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View Full Version : Nazi Germany Nordic Beauty Ideal



Jarl
12-13-2009, 03:58 PM
http://www.sovietstory.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/nazi-soviet-posters.jpg

http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/614/WW2_Hitler_poster_aleman_nazi_8_Hitler_Cientizta.j pg

http://www.uncp.edu/home/rwb/propaganda_family2.jpg

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/lc/image/alpha/poster26.jpg

http://englishrussia.com/images/racial_families/2.jpg


Not exactly the Coonian Hallstatt type. What do you think???

Liffrea
12-13-2009, 04:47 PM
Hmmm let's see:

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/Liffrea66/adolf-hitler.jpg

Not quite....next.....

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/Liffrea66/hitler.jpg

This man plunged the world into war dressed like that...

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/Liffrea66/goering.jpg

Errr....we'll call you.....next....

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll54/Liffrea66/heinrich-himmler.jpg

You've got to be joking...

Jarl
12-13-2009, 04:56 PM
Certainy a far cry from Coonian fetishized narrow-face "Halstatts":

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/429/troe291.jpg

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/8427/troe292.jpg

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1088/troe273.jpg


http://englishrussia.com/images/racial_families/2.jpg

There definitely seems to be some disparity between Coonian Nordic and Eickstedt's Gunther's Nordic... Or perhaps it was the Nazis who had a different view?

Definitely the Nazis blended Falish and Nordic into one, while Coon blended Meds and Nordics. There is no trace of Coonian Nordo-Mediterranism in these posters.

Psychonaut
12-13-2009, 04:56 PM
In the posters, the men usually seem to be Fälid or Trønder, two types that hypertrophy certain masculine traits like the strong jaw. The women tend to look more Nordid and feminine though.

Jarl
12-13-2009, 05:05 PM
In the posters, the men usually seem to be Fälid or Trønder, two types that hypertrophy certain masculine traits like the strong jaw. The women tend to look more Nordid and feminine though.

Indeed! They faces tend to be masculine with pronounced strong jaws and zygomatic bones not really compressed. Face is often rectangular and jaw is more horizontal rather than steeply sloping.

http://wwwu.uni-klu.ac.at/hstockha/cmsms/uploads/images/Rassenkarte2.jpg

This "Rassenkarte" lists prominent chins and rectangular faces as most highly valued... Also, if Im correct, deep-set eyes. These traits are rather Cro-Magnon-like. They don't really bring the rounded, gracile Halstatt into your mind.

The Black Prince
12-13-2009, 05:40 PM
I once readed something another poster wrote on Skadi, years ago (can't recall his name). It was about the class system as applied by Himmler in his Gestapo and SS. In total six classes were defined based upon phenotype and ancestry (4 generations).
Concerning phenotype it was something like this:

Klas I: Nordisch, Falisch oder Nordisch-Falisch
Klas II: Nordish/Falische mit Westischen oder Dinarischen einschlag
Klas III: Dinarisch, Westisch oder Nordisch/Falisch mit Ostischen/Ostbaltischen Einschlag.
Klas IV: etc..
Klas V: ..
Klas VI: ..

Only the first two classes e.g. pred. Nordid/Faelid or Nordid/Faelid mixed with Dinarid/Mediterranid were allowed in the SS. Needless to say that during the middle of the war the rules were softenend and also the third and fourth class people were allowed enlistment (Germany and its collaborators were running out of Edelgermanen).

Jarl
12-13-2009, 05:43 PM
Take a look at this German poster:

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/2955/naziaryanposter.jpg

The only visible difference between Nordic and Falish (apart from the fashionale hairstyle of course) is:

- sloping forehead in the Nordic guy

- stronger jaw in the Falish fellow (greater bigonial breadth), giving his face a more pentagonal, rectangular shape


Otherwise, both are pretty much the same.

The Black Prince
12-13-2009, 05:57 PM
The only visible difference between Nordic and Falish (apart from the fashionale hairstyle of course) is:

- sloping forehead in the Nordic guy

- stronger jaw in the Falish fellow (greater bigonial breadth), giving his face a more pentagonal, rectangular shape


Otherwise, both are pretty much the same.

Here is another one:

http://i45.tinypic.com/v4nw8y.jpg

Strangely enough here the Nordisch fellow has a straight forehead and the Faelid fellow a more sloping forehead. I wouldn't call both textbook Nordid and Faelid btw. They rather look what Coon would call West-Germanic type or Anglo-Saxon type with their on overall appearance more looking as overgrown Nordids with rather high heads.

