Ukraine police storm main Kiev protest camp

[Loki]

Ukraine police storm main Kiev protest camp (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26249330)

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73071000/jpg/_73071346_kiev_aptn.jpg

Ukrainian police are storming the main anti-government protest camp in the capital, Kiev.

Loud explosions are taking place, fireworks are being thrown and water cannon have been deployed.

During the day, at least nine people were killed, including two policemen, as protesters and security forces clashed in the worst violence in weeks.

Security forces had earlier given protesters a deadline of 18:00 local time (16:00 GMT) to end the unrest.

Police had surrounded Independence Square - known locally as the Maidan - which has been the scene of a mostly peaceful protest camp since November.

Earlier, opposition leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk had insisted the protest camp would "not retreat a single step from here, from this Maidan".

"We have nowhere to retreat to, Ukraine is behind us, and Ukraine's future is ahead of us. No fear, only faith in our strength, only solidarity and unity, only mutual support."

Protest leader Vitaly Klitschko urged women and children to leave the square, saying he could not "exclude the possibility of use of force".

[Loki]

Good. About time. They should use live ammunition.

[Acquisitor]

Good. About time. They should use live ammunition.

it could get bloody there, I mean these "rebels" also have weapons. If they dont clean it up in a proper manner this could spread.

Yanukovich is gambling here

[glass]

finaly

[Loki]

it could get bloody there, I mean these "rebels" also have weapons. If they dont clean it up in a proper manner this could spread.

Yanukovich is gambling here

These protesters are violent revolutionaries who want to topple the government. The army should be sent in.

[RussiaPrussia]

good was about time, ukraine is a very poor country. People protesting all the time will cause massive economic damage and hunger if it keeps going on. These western sponsored terrorists should go into prison.

[Trun]

These protesters are violent revolutionaries who want to topple the government. The army should be sent in.

You either know nothing about politics or you're trolling again.

[RussiaPrussia]

You either know nothing about politics or you're trolling again.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGRXCgMdz9A

You dont know anything about politics. How about germany and usa look at themselves first, ukraine did just the same what america did with occupy wallstreet.

American and EU Media is just doing propaganda portraying occupy wallstreet as hippies and ukrainian neo nazis and chauvanist as freedom fighters and liberals.

[Acquisitor]

These protesters are violent revolutionaries who want to topple the government. The army should be sent in.

the army is a delicate tool, very delicate tool which also could take the opposite side should the opportunity present itself.

I don't have a side in these riots, I only hope that Ukrainian debt to Europe is rather small (too lazy to google for it).

[Loki]

You either know nothing about politics or you're trolling again.

I am being dead serious. If you can't see what the West is doing here you need to have your head examined.

[Loki]

good was about time, ukraine is a very poor country. People protesting all the time will cause massive economic damage and hunger if it keeps going on. These western sponsored terrorists should go into prison.

Totally agreed. These protests are going to cause massive economic damage to Ukraine. But Mother Russia will help out.

[Acquisitor]

Omg, Kiev has been sealed off for all incoming road traffic, also the main airport is diverting all incoming flights to somewhere else

this is quite serious

[glass]

there are alrdy up to 9 corpses (though only 2 confirmed), since thugs started 'peaceful' riots yesterday.

[Trun]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGRXCgMdz9A

You dont know anything about politics. How about germany and usa look at themselves first, ukraine did just the same what america did with occupy wallstreet.

American and EU Media is just doing propaganda portraying occupy wallstreet as hippies and ukrainian neo nazis and chauvanist as freedom fighters and liberals.

Police brutality is unjustifiable. Police is to protect people, not beat them.

Same happened in Bulgaria during protests against the government.


I am being dead serious. If you can't see what the West is doing here you need to have your head examined.

So West is faulty while Russia, a failed corrupted state, is right? Most of all, it's Ukrainian people's choice whom to be with.

[Acquisitor]

So West is faulty while Russia, a failed corrupted state, is right? Most of all, it's Ukrainian people's choice whom to be with.

80% of Ukrainian export goes to Russia. yes eighty %.

Ukraine needs money, and the EU cant offer it anything, I mean they offered like €700m over 5 years or so ? peanuts.

Russia has money to offer and is by far, far, far its biggest business partner.

In this case the choice is not really people's choice.

[Trun]

80% of Ukrainian export goes to Russia. yes eighty %.

Ukraine needs money, and the EU cant offer it anything, I mean they offered like €700m over 5 years or so ? peanuts.

Russia has money to offer and is by far, far, far its biggest business partner.

In this case the choice is not really people's choice.

What can Russia offer to Ukraine that the EU can't except for energy?

[Acquisitor]

What can Russia offer to Ukraine that the EU can't except for energy?

Russia gave Ukraine an emergency loan of $16 billion just a month or two ago. It also offered a 33.33% discount on energy. It also buys 80ù of their export.

The EU doesn't need anything from Ukraine, but Russia does.

Ukrainians are fooling themselves if they think they have a choice.

[Trun]

Russia gave Ukraine an emergency loan of $16 billion just a month or two ago. It also offered a 33.33% discount on energy. It also buys 80ù of their export.

The EU doesn't need anything from Ukraine, but Russia does.

Ukrainians are fooling themselves if they think they have a choice.

These money go to the Ukrainian oligarchy, which is mostly a Russian puppet. Not that potential European money won't go there as well.

But Europe can offer much more perspective. What will happen to Russia if suddenly the gas loses its price?

[Acquisitor]

wrong topic

[Windischer]

I am being dead serious. If you can't see what the West is doing here you need to have your head examined.

both west and russia are interfering in country whose thief-president turns coat and pulls ukraine deeper into debt, hoping he somehow comes out of this unscathed, while fanatic nationalist and fascist groups are playing at riots.

[glass]

These money go to the Ukrainian oligarchy, which is mostly a Russian puppet. Not that potential European money won't go there as well.

But Europe can offer much more perspective. What will happen to Russia if suddenly the gas loses its price?
perpective can not feed your stomach and warm your house:picard1:

[Acquisitor]

These money go to the Ukrainian oligarchy, which is mostly a Russian puppet. Not that potential European money won't go there as well.

But Europe can offer much more perspective. What will happen to Russia if suddenly the gas loses its price?

those are legitimate concerns.

but let see the reality: Ukraine had 23 years of being independent to improve its economy and to diversify it. And the country has failed.

so its forced to suck the old tit I'm afraid, luckily for Ukraine, the old tit is not only filled with milk, but is also willing to give some of it.

And no, I'm sure most of that money has not been stolen, Ukraine needed it badly, so there was no room to steal a large chunk of it.

[RussiaPrussia]

Police brutality is unjustifiable. Police is to protect people, not beat them.

Same happened in Bulgaria during protests against the government.



yeah and why is bulgaria ignored or not condemnd by EU? I tell ya because its not in russias sphere of influence

[Windischer]

perpective can not feed your stomach and warm your house:picard1:

perspective means that stomach and warm house will happen in future, too, and it also means a lot at financial markets.

[Loki]

Police brutality is unjustifiable. Police is to protect people, not beat them.


Bullshit. This is a revolution, and it needs to be nipped in the bud.



So West is faulty while Russia, a failed corrupted state, is right? Most of all, it's Ukrainian people's choice whom to be with.

You're obviously a Russia-hater.

[Acquisitor]

perspective means that stomach and warm house will happen in future, too, and it also means a lot at financial markets.

imagine they say "lasha tumbai" (slang for Russia goodbye), what then ? they lose their exports, have an enormous debt and no economy.

this could lead to a civil war and millions of casualties, the 1917-1922 civil war in Ukraine showed just what could happen in the country. if you google for that war, you will see it, there is still a lot of hate there.

if they want closer relations with the EU then its their right, but seeking these relations now is a not a good idea since it would lead to unforeseen consequences

my two cents.

[Loki]

both west and russia are interfering in country whose thief-president turns coat and pulls ukraine deeper into debt, hoping he somehow comes out of this unscathed, while fanatic nationalist and fascist groups are playing at riots.

It's rather the other way around. The US and EU are interfering in Ukraine, and help to foment these riots, even financing it.

Yanukovic is the democratically elected leader of the country. So much better than Yuschenko.

[Windischer]

those are legitimate concerns.

but let see the reality: Ukraine had 23 years of being independent to improve its economy and to diversify it. And the country has failed.

so its forced to suck the old tit I'm afraid, luckily for Ukraine, the old tit is not only filled with milk, but is also willing to give some of it.

And no, I'm sure most of that money has not been stolen, Ukraine needed it badly, so there was no room to steal a large chunk of it.

ukraine is torn between eastern oligarchy with oriental ways and western ukrainian nationalism with not-much-less oriental ways, and minor separatists (subcarpathia). its a perpetual conflict, its hard for government to administer such state as the government itself is inevitably aligned with one of 2 major factions.
the best option would be division peaceful division of ukraine into 3-4 states (depends on crimea).

[Windischer]

It's rather the other way around. The US and EU are interfering in Ukraine, and help to foment these riots, even financing it.

Yanukovic is the democratically elected leader of the country. So much better than Yuschenko.

both are interfering, and am quite sure that ukrainian nationalists and fascists arent financed by the west because they despise it as much as russia.
they used protests only as an excuse to ramp up some testosterone and play at riots.

[Acquisitor]

ukraine is torn between eastern oligarchy with oriental ways and western ukrainian nationalism with not-much-less oriental ways, and minor separatists (subcarpathia). its a perpetual conflict, its hard for government to administer such state as the government itself is inevitably aligned with one of 2 major factions.
the best option would be division peaceful division of ukraine into 3-4 states (depends on crimea).

that could also easily lead to a civil war.

[Windischer]

that could also easily lead to a civil war.

not if its peaceful ;) i dont think that easterners are willing to feed the west, the poor west cant say much and peripheral subcarpathia has a separatist movement anyway.
i have been wondering why rusyns in užhorod are silent and didnt use the opportunity to voice their demands but they probably dont want to ramp up things more. alas, užhorod was afaik the only town where local administration backed down willingly and in peaceful, non-violent way.

but again, it depends on russia. russia is too aggressive now and the eu too impotent.

