Ukraine Crisis: Russia Ready to go to War over Crimea

[Aunt Hilda]

A Russian government official has revealed that Russia would be willing to fight a war over the Crimea region of Ukraine and protect the large Russian population and its military assets there.

"If Ukraine breaks apart, it will trigger a war," the unnamed official told the Financial Times.



http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1364506/russia-ukraine-war-sevastopol-crimea-georgia.jpg?w=660&h=428&l=50&t=40
Russian servicemen, dressed in historical uniform, take part in a military parade rehearsal in Red Square


http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-russia-ready-go-war-over-crimea-1437398

[Beit El]

Haha, it's like the storyline of ArmA II.

[Jackson]

Let's hope Ukraine stays together then.

[glass]

russian Crimea was in ukrainian hands far too long, it is time to get it back

[glass]

this looks like solution for Ukraine
green to Russia
blue to Hungaria or Slovakia
red form new independent butthurt state
yellow remain Ukraine allied with mother Russia
http://s21.postimg.org/ln2ell52v/1390519604_6c055b2f2a9eeb310f092758e9cab018.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/k80twv3zn/full/)

[Yaroslav]

Let's hope Ukraine stays together then.

Ukraine cannot stay together. Either it must split in two or Russia must take it all, anything else isn't realistic. I am Galician myself, by the way.

[Yaroslav]

this looks like solution for Ukraine
green to Russia
blue to Hungaria or Slovakia
red form new independent butthurt state
yellow remain Ukraine allied with mother Russia
http://s21.postimg.org/ln2ell52v/1390519604_6c055b2f2a9eeb310f092758e9cab018.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/k80twv3zn/full/)

Why should yellow be independent? That's absurd. Maybe autonomous, but not independent. Also the red part is not totally accurate, needs some modifications.

[portusaus]

this looks like solution for Ukraine
green to Russia
blue to Hungaria or Slovakia
red form new independent butthurt state
yellow remain Ukraine allied with mother Russia

Why not just partition at the Dnieper River? West remains independent Ukraine and East+Crimea becomes part of Russia; Ukraine gets the major cities built on the river.

[Yaroslav]

this looks like solution for Ukraine
green to Russia
blue to Hungaria or Slovakia
red form new independent butthurt state
yellow remain Ukraine allied with mother Russia
http://s21.postimg.org/ln2ell52v/1390519604_6c055b2f2a9eeb310f092758e9cab018.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/k80twv3zn/full/)

http://i61.tinypic.com/2a76agn.jpg

[glass]

Why should yellow be independent? That's absurd. Maybe autonomous, but not independent. Also the red part is not totally accurate, needs some modifications.
i am agaisnt absorbing such large territory


Why not just partition at the Dnieper River?
because it is not accurate


http://i61.tinypic.com/2a76agn.jpg
IF look at protest's map you would see Uzhgorod does not support maidan rebels, so we should not leave them with ukrainian nationalists

[Zmey Gorynych]

this looks like solution for Ukraine
green to Russia
blue to Hungaria or Slovakia
red form new independent butthurt state
yellow remain Ukraine allied with mother Russia
http://s21.postimg.org/ln2ell52v/1390519604_6c055b2f2a9eeb310f092758e9cab018.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/k80twv3zn/full/)
Since you're giving away land might as well give Chernovtsy and Budjak to Moldova (there's enough pie for everyone) :) I'm surprised you only want Krym ... no Harkov or Donetsk !?

Ukraine will most likely stay as it is ... I think.


IF look at protest's map you would see Uzhgorod does not support maidan rebels, so we should not leave them with ukrainian nationalists
If western ukrainians break away and form their own state minorities are f#cked.

[Yaroslav]

IF look at protest's map you would see Uzhgorod does not support maidan rebels, so we should not leave them with ukrainian nationalists

I highly doubt the Rusyns would prefer Slovak or Magyar rule over Ukrainian. But if they do want independence from the Oranges, Russia should support their brethren like they support Ossetians.

[glass]

Since you're giving away land might as well give Chernovtsy and Budjak to Moldova (there's enough pie for everyone) :) I'm surprised you only want Krym ... no Harkov or Donetsk !?

i am not giving lands away, Crimea is mostly russian so it is better to join Russia, yellow regions is ukrainian, they speak russian or surgik but they are still ukrainian so they should remain in their national state. Red is ukrainian too but they have little common with 'yellow' ukrainians so let them live apart. Difference between red and yellow is much bigger than difference between Czechia and Slovakia for example. It would be better for all if western and eastern ukrainians have their own states

[Pure ja]

russian Crimea was in ukrainian hands far too long, it is time to get it back

Only the descendants of pre-1914 Crimea citizens should have a say in that. Not Kremlin. Nor recent immigrants.

[Graham]

What part is Chernobyl under? Just wandering.

[ALSh]

So..why would russia interveny right now that the civil war was stopped? Just wondering.

[Aunt Hilda]

What part is Chernobyl under? Just wandering.
I think it's in the northern part, right next to belarus.

[blogen]

Based on the last census, election and the present "protest results". The possible outline of Ukraines dissolution:

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/7455/v1nb.jpg

[Kiyant]

Only the descendants of pre-1914 Crimea citizens should have a say in that. Not Kremlin. Nor recent immigrants.

I think if you would ask the crimean Tatars they would want to be independant

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Russia is in no shape to go to war, don't delude yourselves believing otherwise.

[Yaroslav]

Only the descendants of pre-1914 Crimea citizens should have a say in that. Not Kremlin. Nor recent immigrants.

You mean Tatars? It was never Ukrainian, idiot. In fact, there was no such thing as Ukraine until 1917. Cossacks called themselves Russians.

[Yaroslav]

So..why would russia interveny right now that the civil war was stopped? Just wondering.

It wasn't stopped. You will see a Syria like war soon. Al-Qaeda (Right Sector, Svoboda), FSA (Tymoshenko), and Assad (Russians.)

[Sarmatian]

Only the descendants of pre-1914 Crimea citizens should have a say in that. Not Kremlin. Nor recent immigrants.

So Ukrainians should have no say on Crimea? Only Tatars and Russians? Because only Ukrainians are recent immigrants to Crimea, Tatars live there since the time of Golden horde and Russians since 16th century.

[Sarmatian]

I highly doubt the Rusyns would prefer Slovak or Magyar rule over Ukrainian. But if they do want independence from the Oranges, Russia should support their brethren like they support Ossetians.

Transcarpatia had asked for independence in 1991 when USSR split but it was denied. It used to belong to Slovakia when it was part of Austro-Hungarian empire.

[Acquisitor]

russian Crimea was in ukrainian hands far too long, it is time to get it back

would you volunteer for the front to take it back ?

[glass]

would you volunteer for the front to take it back ?
i am not soldier, Russia has an army

[Not a Cop]

A Russian government official has revealed that Russia would be willing to fight a war over the Crimea region of Ukraine and protect the large Russian population and its military assets there.

"If Ukraine breaks apart, it will trigger a war," the unnamed official told the Financial Times.


http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1364506/russia-ukraine-war-sevastopol-crimea-georgia.jpg?w=660&h=428&l=50&t=40
Russian servicemen, dressed in historical uniform, take part in a military parade rehearsal in Red Square


http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukraine-crisis-russia-ready-go-war-over-crimea-1437398





The unnamed brith monarch told me that he\she is going to restore empiere and establish absolute monarchy.

[Acquisitor]

i am not soldier, Russia has an army

imagine the fate of Crimea would depend on your participation. Would you have volunteered and risked your life to take it ?

[glass]

imagine the fate of Crimea would depend on your participation. Would you have volunteered and risked your life to take it ?
dude, try harder:picard1:

[Acquisitor]

dude, try harder:picard1:

come on, you want it back and say you have the army to take it IF it became necessary, I was simply trying to find out how much you want it back and whether you would be ready to risk your precious life for it. A normal question.

[glass]

come on, you want it back and say you have the army to take it IF it became necessary, I was simply trying to find out how much you want it back and whether you would be ready to risk your precious life for it. A normal question.
yeah yeah, same pathetic argumentation
will you kill convict yourself if you are for death sentences
will you go fight in Iraq if you are for democracy
will you go fight in Crimea if you want take it back
will you eat shit if you want prove that it has bad taste
etc etc

try harder:picard1:

[Acquisitor]

yeah yeah, same pathetic argumentation
will you kill convict yourself if you are for death sentences
will you go fight in Iraq if you are for democracy
will you go fight in Crimea if you want take it back
will you eat shit if you want prove that it has bad taste


will you or not )))) ?

