiculous statement?



Ma3loula, Jobb3adin and Bakh3a are all isolated communities where no large scale population replacement took place.
In fact, DNA samples from Ma3loula tend to show that the Arab invasion deeply changed the area's uniparental frequencies.
In such respects, the Western Neo-Aramaic speakers of Syria are an oddity.

Either way, I know of no Palestinian village which spoke Aramaic 100 or even 200 years ago.
I have very little reason to doubt that the area was almost entirely arabic-speaking by the 11th century CE.

"Palestinian Arabic" (there is no such thing actually, but for the sake of conveniency we'll pretend such a dialect exists) does exhibit Aramaisms, especially in the verbal morphology... Yet again, all Levantine dialects exhibit such influence, and this influence is even stronger in Lebanese Arabic (where the verbal structure is very peculiar).

So that's not exactly surprising.



You do realise that these "clans" aren't restricted to the fantasy "ruling class" you speak of, right?



Absolutely, and when he'll be gone it will be Hamas' turn to be democratically elected.
I think that should hint to how deluded your perception of "Israelite Palestinians" really is.

I've read about this somewhere but am finding it hard to find the reference but whether Arabic was imposed upon them suddenly or gradually it's of little consequence. The Palestinians are descendants of "The local.. Nabaț, referring to Aramaic-speaking villagers" population.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I've read about this somewhere but am finding it hard to find the reference but whether Arabic was imposed upon them suddenly or gradually it's of little consequence. The Palestinians are descendants of "The local.. Nabaț, referring to Aramaic-speaking villagers" population.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

Cool story bro, though you still have to explain me how these local Aramaic-speaking villagers came to overlap with Jordanians, Bedouins and Saudis on PCA plots.

[Anglojew]

Cool story bro, though you still have to explain me how these local Aramaic-speaking villagers came to overlap with Jordanians, Bedouins and Saudis on PCA plots.

Some are Arabian admixed but they only partially overlap;

http://faculty.oxy.edu/mccormack/McCormack/picks/pca2.jpg

Some Jews and Palestinians overlap anyway so, by your own logic you've proved yourself wrong;

http://faculty.oxy.edu/mccormack/McCormack/picks/pca.jpg

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Some are Arabian admixed but they only partially overlap;

http://faculty.oxy.edu/mccormack/McCormack/picks/pca2.jpg

Some Jews and Palestinians overlap anyway so, by your own logic you've proved yourself wrong;

http://faculty.oxy.edu/mccormack/McCormack/picks/pca.jpg

They don't "partially" overlap, they nearly cluster together actually.
The first PCA plot you posted comes from Behar et al 2010, one of the best studies to date on the subject, here's the same plot with the tags (can be found in the supplemental data):

http://pichoster.net/images/2014/02/13/pca.jpg

You can clearly see that Palestinians form a compact cluster overlying Jordanians, Bedouins and the northernmost Saudi samples with a very strong cline towards Yemeni Jews.
On the other hand, you can also see that there is no overlap between Jews (either Sephardi-Ashkenazi or Mizrahhi) and Palestinians.

The second PCA plot you posted offers very poor resolution, as Ashkenazim-Sephardim are easily distinguishable from Palestinians and form their own tight cluster.

[randomguy1235]

:bored:

Long time no see sgc2009

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Long time no see sgc2009

Who the hell is that?
I'd let go of the conspiracy theories if I were you, I know it's hard when you were raised in an environment which promotes conspiracy theories as truthful, but you can make an effort.

[Anglojew]

They don't "partially" overlap, they nearly cluster together actually.
The first PCA plot you posted comes from Behar et al 2010, one of the best studies to date on the subject, here's the same plot with the tags (can be found in the supplemental data):

http://pichoster.net/images/2014/02/13/pca.jpg

You can clearly see that Palestinians form a compact cluster overlying Jordanians, Bedouins and the northernmost Saudi samples with a very strong cline towards Yemeni Jews.
On the other hand, you can also see that there is no overlap between Jews (either Sephardi-Ashkenazi or Mizrahhi) and Palestinians.

The second PCA plot you posted offers very poor resolution, as Ashkenazim-Sephardim are easily distinguishable from Palestinians and form their own tight cluster.