[RussiaPrussia]

Funny how ukrainian protesters want to be part of the EU and be friends with germany. But its german politicians who fap to child porn made in ukraine and other eastern european countries

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/toronto-child-porn-investigation-leads-to-major-political-scandal-in-germany/article16914457/

http://en.boywiki.org/wiki/Azov_Films

look at the films its just disgusting. This is why western politicians want ukraine, they want to exploit even more ukrainian women and children.

[Acquisitor]

Funny how ukrainian protesters want to be part of the EU and be friends with germany. But its german politicians who fap to child porn made in ukraine and other eastern european countries

look at the films its just disgusting. This is why western politicians want ukraine, they want to exploit even more ukrainian women and children.

looks like you have given this a deep thought before posting it.

[Windischer]

...
ad subcarpathia: not sure if you understand the language
from: http://holosy.sk/khtos-za-svobodu-rusiny-za-svobodu
(contains a speck of outdated info - regional council of transcarpathia has already expressed support for majdan, but as i said - in peaceful way)

"Україна є так днесь розділена. На „прозападну“ часть, котра хоче до Европы, іґноруюча хто ся за два місцяці дістав міджі них і „проруську“, котра без огляду на то, ці бы там Свобода & partners были або ні, хоче одношіня з Москвов. Но а пак є ту Крым, котрый чує може шансу на незалежность. А тото найголовніше, котре нас інтересує – Закарпатя.
Закарпатя, котре ниґда в історії до Україны не належало і в тій державі ся властно лем зо дня на день очуло, шпеціфічно справує ся і в тій сітуації. Бо переважна часть жытельства не суть ани Українці, ани Руськы, але Русины, Мадярі, Румуны, Словаци... А якраз перед корінным народом бывшой Підкарпатьской Руси стоїть днесь вопрос, яку позіцію мати в сітуації, котра ся штораз веце ставать хаотічнов і нечітательнов. Без ясной проґнозы, якый властно буде завершальный резултат. Як видіти, Майдан там доднесь не нашов велику підтримку. А є то і лоґічне. По перше, ростуча сила націоналізму, яка росте коло Майдану, предці не може Русинам, котры там доднесь не мають свої права на цілодержавній уровни, забеспечіти ліпшу будучность, якраз наспак. Підпорити орґанізаторів як Свобода, котры бы ся могли дістати ку владі, бы могло быти на уровни народной самовражды. По друге, покля у Львові і Київі будуть на вшыткых споминати як на народных героїв, маю обаву, же кібы Русины зачали свій протестный Майдан, была бы то лем далша причіна, чом вказовати на Русинів як на сепаратістів, ворогив державы і было бы то потвержіньом того выдуманого пойму „політічне русиньство“. А одповідны бы могли скінчіти перед судом, як тому вже было і в минулости. Ани єдно ани друге але не значіть, же Русины „en bloc“ стоять за Януковичом, же суть проруськы і же не хочуть іти до Европы. Хоць і такы ся самособов, як в каждій сполочности, котра має плуралітны погляды, найдуть. Скоріше їх дотеперішню стримливость можеме брати як менше зло. Не давати причіну на ґвалт і несправедливость. Также де дале з той роспути?"

[Graham]

This seems too controversial. Perhaps the people should decide in a referendum on the Russia-EU issue, than to kill. The vote should be respected.

What is happening is quite un-European in todays time. Sad to hear about deaths.

[Nurzat]

ukraine has to get rid of its corrupt political class no matter what it decides then about the EU. the protests are not pro-european, are against the puppet politicians that do the oligarchs' game

[RussiaPrussia]

This seems too controversial. Perhaps the people should decide in a referendum on the Russia-EU issue, than to kill. The vote should be respected.

What is happening is quite un-European in todays time. Sad to hear about deaths.

define whats european? Europe was the only continent having mass murders like hitler in power.

[Graham]

define whats european? Europe was the only continent having mass murders like hitler in power.

Killing people on both sides. In todays time,.. it reminds me of Egypt, Libya and other Muslim states in the past years.

And stop playing up pedophilia, it belittles your cause. I don't even have a side in this.

[Acquisitor]

perpective can not feed your stomach and warm your house:picard1:

do you as a russian citizen/taxpayer mind that Ukraine is now just another leech on your country's body ?

[curupira]

It would be interesting to see how "the West" would react if Russia were interfering so directly in nearby regions, like Algeria or Tunisia, or somewhere else in the North, like in Scandinavia, close to Germany and the UK. How would they react if Russia interfered in Mexico so as to get anti-American politicians in power in Mexico?

[Windischer]

It would be interesting to see how "the West" would react if Russia were interfering so directly in nearby European regions, like Algeria or Tunisia, or somewhere else in the North, like in Scandinavia, close to Germany and the UK. How would they react if Russia interfered in Mexico so as to get anti-American politicians in power in Mexico?

ukraine borders eu, you know.


nearby European regions, like Algeria or Tunisia
uhh

[curupira]

The root of the problem is that Russia is too big, too powerful, it naturally controls Europe in geopolitical terms... they have too many resources, etc. Twice Europeans have invaded it, and twice they have failed. Often because of underestimating the huge bear Russia is. Hitler himself admitted he had underestimated them:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClR9tcpKZec&feature=player_embedded#at=297

[Windischer]

Twice Europeans have invaded it, and twice they have failed.

polish-lithuanian commonwealth held moscow since 1610 till 1612.

[Illancha]

do you as a russian citizen/taxpayer mind that Ukraine is now just another leech on your country's body ?
Glorious Empire needs to be restored at any cost even if it further degrades the living standards of the groveling peasants.

[Pure ja]

I am being dead serious.

That needs to be repeated.

[Pure ja]

80% of Ukrainian export goes to Russia. yes eighty %.

Ukraine needs money, and the EU cant offer it anything, I mean they offered like €700m over 5 years or so ? peanuts.

Russia has money to offer and is by far, far, far its biggest business partner.

In this case the choice is not really people's choice.

Do you mean it is decided by the oligarchs?

[Pure ja]

Bullshit. This is a revolution, and it needs to be nipped in the bud.


I just have to hope that you will be just as fervently opposing revolution if it might be instigated in Estonia by Kremlin a la 2007-style. Or in Latvia. Although based on your avatar, I am not betting on it.

[Damião de Góis]

Don't really know what's going on and why, but a member of the ukranian community here said on TV that this is a fight of the people of Ukraine against a corrupted regime.

[Tacitus]

I'd be more sympathetic to the protesters if I knew the US wasn't acting as an agitator, which isn't to say that the Russian government isn't offering their own support to Yanukovych. Ukraine's fate should be decided by Ukrainians, not Washington or Moscow, it just makes things infinitely worse.

[Windischer]

Don't really know what's going on and why, but a member of the ukranian community here said on TV that this is a fight of the people of Ukraine against a corrupted regime.

the regime is as corrupted as people, and politicians are only a sample of society. it begins with small "everyday" bribery and goes up to funneling taxpayer money from budget through 15 bank accounts into own pocket.

[Yaroslav]

Good. About time. They should use live ammunition.

I would long ago have blockaded and besieged the place if I was Yanukovych. Let the contrite go free, but if they are caught with treason again, it's death penalty. Yanukovych is a timid, weak, frail, feeble, wavering bastard and if the coup succeeds he'll deserve what he gets.

[Damião de Góis]

the regime is as corrupted as people, and politicians are only a sample of society. it begins with small "everyday" bribery and goes up to funneling taxpayer money from budget through 15 bank accounts into own pocket.

There's petty corruption everywhere unfortunately. But this seems more like the start of a civil war.

[Not a Cop]

polish-lithuanian commonwealth held moscow since 1610 till 1612.

Which was predicted by 15 years of famine, lack of ruller and constant fights for power, still were beaten up by bunch of peasents, but that's not the point.

Napoleon did also held Moscow in 1812 btw.


It would be interesting to see how "the West" would react if Russia were interfering so directly in nearby regions, like Algeria or Tunisia, or somewhere else in the North, like in Scandinavia, close to Germany and the UK. How would they react if Russia interfered in Mexico so as to get anti-American politicians in power in Mexico?

It seems, that you do'nt quet understand the situation, not mentioning the regionalism and ethnic make up of Ukraine.


ukraine has to get rid of its corrupt political class no matter what it decides then about the EU. the protests are not pro-european, are against the puppet politicians that do the oligarchs' game



Don't really know what's going on and why, but a member of the ukranian community here said on TV that this is a fight of the people of Ukraine against a corrupted regime.
True

[Windischer]

There's petty corruption everywhere unfortunately. But this seems more like the start of a civil war.

no, at least not yet.

[d3cimat3d]

good was about time, ukraine is a very poor country. People protesting all the time will cause massive economic damage and hunger if it keeps going on. These western sponsored terrorists should go into prison.

Ukraine has been dirt poor since the breakup of USSR, it's already so poor there's no way it can get any worse than it already is. The only direction from here is forward because Ukraine has been sitting in rock bottom for the last 2 decades making zero progress. The average Ukrainian lives very miserably. I feel really sorry for Ukrainians actually, I don't think they had a moment of steady peace and prosperity in their entire history but I have to say I'm still unconvinced about the seriousness of what's happening now in Ukraine.... does anyone remember the "orange revolution" which was supposed to be some symbolic moment of change for Ukraine, but nothing happened, just a dramatic scene with people waving orange flags. Anyway, good luck Ukraine.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ6eixK5fx4

[Windischer]

Which was predicted by 15 years of famine, lack of ruller and constant fights for power, still were beaten up by bunch of peasents, but that's not the point.

Napoleon did also held Moscow in 1812 btw.

i replied to curupira who thought there were only 2 invasions from west. not arguing why/how etc.

[Veneda]

polish-lithuanian commonwealth held moscow since 1610 till 1612.

It was a long time ago, but yes we were the first who did it in the world history

[Windischer]

It was a long time ago, but yes we were the first who did it in the world history

cmon. it was a long time ago ;)

[DeaththeKid]

It was a long time ago, but yes we were the first who did it in the world history

What about the Mongols?

[Veneda]

cmon. it was a long time ago ;)

Yes, it was and I have never claimed otherwise. We means PLC :)

[Veneda]

What about the Mongols?