[glass]

over 20k citizens of Sevastopol 'elected' new mayor
here in russian (http://gazeta.sebastopol.ua/2014/02/23/v-sevastopole-miting-vybral-glavu-goroda/)
they are forming militia as well, if maidan thugs come to 'restore' order and citizens of Crimea resist, public opinion in Russia would demand help russian kin...
not sure if Russia needs another Abkhazia and hundreds km border with hostile ukrainian regime

[Pure ja]

So Ukrainians should have no say on Crimea? Only Tatars and Russians? Because only Ukrainians are recent immigrants to Crimea, Tatars live there since the time of Golden horde and Russians since 16th century.

To the extent that is so, yes.

[Crn Volk]

Russia is in no shape to go to war, don't delude yourselves believing otherwise.

sure, just ask the georgians or chechens for that matter

[wvwvw]

over 20k citizens of Sevastopol 'elected' new mayor
here in russian (http://gazeta.sebastopol.ua/2014/02/23/v-sevastopole-miting-vybral-glavu-goroda/)
they are forming militia as well, if maidan thugs come to 'restore' order and citizens of Crimea resist, public opinion in Russia would demand help russian kin...
not sure if Russia needs another Abkhazia and hundreds km border with hostile ukrainian regime

Speaking of Sevastopol

The name of Sevastopolis (Modern Greek: Σεβαστούπολη, Sevastoupoli, old-fashioned Σεβαστούπολις, Sevastoupolis), or currently Sevastopol, was originally chosen in the same etymological trend as other cities in the Crimean peninsula that was intended to reflect its ancient Greek origins.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Hersones_Crimea_Sevastopol.jpg
The ruins of an ancient Greek theatre. Chersonesos Taurica

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Chersonesos_columns.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0_1 935_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0_4.jpg
The 1935 basilica is often used as an image representing Chersonesos. Its picture appears on one Ukrainian banknote

[glass]

Raine, is it just info or territorial claim?

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

sure, just ask the georgians or chechens for that matter

So you're trying to tell me that Russia won some glorious victory in Chechnya & Georgia?

The fact is that these two conflicts revealed how weak the Russian army really is, and how heavily it relies on outdated equipment as well as WMDs.
Which is why Putin is actually trying to reform the Russian army & modernize it.

And I think the Chechens will beg to differ, at least for the time being: http://lenta.ru/news/2013/12/28/power/

[glass]

So you're trying to tell me that Russia won some glorious victory in Chechnya & Georgia?

Russian army proved capable to deal with third world armies and gourp of insurgents. That is only challenges russian army may face in nearest future. Russian army is improving every year, for those who are intended to start full scale war, Russia has top notch anti-air defense and aircraft
and this on top of all
http://s7.postimg.org/bwk0phkm3/bulava.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[Äijä]

Russian army proved capable to deal with third world armies and gourp of insurgents. That is only challenges russian army may face in nearest future. Russian army is improving every year, for those who are intended to start full scale war, Russia has top notch anti-air defense and aircraft
and this on top of all
http://s7.postimg.org/bwk0phkm3/bulava.jpg (http://postimage.org/)


Who would attack Russia?
The only possibility for war is Russia invading areas some loonie in the Kreml or Stavka comes up with.
Who are next in line behind Putin? The closest and most powerful? Would be nice to get some profiles about them.

[glass]

Who are next in line behind Putin? The closest and most powerful? Would be nice to get some profiles about them.
there are none, unfortunately

[Crn Volk]

So you're trying to tell me that Russia won some glorious victory in Chechnya & Georgia?

The fact is that these two conflicts revealed how weak the Russian army really is, and how heavily it relies on outdated equipment as well as WMDs.
Which is why Putin is actually trying to reform the Russian army & modernize it.

And I think the Chechens will beg to differ, at least for the time being: http://lenta.ru/news/2013/12/28/power/

Somalia, Afghanistan and to a lesser degree Iraq have done the same for the US

[Acquisitor]

Who are next in line behind Putin? The closest and most powerful? Would be nice to get some profiles about them.

thats imo the worst side of Putin, his choke of the opposition prevents democratic institutions from being developed in the country. If he as a 61yo man drops dead tomorrow, then thanks to his policy there will be absolutely nobody to replace him. The party will likely put Medvedev as his successor, but I see him as a weakling who will miss Putin behind him to show him direction and to tell him what to do.

btw if he died unexpectedly, I think the grief in Russia will be comparable to that after Stalin's death. Not comparing Putin to Stalin of course, but reaction of the nation could be similar.

[Windischer]

Transcarpatia had asked for independence in 1991 when USSR split but it was denied. It used to belong to Slovakia when it was part of Austro-Hungarian empire.

it asked for autonomy in 1991 (not independence). faction of father dmitro sidor demanded independence in 2008, but sidor is a polarizing weirdo and his faction is minor, and not even part of world congress of rusyns.
also, it never belonged to slovakia, but since 11th century to hungary, later contested between habsburgs and transylvanian dukes, and between 1919-39 part of czechoslovakia. at the dawn of ww2 a group of pro-ukrainian radicals declared independence ("carpathian ukraine") but the new state was attacked the next day by hungary, and reclaimed, then occupied by germany in 1944. after the ww2, greater part of the region was annexed by soviet union as a part of ukrainian soviet republic, as stalin wanted a clean way through carpathians to his new satellite (hungary) and a potential satellite (czechoslovakia became communist satellite after coup in 1948).
the heavily guarded border was sometimes set in the middle of villages and literally cut away and isolated half of my region for more than 40 years. rusyn identity has been suppressed and policy of ukrainization followed.
after 1991 it became part of independent ukraine and 78% voted "yes" in autonomy referendum, but the central government ignored it. rusyns are still not recognized at state level in ukraine and the ukrainization still continues.

[glass]

It seems Russia is taking control over whole Crimea right now...

[Aunt Hilda]

It seems Russia is taking control over whole Crimea right now...
either scenario seems like quite a disappointment right now.

[Acquisitor]

so how will Putin sell this to the nation if it happens ?

a) yeah! we returned whats rightfully ours!
b) we fell quite low by taking it back when Ukraine had a serious crisis
c) we came there to temporarily protect our people

likely answer is "C" ?

[Hercus Monte]

so how will Putin sell this to the nation if it happens ?

a) yeah! we returned whats rightfully ours!
b) we fell quite low by taking it back when Ukraine had a serious crisis
c) we came there to temporarily protect our people

likely answer is "C" ?
didn't they use that excuse not that long ago? They're starting to look like Nazi Germany and Austria.

[Pure ja]

so how will Putin sell this to the nation if it happens ?

a) yeah! we returned whats rightfully ours!
b) we fell quite low by taking it back when Ukraine had a serious crisis
c) we came there to temporarily protect our people

likely answer is "C" ?

There was one news that Russia is handing out RF passports to ex-Berkut members in guard at the isthmus.
The other news that 13 Russian airplanes have transported additional 2000 troops to Simferopol.

[Pure ja]

In light of recent developments it is not comforting to know that British troops are not allowed to outside duties at temps below -20C.

[Hercus Monte]

likely answer is "C" ?
depends on where the armoured russians stop their tanks. if they stop with crimea, the most likely answer is c. but otherwise...

[Hercus Monte]

and the UN just called a special meeting...

[Acquisitor]

and the UN just called a special meeting...

why isn't gold going up on the news ? it can only mean that this is a non event which will not bring instability and fear.

how can Russia be punished for it ? they cant refuse to buy russian oil/gas etc, it would increase the prices and damage the recovering world's economy.

[Hercus Monte]

(Feb 28. GMT+1 17:40):
Russian lawmakers introduced two bills Friday to simplify annexing new territories into the Russian Federation and simplify access to Russian citizenship for Ukrainians, the Russian state news agency Itar Tass said.
One of the bills also stipulates that accession of a part of a foreign state to Russia should be taken through a referendum, according to Russian state news agency RIA

[Acquisitor]

(Feb 28. GMT+1 17:40):
Russian lawmakers introduced two bills Friday to simplify annexing new territories into the Russian Federation and simplify access to Russian citizenship for Ukrainians, the Russian state news agency Itar Tass said.
One of the bills also stipulates that accession of a part of a foreign state to Russia should be taken through a referendum, according to Russian state news agency RIA

1) shower Crimea with money and buy everyone's loyalty
2) make them vote to join Russia, and most of them already want that

mission accomplished

[Hweinlant]

so how will Putin sell this to the nation if it happens ?

a) yeah! we returned whats rightfully ours!
b) we fell quite low by taking it back when Ukraine had a serious crisis
c) we came there to temporarily protect our people

likely answer is "C" ?