Jarl
12-13-2009, 06:04 PM
Strangely enough here the Nordisch fellow has a straight forehead and the Faelid fellow a more sloping forehead.

Aah! Exactly!!! Funny, isn't it??? :)


I wouldn't call both textbook Nordid and Faelid btw. They rather look what Coon would call West-Germanic type or Anglo-Saxon type with their on overall appearance more looking as overgrown Nordids with rather high heads.

Each typology had its own image of "Nordic" type. I can't exactly comprehend what was the reason for which Coon derived Nordics from Central European, Halstatt crania. However, even Coon's Nordics also are slightly heterogenous. Have a look at his Danubian Nordic type. What the hell is that??? Looking at various Nordics from the Corded and Halstatt plates you also get a varying degree of chin prominence and forehead sloping.

But it strongly appears to me that European Nordic, as defined by German or Polish schools, was quite different to both Coon's Danubian and Halstatt Nordic. I mean... just think of the terms... Halstatt Nordic??? DANUBIAN Nordic???

The Black Prince
12-13-2009, 06:35 PM
Aah! Exactly!!! Funny, isn't it??? :)

Well thats what happens when politics and ideology interfere with science and scholarship. One way or the other politics finds a way to turn the (often still debatable) data for its own pragmatical or ideological needs.;)



Each typology had its own image of "Nordic" type. I can't exactly comprehend what was the reason for which Coon derived Nordics from Central European, Halstatt crania. However, even Coon's Nordics also are slightly heterogenous. Have a look at his Danubian Nordic type. What the hell is that??? Looking at various Nordics from the Corded and Halstatt plates you also get a varying degree of chin prominence and forehead sloping.
Coon saw the Hallstatt crania resembling those of Iron Age Denmark, those of Iron Age Denmark were seen as typical Nordid. Also Von Eickstedt saw those Iron-Age Danes as typical Teuto-Nordid and later Baker in his book 'Race' used the Hallstatt crania as an example that f.i. the Kelts were perhaps once of a rather homogenic Nordid type where as the crania of the later 'true Kelts' of La Tène were not homegenous and not as Nordid on average.

However it is hard to say how all the people of the Hallstatt culture looked since we don't know if all people or only a part of the population got buried. F.i. I don't know if Coon only used the metrical data of crania of the fürstengraber or if there is other data of crania from the Hallstatt culture not found in those elite graves.:confused:



But it strongly appears to me that European Nordic, as defined by German or Polish schools, was quite different to both Coon's Danubian and Halstatt Nordic. I mean... just think of the terms... Halstatt Nordic??? DANUBIAN Nordic???
Danubians also strikes me as highly unlikely being Nordid, they are just mediterranoid and not nordoid in appearance and metrically. Anyway most anthropologists just lumped together in one Nordic group what Coon saw as racial Bruenns, Trönders (North-Germanic mesocephal type), Anglo-Saxon typo's (West-Germanic and early Slavic type), Hallstatt Nordids. About Borreby's I guess most would see part of them as rather Alpinid and the other part as brachycephalized Nordics/Faelids.

Personally I more favour Von Eickstedt his Nordid type. Seeing a more robust, , large headed, square jawed type as the Dalo-Nordid and a slender, narrower type as Teuto-Nordid. Von Eickstedt also wisely said that both types, due to the constant mixture inbetween, racially can't be seen as two distinct types.

Jarl
12-13-2009, 06:54 PM
Well thats what happens when politics and ideology interfere with science and scholarship. One way or the other politics finds a way to turn the (often still debatable) data for its own pragmatical or ideological needs.;)

:) Yeah... I guess to more we are getting into the petty little details the more complex and fantastic a picture we get. In Poland there existed I. Michalski's "morphological school". Michalski came up with about 60 different traits for each racial type, from feet to the shape of the buttocks... His The ridiculous character of such approach was revealed during a discussion with other Polish and Soviet anthropologists when it turned out that by adhering strictly to Michalski's intuitive "guidelines" one would probably find a handful of Nordics in any one country...


Coon saw the Hallstatt crania resembling those of Iron Age Denmark, those of Iron Age Denmark were seen as typical Nordid. Also Von Eickstedt saw those Iron-Age Danes as typical Teuto-Nordid and later Baker in his book 'Race' used the Hallstatt crania as an example that f.i. the Kelts were perhaps once of a rather homogenic Nordid type where as the crania of the later 'true Kelts' of La Tène were not homegenous and not as Nordid on average.