Ask Russians :D

[DeaththeKid]

Ukrainian protesters taking refuge in Canadian embassy

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/ukraine-protesters-turn-to-canadian-embassy-for-refuge-from-police-clashes/article16940164/

[Windischer]

Yes, it was and I have never claimed otherwise. We means PLC :)

polak hivemind xD

[DeaththeKid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85WBb9xA9AI

[Acquisitor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85WBb9xA9AI

its always a bit ironic to see a primitive weapon like a $2 Molotov cocktail destroy an armored vehicle or a tank worth millions.

[Veneda]

What about the Mongols?

I never heard about Mongol tsar

Btw, On 4th November Russians celebrate the national holiday named Unity Day, Day of Moscow’s Liberation from Polish Invaders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_Day_(Russia))

[Mason8]

אם יש משהו שהיסטורי האנושית לימדה אותנו, הרצון לשלוט חזק יותר מכל ערך. שליטים יעשו הכל, יהרגו את כולם רק לא לוותר על השלטון. יש כמובן יוצאי דופן שויתרו מייד, אבל רק בגלל שלא היה להם כוח להתמודד עם המהפכה.

[Pure ja]

An Estonian as an observer of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe sharing her impressions: police brutality is incredible.
And as a sidenote - she is part of the Estonian Central Party and thus an ally with the Putin's party in RF.

http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudised/valismaa/mailis-reps-kiievist-vagivald-mida-siin-rahva-vastu-kasutatakse-on-uskumatu.d?id=67976209

[Jackson]

This seems too controversial. Perhaps the people should decide in a referendum on the Russia-EU issue, than to kill. The vote should be respected.

What is happening is quite un-European in todays time. Sad to hear about deaths.

Well you say that but in the last century or so we've been at the centre of two of the most destructive wars the planet has ever seen.

[Tacitus]

Well you say that but in the last century or so we've been at the centre of two of the most destructive wars the planet has ever seen.

I think by 'today' he means post-Cold War.

[d3cimat3d]

The Ukrainian police have shown strong restraint until now


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N65_UvvLuC4

[glass]

do you as a russian citizen/taxpayer mind that Ukraine is now just another leech on your country's body ?
not really, i do not like Ukraine, ukrainians and support their 'euro-integration'
though Ukraine will be split i would agree to help former Novorossiya or even their union with Russia
i am just trying to be reasonable here, when some clowns talk about freedom, 'people's will and 'peacefyl protesters'.

[glass]

polish-lithuanian commonwealth held moscow since 1610 till 1612.
Europe ends at Silesia's eastern border, then tataro-mongol land starts. Do not tell me you did not know it:D

[Hong Key]

I figured they would have waited til after Olympics, I guess not

RT now saying 25 dead
http://rt.com/news/kiev-police-rioters-chaos-616/

[glass]

9 policemen are dead as well
according to Interior Ministry
(in russian)http://mvs.gov.ua/mvs/control/main/ru/publish/article/984000
mini civil war basicaly
even arabs did not have so much victims in just one day

[Hong Key]

Live feed
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/02/18/watch-live-video-feed-shows-the-ongoing-crackdown-in-ukraine/

[Sarmatian]

It was a long time ago, but yes we were the first who did it in the world history

Wrong. You were the only one. Nobody else ever held Moscow for 2 years, not before you nor after.

[Sarmatian]

Police brutality is unjustifiable. Police is to protect people, not beat them.

Naive little boy. Police is to protect law and order... and beat the crap out of those who cross the line.


So West is faulty while Russia, a failed corrupted state, is right?

I don't think you're in position to judge Russia's fails.


What can Russia offer to Ukraine that the EU can't except for energy?

The one and only most important thing that is neccessary for an economy to prosper - market. EU don't have the ability to accomodate what Ukraine has to offer, in fact EU looking for new markets for it's own products. The main reason EU need's Ukraine is that new large body of people to consume EU's garbage. And not a single EU bureaucrat care where from will Ukrainians get the money to buy all this garbage so the future for the most of the country is simple - neverending prostitution.

[Zmey Gorynych]

do you as a russian citizen/taxpayer mind that Ukraine is now just another leech on your country's body ?
Russians are a specific nation ... don't give them food, give them fairy tales of might and greatness.


An Estonian as an observer of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe sharing her impressions: police brutality is incredible.
And as a sidenote - she is part of the Estonian Central Party and thus an ally with the Putin's party in RF.
Life, the greatest value of them all, has little to no value in Eastern Europe and the further east you go the worse it gets.

[Sarmatian]

Life, the greatest value of them all, has little to no value in Eastern Europe and the further east you go the worse it gets.

And to confirm your point I'll argue against this statement. 'Воля' is the greatest value of them all.

Воля або смертъ :cool:

[Zmey Gorynych]

And to confirm your point I'll argue against this statement. 'Воля' is the greatest value of them all.

Воля або смертъ :cool:
Well yes, that's what I meant the greatest value for normal people :D What you mentioned is valid only when the nation as a whole is about to be subjugated by an element which is percieved to be foreign yet the nation has no issue when it is subjugated by elements within the nation and that's a big problem in my book.

Russians are generally very submissive and it takes great calamities to get them to stand on their feet and show that will.

[Illancha]

Воля або смертъ
Iожалла я Маршо!

[Vlach]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/t1/1958386_724838024215598_505535103_n.jpg

[Sarmatian]

Well yes, that's what I meant the greatest value for normal people :D What you mentioned is valid only when the nation as a whole is about to be subjugated by an element which is percieved to be foreign yet the nation has no issue when it is subjugated by elements within the nation and that's a big problem in my book.

Russians are generally very submissive and it takes great calamities to get them to stand on their feet and show that will.

Воля is much more than just freedom of one's nation. It's free will to live your life as you wish and decide every single aspect of it by yourself. How you live, what you do, which direction you go, how you raise your kids, at every moment you make your own decision as you see fit without looking back at frames of social norms. A true master of your own life. No need no governors nor lawyers to tell what to do and how shall I do it. Just common sense and direct reality.

Cossacks used to live like that for centuries until 1917 and managed quite well, maintained their status of egalitarian freemen while being surrounded by hordes of strict hierarchical aristocratic society. Until them commies screwed everything. Anyway today many desire to bring back that old system.

But the rest of Russia indeed is very submissive and need a strong leader to guide them. Which in turn making them exposed to various exploits of, lets say, not the best parts of society.

[Farah]

Fucking police. Oppressive institution wherever they are, in any country.

[Loki]

Fucking police. Oppressive institution wherever they are, in any country.

It's not the police, it's the violent revolutionary protesters causing the problems.

[Acquisitor]

Fucking police. Oppressive institution wherever they are, in any country.

is the police always wrong ?

[Dandelion]

Police, a needed institution, but the saying 'the police is your friend' is rarely true of course. People who wish 'more blue on the street' for the reason of 'increased safety' probably don't know that a visible presence of a police force actually rather increases the feeling of insecurity. Of course slightly off topic here.

There have been casualties on both the police force side as on the protesters' side, shit is still very real over there in the Ukraine.

[Loki]

Very good article:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?115593-The-World-Faces-Nuclear-War-Because-of-US-aggression-against-Russia-says-Paul-Craig-Roberts

The experts concluded that should such a coup succeed, the consequences for Russia would be:

— Loss of Sevastopol as the base of the Russian Federation’s Black Sea Fleet;

— Purges of Russians in eastern and southern Ukraine, producing a flood of refugees;

— Loss of manufacturing capacities in Kiev, Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkov where contract work is done for the Russian military;

— Suppression of the Russian speaking population by forcible Ukrainianization;

— The establishment of US and NATO military bases in Ukraine, including in Crimea and the establishment of training centers for terrorists who would be set upon the Caucasus, the Volga Basin, and perhaps Siberia.

— Spread of the orchestrated Kiev protests into non-Russian ethnicities in cities of the Russian Federation.

[Acquisitor]

Very good article:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?115593-The-World-Faces-Nuclear-War-Because-of-US-aggression-against-Russia-says-Paul-Craig-Roberts
.

have the experts concluded what the consequences for Ukraine would be ? they would be beyond very dramatic.

[Ultra]

Very good article:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?115593-The-World-Faces-Nuclear-War-Because-of-US-aggression-against-Russia-says-Paul-Craig-Roberts

The experts concluded that should such a coup succeed, the consequences for Russia would be:

— Loss of Sevastopol as the base of the Russian Federation’s Black Sea Fleet;

— Purges of Russians in eastern and southern Ukraine, producing a flood of refugees;

— Loss of manufacturing capacities in Kiev, Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkov where contract work is done for the Russian military;

— Suppression of the Russian speaking population by forcible Ukrainianization;

— The establishment of US and NATO military bases in Ukraine, including in Crimea and the establishment of training centers for terrorists who would be set upon the Caucasus, the Volga Basin, and perhaps Siberia.

— Spread of the orchestrated Kiev protests into non-Russian ethnicities in cities of the Russian Federation.
Won't happen, though. I'm sure Russia will send troops in if things go too much out of hand. And USA, NATO nor EU will not be able to do anything about it. :)


Rest assured, comrade! :thumb001:

[Dandelion]

Won't happen, though. I'm sure Russia will send troops in if things go too much out of hand. And USA, NATO nor EU will not be able to do anything about it. :)


Like they did in Georgia over South Ossetia and Abkhazia? Well, very likely scenario I agree. I'm not comparing the Ukraine with Georgia, but the scenario is comparable enough if you ask me.

Still in this case I have sympathy toward the Ukrainian supporters (well I'm not exactly on anyone's side, because I'm not so much a fan of the EU; but the Ukrainian people I sympathize with). I didn't have much sympathy for Saakashvilli's regime and most Westerners were morally on Russia's side in that conflict. That is different in Ukraine here.

[Farah]

is the police always wrong ?

Yes they are..they are tools to protect authority (not legitimacy), to protect the safety of the ruling elite. Citizens are disposable to them, as evident from their behavior in any country you may see

[Acquisitor]

Yes they are..they are tools to protect authority (not legitimacy), to protect the safety of the ruling elite. Citizens are disposable to them, as evident from their behavior in any country you may see

so the police is always wrong :( ?

come on Farah, do you even realize how many psycho's there are in each country who would love to manifest their ideas into actions should the state not have the police to prevent them from doing so ?

