Statements of Personal Solidarity with the People of Ukraine

[Longbowman]

I'm not sure how many Ukrainian posters we have, or their politics. However, I would here like to simply proclaim my support for the people of Ukraine during this trying time. I am of partial Ukrainian descent, myself; my paternal great-grandfather was from the Ivano-Frankivsk rayon in Western Ukraine, the Ukrainian people's heartland. He would have thought of himself as Austro-Hungarian, and served on the Eastern Front as an army officer fighting the Russians. When the Empire fell, he fled to Vienna, before Ukraine was absorbed into the USSR, where my grandfather was born. Many relatives of his from the area went on to die in the holodomor, the Purges, and then in World War Two.

Ukraine has been beholden to the prying claws of Russia long enough. It is time for the Ukrainians to choose their own destiny. They are deserving of transparent government. Regardless of what choice they make, the choice must be theirs. I pray they opt to integrate with their neighbours and brothers to the West; certainly, I pray the puppet government folds and lets the people decide, either way.

But above all I hope the violence abates.

Sincerely, a 1/8th Ukrainian from overseas.

If anyone else would also like to indicate their feelings of solidarity with the Ukrainians, please do so. No ultra-Rusophiles, please.

[Proctor]

Good thread :thumb001:

[GrebluBro]

Ukraine should join EU

[TheBlondeSalad]

Oh can I join you? I actually know quite a few people from Ukraine.

Truly sorry for what has taken place over recent months and especially this past week. An utterly appalling state of affairs that has no place in a modern, civilised world. Stay strong and pull through, my thoughts are with you guys. Yours sincerely.

[Longbowman]

Good thread :thumb001:

Ta ;)


Ukraine should join EU

It will happen, whether in 5 years or 50. It will happen.

[GrebluBro]

It will happen, whether in 5 years or 50. It will happen.

The sooner the better

[Longbowman]

Oh can I join you? I actually know quite a few people from Ukraine.

Truly sorry for what has taken place over recent months and especially this past week. An utterly appalling state of affairs that has no place in a modern, civilised world. Stay strong and pull through, my thoughts are with you guys. Yours sincerely.

Good point. I'll edit the thread to reflect other people perhaps wanting to add their voices to ours :)

[Acquisitor]

I'm not sure how many Ukrainian posters we have, or their politics. However, I would here like to simply proclaim my support for the people of Ukraine during this trying time. I am of partial Ukrainian descent, myself; my paternal great-grandfather was from the Ivano-Frankivsk rayon in Western Ukraine, the Ukrainian people's heartland. He would have thought of himself as Austro-Hungarian, and served on the Eastern Front as an army officer fighting the Russians. When the Empire fell, he fled to Vienna, before Ukraine was absorbed into the USSR, where my grandfather was born. Many relatives of his from the area went on to die in the holodomor, the Purges, and then in World War Two.

Ukraine has been beholden to the prying claws of Russia long enough. It is time for the Ukrainians to choose their own destiny. They are deserving of transparent government. Regardless of what choice they make, the choice must be theirs. I pray they opt to integrate with their neighbours and brothers to the West; certainly, I pray the puppet government folds and lets the people decide, either way.

But above all I hope the violence abates.

Sincerely, a 1/8th Ukrainian from overseas.

sounds quite naive.

Ukraine has had 23 years to get a democratic not (or less) corrupted government and to get a stable economy and it has failed miserably, so there is no choice but to beg Kremlin for money since the EU cant offer any.

Also the country is very divided among West/East + smaller other parties such as Crimea. It's all very complicated.

The EU doesn't need a large bankrupt country btw, the EU can't even afford to support it. Neither do we need millions of new immigrants.

[Longbowman]

sounds quite naive.

Ukraine has had 23 years to get a democratic not (or less) corrupted government and to get a stable economy and it has failed miserably, so there is no choice but to beg Kremlin for money since the EU cant offer any.

Also the country is very divided among West/East + smaller other parties such as Crimea. It's all very complicated.

The EU doesn't need a large bankrupt country btw, the EU can't even afford to support it. Neither do we need millions of new immigrants.

The EU can afford Greece. The EU must afford Ukraine. The EU can develop Ukraine and turn it into a productive country free of Russia's yoke. I am aware parts of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea are heavily pro-Russian; if Eastern Ukraine wanted to break away, that might be a good solution.