C is the likely answer. Russia actually has not invaded Crimea, yet. Russia has simply moved personnel and equipment to Crimea per agreement with former Ukrainian government. There is no attack or anything like that. Russia just have to make sure Crimea is secure, for their Black Sea Fleet.

Having said that, and being evil western neo-nazi/fascist and Finnish russophobe, I think that in long term it would be better if Crimea would be part of RF. Crimea really brings nothing to Ukraine, it's actually heavily subsided region. Region with mostly Russian/Soviet population. Having it as part of Ukraine would certainly hinder or stop Ukraine's integration to EU. Crimea offers nothing to EU what Odessa doesn't have.

Crimea as part of Russia would give Russia another unstable region, with significant muslim Tatar population, living close to unstable Caucasus region. This would also force Turkey to look at her relation with Russia through clearer prism, as Crimean Tatars are clearly ethnic Turkish group, unlike Chechen fex.

Basically, there is not much for Ukraine to loose if Crimea becomes part of Russia. In-fact Ukraine would be much more Ukrainian (coherent ethnic nation state) than it is with Crimea.

[Hercus Monte]

Basically, there is not much for Ukraine to loose if Crimea becomes part of Russia. In-fact Ukraine would be much more Ukrainian (coherent ethnic nation state) than it is with Crimea.
Crimea has natural resources.

[Hweinlant]

Crimea has natural resources.

Major shale gas fields are not at Crimea but at west and Dnieper-Donets basin. Ukraine can hook those straight into existing infra and make money, that's all negative income for Gazprom(=RF state budget).

[Pure ja]

Crimea has natural resources.

The most important being sunshine for solar energy.

[Pure ja]

C is the likely answer. Russia actually has not invaded Crimea, yet. Russia has simply moved personnel and equipment to Crimea per agreement with former Ukrainian government. There is no attack or anything like that. Russia just have to make sure Crimea is secure, for their Black Sea Fleet.


It depends on the contract. As far as I assume, according to the contract Russian forces should contain themselves within the designated base areas. "Securing" airports and road crossings and air space is not part of the contract.

[Acquisitor]

C is the likely answer. Russia actually has not invaded Crimea, yet. Russia has simply moved personnel and equipment to Crimea per agreement with former Ukrainian government. There is no attack or anything like that. Russia just have to make sure Crimea is secure, for their Black Sea Fleet.

I think more will happen


Having said that, and being evil western neo-nazi/fascist and Finnish russophobe, I think that in long term it would be better if Crimea would be part of RF. Crimea really brings nothing to Ukraine, it's actually heavily subsided region. Region with mostly Russian/Soviet population. Having it as part of Ukraine would certainly hinder or stop Ukraine's integration to EU. Crimea offers nothing to EU what Odessa doesn't have.

yeah that's exactly why you show interest in this ;) and have been showing interest in the russian politics for some time, you want to know the enemy, I get it. ;)




Crimea as part of Russia would give Russia another unstable region, with significant muslim Tatar population, living close to unstable Caucasus region. This would also force Turkey to look at her relation with Russia through clearer prism, as Crimean Tatars are clearly ethnic Turkish group, unlike Chechen.

Basically, there is not much for Ukraine to loose if Crimea becomes part of Russia. In-fact Ukraine would be much more Ukrainian (coherent ethnic nation state) than it is with Crimea.

I think Crimea might undergo the Chechen treatment: tens of billions will be pumped into it, possible a Kadyrov like figure will be put to watch over the area, the region will finally get a decent infrastructure for tourism. I visited Crimea many times as a child/teen, its an amazing place btw.

[Hweinlant]

It depends on the contract. As far as I assume, according to the contract Russian forces should contain themselves within the designated base areas. "Securing" airports and road crossings and air space is not part of the contract.

Most of those "armed non-marked militia-men" are locals, with quite obvious Russian guidance. That guidance is just far enough from RF to deny any knowledge. This is not something they invented, U.S has used all those Blackwater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi)and what have you companies for decades. It's just local Crimean Russian ex-KGB groups taking orders from modern FSB. Apparently Putin is really mad atm. Still having egg in his face. He will calm down and start to think. His worst possible option is west starting to send armament to Ukraine via Poland and Lithuania. That'll just lead death of RF and his powerbase.

Then again, borders of Kyivan Rus' would leave him out to cold ;)

http://tmora.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Kyivian-Rus-Map-small.jpg

[Hweinlant]

I think more will happen


Not very likely.



yeah that's exactly why you show interest in this ;) and have been showing interest in the russian politics for some time, you want to know the enemy, I get it. ;)


Oh, not me, how dare you zhid!? :rolleyes:



I think Crimea might undergo the Chechen treatment: tens of billions will be pumped into it, possible a Kadyrov like figure will be put to watch over the area, the region will finally get a decent infrastructure for tourism. I visited Crimea many times as a child/teen, its an amazing place btw.

Doesn't save them from Jihad .. religion vs. money.

[LightHouse89]

Haha, it's like the storyline of ArmA II.

let me guess a dayz fan :cool:

[Pontios]

All of Ukraine should be Russia. They are a fake country and a fake nation. There were never any Ukrainians nor Ukraine. It is a product of the USSR and it's fall.

[Hweinlant]

All of Ukraine should be Russia. They are a fake country and a fake nation. There were never any Ukrainians nor Ukraine. It is a product of the USSR and it's fall.

How come they are the original Russia then ?

http://tmora.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Kyivian-Rus-Map-small.jpg

[Pure ja]

Most of those "armed non-marked militia-men" are locals, with quite obvious Russian guidance. That guidance is just far enough from RF to deny any knowledge.


Militia men usually don't have a dozen military grade helicopters.




Apparently Putin is really mad atm. Still having egg in his face. He will calm down and start to think. His worst possible option is west starting to send armament to Ukraine via Poland and Lithuania. That'll just lead death of RF and his powerbase.


I wonder where are the limits that the Russian Army officers won't cross, similar to the August 1991 events.
Ukraine has to keep calm, Putja will dig himself into his own hole.

[Beit El]

let me guess a dayz fan :cool:

Nope, I was there when ArmA II was just released, years before DayZ. :P

[LightHouse89]

Nope, I was there when ArmA II was just released, years before DayZ. :P

your not into it? its actually pretty fun. I enjoy hunting noobs and other survivors. I sometimes lure my prey to my location then take them out when they don't expect it. They rage I laugh after words. I am a legit bandit :thumb001:

[Jackson]

What part is Chernobyl under? Just wandering.

I think it's a bit north of Kiev, near the Belarusian border.

[Beit El]

I think it's a bit north of Kiev, near the Belarusian border.

Yeah, Chernobyl is pretty far from the pro-Russian areas. It's about 10km from the Belarusian border.

[RussiaPrussia]

How come they are the original Russia then ?

http://tmora.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Kyivian-Rus-Map-small.jpg

yeah because you call your empire after a town instead after the people. I think the name kyvan rus is western propaganda. Obviously the people wouldnt call themselves kivans if they arent living in kiev but rus after their nordic ancestors

[RussiaPrussia]

its was called ruthenia
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Древнерусское_государство
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus'


Kievan Rus' (Old East Slavic Рѹ́сь, Рѹ́сьскаѧ землѧ,[citation needed] Greek Ῥωσία, Latin Rusya, Ruscia, Ruzia, Rut(h)enia,[1][2]

[Longbowman]

Except every part of Ukraine except Crimea has a Ukrainian majority, but I agree on partition in principle, if support for it can be found.

[Pontios]

Except every part of Ukraine except Crimea has a Ukrainian majority, but I agree on partition in principle, if support for it can be found.

Is that why half of Ukraine is raising Russian flags? :lol: The smart Ukrainians know they are just Russians. There is no nationality as Ukrainian, they are just Russians who speak a different Russian dialect.

[Longbowman]

Is that why half of Ukraine is raising Russian flags? :lol:

If it is indeed half, then half must go.

But it's probably considerably less than that.

[Pontios]

How come they are the original Russia then ?

Your point just shows that they are just Russians. :lol:

[Pontios]

If it is indeed half, then half must go.

But it's probably considerably less than that.

Yes, but the thing I'm trying to put here is that Ukraine is Russian land. There is no Ukrainian nationality and they should be part of Russia.

[Longbowman]

Yes, but the thing I'm trying to put here is that Ukraine is Russian land. There is no Ukrainian nationality and they should be part of Russia.

If the two were the same, surely Russia would be an extension of Ukraine? Ukraine came first. It's just smaller and doesn't have the name 'Rus.' If we're basing this on names, then maybe Macedonia is the home of Alexander and y'all should submit to the FYR.