[Farah]

so the police is always wrong :( ?

come on Farah, do you even realize how many psycho's there are in each country who would love to manifest their ideas into actions should the state not have the police to prevent them from doing so ?

Ok I admit there are some good police officers out there, who genuinely are good human beings, but I mean it as an institution as a whole. It's an instituional evil. They may protect us on a day-to-day basis but when it comes to serious situations, look at the outcome. How many innocents have the police brutalized? Tortured? Arrested? They are the best tools for state terror.

[Dandelion]

Police are a necessary institution. It's just important that the police isn't omnipresent in your country or gets granted diplomatic immunity when some of their officers act out of line. Power gets corrupted easily, but the same can be said about parliamentarians, diplomats, royalty, etc...

[Acquisitor]

Ok I admit there are some good police officers out there, who genuinely are good human beings, but I mean it as an institution as a whole. It's an instituional evil. They may protect us on a day-to-day basis but when it comes to serious situations, look at the outcome. How many innocents have the police brutalized? Tortured? Arrested? They are the best tools for state terror.

what's the alternative for the police ?

also limits of the police depend on the country and on the culture.

[Zmey Gorynych]

Воля is much more than just freedom of one's nation. It's free will to live your life as you wish and decide every single aspect of it by yourself. How you live, what you do, which direction you go, how you raise your kids, at every moment you make your own decision as you see fit without looking back at frames of social norms. A true master of your own life. No need no governors nor lawyers to tell what to do and how shall I do it. Just common sense and direct reality.

Cossacks used to live like that for centuries until 1917 and managed quite well, maintained their status of egalitarian freemen while being surrounded by hordes of strict hierarchical aristocratic society. Until them commies screwed everything. Anyway today many desire to bring back that old system.

But the rest of Russia indeed is very submissive and need a strong leader to guide them. Which in turn making them exposed to various exploits of, lets say, not the best parts of society.
I get the meaning of the word воля and all its subtleties. Cossacks are a particular case and even they've been tamed. Few people live according to their free will (let alone entire nations), russians are at the opposite end of this spectrum. I always use the french as the counter-example for russians. When you look at a frenchman you don't see the bravest thing that ever lived yet he has that culture of not taking shit, knowing when to say enough is enough. The russian one the other hand endures, suffers. One might say that this is an admirable quality, the stoicism, the stamina but in the end it destroys the man, the individual.

[Windischer]

too much drama and sci-fi made out of this
once crackdown at maidan square is finished, crackdown on poltava and cities in polesie, volyn, podolsko and galicia will continue. i bet my ass that regional administration in užhorod will adapt to situation peacefully and without need of a police intervention :D
maybe some incidents may happen but civil war? no.
modern ukrainian nationalist and fascist organizations dont have the power they once had. remember there was a war in western ukraine during late 1940s and attacks lasted well into 1950s. who heard about stepan bandera knows what am talking about. neo-banderists are mostly young men with fantasies of fighting for freedom, against zog and similar shit, not a partisan material, really.
and loki reads too much fantasy articles, they are ridiculous.

edited (i forgot one whole sentence!)

[Stefan_Dusan]

Воля або смертъ :cool:

There is Serbian saying: Bolje grob nego rob/Боље гроб него роб/Better grave than slave.

When Hitler's diplomats were thrown out of Belgrade, demonstrators were chanting this even though they knew that seemingly unstoppable Hitler would now invade Serbia (he was fresh off easy win in Paris, and isolating UK, as well as had nonaggression pact with USSR) who would be all on herself.

Also when US Airmen were shot down over Serbia, Draza Mihailovic's rebels took them and safe guarded them in the mountains away from German troops. The German troops saw this, knowing they couldn't win the mountains, the German command made ultimatum to the rebels to hand over the airmen or watch the villages under German command be burned to the ground. To one of the airmen Draza told him that saying, and next day the Germans burned the villages.

[Windischer]

as i said, the best for a normally working democracy, dividing ukraine would be the best. but sadly this is politically impassable at the moment. i know there are quite a lot of people from subcarpathia who would like to severe institutional ties with kiev. and i read some time ago about similar wishes in crimea (which already has autonomy unlike subcarpathia).
and we know that theres one external side, a certain federation, that doesnt wish democratic ukraine.

[Loki]

Some pics of the 'peaceful' protesters:

http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/000_was8324428.si.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/rtx18xm2.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/rtx192ax.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/000_par7796548.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/rtx192cu.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/rtx192p5.jpg

I feel sorry for the police:

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/000_par7796313.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/000_par7796408.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/000_ts-par7796341.jpg

[Vlach]

Some pics of the 'peaceful' protesters:


For some months they was peaceful ;).

[Windischer]

these people are called rioters, not protesters.
also, who called them peaceful?

[Pure ja]

It's not the police, it's the violent revolutionary protesters causing the problems.

Your word against the observer of the European Commission Parliamentary Assembly and also the member of a sister party of Putin's party.

There is also the third option that both are to blame.

[Loki]

also, who called them peaceful?

The Western media.

[glass]

these people are called rioters, not protesters.
also, who called them peaceful?
western politicians

[Windischer]

The Western media.

there were peaceful protesters and vast majority of them have left long ago. who calls these thugs peaceful protesters?

[Vlach]

Some pics of the 'peaceful' protesters:

http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/000_was8324428.si.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/rtx18xm2.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/rtx192ax.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/000_par7796548.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/rtx192cu.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/rtx192p5.jpg

I feel sorry for the police:

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/000_par7796313.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/000_par7796408.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/000_ts-par7796341.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DipJOV01Pr4

OK! Let's shoot womens :thumb001:

[Windischer]

i read that lviv declares independence (expected but meaningless imo). i wonder what will užhorod do now. if they keep silent and situation goes towards partition of ukraine (improbable), theyll be likely fked up and included into 1 state with lviv. if they go for independence as well and the central government gains upper hand, there will be repressions.

[RussiaPrussia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY2pxpwB98s

JUST DISGUSTING

[RussiaPrussia]

http://rt.com/files/news/22/95/a0/00/rtx18xm2.jpg

german uniforms

[Sarmatian]

as i said, the best for a normally working democracy, dividing ukraine would be the best. but sadly this is politically impassable at the moment. i know there are quite a lot of people from subcarpathia who would like to severe institutional ties with kiev. and i read some time ago about similar wishes in crimea (which already has autonomy unlike subcarpathia).
and we know that theres one external side, a certain federation, that doesnt wish democratic ukraine.

What people of Subcarpathia want? Full independence or joining some other state?

[Sarmatian]

Like they did in Georgia over South Ossetia and Abkhazia? Well, very likely scenario I agree. I'm not comparing the Ukraine with Georgia, but the scenario is comparable enough if you ask me.

Still in this case I have sympathy toward the Ukrainian supporters (well I'm not exactly on anyone's side, because I'm not so much a fan of the EU; but the Ukrainian people I sympathize with). I didn't have much sympathy for Saakashvilli's regime and most Westerners were morally on Russia's side in that conflict. That is different in Ukraine here.

The justification for Russia's attack on Georgia was based on the fact that Georgian army attacked Russian peacekeepers stationed at the border between Georgia and South Ossetia. Russia's actions were fully legitimate according to international laws.

The situation in Ukraine has nothing in common with what happened in Georgia. There are no Russian citizen involved in the Ukrainian crisis thus there are no legal grounds for Russia to take an action. The only possible scenario for Russia to move in if Ukrainian government will admit its own inability to maintain law and order and will ask for external assistance in the task. But they may as well ask UN or directly US/NATO to send troops in. Even if Ukrainians will only ask Russia UN may intervene and demand for peacekeepers from different countries to take a part in the operation. Which than can be viewed as occupation by some Ukrainians with possibility of full scale war.

This may be a start of some big troubles for entire Europe.

[Äijä]

The justification for Russia's attack on Georgia was based on the fact that Georgian army attacked Russian peacekeepers stationed at the border between Georgia and South Ossetia. Russia's actions were fully legitimate according to international laws.

The situation in Ukraine has nothing in common with what happened in Georgia. There are no Russian citizen involved in the Ukrainian crisis thus there are no legal grounds for Russia to take an action. The only possible scenario for Russia to move in if Ukrainian government will admit its own inability to maintain law and order and will ask for external assistance in the task. But they may as well ask UN or directly US/NATO to send troops in. Even if Ukrainians will only ask Russia UN may intervene and demand for peacekeepers from different countries to take a part in the operation. Which than can be viewed as occupation by some Ukrainians with possibility of full scale war.

This may be a start of some big troubles for entire Europe.

This is very serious, end the Olympics and things might escalate, this has been handled so badly, they are still shooting, no ceasefire.

[Loki]

This is very serious, end the Olympics and things might escalate, this has been handled so badly, they are still shooting, no ceasefire.

Putin will become involved again once the Olympics is over.

[Äijä]

Putin will become involved again once the Olympics is over.

Finland could mobilize if Russia invades Ukraine, it is too close, it could escalate to the Baltic. This is BS, not the new year I hoped for.

[Loki]

Finland could mobilize if Russia invades Ukraine, it is too close, it could escalate to the Baltic. This is BS, not the new year I hoped for.

Come on. Russia is not going to invade Ukraine. What I mean is Putin will counter some of the ridiculous statements of Obama.

[Äijä]

Come on. Russia is not going to invade Ukraine. What I mean is Putin will counter some of the ridiculous statements of Obama.

You cant be certain that they wont if there is a civil war. The arming of Russians in the East might start conflicts in the Baltics where there are large Russian populations.
This is a text book escalation scenario we have, this is very dangerous, really.

[Sarmatian]

Finland could mobilize if Russia invades Ukraine, it is too close, it could escalate to the Baltic. This is BS, not the new year I hoped for.

Russia won't invade, only send in peacekeepers if asked to. And at least 2/3 of Ukraine will accept it. Russians consider Ukrainians to be close relatives so for most part they will be protective of civilian population.

On the other hand NATO peacekeepers can be considered as invaders by large number of Ukrainians. I've read about attitude of NATO soldiers in occupied territories of ex-Yugoslavia, they were close to Nazis in their treatment of locals, in some aspects even worse. If the same thing will take place in Ukraine there will be partizan war which may grow into an open conflict between Euroepan countries.