I don't care for your telling me I'm naive; your cold economics don't affect the reality that under Russian influence Ukraine is suffering, and the protests have turned very nasty. Under the auspices of a democratic and transparent union Ukraine could flourish. Russia had to offer Ukraine concessions to prevent even its corrupt government accepting EU help instead.

Finally, the EU is not bankrupt.

[Windischer]

The EU can develop Ukraine and turn it into a productive country free of Russia's yoke. I am aware parts of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea are heavily pro-Russian; if Eastern Ukraine wanted to break away, that might be a good solution.

I don't care for your telling me I'm naive; your cold economics don't affect the reality that under Russian influence Ukraine is suffering, and the protests have turned very nasty. Under the auspices of a democratic and transparent union Ukraine could flourish. Russia had to offer Ukraine concessions to prevent even its corrupt government accepting EU help instead.

its not eu job to develop member states. the eu can help, sure, just as it helped us by allocating western taxpayer money (thank you :P ) through eu funds, which also do considerable damage (good soil for more corruption).
nobody, eu, you, noone can simply make ppl in former eastbloc stop being corrupt. just as eu cant "make" slovakia advance more, it cannot do so with ukraine, it depends on ppl.
one of the conditions of ukrainian entry would be finally recognizing rusyn minority and language and granting autonomy to subcarpathia as per 1991 referendum but tbh i dont see it going to happen in near future. ukrainians tend to get rabid over this issue. having ukraine or at least subcarpathia in eu would certainly help my region (subcarpathia is like half of my region cut away and fenced by stalin) but i dont see it happening in next 20 years and in case of subcarpathia its more like a wet dream of mine and a few separatist activists :)

[Methmatician]

Viva la free Ukraine, I guess.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1/1947916_289041051244042_1863141339_n.jpg

[Acquisitor]

The EU can afford Greece. The EU must afford Ukraine. The EU can develop Ukraine and turn it into a productive country free of Russia's yoke. I am aware parts of Eastern Ukraine and Crimea are heavily pro-Russian; if Eastern Ukraine wanted to break away, that might be a good solution.

I don't care for your telling me I'm naive; your cold economics don't affect the reality that under Russian influence Ukraine is suffering, and the protests have turned very nasty. Under the auspices of a democratic and transparent union Ukraine could flourish. Russia had to offer Ukraine concessions to prevent even its corrupt government accepting EU help instead.

Finally, the EU is not bankrupt.

lol, Ukraine would require tens of billions a year, for decades, and it would all go down the drain without any return on investment for us. I, as a tax paying EU citizen oppose that idea, since its my money we are talking about here.

Ukraine is not Poland or Romania, its actually way bigger and worse, its a huge country which is very poor and very divided. It barely has any natural resources, well they do have some natural gas and iron but that's about it. It means that to be prosperous Ukraine would need to build a highly developed hightech economy. It would take generations to change the mindset of an average citizen and likely trillions in investment.

You say that they are suffering "under russian influence" = bullshit, they are suffering under their own misery, which they are themselves to blame for. They as a nation are responsible for today's situation, not Russia, not the EU but themselves. Besides, if you give them money they will simply steal it :)

[Hierarchalist]

It's not going to be easy to remove Ukraine from Russia's grip..Kremlin is still stuck in the Cold War mentality.

[denz]

Ta ;)



It will happen, whether in 5 years or 50. It will happen.

They should follow Turkey's way. Hundred millions year later, we will join Jupiter union (JU) with Germans

[Empecinado]

It is outrageous how a legitimate protest against government and corruption is being used by the tyranical powers to reach their totalitarian goals. Going into EU won't solve any of their problems.

[Hochmeister]

my paternal great-grandfather was from the Ivano-Frankivsk rayon in Western Ukraine, the Ukrainian people's heartland.


It's not the heart of Ukrainian people. But Poltava and Kiev are.
Ivano-Frankovsk is simply a land in Western Ukraine, which is very different from the rest of Ukraine.
You are talking about Galicia in Austrian Empire, from where your grandparent was from. Actually Ukraine was in Russian Empire, which Ukraine joined via personal unification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Pereyaslav) in 1654.
But Galicia was in Poland and Austria, it has another religion and another dialect.