I jest, of course. Of course there's a Ukrainian nationality you oddball.

[Not a Cop]

If the two were the same, surely Russia would be an extension of Ukraine? Ukraine came first.

What do you mean?

[Longbowman]

What do you mean?

The Kievan Rus' originated in Ukraine.

[Not a Cop]

The Kievan Rus' originated in Ukraine.

No, Kievian Rus' was founded by Rurik, here is the map of extintion of Kievian Rus'

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Expansion_of_Rus.png?uselang=ru

[Longbowman]

No, Kievian Rus' was founded by Rurik, here is the map of extintion of Kievian Rus'

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Expansion_of_Rus.png?uselang=ru

Who knew? Well, you, I guess :D

Anyhow, as I said, it's a stupid, childish argument to pretend Ukraine shouldn't be independent. Like absorbing 40 million angry Ukrainians would be a good idea.

[Not a Cop]

Who knew? Well, you, I guess :D

Anyhow, as I said, it's a stupid, childish argument to pretend Ukraine shouldn't be independent. Like absorbing 40 million angry Ukrainians would be a good idea.

Well i have to agree with you it's complicated, i do'nt think anybody know the best scenario.

[Hercus Monte]

No, Kievian Rus' was founded by Rurik, here is the map of extintion of Kievian Rus'

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Expansion_of_Rus.png?uselang=ru
the map is a little liberal with the borders.

[d3cimat3d]

Interestingly the capital of Kievan Rus was very briefly in Romania:



Pereyaslavets (Переяславец; East Slavic form) or Preslavets (Преславец; Bulgarian form) was a trade city located at the mouth of the Danube.

Sviatoslav to the chagrin of his mother and relatives, transferred the capital from Kiev to Pereyaslavets. According to the Primary Chronicle (its record for year 969), Svyatoslav explained to his courtiers that it was to Pereyaslavets, the centre of his lands, that "all the riches would flow: gold, silks, wine, and various fruits from Greece, silver and horses from Hungary and Bohemia, and from Rus' furs, wax, honey, and slaves". Two years later, the town fell to the Byzantines, who had launched their own invasion of Bulgaria, and became the seat of a Byzantine strategos.

Excavations have identified Pereyaslavets with the village of Nufăru, Romania (known as Prislav until 1968), on the Sfântu Gheorghe branch of the Danube, just 11 km east of Tulcea


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pereyaslavets

//OT

[Hercus Monte]

Is that why half of Ukraine is raising Russian flags? :lol: The smart Ukrainians know they are just Russians. There is no nationality as Ukrainian, they are just Russians who speak a different Russian dialect.
educate yourself
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Slavs#Post-Kievan_period

[glass]

As many of you can see things in Kiev a few days early. Armed thugs seize Parlaiament, then Parliament vote some laws.
Russia does not want same scenario in Crimea i think. So thugs wont have a chance to let crimean parliament vote "Crimea is no longer autonomy", "Russian naval base has to be removed" etc :cool:
Once things set right, Russia leaves

[Pure ja]

What do you mean?

The old settlement at Lake Ilmen before Novgorod and Staraja Russa was finnic.

[Pure ja]

No, Kievian Rus' was founded by Rurik, here is the map of extintion of Kievian Rus'

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3c/Expansion_of_Rus.png?uselang=ru

No. At least three of the original pjatnitsas of Novgorod federation were predominantly finnic. The germanic vikings and slavic and finnic noblemen usurped power from the locals.

Also, the designated area describes toll area. That toll was intended for maintaining and securing waterways and river crossings for trade. The toll was a price for a service. Rus were invited in to provide a service. Servicemen were invited to serve locals, but they usurped power instead and later on started to reinterpret the waterways toll as a tax and as a tag for submission. The morale of the story is that one should not treat one's customers as one's slaves.

[Hercus Monte]

it's official, Sergei Aksonov just announced that it's Russian militia ''protecting'' objects of importance.

This is not going to end well, is it?

edit.-----------

and now they're attacking ukranian border posts... nope, this is definitely not going to end well.

[Acquisitor]

http://lenta.ru/news/2014/03/01/senat/

the Russian parliament has approved presence of a "limited force" in Crimea to protect the russian population and the russian navy

[Hercus Monte]

http://lenta.ru/news/2014/03/01/senat/

the Russian parliament has approved presence of a "limited force" in Crimea to protect the russian population and the russian navy
and now it's official, this is war.

[Acquisitor]

the words "ограниченный контингент" sound painful

[Matt5898]

http://lenta.ru/news/2014/03/01/senat/

the Russian parliament has approved presence of a "limited force" in Crimea to protect the russian population and the russian navy


What an irony, Russian Ukrainian Matvienko talks about protection of Ukrainian Russians :rolleyes:

[Äijä]

In light of recent developments it is not comforting to know that British troops are not allowed to outside duties at temps below -20C.

Lol, but I bet the Royal Marines are stll allowed and they are the ones that would operate in Fennoscandia and Baltics.

[Matt5898]

There are some big protests in Kharkov and Donetsk also right now. That's 2nd and 3rd Ukraine's biggest cities. The same scenario - senates are captured and Russian flags instead Ukrainian

http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3313399-donetsk-y-kharkov-mytynhuuit-za-rossyui-vydeo-protestov
http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3313366-v-donetske-shturmuuit-oblastnuui-admynystratsyui
(Ukrainian news portal)

[Äijä]

There are some big protests in Kharkov and Donetsk also right now. That's 2nd and 3rd Ukraine's biggest cities. The same scenario - senates are captured and Russian flags instead Ukrainian

http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3313399-donetsk-y-kharkov-mytynhuuit-za-rossyui-vydeo-protestov
http://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3313366-v-donetske-shturmuuit-oblastnuui-admynystratsyui
(Ukrainian news portal)

Yes, to be expected. This is just not good as it sets a precedent that will result in a long term tension in Europe.
If trough UN, mediators and voting these areas would have joined Russia it would be much better, but that would set a precedent maybe even worse for Russia.
Putin came to the Rubicon and made his decision.

[Äijä]

Double.

[RussiaPrussia]

The Kievan Rus' originated in Ukraine.

it originated from sweden coming to russians territory first and it was called ruthenia

[glass]

time of orchestrated revolutions and coups near russian borders is over

[RussiaPrussia]

The old settlement at Lake Ilmen before Novgorod and Staraja Russa was finnic.

finnland was russian back then you dumbass, how about we talk about that?

http://www.esacademic.com/pictures/eswiki/82/Rus_de_Kiev-1237.png

[Hercus Monte]

@russiaprussia


http://vocaroo.com/i/s13QUlHrQL1F

[Matt5898]

Yes, to be expected. This is just not good as it sets a precedent that will result in a long term tension in Europe.
If trough UN, mediators and voting these areas would have joined Russia it would be much better, but that would set a precedent maybe even worse for Russia.
Putin came to the Rubicon and made his decision.

That's really bad, I also don't support it.
That;s not only Putin's fail. These nationalistic idiots should have thought twice before cancelling Law about regional languages.

[Acquisitor]

That's really bad, I also don't support it.
That;s not only Putin's fail. These nationalistic idiots should have thought twice before cancelling Law about regional languages.

Why is it Putin's fail ? what does he have to lose ? It could be that he is quite excited about the possibility of annexing new territories and views this revolution as a positive development.

Putin is not a man who usually fails, in fact he is someone who usually gets what he wants.

[Äijä]

the words "ограниченный контингент" sound painful

Please translate and the deeper meanings also.

[Virtuous]

time of orchestrated revolutions and coups near russian borders is over

Yeah, U.S. could think they could meddle with Russia's closest neighbour. If Russia didn't react it would mean it loses more of it's Sovereignty and relevance, now the Russian bear is awake. Honestly though, all I want is not this Imperialistic scenario, I want a unified Europe without Liberalism, Israel and U.S., but in this case Russia is defo my fav.

[Acquisitor]

Please translate and the deeper meanings also.

ограниченный контингент = limited force. The deeper meaning is the Afghanistan invasion of 1980 (or was it 79?). The words ограниченный контингент were used to explain the invasion, for nearly a decade. And we all know how it turned out out to be.

[Matt5898]

Why is it Putin's fail ? what does he have to lose ? It could be that he is quite excited about the possibility of annexing new territories and views this revolution as a positive development.

Putin is not a man who usually fails, in fact he is someone who usually gets what he wants.

IMHO, he goes too far in Crimea. He should act more accurately or we will got Russian-Ukrainian hate soon, like Serbian-Croatian or West Ukrainian-Russian. I don't want this.