Of course Palestinians overlap Jordanians. Palestinians form half the population. I'm not sure why someone on one side of the Jordan river would be much different from someone on the other side anyway? They were both part of the same Ottoman province;

http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~fisher/hst373/Maps/OttomanProvinces1609.JPG

and both part of anciant Israel;

http://www.citizenphilosophy.net/images/the_kingdoms_of_israel_and_judah__1_2_4152.jpg

The Jordanian Foreign Minister is even called Judeh;

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Nasser%2BJudeh%2BClinton%2BMeets%2BJordanian%2BFor eign%2BO3WpftB33Q1l.jpg

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Of course Palestinians overlap Jordanians. Palestinians form half the population. I'm not sure why someone on one side of the Jordan river would be much different from someone on the other side anyway? They were both part of the Ottoman province;

http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~fisher/hst373/Maps/OttomanProvinces1609.JPG

and both part of anciant Israel;

http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~fisher/hst373/Maps/OttomanProvinces1609.JPG

The Jordanian Foreign Minister is even called Judeh;

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Nasser%2BJudeh%2BClinton%2BMeets%2BJordanian%2BFor eign%2BO3WpftB33Q1l.jpg

If the Jordanian samples were Palestinian, they would've been listed as such.

Get your facts straight, Palestinians show a very strong Arabian affinity, no matter how much you deny it.

Here's what Behar says in the supplemental data about this:


The west Eurasian restricted PC plot further supports this observation and suggests a
very tight cluster for Yemenite Jews, intermediate in location on the plot between Saudis and
Palestinians.

[...]

The proximity of the Yemenite Jews to Palestinians and Saudis on the
PC plot might reflect a genetic contribution from the Arabian Peninsula, rather than recent
shared ancestry.

[Anglojew]

If the Jordanian samples were Palestinian, they would've been listed as such.

Get your facts straight, Palestinians show a very strong Arabian affinity, no matter how much you deny it.

Here's what Behar says in the supplemental data about this:

They plot with Yemeni Jews because they're the only Jewish group with Arab admixture besides....Palestinians, which is why they plot together. I just don't understand your logic.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

They plot with Yemeni Jews because they're the only Jewish group with Arab admixture besides....Palestinians, which is why they plot together. I just don't understand your logic.

Yemeni Jews are actually converts for the most, which is why they are a better proxy for the Arabian peninsula's pre-Islamic genetic landscape than Bedouins or Saudis, which have both absorbed a huge deal of SSA admixture.

They do not plot with Palestinians, the latter cline towards them which is highly suggestive of a high amount of Arabian ancestry.

If you don't understand that, you never will.

[Anglojew]

Yemeni Jews are actually converts for the most, which is why they are a better proxy for the Arabian peninsula's pre-Islamic genetic landscape than Bedouins or Saudis, which have both absorbed a huge deal of SSA admixture.

They do not plot with Palestinians, the latter cline towards them which is highly suggestive of a high amount of Arabian ancestry.

If you don't understand that, you never will.

This isn't true. Yemeni Jews are descended from mostly Israelite males and Arabian females;




DNA testing between Yemenite Jews and members of the world's other various Jewish communities shows a common link, with most communities sharing similar paternal genetic profiles. Furthermore, the Y-chromosome signatures of the Yemenite Jews are also similar to those of other Middle Eastern populations.[43]
Despite their long-term residence in different countries and their isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa and the Middle East are descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and they suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.[44]
It can be said that the Jewish communities of southern Arabia in terms of their origin are not homogeneous. Immigrants came from the same areas: Palestine, Babylon, Iran, Egypt, Syria and Spain and North Africa. They completed the management of the community and brought Jewish customs into the country. Information on the circumstances and the context of the time allowed the settlements of Jews in the South Arabian space to be not as dependent on the interpretation of oral traditions as Jews elsewhere. Yemenite Jews are descended from Israelites.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_Jews#cite_note-43


Jews were distantly related to Middle Eastern Jews

http://news.sciencemag.org/2012/08/roots-jewishness

That Israelites admixed with Arabians exactly overlap with Israelites mixed with Arabians....revolutionary!

