PDA

View Full Version : Affirmative Action/Employment Equity/Positive Action schemes: Have they outlived their usefulness?



Aemma
12-08-2009, 02:55 AM
Affirmative action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action) has long been touted as a reasonable scheme to redress some issues involving past problems with systemic discrimination based on a plethora of what I will uncharitably and unPC-ly call 'otherness factors', such as race and gender being the big two.

The question is simple: Do you think that such laws, which have been in effect for a good many decades now, have outlived their usefulness in our present day? Please elaborate your answer as well.

Thank you! :)

Electronic God-Man
12-08-2009, 03:10 AM
I don't think they were ever reasonable. I've never heard a positive story about Affirmative Action, but then again it's just evil White folk with their White Privilege that get the shaft in that deal anyway.

BlueEyedBeast
12-08-2009, 03:23 AM
...but then again it's just evil White folk with their White Privilege that get the shaft in that deal anyway.

Yeah, this is why I think that affirmative action is horseshit. It forces otherwise legitimate companies to meet a certain quota of "minorities" to achieve "diversity", even if it means firing exceptional white employees and hiring those who are completely incompetent because they're "disadvantaged".

Here is another point of view on affirmative action.

uyYuayiVCN0

p.s.
I'm unsure of how to vote on the poll here, because the 'usefulness' of affirmative action doesn't really factor into my distaste for it.

Rusalka
12-08-2009, 04:17 AM
I think affirmative action fails to remember a more important factor than race: class

The difference between classes is greater than the difference between whites and blacks.

Middle or upper-class women may, through affirmative action, get an upper hand over poor men, who are in a greater need of a job. Meanwhile, the breach between the rich and the poor keeps expanding. The same with reasonably affluent blacks who get some form of preferential treatment when applying to college. What this creates (very much to the elite's delight) is resentment among the races while the issue of class is left untackled.

But I'm not very versed in this issue. What I perceive from this latitude is that affirmative action in America was the natural result of a society that started, from the get-go, with "us" and "them". And that remained so even as it incorporated different ethnic groups. Hence the "hypheneted Americans". The Virgina Company transplanted whole communites that didn't interbreed, contrary to what happened in Latin America, where you rarely hear of programmes such as affrimartive action, or if there are any, they are not as resounding as in America. Hence why now affirmative action serves group interests rather than American society as a whole.

la bombe
12-08-2009, 05:12 AM
Middle or upper-class women may, through affirmative action, get an upper hand over poor men, who are in a greater need of a job. Meanwhile, the breach between the rich and the poor keeps expanding. The same with reasonably affluent blacks who get some form of preferential treatment when applying to college. What this creates (very much to the elite's delight) is resentment among the races while the issue of class is left untackled.


Yeah, contrary to popular belief, white women have been the #1 beneficiaries of affirmative action policies in the US.

I agree that affirmative action policies often fail to address the issue of economic inequality. There are so many social barriers in place that prevent lower-and-middle class citizens from educational and economic achievement.

Sol Invictus
12-08-2009, 05:19 AM
Affirmative Action is alive and well here and we're actually taught about it alot in class. I can't get a job with Peel Regional Police (was my first choice) because I am the wrong skin colour and the wrong sex, and my instructor told me this straight up so she told me to send in my papers elsewhere... :rolleyes:

Aemma
12-08-2009, 06:23 AM
Affirmative Action is alive and well here and we're actually taught about it alot in class. I can't get a job with Peel Regional Police (was my first choice) because I am the wrong skin colour and the wrong sex, and my instructor told me this straight up so she told me to send in my papers elsewhere... :rolleyes:

:mad:

ikki
12-08-2009, 06:39 AM
It was never intended to adress wrongs, only to push whities out. The wrongs etc was nothing but absolute nonsense, sugarcoated hatred of whiteskins.