However it is hard to say how all the people of the Hallstatt culture looked since we don't know if all people or only a part of the population got buried. F.i. I don't know if Coon only used the metrical data of crania of the fürstengraber or if there is other data of crania from the Hallstatt culture not found in those elite graves.:confused:

Indeed! It is hard to imagine they looked like Scandinavians living along the Danube. Particularly pigmentation-wise.

It would be really nice to re-evaluate all these Coonian views... How large were the series Coon used? Where did they come from? What archeological culture and time period?

I guess Retzius, Deniker or Ripley adpoted a much better approach. They coined their Nordics from direct studies of modern Nordic populations, not from some 2500 years old cranial series.



Danubians also strikes me as highly unlikely being Nordid, they are just mediterranoid and not nordoid in appearance and metrically.

I do not think any "DANUBIANs" ever existed. Coon himself, in the photo supplement with Danubian Nordic plates, admits that its hard to determine characteristics of this type due to scarcity of Danubian cranial material...

What is a Danubian? Few obscure skulls from the Neolithic? And modern Nordics are judged against Halstatt Illyrians or Celts??? :confused: Come on! You got to be joking me...


Anyway most anthropologists just lumped together in one Nordic group what Coon saw as racial Bruenns, Trönders (North-Germanic mesocephal type), Anglo-Saxon typo's (West-Germanic and early Slavic type), Hallstatt Nordids. About Borreby's I guess most would see part of them as rather Alpinid and the other part as brachycephalized Nordics/Faelids.

Personally I more favour Von Eickstedt his Nordid type. Seeing a more robust, , large headed, square jawed type as the Dalo-Nordid and a slender, narrower type as Teuto-Nordid. Von Eickstedt also wisely said that both types, due to the constant mixture inbetween, racially can't be seen as two distinct types.

Well indeed, Eickstedt's interpretation is sound and much more credible from a classical population genetics standpoint, where a population is the smallest breeding unit subjected to evolution and, consequently, race-formation processes.

Lahtari
12-13-2009, 06:54 PM
Hitler was simply a German supremacist. He only cared about racial ideology when it suited his needs for elevating the German folk as a master race. So it's just natural that the people in their propaganda poster look more German than Scandinavian.

Jarl
12-13-2009, 07:08 PM
Hitler was simply a German supremacist. He only cared about racial ideology when it suited his needs for elevating the German folk as a master race. So it's just natural that the people in their propaganda poster look more German than Scandinavian.

But even in Scandinavia and the Netherlands all the regional means for Facial Index are between 88-93 max. Just above the Central European means. Bryn's data on which Coons relied so heavily shows that too. Yet looking at Coon's Nordics they must have an FI representative of the Somalis.

Vulpix
12-14-2009, 10:28 AM
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3366&stc=1&d=1260790023

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3367&stc=1&d=1260790023

Anthropos
12-14-2009, 07:12 PM
What do you think???

Seems it means mostly Dinaric and Alpine then, judging by these posters. They look German alright.

But who cares? Subrationalism is crap anyway. People who draw any political conclusions from subraces only divide nations in groups against one another, and besides, in reality noone cares, it's just the hobby of a few racialists who are completely estranged from reality.

Jäger
12-15-2009, 10:32 AM
You've got to be joking...
What do you mean? You do not understand the purpose of the ideal, the joke is on you.

Loki
12-17-2009, 04:36 PM
The detailed discussion about Nordic types has been split into its own discussion and can be seen in this thread: On Nordic Types (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11720).

Jäger
12-18-2009, 08:24 AM
Seems it means mostly Dinaric and Alpine then, judging by these posters.
The intention of this thread was to demonstrate (involuntarily?), that Germans did not have a Hallstatt fetish which they put above anything else.

However, propaganda does not reflect what actual politics dictated, Günther has, to this day, the best examples of Nordids, IMHO, and any further atomization (Trönder, Anglo-Saxon, etc) was counterproductive for political decisions (and I believe even scientific ones, however, I am not to dictated what should be researched).


Subrationalism is crap anyway.
I agree :D, I prefer rationalism as well.


People who draw any political conclusions from subraces only divide nations in groups against one another...
Is this what happened in NS-Germany? My grandparents don't seem to remember your wisdom.
What divides nations into groups are idiots, incapable of understanding group sciences, and thus promoting fear of exclusion.