He would have thought of himself as Austro-Hungarian, and served on the Eastern Front as an army officer fighting the Russians.


Fighting Russians and Ukrainians.


When the Empire fell, he fled to Vienna

Austrian Empire fell and Galicia was taken by Poland, whom it always belonged, since Galicia is considered to be Mala Polska - heart of Poland.


, before Ukraine was absorbed into the USSR, where my grandfather was born.

Ukraine created USSR together with Russia, Belarus and Zakavkaz Federation. And Galicia joined Ukraine only in 1939 (USSR was created in 1922). :picard2:

It just shows your level of "knowledge" about Ukraine.

Stop confusing Galicia with the whole Ukraine, it's as ignorant as to confuse England with UK.

[Hochmeister]

they are suffering "under russian influence" = bullshit

It's 23 years of Ukrainian independence, but this stupid Galician freaks from Canada etc. never stop spreading this nonsense.

[Longbowman]

lol, Ukraine would require tens of billions a year, for decades, and it would all go down the drain without any return on investment for us. I, as a tax paying EU citizen oppose that idea, since its my money we are talking about here.

Ukraine is not Poland or Romania, its actually way bigger and worse, its a huge country which is very poor and very divided. It barely has any natural resources, well they do have some natural gas and iron but that's about it. It means that to be prosperous Ukraine would need to build a highly developed hightech economy. It would take generations to change the mindset of an average citizen and likely trillions in investment.

You say that they are suffering "under russian influence" = bullshit, they are suffering under their own misery, which they are themselves to blame for. They as a nation are responsible for today's situation, not Russia, not the EU but themselves. Besides, if you give them money they will simply steal it :)

Look, I disagree with literally everything you've said, some of which I think is very myopic to boot, but this thread is about suffering and not economics, so I'd ask you to open another thread for it.

[Acquisitor]

Look, I disagree with literally everything you've said, some of which I think is very myopic to boot, but this thread is about suffering and not economics, so I'd ask you to open another thread for it.

ok then my point is even more simple "I'm not ready to pay money, to relieve their suffering which they are themselves to blame for. Not me, but them. So I'm not willing to pay for it".

there :)

and one more argument, Ukraine+Belarus form a nice buffer between the EU and Russia.

[Longbowman]

It's not the heart of Ukrainian people. But Poltava and Kiev are.
Ivano-Frankovsk is simply a land in Western Ukraine, which is very different from the rest of Ukraine.
You are talking about Galicia in Austrian Empire, from where your grandparent was from. Actually Ukraine was in Russian Empire, which Ukraine joined via personal unification (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Pereyaslav) in 1654.
But Galicia was in Poland and Austria, it has another religion and another dialect.

Today, Western Ukraine is 90%+ Ukrainian whereas Kiev and the East are very much not. It's like saying 'London is the heart of the British people' - no, it's the British capital.

Yes, Galicia. Regardless of this ridiculous type of third-world nationalism you seem to enjoy, it is irrelevant how much the Ukrainian government wanted to join the Russian empire 400 years ago to escape Polish domination. They were caught between a rock and a hard place.

There is a Polish part of Galicia but that's not where my family is from or what I'm talking about or relevant to the discussion because not everything is about Poland. The Galicians of Ukraine speak Ukrainian and though there is a Catholic minority they are primarily Orthodox. Not that that's relevant.


Fighting Russians and Ukrainians.

And many other unwilling peoples of the Russian Empire, yes.


Austrian Empire fell and Galicia was taken by Poland, whom it always belonged, since Galicia is considered to be Mala Polska - heart of Poland.

'We deserve this country because historically it belonged to us once' - it's like listening to an ethnic Zionist.

But anyway, no, not really (Poland did take Western Galicia but as mentioned that is, more or less, currently part of Poland anyway)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)#First_World_Wa r_and_Polish-Ukrainian_conflict
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic


Ukraine created USSR together with Russia, Belarus and Zakavkaz Federation. And Galicia joined Ukraine only in 1939 (USSR was created in 1922). :picard2:

Yes, the Ukrainians were certainly the driving force behind this move.


It just shows your level of "knowledge" about Ukraine.

