Some Historical Evidence Written in Y-Chromosome

[Kadu]

Some new insight on R1b, R1a1 and other haplogroups.


The data presented below will show several major con-
clusions:


(a) The male Basques living today have rather recent
roots of less than four thousand years ago, contrary to
the legend that proposes they lived some 30 thousand
years ago.



(b) There is no justification in the results of a
"Ukrainian refuge" for the R1a1 ancient population
allegedly 15,000 years ago; instead, evidence has been
obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 20,000 years
before the present (ybp) in South Siberia. There are two
sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp
and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different
methods, and 11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the
Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia).



(c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations,
present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern
Europe have common ancestors who lived between
3550 and 4750 years ago (the "youngest" in Scotland,
Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500
ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),



(d) There are two different groups of Indian R1a1
haplotypes; one shows a good match with the Russian
Slavic R1a1 group, having a common ancestor several
hundred years "younger" than the Russian R1a com-
mon ancestor (4,050±500 vs. 4,750±500 ybp). This
supports the idea that a proto-Slavic migration to India
as Aryans occurred (mentioned in classic ancient Indian
literature) around 3600 ybp. The other Indian R1a
population is significantly older, with a common ances-
tor living 7,125±950 ybp; they could have migrated
from South Siberia to South India.



(e) South India Chenchu R1a1 match the current Rus-
sian Slavic R1a1 haplotypes, and the Chenchu R1a
common ancestor appeared some 3200±1900 ybp, ap-
parently after the R1a1 migration from the North to
India. Another Chenchu R1a1 lineage originated about
350±350 ybp, around the 17th century CE.
(f) The so-called Cohen Modal Haplotype in Haplo-
group J1 originated 9,000±1,400 years ago, if all related
J1 haplotypes are considered. About 4,000±520 ybp it
appeared in the proto-Jewish population, and
1,050±190 years ago (if to consider only CMH) or
1,400±260 years ago (if to consider only Jewish J1
population) split a "recent CMH" lineage.



(g) another so-called CMH, of Haplogroup J2, appeared
in the Jewish population 1,375±300 years ago,
(h)The South African Lemba population of Haplogroup
J has nothing to do with ancient Jewish patriarchs, since
the haplogroup appears to have penetrated the Lemba
population some 625±200 ybp, around the 14th century
CE.



(i) Native American Haplogroup Q1a3a contains at
least six lineages, the oldest of which originated
16,000±3,300 years ago, in accord with archaeological
data.



DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidence Written in Y-Chromosome, Part II: Walking the Map (http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf)

[Osweo]

This supports the idea that a proto-Slavic migration to India as Aryans occurred (mentioned in classic ancient Indian
literature) around 3600 ybp.
Unsurprisingly, I discover when I wave my cursor over the URL that a RUSSIAN wrote this. Facepalm... What idiocy.

The Scythian impact on the early Slavs is common knowledge. Scythians were Aryans, near enough. End of story.

Now I doubt the wisdom of accepting the other conclusions.

[Loki]

Unsurprisingly, I discover when I wave my cursor over the URL that a RUSSIAN wrote this. Facepalm... What idiocy.

The Scythian impact on the early Slavs is common knowledge. Scythians were Aryans, near enough. End of story.

Now I doubt the wisdom of accepting the other conclusions.

Hmmm ... but the Scythian ethnos is much more recent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians#Origins_and_pre-history_.28to_700_BC.29) than what these findings imply. The link between the "proto-Slavic" (read: Proto-IE/Aryan) and Indian lineages is ancient, i.e. more than 3,000 years ago.

[Osweo]

Hmmm ... but the Scythian ethnos is much more recent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians#Origins_and_pre-history_.28to_700_BC.29) than what these findings imply. The link between the "proto-Slavic" (read: Proto-IE/Aryan) and Indian lineages is ancient, i.e. more than 3,000 years ago.

Sure, whatever, I didn't bother going into it too much, I just wanted to highlight the absurdity of this 'proto-Slavic' statement. Anyone who dares make such an utterance is not worth listening to.

By the way though, Cimmerians, Scythians, Alans, Sarmatians, Parthians etc. are all much the same thing, just consecutive waves of the same thing. The Aryans that rode into Persia and India were an earlier edition of the same. The older Afanasyevo Culture is too, for the far northeastern extreme.

[Allenson]

I think there is way too much uncertainty at the present with dating techniques, mutation rates, etc., to be staunchly in any one camp regarding the ages & geographic origins of haplogroups.

Scientific pendulums rarely swing this far, from one extreme to another without leveling out somewhere in the middle eventually.

[Kadu]

I think there is way too much uncertainty at the present with dating techniques, mutation rates, etc., to be staunchly in any one camp regarding the ages & geographic origins of haplogroups.

Scientific pendulums rarely swing this far, from one extreme to another without leveling out somewhere in the middle eventually.

But don't you agree that it's far easier to relate these datings with pre-historical events than before?
Things start to make more sense IMO.

[Azvarohi]

Klyosov makes some sense in his claims, however he has some issues...only taking his methodology into account his "Balkanic"-R1a1 consist of a cherry picked portion and also from authors spanning several years (some maybe even before the SNP-assignment of R-M17/M198), thus some of his R1a1 samples from the Balkans might be R1a* or even Q, also he used a little collection of samples out of hundreds, which would combined with above stated result in his very high age for R1a1 in the Balkans compared to rest of Europe.

If I recall, taking all his samples from the Balkans, the age becomes something like 5000-6000 years old.

His method of calculating also become less accurate the more markers you use, and is totally useless with more than 25-markers. A consistent method shouldn't become less acurrate the more information you give it...

That being said, most of his age estimates agrees with other methods quite well though (talking about the R1a1 estimates now). Remember he uses 25 years/generation, while many other uses 30 years/generation so if you want to compare different age estimates from different people, then keep that in mind and recalculate on a simple basis.