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

This isn't true. Yemeni Jews are descended from mostly Israelite males and Arabian females;





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_Jews#cite_note-43



http://news.sciencemag.org/2012/08/roots-jewishness

That Israelites admixed with Arabians exactly overlap with Israelites mixed with Arabians....revolutionary!


You don't get it do you?
Yemenite Jews and Palestinians DO NOT OVERLAP: The latter cline towards the former.

Either way, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Stormer99]

Yemeni Jews are Jewish Arabian mixes.

[Anglojew]

You don't get it do you?
Yemenite Jews and Palestinians DO NOT OVERLAP: The latter cline towards the former.

Either way, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Yes, we shall.

The fact is that all "Semitic" populations were once related anyway.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Yes, we shall.

The fact is that all "Semitic" populations were once related anyway.

I agree on the latter part, though the "Semitic" label is a bit weird in population genetics, better to say "Semitic-speaking".
I'd rather use "Semitic" as a purely linguistic term.

[Anglojew]

I agree on the latter part, though the "Semitic" label is a bit weird in population genetics, better to say "Semitic-speaking".
I'd rather use "Semitic" as a purely linguistic term.

That's why I put it in inverted commas. I agree.

[Yehiel]

Yes, we shall.

The fact is that all "Semitic" populations were once related anyway.

I have a Palestinian cousin on 23andme

[StonyArabia]

Yemeni Jews are actually converts for the most, which is why they are a better proxy for the Arabian peninsula's pre-Islamic genetic landscape than Bedouins or Saudis, which have both absorbed a huge deal of SSA admixture.

Not true, Yemeni Jews are genetically identical to ethnic Saudis and ethnic Bedouins. The SSA is greatly exaggerated and comes from non-ethnic people living in those region especially in the case of Saudis, there is Saudis of all kinds, but the Arabian population maintains they are distinct and different from them and they are located mostly in Hejaz, well there is some people of African origins living in the south, they are not considered to be part of the ethnic components just as citizens. However there is no pure population, everyone has degree of an admix.

[Anglojew]

I have a Palestinian cousin on 23andme

He must be a nice fellow.

[Anglojew]

Not true, Yemeni Jews are genetically identical to ethnic Saudis and ethnic Bedouins. The SSA is greatly exaggerated and comes from non-ethnic people living in those region especially in the case of Saudis, there is Saudis of all kinds, but the Arabian population maintains they are distinct and different from them and they are located mostly in Hejaz, well there is some people of African origins living in the south, they are not considered to be part of the ethnic components just as citizens. However there is no pure population, everyone has degree of an admix.

Your mother looks more Jewish than Arab.

[Yehiel]

He must be a nice fellow.

I sent him a share but he never accepted

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Not true, Yemeni Jews are genetically identical to ethnic Saudis and ethnic Bedouins. The SSA is greatly exaggerated and comes from non-ethnic people living in those region especially in the case of Saudis, there is Saudis of all kinds, but the Arabian population maintains they are distinct and different from them and they are located mostly in Hejaz, well there is some people of African origins living in the south, they are not considered to be part of the ethnic components just as citizens. However there is no pure population, everyone has degree of an admix.

They aren't "genetically identical" to Saudis and Bedouins, they form their own cluster FYI.
I haven't claimed that they are "pure" either, so this is a no-brainer.
I am just saying that they might offer a more realistic insight onto the peninsula's pre-islamic genetic landscape, considering the fact that they are an isolate which cristallized prior to the emergence of islam.

[Yehiel]

The Yemenites Jews have been there since time of 1st Temple.

[StonyArabia]

Your mother looks more Jewish than Arab.

Yes my mom looks very Semitic contrary to what others might claim.


The Yemenites Jews have been there since time of 1st Temple.

Yes but a good number of them are converted Arabians from the Himyrites and Kindah tribes as well. They both created kingdoms based on Judaism actually. However Jewish presence in Arabia indeed starts from the time of Solomon. Judaism was also adopted as the official state religion in the 5th century, but events like the Axumite invasions weakened it.

[Yehiel]

Yes my mom looks very Semitic contrary to what others might claim.