[Äijä]

finnland was russian back then you dumbass, how about we talk about that?

http://www.esacademic.com/pictures/eswiki/82/Rus_de_Kiev-1237.png

Hope this comes up more often, let the arms shipments begin to the facist camps in Finland and Baltic.

[Acquisitor]

IMHO, he goes too far in Crimea. He should act more accurately or we will got Russian-Ukrainian hating soon, like Serbian-Croatian or West Ukrainian Russian. I don't want this.

I see him as a cold very rational person who has calculated all possible pro's and contra's. I think he knows what he is doing and is aware of all possible consequences.

[Matt5898]

I see him as a cold very rational person who has calculated all possible pro's and contra's. I think he knows what he is doing and is aware of all possible consequences.

I hope so too.

[Äijä]

IMHO, he goes too far in Crimea. He should act more accurately or we will got Russian-Ukrainian hating soon, like Serbian-Croatian or West Ukrainian-Russian. I don't want this.

I dont think he cares West of Dniepr, the East will get free money thrown in like they did in Chechnya.

[Hercus Monte]

I see him as a cold very rational person who has calculated all possible pro's and contra's. I think he knows what he is doing and is aware of all possible consequences.
I still fail to see how loosing a power-base in ukraine is good for him.

[Acquisitor]

I still fail to see how loosing a power-base in ukraine is good for him.

explain.

[Matt5898]

I dont think he cares West of Dniepr, the East will get free money thrown in like they did in Chechnya.

West of Dnepr is Eastern Ukraine btw :D that's strange but it is.
Eastern Ukraine contains 80% of Ukrainian indusrty I guess, that's not the same with Chechnya

[Hercus Monte]

explain.if Ukraine loses Crimea, putin would lose political leverage on Ukraine.

[Äijä]

West of Dnepr is Eastern Ukraine btw :D that's strange but it is.
Eastern Ukraine contains 80% of Ukrainian indusrty I guess, that's not the same with Chechnya

It not the same but still the promise to invest a shit load of money to that industry will be a priority and will win hearts and minds.

[Hercus Monte]

Putin just requested RF council to send militia troops to crimea in order to ''stabilise'' the political situation.

[Acquisitor]

if Ukraine loses Crimea, putin would lose political leverage on Ukraine.

is that a fact ? I just called my grandmother living in Dnepropetrovsk area, she is old but very active and her general feeling is that the entire region wants to join Russia as soon as possible. What if the Crimea example inspires others ? what if Vladimir ends up with the entire Eastern Ukraine under his control ?

[Hercus Monte]

is that a fact ? I just called my grandmother living in Dnepropetrovsk area, she is old but very active and her general feeling is that the entire region wants to join Russia as soon as possible. What if the Crimea example inspires others ? what if Vladimir ends up with the entire Eastern Ukraine under his control ?
I fail to see how that's good for Putin. he can use the Russian minority in the east to destabilise the country and easily influence it. At least that's how I rationalise it. maybe I'm wrong.

[glass]

btw Putin had phone conversation with Obama of over hour length, when Yanukovich was deposed. Since then Putin talked more than one time with Merkel, Cameron and even Rompuy (lol?), but not with Obama. Does it mean Obama failed to honor their agreements and cheated Putin? Or may be everything according to thier secret agreement?

Overall US reaction is very wierd, i did expect much louder bitching, but they just ask to respect ukrainian borders...

[archangel]

Crimea belong Tatar Türks actually

[Acquisitor]

I fail to see how that's good for Putin. he can use the Russian minority in the east to destabilise the country and easily influence it. At least that's how I rationalise it. maybe I'm wrong.

interesting times are ahead, thats for sure :)

[Casandrinos]

Crimea belong Tatar Türks actually


Get off the Steppes and liberate them.:lol:

[Äijä]

Crimea belong Tatar Türks actually

What is the Turkish media reporting?

[Äijä]

btw Putin had phone conversation with Obama of over hour length, when Yanukovich was deposed. Since then Putin talked more than one time with Merkel, Cameron and even Rompuy (lol?), but not with Obama. Does it mean Obama failed to honor their agreements and cheated Putin? Or may be everything according to thier secret agreement?

Overall US reaction is very wierd, i did expect much louder bitching, but they just ask to respect ukrainian borders...

Everyone on that list are political midgets and going out of office, Putin does not care.

[Zmey Gorynych]

So after Crimea, Donetsk and Harkov want out, Dnipropetrovsk will probably follow their example. If Ukraine looses all these regions the country is economically fukced.

I have a feeling that when the russkies are finished in Ukraine, Moldova will be next.

[Acquisitor]

Everyone on that list are political midgets and going out of office, Putin does not care.

imagine that the "international community" decides to punish Russia. What could they hypothetically do ?

[glass]

imagine that the "international community" decides to punish Russia. What could they hypothetically do ?
americans were so eager to cut any attempts of rus-us economical cooperation,
now their potential sanctions are worthless. Though they can ask european partners for sanctions ofc ;) It might be best time right now since this winter is almost over, but next one is to come anyway:rolleyes:

[Acquisitor]

americans were so eager to cut any attempts of rus-us economical cooperation,
now their potential sanctions are worthless. Though they can ask european partners for sanctions ofc ;) It might be best time right now since this winter is almost over, but next one is to come anyway:rolleyes:

Russia is a big importer of all kind of European products, there is noway to sanction it without feeling extreme pain. Same applies for the US in a way. I'm too lazy to google for the numbers but something tells me that Russia is employing millions of Europeans and creates lots of profit over here. I don't see how any European politicians could sell serious sanctions to the companies. Mission impossible. Maybe some lame pathetic things like "the visa free regime with Russia is now out of question" or some other irrelevant thing.

Putin has created a very comfortable position of force. The world can't say no to Russian commodities, he himself is guaranteed to keep his seat through 2024, he has a shitload of money. That's not bad at all.

[Äijä]

imagine that the "international community" decides to punish Russia. What could they hypothetically do ?

Nothing, they will revert to the cold war battle of ideologies type of conflict and arming Russias neighbours to contain it.
This will take some time as new people are elected to office but that is where we are going, Putin has a timetable so now he has to work fast as it will stop when that happens.

[Aunt Hilda]

Heil Putler

[glass]

Heil Putler
Migla is most adorable member on this board, i fail to write anything bad to her

[Äijä]

NATO will very soon have drills from Norway to Turkey, it will be a show of force type of thing.
After that arms deals will start, giant garage sale around the massive USA stockpile of weapons they where going to retire, hope we get some goodies.

[Acquisitor]

NATO will very soon have drills from Norway to Turkey, it will be a show of force type of thing.
After that arms deals will start, giant garage sale around the massive USA stockpile of weapons they where going to retire, hope we get some goodies.

you mean the US will be able to get money for some of the weapons which would otherwise have to be recycled ? sounds like a good business plan :thumb001:

[Äijä]

you mean the US will be able to get money for some of the weapons which would otherwise have to be recycled ? sounds like a good business plan :thumb001:

Yep and good for us, it is not junk, US just blows away with its budget.
Like retiring A-10 strike plane, as they have so much precision weapons to replace it, for Finland it would be a potent weapon capable of landing in roads and fields and can be flown by an airline pilot that used to be in the air force.

[glass]

Yep and good for us, it is not junk, US just blows away with its budget.
Like retiring A-10 strike plane, as they have so much precision weapons to replace it, for Finland it would be a potent weapon capable of landing in roads and fields and can be flown by an airline pilot that used to be in the air force.
aircraft have upkeep cost you know? pilot training is expensive as well. Will your country pay for all of this?

[Äijä]

aircraft have upkeep cost you know? pilot training is expensive as well. Will your country pay for all of this?

They already have pilots for receiving more planes come conflict, this type of plane would work with low cost as most of them could be stored during peace time.
We have kept a larger than needed training aircraft fleet all the time with secondary war time role in mind, this would be around the same cost.
I can predict we have seen the bottom in military budgets in Europe for some time.

[Pontios]

If the two were the same, surely Russia would be an extension of Ukraine? Ukraine came first. It's just smaller and doesn't have the name 'Rus.' If we're basing this on names, then maybe Macedonia is the home of Alexander and y'all should submit to the FYR.

I jest, of course. Of course there's a Ukrainian nationality you oddball.

Ukraine did not come first. Till the USSR there were never any Ukrainians, they were just invented after the fall of USSR.

[Hercus Monte]

Ukraine did not come first. Till the USSR there were never any Ukrainians, they were just invented after the fall of USSR.
nonsense. crack up a history book.

