Why are South Germans so different from North Germans?

[JQP4545]

Here is a plot from the MDLP World 22:

44778

Notice that South German is much closer to the Balkans. Where/when does this come from?

[Beit El]

South Germans, Austrians and Swiss are descendants of Germanized Celts I believe, not actual Germanics.

[Jackson]

Yeah, South Germans are a fairly even mix of original Germanics and Celts, and in some areas more Celtic than Germanic, while northern Germans are mostly original Germanics, with a little Celtic influence:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Germanic_Europe.gif

[JQP4545]

Who were the original Celts though? Weren't they R1bers or Western Europeans?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

They are more paleo, I am guessing.

Swiss ethnicity, center of 'alpinism' has the oldest provable genetic continuity in europe.

I don't think that they came from celts, though I am sure many were celticized.

No one knows for sure about celts. I think they formed from iberia originally but that's not certain. Others say they came from iran or even india. There might be some relation between all these places as it's a meta ethnicity that covered a very wide area.

[Smeagol]

Who were the original Celts though? Weren't they R1bers or Western Europeans?

They originated in Southern Germany. Original Celts, and Germanics, like all early Indoeuropeans were racially similar though.

[Rochefaton]

Looks like the difference in the Europeans in that plot is clinal with northern and eastern Euros being pulled towards what I would assume is ANE-like (Ancient North Eurasian) ancestry, whereas the western and southern Euros are being pulled the opposite way probably due to increased EEF-like (Early European Farmer) ancestry. I would also imagine Germans from the north are more ANE influenced than their countrymen from the south who are more EEF influenced.

As others have already stated, the Germanic cultural expansion came from the north, so you would expect southern Germans to carry less ancestry from the original Germanic population than ze Germans from the north.

[Jackson]

Who were the original Celts though? Weren't they R1bers or Western Europeans?

Typically they are dominated by R1b-P312 haplotypes and have high levels of R1b overall. In the more Gaulish areas P313(L21x U152x) and U152 are more common while in most of the British Isles and parts of northern France L21 is typically dominant. Germanic populations are generally united by having high levels of R1b-U106, or at least high compared to their neighbours. Although north Germanics often have low R1b-U106, except around the North Sea.

[Lábaru]

Good question, but not as good as this one, why the Iberians are different from the Spaniards?
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44778&d=1393026430

[Beit El]

Good question, but not as good as this one, why the Iberians are different from the Spaniards?
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44778&d=1393026430

I assume Iberian = Spaniards + Portuguese, not just Spaniards.

[Lábaru]

I assume Iberian = Spaniards + Portuguese, not just Spaniards.

That makes sense.

[AndreasMeyer]

South Germans, Austrians and Swiss are descendants of Germanized Celts I believe, not actual Germanics.

Post some typical South German and some typical North German examples!!!

[Argang]

Looks like the difference in the Europeans in that plot is clinal with northern and eastern Euros being pulled towards what I would assume is ANE-like (Ancient North Eurasian) ancestry, whereas the western and southern Euros are being pulled the opposite way probably due to increased EEF-like (Early European Farmer) ancestry. I would also imagine Germans from the north are more ANE influenced than their countrymen from the south who are more EEF influenced.

As others have already stated, the Germanic cultural expansion came from the north, so you would expect southern Germans to carry less ancestry from the original Germanic population than ze Germans from the north.

It's likely something like that. In this PCA where Mal'ta boy, who represents the "ANE", is added, some South Germans cluster with French, and the most "northern" ones cluster with Scandinavians, clearly closer to Mal'ta.

http://i62.tinypic.com/2z9ace8.jpg

Note that in the more important horizontal Dimension 1 the most northern Germans are even closer to Mal'ta than Chuvash and Mari, who are geographically much closer to Mal'ta boy's region. Population changes have likely reduced ANE component in every population living to the east of its current peak region, Finland and Baltic countries, but I would like to see the results for some East Karelians, Vepsians and isolated Pomors.

[HillY35]

I think this thread does a PERFECT job of answering the lingering question on the forum lately about the difference between Celtic and Germanic. This is the first time I've found myself concentrating, in an effort to understand, on the forum in several months.

[JQP4545]

Maybe this is one reason:

44780

Haplogroup G is higher in the South so maybe more Caucasus ancestry.

[JQP4545]

http://resourcesforhistory.com/map.htm

Here is an interactive map of the Roman and Celtic lands. Maybe Southern Germans are different for the same reasons as Italians; they brought in people from around the Empire as soldiers and slaves.

[Lábaru]

http://resourcesforhistory.com/map.htm

Here is an interactive map of the Roman and Celtic lands. Maybe Southern Germans are different for the same reasons as Italians; they brought in people from around the Empire as soldiers and slaves.

a very inaccurate map

[Beit El]

http://resourcesforhistory.com/map.htm

Here is an interactive map of the Roman and Celtic lands. Maybe Southern Germans are different for the same reasons as Italians; they brought in people from around the Empire as soldiers and slaves.