This "Rassenkarte" lists prominent chins and rectangular faces as most highly valued...
The SS-Rassenkarte shows in their first column, for facial structure, "schmaloval - lang, rechteckig" [narrow (oval) - long, square], and chins are not supposed to be "prominent", but projecting.

Guapo
03-11-2010, 03:14 AM
This guy always struck me as your Typical German

http://i43.tinypic.com/16gwec0.jpg

poiuytrewq0987
03-11-2010, 04:22 AM
This guy always struck me as your Typical German



There isn't really a typical German, scientifically speaking. Germany is a big country with diverse phenotypes across German peoples.

Saruman
03-11-2010, 07:38 PM
Somehow when I think of typical German, I think of faelid. And Til Schweiger is a German. :) But of course it's quite a diverse country.

Albion
07-01-2012, 02:43 PM
I've always thought Kirk Douglas looked like Hitler's ideal back in the day. A Jew that looked like Hitler's Aryan ideal, oh the irony... :rolleyes:

http://noellepierce.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/douglas6.jpg

safinator
07-01-2012, 02:57 PM
Behold, my child, the Nordic man,
And be as like him as you can:
His legs are long - his mind is slow
His hair is lank and made of tow.

And here we have the Alpine race.
Oh! what a broad and brutal face.
His skin is of a dirty yellow
He is a most unpleasant fellow.

The most degraded of them all
Mediterranean we call.
His hair is crisp and even curls
And he is saucy with the girls.

Corvus
07-01-2012, 03:02 PM
Most Northern Germans really fit to this schema the Nationalsocialists proclaimed.
But not the Southern Germans and Austrians who have a strong tendancy to look Alpinid or Dinarid.
The strange and a little bit ironic thing is that Hitler and his staff were mostly southerns who did not by far meet the crieteria he set for the Nordic ideal.

Nurzat
07-01-2012, 03:03 PM
premium type

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/8162/sf001.jpg

Corvus
07-01-2012, 03:06 PM
Behold, my child, the Nordic man,
And be as like him as you can:
His legs are long - his mind is slow
His hair is lank and made of tow.

And here we have the Alpine race.
Oh! what a broad and brutal face.
His skin is of a dirty yellow
He is a most unpleasant fellow.

The most degraded of them all
Mediterranean we call.
His hair is crisp and even curls
And he is saucy with the girls.

LOL where did you find this one :D

Mistic
07-01-2012, 04:24 PM
....

Not exactly the Coonian Hallstatt type. What do you think???

I honestly haven't met any single German who looks like that.

beaver
10-15-2012, 04:26 PM
I can distiguish Naci pictures from ours :) A little otrher style

Ánleifr
10-15-2012, 04:49 PM
Most Northern Germans really fit to this schema the Nationalsocialists proclaimed.
But not the Southern Germans and Austrians who have a strong tendancy to look Alpinid or Dinarid.
The strange and a little bit ironic thing is that Hitler and his staff were mostly southerns who did not by far meet the crieteria he set for the Nordic ideal.

So what was Hilter's reasoning behind selecting Nordics as his master race? What did he feel about Keltic-Nordics or Borrebys or Atlantid's and other "white" phenotypes?

Balmung
10-15-2012, 04:49 PM
Its funny, it was always the people who weren't Nordic or Nordic looking that always were the extremists.

You ruined it for the rest of us, now if i call myself Nordic in America, i am a nazi. Now if i act a little racist, or say the slightest thing that minorities don't agree with, instant nazi by default. Thanks a lot Hitler & friends.

:lol:

Ánleifr
10-15-2012, 04:51 PM
Its funny, it was always the people who weren't Nordic or Nordic looking that always were the extremists.

You ruined it for the rest of us, now if i call myself Nordic in America, i am a nazi. Now if i act a little racist, or say the slightest thing that minorities don't agree with, instant nazi by default. Thanks a lot Hitler & friends.

:lol:

yeah, I remember back like in the 80's when having a shaved head wasn't the style that if anyone did shave their head everyone automatically thought they were skinheads LOL

The Lawspeaker
10-15-2012, 04:52 PM
What does a real Aryan look like ?

As blonde as Hitler, as tall as Goebbels and as thin as Göring.

Ánleifr
10-15-2012, 04:53 PM
What does a real Aryan look like ?

Blonde like Hitler, tall like Goebbels and as thin as Göring.

I thought Aryans were from the Middle East/Caucasus area anyway??

