Are Montenegrins traitors?

[DeaththeKid]

It seems kind of stupid for a "nation" of six hundred thousand to split up from Serbia. All it accomplished was making Serbia landlocked which is obviously part of the Western agenda to punish and weaken it. Some people on this forum say Macedonians are confused Bulgarians but there is a far greater difference between Macedonia and Bulgaria then there is between Serbia and Montenegro.

[ChocolateFace]

They are traitors for going against their Albanian blood brothers. If it wasn't for the Albos of Montenegro in the tally the country would have never succeeded from Serbia.

[Skerdilaid]

Ki karda manchot?

[Loki]

Montenegrins are essentially Slavicized Albanians.

[DeaththeKid]

Montenegrins are essentially Slavicized Albanians.

Interesting

[Sisak]

Russian traveler and royal scriber P.A, Tolstoy writes that Serbs camefrom Turkey (Serbia) fleeing to Montenegro among Croats and Albanians, the first, Tolstoy compares Serbs with kazachs, but dresses in Croatian costumes. In Montenegro, at that time there were Russian diplomats says Croats were inhabited the coast and the hills.

[Loki]

Interesting

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII12.htm

The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a barren limestone mountain upland, where they, for centuries, succeeded in maintaining their Christianity and their freedom while surrounded by the Turks. They, like the northern Albanians, preserve their old exogamous clan organization, and their clan loyalties and feuds. They are linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians.

[Sorab]

It seems kind of stupid for a "nation" of six hundred thousand to split up from Serbia. All it accomplished was making Serbia landlocked which is obviously part of the Western agenda to punish and weaken it. Some people on this forum say Macedonians are confused Bulgarians but there is a far greater difference between Macedonia and Bulgaria then there is between Serbia and Montenegro.
.In a hypothetical scenario...If Serbs from Montenegro unite and remove the marionette government installed by foreign powers it will reunite with Serbia once more .But nothing is certain and i expect very turbulent situation facing Montenegro in the future .West will certainly use Montengrin Albanians ,Muslims as parts of newly proclaimed fake nation of Montenegro (Dukljani ) as a distabilising factor once more .

[Loki]

.In a hypothetical scenario...If Serbs from Montenegro unite and remove the marionette government installed by foreign powers it will reunite with Serbia once more .But nothing is certain and i expect very turbulent situation facing Montenegro in the future .West will certainly use Montengrin Albanians ,Muslims as parts of newly proclaimed fake nation of Montenegro (Dukljani ) as a distabilising factor once more .

Why on earth would they want to do that? Serbia is a pariah country because of its unwillingness to own up to its war crimes.

[RandoBloom]

It seems kind of stupid for a "nation" of six hundred thousand to split up from Serbia. All it accomplished was making Serbia landlocked which is obviously part of the Western agenda to punish and weaken it. Some people on this forum say Macedonians are confused Bulgarians but there is a far greater difference between Macedonia and Bulgaria then there is between Serbia and Montenegro.

Seems stupid? Ever since they became independent they are gliding and succeding Economicaly. Weaken it? You are saying that Serbia with seacost can threaten the world :laugh:
You have a severe case of Serbism

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Montenegrins are essentially Slavicized Albanians.

Phenotype, stature, behavior, some traditions, and history makes obvious they are Albanians in denial for most of the part.

[Chieftain]

Phenotype, stature, behavior, some traditions, and history makes obvious they are Albanians in denial for most of the part.

Not entirely, I believe that Montenegrins do have actually partially slavic blood, which may vary from a lot to a certain individual to none/unexistant in some, which happen to be considerable in number.

But slavs have always had the habbit of assimiliating other populations in close proximity, be them in this case the Illyrians in modern day Montenegro, plus let us not forget that there were practically no serbs in Montenegro before the forming of Yugoslavia, the Serbs today were just settlers brought by Serbia there.

A fine example of this is Marko Miljanov, probably the most known Montenegrin after Knjaz Nikolla, hailing from the highlands tribes that now serbs call 'Brda' clan of Kuci which I believe is completely albanian in blood but culturally slavicized:

Marko was born into a distinguished family in the village of Medun of the Kuči clan (in present-day Podgorica municipality, Montenegro), which at the time was independent from the Ottoman Empire as well as the direct rule of Petar II Petrović-Njegoš. He had a Montenegrin, Orthodox Christian father and an Albanian, Roman Catholic mother.

[Trun]

Some people on this forum say Macedonians are confused Bulgarians but there is a far greater difference between Macedonia and Bulgaria then there is between Serbia and Montenegro.

Really?

Montenegrins have had their own country and identity for quite longer than Macedonians. They might be a subgroup of Serbs but they are further away from other Serbs than Macedonians from the rest of Bulgarians.

[Hevo]

Montenegrins are essentially Slavicized Albanians.

Genetically Montenegrins cluster with other South-Slavic nations like Serbia according to MDLP calculator:



[1,] "Montenegrin" "0"
[2,] "Macedonian" "2.5239"
[3,] "Serbian" "4.0768"
[4,] "Bulgarian" "4.7529"
[5,] "Romania" "7.7576"
[6,] "Gagauz" "8.3504"
[7,] "German-South" "8.3714"
[8,] "Swiss" "9.3236"
[9,] "Italian_North" "10.3913"
[10,] "Bosnian" "10.6658"
[11,] "Provancal" "11.7712"
[12,] "Austrian" "12.302"
[13,] "German_V" "12.4511"
[14,] "Croatian" "12.4547"
[15,] "Hungarian" "12.7617"
[16,] "French" "12.8907"
[17,] "CEU" "14.2717"
[18,] "British" "14.4772"
[19,] "CEU_V" "14.5086"
[20,] "Slovenian" "15.5203"
[21,] "Welsh" "15.556"
[22,] "Orcadian" "16.3814"
[23,] "German" "16.9723"
[24,] "Norwegian_V" "17.8723"
[25,] "Italian-North" "17.9469"
[26,] "German-North" "18.0211"
[27,] "Ashkenazim_V" "18.1"
[28,] "Croatian_V" "18.2551"
[29,] "Portugese" "19.0421"
[30,] "Swedish" "19.6094"
[31,] "Czech" "19.7669"
[32,] "Spaniard" "19.8252"
[33,] "Iberian" "19.9387"
[34,] "Kosovar" "20.1668"
[35,] "Corsican" "21.1686"
[36,] "Slovakian" "21.5265"
[37,] "Swedish_V" "22.435"
[38,] "Greek_Center" "23.8168"
[39,] "Colville" "23.9719"
[40,] "Latvian_V" "24.1998"
[41,] "Puerto-Rican" "25.4629"
[42,] "Ukrainian-West" "25.9692"
[43,] "Tatar_Kryashen" "26.3004"
[44,] "Italian-Center" "26.338"

[Loki]

^ Interesting Hevo

[Loki]

Genetically Montenegrins cluster with other South-Slavic nations like Serbia according to MDLP calculator:

Bear in mind that even Serbs are partially Slavicized Illyrians. Especially Bosnians.

[DeaththeKid]

Seems stupid? Ever since they became independent they are gliding and succeding Economicaly. Weaken it? You are saying that Serbia with seacost can threaten the world :laugh:
You have a severe case of Serbism

I never said Serbia with a sea coast can threaten the world. The West just likes harming Serbia to poke at Russia. And whatever you say the fact that they lost six hundred thousand people plus their sea coast does do them harm and does weaken them economically. I'm not saying Serbia with Montenegro would be a great power but it would be at least a little bit economically stronger. All nations desire a coast if they can get it just look at Bosnia with their little corridor through Croatia. And remember the Polish Corridor.

[Raikaswinþs]

I think there are not enough states in the Balcans. 4 or 5 more would be fine.

[Peyrol]

Genetically Montenegrins cluster with other South-Slavic nations like Serbia according to MDLP calculator:

Interesting the ''north italian'' match...probabily venetian, since Montenegro was a venetian colony and the same name is from the venetian word for ''black mountain''.

[Hevo]

Bear in mind that even Serbs are partially Slavicized Illyrians. Especially Bosnians.

Aye and unfortunately only the MDLP calculator has Montenegrin samples and not more up to date calculators like Eurogenes Eutest K13/V2 etc.:/ But it's still interesting.

[La Misse]

Montenegrins are like Ghegs, some of the tallest people in Europe. Serbs are not as tall like them, they have gheg blood :D

[Windischer]

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII12.htm

The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a barren limestone mountain upland

i think most mountain niggers live on the coast and in valleys

[Windischer]

I never said Serbia with a sea coast can threaten the world. The West just likes harming Serbia to poke at Russia. And whatever you say the fact that they lost six hundred thousand people plus their sea coast does do them harm and does weaken them economically. I'm not saying Serbia with Montenegro would be a great power but it would be at least a little bit economically stronger. All nations desire a coast if they can get it just look at Bosnia with their little corridor through Croatia. And remember the Polish Corridor.

serbian politicians in 1990s did more harm to serbia than whole west combined.
nationalism and warmongering, hyperinflation, etc.

[DeaththeKid]

serbian politicians in 1990s did more harm to serbia than whole west combined.
nationalism and warmongering, hyperinflation, etc.

Even if that is true does that mean they should lose chunks of their territory?

[Windischer]

Even if that is true does that mean they should lose chunks of their territory?

they wanted to secede and they did. now they have their own mafia state. belgrade politicians have their own mafia state. kosovan alboz have theirs etc.

[DeaththeKid]

they wanted to secede and they did. now they have their own mafia state. belgrade politicians have their own mafia state. kosovan alboz have theirs etc.

The West bankrolled and encouraged the independence movement. Heck they probably even rigged the referendum.

[Windischer]

The West bankrolled and encouraged the independence movement. Heck they probably even rigged the referendum.

lol yes its all conspiracy against one failed balkan state. lol

[RandoBloom]

I never said Serbia with a sea coast can threaten the world. The West just likes harming Serbia to poke at Russia. And whatever you say the fact that they lost six hundred thousand people plus their sea coast does do them harm and does weaken them economically. I'm not saying Serbia with Montenegro would be a great power but it would be at least a little bit economically stronger. All nations desire a coast if they can get it just look at Bosnia with their little corridor through Croatia. And remember the Polish Corridor.

No. Serbia think it is still 17th century and that they can kill and exterminate at will, as well as use the non-Serbs to pay for that.
Montenegro was giving all of its money to Serbia for no return. That is the reason for secesion. Not to mention that Montenegrins had their catharsis and now no one has a problem with them, and they dont want to stagnate economicaly and stay with a backward abusive nation using the wealth of Montenegro.
Look at Montenegro since independence. Economy is booming, unemployment is down, it became a tourist attraction, it has great relations with all its neighbors and isnt warmongering about anything.


Bear in mind that even Serbs are partially Slavicized Illyrians. Especially Bosnians.

Bosnian Serbs are from Montengro and Kosovo and came with Turks, but they are mixed with Turks, to a lesser extent than Serbian Serbs but still mixed.
But due to their slavic origins they cant be Illyrians in any regards.

[Insuperable]

Bear in mind that even Serbs are partially Slavicized Illyrians. Especially Bosnians.

Genetically Serbs (especially Montenegrins) would be closer to Illyrians than Bosnians. Bosnians on 23andme plot more northern than majority of southern Slavs (who in return plot more northern than Albanians and Greeks) with some exception on every side of course. I have one on my 23andme list whos dot on a plot is located more to the (northern half though) east than the majority of other Balkanians on my list. Btw look at Gospodine's results (Ukrainian often comes among top Oracle results). I don't know where are you getting this. Please don't tell me there were northern I2 Illyrians who were closer to Ukrainians and southern E-V13 ones closer to Greeks.