The difference between the southern-Germans and northern-Germans is because they're simply two different peoples, their very beginning is different. Any other influence is negligable compared to that.

[Geminus]

If you look closely at the chart you can see that the "German" sample is much nearer at the "North-German" than the "South-German" sample.
So if we assume that the German sample is the combination of the South- and North-German sample, the South-German sample is much smaller than the North-German sample.
Smaller samples are more likely to larger variations, this could also be an explanation.

[JQP4545]

Here is a plot from the MDLP World 22:

44778

Notice that South German is much closer to the Balkans. Where/when does this come from?

Also notice that South German does not plot near Austria or Hungary.

[JQP4545]

Here's my mom's oracle:

Pct. Calc. Option 1

1 German-South 65.91%
2 British 24.69%
3 North-East-European 5.23%
4 West-Asian 3.36%
5 Saami 0.77%
6 Norwegian_V 0.02%
7 Swiss 0.02%
8 CEU 0.00%
9 Romania 0.00%
10 Roma 0.00%

Known ancestry is 50% South German, 12.5% French Canadian, 37.5% Irish...Seems fairly accurate.

[JQP4545]

Pct. Calc. Option 2

0 Unable to determine 0.02%
1 German-South 47.18%
2 Norwegian_V 20.61%
3 North-East-European 7.38%
4 West-Asian 5.71%
5 Swedish_V 5.21%
6 Basque 4.97%
7 Spaniard 4.39%
8 Iberian 2.67%
9 Atlantic_Mediterranean_Neolithic 1.88%
10 Saami 0.01%

[Damião de Góis]

Here is a plot from the MDLP World 22:

44778

Notice that South German is much closer to the Balkans. Where/when does this come from?


Try Dodecad or Eurogenes plots. MDLP says i'm swiss.

[Peyrol]

Yeah, South Germans are a fairly even mix of original Germanics and Celts, and in some areas more Celtic than Germanic, while northern Germans are mostly original Germanics, with a little Celtic influence:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Germanic_Europe.gif

Wtf...why these nucleous in Campania and Sicily?

[JQP4545]

Try Dodecad or Eurogenes plots. MDLP says i'm swiss.

Its the only one with South German.

[Damião de Góis]

Its the only one with South German.

Ok, but take its accuracy with a grain of salt.

[JQP4545]

Ok, but take its accuracy with a grain of salt.

Actually the accuracy seems pretty good. My mom is about 65% South German and French and 35% Irish and the program gives 65% South German and 25% British.

[JQP4545]

Try Dodecad or Eurogenes plots. MDLP says i'm swiss.

That could be accurate. Some Spanish may overlap with Swiss.

[JQP4545]

Think Roger Federer, he could pass as Spanish.

[Damião de Góis]

That could be accurate. Some Spanish may overlap with Swiss.

I'm not spanish, and my World-22 seems far from accurate:

http://oi60.tinypic.com/29uwtmq.jpg

So if it produces these results with me, i can't say much about its accuracy.

[Jackson]

That could be accurate. Some Spanish may overlap with Swiss.

Yeah the problem is that MDLP has inaccurate oracle results for people who weren't included in the actual run, so your results are comparable to other people who weren't in the run but the oracle will pull those people away from where they actually are and towards the centre, Dodecad seems to have the same problem. Use Eurogenes and see if you get the same results to be certain.

[JQP4545]

Yeah the problem is that MDLP has inaccurate oracle results for people who weren't included in the actual run, so your results are comparable to other people who weren't in the run but the oracle will pull those people away from where they actually are and towards the centre, Dodecad seems to have the same problem. Use Eurogenes and see if you get the same results to be certain.

EUTest:


Pct. Calc. Option 1

1 West_&_Central_German 42.91%
2 English 25.71%
3 FR 22.20%
4 Tuscan 6.19%
5 AT 2.99%
6 RO 0.00%
7 PT 0.00%
8 ES 0.00%
9 North_Italian 0.00%
10 Sardinian 0.00%

Seems similar, although I don't know what "AT" is...

[Jackson]

EUTest:


Pct. Calc. Option 1

1 West_&_Central_German 42.91%
2 English 25.71%
3 FR 22.20%
4 Tuscan 6.19%
5 AT 2.99%
6 RO 0.00%
7 PT 0.00%
8 ES 0.00%
9 North_Italian 0.00%
10 Sardinian 0.00%

Seems similar, although I don't know what "AT" is...

At is Austria, if you added up the West and Central German, French and Austrian it's probably altogether not that far from South German, and then you have the 25% English, and a pull to the south (Tuscan).

[JQP4545]

44789

The plots make more sense, with Austria being further South...

[JQP4545]

South Germans are representative of Europe as a whole. Pretty much neutral European...