But all that can happen only if Ukrainian government will not be able to resolve the crisis.

I don't think Finns should be concerned, Belarus is a good and reliable buffer and of Baltic states only Estonia could get involved, other two will prefer to remain neutral.

[Äijä]

Russia won't invade, only send in peacekeepers if asked to. And at least 2/3 of Ukraine will accept it. Russians consider Ukrainians to be close relatives so for most part they will be protective of civilian population.

On the other hand NATO peacekeepers can be considered as invaders by large number of Ukrainians. I've read about attitude of NATO soldiers in occupied territories of ex-Yugoslavia, they were close to Nazis in their treatment of locals, in some aspects even worse. If the same thing will take place in Ukraine there will be partizan war which may grow into an open conflict between Euroepan countries.

But all that can happen only if Ukrainian government will not be able to resolve the crisis.

I don't think Finns should be concerned, Belarus is a good and reliable buffer and of Baltic states only Estonia could get involved, other two will prefer to remain neutral.

What do you mean? If Estonia is involved Finland will mobilize, for defense, but that is certain.

[Loki]

Russia won't invade, only send in peacekeepers if asked to. And at least 2/3 of Ukraine will accept it. Russians consider Ukrainians to be close relatives so for most part they will be protective of civilian population.

On the other hand NATO peacekeepers can be considered as invaders by large number of Ukrainians. I've read about attitude of NATO soldiers in occupied territories of ex-Yugoslavia, they were close to Nazis in their treatment of locals, in some aspects even worse. If the same thing will take place in Ukraine there will be partizan war which may grow into an open conflict between Euroepan countries.

But all that can happen only if Ukrainian government will not be able to resolve the crisis.

I don't think Finns should be concerned, Belarus is a good and reliable buffer and of Baltic states only Estonia could get involved, other two will prefer to remain neutral.

Russia will not accept any NATO involvement in Ukraine.

[Loki]

What do you mean? If Estonia is involved Finland will mobilize, for defense, but that is certain.

Russia is not going to attack Finland. It is paranoia.

[Äijä]

Russia is not going to attack Finland. It is paranoia.

We where talking about conflict in Baltics, Finland will then mobilize, that is the way our system works.

[Sarmatian]

What do you mean? If Estonia is involved Finland will mobilize, for defense, but that is certain.

The emphasis should be on the word 'could'. It is very unlikely. If NATO will get involved at all they will most likely use Poland as a base for their operations.

[Sarmatian]

Russia will not accept any NATO involvement in Ukraine.

What if UN will demand both sides to participate in peacekeeping operation? Russia not US, it's very unlikely to act against UN demands.

[Äijä]

The emphasis should be on the word 'could'. It is very unlikely. If NATO will get involved at all they will most likely use Poland as a base for their operations.

I dont think NATO does nothing, I am worried the Russians in the Baltic are used for something sinister.

[Äijä]

What if UN will demand both sides to participate in peacekeeping operation? Russia not US, it's very unlikely to act against UN demands.

Security council decides..

[Sarmatian]

I dont think NATO does nothing, I am worried the Russians in the Baltic are used for something sinister.

My impression so far only Russians in Estonia have serious problems with locals, others doing more or less fine. But regardless there is no legal justification for Russia's activities in Estonia and frankly speaking no gain for Russia so why bother.

The only possibility here is if the crisis in Ukraine will escalate and if NATO get involved Estonia might try to use the situation to gain some political weight. In other words Estonia may start barking uncontrollably at The Bear which may produce some tensions. But this scenario involves too many 'ifs' concerning too many stupid people.

[Äijä]

My impression so far only Russians in Estonia have serious problems with locals, others doing more or less fine. But regardless there is no legal justification for Russia's activities in Estonia and frankly speaking no gain for Russia so why bother.

The only possibility here is if the crisis in Ukraine will escalate and if NATO get involved Estonia might try to use the situation to gain some political weight. In other words Estonia may start barking uncontrollably at The Bear which may produce some tensions. But this scenario involves too many 'ifs' concerning too many stupid people.

Russia might try to "correct" the border that is too close to St.Petersburg, that is called a limited gains conflict their doctrine.

[Äijä]

Anyone know if the reports of Crimea and Donetsk oblasts asking fro Russians intervention are true?

[Hong Key]

Putin is very by the books from what I've seen. He has been very careful not to break international laws. He would work towards a legal solution IMO. The problem come's if he's says F it, "I'm done playing games". Although most likely it would be the US that said F it. Now we got WW3. this sucks.

The Anglo-American hostile elites have wanted there NWO for a long time. Something or someone is holding them back. It may be Russia/Germany or other force(s) of some sort. Every so often it looks like the Anglo's are gonna go for it and then don't. I hope this is another time they pull back. It's one thing to be pushy and another thing to push the button.

Also before Ukraine the trends looked like the US was pulling back with 3d printing, mining there own resources, pulling out of the middle east (at least some what). If that's true why were they doing that? And why are they potentially causing havoc in E Europe now? There's probably 100 other question I can't think of now.

See you at the barracks comrades.

[Sarmatian]

Russia might try to "correct" the border that is too close to St.Petersburg, that is called a limited gains conflict their doctrine.

Such a 'correction' will result in some territorial gain (but aren't Russia big enough already?) and political loss that will require a lot of time and work to compensate for. It's very irrational.

[Hong Key]

Anyone know if the reports of Crimea and Donetsk oblasts asking fro Russians intervention are true?

There is only one article I could find.

In the Black Sea region of Crimea, part of Russia until 1954, there are calls for the government in Moscow to intervene, while some in the Russian-speaking eastern industrial heartland are seeking more autonomy. Should Yanukovych be forced from power, Russia may encourage Ukrainian regions loyal to it to secede, according to Forbrig.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-19/ukraine-divisions-prompt-civil-war-warning-as-troops-crack-down.html

[Äijä]

Such a 'correction' will result in some territorial gain (but aren't Russia big enough already?) and political loss that will require a lot of time and work to compensate for. It's very irrational.

That could happen with Ukraine, that lowers the bar elsewhere.

[Äijä]

There is total battle in the square, anyone have feed, they cut the cameras?

[Hong Key]

There is total battle in the square, anyone have feed, they cut the cameras?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/02/18/watch-live-video-feed-shows-the-ongoing-crackdown-in-ukraine/

[Hong Key]

i think this is live
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ukraine-protests-recap-updates-armoured-3159677

[Sarmatian]

A Ukrainian reporter has died of a gunshot wound after masked men attacked him on the way home in central Kiev. His colleagues suspect the attack was not accidental.

The journalist, Vyacheslav Veremyi, of the local “Vremya” (“Time”) pro-government newspaper died early on Wednesday morning of a gunshot to the chest while doctors were trying to save him.

Taken from here

http://rt.com/news/ukrainian-journalist-kiev-attack-739/

'Peaceful' protesters taking out anyone who can question their peacefulness. They also openly yell at police they know everyone by names, know their wives and kids identities and there will be personal revenge to any police officer who will take any action against protesters.

[Sarmatian]

Anyone know if the reports of Crimea and Donetsk oblasts asking fro Russians intervention are true?

In Crimea public activists has beaten down all the protesters and authorities declared if any illegitimate elections will take place Crimea will secede from Ukraine and most likely will join Russia.

[Kiyant]

Taken from here

http://rt.com/news/ukrainian-journalist-kiev-attack-739/

'Peaceful' protesters taking out anyone who can question their peacefulness. They also openly yell at police they know everyone by names, know their wives and kids identities and there will be personal revenge to any police officer who will take any action against protesters.

What? Well RIP to the journalist.........
Also what will happen with the crimean Tatars when Russia takes Crimea?

[Äijä]

In Crimea public activists has beaten down all the protesters and authorities declared if any illegitimate elections will take place Crimea will secede from Ukraine and most likely will join Russia.

We need a peace plan, every oblast votes for its future, if there are borders changes this is one time deal, borders in Europe have to be secure no matter who lives where.
Russia promises to stop any meddling to the Baltic countries internal matters or declaring spheres of any kind.
That is a good deal for Crimea and Donetsk and other areas with out a shot or gas money loss.

[Sarmatian]

Also what will happen with the crimean Tatars when Russia takes Crimea?

Same thing that happened to Kazan Tatars... nothing. Stalin is gone mate. They can live in Crimea peacefully and nobody will trouble them.

[Sarmatian]

We need a peace plan, every oblast votes for its future,...

Won't work. I hope you realize all this 'protests' have little to do with desires of ordinary citizen but rather carefully orchestrated political games of big powers.

[Kiyant]

Same thing that happened to Kazan Tatars... nothing. Stalin is gone mate. They can live in Crimea peacefully and nobody will trouble them.

No i didnt mean deportation or something like that i meant for example like creating a federal republic like Tatarstan or simply integrating them into the normal Tatars.
Also i support Yanukovich in this

[Sarmatian]

No i didnt mean deportation or something like that i meant for example like creating a federal republic like Tatarstan or simply integrating them into the normal Tatars.
Also i support Yanukovich in this

Not sure on this one. They might get the status of minority with all subsequent benefits. Also I don't think they will need a separate administrative entity, they have Crimea already.

[Kiyant]

Not sure on this one. They might get the status of minority with all subsequent benefits. Also I don't think they will need a separate administrative entity, they have Crimea already.

Right also i have an update about the cossaks who were harassing some Ahiska in Krasnodar.
They stopped it after a new politician (i dont know if new mayor or something else) and are now quite friendly

[Sarmatian]

Right also i have an update about the cossaks who were harassing some Ahiska in Krasnodar.
They stopped it after a new politician (i dont know if new mayor or something else) and are now quite friendly

Yeah because Meskheti Turks gained a bad name in Krasnodar in 1990s. Apparently when they moved from Kazakhstan (or Uzbekistan?) there was some drug dealing mob among them which negative reputation spread on all Turks. But now the issue is resolved and tensions are down.

[Kiyant]

Yeah because Meskheti Turks gained a bad name in Krasnodar in 1990s. Apparently when they moved from Kazakhstan (or Uzbekistan?) there was some drug dealing mob among them which negative reputation spread on all Turks. But now the issue is resolved and tensions are down.