Yes but a good number of them are converted Arabians from the Himyrites and Kindah tribes as well. They both created kingdoms based on Judaism actually. However Jewish presence in Arabia indeed starts from the time of Solomon. Judaism was also adopted as the official state religion in the 5th century, but events like the Axumite invasions weakened it.

Yes i agree many of them are gone however, i believe you cannot say for certain because i still believe as of now there is no way to distinguish between Hebrew or Arab admixture.. atleast that i know of..

[StonyArabia]

They aren't "genetically identical" to Saudis and Bedouins, they form their own cluster FYI.
I haven't claimed that they are "pure" either, so this is a no-brainer.
I am just saying that they might offer a more realistic insight onto the peninsula's pre-islamic genetic landscape, considering the fact that they are an isolate which cristallized prior to the emergence of islam.

Autosomally they are not different than ethnic Saudis, but their Y-DNA does show Israelite markers so?

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Yes i agree many of them are gone however, i believe you cannot say for certain because i still believe as of now there is no way to distinguish between Hebrew or Arab admixture.. atleast that i know of..

There actually is, if we are to base ourselves on actual ADMIX components you could argue that inflated "East Med", "Caucasus" and "West Med" scores are telltale signs of Levantine ancestry in the area... But this is highly speculative of course, and aDNA will be needed to clarify these issues in the future.

[Yehiel]

I believe all Jewish groups from around the world share a Israelite foundation except for maybe a few...

[StonyArabia]

I believe all Jewish groups from around the world share a Israelite foundation except for maybe a few...

Yes, but often little. Although I believe the Israelites were not much different from the Bedouins to begin with because they originated in the Jordan Valley, this is my opinion, and Northern Arabic culture, language was developed in that region.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I believe all Jewish groups from around the world share a Israelite foundation except for maybe a few...

This isn't a belief, this is a fact.
Learn to make the difference :)

[Yehiel]

There actually is, if we are to base ourselves on actual ADMIX components you could argue that inflated "East Med", "Caucasus" and "West Med" scores are telltale signs of Levantine ancestry in the area... But this is highly speculative of course, and aDNA will be needed to clarify these issues in the future.

I believe that could be a sign... Assyrians only show 19% southwest asian on dodecad k12b spreadsheet and they are probably the oldest people in the area that remained.. Saudis show about 60%. I guess you can also come to the conclusion that the Israelites also lacked the Southwest Asian component & had high Caucasus & East Med.

[Stormer99]

I believe all Jewish groups from around the world share a Israelite foundation except for maybe a few...

Ethiopian ones do not. They are almost exactly the same in admixture components as other Ethiopians.

[Yehiel]

Yes, but often little. Although I believe the Israelites were not much different from the Bedouins to begin with because they originated in the Jordan Valley, this is my opinion, and Northern Arabic culture, language was developed in that region.

Best representation of the Israelites would probably be ancient Babylonians or Assyrians and modern Iraqi Jews & Samaritans maybe

[StonyArabia]

I believe that could be a sign... Assyrians only show 19% southwest asian on dodecad k12b spreadsheet and they are probably the oldest people in the area that remained.. Saudis show about 60%. I guess you can also come to the conclusion that the Israelites also lacked the Southwest Asian component & had high Caucasus & East Med.

No Israelites were heavy SouthWest Asian, they diluted it when they mixed with their neighbours. Plus they assimilate tons of Arabs like the Midianites for example.

[Yehiel]

Ethiopian ones do not. They are almost exactly the same in admixture components as other Ethiopians.

I said except for a few, but I will look into that..

[Yehiel]

No Israelites were heavy SouthWest Asian, they diluted it when they mixed with their neighbours. Plus they assimilate tons of Arabs like the Midianites for example.

I dont believe they brung in that many outsiders to make that big of a genetic impact.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Yes, but often little. Although I believe the Israelites were not much different from the Bedouins to begin with because they originated in the Jordan Valley, this is my opinion, and Northern Arabic culture, language was developed in that region.

The Israelites emerged from the same cohort as the Phoenicians during the Bronze Age Collapse, when the highlands of Judea and Samaria were settled by Cattle nomads (probably Shasu).
The encampents during the late bronze age start ressembling nomadic encampents, save for the fact that they are not actual encampents but villages where terrace agriculture is practiced.
If anything, this suggests that Canaanite refugees from the lowlands mingled with incoming Shasu nomads, the former being a majority and the latter a minority (which is why these early Israelites still ended up speaking a Canaanite language).