[Shuffle]

I think we South-Germans tend to be more mixed since the South was under roman rule for a long time especially Bavaria south of the Danube, there was some indigenous population (Rhaeti, Norici), there was population settled by the romans and at least there were some german tribes, there has allways been more or less intensive traffic through the alps, so there was migration from North-Italy still in later times especially through Tyrol, that's a rather different history compared to North-Germany.

[Geminus]

I think we South-Germans tend to be more mixed since the South was under roman rule for a long time especially Bavaria south of the Danube, there was some indigenous population (Rhaeti, Norici), there was population settled by the romans and at least there were some german tribes, there has allways been more or less intensive traffic through the alps, so there was migration from North-Italy still in later times especially through Tyrol, that's a rather different history compared to North-Germany.

Did the Romans really settle there? I think the Roman influence was rather weak. To me South-Germany seems mostly Germanic with Celtic and some Slavic influences in the East.
But for example Bavaria is even more mixed today, as about 1/4 to 1/3 of the population come from expelled people from the Sudetenland and the Eastern German territories.

[Shuffle]

Cambodunum, Augusta Vindelicorum, Castra Regina, Boiotro, Iuvavum... of course there were Settlement during the Roman times, no doubt of it. There were the Rhaeti and the Norici as indigenous Population and probably settlers from all over the empire, and places with -zell or -walch (Bayerisch Zell, Amtzell, Traunwalchen, Walchensee) Show us that People at these places were speaking a romanic language still after the end of the Roman empire, it is also known that at about the year 800 there were People in Ratisbonne still speaking some popular-latin also in Iuvavum and surroundings so These People still existed. Looking at my own results I often get 50 % Norwegian + 50 % North-Italian in 2 populations mode, Norwegian could stand for germanic, North-Italian is a mix of celtic and mediterranean, so this would be consistent, the germanic influence in South-Germany seems over-estimated while other influences seem under-estimated. Slavic influences should be minor especially in Baden-Wuerttemberg but in Bavaria, too, just in the most North-eastern regions of what is today Bavaria (Upper-Franconia) slavic influence could be a bit more important. We Need not to talk about recent Population movements, 30 % of the inhabitants of Munich have a migratory Background. This thread is about indigenous Population, otherwise there would be no sense!

[Stormer99]

Mixture with Romans. They sometimes get part Tuscan on their oracles for a reason.

[Styrian Mujo]

First of all Celts and Germanic have common origins and both were pred. Nordoid furthermore the population of southern Germany was already inhabited by a population wich was a mix of CM and Mediterranid and Romans probably brought some near eastern slaves with lastly there were probably some minor migrations of peoples across that region.

[Styrian Mujo]

Did the Romans really settle there? I think the Roman influence was rather weak. To me South-Germany seems mostly Germanic with Celtic and some Slavic influences in the East.
But for example Bavaria is even more mixed today, as about 1/4 to 1/3 of the population come from expelled people from the Sudetenland and the Eastern German territories.
But these migrants are German right?

[Not a Cop]

It's kinda funny that Western Ukrainians cluster almost at the same place as Swedes, since swartiness of WU is kinda anecdotal in Russia.

[Ultra]

It's kinda funny that Western Ukrainians cluster almost at the same place as Swedes, since swartiness of WU is kinda anecdotal in Russia.
Wow, Swedes are really that much Turanid?

[Argang]

It's kinda funny that Western Ukrainians cluster almost at the same place as Swedes, since swartiness of WU is kinda anecdotal in Russia.

It happens in global PCA's or those that contain MENA's and West Asians in addition to Europeans, because external influences push Europeans tighter together along the two main dimensions.

In admixture runs that separate West and East European, or in PCA's that only include Europeans (like below), they are in different places with West Ukrainians firmly in the balto-slavic cluster.

http://i.imgur.com/xRHyroS.jpg

[Ouistreham]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44778&d=1393026430
The same nonsense, over and over again.
The Serbians plot between Germans and French, the Swedes between Czechs and Slovaks...
No valid conclusion can be drawn from such mappings.

[Jackson]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44778&d=1393026430
The same nonsense, over and over again.
The Serbians plot between Germans and French, the Swedes between Czechs and Slovaks...
No valid conclusion can be drawn from such mappings.

That's why i prefer the admixture runs with numbers, they just make a lot more sense.

[Argang]

That's why i prefer the admixture runs with numbers, they just make a lot more sense.

PCA from a genome is an approximation. Admixture run percentages from a genome are also an approximation, but a PCA out of admixture run percentages is an approximation of approximation. You can guess what that does to accuracy.

[Shuffle]

But these migrants are German right?

Yes, they were, german refugees after WW II coming from the eastern-european states (ČSR, Poland, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Romania, etc.) and the former eastern Parts of Germany which became polish and soviet (Silesia, Pomerania, Dantzig, East Prussia).

[Anglojew]

South Germans are Paleo-influenced, often called "Celts," similar to the west of the British Isles.