The Lawspeaker
10-15-2012, 04:56 PM
I thought Aryans were from the Middle East/Caucasus area anyway??

Right: Aryans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_race). And now look up the following phrase: I am taking the piss out of (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=take%20the%20piss%20out%20of) the Nazi's.

beaver
10-15-2012, 04:56 PM
What does a real Aryan look like ?
Churka:) Trust me.

Ánleifr
10-15-2012, 05:00 PM
so what did they do with people whose parents were dark haired and dark eyed but the children were blond and blue eyed or vice versa? Did they know of the concept of genes skipping generations?

beaver
10-15-2012, 05:14 PM
so what did they do with people whose parents were dark haired and dark eyed but the children were blond and blue eyed or vice versa? Did they know of the concept of genes skipping generations?
we all (almost) speak their language.

Mans not hot
10-15-2012, 05:15 PM
I imagine teh old Aryan looked like Aherne with swarthy skin.

sevruk
10-15-2012, 05:51 PM
http://www.sovietstory.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/nazi-soviet-posters.jpg

Soviet poster encourages different peoples to unite against the invaders, most others posters were blond balto-CM looking people
http://radikal.ru/F/i067.radikal.ru/1003/0f/4adeb00c2eec.jpg
http://radikal.ru/F/s12.radikal.ru/i185/1003/f8/fc98d2cd8e0f.jpg
http://radikal.ru/F/s61.radikal.ru/i174/1005/11/13a736442865.jpg
http://radikal.ru/F/i036.radikal.ru/1005/83/d67eae66d339.jpg
http://radikal.ru/F/s41.radikal.ru/i093/1005/32/43cdbd8b7535.jpg
http://radikal.ru/F/s19.radikal.ru/i192/1005/1a/40c938f3ef40.jpg
http://i341.photobucket.com/albums/o390/cheger_photo/iskusstvo/Sovok/ParenthoodSovPost/parenthoodsovpost_00001.jpg
http://i341.photobucket.com/albums/o390/cheger_photo/iskusstvo/Sovok/ParenthoodSovPost/parenthoodsovpost_00016.jpg
http://i341.photobucket.com/albums/o390/cheger_photo/iskusstvo/Sovok/ParenthoodSovPost/parenthoodsovpost_00018.jpg

beaver
10-15-2012, 06:01 PM
Soviet poster encourages different peoples to unite against the invaders, most others posters were blond balto-CM looking people
Also - dinaric component, especially, for Ukrainians brothers.

sevruk
10-15-2012, 06:22 PM
Sorry for off-top, a little more of the "Soviet Nordic Beauty Ideal"
http://pics.livejournal.com/sahallin/pic/0038kaek
http://pics.livejournal.com/sahallin/pic/0038q676
http://pics.livejournal.com/sahallin/pic/0036ecd9
http://pics.livejournal.com/sahallin/pic/0036kg3e
http://pics.livejournal.com/sahallin/pic/0036gz18
http://pics.livejournal.com/sahallin/pic/0036qf7p
http://pics.livejournal.com/sahallin/pic/0036ypae
http://pics.livejournal.com/sahallin/pic/0039g3tb
http://pics.livejournal.com/sahallin/pic/0039k80f
http://pics.livejournal.com/sahallin/pic/003a27e5
http://pics.livejournal.com/sahallin/pic/003a43ws

Anusiya
10-15-2012, 06:23 PM
Meh, this little has to do with nordicism and looks. This simply projects the better "Soviet" worker be it man or woman.

sevruk
10-15-2012, 06:31 PM
Meh, this little has to do with nordicism and looks. This simply projects the better "Soviet" worker be it man or woman.

in most posters shows not workers

beaver
10-15-2012, 06:56 PM
Meh, this little has to do with nordicis
m and looks. This simply projects the better "Soviet" worker be it man or woman
They just drawed ideal workrer or male worker and got blue-eyed blonds No agenda. There were ni such ideas.

Anusiya
10-15-2012, 06:58 PM
in most posters shows not workers

All were considered workers back then. From the Secretary General down to the last goose in a village.

sevruk
10-15-2012, 07:00 PM
All were considered workers back then. From the Secretary General down to the last goose in a village.

http://rusk.ru/images/2009/16168.jpg

Anusiya
10-15-2012, 09:46 PM
in most posters shows not workers

In your avatar there's a hammer and a sickle, a swastika, a slavonic cross, the russian eagle crest and all are painted red. Your argument is invalid.