[RandoBloom]

Genetically Serbs (especially Montenegrins) would be closer to Illyrians than Bosnians. Bosnians on 23andme plot more northern than majority of southern Slavs (who in return plot more northern than Albanians and Greeks) with some exception on every side of course. I have one on my 23andme list whos dot on a plot is located more to the (northern half though) east than the majority of other Balkanians on my list. Btw look at Gospodine's results (Ukrainian often comes among top Oracle results). I don't know where are you getting this. Please don't tell me there were northern I2 Illyrians who were closer to Ukrainians ans southern E-V13 ones closer to Greeka.

Why not? Greeks never reacher northern Illyrian domains, apart from some seacoast colonies.
On the other hand, Dacians, Thracians, Bastarnae, Celts and others reacher the northern parts while not reaching the soughern one.

[Insuperable]

Why not? Greeks never reacher northern Illyrian domains, apart from some seacoast colonies.
On the other hand, Dacians, Thracians, Bastarnae, Celts and others reacher the northern parts while not reaching the soughern one.

Because neither Dacians nor Thracians and especially Celts would be that "eastern" besides less northern part especially since analysis of Iron age Thracians indicates they were too southern genetically.

[RandoBloom]

Because neither Dacians nor Thracians and especially Celts would be that "eastern" besides less northern part especially since analysis of Iron age Thracians indicates they were too southern genetically.

And how exactly are Bosniaks eastern?

[KrashNick]

Vukadov is a good example of Slavicized Albo ;)

[Peyrol]

Montenegrins aren't only ''serbs and albanians''...there were more than 20,000 venetian settlers in the region, they would have definitely left some blood

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Repubblica_di_Venezia.png

[Insuperable]

And how exactly are Bosniaks eastern?

Too eastern as in Slavic and/or eastern European over Balkan to be considered pure native

[RandoBloom]

Too eastern as in Slavic and/or eastern European over Balkan to be considered pure native

Their genetic is native to the Balkan as oposed to slavic eastern genes carried by Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians etc..
Simply being blonde, and pale doesnt make someone non-balkan

[Insuperable]

Their genetic is native to the Balkan as oposed to slavic eastern genes carried by Russians, Ukrainians, Belarussians etc..
Simply being blonde, and pale doesnt make someone non-balkan

But based on several results I have seen they are closer to Ukrainians and such than to native Balkanians and that is what I am telling you stubborn guy who speaks out of ass. I know that if I ask you to show me data you base your judgement on you will show me haplogroup frequencies since that is only know you know to speak about and that is not a good indicator of ancestry since y-dna haplogroups make 1% of your autosomal dna so autosomal results is what is important nor is specific clade of Dinaric I2 native to Balkans (and even if it is that is not important because autosomal dna is the most important).

[Sorab]

Bosnian Serbs are from Montengro and Kosovo and came with Turks, but they are mixed with Turks, to a lesser extent than Serbian Serbs but still mixed.
But due to their slavic origins they cant be Illyrians in any regards.
You are a boring Bosnian propagandist and a liar.
Neither Bosnian or Serbian Serbs are mixed with Turks .In fact the most depigmented Serbian population lives in rural areas ruled by Ottomans for longest (and representative of Turkish authorities here were mostly islamized Balkan-Helm folks ) .Serbs were separated from the ottomans by religion keeping us preserved .The same cannot be said for islamized city dwellers that were left after the liberation from the Ottomans .If one can see MENA and north African features more "often " among Yugoslavs its the Bosniaks ive encountered and seen IRL .Especially in places like Rožaje ,Sarajevo etc .
I see Albanians like to claim Montenegrins as their own but in reality they are much taller and more robust than Albos .Such Albos are mostly Albanised Serbs .

[Leopard]

@Solin

We here don't care about entire genome,but only part which is indicator of migrations and that's primarly y-dna,and then mtdna.
Bosniaks are indeed native to SE Europe,and they are genetically one of the most paleolithic Europeans (50%I2).
Are you people aware that these little amateurish atdna projects from amateur blogs are not used in real science?
And that only y-dna is used in real science?
atdna can be used only for individuals-not for populations.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Genetically Montenegrins cluster with other South-Slavic nations like Serbia according to MDLP calculator:

Just for emphasis because I hear this stupidity repeated again and again and again on this forum. Though it's bit curious to me why Macedonians are closer than Serbians. Perhaps more testing needs to be done on either Montenegrins, Serbs or Macedonians. One things for sure, "Kosovars" (Gheg Kosovar Albanians) are way way way off. On average the only Albanians who resemble Serbian Montenegrins are those from far north. And that's due to historical intermixing. Whereas the rest of Albanians not so much at all. Anywhere you go in Serbia, there is not big difference between Montenegrins and Serbs except Montenegrins are maybe slightly more dinaric version.



[1,] "Montenegrin" "0"

…

[2,] "Macedonian" "2.5239"

…

[3,] "Serbian" "4.0768"
[4,] "Bulgarian" "4.7529"

…

[10,] "Bosnian" "10.6658"

…

[14,] "Croatian" "12.4547"

…

[24,] "Norwegian_V" "17.8723"

…

[34,] "Kosovar" "20.1668"

[Stefan_Dusan]

@Solin

We here don't care about entire genome,but only part which is indicator of migrations and that's primarly y-dna,and then mtdna.
Bosniaks are indeed native to SE Europe,and they are genetically one of the most paleolithic Europeans (50%I2).
Are you people aware that these little amateurish atdna projects from amateur blogs are not used in real science?
And that only y-dna is used in real science?
atdna can be used only for individuals-not for populations.

Y-DNA only can explain origin of your surname. It can not explain your entire genetics. If I take African wife, my son will have my paternal haplogroup. Obviously he will be genetically foreign to the Balkans or even entire Europe. This is such blinding common sense I don't know why I have to explain it.

And no one knows if the dinaric subclade is originally from the Balkans or brought in by waves of other people from Eastern Europe. There is evidence for both.

[Stefan_Dusan]

It seems kind of stupid for a "nation" of six hundred thousand to split up from Serbia. All it accomplished was making Serbia landlocked which is obviously part of the Western agenda to punish and weaken it. Some people on this forum say Macedonians are confused Bulgarians but there is a far greater difference between Macedonia and Bulgaria then there is between Serbia and Montenegro.

They never split from Serbia but Yugoslavia. Montenegro was independent republic as was Serbia. Due to problems with Yugoslavia, and generous money from West, Montenegro politicians pushed the referendum hard. Even so only 55% of people voted for it, and that was due to Albanian, Bosniak, and Croatian minorities in Montenegro.

In the Balkans, Serbia and Montenegro have very good relations. I can travel there from Serbia without a passport. The ease of going into Montenegro from Serbia is easier than from Kosovo to Albania. Also no friendlier people to Serbs than Montenegrins except for maybe RS entity in Bosnia.

[Chieftain]

You are a boring Bosnian propagandist and a liar.

I see Albanians like to claim Montenegrins as their own but in reality they are much taller and more robust than Albos .Such Albos are mostly Albanised Serbs .

No one claims them or anything, but one thing is undeniable and that is that even if they are serbs as you say, they have a good proportion of albanian blood, so it's quite the contrary as Montenegrins are intermixed with Ghegs if not them being one themselves, as our set book of laws(Kanuni) banished individuals when mixed with slavs, turks or gypsies, such individuals were thrown out of the land and were now recognized as foreigners.

'Albanised Serbs' is an oxymoron I believe, as the highlanders from the North(I am one robust, tall light featured one) look exactly like the ones in Kosovo, as one can pick these so called 'albanised serbs' from a mile easily from other slavs, they show genetic proximity only to their brothers in Kosovo.

I am not claiming that all Montenegrins are slavicized albanians, but the striking similiarity in some habits, facial measurment, traditional clothes and traditions gives an outsider a hint of similiarity between Gheg Albanians and Montenegrins, whilst in these characteristics they change a lot from serbs/other slavs, plus these 'albanised serbs' ghegs score the least slavic genetic similiarity amongst all albanians, they have a very distant look.

If you want an example of this, look at Marko Miljanov who was born to a Montenegrin father and an Albanian mother, both from highlands clans.

As a result I believe them to be a mix of Illyrians, Slavs with obvious Vlachic and Venetian influence or in other words a mix of albanians, serbs, vlachs and ancient venetian settlers.

[Stefan_Dusan]

No one claims them or anything, but one thing is undeniable and that is that even if they are serbs as you say, they have a good proportion of albanian blood, so it's quite the contrary as Montenegrins are intermixed with Ghegs if not them being one themselves, as our set book of laws(Kanuni) banished individuals when mixed with slavs, turks or gypsies, such individuals were thrown out of the land and were now recognized as foreigners.

Which Kanun are you talking about? Leka's kanun does not even mention slavs, turks, or gypsies even once in entire tradition, and this is most famous kanun.


'Albanised Serbs' is an oxymoron I believe, as the highlanders from the North(I am one robust, tall light featured one) look exactly like the ones in Kosovo, as one can pick these so called 'albanised serbs' from a mile easily from other slavs, they show genetic proximity only to their brothers in Kosovo.

Find me such study.


If you want an example of this, look at Marko Miljanov who was born to a Montenegrin father and an Albanian mother, both from highlands clans.

He was to Serbian father and Miljanov identified as Serbian. Back then female heritage was not transported like female name or inheritance.

Dear Serb brother, if you had the chance to see the heroes that I have seen, your heart would give you no peace until you have responded to the heroes who die merrily for their own and rights of all of us. - Miljanov


As a result I believe them to be a mix of Illyrians, Slavs with obvious Vlachic and Venetian influence or in other words a mix of albanians, serbs, vlachs and ancient venetian settlers.

They are Serbians mixed with Croatians in north-western regions and albanians in eastern regions. But overall Serbs. Maybe Italians on the coast. Aromanians and Illyrians are pretty much extinct people.

[Hevo]

Just for emphasis because I hear this stupidity repeated again and again and again on this forum. Though it's bit curious to me why Macedonians are closer than Serbians. Perhaps more testing needs to be done on either Montenegrins, Serbs or Macedonians. One things for sure, "Kosovars" (Gheg Kosovar Albanians) are way way way off. On average the only Albanians who resemble Serbian Montenegrins are those from far north. And that's due to historical intermixing. Whereas the rest of Albanians not so much at all. Anywhere you go in Serbia, there is not big difference between Montenegrins and Serbs except Montenegrins are maybe slightly more dinaric version.

I agree, MDLP calculators are not perfect but it shows that Montenegrins and Kosovar Albanians cluster far from each other.(20.+ distance is almost irrelevant)

[Chieftain]

Which Kanun are you talking about? Leka's kanun does not even mention slavs, turks, or gypsies even once in entire tradition, and this is most famous kanun.



Find me such study.



He was to Serbian father and Miljanov identified as Serbian. Back then female heritage was not transported like female name or inheritance.

Dear Serb brother, if you had the chance to see the heroes that I have seen, your heart would give you no peace until you have responded to the heroes who die merrily for their own and rights of all of us. - Miljanov



They are Serbians mixed with Croatians in north-western regions and albanians in eastern regions. But overall Serbs. Maybe Italians on the coast. Aromanians and Illyrians are pretty much extinct people.


Ghegs from where I come from descend from 12 tribes(Shkrel, Kastrat, Kelmend, Hoti, Gashi, Bytyci, Krasniqi, Koja e Kuçit, Pali i Bardhe being the most famous/numerous) and we form the core of North-Western Albania, we do not obey the Kanun of Leke(that is for the region of Dukagjini) and that's why it's called the Kanun of Leke Dukagjini and our own Kanun is called Kanuni Maleve(Highlands LKnun) and it is written in the third chapter(point 53 in the heritage/racial laws) of it that intermixing with gypsies, turks and slavs is forbidden and cursed both by the population, God and the Catholic church(we're the bulk of Catholics in Albania).


Now I am aware that amnogst slavs the motherline was not important/acknowledged and that individuals identified with the fatherline always, but tell me: Can a british born englishman identify as English when his mother is Nigerian or Pakistani?