SuuT
12-08-2009, 01:33 PM
Affirmative Action began 'benignly' enough. However, as with all things that are irrational to begin with (the remedy to systematic and systemic discrimination cannot be a greater systematic and systemic discrimination), the fruits of such a labour will be - and are - bitter, indeed.

The salient problem with such a device is that people are not, at bottom, driven by moral imperatives and/or constructs; they are driven by all things that can and will advance themselves and their group(s) to which they self-identify. So, from that axiom, it stands to reason that the device of Affirmative Action, itself, becomes a re-ordering tool of the existing social structure: The powers that be become the old, and new Orders are established that, themselves, build, refine and enforce a novel modus operandi of discrimination. This, of course, is a very cold and heartless view; but, ultimately so is all truth that goes unmuddled by sentiment. So, in short, per se (and pejorative) discrimination is in no way diminished - indeed, in the effort to systemitise the goal of eliminating discrimination, discriminatory acts become even more refined, solidified and rationalised as a means to the end that is Power. This illusory act, this 'in the name of the good' that is the bluntest moral tool ever devised, only brings about 'good' as it is understood by the new Power elite: Thus, justice is made.

Affirmative Action, at bottom, is ridiculous:

"Here, formerly discriminated against person! Here is some favouritism and special treatment! However, we will be needing that back once everything is equal."

"Thank you sir! I'll be sure to let you know when that is..."

Poltergeist
12-08-2009, 02:05 PM
Affirmative action aka positive discrimination (as it is sometimes called) is wrong in any form it may appear. It runs counter to the basic principle that personal merit and personal qualities should be of tantamount importance is someone's assignment to certain job, whether it be in the public or in the private sphere.

Lulletje Rozewater
12-08-2009, 02:21 PM
Affirmative action (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action) has long been touted as a reasonable scheme to redress some issues involving past problems with systemic discrimination based on a plethora of what I will uncharitably and unPC-ly call 'otherness factors', such as race and gender being the big two.

The question is simple: Do you think that such laws, which have been in effect for a good many decades now, have outlived their usefulness in our present day? Please elaborate your answer as well.

Thank you! :)

Affirmative action breeds inferior work by inferior people for inferior politicians.

la bombe
12-08-2009, 03:19 PM
It runs counter to the basic principle that personal merit and personal qualities should be of tantamount importance is someone's assignment to certain job, whether it be in the public or in the private sphere.

That's really not the case in societies where certain groups have have historically faced discrimination by their own government and have been systematically denied certain legal rights.

However, my problem with affirmative action policies is that they fail to address the root cause of WHY these things have happened, or remedy the situation in any meaningful way. It's sort of like trying to stick a band aid on an amputee.

Electronic God-Man
12-08-2009, 03:31 PM
That's really not the case in societies where certain groups have have historically faced discrimination by their own government and have been systematically denied certain legal rights.

Oh interesting, so since here in the US Blacks were discriminated against in the past it is not the case that hiring someone based on their race "runs counter to the basic principle that personal merit and personal qualities should be of tantamount importance in someone's assignment to a certain job, whether it be in the public or in the private sphere"? :)

Cato
12-08-2009, 03:44 PM
Let each stand on his or her own two feet and according to his or her own abilities. Attempting, politically, to even the playing field of life isn't natural but a disaster.

Electronic God-Man
12-08-2009, 03:48 PM
Affirmative Action only achieves increasing race consciousness and making working class Whites bitter that they are passed over for minorities.

Cato
12-08-2009, 03:56 PM
The useful members of society are passed over in favor of the useless.

Liffrea
12-08-2009, 04:15 PM
If we allow people “equality” we inevitably beget hierarchy, such is the reality of human existence….of course opportunity, which is what equality really boils down to, is just as much the opportunity to stab someone in the neck than it is to stand equal before a judge….

Hierarchy, or elitism, is the pet hate of “progressives”.

For the people who institute these policies this is less about race than it is about denying the above reality....a reality they themselves have usually benefited from.

Rusalka
12-08-2009, 05:14 PM
Affirmative Action only achieves increasing race consciousness and making working class Whites bitter that they are passed over for minorities.