This would hardly make Israelites arabian-like, if anything they might've been more Caucasian-like given the constant immigration of Hurrians to the area during the Bronze Age.

[Anglojew]

Ethiopian ones do not. They are almost exactly the same in admixture components as other Ethiopians.

There's some evidence that the Ethiopian community was founded by Israelites;

http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/07/22/the-sudan-connection-are-ethiopian-jews-descendants-of-the-ancient-israelites/

[Yehiel]

There's some evidence that the Ethiopian community was founded by Israelites;

http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/07/22/the-sudan-connection-are-ethiopian-jews-descendants-of-the-ancient-israelites/

There was clearly ancient communication between the two so it definitely wouldnt surprise me.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Best representation of the Israelites would probably be ancient Babylonians or Assyrians and modern Iraqi Jews & Samaritans maybe

I wouldn't bet on this, my guess is that the Iraqi-Georgian-Iranian Jewish cluster is the product of heavy intermarriage with the Babylonian hosts.
Samaritans are better candidates, though they are heavily inbred and have been through severe bottlenecks... They might've mixed as well, remember they haven't continuously inhabited Samaria.

Truth be told, we need genome-wide studies of pre-exilic Judeans to say anything about all this, and even then we'll probably be splitting hairs.

[Yehiel]

I wouldn't bet on this, my guess is that the Iraqi-Georgian-Iranian Jewish cluster is the product of heavy intermarriage with the Babylonian hosts.
Samaritans are better candidates, though they are heavily inbred and have been through severe bottlenecks... They might've mixed as well, remember they haven't continuously inhabited Samaria.

Truth be told, we need genome-wide studies of pre-exilic Judeans to say anything about all this, and even then we'll probably be splitting hairs.

Yup, that is why i still stand by my belief that as of now know one can for sure calculate how much Israelite admixture we have, even though i believe all Jews have some sort.

[StonyArabia]

if you mix a Bedouin+Kavkazian=Georgian Jew or Assyrian as in my case.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Yup, that is why i still stand by my belief that as of now know one can for sure calculate how much Israelite admixture we have, even though i believe all Jews have some sort.

The general impression I get based on IBD sharing, uniparental markers and autosomal DNA is that Sephardi-Ashkenazi Jews are a typically Northern-Levantine and Eastern Mediterranean group while Iraqi-Georgian-Iranian Jews are mainly Assyrian-like althought they node towards other Jews.
These two clusters are actually the only two Jewish groups bound to have retained a high amount of pre-exilic Judean ancestry.

The rest, that is to say Yemeni, Cochin, Falasha and Kaifeng Jews, while exhibiting some markers common to all Jewish groups, seem to be mainly the result of intermarriage between converts and Jewish men.
This is my assessment, could be wrong, but this is what I deem likely.

[Stormer99]

if you mix a Bedouin+Kavkazian=Georgian Jew or Assyrian as in my case.

What does it mean if someone gets this on a genetic calculator? I've seen some people getting it.

[StonyArabia]

The question is why a North Kavkazian +Bedouin= Assyrian or Georgian Jew. Clearly these people have significant Arabian ancestry.

[Yehiel]

The general impression I get based on IBD sharing, uniparental markers and autosomal DNA is that Sephardi-Ashkenazi Jews are a typically Northern-Levantine and Eastern Mediterranean group while Iraqi-Georgian-Iranian Jews are mainly Assyrian-like althought they node towards other Jews.
These two clusters are actually the only two Jewish groups bound to have retained a high amount of pre-exilic Judean ancestry.

The rest, that is to say Yemeni, Cochin, Falasha and Kaifeng Jews, while exhibiting some markers common to all Jewish groups, seem to be mainly the result of intermarriage between converts and Jewish men.
This is my assessment, could be wrong, but this is what I deem likely.

I think most Jewish populations are descendants of Jewish man mating with converts from the Roman exile period

[StonyArabia]

What does it mean if someone gets this on a genetic calculator? I've seen some people getting it.