My point was that even whilst some montenegrins might be derived from slavs(I don't jump around saying that all are slavicized albanians) some are derived from Albanians and a good proportion of them has our blood, even though not in the fatherline.

Just wanted to say that R1a is less than 3% amongst my people which is the lowest in Albania as you might find more slavs in Southern Albania than here lol, they have even no cultural/traditional link to slavs or serbs..so the albanised serbs dream is just a dream my friend :)

Overall I agree that they're a mix of albanians, slavs and maybe ancient venetian settlers. but denying that they are mixed with albanians and they have nothing to do with them is quite strange if you consider their close proximity and that albanians have always been a quite considerable part of that country(over 5% of the population now, but due to large immigration/assimilation it surely has been higher in the past.)

[Black Wolf]

Montenegrins are essentially Slavicized Albanians.

That is true I believe.

[Stefan_Dusan]

That is true I believe.

On what basis do you believe it when Kosovar Albanians score farther to them than Norwegians?

[Black Wolf]

On what basis do you believe it when Kosovar Albanians score farther to them than Norwegians?

Hmmm interesting I did not know that. You mean genetically of course right? It could be because Kosovar Albanians have been isolated from other Balkan groups genetically. I read before that Montenegrins are essentially Albanians who have adopted or assimilated aspects of South Slavic culture.

[safinator]

On what basis do you believe it when Kosovar Albanians score farther to them than Norwegians?

MDLP is an amateur project, besides assimilation and migrations are always tracked down by Y-DNA frequencies and never by autosomal, in fact even MTdna isn't taken into account considering migrations!

[Stefan_Dusan]

Hmmm interesting I did not know that. You mean genetically of course right? It could be because Kosovar Albanians have been isolated from other Balkan groups genetically. I read before that Montenegrins are essentially Albanians who have adopted or assimilated aspects of South Slavic culture.

Where did you read that Coon? And yes, genetically. Kosovar Albanians score tightly with other Albanians, so if Montenegrins are just Albanians pretending to be Serbians/slavs you'd expect the same result. And what cultural practices do Montenegrins do that are not part of south slavic culture elsewhere?

[Stefan_Dusan]

MDLP is an amateur project, besides assimilation and migrations are always tracked down by Y-DNA frequencies and never by autosomal, in fact even MTdna isn't taken into account considering migrations!

Y-DNA just is small percentage of your overall DNA. I gave the example of me taking Black wife. You can even extend it down the line: my half black son taking another black wife, so on for many generations. Then my 99.9999% Black something generation grandson will still have my same haplogroup. And who says EV-13 is Albanian anyway? It's just a haplogroup that existed before Albanians existed as an ethnicity.

While MLDP is not perfect, I think the results stand for themselves.

[Insuperable]

@Solin

We here don't care about entire genome,but only part which is indicator of migrations and that's primarly y-dna,and then mtdna.
Bosniaks are indeed native to SE Europe,and they are genetically one of the most paleolithic Europeans (50%I2).
Are you people aware that these little amateurish atdna projects from amateur blogs are not used in real science?
And that only y-dna is used in real science?
atdna can be used only for individuals-not for populations.

:clap:
So many fucking ignorant people on TA. There is no reason to even discuss anything with you.

[cally]

I have south slavic cousins who plot further away from me so I don't think you can determine ancestry from where you plot.
There is a tosk albanian who plots with Bulgarians also

[cally]

These gedmatch calculators give me 20+ distance too for "Kosovar"

[Stefan_Dusan]

I have south slavic cousins who plot further away from me so I don't think you can determine ancestry from where you plot.
There is a tosk albanian who plots with Bulgarians also

No that can make sense. For example, if I have a cousin who is also half black (say half Serbian) he will plot far from me due to the black side even though we share some DNA exactly. Really our DNA we share is not enough to bridge the gap of his black side which is dramatically pulling him away. Across all DNA he is farther. And that makes sense. Lookwise he is also farther, he will look half Black. Whereas another Serbian, not even related to me, will look closer.

[Black Wolf]

Where did you read that Coon? And yes, genetically. Kosovar Albanians score tightly with other Albanians, so if Montenegrins are just Albanians pretending to be Serbians/slavs you'd expect the same result. And what cultural practices do Montenegrins do that are not part of south slavic culture elsewhere?

Actually yes I did read it in Coon's book The Races of Europe. I know it is old but some of his observations have been proven by genetics and some has been disproven. I never said that Montenegrins do not practice non-Slavic culture. I said basically if they are indeed Slavicized Albanians then they have adopted Slavic culture. Anyways it appears to be a lot more complex than just Slav or Albanian. Like other Balkan groups they are probably a mix of old Paleo-Balkan peoples (Illyrians) and Slavs most likely.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Actually yes I did read it in Coon's book The Races of Europe. I know it is old but some of his observations have been proven by genetics and some has been disproven. I never said that Montenegrins do not practice non-Slavic culture. I said basically if they are indeed Slavicized Albanians then they have adopted Slavic culture. Anyways it appears to be a lot more complex than just Slav or Albanian. Like other Balkan groups they are probably a mix of old Paleo-Balkan peoples (Illyrians) and Slavs most likely.

No you said you "believe" they were meaning you have some reason for believing. I was asking for what the reason was.

As to Coon, he stated his theories mainly because he observed some northern Albanian tribes similar to them in appearance and culture. What I find interesting in Coon and he sort of doesn't address it is he mentions that the tribes of Malesia a madha are most similar with other Albanian tribes dramatically diverging from Montenegrins (in appearance, he used height) with just small distances as you moved away from Malesia a madha. Now why would that? To me evidence is Albanians of Malesia a madha absorbed Montenegrin Serbs more so than the more southern tribes and that's why they look most similar (in height at least).

[Black Wolf]

No you said you "believe" they were meaning you have some reason for believing. I was asking for what the reason was.

As to Coon, he stated his theories mainly because he observed some northern Albanian tribes similar to them in appearance and culture. What I find interesting in Coon and he sort of doesn't address it is he mentions that the tribes of Malesia a madha are most similar with Albanian tribes dramatically diverging from them (in appearance, he used height) with just small distances as you moved away from Malesia a madha. Now why would that? To me evidence is Albanians of Malesia a madha absorbed Montenegrin Serbs more so than the more southern tribes and that's why they look most similar (in height at least).

I said ''believe'' because that is what I thought. That is what I had read about this topic before.

Peoples throughout the Balkans have obviously absorbed and mixed with each other over time just look at the Y-DNA haplogroup distributions there. Pretty much all Balkan groups have E1b1b, and I2a among them in pretty high frequencies. Other haplogroups such as J2b and R1b1 are also present. This seems to indicate a decent amount of admixture between the different groups there.

[Skerdilaid]

No you said you "believe" they were meaning you have some reason for believing. I was asking for what the reason was.

As to Coon, he stated his theories mainly because he observed some northern Albanian tribes similar to them in appearance and culture. What I find interesting in Coon and he sort of doesn't address it is he mentions that the tribes of Malesia a madha are most similar with other Albanian tribes dramatically diverging from Montenegrins (in appearance, he used height) with just small distances as you moved away from Malesia a madha. Now why would that? To me evidence is Albanians of Malesia a madha absorbed Montenegrin Serbs more so than the more southern tribes and that's why they look most similar (in height at least).

When it comes to height and general look, majority of Kosovars (exclude Ashkalis) do not differ from Albanians from Malesia e Madhe. When it comes to customs or traditions, an old school Montenegrin would feel right at home in central Drenica, and he would be called a primitive in Serbia. This was quite visible during their colonization of Kosova, where even the old Slavs of Kosova grouped them with the "Shiptar".


When it comes to what they are genetically, then there is no doubt that the Brda Clans are a mere extension of the Albo Clans that mixed with the Slavs and Vlahs that wondered up in the mountains after the Ottoman arrival.

[Stefan_Dusan]

When it comes to height and general look, majority of Kosovars (exclude Ashkalis) do not differ from Albanians from Malesia e Madhe.

On average everyone differs. More importantly, Coon (who people are using to base this) found that northern Albanian tribes dropped in height significantly once leaving Malesia a madha. In just small distances.


When it comes to customs or traditions, an old school Montenegrin would feel right at home in central Drenica, and he would be called a primitive in Serbia. This was very quite visible during their colonization of Kosova, where even the old Slavs of Kosova grouped them with the "Shiptar".

Eh, no he wouldn't be. I never heard any Serbs call a Montenegrin a "Shiptar" in my life. You just made that up. As to traditions, where is Krsna Slava in Drenica ;)



When it comes to what are they genetically, then there is no doubt that the Brad Clans are a mere extension of the Albo Clans that mixed with the Slavs and Vlahs that wondered up in the mountains after the Ottoman arrival.

Maybe no doubt in your mind. But in my mind there is no doubt they are Serbian clans who in isolated cases mixed with neighboring Albanian clans. So who is right? So far MLDP is not on your side ;)

[Skerdilaid]

On average everyone differs. More importantly, Coon (who people are using to base this) found that northern Albanian tribes dropped in height significantly once leaving Malesia a madha. In just small distances.



Eh, no he wouldn't be. I never heard any Serbs call a Montenegrin a "Shiptar" in my life. You just made that up. As to traditions, where is Krsna Slava in Drenica ;)




Maybe no doubt in your mind. But in my mind there is no doubt they are Serbian clans who in isolated cases mixed with neighboring Albanian clans. So who is right? So far MLDP is not on your side ;)

Coon mentions that the Dukagjini are the strongest and the most well build in all of Malesia, but yes regions differ in height, and heading towards Mirdita they do get shorter on average, but descending down into the Dukagjini plains and Kosova they don't differ in height.

Read some of the early Serbs that wrote regarding this very thing, there is countless of material written by Serbs in 1900s. Even Bato Tomasevic is a good reference. Krsna Slava meant nothing to a tribal Montenegrin back in the day.


Open your mind a bit, and show me a similar group of Slavs to them and their traditions:)

[Stefan_Dusan]

Read some of the early Serbs that wrote regarding this very thing, there is counties of material written by Serbs in 1900s. Even Bato Tomasevic is a good reference. Krsna Slava meant nothing to a tribal Montenegrin back in the day.

Actually Krsna Slava is how tribal Montenegrins trace their kinship and very important to them. Only now, after communism, is Krsna Slava something obsolete or not really practiced or practiced to some semi-extent. In addition Krsna Slava is only practiced by Serbs and Montenegrins. Macedonians don't, Bulgarians don't, Croatians don't. There is a famous saying, wherever one has family slava, one finds a Serb.

As to Bato Tomasevic, what did he say to support your claims? Put it here? Tomasevci are an old serb family in kosovo and montenegro.



Open your mind a bit, and show me a similar group of Slavs to them and their traditions:)

Very easy Serbs.

Everything from style of clothing, to Krsna Slava, to gusle, to wolf, to their epic songs connect them more to even Croatian Serbs than they do to much nearer Albanians in Malesia a madha.

[Leopard]

@stefan,solin

Will you show me some actual scientific work which uses atdna for tracking migrations and assimilations?

[Skerdilaid]

=Stefan_Dusan;2407628]Actually Krsna Slava is how tribal Montenegrins trace their kinship and very important to them. Only now, after communism, is Krsna Slava something obsolete or not really practiced or practiced to some semi-extent. In addition Krsna Slava is only practiced by Serbs and Montenegrins. Macedonians don't, Bulgarians don't, Croatians don't. There is a famous saying, wherever one has family slava, one finds a Serb.

As to Bato Tomasevic, what did he say to support your claims? Put it here? Tomasevci are an old serb family in kosovo and montenegro.
Could not find the book in the web, I think you have to buy it: http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2111980.Bato_Tomasevic
Again, having some orthodox traditions of celebrating Slava and such did not mean much to the Brda Clans, as I explained. They were Catholic until about 1600s, Kuci for example. Slava could have come with the Serbs that came up on the mountains and mingled with the locals, basic logic man. Tomasevici are not an old Serb family from Kosova, they are Kuci Clan from Montenegro that came as colonizer in 1900s in Kosova, specifically in Mitrovica. Guess what, they don't deny Albo roots either, the Tomasivci;)





Very easy Serbs.