Indeed, and as affirmative action is not really an equalizer but an artificial stunt, people will have to stand it forever because the moment it is removed, everything goes back to what it used to be. Has anyone wondered when will society be ripe for the removal of affirmative action? Most likely, never. Such a programme paints a false reality: it wants to make people believe that life in college/work environments is a copy of what reality is like outside those institutions.

Worse, even, it teaches minorities that, if they exploit their condition well enough, they might get what they want. Whites or other "privileged" entities learn that making an effort is not really worth it since it doesn't count.

Minorities with a ticket to easy benefits are like the Middle East: they happen to be sitting on top of a enormous lake of oil. But they did not acquire them through work but rather by chance, at birth. Thus they may lack the mentality one acquieres through the process of getting somewhere.. And just like with the ME, you know everything will descend into anarchy once the oil wells run dry.

Cato
12-09-2009, 02:47 AM
The industrious Goddess hasn't taught me to be slavish but self-reliant. When times are tough I rely on my family not on a handout from the state. I work for a living, following the example of my family- all hardworkers for as far back as I can remember. There was a low point in my life when I was an out-of-work depressed slob; I look back at this time with some shame, not a lot, but enough to make me never want to return to that idle lifestyle again. That's what socially-engineered people are, be they affirmative action junkies or welfare scum, idlers of no use. The amazing power of my own will took me out of that sort of existence- and I don't have anyone to thank for it except me, myself and I.

Lulletje Rozewater
12-09-2009, 04:55 AM
AA South African style

Mamphela Ramphele’s attempt to give the so-called employment equity system some credibility should be deemed a failure.
The damage has already been done and the civil service, public healthcare, the railways, ports and road infrastructure bear testimony to the insidious effects of racial preference on South Africa.
The current system of race preferences in favour of blacks cannot be reformed—it can only be abolished.
Employment equity is but an Orwellian euphemism denying whites employment, as well as educational and business opportunities, on the grounds of race.
The ANC may be more subtle than Zanu-PF, but the ultimate goal is the same—getting rid of whites altogether. Most whites, English and Afrikaans, have seen the writing on the wall.
They have either left the country or have become self-employed, waging a constant struggle for survival in small businesses run from homes and garages without pension schemes, medical aid or access to capital, which is largely reserved for blacks.
According to economist Mike Schussler, 50% of all white males are self-employed. It is a staggering statistic.
Not only are whites made to feel distinctly unwelcome at government departments, but banks and other private institutions have also transformed to the extent that one hardly sees a white face behind a counter. In fact, we would need an affirmative action policy for whites just to persuade large corporations to employ them at all, especially young ones, given the anti-white ethos that oozes from the very pores of this amazingly violent, corrupt society.
Whites lacking in entrepreneurial and technical skills have been condemned to poverty and despair, despite being literate and hard-working.
On the other hand, one-third of all municipal councillors controlling budgets in the billions are illiterate.
To create wealth, one needs skills.
To loot the wealth of others does not require any skill, except being ruthless and arrogant.
The race-proud Africans of Zimbabwe and South Africa have shown themselves to possess an abundant capacity for both.

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2008/09/affirmative_act_15.php

Cato
12-09-2009, 05:34 AM
And it's not as if the bongoids of South Africa haven't had a chance to shape their act up and learn some useful skills except looting and political panhandling.

It's not as if blacks are dumb and stupid by nature- I work with a very articulate black guy who works his ass off, is an MBA (but down on his luck and is working at Suckmart), and generally makes a lot of the white trash/whiggers and ghetto blacks that I see look, well, like white trash/whiggers and ghetto blacks.

It's easy to give simply give the masses a handout, especially if they're in the other category, and not expect anything from them. This lack of expectation is one of the things that feeds colored criminality and I'm pretty certain that these race-betraying white politicians know this. They just don't care of course, since they've got a diseased agenda.