Probably they have Kavkazian and Bedouin ancestry. Though if you combine both of them you get the result of a Caucasian Jews and Assyrians, but this where the person of this component would cluster.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I think most Jewish populations are descendants of Jewish man mating with converts from the Roman exile period

That could be, but we'll need the aDNA to confirm or reject that theory.

I, for one, think that Ashkenazim-Sephardim must've retained around ~70% overall Judean ancestry.
This is mainly because the mtDNA doesn't suggest some overwhelmingly European origin for these groups, and the frequency doesn't matter that much given that these groups are near-indistinguishable.

[Yehiel]

That could be, but we'll need the aDNA to confirm or reject that theory.

I, for one, think that Ashkenazim-Sephardim must've retained around ~70% overall Judean ancestry.
This is mainly because the mtDNA doesn't suggest some overwhelmingly European origin for these groups, and the frequency doesn't matter that much given that these groups are near-indistinguishable.

The dodecad spreadsheet puts the Sephardim at 70% Middle East, North African, Caucasus & Med combined with Ashkenazim at 60% & other Levantines at 80% including the Palis.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

The dodecad spreadsheet puts the Sephardim at 70% Middle East, North African, Caucasus & Med combined with Ashkenazim at 60% & other Levantines at 80% including the Palis.

Ashkenazim are actually closer to 68~70% than 60%.
Either way, I think that around 70% Judean is a good bet for the Ashkenazi-Sephardi cluster.

[Yehiel]

Ashkenazim are actually closer to 68~70% than 60%.
Either way, I think that around 70% Judean is a good bet for the Ashkenazi-Sephardi cluster.

What study says this?

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

What study says this?

No study, just my assessment based on what I've observed throughout my research.
One compelling indication as to this is that half-Jews often tend to score around ~35% Levantine, so you're looking at a possible equalizer.

I tend not to put much weight on ADMIX components such as West Asian, Mediterranean and so on since they are relatively recent in nature and are composites of older components.

The fact that Ashkenazim do not share any Mesolithic alleles with Europeans (WHG component, which is more of a component than all the components you find on GEDmatch) is also a strong indicator: The Judean population might've been more Mediterranean-like prior to the exile.

[Yehiel]

No study, just my assessment based on what I've observed throughout my research.
One compelling indication as to this is that half-Jews often tend to score around ~35% Levantine, so you're looking at a possible equalizer.

I tend not to put much weight on ADMIX components such as West Asian, Mediterranean and so on since they are relatively recent in nature and are composites of older components.

The fact that Ashkenazim do not share any Mesolithic alleles with Europeans (WHG component, which is more of a component than all the components you find on GEDmatch) is also a strong indicator: The Judean population might've been more Mediterranean like prior to the exile.

I am 1/4 Sephardi Jew and i score 32% non Euro on Gedmatch calculaters

But yes they were Med admixed before Exile i believe had a stron east med component.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I am 1/4 Sephardi Jew and i score 32% non Euro on Gedmatch calculaters

Where did your Sephardi parent come from?

[Yehiel]

Where did your Sephardi parent come from?

France, but of course before that Spain

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

France, but of course before that Spain

What about the rest, are you half-Jewish or just 1/4 Jewish?

[Yehiel]

What about the rest, are you half-Jewish or just 1/4 Jewish?

Just 1/4 genetically.. I practice Orthodox Judaism though if that matters

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Just 1/4 genetically.. I practice Orthodox Judaism though if that matters

The fact you'd get 32% non-Euro (I wonder which kind of population that is) with only one Sephardi grandparent seems pretty odd to me, tbh.

So your matrilineal grandmother was Sephardic, huh?

[Yehiel]

The fact you'd get 32% non-Euro (I wonder which kind of population that is) with only one Sephardi grandparent seems pretty odd to me, tbh.

So your matrilineal grandmother was Sephardic, huh?

Paternal so i have convert

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Paternal so i have convert

Well, it is your choice to make.

I think most Jews would see a patrilineal jew as Jewish, at least that's the impression I get from my interactions with Jews.
But if you feel the need to convert, don't let anyone stop you.

Either way, what did you mean by "non-Euro"? Is it specifically Druze, Syrian or Lebanese?