Everything from style of clothing, to Krsna Slava, to gusle, to wolf, to their epic songs connect them more to even Croatian Serbs than they do to much nearer Albanians in Malesia a madha.

Yugoslavia has changed the demographics and the core culture of the Slavs of the Yugo, in 1900s Montenegrin's were almost identical to the Albos in every day life and the traditions they practiced, such as the Kanun, which Serbs in general were the opposite of what the Montenegrin's actually were.

Why the denial man? Like Hrulj in the other thread was willing to admint that the name Gjin is actually the Trukish loan that means devil, while totally putting aside the countless of sources that confirm, that the name was used by Albanians prior to Ottoman arrival in the Balkans.:D

[Stefan_Dusan]

Again, having some orthodox traditions of celebrating Slava and such did not mean much to the Brda Clans, as I explained. They were Catholic until about 1600s, Kuci for example. Slava could have come with the Serbs that came up on the mountains and mingled with the locals, basic logic man. Tomasevici are not an old Serb family from Kosova, they are Kuci Clan from Montenegro that came as colonizer in 1900s in Kosova, specifically in Mitrovica.

Slava is not an Orthodox tradition as you can't find it among any other Orthodox people. It's a Serbian Orthodox tradition. As to this tiring debate, we had it before and before and before. No Kuci was originally Orthodox, as recorded in Montenegro itself. If you don't want to believe this fine, but don't keep repeating they were Catholic as if your telling me something new. I heard you, and it's wrong. These people trace their ancestry very well and they trace it to Serbians Orthodox.



Why the denial man? Like Hrulj in the other thread was willing to admint that the name Gjin is actually the Trukish loan that means devil, while totally putting aside the countless of sources that confirm that the name was used by Albanians prior to Ottoman arrival in the Balkans.:D

Gjin is an Albanian name, it has little to no relationship to Djin. I saw the thread, and didn't bother responding to it. Djin = evil spirits and it's almost exclusively a Serbian name, i.e not Bosniak or Albanian. See Zoran Djindjic. The reason why Serbs took that name was when they became rebels and decided to terrorize turks other Muslims. A common, non Serbian example, is Count Dracul and his son, Dracula who named themselves after dragons because of terrorizing Turks. Another related word is Dzhin, like Haris Dzhinovic that Hrulj introduced (as slight of hand to replace Djinovic since he can't find a Bosniak with this name) also asian load word meaning giant. But here it's taken as descriptor and not title.

Anyways the Albanian guy from Ulcinj, who claims his name Gjinaj was modified to Djinovic, maybe he's right and that's true. But maybe he's just making it up. He looks more like a Serbian to me than Albanian (at least going by stereotypes) though that doesn't mean much. But anyways it's like me suddenly wanting to be Albanian and saying my name Progoni was changed to Progovac. ;)

No such denial, all Serbian clans trace their ancestry well and they trace it to Serbian Orthodox founders. It's Albanians trying to invent fiction here. Like the old/new Kuci debate we had.

[Skerdilaid]

Slava is not an Orthodox tradition as you can't find it among any other Orthodox people. It's a Serbian Orthodox tradition. As to this tiring debate, we had it before and before and before. No Kuci was originally Orthodox, as recorded in Montenegro itself. If you don't want to believe this fine, but don't keep repeating they were Catholic as if your telling me something new. I heard you, and it's wrong. These people trace their ancestry very well and they trace it to Serbians Orthodox.



Gjin is an Albanian name, it has little to no relationship to Djin. I saw the thread, and didn't bother responding to it. Djin = evil spirits and it's almost exclusively a Serbian name, i.e not Bosniak or Albanian. See Zoran Djindjic. The reason why Serbs took that name was when they became rebels and decided to terrorize turks other Muslims. A common, non Serbian example, is Count Dracul and his son, Dracula who named themselves after dragons because of terrorizing Turks. Another related word is Dzhin, like Haris Dzhinovic that Hrulj introduced (as slight of hand to replace Djinovic since he can't find a Bosniak with this name) also asian load word meaning giant. But here it's taken as descriptor and not title.

Anyways the Albanian guy from Ulcinj, who claims his name Gjinaj was modified to Djinovic, maybe he's right and that's true. But maybe he's just making it up. He looks more like a Serbian to me than Albanian (at least going by stereotypes) though that doesn't mean much. But anyways it's like me suddenly wanting to be Albanian and saying my name Progoni was changed to Progovac. ;)

No such denial, all Serbian clans trace their ancestry well and they trace it to Serbian Orthodox founders. It's Albanians trying to invent fiction ere. Like the old/new Kuci debate we had.

The dude is Albanian, and his name was written by Serbs in Yugoslavia, so it's exactly as the Albo Gjin but written in the Serbian version. Your DJ, is the equivalent of our GJ. There are countless of examples where the Yugoslav officials wrote our last names how it sounded to them, and not how we actually write them and they even added IC to them too. For example the Kuka last name in Drenica, were written as Kukici. They have modified it now though to Kuka. Prenaj, were written down as Prenici and etc..

We are not inventing fiction man, but Kuci Clan is larger among Albos then Serbs today, and they were culturally exactly like us, the Serbs portion, so what do you make out of this?

[Stefan_Dusan]

The dude is Albanian, and his name was written by Serbs in Yugoslavia, so it's exactly as the Albo Gjin but written in the Serbian version. Your DJ, is the equivalent of our GJ. There are countless of examples where the Yugoslav officials wrote our last names how it sounded to them, and not how we actually write them and they even added IC to them too. For example the Kuka last name in Drenica, were written as Kukici. They have modified it now though to Kuka. Prenaj, were written down as Prenici and etc..

I don't know about his individual case but I do know Djin has little to nothing to do with Gjin. There is a reason it's almost exclusively found among Orthodox Serbs and not Muslim Serbs and it's because a title Serbs took when they began terrorizing Turks.


We are not inventing fiction man, but Kuci Clan is larger among Albos then Serbs today, and they were culturally exactly like us, the Serbs portion, so what do you make out of this?

At least in Montenegro it's overwhelmingly Serbian Orthodox. I do not know much about the clan in northern Albania or Kosovo or how authentic members they are of Kuci or not.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Anyways, this is posted by Vukodav:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?108341-Tolerance-in-Montenegro


Montenegrins 7.4
Serbs 13.2
Bosniaks/Muslims 25.1
Albanians 39.4
Croats 35.6
Roma 46.4
Americans 31.5
French 29.9
Russians 30.2
Germans 30.1
English 28.6
Italians 29.2

You can think smaller the number, the more the groups mix, the more similar they are culturally. Etc. Montenegro is included as control group. As obvious, Serbians are their, by far, closest grouping. Albanians are the farthest just before gypsys and after Croats, Bosniaks (Muslims!), Americans, and Russians.

Genetically I've never seen Montenegrins plot away from other South Slavs, specifically Serbs, for Albanians in either Albania or Kosovo. So Montenegrins are south slavs, say Serbs, with some Albanian admixture in isolated case. Not Albanians with some south slav admixture, as being presented on apricity.

So where is this evidence?

[Skerdilaid]

Anyways, this is posted by Vukodav:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?108341-Tolerance-in-Montenegro



You can think smaller the number, the more the groups mix, the more similar they are culturally. Etc. Montenegro is included as control group. As obvious, Serbians are their, by far, closest grouping. Albanians are the farthest just before gypsys and after Croats, Bosniaks (Muslims!), Americans, and Russians.

Genetically I've never seen Montenegrins plot away from other South Slavs, specifically Serbs, for Albanians in either Albania or Kosovo. So Montenegrins are south slavs, say Serbs, with some Albanian admixture in isolated case. Not Albanians with some south slav admixture, as being presented on apricity.

So where is this evidence?

Animosity between Montes and Albos started when the Brda Clans joined Vladika, and this is exactly around 1700s. So, what today's Montes think about Albos we all know, but I bet if Yugoslavia did not play it's role in ridiculing Albos then their attitude would have been quite different.


If you say so, then why were they culturally Albanian rather then Serbs/Slavs?

[Stefan_Dusan]

Animosity between Montes and Albos started when the Brda Clans joined Vladika, and this is exactly around 1700s. So, what today's Montes think about Albos we all know, but I bet if Yugoslavia did not play it's role in ridiculing Albos then their attitude would have been quite different.


If you say so, then why were they culturally Albanian rather then Serbs/Slavs?

Who says they're culturally Albanian? I don't say this. Any similarities is due to Albanians and them rubbing shoulders. Montenegrins are first and foremost similar to other Serbians, even as far away as Lika region, than they are any Albanian tribe.

First of all, the Brda clans were Orthodox way before 1700s. Like I said, they trace their ancestry very well, including when they adopted their Krsna Slava. 1300s is when most can trace their slava. There is book in Montenegro and lists all family names accompanied with their father's slava and years of adoption.

Second, Montenegrins and Albanians began hating each other in 1800s when some Albanians began trying to annex portions of Montenegro for Ottoman Empire. This snowballed even larger during the Christian-Muslim exchanges of the 1800s, especially in Kosovo and Macedonia. And this continued right up to the present day reenforced by wars etc. But in 1700s there was no real animosity as there was no real animosity between Serbs in general and Albanians. Most tensions started in 1800s and went out of control 1900s.

[Skerdilaid]

Who says they're culturally Albanian? I don't say this. Any similarities is due to Albanians and them rubbing shoulders. Montenegrins are first and foremost similar to other Serbians, even as far away as Lika region, than they are any Albanian tribe.

First of all, the Brda clans were Orthodox way before 1700s. Like I said, they trace their ancestry very well, including when they adopted their Krsna Slava. 1300s is when most can trace their slava. There is book in Montenegro and lists all family names accompanied with their father's slava and years of adoption.

Second, Montenegrins and Albanians began hating each other in 1800s when some Albanians began trying to annex portions of Montenegro for Ottoman Empire. This snowballed even larger during the Christian-Muslim exchanges of the 1800s, especially in Kosovo and Macedonia. And this continued right up to the present day reenforced by wars etc. But in 1700s there was no real animosity as there was no real animosity between Serbs in general and Albanians. Most tensions started in 1800s and went out of control 1900s.

All outsiders that have visited the region in 1900s have made such remarks, I am only talking about the Brda Clans because the others are in ancestry Slav-Vlah mix. You don't know how life was up there in 1900s, so you don't have a say:D Leave it to experts! Tribal fighting was quite common up there, Kelmendi for example was in war with all Clans at one point, and they all refused to give them brides. What you are describing in 1800s is when Bushatliu of Shkodra tried to occupy Montenegro, not Albanians. What exchanges are you talking about in 1800s?

[Stefan_Dusan]

All outsiders that have visited the region in 1900s have made such remarks, I am only talking about the Brda Clans because the others are in ancestry Slav-Vlah mix. You don't know how life was up there in 1900s, so you don't have a say:D Leave it to experts! Tribal fighting was quite common up there, Kelmendi for example was in war with all Clans at one point, and they all refused to give them brides. What you are describing in 1800s is when Bushatliu of Shkodra tried to occupy Montenegro, not Albanians. What exchanges are you talking about in 1800s?

If you can explain to me why Serbs as far as away as Lika live in similar tribal structure, have similar instruments (gusla, epic poetry), krsna slava traditions same, same myths and folks as Montenegrins but southern Albanians who are geographically closer do not at all, then I give you it's Albanian culture and not Serbian. Can you find one Greek/Roman depiction of Illyrians playing gusla or organizing their families in such a way? I don't think so, such thing came with Serbs who were military caste (similar to Cossacks of 1800s) invited by Byzantines to keep order.