Fortis in Arduis
12-09-2009, 07:56 AM
I tend to avoid services run by the local council here, so that I can avoid affirmative action environments, and the cloying retardation that they engender.

That means that the public library, the local swimming pool, and the JobCentre are out of bounds for me. All very unpleasant places to be.

SwordoftheVistula
12-11-2009, 08:16 AM
I don't think it was ever justified, and whatever justifications people applied to it have certainly expired after 2 generations.

The 'class' problem probably won't ever be solved, but affirmative action makes it worse. In academia, it redirects scholarship money that might have enabled a more qualified white person to attend that school. In the workplace, it has forced much of the hiring process 'underground'. Aside from bottom rung jobs, most hiring is no longer done by 'have everyone send in resumes and pick the one that looks best', because this can be subject to discrimmination claims, but instead through informal 'networking' processes. People can't claim discrimmination for not being hired for positions they never knew about. Likewise, many places no longer 'promote from within', to avoid the chance of "why was that person picked instead of me, must be because I'm black, I'm filing a lawsuit". These practices aren't entirely the fault of affirmative action and employment 'discrimmination' laws, but they certainly haven't helped the situation.


It's not as if blacks are dumb and stupid by nature- I work with a very articulate black guy who works his ass off, is an MBA (but down on his luck and is working at Suckmart), and generally makes a lot of the white trash/whiggers and ghetto blacks that I see look, well, like white trash/whiggers and ghetto blacks.

You can't judge the rule by the exception to the rule. For example, there have been some excellent white NBA players, but most people would acknowledge that blacks are more likely to posess the abilities to succeed.

Cato
12-12-2009, 02:57 AM
You can't judge the rule by the exception to the rule. For example, there have been some excellent white NBA players, but most people would acknowledge that blacks are more likely to posess the abilities to succeed.

Which I don't dispute. My black co-worker is a cut above the rest to be quite honest. He's got an MBA, does kendo, is a really good cook and is well-versed in things that I only thought I'd appreciate (history being one of them).

SuuT
12-14-2009, 08:13 PM
Affirmative Action only achieves increasing race consciousness ...

There's the upside.

Lahtari
12-14-2009, 10:17 PM
What SuuT said:


the remedy to systematic and systemic discrimination cannot be a greater systematic and systemic discrimination

"Fighting fire with fire" doesn't work everywhere - especially when the other "fire" is hardly more than a conspiracy theory and the other one is wielded by a government office trying to manage whole layers of society by blindly following an arbitrary set of rules. :viking

Furthermore, I refuse to call the procedure of taking my job, studying place and tax money and giving them to someone else just because of my skin color or sex as "positive". It is, simply and plainly, discrimination.

Lahtari
12-14-2009, 10:19 PM
AA South African style

According to economist Mike Schussler, 50% of all white males are self-employed. It is a staggering statistic.

This fact itself bears a testimony of the reasons why white males have been known as the "privileged" class..

Lulletje Rozewater
12-20-2009, 01:42 PM
This fact itself bears a testimony of the reasons why white males have been known as the "privileged" class..

In nature there is a rule:Adapt or Die.

nisse
12-20-2009, 02:02 PM
We don't really live in nature anymore.

I think affirmative action made some sense at the very start. For example, women were not found in my discipline until the 50s/60s and I am sure it must have been very hard for the very first few to get in - the administration no doubt did not want the extra hassle...Even the infrastructure has to be changedto accomodate 2 genders: older buildings on campus have only one washroom/floor and even the women's ones have urinals, which they never took out from the olddays when all washrooms were men's washrooms.

But that was ages ago. I don't think anyone would even consider not admitting someone to school or not giving someone a job just bacause of their sex or race at present...unless they are forced to do so becasue they've got affirmative action quotas to fill :rolleyes:....

Bobby Martnen
10-02-2018, 07:26 AM
Affirmative action was never useful in the first place, just like OP.

Dinesh D'Souza breaks it down


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR2QAFZcSfs