[Yehiel]

Well, it is your choice to make.

I think most Jews would see a patrilineal jew as Jewish, at least that's the impression I get from my interactions with Jews.
But if you feel the need to convert, don't let anyone stop you.

Either way, what did you mean by "non-Euro"? Is it specifically Druze, Syrian or Lebanese?

I am orthodox Jew, but yes we believe a convert is Just as Jewish as a born Jew.. I mean i get 32 Caucasus, east med, southwest asian & med & north african

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I am orthodox Jew, but yes we believe a convert is Just as Jewish as a born Jew.. I mean i get 32 Caucasus, east med, southwest asian & med & north african

Ah, but on the mixed-mode, what do you get?
Surely not something like ~35% Levantine, right?

[Yehiel]

Ah, but on the mixed-mode, what do you get?
Surely not something like ~35% Levantine, right?

No i usually get 24% Sephardi, or like 25-30% s.italian or greek and around 15% Lebanese, Syrian, etc.. it depends on the calculator.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

No i usually get 24% Sephardi, or like 25-30% s.italian or greek and around 15% Lebanese, Syrian, etc.. it depends on the calculator.

Yeah, that's more in line with your known ancestry.
If you were half-Sephardi, you'd get twice as much Lebanese/Syrian and that would put you in the ~35% Levantine threshold I spoke of earlier.

[Yehiel]

Yeah, that's more in line with your known ancestry.
If you were half-Sephardi, you'd get twice as much Lebanese/Syrian and that would put you in the ~35% Levantine threshold I spoke of earlier.

Yup you are correct

[Maleficent]

I first have this to say in this thread:


In 1012, the al-Hakem Edict was issued, under which all Jews and Christians in Palestine were ordered to either convert to Islam or leave. This led to the majority of non-Hebrew origin Christians (i.e., foreign Christians) to leave Palestine, while over 90 per cent of Jews, Samaritans (also of Hebrew origin) and Hebrew-origin Christians converted and became Muslims. They would also become Musta'arabim (Arabized), acculturated into Arab language, custom and culture.That seems quite odd. So non-Hebrew origin Christians left and Hebrew-origin Christians submitted to Islam?! I don't think so.....that would mean there were no Christians left in Palestine. There are many many families there to this day, and of course, there wouldn't be a Palestinian Christian diaspora since the late 1800s if that claim were true. They did not appear out of nowhere.


I'll be back later, I have more to contribute to this thread.

[Stormer99]

I first have this to say in this thread:

That seems quite odd. So non-Hebrew origin Christians left and Hebrew-origin Christians submitted to Islam?! I don't think so.....that would mean there were no Christians left in Palestine. There are many many families there to this day, and of course, there wouldn't be a Palestinian Christian diaspora since the late 1800s if that claim were true. They did not appear out of nowhere.


I'll be back later, I have more to contribute to this thread.

Sometimes families converted to Islam before going back to Christianity.

[Wadaad]

Sometimes families converted to Islam before going back to Christianity.

Opportunists

[Anglojew]

I first have this to say in this thread:

That seems quite odd. So non-Hebrew origin Christians left and Hebrew-origin Christians submitted to Islam?! I don't think so.....that would mean there were no Christians left in Palestine. There are many many families there to this day, and of course, there wouldn't be a Palestinian Christian diaspora since the late 1800s if that claim were true. They did not appear out of nowhere.


I'll be back later, I have more to contribute to this thread.

I think he means Armenians or other Christians who weren't Palestinians.

[Maleficent]

Sometimes families converted to Islam before going back to Christianity.
LOL.

Opportunists
Exactly. People like that were probably low-life scum.

I think he means Armenians or other Christians who weren't Palestinians.
Armenian community of Palestine is small but longwithstanding(and mostly concentrated within the Armenian Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem). I doubt any of them were ever converted to Islam. Armenians are a very proud Christian people, known as one of the first ethnicities and nations to ever adopt Christianity.

[Maleficent]

The Muytar are from Iraq and Kuwait, but the Matar is a Ghassanid clan that eventually embraced Islam in recent times.

What are you talking about?! I know the name Matar. It is distinctly a Christian surname.