Yeah i also heard that but now tat the tension is over they get quite well in krasnodar since Ahiska were always loyal people.
But i fear the return of Stalinists since 2 years suddenly Stalin became a good person again and this isnt a good thing
Also i dont want to offend you or anything can you pls call us Ahiska because Meskheti Turk was a soviet invention for us.

[Äijä]

Won't work. I hope you realize all this 'protests' have little to do with desires of ordinary citizen but rather carefully orchestrated political games of big powers.

So ordinary citizens dont want to be either Ukrainians or Russians?

[Sarmatian]

So ordinary citizens dont want to be either Ukrainians or Russians?

Ordinary citizen have little say on the matter. Protests orchestrated by very active and very well organized mob of some 'freedom fighters', the rest are naive cannon fodder.

It's all basically coming down to a struggle between local pro-Russian financial elite and Western corporate powers for market. Local elite are obviously cunts but they are lesser cunts because they are local, at least they live there.

[Kiyant]

Ordinary citizen have little say on the matter. Protests orchestrated by very active and very well organized mob of some 'freedom fighters', the rest are naive cannon fodder.

It's all basically coming down to a struggle between local pro-Russian financial elite and Western corporate powers for market. Local elite are obviously cunts but they are lesser cunts because they are local, at least they live there.

True

[Äijä]

Ordinary citizen have little say on the matter. Protests orchestrated by very active and very well organized mob of some 'freedom fighters', the rest are naive cannon fodder.

It's all basically coming down to a struggle between local pro-Russian financial elite and Western corporate powers for market. Local elite are obviously cunts but they are lesser cunts because they are local, at least they live there.

I know there are extreme factions on both sides but you cant force majority to fight a civil war, if you are right there will be no escalation then.

[Äijä]

Finnish reporters say over 50 dead at least today, they are carrying the dead and wounded to hotels for doctors to perform emergency surgery, priests are giving last rites.
The opposition holds the square and streets next to it but there are military trains moving in Kiev.
Source is Finnish reporters, anyone can confirm or correct.

[Sarmatian]

Finnish reporters say over 50 dead at least today, they are carrying the dead and wounded to hotels for doctors to perform emergency surgery, priests are giving last rites.
The opposition holds the square and streets next to it but there are military trains moving in Kiev.
Source is Finnish reporters, anyone can confirm or correct.

If military moving in it will be over soon. Unless stupid politicians will hold them back.

[Äijä]

Some reports of fighting in Poltava, it is an important industrial center to my knowledge so mention that also.

[Acquisitor]

jeez, look what they did with the centre of Kiev :\

http://varlamov.me/2014/-/DSC_8724140220budlon.jpg

[Äijä]

People are lying on the train tracks to stop the military trains..they might be all nazis but they are committed nazis. :rolleyes:

Source, Finnish woman in Twitter, she lives in Ukraine.

[Kiyant]

jeez, look what they did with the centre of Kiev :\

http://varlamov.me/2014/-/DSC_8724140220budlon.jpg

In Kiev it became a total disaster my fathers cousin lives there and some "protestors" are gangin on people and ask them if they are againt them or for Yanukovich if you say for Yanukivich they beat you up its crazy.............

[Hweinlant]

Putin fucked this one up. Total miscalculation from his side. He thought he can create his Neo-Russian Empire by buying Yanukovych. He and his administration are already so delusional and far away from the people that they actually thought they don't have to worry about normal, average Ukrainians. Too bad for him, now he and his Ukrainian Party-of-Regions lackeys have full scale armed revolution in their hands. Ukraine Has Not Yet Died!

[Zmey Gorynych]

I never thought things will get that serious in Ukraine. 35 dead today !? :shocked:

[Kiyant]

I never thought things will get that serious in Ukraine. 35 dead today !? :shocked:

It gets more crazy Kievs center became a total warfield

[Acquisitor]

In Kiev it became a total disaster my fathers cousin lives there and some "protestors" are gangin on people and ask them if they are againt them or for Yanukovich if you say for Yanukivich they beat you up its crazy.............

imagine what happens if it gets more serious. If you have time learn about the Reds vs Whites civil war in 1917-1922, Ukraine has been by far the bloodiest place during the war. All the differences are still out there, the country is still divided and still poor. A possible Ukrainian revolution could get very bloody, without a power to fix it. This is not Libya which someone can bomb, this is a European nation with an army.

[Äijä]

I never thought things will get that serious in Ukraine. 35 dead today !? :shocked:

More than 50, hundreds of wounded, there is street fighting, more guns every hour. Paratroopers are moving for Kiev.

[Acquisitor]

Putin fucked this one up. Total miscalculation from his side. He thought he can create his Neo-Russian Empire by buying Yanukovych. He and his administration are already so delusional and far away from the people that they actually thought they don't have to worry about normal, average Ukrainians. Too bad for him, now he and his Ukrainian Party-of-Regions lackeys have full scale armed revolution in their hands. Ukraine Has Not Yet Died!

the bigger question is: what will Ukrainians eat if they don't accept being Russia's property ?

[Kiyant]

imagine what happens if it gets more serious. If you have time learn about the Reds vs Whites civil war in 1917-1922, Ukraine has been by far the bloodiest place during the war. All the differences are still out there, the country is still divided and still poor. A possible Ukrainian revolution could get very bloody, without a power to fix it. This is not Libya which someone can bomb, this is a European nation with an army.

My father told his cousin to get out as soon as possible (he has a russian passport) i dont know what would happen to him if he gets caught with that by those "people"

[Acquisitor]

My father told his cousin to get out as soon as possible (he has a russian passport) i dont know what would happen to him if he gets caught with that by those "people"

My last grandmother lives in Krivoy Rog, a very industrial town in the middle of the country, she is 84 but still healthy and kicking, she lives on a pension, while we do financially help her sometimes, there is noway to get her out of there.

[Äijä]

Also the police has taken casualties, most from gunfire, the reason they are moving the army now I would think.
There are snipers on the roofs, could be both sides now.

[Hweinlant]

More than 50, hundreds of wounded, there is street fighting, more guns every hour. Paratroopers are moving for Kiev.

Regime has setted up snipers who will take out (head shots) the national militia fighters and even paramedics. It's confirmed by several western journos.

http://i62.tinypic.com/xc57ox.png

Ukrainian regime has lost it's legitimacy.

[Kiyant]

My last grandmother lives in Krivoy Rog, a very industrial town in the middle of the country, she is 84 but still healthy and kicking, she lives on a pension, while we do financially help her sometimes, there is noway to get her out of there.

Hope for her that nothing happens.......

[Äijä]

the bigger question is: what will Ukrainians eat if they don't accept being Russia's property ?

I would rather take Ukrainian refugees than Syrians, we need doctors and nurses for sure.

[Hweinlant]

the bigger question is: what will Ukrainians eat if they don't accept being Russia's property ?

Potatoes and meat. Sure, they will have few though years ahead of them but why couldnt they make it ? Think of Poland in 90's and now.

[Zmey Gorynych]

More than 50, hundreds of wounded, there is street fighting, more guns every hour. Paratroopers are moving for Kiev.
This has to be the most violent riot in Europe since the romanian revolution, a little over 1000 died then.

[Äijä]

Regime has setted up snipers who will take out (head shots) the national militia fighters and even paramedics. It's confirmed by several western journos.

http://i62.tinypic.com/xc57ox.png

Ukrainian regime has lost it's legitimacy.

Man in the right could be Putin. :rolleyes:

[Äijä]

This has to be the most violent riot in Europe since the romanian revolution, a little over 1000 died then.

This is civil war, this is Balkans.

[Hweinlant]

This is the paramedic-volunteer (Olesya Zhukovskaya) who regime snipers shoot into neck.

http://i62.tinypic.com/2virvhc.png

She is dead now. There are pictures of her bleeding, but I wont post them. I dont think there is going back anymore. It will only escalate more.

[Äijä]

My last grandmother lives in Krivoy Rog, a very industrial town in the middle of the country, she is 84 but still healthy and kicking, she lives on a pension, while we do financially help her sometimes, there is noway to get her out of there.

Well she should be safe, you can try to get her to an embassy maybe?

[Acquisitor]

Well she should be safe, you can try to get her to an embassy maybe?

I called her, she says its very quiet in her town so she is not concerned.

[Kiyant]

Well she should be safe, you can try to get her to an embassy maybe?

What would happen if they would catch my fathers uncle with a russian passport?
Nothing or would they attack him he already told us how there were people being beaten up for supporting Yanukivich

[Äijä]

I called her, she says its very quiet in her town so she is not concerned.

Good, the embassy and visa route wont be open for long, they are preparing for evacuation.

[Sarmatian]

Regime has setted up snipers who will take out (head shots) the national militia fighters and even paramedics. It's confirmed by several western journos.

http://i62.tinypic.com/xc57ox.png

Ukrainian regime has lost it's legitimacy.

What are you talking about? Those 'peaceful' protesters running around with rifles for quite some time already. What do you think government should do? Negotiate while police being shot at?

FYI The president suggested to start negotiations recently and was supported by moderate opposition such as Klichko. But radical group on the side of protesters has literally told them both to fuck off and kept throwing Molotov's at police. These neo-nazis want blood and no less... well they will get it.

[Sarmatian]

I never thought things will get that serious in Ukraine. 35 dead today !? :shocked:

In June my cousin from Kiev told me there is a 80-90% chance of full scale civil war. Here you go.

[Zmey Gorynych]

FYI The president suggested to start negotiations recently and was supported by moderate opposition such as Klichko. But radical group on the side of protesters has literally told them both to fuck off and kept throwing Molotov's at police. These neo-nazis want blood and no less... well they will get it.
Who are the leaders (leader) of the radicals !?

[Kiyant]

What are you talking about? Those 'peaceful' protesters running around with rifles for quite some time already. What do you think government should do? Negotiate while police being shot at?

FYI The president suggested to start negotiations recently and was supported by moderate opposition such as Klichko. But radical group on the side of protesters has literally told them both to fuck off and kept throwing Molotov's at police. These neo-nazis want blood and no less... well they will get it.

Would Russia do something for people with Russian passports if something would happen to them?

[Shkembe Chorba]

Murders.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9_5uXJ_I1E

[Acquisitor]

Would Russia do something for people with Russian passports if something would happen to them?

the east of Ukraine is a totally safe ground for someone with a russian passport.