[Äijä]

Nice that those BTR:s have snorkels, not planning to cross over to somewhere. :rolleyes:

My prediction, one army will attack south through Kharkov, one west through Donetsk, one from Rostov towards Crimea, the Dniepr is the new border drawn in Moscow.

[Hercus Monte]

John Kerry just announced that the USA will fight for Ukraine.

[RussiaPrussia]

John Kerry just announced that the USA will fight for Ukraine.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?117053-Obama-and-American-Politicians-get-a-chuckle-about-Crimean-Conflict

they really look willing

[Hercus Monte]

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-explainer-budapest-memorandum/25280502.html

[RussiaPrussia]

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-explainer-budapest-memorandum/25280502.html

like nato not beyond east germany? you fucking hypocrites

[Äijä]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V68srzQs7PQ

[Äijä]

Finland will partly mobilize if there is war in Ukraine said the Chairman of the Defence Committee.

He did not have to wait for long.

Fighting in Simferopol seems to have started.

[Jackson]

Finland will partly mobilize if there is war in Ukraine said the Chairman of the Defence Committee.

He did not have to wait for long.

Fighting in Simferopol seems to have started.

Do you have news sources for fighting in simferopol? Can't find it yet.

[Äijä]

Do you have news sources for fighting in simferopol? Can't find it yet.

Tweets just came in, but most have been confirmed with delay today by reporters so I posted it also, I am not a reporter so can spread disinformation. :D
A column moved there not long ago so it could be someone taking pot shots or soldiers have found some vodka, looking for links about it.

[Acquisitor]

its funny how the market can predict events sometimes. Nobody could explain the slump of the ruble during January/February, and tomorrow could be an ugly day for the Russian currency. It's like the forces behind the recent fall could forecast these events. Ruble might fall hard tomorrow.

[Minesweeper]

Good. My sincere support for intervention against illegitimate dictatorship.

[Yaroslav]

Da zdrastvuyet Russkaya Imperiya!

[Pontios]

Da zdrastvuyet Russkaya Imperiya!

I wish the Russian Empire back. Russia needs a supreme ruler.

[Äijä]

Do you have news sources for fighting in simferopol? Can't find it yet.

This happened earlier.


A group of armed men attacked the parliament building in Simferopol. Russian soldiers who protect the site did not respond. The attackers withdrew in a bus a few minutes later.



http://www.bfmtv.com/video/bfmtv/international/crimee-hommes-armes-tirent-palais-gouvernement-soldats-russes-ne-bougent-pas-01-03-180828/

We have special forces presence, all smells like very well planned provocation.
It looks something done by the FSB. :rolleyes:

[RussiaPrussia]

its funny how the market can predict events sometimes. Nobody could explain the slump of the ruble during January/February, and tomorrow could be an ugly day for the Russian currency. It's like the forces behind the recent fall could forecast these events. Ruble might fall hard tomorrow.

it was because of anti russian propaganda from western media because of sochi. Well they got what they sorrow, there is nothing to lose anymore for russia, they can do what ever they want now.

Every one who will die in this war is thanks to the western media and their demonisation of putin and russia.

[Acquisitor]

it was because of anti russian propaganda from western media because of sochi. Well they got what they sorrow, there is nothing to lose anymore for russia, they can do what ever they want now.

Every one who will die in this war is thanks to the western media and their demonisation of putin and russia.

:picard2:

PR: I do agree that Crimea should belong to Russia, and a part of me does support the invasion, but still its a very low thing to do when Ukraine is having such a difficult period, and I'm sure the evil rotten west is to blame.

[RussiaPrussia]

:picard2:

PR: I do agree that Crimea should belong to Russia, and a part of me does support the invasion, but still its a very low thing to do when Ukraine is having such a difficult period, and I'm sure the evil rotten west is to blame.

not the west but their russophobic racist media

[Windischer]

Every one who will die in this war is thanks to the western media and their demonisation of putin and russia.
ppl die in war usually because someone kills them. not "because of (evilwestern) media".
but hey, am arguing with a microwave oven, am i not?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ0NkUIEnGryDd8fVALd_zS1lSPzCz6Z VjE8VibMO5ktt5SQoJd7w

[Acquisitor]

ppl die in war usually because someone kills them. not "because of (evilwestern) media".
but hey, am arguing with a microwave oven, am i not?

I love to place raw eggs in RP's microwave :D they always blow up in funny ways.

[RussiaPrussia]

ppl die in war usually because someone kills them. not "because of (evilwestern) media".
but hey, am arguing with a microwave oven, am i not?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ0NkUIEnGryDd8fVALd_zS1lSPzCz6Z VjE8VibMO5ktt5SQoJd7w

we life in a world dominated by american media you dumbass who also control the internet and can spy every citizen. Explain that to you is like explain it to wall.

You idiots understand that times have changed we life in the 21 century dominated by information which is worse than wars, how else you can explain how these ukrainians went nuts in kiew from no where?

in 2012 everything was fine ukraine hosted the european football cup, and look at them now.

[Hercus Monte]

uhh, NATO has spoken

http://lb.delfi.lt/attachment.php?eid=15081&id=15547&aid=15548&w=520

[Windischer]

information which is worse than wars
yes, once i saw information beating innocent people on street. damn information! ignorance is bliss, information kills!


in 2012 everything was fine ukraine hosted the european football cup, and look at them now.
nothing has been fine in ukraine. but as i say, ignorance is bliss! :D

[Äijä]

uhh, NATO has spoken

http://lb.delfi.lt/attachment.php?eid=15081&id=15547&aid=15548&w=520

Time for you Lithunanians get back to conscription, we can come and train you in the facist camps.

[Hercus Monte]

we can come and train you in the facist camps.
fascist camps? :D
we already have fascist camps. I'm sure RT will do a report on them tomorrow.

talking of fascists, the Russians have been very active in kaliningrad the last couple of days.

[Minesweeper]

uhh, NATO has spoken

http://lb.delfi.lt/attachment.php?eid=15081&id=15547&aid=15548&w=520

''Russia must''

Who do they think they are, this is not 1991.

[Hercus Monte]

''Russia must''

Who do they think they are, this is not 1991.well, yeah. they signed agreements in 1994 where they obligate themselves to do so.

[RussiaPrussia]

well, yeah. they signed agreements in 1994 where they obligate themselves to do so.

nato signed agreement not to expand to poland and central europe

[Äijä]

fascist camps? :D
we already have fascist camps. I'm sure RT will do a report on them tomorrow.

talking of fascists, the Russians have been very active in kaliningrad the last couple of days.

To be expected, they have to prepare defending it just in case. They dont have enough to move anywhere, they are a holding force. Is the fleet moving?

[Hercus Monte]

To be expected, they have to prepare defending it just in case. They dont have enough to move anywhere, they are a holding force. Is the fleet moving?
no, they are just 'exercising' in their bases.

[Windischer]

''Russia must''

Who do they think they are, this is not 1991.

pacta sunt servanda.
its not 1938-39 either.

[Hercus Monte]

nato signed agreement not to expand to poland and central europe
false equivalent.

[Windischer]

nato signed agreement not to expand to poland and central europe

link the agreement.

[Acquisitor]

Just in: Ukrainian army has been put on high alert. I hope nothing happens.. this sickens me even to think about the possibilities of a real conflict.

PS. she suddenly looks much better compared to last week

http://icdn.lenta.ru/images/2014/03/01/23/20140301232152170/pic_fbc17848d1a37a01466010c34f170b4c.jpg

[Graham]

Who's running the Ukraine army right now?

[Äijä]

Ukrainian ambassador to UN just said Russians need a physciatrist as they are talking crazy. They consider they have been attacked.

[Äijä]

Who's running the Ukraine army right now?

Good question.

[Hercus Monte]

Who's running the Ukraine army right now?
the acting president, Oleksandr Turchynov.

[Äijä]

no, they are just 'exercising' in their bases.

Hope you now agree every man should be armed? :D

[Windischer]

Who's running the Ukraine army right now?

some thieves, most probably ;)

[Hercus Monte]

Hope you now agree every man should be armed? :D
we already are armed, I have two guns, my brother-in-law has an ak-47.(surprisingly light i must say)

[Graham]

the acting president, Oleksandr Turchynov.


But seriously, no unity or single direction, unprepared & they'll not do well.

[Hercus Monte]

But seriously, no unity or single direction, unprepared & they'll not do well.
they more or less have western Ukraine in check. the rest of the country is a giant mess.

[Äijä]

we already are armed, I have two guns, my brother-in-law has an ak-47.(surprisingly light i must say)

Yes but training and a war time role ready for fast mobilisation, it raises the bar for the opponent to threaten or invade.