Anyways, Montenegrin Serbs trace their ancestry very well. If they traced to Albanian grandfather they would *never* identify as Serbian for betrayal of blood and ancestors is very bad in those areas. You have to explain me how Albanians one day decided to be Serbs in these highlands but never did the same in Kosovo where they were under Serbs for much longer.

The exchanges I'm talking about was during the Ottoman-Serb-Greek wars of 1800s. It's why many Albanians fled from Nish area to Kosovo and many Christian Serbs (and Albanians) fled Kosovo to Montenegro or Nish area. More dramatic happened in Greece.

[Skerdilaid]

If you can explain to me why Serbs as far as away as Lika live in similar tribal structure, have similar instruments (gusla, epic poetry), krsna slava traditions same, same myths and folks as Montenegrins but southern Albanians who are geographically closer do not at all, then I give you it's Albanian culture and not Serbian. Can you find one Greek/Roman depiction of Illyrians playing gusla or organizing their families in such a way? I don't think so, such thing came with Serbs who were military caste (similar to Cossacks of 1800s) invited by Byzantines to keep order.

Anyways, Montenegrin Serbs trace their ancestry very well. If they traced to Albanian grandfather they would *never* identify as Serbian for betrayal of blood and ancestors is very bad in those areas. You have to explain me how Albanians one day decided to be Serbs in these highlands but never did the same in Kosovo where they were under Serbs for much longer.

The exchanges I'm talking about was during the Ottoman-Serb-Greek wars of 1800s. It's why many Albanians fled from Nish area to Kosovo and many Christian Serbs (and Albanians) fled Kosovo to Montenegro or Nish area. More dramatic happened in Greece.


Gusla is an instrument that most likely came to Balkans with the Huns and Avars, so I will not discuss it how it came to be the main instrument of the mountain folk. Illyrians were a warlike society, and are recorded as such, even Romans have mentioned that Dardanians loved dancing and singing with stringed instruments (what this instrument could be, who knows). South Albanians and North Albanians did not differ prior to Ottoman arrival, they were as tribal and fierce as their Northern brothers, see Suliots and other branches of Arvanits, and they too had tribes orginized with Kanun exactly like the Northen Ghegs. It seem you are not familiar with our history, but are only picking few items to make your point. Why don't you find a Slavic group that was warlike and with similar tribal culture/traditions to them then?

Albanians have been a military cast organized in tribes since history has recorded us, I don't need to talk about this because it's well recorded! Slavs in other hand were not military cast as you wish, but were invited as farmers to populate the land by Byzantines, also, not to forget Slavs rode on the coat tail of the warlike Avars and Huns. Serbs became Serbs though mixing of Slavs and Native Balkanites, have you ever wondered why did the first warlike Serbs rise just around Dinaric mountains, and not in the flat lands where majority of Slavs lived as farmers?

Brda Clans mixed heavy with Slavs and Vlahs that wondered up in the mountains as I explained earlier, hence why they got Slavicized. In other hand Albanians in Kosova did not mix at all, we considered Slavs as inferior, hence why we did not mix. Albanians marriages back in the day were heavily influenced by the status of the family, so marriages were used to make bonds with other warlike Clans. Serbs/Slavs in Kosova were just simple dirty farmers that did not caught our attention (there is a Serb that wrote about this very subject in 1900s).

[Stefan_Dusan]

Gusla is an instrument that most likely came to Balkans with the Huns and Avars, so I will not discuss it how it came to be the main instrument of the mountain folk. Illyrians were a warlike society, and are recorded as such, even Romans have mentioned that Dardanians loved dancing and singing with stringed instruments (what this instrument could be, who knows). South Albanians and North Albanians did not differ prior to Ottoman arrival, they were as tribal and fierce as their Northern brothers, see Suliots and other branches of Arvanits, and they too had tribes orginized with Kanun exactly like the Northen Ghegs. It seem you are not familiar with our history, but are only picking few items to make your point. Why don't you find a Slavic group that was warlike and with similar tribal culture/traditions to them then?

Albanians have been a military cast organized in tribes since history has recorded us, I don't need to talk about this because it's well recorded! Slavs in other hand were not military cast as you wish, but were invited as farmers to populate the land by Byzantines, also, not forget Slavs rode on the coat tail of the warlike Avars and Huns. Serbs became Serbs though mixing of Slavs and Native Balkanites, have you ever wondered why did the first warlike Serbs rise just around Dinaric mountains, and not in the flat lands where majority of Slavs lived as farmers?

Brda Clans mixed heavy with Slavs and Vlahs that wondered up in the mountains as I explained earlier, hence why they got Slavicized. In other hand Albanians in Kosova did not mix at all, we considered Slavs as inferior, hence why we did not mix. Albanians marriages back in the day were heavily influenced by the status of the family, so marriages were used to make bonds with other warlike Clans. Serbs/Slavs in Kosova were just simple dirty farmers that did not caught our attention (there is a Serb that wrote about this very subject in 1900s).

Serbs were invited to the Balkans by the Byzantines to safeguard their territories. The Serbs were noted by the Byzantines as a war-like caste. A similar slavic group, though much later in history, would be the Cossacks. At this point in history, Albanians were pretty much isolated and inconsequential to point it's hard to find them in records of (600s and up).

We had this talk before, Serbs came to Balkans very differently than slavic farmers with no identity. We are on record being invited by Byzantines to rule some of their land in exchange for our military service ;) In the course, we would end up dominating western Balkans.

And its also Serbs in Kosovo who don't want to mix with Albanians. Ask a Serb if he will ever give his daughter to an Albanian. But as we know, mixing happened more than you think, otherwise I would not match some Kosovar Albanians on 23andMe.

[Skerdilaid]

Serbs were invited to the Balkans by the Byzantines to safeguard their territories. The Serbs were noted by the Byzantines as a war-like caste. A similar slavic group, though much later in history, would be the Cossacks. At this point in history, Albanians were pretty much isolated and inconsequential to point it's hard to find them in records of (600s and up).

We had this talk before, Serbs came to Balkans very differently than slavic farmers with no identity. We are on record being invited by Byzantines to rule some of their land in exchange for our military service ;) In the course, we would end up dominating western Balkans.

And its also Serbs in Kosovo who don't want to mix with Albanians. Ask a Serb if he will ever give his daughter to an Albanian. But as we know, mixing happened more than you think, otherwise I would not match some Kosovar Albanians on 23andMe.

Anyways, there are plenty of good reading regarding Serb/Slav arrival in the Balkans, and non state what you are saying.

Yugoslavia changed the mentality of Slavs in that region, I have mentioned this before, prior to that Albanians were top dogs in the region prior to that..

[Stefan_Dusan]

have you ever wondered why did the first warlike Serbs rise just around Dinaric mountains, and not in the flat lands where majority of Slavs lived as farmers?

I missed this earlier.

You mean Shumadija? Shumadija is where Serbs first freed themselves from Turks, even before Montenegro (well, Montenegro was constantly being freed and reoccupied but once and for all I mean) and definitely before Herzegovina. In fact the chain of dominos that marked the end of the Ottoman empire started in the forests of Shumadija, now mostly farm land.

Have you heard of Stefan Sindjelic? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevan_Sinđelić

He and his men blew themselves up taking thousands of Turks with them. Such level of sacrifice is hard to find from anywhere else.

You definitely heard of Draza Mihailovic, also from Shumadija, who became the most influential chetnik during WW2, who under his command commanded respect from Montenegrin, Herzegovinian chetniks. He also gave the fiercest resistance to the Germans.

People from Shumadija have different traditions, but they proved themselves warlike enough. While every other Balkan nationality was sitting under Ottoman yoke, people there laid fire to Ottoman doorstep and eventually burned down the whole building.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Anyways, there are plenty of good reading regarding Serb/Slav arrival in the Balkans, and non state what you are saying.

Yugoslavia changed the mentality of Slavs in that region, I have mentioned this before, prior to that Albanians top dogs in the region prior to that..

Actually there are. You keep conflating the arrival of Slavs with Serbs. Serbs are slavs, but we already had an identity (unlike the other slavs) and were invited by Byzantines to protect their borders. This even something you can find in Wikipedia! Not that wikipedia is good source of knowledge. This is why you see mini Serbian kingdoms out of Byzantine but you don't see for any other slavs! We were given land on the coast in response for us to rule the land and fight. Other slavs merely either ran to safety of Byzantine or raided it (or did both).

[Skerdilaid]

I missed this earlier.

You mean Shumadija? Shumadija is where Serbs first freed themselves from Turks, even before Montenegro (well, Montenegro was constantly being freed and reoccupied but once and for all I mean) and definitely before Herzegovina. In fact the chain of dominos that marked the end of the Ottoman empire started in the forests of Shumadija, now mostly farm land.

Have you heard of Stefan Sindjelic? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevan_Sinđelić

He and his men blew themselves up taking thousands of Turks with them. Such level of sacrifice is hard to find from anywhere else.

You definitely heard of Draza Mihailovic, also from Shumadija, who became the most influential chetnik during WW2, who under his command commanded respect from Montenegrin, Herzegovinian chetniks. He also gave the fiercest resistance to the Germans.

People from Shumadija have different traditions, but they proved themselves warlike enough. While every other Balkan nationality was sitting under Ottoman yoke, people there laid fire to Ottoman doorstep and eventually burned down the whole building.

No, I meant as in the first rise of the Serb kings.

[Stefan_Dusan]

No, I meant as in the first rise of the Serb kings.

I don't understand, during rise of Serbian kings, there was no Shumadija. Serbian origins are Montenegro and Rashka (now Sandzhak) everything else is what Serbians conquered and populated (as well as assimilated the people). So all the old Serbian kings come from there simply because those were original Serbian lands in the Balkans.

[Skerdilaid]

I don't understand, during rise of Serbian kings, there was no Shumadija. Serbian origins are Montenegro and Rashka (now Sandzhak) everything else is what Serbians conquered and populated (as well as assimilated the people). So all the old Serbian kings come from there simply because those were original Serbian lands in the Balkans.

The problem is what I have put on bold, lets get this straight, there is no "original Serb land in Balkans"! No, go back to my earlier post and see what I have stated, and why those kings came from these regions.

[Stefan_Dusan]

The problem is what I have put on bold, lets get this straight, there is no "original Serb land in Balkans"! No, go back to my earlier post and see what I have stated, and why those kings came from these regions.

Because those are the lands Byzantines gave the Serbs and those were the lands they were Kings of ;) Back then Shumadija was sparsely if it all populated. Maybe just some random Celtic tribes there. Where else would Serbian kings come except the lands they ruled?

[Skerdilaid]

Because those are the lands Byzantines gave the Serbs and those were the lands they were Kings of ;) Back then Shumadija was sparsely if it all populated. Maybe just some random Celtic tribes there. Where else would Serbian kings come except the lands they ruled?

OK Stefan, I will let you believe what you like;)

[justme]

Both Serbs and Montenegrin are Slavicised Illyrians.

[Novi Pazar]

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII12.htm

The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a barren limestone mountain upland, where they, for centuries, succeeded in maintaining their Christianity and their freedom while surrounded by the Turks. They, like the northern Albanians, preserve their old exogamous clan organization, and their clan loyalties and feuds. They are linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians.

Loki, sorry mate, don't rely on Coon, his outdated and is void of any logic? Explain to me why Albania has so many Serbian toponyms, for instance? Surely it cannot be amnesia, Chipetars must know their ancient Illyrian toponyms!

PS Don't forget that Byzantines brought Albanians (from Sicily) into Serbia via Serbian Drach in the middle of the 11th cent. Next time, plz don't blindly believe these western sources as fact.

[Kastrioti1443]

Loki, sorry mate, don't rely on Coon, his outdated and is void of any logic? Explain to me why Albania has so many Serbian toponyms, for instance? Surely it cannot be amnesia, Chipetars must know their ancient Illyrian toponyms!