[StonyArabia]

What are you talking about?! I know the name Matar. It is distinctly a Christian surname.

Yes Matar is not the same Mutyar. Because Matar is a Ghassanid clan, and some of them did embrace Islam not all of them and you are correct btw. Mutyar are complete different tribe and people their native to Arabia, there not found in Palestine.

[Maleficent]

Tzvi Misnai is a lunatic, these people are Arabs and can be tied to well-documented Arab tribes for the most.
The Christians seem to have preserved more Israelite ancestry, though they still have a discernable amount of Arab admixture.
Not even Levantine Muslims have any official recognized Arab tribes though like Iraqi and Gulf Arabs do, as I have noticed Nabatea saying throughout this thread.

Nope many Christians are heavily Ghassanid or Taghlib, not mention the Nabatean migration. The original Israelite were not much different from the Bedouins/Arabians, because they came from the Jordan Valley the region where Northern Arabic was developed in fact.Why do you insist upon exaggerating Ghassanid origins of the Christians?! DNA analysis along with history have refuted this time and time again.

[StonyArabia]

Why do you insist upon exaggerating Ghassanid origins of the Christians?! DNA analysis along with history have refuted this time and time again.

Well this what they claim themselves, they say they are clan of Ghassanids, but of course they have intermixed with the local population.

[Maleficent]

Well this what they claim themselves, they say they are clan of Ghassanids, but of course they have intermixed with the local population.

Ghassanids are long gone and extinct only to leave a minor mark in the genome of Mid-East Christians. Their legacy is an over-exaggeration and I'd even wager most Levant Christians are culturally the same as 1500 to 2000 years ago.

[StonyArabia]

Ghassanids are long gone and extinct only to leave a minor mark in the genome of Mid-East Christians. Their legacy is an over-exaggeration and I'd even wager most Levant Christians are culturally the same as 1500 to 2000 years ago.

I don't think so,they left a remarkable legacy in culture and linguistic tradition among many Middle Eastern Christians. Not mention the Matar clan does in fact have the Arab specific J1e lineage. However their genetic legacy exist just varies in portions of the individual, but genetically their presence might not be there again varies in individuals, but culturally they are. I would say they have left a great legacy in the world of Oriental Christianity.

[Smeagol]

Ghassanids are long gone and extinct only to leave a minor mark in the genome of Mid-East Christians. Their legacy is an over-exaggeration and I'd even wager most Levant Christians are culturally the same as 1500 to 2000 years ago.

Why so racist?

[YeshAtid]

Why so racist?
She's reluctant to admit she's a foreign invader, hence her criticism. Is it me or is she a quadroon?

[Smeagol]

She's reluctant to admit she's a foreign invader, hence her criticism. Is it me or is she a quadroon?

All Palestinians are.:rolleyes2:

[YeshAtid]

All Palestinians are.:rolleyes2:
They're Nordics :cool:

[Maleficent]

I don't think so,they left a remarkable legacy in culture and linguistic tradition among many Middle Eastern Christians. Not mention the Matar clan does in fact have the Arab specific J1e lineage. However their genetic legacy exist just varies in portions of the individual, but genetically their presence might not be there again varies in individuals, but culturally they are. I would say they have left a great legacy in the world of Oriental Christianity.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#DNA_and_genetic_studies

In a genetic study of Y-chromosomal STRs in two populations from Israel and the Palestinian Authority Area: Christian and Muslim Palestinians showed genetic differences. The majority of Palestinian Christians (31.82%) were a subclade of E1b1b, followed by G2a (11.36%), and J1 (9.09%). The majority of Palestinian Muslims were haplogroup J1 (37.82%) followed by E1b1b (19.33%), and T (5.88%). The study sample consisted of 44 Palestinian Christians and 119 Palestinian Muslims.[111]J1 is most common for Muslims, whereas it's third most common for Christians. E1b1b is most common for Christians whereas it's second most common for Muslims. And before anyone goes whining that E1b1b is not from the Levant, most have the Semitic and/or Levantine type subclades: M123, M34, M84, M290, V23, and V22.

Why so racist?:coffee:

[Smeagol]

:coffee:

Embrace your Arabid heritage.