[Kiyant]

the east of Ukraine is a totally safe ground for someone with a russian passport.

Well my fathers cousin tries to go there hope nothing happens to him because Kiev isnt safe at the moment

[Sarmatian]

Who are the leaders (leader) of the radicals !?

Don't remember the names atm but they are all from Western Ukraine.

Одним словом - бандэровцы ;)

[Äijä]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fns42rViXlA&feature=youtu.be

This is not good way to handle this, this will just make the conflict bigger with the Western world, these men could have been arrested.

Yes we are weak in that many of our citizens think things like gay rights or animal furs are the most pressing issue in the world, but, we have to live in the same continent, this stuff will take us to cold war-

[Äijä]

Would Russia do something for people with Russian passports if something would happen to them?

They will invade, it is in the new constitution, that is why this can spread to anywhere that has Russians.

[Kiyant]

Police forces now can use armed weapons i think it will get much worse from now on

[Kiyant]

They will invade, it is in the new constitution, that is why this can spread to anywhere that has Russians.

I hope my relative can get out and this situation wouldnt come

[Hweinlant]

What are you talking about? Those 'peaceful' protesters running around with rifles for quite some time already. What do you think government should do? Negotiate while police being shot at?


Regime opened fire this morning when the "national militia" was able to push them back from the Maydan square. After that they (Berkut/Police) opened fire. There may have been individual shootings before that but it's clear that the regime holds responsibility what has happened today. They changed the rules of the game and now the fire is free. Regime is not only targeting the "right sector" militants but also ambulances, volunteer-paramedics and just simple by-standers.



FYI The president suggested to start negotiations recently and was supported by moderate opposition such as Klichko. But radical group on the side of protesters has literally told them both to fuck off and kept throwing Molotov's at police. These neo-nazis want blood and no less... well they will get it.

That's not exactly how it went but yes, Yanukovych has been trying to buy time for himself. Just to get past the Sochi2014.

Ps. The paramedic girls is alive, just seriously injured. That's good news after all.

[Sarmatian]

They will invade, it is in the new constitution, that is why this can spread to anywhere that has Russians.

This is actually correct. Russia can use defense of its passport holders in Ukraine as an excuse for invasion. But they will receive a warm welcome from many Ukrainians, especially at East and South.

[Kiyant]

This is actually correct. Russia can use defense of its passport holders in Ukraine as an excuse for invasion. But they will receive a warm welcome from many Ukrainians, especially at East and South.

Well that means if my relative got caught and we would alarm the russian embassy Russia would have a reason to intervene?

[Acquisitor]

This is actually correct. Russia can use defense of its passport holders in Ukraine as an excuse for invasion. But they will receive a warm welcome from many Ukrainians, especially at East and South.

lets not dramatize things :) riots in a part of the capital is not such a big deal (yet)

[Hweinlant]

What kind of troops are these ?

http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/25270710.html

They dont look like the riot police (Berkut), they just have yellow brassards, no unit identification etc. Not regular troops that's for sure. The sniper has no identification (ie. no uniform).

[Äijä]

This is actually correct. Russia can use defense of its passport holders in Ukraine as an excuse for invasion. But they will receive a warm welcome from many Ukrainians, especially at East and South.

Hence my scenario of this spreading to Baltic as a worse case scenario.

[Hweinlant]

Interesting, Russian special ops already infiltrated to Kyiv ?

http://img.tyzhden.ua/Content/PhotoAlbum/2014/02_2014/20/shevron2.jpg

Could just be propaganda.

[Äijä]

What kind of troops are these ?

http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/25270710.html

They dont look like the riot police (Berkut), they just have yellow brassards, no unit identification etc. Not regular troops that's for sure. The sniper has no identification (ie. no uniform).

Who is the yellow when we have war games? :rolleyes:

[Hweinlant]

Who is the yellow when we have war games? :rolleyes:

I only care about who are the reds ;)

Seriously tho', the sniper has no identification. Not even the yellow arm band.

[Sarmatian]

Regime opened fire this morning when the "national militia" was able to push them back from the Maydan square. After that they (Berkut/Police) opened fire. There may have been individual shootings before that but it's clear that the regime holds responsibility what has happened today. They changed the rules of the game and now the fire is free. Regime is not only targeting the "right sector" militants but also ambulances, volunteer-paramedics and just simple by-standers.

That's not exactly how it went but yes, Yanukovych has been trying to buy time for himself. Just to get past the Sochi2014.

Ps. The paramedic girls is alive, just seriously injured. That's good news after all.

There is some strong confidence in that post. Like if you're actually in Kiev and personally participating in some events.

To me all information we have at hands is coming from other people who present this information according to their personal preferences.


What kind of troops are these ?

http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/25270710.html

They dont look like the riot police (Berkut), they just have yellow brassards, no unit identification etc. Not regular troops that's for sure. The sniper has no identification (ie. no uniform).

Interestingly these troops are armed with old AKMs. Those are not in use by regular army for quite a long time.

[Äijä]

I only care about who are the reds ;)

Seriously tho', the sniper has no identification. Not even the yellow arm band.

Speculation but they could be, having no markings would fit. Did not check weapons or gear yet, they could be something else, they move semi casually in that footage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Group

[Acquisitor]

Interestingly these troops are armed with old AKMs. Those are not in use by regular army for quite a long time.

wow, using ak-47's in a city battle, so odd idd. it's possible that their army is too poor to afford newer/better weapons + over there a general feeling of that particular weapon's superiority is still alive.

[Äijä]

Interestingly these troops are armed with old AKMs. Those are not in use by regular army for quite a long time.

Reason for that being they left their usual stuff to not display it, what has the sniper got?

[Sarmatian]

lets not dramatize things :) riots in a part of the capital is not such a big deal (yet)

Yes it's not big enough yet. I was only talking about legal grounds for military action. Not sure about exact extent of violence needed to trigger it.

[Sarmatian]

Reason for that being they left their usual stuff to not display it, what has the sniper got?

Can see a 'security' signs on their backs. They're probably some private security personnel employed by government.

Sniper rifle looks like Ukrainian Zbroyar Z-008

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/sniper/sn106/z-008_5.jpg

[Sarmatian]

wow, using ak-47's in a city battle, so odd idd. it's possible that their army is too poor to afford newer/better weapons + over there a general feeling of that particular weapon's superiority is still alive.

By 1980 AKM was out of usage in USSR, the entire army was switched to AK-74. That means these folks were armed just now quickly with whatever was available.

[Äijä]

Can see a 'security' signs on their backs. They're probably some private security personnel employed by government.

Sniper rifle looks like Ukrainian Zbroyar Z-008

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/sniper/sn106/z-008_5.jpg

The security sign is for 90% probability a hoax like the guns.

[Acquisitor]

By 1980 AKM was out of usage in USSR, the entire army was switched to AK-74. That means these folks were armed just now quickly with whatever was available.

odd, they have to have an enormous supply of ak74's, which is also absolutely not a modern weapon, especially for city battles, but its still much better than the old 47.

I remember visiting Ukraine in 2004, and among several things we had to go to the army near Kiev. Some corrupted general rented a place for our Ukrainian client to use as a warehouse (lol), anyway I remember the soldiers there, all of them had ak-47's.

I think its just a sign of poverty of the state/army

[Hweinlant]

There is some strong confidence in that post. Like if you're actually in Kiev and personally participating in some events.


That's the chronology provided by pretty much all journos at the site (including the Russian ones). I've been lurking on and off at #euromaidan all day. There are tons of tweets from people at site, obviously all want to paint things like they prefer but the big picture is pretty clear.

[Hweinlant]

Can see a 'security' signs on their backs. They're probably some private security personnel employed by government.


That would be really weird, security guards hired by government to shoot at people. That would be sign of major dissidence in police and army.



Sniper rifle looks like Ukrainian Zbroyar Z-008



How hard/easy it would be for normal, regular citizen to buy that kind of riffle at Ukraine ?

[Sarmatian]

odd, they have to have an enormous supply of ak74's, which is also absolutely not a modern weapon, especially for city battles, but its still much better than the old 47.

I remember visiting Ukraine in 2004, and among several things we had to go to the army near Kiev. Some corrupted general rented a place for our Ukrainian client to use as a warehouse (lol), anyway I remember the soldiers there, all of them had ak-47's.

I think its just a sign of poverty of the state/army

They must've sold all their AK74's :laugh:

AK74 is 5.45 and behave like a hollow point ammunition. The wounds would be devastating and a number of casualties would be high. AKM is 7.62, it will just go straight through a body so chances of killing are lower.

[Sarmatian]

That would be really weird, security guards hired by government to shoot at people. That would be sign of major dissidence in police and army.

Or simply some regular unit was equipped with uniforms from private company to cover their identity.


How hard/easy it would be for normal, regular citizen to buy that kind of riffle at Ukraine ?

It's impossible.

[Acquisitor]

They must've sold all their AK74's :laugh:

AK74 is 5.45 and behave like a hollow point ammunition. The wounds would be devastating and a number of casualties would be high. AKM is 7.62, it will just go straight through a body so chances of killing are lower.

yup, when I noticed that they were indeed armed with 47's I thought "did they sell all of their 74's to Africa in the 90's?"

I know the difference between the two version is quite big, yet in 2014 ak74 is not a modern weapon, despite of it being more deadly and accurate than the 47.

[Äijä]

Or simply some regular unit was equipped with uniforms from private company to cover their identity.





I did find pictures and video of Alpha using yellow armbands as identification.

[Windischer]

No i didnt mean deportation or something like that i meant for example like creating a federal republic like Tatarstan or simply integrating them into the normal Tatars.
Also i support Yanukovich in this

taking political side is wrong, both sides are polarized and extreme and stupid.


Think of Poland in 90's and now.

its incomparable. northwestern and central ukraine are among the poorest areas of europe.

[Hweinlant]

I did find pictures and video of Alpha using yellow armbands as identification.

Seriously ? These guys are like the top dogs of Security Service ? Usually these units have best available weapons&gear. Ukrainian version uses stuff from 1970's and wear black gestapo leather jackets. Right Sector militants will win this, with only using power slingshots.