PS Don't forget that Byzantines brought Albanians (from Sicily) into Serbia via Serbian Drach in the middle of the 11th cent. Next time, plz don't blindly believe these western sources as fact.

Listen serbian wog, Albanian lands do not have '' serbian '' toponymes, but they have some SLAVIC toponymes, from the early slavic migrations and mostly from the 2 bulgarian empires, the slavic toponymes have nothing to do with anadolid-vlacho serbs. The serbian nation was created in 1831 by mixing some slavophones, orthodox albanians and vlachs. The '' serbian '' language was created by Vuk Karaxhixh, by mixing russian with bulgarian, he studied 29 years to create the '' serbian '' language.

Serbs are originally mongrels from Kazakistan who got slavicised, nothing more and nothing else.

[Novi Pazar]

Bear in mind that even Serbs are partially Slavicized Illyrians. Especially Bosnians.

Slavicised Illyrians? Prior to the congress of Berlin Serbs were known to be Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians etc.....Slavs originate from the Helm(Balkans) not from the North!

[Novi Pazar]

Listen serbian wog, Albanian lands do not have '' serbian '' toponymes, but they have some SLAVIC toponymes, from the early slavic migrations and mostly from the 2 bulgarian empires, the slavic toponymes have nothing to do with anadolid-vlacho serbs. The serbian nation was created in 1831 by mixing some slavophones, orthodox albanians and vlachs. The '' serbian '' language was created by Vuk Karaxhixh, by mixing russian with bulgarian, he studied 29 years to create the '' serbian '' language.

Serbs are originally mongrels from Kazakistan who got slavicised, nothing more and nothing else.

Who told you Serbs are from Khazakistan? The university of Tirana? The whole of Shqiperia was Serbian, Chipetars were Byzantine footsoliders in their war against Serbia, which they lost! Begged Serbs to let them stay inside Serbia when Byzantines kicked your sorry backsides out! Serbs saw you Chipetars as useful cattle herders and settled you around the raban; hence the Serbian name rabanasi, then it morphed into arbanasi. Your f'ing ancestors borrowed words, traditions directly from Serbs because your ancestors lived around Serbs! The Slavic toponyms, hydronyms etc...are ancient Serbian in your Shqiperia.

[Novi Pazar]

1043AD is the recorded date Chipetars enter inside Serbian Drach or your Albanianised form Durres with Byzantines! Before this date, there is not a single Chipetar inside the Balkans nor were they inside Serbia. Before this date Chipetars were inhabiting Former Arabic regions of Sicily, as Muslims to boost the Muslim population of the region, prior to Sicily you Chipetars were over in Saudi Arabia near the Black Sea. For anyone who doesn't know the true original homeland of Chipetars was the modern region of today's Dagestan! Khazars and Arabs fought each other in the Caucasus (9th cent), as Chipetars were loyal subjects of the Arabs, they saved them from extinction, as Khazars did eliminate Chipetars who did stay behind in their homelands. Arabs sent two colonies of Chipetars, one to Saudi Arabia and the other to Syria. Syrian Chipetars assimilated into Syrians quickly, whilst the Saudi Chipetars had a rough time lol

[Kastrioti1443]

Who told you Serbs are from Khazakistan? The university of Tirana? The whole of Shqiperia was Serbian, Chipetars were Byzantine footsoliders in their war against Serbia, which they lost! Begged Serbs to let them stay inside Serbia when Byzantines kicked your sorry backsides out! Serbs saw you Chipetars as useful cattle herders and settled you around the raban; hence the Serbian name rabanasi, then it morphed into arbanasi. Your f'ing ancestors borrowed words, traditions directly from Serbs because your ancestors lived around Serbs! The Slavic toponyms, hydronyms etc...are ancient Serbian in your Shqiperia.


You are the members who i despise the most, you are a typical serbian subhuman won, agains for you mongrel:


Listen serbian wog, Albanian lands do not have '' serbian '' toponymes, but they have some SLAVIC toponymes, from the early slavic migrations and mostly from the 2 bulgarian empires, the slavic toponymes have nothing to do with anadolid-vlacho serbs. The serbian nation was created in 1831 by mixing some slavophones, orthodox albanians and vlachs. The '' serbian '' language was created by Vuk Karaxhixh, by mixing russian with bulgarian, he studied 29 years to create the '' serbian '' language.

Serbs are originally mongrels from Kazakistan who got slavicised, nothing more and nothing else.

[Chieftain]

I'm a faggot midget wog who came from Khazakistan

I am from Northern Albania where these 'serb' toponyms you claim are present, yet I know the name of every village, mountain or fountain that has a slavic name(they're probably 10% of all names as 90% have very old ancient names even before slavs came in the 7th century) and none of them make any sense in Serbian, for example shitloads of names(Lepushe, Pulat, Kelmend, Kastrat, Gurra) make no sense even in any slavic language, and some few that are doubted of being slavic make no sense in serbian(velecik, jeran etc).

Result of this shit, there are no serbs in Northern Albania, the only presence of serbs is the skulls of the fallen soldiers that tried to doublecross us many years ago when they passed through the Gjakova valley, and we kept the skulls of the serbs as a presence and a warning for every serb who would try to go through the highlands again.

These 'serbs' that all serb wet dream fanatics claim to exist in Northern Albania hate you more than any albanian and if someone would show a bit humanity with you, we would not because we know of your treachorous ways.

[Pjeter Pan]

1043AD is the recorded date Chipetars enter inside Serbian Drach or your Albanianised form Durres with Byzantines! Before this date, there is not a single Chipetar inside the Balkans nor were they inside Serbia. Before this date Chipetars were inhabiting Former Arabic regions of Sicily, as Muslims to boost the Muslim population of the region, prior to Sicily you Chipetars were over in Saudi Arabia near the Black Sea. For anyone who doesn't know the true original homeland of Chipetars was the modern region of today's Dagestan! Khazars and Arabs fought each other in the Caucasus (9th cent), as Chipetars were loyal subjects of the Arabs, they saved them from extinction, as Khazars did eliminate Chipetars who did stay behind in their homelands. Arabs sent two colonies of Chipetars, one to Saudi Arabia and the other to Syria. Syrian Chipetars assimilated into Syrians quickly, whilst the Saudi Chipetars had a rough time lol
LMFAO how do you come up with this shit, you should become a fantasy fiction book author. Show me proof

[kvarc]

northen Albania had an apsolute Serbian majority `till about 18th century, this is one of the 1000 000 thing Albanins are butt hrted when it comes to Serbs and there tinny history

[Pjeter Pan]

northen Albania had an apsolute Serbian majority `till about 18th century, this is one of the 1000 000 thing Albanins are butt hrted when it comes to Serbs and there tinny history
LMFAO where's the proof man? What happen who kicked them out since you were an absolute majority? Tiny history? stop making me laugh.

[Novi Pazar]

northen Albania had an apsolute Serbian majority `till about 18th century, this is one of the 1000 000 thing Albanins are butt hrted when it comes to Serbs and there tinny history


Not only northern Shqiperia brate but entire Shqiperia, for example the mijaks were chipetarised in Shqiperia. Other part of mijaks went to western Macedonia.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Not only northern Shqiperia brate but entire Shqiperia, for example the mijaks were chipetarised in Shqiperia. Other part of mijaks went to western Macedonia.

The Majks practice family slava and were one of few Macedonian people to vote to join Serbia instead of Bulgaria after the first Balkan war. They are old Kosovo Serbs mixed with Albanians who are now Macedonians.

[Crn Volk]

The Majks practice family slava and were one of few Macedonian people to vote to join Serbia instead of Bulgaria after the first Balkan war. They are old Kosovo Serbs mixed with Albanians who are now Macedonians.

There was a vote? What were the results?

[Stefan_Dusan]

There was a vote? What were the results?

I don't remember exactly except they petitioned to join/stay with Serbia. Which would be strange given rest of Macedonians either wanted to be independent or part of Bulgaria. But I'm looking for it now.

[Crn Volk]

I don't remember exactly except they petitioned to join/stay with Serbia. Which would be strange given rest of Macedonians either wanted to be independent or part of Bulgaria. But I'm looking for it now.

Some people wrote some letters of their desires. This was far from a vote.

[Novi Pazar]

LMFAO how do you come up with this shit, you should become a fantasy fiction book author. Show me proof

Fantasy is German, Vactican inspired falsified Chipetarsko history. Chipetars are not Illyrians nor Thracians. The name Thrace is a greekified Serb name from rasi, raska etc...Greeks could not pronounce the hard R so they softened the tone with employing TH to the Serb name. One particular tribe the Raseni (italy) originated from the Rasi Thracians (Serbs). The Serbs of Adriatic who began to have St. Illija as their patron saint became known to themselves and others as the Illyrians. You see, Chipetars don't know this because they came to the Balkans in 1043AD and the Wacky German history of 19th cent stupidly named Chipetars as ancient Illyrians LMAO!

[Novi Pazar]

The Majks practice family slava and were one of few Macedonian people to vote to join Serbia instead of Bulgaria after the first Balkan war. They are old Kosovo Serbs mixed with Albanians who are now Macedonians.

Mijaks came from central Shqiperia, ELBASAN!

[Pjeter Pan]

Fantasy is German, Vactican inspired falsified Chipetarsko history. Chipetars are not Illyrians nor Thracians. The name Thrace is a greekified Serb name from rasi, raska etc...Greeks could not pronounce the hard R so they softened the tone with employing TH to the Serb name. One particular tribe the Raseni (italy) originated from the Rasi Thracians (Serbs). The Serbs of Adriatic who began to have St. Illija as their patron saint became known to themselves and others as the Illyrians. You see, Chipetars don't know this because they came to the Balkans in 1043AD and the Wacky German history of 19th cent stupidly named Chipetars as ancient Illyrians LMAO!

Source- novi pazar

Oh ok thanks for opening my eyes and showing me the light thanks again bro I can finally rest in peace.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Mijaks came from central Shqiperia, ELBASAN!

I don't know where they come from, but if they sing about the Kosovo battle I'd imagine they come from Kosovo. Here are some bits on them:


After the Treaty of San Stefano (March 3, 1878), the Debar county, along with 11 other counties of Slavic Macedonia, sent deputies and appeals to Prince Milan of Serbia (r. 1868-1889), asking him to annex the region to Serbia.[9][full citation needed] This was made after the Principality of Bulgaria received most of the Macedonia region by the Ottoman Empire, and the earlier establishment and expansion of the Bulgarian Exarchate (February 28, 1870; in 1874, Skopje and Ohrid voted in favour of the Exarchate).


According to Serbian ethnographer Jovan Cvijić writing in 1922,[12] the older generation were familiar to the Battle of Kosovo (1389) and Tsar Lazar, and still had the Serbian feast days and sung the epic poetry regarding that time,

But most damning to me:


Every family had the slava (служба, veneration of protecting family saint). The center of spiritual life was in the Saint Jovan Bigorski Monastery, of which interior there was a very old memorial, describing its history, which spoke of the Nemanjić dynasty and the Serbian archbishops. Also, the external frescoes depicted Serbian rulers until the Battle of Kosovo, painted by a peasant from Lazaropole. The history of the monastery, and the Mijaks themselves, showed that they were always striving for independence. They constantly opposed the use of Greek as liturgical language in the churches, and when the Bulgarian Exarchate was imposed in the region, the Mijak monks maintained complete ecclesiastical freedom, and kept all old Serbian monuments of the St. John's monastery.[13]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks

Of course they're Macedonians now, but I believe them to have Serbian origin. How many Macedonian families practice family slava?

[Crn Volk]

I don't know where they come from, but if they sing about the Kosovo battle I'd imagine they come from Kosovo. Here are some bits on them:





But most damning to me:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks

Of course they're Macedonians now, but I believe them to have Serbian origin. How many Macedonian families practice family slava?