[Windischer]

i have an airgun
dont move or i shoot!

[Hercus Monte]

Yes but training and a war time role ready for fast mobilisation, it raises the bar for the opponent to threaten or invade.
I'm not qualified enough to have this discussion.
I only know two people who study in the army academy and in the discussions we had about this in the past I was mirroring their views.

[Windischer]

make peace, not war, ppl.
sing kumbaya or i use my airgun!

[Äijä]

I'm not qualified enough to have this discussion.

Just vote for the party that has that agenda, it is good for our areas security. ;)

[Graham]

Yes but training and a war time role ready for fast mobilisation, it raises the bar for the opponent to threaten or invade.

They need to get some Finnish working class men of WWII spirit, to help. :P

[Hercus Monte]

Just vote for the party that has that agenda, it is good for our areas security. ;)
there is no party that has discussed this, as far as I'm aware of.
the only public figure to talk about this is a Swedish immigrant ;)

They need to get some Finnish working class men of WWII spirit, to help. :P
good point.
finns, take our women.
gay finns, take our men.

[Minesweeper]

well, yeah. they signed agreements in 1994 where they obligate themselves to do so.

20 years later we have a different situation and Russia can't be manipulated and forced to make steps against its national interests. Intervention is reasonable, only question is how to pull it off and how wide it will be in terms of engaged troops and affected territory. Obama won't do much, he's a weak character with cool voice.

[Pure ja]

time of orchestrated revolutions and coups near russian borders is over

You mean Kremlin will stop meddling into the internal affairs of its neighbours?
So far there are no indications whatsoever to believe in that.

[Hercus Monte]

20 years later we have a different situation and Russia can't be manipulated and forced to make steps against its national interests. Intervention is reasonable, only question is how to pull it off and how wide it will be in terms of engaged troops and affected territory. Obama won't do much, he's a weak character with cool voice.
agreeing on the borders was in the Russian interest back than :rolleyes:
(why am I not surprised you're a serb?)

[Pure ja]

ограниченный контингент = limited force. The deeper meaning is the Afghanistan invasion of 1980 (or was it 79?). The words ограниченный контингент were used to explain the invasion, for nearly a decade. And we all know how it turned out out to be.

Well, after all the soviet force and resources WERE limited. They were not unlimited and those reserves (including psychological motivation) were drained.

[glass]

http://batkivshchyna.com.ua/news/open/977
this so called acting president was told "Russia would use army if civilians in eastern
Ukraine and Crimea will be in danger". Like i said early this mornig, Russia is just going to protect civilians and let them freely participate president elections:)

[RussiaPrussia]

IMHO, he goes too far in Crimea. He should act more accurately or we will got Russian-Ukrainian hate soon, like Serbian-Croatian or West Ukrainian-Russian. I don't want this.

who cares, let ukrainians vote their slovoboda then they can say bye bye EU.

[Pure ja]

IMHO, he goes too far in Crimea. He should act more accurately or we will got Russian-Ukrainian hate soon, like Serbian-Croatian or West Ukrainian-Russian. I don't want this.

I sincerely hope that from now on ukrainians will start to hate Putin and Kremlin more than they used to. Hating Putin and Kremlin does not necessarily mean hating russians, only those russians who side with Putin and Kremlin.

[Pure ja]

I see him as a cold very rational person who has calculated all possible pro's and contra's. I think he knows what he is doing and is aware of all possible consequences.

Putin is not God, he is just a dictator - and not a mild one any more, he just got a raise.

[Longbowman]

Ukraine did not come first. Till the USSR there were never any Ukrainians, they were just invented after the fall of USSR.

Ridiculous and inaccurate, even for you.

[blogen]

The Ukrainian fleet rebelled today! The flagship (Hetman Sahaydachniy frigate) sails home from the Gulf of Aden under a Russian naval jack! :D

[Longbowman]

like nato not beyond east germany? you fucking hypocrites

Times change. People want to join NATO. We're cool.

[Minesweeper]

agreeing on the borders was in the Russian interest back than :rolleyes:
(why am I not surprised you're a serb?)

[FONT=Century Gothic]Depends on the context. You should explain it.[/QUOTE]

[Äijä]

The Ukrainian fleet rebelled today! The flagship (Hetman Sahaydachniy frigate) sails home from the Gulf of Aden under a Russian naval jack! :D

Link?

[Longbowman]

''Russia must''

Who do they think they are, this is not 1991.

'Russia, you must not invade another country, it hasn't attacked you.'

'How DARE you? We'll invade who we want. This isn't 1991.'

[Pure ja]

They already have pilots for receiving more planes come conflict, this type of plane would work with low cost as most of them could be stored during peace time.
We have kept a larger than needed training aircraft fleet all the time with secondary war time role in mind, this would be around the same cost.
I can predict we have seen the bottom in military budgets in Europe for some time.

Lithuania and Latvia already asked for NATO article 4 - consultations - I guess their professional pocket-armies do not seem strong enough in the new situation.

[denz]

Putin behaves like crazy Stalin.

[Pure ja]

Ukraine did not come first. Till the USSR there were never any Ukrainians, they were just invented after the fall of USSR.

Does that mean that NATO member Greece (and Greek fascists) tends to lean to support Putin and Kremlin? Is there a will in Greece to participate in defending other NATO members? Or is it better to turn right to Turkey with this question?

[blogen]

Link?

http://vg-news.ru/news/20140354074.html
http://www.centrasia.ru/newsA.php?st=1393686420

[Pure ja]

like nato not beyond east germany? you fucking hypocrites

You don't have any official contract to support your claim.

[Hercus Monte]

'Russia, you must not invade another country, it hasn't attacked you.'

'How DARE you? We'll invade who we want. This isn't 1991.'
Ukrainains are hot blooded, the calm heads wont last long.
they'll give in to some kind of provocation sooner or later.

[Äijä]

Does that mean that NATO member Greece (and Greek fascists) tends to lean to support Putin and Kremlin? Is there a will in Greece to participate in defending other NATO members? Or is it better to turn right to Turkey with this question?

NATO is not to be trusted, USA and UK are the onlyone willing to defend Scandinavia and Baltic, we need a regional pact.

[denz]

Does that mean that NATO member Greece (and Greek fascists) tends to lean to support Putin and Kremlin? Is there a will in Greece to participate in defending other NATO members? Or is it better to turn right to Turkey with this question?

They are good at without fighting at war and enjoy the back-end benefits.

[RussiaPrussia]

Times change. People want to join NATO. We're cool.

times change we can take crimea. we are cool

[Pure ja]

I wish the Russian Empire back. Russia needs a supreme ruler.

I can see that RussiaPrussia supports your particular views.
Why am I not surprised?

[Longbowman]

times change we can take crimea. we are cool

Some countries want to be our friends, democratically =/= you invading someplace.

Crimea can JOIN you, but you cannot take it by force.

Also - and I can't stress this enough - you are German.

[Hercus Monte]

times change we can take crimea. we are cool
you're not russian thou, you're not taking anything. if anything you're loosing Crimea.

[Hercus Monte]

NATO is not to be trusted, USA and UK are the onlyone willing to defend Scandinavia and Baltic, we need a regional pact.
didn't we do that in 2013?

[RussiaPrussia]

Some countries want to be our friends, democratically =/= you invading someplace.

Crimea can JOIN you, but you cannot take it by force.

russians are the total majority in fact Crimea always wanted a referendum for secession which kiew always denied because they know how it would turn out

[Pure ja]

it was because of anti russian propaganda from western media because of sochi. Well they got what they sorrow, there is nothing to lose anymore for russia, they can do what ever they want now.

Every one who will die in this war is thanks to the western media and their demonisation of putin and russia.

Not at all.
But be noted that if NATO fails to defend even one NATO member from Russia, then NATO effectively becomes obsolete.
And in the next stage each and every neighbour of RF will get their own independent MAD capabilities, and not just nuclear. Let's see the outcome of that mexican standoff and who will be munching his tie and who not. It is a MAD world.

[RussiaPrussia]

you're not russian thou, you're not taking anything. if anything you're loosing Crimea.

youre right i am a neutral person in this conflict living in germany. And i say russia you have all my support against these fascist from brussels

[Hercus Monte]

russians are the total majority in fact Crimea always wanted a referendum for secession which kiew always denied because they know how it would turn out
so lets just kill them, excellent.

youre right i am a neutral person in this conflict living in germany. And i say russia you have all my support against these fascist from brussels
wolf crying wolf

Not at all.
But be noted that if NATO fails to defend even one NATO member from Russia, then NATO effectively becomes obsolete.
And in the next stage each and every neighbour of RF will get their own independent MAD capabilities, and not just nuclear. Let's see the outcome of that mexican standoff and who will be munching his tie and who not. It is a MAD world.right. without nato we would build nukes. there is no reason for us not to do so, if nato is obsolete. and we have the capacity to do so.