[Äijä]

Seriously ? These guys are like the top dogs of Security Service ? Usually these units have best available weapons&gear.

Would they use that gear if they are covert, they dont need it against those protesters.
There is also Vympel and countless other possibilities, but they are not armed street thugs either.

[Graham]

Ukraine going all Syria. Using snipers to kill citizens.

[Pure ja]

The justification for Russia's attack on Georgia was based on the fact that Georgian army attacked Russian peacekeepers stationed at the border between Georgia and South Ossetia. Russia's actions were fully legitimate according to international laws.


Nope.
Russia's actions would have been fully legitimate IF Russian troops were there as neutral peacekeepers and perceived as neutral peacekeepers and would have behaved like neutral peacekeepers. They weren't, and that was also noted in the international report on the conflict.




The situation in Ukraine has nothing in common with what happened in Georgia.


That remains to be seen.
For you to be right, when a need for peacekeeping troops arises, Russia should NOT participate in those peacekeeping troops.



There are no Russian citizen involved in the Ukrainian crisis thus there are no legal grounds for Russia to take an action.


There are claims to the contrary.

[Pure ja]

Russia won't invade, only send in peacekeepers if asked to. And at least 2/3 of Ukraine will accept it. Russians consider Ukrainians to be close relatives so for most part they will be protective of civilian population.

On the other hand NATO peacekeepers can be considered as invaders by large number of Ukrainians. I've read about attitude of NATO soldiers in occupied territories of ex-Yugoslavia, they were close to Nazis in their treatment of locals, in some aspects even worse. If the same thing will take place in Ukraine there will be partizan war which may grow into an open conflict between Euroepan countries.


There are other options.
Finland is not part of NATO. Neither is Sweden. Nor Switzerland. Nor New Zeeland. Nor Australia. The list is long.
Russia is not a better option for peacekeeping than NATO, quite the opposite actually.




But all that can happen only if Ukrainian government will not be able to resolve the crisis.

I don't think Finns should be concerned, Belarus is a good and reliable buffer and of Baltic states only Estonia could get involved, other two will prefer to remain neutral.

Would you care to elaborate how Estonia could get involved? We just signed the new border treaty with Russia a few days back. You get Izborsk. Waiting for ratifications.

Does it mean that Russia really does not want to take the sliced parts of Setomaa and Vadjamaa?

[Pure ja]

Russia will not accept any NATO involvement in Ukraine.

That is an attitude of a sovereign empire.

[Pure ja]

Russia is not going to attack Finland. It is paranoia.

Paranoia to mobilize for defense?
Do you suggest that one should only mobilize for offense?

[Pure ja]

What if UN will demand both sides to participate in peacekeeping operation? Russia not US, it's very unlikely to act against UN demands.

Russia has repeatedly acted against UN demands.

[Pure ja]

My impression so far only Russians in Estonia have serious problems with locals, others doing more or less fine. But regardless there is no legal justification for Russia's activities in Estonia and frankly speaking no gain for Russia so why bother.

The only possibility here is if the crisis in Ukraine will escalate and if NATO get involved Estonia might try to use the situation to gain some political weight. In other words Estonia may start barking uncontrollably at The Bear which may produce some tensions. But this scenario involves too many 'ifs' concerning too many stupid people.

How is barking enough as a reason to invade?

[Pure ja]

Won't work. I hope you realize all this 'protests' have little to do with desires of ordinary citizen but rather carefully orchestrated political games of big powers.

That is all the more reason for a unified peace plan among the people, because big powers never achieve true peace.

[Hweinlant]

EU just grew a pair. Sanctions for Yanukovych regime. Accounts freezed, visas cancelled etc. Didn't see that coming. I thought they will just "utterly condemn violence from both sides".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26280710

[Pure ja]

Ordinary citizen have little say on the matter. Protests orchestrated by very active and very well organized mob of some 'freedom fighters', the rest are naive cannon fodder.

It's all basically coming down to a struggle between local pro-Russian financial elite and Western corporate powers for market. Local elite are obviously cunts but they are lesser cunts because they are local, at least they live there.

I read yesterday-today that local elite (multibillionaires) has demanded Yanukovich to refrain from human casualties. I guess he disappointed them, and they lose some market share in the EU.

[Pure ja]

If military moving in it will be over soon. Unless stupid politicians will hold them back.

If by over you mean 1000 more dead or so, then it will only be the beginning.

[Hweinlant]

Would they use that gear if they are covert, they dont need it against those protesters.
There is also Vympel and countless other possibilities, but they are not armed street thugs either.

Apparently they are not "black ops".

"The Ukrainian Security Service and Antiterrorist Center are beginning an antiterrorist operation in the country, Ukrainian Security Service Head Oleksandr Yakymenko said in a statement released on Wednesday."
https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/yakymenko-ukrainian-special-services-begin-antiterrorist-operation-2-337145.html

They just do have such a crappy equipment.

[Hweinlant]

This is pretty serious if true:

Wounded Berkut soldier was just identified in the hospital as one from Russian military forces by his tattoo (https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPR/status/436575280061493248)

[Äijä]

EU just grew a pair. Sanctions for Yanukovych regime. Accounts freezed, visas cancelled etc. Didn't see that coming. I thought they will just "utterly condemn violence from both sides".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26280710

Actually this leaves no way out for the goverment, they are pushed to Russias lap for good, picking sides will make EU a party, not an mediator.
Waiting for those Ukrainians refugees in Finland, maybe send Somalis back to Russia where they came from.

Oh and welcome new cold war. :thumb001:

[Illancha]

This is certainly not how I expected WW3 would start.

[Äijä]

Apparently they are not "black ops".

"The Ukrainian Security Service and Antiterrorist Center are beginning an antiterrorist operation in the country, Ukrainian Security Service Head Oleksandr Yakymenko said in a statement released on Wednesday."
https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/yakymenko-ukrainian-special-services-begin-antiterrorist-operation-2-337145.html

They just do have such a crappy equipment.

Link no work for me, was there a picture?

[Pure ja]

In Kiev it became a total disaster my fathers cousin lives there and some "protestors" are gangin on people and ask them if they are againt them or for Yanukovich if you say for Yanukivich they beat you up its crazy.............

Do you also write of the poets tortured and kidnapped by the government forces?

[Hweinlant]

Link no work for me, was there a picture?

It's overloaded. There is just info that "Ukrainian KGB" started anti-terrorist operation against her own people and will use firearms when doing so. Their newly appointed (by Yanuk) chief is guy called Oleksandr Hryhorovych Yakymenko. So that's atleast one guy who needs to send his family to their mansion at UK before the visas get cancelled ;D

[Matt5898]

This is pretty serious if true:

Wounded Berkut soldier was just identified in the hospital as one from Russian military forces by his tattoo (https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPR/status/436575280061493248)

don't think this is true
fro example this tweet https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPR/status/436464027300937730 is just a bs, you can buy such things anywhere in Russian souvenir shops (i.e. in Ukrainian too). I have similar sign in my table, don't even remember how I got it.

[Tacitus]

Hot off the wire: http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-leader-announces-39-truce-39-start-talks-212036733.html;_ylt=AwrBEiSXVgZTlAUA.rLQtDMD

[Vlach]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1/1970935_574511812645132_460373742_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t31/q88/s720x720/1559557_1470490706512207_1258491139_o.jpg

[Pure ja]

What are you talking about? Those 'peaceful' protesters running around with rifles for quite some time already. What do you think government should do? Negotiate while police being shot at?

FYI The president suggested to start negotiations recently and was supported by moderate opposition such as Klichko. But radical group on the side of protesters has literally told them both to fuck off and kept throwing Molotov's at police. These neo-nazis want blood and no less... well they will get it.

Sure, that is why Yanukovich did not want to chat with Merkel and Barroso was it?
It is quite clear that both sides are escalating the conflict. Yanukovich is much to blame.

[Hweinlant]

Hot off the wire: http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-leader-announces-39-truce-39-start-talks-212036733.html;_ylt=AwrBEiSXVgZTlAUA.rLQtDMD

What a character that guy is. EU threatens freeze assets -> Yanuk immediately surrenders, wants to keep stolen millions.

Rumour: BEAKING Unconfirmed Report: Yanukovich's family plane has just landed in Heathrow |PR News (https://twitter.com/EuromaidanEUROP/status/436584783758770176)

[Pure ja]

Actually this leaves no way out for the goverment, they are pushed to Russias lap for good, picking sides will make EU a party, not an mediator.
Waiting for those Ukrainians refugees in Finland, maybe send Somalis back to Russia where they came from.

Oh and welcome new cold war. :thumb001:

The sanctions are not against Yanukovich personally, at least not yet.
The list will be published in two days.

[Hweinlant]

LOL, 64 private VIP flights departing/departed from Ukrainian main airport.

http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/989544

Party-of-Regions crooks sending their families to evil, evil degenerate west.. Afraid that their visas will get cancelled.

[Kiyant]

Do you also write of the poets tortured and kidnapped by the government forces?

I dont know about them just telling what a relative told me

[Hweinlant]

The sanctions are not against Yanukovich personally, at least not yet.
The list will be published in two days.

Yanukovych's son has built a business empire worth of hundreds of millions of € in just 2-3 years (Yanuk's term in office). I'm no rocket scientist but I know how it must have been done. Money is probably in off-shore accounts but the hard assets (mansions, stocks) are within the borders of EU.

[Pure ja]

I dont know about them just telling what a relative told me

OK. I was too harsh on you.
One always has to worry about one's relatives.
You just sounded one-sided, that's all.

[Kiyant]

OK. I was too harsh on you.
One always has to worry about one's relatives.
You just sounded one-sided, that's all.

No problem since my relative has a russian passport he is in quite danger in Kiev at the moment

[Hweinlant]

Ukrainian parliament voted to withdraw "police" from the streets and stop killing the people.

http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/02/20/7015330/

I wonder if the "police" obey or is it already too far ?

[bimo]

These money go to the Ukrainian oligarchy, which is mostly a Russian puppet. Not that potential European money won't go there as well.

But Europe can offer much more perspective. What will happen to Russia if suddenly the gas loses its price?

if ukraine join EU don't think that much things change , just they become EU puppet instead of russian , oligarchy is oligarchy no matter if they are under EU or russia