Most Macedonians do. My family does and we are from Bitolsko, and ex-Exarchist

[Stefan_Dusan]

Most Macedonians do. My family does and we are from Bitolsko, and ex-Exarchist

So what is your family slava and what is your national (Macedonian) slava? I'm surprised by this since most Macedonians I talk to just practice national slava.

[Novi Pazar]

Source- novi pazar

Oh ok thanks for opening my eyes and showing me the light thanks again bro I can finally rest in peace.

Source? You Chipetari make me laugh! Serbs were such a huge people that their name is found in many places, where Moses received the 10 commandments (mt. Sinai) you will find Serbian toponyms!

For starters look up Maniakos you stupid Chipetar garbage!

[Pjeter Pan]

Source? You Chipetari make me laugh! Serbs were such a huge people that their name is found in many places, where Moses received the 10 commandments (mt. Sinai) you will find Serbian toponyms!

For starters look up Maniakos you stupid Chipetar garbage!
Lmfao thanks again for being the bringer of truth. I didn't know Moses was a Serb and that god also wrote in Serbian until now. Are you a professor at the university of Belgrade?

[Crn Volk]

So what is your family slava and what is your national (Macedonian) slava? I'm surprised by this since most Macedonians I talk to just practice national slava.

Selska Slava = Todorovden, ie., St Theodore's Day
Kujkna Slava = Arangjel ie., Archangel Michael/St. Michael
National Slava is Ilinden ie., St Elijah's day

Sadly though in the diaspora this is disappearing

[Skerdilaid]

Lmfao thanks again for being the bringer of truth. I didn't know Moses was a Serb and that god also wrote in Serbian until now. Are you a professor at the university of Belgrade?

He is :pound:

[Skerdilaid]

The Majks practice family slava and were one of few Macedonian people to vote to join Serbia instead of Bulgaria after the first Balkan war. They are old Kosovo Serbs mixed with Albanians who are now Macedonians.

Practicing Slava does not make one Serbian.

[Skerdilaid]

Fantasy is German, Vactican inspired falsified Chipetarsko history. Chipetars are not Illyrians nor Thracians. The name Thrace is a greekified Serb name from rasi, raska etc...Greeks could not pronounce the hard R so they softened the tone with employing TH to the Serb name. One particular tribe the Raseni (italy) originated from the Rasi Thracians (Serbs). The Serbs of Adriatic who began to have St. Illija as their patron saint became known to themselves and others as the Illyrians. You see, Chipetars don't know this because they came to the Balkans in 1043AD and the Wacky German history of 19th cent stupidly named Chipetars as ancient Illyrians LMAO!

Pazar, tell us again the story of how the Chiptarian fucked your aunt;)


I have to say it's quite entertaining.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Practicing Slava does not make one Serbian.

Well it's overwhelming practiced by people formerly part of the Serbian Orthodox church:


is a Serbian Orthodox Church tradition of the ritual glorification of one's family's patron saint among Serbs, but also Serbs in Montenegro and Macedonia. The family celebrates the Slava annually on the saint's feast day. Unlike other major Orthodox Christian nations, i.e. Greeks, Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Georgians etc., Serbs do not celebrate individual name days, as when a person named after a saint would celebrate that saint's feast day, but instead they do it collectively as the name day of a certain family and/or clan.


According to Constantine's DAI one of the Serbian tribes was nicknamed „Pagani“ (what Constantine himself translates as “unbaptized in the Slavic tongue” (DAI, 29, 81) indicating that the others were already Christianized. When the time came for Serbs to accept Christianity from Constantinople, they were not baptized collectively, as was the case with Russians or Bulgarians, but the baptism was done during the process that took place village by village or clan by clan and, depending on the Saint-day they were Christened, each family acquired a particular Saint patron.


While the Slava kept something of a grassroots underground popularity during the Communist period, the post-Communist revival of Christian traditions has brought it a great resurgence. It is recognized as a distinctly (if not quite exclusively) Serbian custom, and today it is quite common for nonobservant Christians or even atheists to celebrate it in one form or another as a hereditary family holiday and a mark of ethnocultural identification.
"Slava" is also helpful in demographic investigations as genealogical indicator of relationships between families and branches of the same family.


Gde je Slava, tu je Srbin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava#cite_note-SOF-5

[Crn Volk]

Well it's overwhelming practiced by people formerly part of the Serbian Orthodox church:









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava#cite_note-SOF-5

Actually, it is most probably a left over Slavic pagan ritual that was fused into Christian tradition. I have read that the patron saints celebrated in the Slava were formerly Slavic gods that were replaced with Christian saints.

[Skerdilaid]

Well it's overwhelming practiced by people formerly part of the Serbian Orthodox church:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava#cite_note-SOF-5


I know that, hence I said what I said. Serbian Church did have influence on other ethnicities, for example the Albanian Orthodox from Kosova all practiced Slava, even though today they all claim to be Serbs. At one point in time it became the most influential Church in the region as Catholic churches lost dominance, especially during Ottoman occupation. Also, most Slavs had similar traditions back in the day too, so you can't say it's specifically Serb.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Actually, it is most probably a left over Slavic pagan ritual that was fused into Christian tradition. I have read that the patron saints celebrated in the Slava were formerly Slavic gods that were replaced with Christian saints.

Then why don't vast majority of slavs practice it? Eg Russians? Bulgarians? What made Serbs (and I guess Macedonians) so special to preserve it?


I know that, hence I said what I said. Serbian Church did have influence on other ethnicities, for example the Albanian Orthodox from Kosova all practiced Slava, even though today they all claim to be Serbs. At one point in time it became the most influential Church in the region as Catholic churches lost dominance, especially during Ottoman occupation. Also, most Slavs had similar traditions back in the day too, so you can't say it's specifically Serb.

Orthodox was the most influential church before Ottomans. While this ethnographic bickering (were Serbs first, were Albanians) can't be decided, religion can be because Ottomans recorded religious landscape once they inherited Kosovo and it was almost entirely Orthodox. Later it became to Islamize.

But I don't if all Slavs had similar tradition, why don't they have it now? Why did Serbs preserve it? I read somewhere, off topic, that Serbians along with Croats were the first slavic identity. Even before Russians and Poles, etc.

[Crn Volk]

Stefan_Dusan;2417139]Then why don't vast majority of slavs practice it? Eg Russians? Bulgarians? What made Serbs (and I guess Macedonians) so special to preserve it?

Not sure, but there was no large-scale Serb settlement in Macedonia, but there were Slavic settlements.

[Stefan_Dusan]

[

Not sure, but there was no large-scale Serb settlement in Macedonia, but there were Slavic settlements.

Well one thing is that you were part of the Serbian Orthodox church before you split out of Ohrid. So, you might still have some of our traditions I guess. Macedonia was "heartland" of Serbian kingdom shortly before being taken by Ottoman. Of course, what it meant to be Serb back than is unclear.

[Skerdilaid]

=Stefan_Dusan;2417139]Then why don't vast majority of slavs practice it? Eg Russians? Bulgarians? What made Serbs (and I guess Macedonians) so special to preserve it?

Serbs in general and quite a bit of Slav tribes that inhabited Kosova and Macedonia were not Christened collectively like Bulgarians for example (Bulgarians that inhabited Bulgarian Empire), but separately, village for village and Clan for Clan.

Orthodox was the most influential church before Ottomans. While this ethnographic bickering (were Serbs first, were Albanians) can't be decided, religion can be because Ottomans recorded religious landscape once they inherited Kosovo and it was almost entirely Orthodox. Later it became to Islamize.

But I don't if all Slavs had similar tradition, why don't they have it now? Why did Serbs preserve it? I read somewhere, off topic, that Serbians along with Croats were the first slavic identity. Even before Russians and Poles, etc.


First, Christianity predates Serbs or anything Slav in Kosova, second, It was the Bulgarian church that started dominating the area once it took over from the Byzantines so the original inhabitants practiced what today is known as Orthodoxy. Except, In some areas of Western Kosova for example was dominated by Catholic church in early middle ages, until Serb dominance started taking over.

[Stefan_Dusan]

First, Christianity predates Serbs or anything Slav in Kosova, second, It was the Bulgarian church that started dominating the area once it took over from the Byzantines so the original inhabitants practices what today is known as Orthodoxy. Except, In some areas of Western Kosova for example was dominated by Catholic church in early middle ages, until Serb dominance started taking over.

It was first Byzantium Orthodox Church as Kosovo was part of the Orthodox world with the great schism (creation of Catholic and Orthodox churches with seats in Rome/Constantinople). Then Bulgarians occupied it, I'm assuming they imposed their church (one of the first Orthodox church's) on the people. Then Serbs occupied and did the same. One thing is for sure, any slava done in Kosovo is from Serbian Orthodox church, not Bulgarian or Greek (Byzantium).

[Skerdilaid]

It was first Byzantium Orthodox Church as Kosovo was part of the Orthodox world with the great schism (creation of Catholic and Orthodox churches with seats in Rome/Constantinople). Then Bulgarians occupied it, I'm assuming they imposed their church (one of the first Orthodox church's) on the people. Then Serbs occupied and did the same. One thing is for sure, any slava done in Kosovo is from Serbian Orthodox church, not Bulgarian or Greek (Byzantium).

Well, as I said, it's hard to say that because most of the Slavs of Kosova did not identify as Serbs. And, they did get christened in a similar manner to the Serbs, plus they shared similar pagan traditions, so it could go either way. Plus, Slava is a Balkan phenomenon, so you can't add Russians or Poles to it.

[Novi Pazar]

Lmfao thanks again for being the bringer of truth. I didn't know Moses was a Serb and that god also wrote in Serbian until now. Are you a professor at the university of Belgrade?

Did your dumb Chipetar head search for Maniakos? Then I'll further my reasonings!


PS don't let your dumb Chipetar head get the better of you, l never said god was a Chipetar nor Moses, l said, "Serbs were such a massive nation that toponyms, Serbian, are found on mt. Sinai where Moses received the 10 commandments."

[RandoBloom]

Did your dumb Chipetar head search for Maniakos? Then I'll further my reasonings!

Jovan Deretic is strong in you :laugh:

[Novi Pazar]

Jovan Deretic is strong in you :laugh:

Ah, stupid boy, Deretic never wrote this, so try again! Who is Maniakos?

[RandoBloom]

Ah, stupid boy, Deretic never wrote this, so try again! Who is Maniakos?

Dere dere :D

[Novi Pazar]

^ Stupid boy!

[Kastrioti1443]

This Novi Pazar is more mongrel than i ever thought.... i mean a lot of serbs are mongrels and retarded from the gypsy, turkish and iranian blood in them, but this creature brings everything into a new level. This kind of person must either be sent to psychiatry or killed, he is a poison and useless parasite.

[Chieftain]

Mijaks came from central Shqiperia, ELBASAN!

If they are from Elbasan than they're fucked, since Elbasan is a city of conglomerate like racial makeup, whole lots of gypsies, vlachs and turkic leftover..if you are originally from Elbasan, anyone who might be from Elbasan that might explain their mongrel arabic swarthy midget looks!

[Kazimiera]

Please refrain from making statements regarding the murder of certain nationalities.

[Novi Pazar]

^ you can't expect compassion from Chipetars, they are all collectively the product of hoxja, some paranoid imbeciles!

[alb0zfinest]

Have you guys really sunk that low, that you waste your time with novi pazar?

[Novi Pazar]

This Novi Pazar is more mongrel than i ever thought.... i mean a lot of serbs are mongrels and retarded from the gypsy, turkish and iranian blood in them, but this creature brings everything into a new level. This kind of person must either be sent to psychiatry or killed, he is a poison and useless parasite.

Yes Chipetar, the weaklings who gave nena ottomana 30 grand viziers! Btw, the name 'Shqiptar' is such an indo-European name that all Aryans come from Dagestani Chipetars.