[RussiaPrussia]

Not at all.
But be noted that if NATO fails to defend even one NATO member from Russia, then NATO effectively becomes obsolete.
And in the next stage each and every neighbour of RF will get their own independent MAD capabilities, and not just nuclear. Let's see the outcome of that mexican standoff and who will be munching his tie and who not. It is a MAD world.

ukraine is a nato member?

[Äijä]

didn't we do that in 2013?

Finland and Sweden are not in NATO and will not join, we need to prepare everything the same way, conscription back is the first step. Estonian Army is basically the same as in Finland.

[Hercus Monte]

Finland and Sweden are not in NATO and will not join, we need to prepare everything the same way, conscription back is the first step. Estonian Army is basically the same as in Finland.
I meant this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Battle_Group
and didn't we sign a deal with the UK in the Northern European conference?

[Pure ja]

nato signed agreement not to expand to poland and central europe

NATO? Who? When? Where? And with whom?

[Äijä]

I meant this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Battle_Group
and didn't we sign a deal with the UK in the Northern European conference?

That is peanuts, we have to be able to mobilize 2-3 million men minimum combined, that is enough of a deterrent.

[Hercus Monte]

That is peanuts, we have to be able to mobilize 2-3 million men minimum combined, that is enough of a deterrent.
I realise that. but we did sign a deal with cameron, didn't we? I could swear the military was part of the deal.

[Pontios]

Some countries want to be our friends, democratically =/= you invading someplace.

Crimea can JOIN you, but you cannot take it by force.

Also - and I can't stress this enough - you are German.

They are raising Russian flags all over Eastern Ukraine... :lol: You call that by force?

[Pontios]

Does that mean that NATO member Greece (and Greek fascists) tends to lean to support Putin and Kremlin? Is there a will in Greece to participate in defending other NATO members? Or is it better to turn right to Turkey with this question?

To hell with NATO.

[Äijä]

I realise that. but with did sign a deal with cameron, didn't we? I could swear the military was part of the deal.

Nothing concrete, Finland, Sweden and Norway seem to have a "secret" pact.
Finland has made some purchases from Netherlands and Norway fro equipment before maybe slotted to Dutch Marines, this is my speculation.
I think it means the Dutch Marines are out from the north, British and American Marines are the ones most likely slotted to the area.

[Pure ja]

http://batkivshchyna.com.ua/news/open/977
this so called acting president was told "Russia would use army if civilians in eastern
Ukraine and Crimea will be in danger". Like i said early this mornig, Russia is just going to protect civilians and let them freely participate president elections:)

There can't be any free and open elections in such a situation.
And independent Crimea can kiss goodby to international recognition. The only path to international recognition is via international peacekeepers and Russian troops do not qualify.

[ALL]

Also - and I can't stress this enough - you are German.

Do you have any proof?

[RussiaPrussia]

NATO? Who? When? Where? And with whom?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Ger many

go fuck your self

[RussiaPrussia]

There can't be any free and open elections in such a situation.
And independent Crimea can kiss goodby to international recognition. The only path to international recognition is via international peacekeepers and Russian troops do not qualify.

recognition? It will be russian oblast

[Hercus Monte]

people just became living shields in the balaklava boarder check point in a conflict between Ukrainian border patrol and armed Russian militia.

the russian militia took them as hostages as to secure that ''no blood would be spilled''.

[Pure ja]

ukraine is a nato member?

No.

[Minesweeper]

'Russia, you must not invade another country, it hasn't attacked you.'

'How DARE you? We'll invade who we want. This isn't 1991.'

Oh come on, just few years ago EU bombed Lybia and directly helped the rebels. Now when safety of ethnic Russians is endangered, Europe and America are there to condem Russian reaction that is more justified than any imperialist war they fought since the fall of communism.

[RandoBloom]

Oh come on, just few years ago EU bombed Lybia and directly helped the rebels. Now when safety of ethnic Russians is endangered, Europe and America are there to condem Russian reaction that is more justified than any imperialist war they fought since the fall of communism.


How are they endangered?
Clasical Serb bullshit, if a country isnt ruled by you you are endangered

[Longbowman]

They are raising Russian flags all over Eastern Ukraine... :lol: You call that by force?

Then they should be allowed to vote to leave. No force needed.

[Longbowman]

Oh come on, just few years ago EU bombed Lybia and directly helped the rebels. Now when safety of ethnic Russians is endangered, Europe and America are there to condem Russian reaction that is more justified than any imperialist war they fought since the fall of communism.

Their safety really isn't endangered.

[Longbowman]

Do you have any proof?

Dude, he lives in Germany, is of German blood, is a German citizen, his IP traces to Germany, he speaks German (and not Russian) as a first language, and, oh, he admits to being German.

[Äijä]

Then they should be allowed to vote to leave. No force needed.

What is the British response, parties and the man in the street?

[Longbowman]

What is the British response, parties and the man in the street?

The parties support the Ukrainian people without wanting to get involved. The man on the street the same.

[Pure ja]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Ger many

go fuck your self

"...The scholar Stephen F. Cohen asserted in 2005 that a commitment was given that NATO would never expand further east,[4] but according to Robert Zoellick, then a US State Department official involved in the Two Plus Four negotiating process, this appears to be a misperception; no formal commitment of the sort was made.[5] On May 7, 2008, the former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev, in an interview with the British newspaper The Daily Telegraph, repeated his view that such a commitment had been made.[1]..."

No formal commitment was made.

Also read and weep on another exerpt:

"Under the terms of the treaty, the Four Powers renounced all rights they formerly held in Germany, including in regard to the city of Berlin. As a result, the united Germany would become fully sovereign on 15 March 1991, with Berlin as its capital. It would be free to make and belong to alliances, and without any foreign influence in its politics."

[Äijä]

"...The scholar Stephen F. Cohen asserted in 2005 that a commitment was given that NATO would never expand further east,[4] but according to Robert Zoellick, then a US State Department official involved in the Two Plus Four negotiating process, this appears to be a misperception; no formal commitment of the sort was made.[5] On May 7, 2008, the former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev, in an interview with the British newspaper The Daily Telegraph, repeated his view that such a commitment had been made.[1]..."

No formal commitment was made.

Also read and weep on another exerpt:

"Under the terms of the treaty, the Four Powers renounced all rights they formerly held in Germany, including in regard to the city of Berlin. As a result, the united Germany would become fully sovereign on 15 March 1991, with Berlin as its capital. It would be free to make and belong to alliances, and without any foreign influence in its politics."

Russia respects only treaties that are in its interest, we really dont have to care anymore when they dont want to go the UN route.

[ALL]

Dude, he lives in Germany, is of German blood, is a German citizen, his IP traces to Germany, he speaks German (and not Russian) as a first language, and, oh, he admits to being German.
That means nothing to me, how about giving the rank and unit of the German army his family served in WW1 WW2?

[Longbowman]

That means nothing to me, how about giving the rank and unit of the German army his family served in WW1 WW2?

How the hell should I know? The dude's a Kraut, end of.

[Graham]

That means nothing to me, how about giving the rank and unit of the German army his family served in WW1 WW2?

His parents/parent are/is Russian or something like that I think.

[Minesweeper]

Their safety really isn't endangered.

It is with tendency of becoming evenmore endangered. The legal president they voted for is overthrown by violation of agreement that he signed with oposition the day before. New government is noticably anti-Russian and authoritarian. If safety of ethnic Russian wasn't endangered, they wouldn't be protesting on a large scale. Unlike in Kiev, Russian protesters are not organized by ultranationalist organizations whose armed mobs wander around Kiev and harras people who belong to certain ethnic, political and religious groups.

[Hercus Monte]

It is with tendency of becoming evenmore endangered. The legal president they voted for is overthrown by violation of agreement that he signed with oposition the day before. New government is noticably anti-Russian and authoritarian. If safety of ethnic Russian wasn't endangered, they wouldn't be protesting on a large scale. Unlike in Kiev, Russian protesters are not organized by ultranationalist organizations whose armed mobs wander around Kiev and harras people who belong to certain ethnic, political and religious groups.
have you seen the news lately? russian news channels were calling every single protester fascist almost every 3 words for the past 4 months. If I had been subject to such propoganda I would be protesting as well.