Your cousins Turks called you Arnaut, the ones who haven't returned to Nena Caucasus, homeland of Chechyna! Stupid Chipetar, get a life and grow something in that void in your f'ing Ugly inverted triangular head! Ugly and disgusting Chipetar!

[Novi Pazar]

Have you guys really sunk that low, that you waste your time with novi pazar?

Who can seriously talk with ugly Chipetars?

[Kastrioti1443]

Yes Chipetar, the weaklings who gave nena ottomana 30 grand viziers! Btw, the name 'Shqiptar' is such an indo-European name that all Aryans come from Dagestani Chipetars.

Your cousins Turks called you Arnaut, the ones who haven't returned to Nena Caucasus, homeland of Chechyna! Stupid Chipetar, get a life and grow something in that void in your f'ing Ugly inverted triangular head! Ugly and disgusting Chipetar!

Servs are the mongrels of europe, you filthy unibrow servian subhuman! Servs are unibrow mongrels like you, dirty wogs, mongrels, abomination of the earth! Servian subhuman, from Kazakistan, a mix of middle easterns, iranians, slavs, turks and gypsies, Arnaut means just Albanian in turkish , ugly Armenoid dirty servian wog, I spit on your dirty turko-gypsy face, prostitute off spring!

[Novi Pazar]

The name Shqiptar is non aryan you dumb Chipetar fool, as Arnauts, back to Dagestan you ugly rat!

[Novi Pazar]

Arnaut means, dumb Chipetar, the ones who haven't returned; meaning Dagestan, you ugly triangle headed Chipetar.

[Skerdilaid]

Pazar, tell us again the story of how the Chiptarian fucked your aunt;)


I have to say it's quite entertaining.
Pazar, I am waiting for the story.

[Crn Volk]

Arnaut means, dumb Chipetar, the ones who haven't returned; meaning Dagestan, you ugly triangle headed Chipetar.

lol at triangle head....so true:thumb001:

[Chieftain]

I think we should start exterminating mediterrean-like wogs as a beggining, they don't belong in Balkans or Europe.

[Novi Pazar]

I think we should start exterminating mediterrean-like wogs as a beggining, they don't belong in Balkans or Europe.

Arnaut Chipetars aren't natives to the helm/Balkans, they are from somewhere outside.

[Chieftain]

I'm a midget brown skinned, brown eyed subhuman wog invader of the Balkans

Will ye fuck off you armenoid scum?

[Crn Volk]

I think we should start exterminating mediterrean-like wogs as a beggining, they don't belong in Balkans or Europe.

Please do so, the population of albanians will drop dramatically. I'm sure all the Pontidish alboz on TA are shitting their pants....

[Novi Pazar]

^ Sokol these non-aryan Chipetari belong in the Caucasus'. We Serbs and Macedonians and other Slavs are the natives in our Helmsko. These wacky Germans who invented a migration theory have not a single historical document that backs their retarded claim that Slavs came down from the Baltic marshes. One would find it wacky that the name Serb, in its many forms: Serb, Srb, Serbo, Sarbo, Sardo, sarmatian, Sardinian, sarbadija etc....were named by others in half the world before the Slavs left their homeland of Baltics. Retarded Germans, their stories are retarded almost like these non-aryan Chipetars.

PS Do you remember a Chipetar singer crying on stage calling for Chipetars to have more children, the double headed chicken has come home to roost, their manipulated figures will bite their ugly Chipetar backsides hard!

[Pjeter Pan]

^ Sokol these non-aryan Chipetari belong in the Caucasus'. We Serbs and Macedonians and other Slavs are the natives in our Helmsko. These wacky Germans who invented a migration theory have not a single historical document that backs their retarded claim that Slavs came down from the Baltic marshes. One would find it wacky that the name Serb, in its many forms: Serb, Srb, Serbo, Sarbo, Sardo, sarmatian, Sardinian, sarbadija etc....were named by others in half the world before the Slavs left their homeland of Baltics. Retarded Germans, their stories are retarded almost like these non-aryan Chipetars.

PS Do you remember a Chipetar singer crying on stage calling for Chipetars to have more children, the double headed chicken has come home to roost, their manipulated figures will bite their ugly Chipetar backsides hard!

http://i.imgur.com/PayZKxC.jpg

[alb0zfinest]

I think we should start exterminating mediterrean-like wogs as a beggining, they don't belong in Balkans or Europe.

Bro lets be honest, you can't deal with me. :D

[Chieftain]

Please do so, the population of albanians will drop dramatically. I'm sure all the Pontidish alboz on TA are shitting their pants....

Not really, the population will stay the same since we ain't got no mongrel subhumans in my highlands/Dardania but the gypsies/vlachs/ashkalis will go, phenotypes like armenoid and east med are barely unexistant, it's all borreby-norid-dinarid up here.

Now in your case..I bet that you and Novi Pazar would be the first to get screwed, I believe we should start studying mongrel midget subhuman wogs like you in our group here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/group.php?groupid=554

[Novi Pazar]

^ non aryan Chipetar calling Slavs subhuman? It seems there is problems with maintaining population when a singer pleads for more children......the reality is, Chipetars are much less!

[kvarc]

is somebody going to report this Excalibur asshole already?

[Novi Pazar]

^Hilter is a dumb idiot like YOU, stupid Chipetar! Hitler was no authority on the matter you imbecile, even his Mein Kampf was written by someone else (monk from Vatican) and signed by him. Shqiptars as the prostitutes as they are even acted as dyllbers for the Germanic wacky nazi division, even the nazi's saw gayness with Chipetars! The old good symbol of ancient vincan swaztika was retardedly used for the wrong purpose, trust wacky Germans to F it up!

Gay Chipetar get back in your Dagestani hole and make love to your Ashik you filthy and ugly inverted triangle headed Shqiptar!

[Novi Pazar]

is somebody going to report this Excalibur asshole already?

Let the world see this ugly Chipetars hypocracy, I'll expose it......Chipetars love exposing themselves to their boy lovers called dyllbers!

[Crn Volk]

Not really, the population will stay the same since we ain't got no mongrel subhumans in my highlands/Dardania but the gypsies/vlachs/ashkalis will go, phenotypes like armenoid and east med are barely unexistant, it's all borreby-norid-dinarid up here.

Now in your case..I bet that you and Novi Pazar would be the first to get screwed, I believe we should start studying mongrel midget subhuman wogs like you in our group here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/group.php?groupid=554


It's all mosques up there too....

[Novi Pazar]

^ this dumb arnaut! who calls us sub-human lmao, will be irrevalant, if greater Shqiperia occurs! Muslims will be overwhelming majority, while the Christians will be less than 5%

[Kalimtari]

pomaže Bog


http://217.26.67.168/uploads/3/0/3062832/crnogorci.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll152/Vidovnjak/100.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-48x4k4dPHQw/UG2XlRI0s5I/AAAAAAAAA1Q/opuaTNK824w/s1600/cg+Kolasin.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVXXy31UHU0
:D

[Novi Pazar]

^ yes help Christian Albanians in Greater Shqiperia!

[Jehan]

Crna Gora was the last country who take independance from Serbia. Is it because there are a lot of serbians here or because good relations?

[RandoBloom]

Crna Gora was the last country who take independance from Serbia. Is it because there are a lot of serbians here or because good relations?

Kosovo is the last country to gain independence. Montenegro got it in 2006, Kosovo in 2008.
Montenegro recognised Kosovo :)

[StormBringer]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?135583-Montenegro-and-her-share-in-Serbian-national-development

[Jehan]

Kosovo is the last country to gain independence. Montenegro got it in 2006, Kosovo in 2008.
Montenegro recognised Kosovo :)

Kossovo is a country ? :D

[Methmatician]

Montenegro has many Serbs and was allied with Serbia in the Yugoslav Wars. Historically it was a Serbian state but today many wouldn't consider it so.

[Skerdilaid]

bump

[CommonSense]

They're nothing more than opportunistic criminals. Most of them don't even believe in this Neo-Dukljan identity they cooked up.

[00danieleinad00]

NO!!!

[Vožd]

Only difference between Montenegrins and (other) Serbs are local cultures, but other Serbs have local differences as well, just like majority European nations, even Montenegro have two diffrent local cultures: north (dinaric) and south medditeranian.

[Papastratosels26]

I think Montenegrins are similar to the Serbs. Imo

[Vožd]

I think Montenegrins are similar to the Serbs. Imo

Montenegrins, Montenegrin Serbs and Herzegovian Serbs, are not similar, but identical.

[Morlak]

Yes, and they are becoming more and more antiserbian as time goes on. Their ancestors would be ashamed.

[Ford]

They are the very definition of traitors and it's funny to see who voted "no" on this poll. They would sell their own mothers if it served them.

[Pribislav]

Yes, and they are becoming more and more antiserbian as time goes on. Their ancestors would be ashamed.

They are on good way to became Croatians.

Croatian ustashian anti-Serbian propaganda is strong in Montenegro for decades.

[Art23]

Serbs should move on. Montenegro is an independent country now.

What I personally find interesting is how they use euro as their currency not being part of the Eurozone.

[Papastratosels26]

Serbs should move on. Montenegro is an independent country now.

What I personally find interesting is how they use euro as their currency not being part of the Eurozone.Illegal activities.

[Ford]

Serbs should move on. Montenegro is an independent country now.

What I personally find interesting is how they use euro as their currency not being part of the Eurozone.

It's not about moving on. They can have their own state if they so desire, as they've been independent for centuries. The thing here is how they're willing to turn their back on literal brothers because it helps them. They have always been the strongest supporters of Serbdom and now all of a sudden they're something else.

[Morlak]

Serbs should move on. Montenegro is an independent country now.

What I personally find interesting is how they use euro as their currency not being part of the Eurozone.

Serbs never had any problems with independent Montenegro. It's the thing that they try to erase everything Serbian from Montenegro and they discriminate against Montenegrins who still see themselves as Serbs.

[Papastratosels26]

I wonder why Montenegro exists after all. They are Serbs.

I guess is a political issue?


Maybe Foreign interaction?

Reminds me the tactic

Divide and Conquer.

[Morlak]

They are on good way to became Croatians.

Croatian ustashian anti-Serbian propaganda is strong in Montenegro for decades.

Sad but true. I have more "love" for Croatian ustashe than I have for antiserbian Montenegrins.

[Pribislav]

Serbs never had any problems against independent Montenegro. It's the thing that they try to erase everything Serbian from Montenegro and they discriminate against Montenegrins who still see themselves as Serbs.

Modern Montenegro (since 2006) is anti-Serbia. They build own identity on anti-serbism.

Independent Montenegro in period 1878-1916 was Serbian national state. It was more Serbian than Serbia in many aspects.

Only similarity of modern Montenegro with Montenegro 1878-1916 is in the name of counrty, everything else is different.

[Ford]

I wonder why Montenegro exists after all. They are Serbs.

I guess is a political issue?


Maybe Foreign interaction?

Reminds me the tactic

Divide and Conquer.

They have no shame. Barking at Serbia and Serbs from their apartments in Belgrade. But it's important to note that not everyone is like this, not even those who identify as ethnic Montenegrins.

[Pribislav]

Sad but true. I have more "love" for Croatian ustashe than I have for antiserbian Montenegrins.

I agree.

Cetinje today is ustashian anti-Serbian stronghold on the same level as Čapljina, Ljubuški, Posušje, Široki Brijeg, Duvno, Livno, Imotski, Sinj and Gospić.

[RenaRyuguu]

No Serbia was under the wrong governmental rule so they decided to split

[Celine]

Is any Montengrin here?

[The Great Uniter]

Montenegrin women, the ethically Montenegrin women, are the sexiest women in the world. Depends on the type but that's the frequent tendency. Huge boobs, large upper body female frame, openly defined and long-rammus durably pronounced wide jaw, tall stature and prominently forward-extending brow and womanly orbital ridges are one actually in fact what truly defines Montenegrin ideal women.