Stop confusing Galicia with the whole Ukraine, it's as ignorant as to confuse England with UK.

You're a prick with an autistic view of national identity. The world will never dance to your tune.

[Longbowman]

ok then my point is even more simple "I'm not ready to pay money, to relieve their suffering which they are themselves to blame for. Not me, but them. So I'm not willing to pay for it".

there :)

and one more argument, Ukraine+Belarus form a nice buffer between the EU and Russia.

As if Belarus isn't a de facto part of Russia anyway. Buffer states only work when they're in your sphere of influence.

Then you must be anti-EU in general. No point paying money to the Greeks, southerners, Irish - we should just have a 'Northern European Union.' Right?

[Acquisitor]

As if Belarus isn't a de facto part of Russia anyway. Buffer states only work when they're in your sphere of influence.

Then you must be anti-EU in general. No point paying money to the Greeks, southerners, Irish - we should just have a 'Northern European Union.' Right?

No point in paying to the Greeks indeed. Absolutely no point, its a small useless country which will not grow into an economic horse power and will not repay the debt. It's a poor investment to help Greece.

Investment requires a so called ROI or return on investment, preferably a quick one and a large one. Greek ROI is negative, very negative. When it became obvious that the Greek society and politicians defrauded the EU my first thought was "kick them from the €zone and from the EU, let their living standard fall to the level of Albania/Romania or so, its where they as a society belong". The Greek's society productivity and work ethics are inferior, they are also politically immature and I doubt its going to change.

As I have already stated, giving someone money is only relevant when there is a future return on investment. Giving money to someone who can't handle it or who can not be taught to earn money by himself is irrelevant, such a transaction is a waste of precious money so I'm strongly against it.

[Foxy]

I join you. I think that in no part of Europe, and possibly of the world, such events should occur, and I agree that Ukrainians should be free to choose what to be.

[Longbowman]

No point in paying to the Greeks indeed. Absolutely no point, its a small useless country which will not grow into an economic horse power and will not repay the debt. It's a poor investment to help Greece.

Investment requires a so called ROI or return on investment, preferably a quick one and a large one. Greek ROI is negative, very negative. When it became obvious that the Greek society and politicians defrauded the EU my first thought was "kick them from the €zone and from the EU, let their living standard fall to the level of Albania/Romania or so, its where they as a society belong". The Greek's society productivity and work ethics are inferior, they are also politically immature and I doubt its going to change.

As I have already stated, giving someone money is only relevant when there is a future return on investment. Giving money to someone who can't handle it or who can not be taught to earn money by himself is irrelevant, such a transaction is a waste of precious money so I'm strongly against it.

At least you're consistent :)

However, I don't equate the two, and we could use the Ukrainian workforce and raw materials and resources.

[Acquisitor]

At least you're consistent :)

However, I don't equate the two, and we could use the Ukrainian workforce and raw materials and resources.

As if there is not enough cheap workforce in the rest of Eastern Europe already.

And the iron ore is a cheap commodity which can be purchased without Ukraine being in the EU. Trust me, they will not only extract it from the ground, but also bring it to you, beg you to buy it from them, and offer you a discount if you negotiate well enough. It's all they have, their only commodity which is easily available, their only source of easy money, so they are at a large disadvantage :)

[Longbowman]

As if there is not enough cheap workforce in the rest of Eastern Europe already.

And the iron ore is a cheap commodity which can be purchased without Ukraine being in the EU. Trust me, they will not only extract it from the ground, but also bring it to you, beg you to buy it from them, and offer you a discount if you negotiate well enough. It's all they have, their only commodity, their only source of easy money, so they are at a large disadvantage :)

Agricultural resources, too. And industrial ones. And a good position on the Black Sea.

Anyway, you think small, my friend.

[Acquisitor]

Agricultural resources, too. And industrial ones. And a good position on the Black Sea..


Agricultural resources ? Do you think Europe needs agricultural resources ? Is there a shortage of food in Europe ? Don't we have Spain and France which can feed the entire Europe and have untapped deserves of agricultural land ?

Doesn't Europe already have two leeches in the form of Bulgaria and Romania with a rather large coast on the Black Sea ? Isn't it more than enough for the relatively irrelevant Black Sea ?

[Longbowman]

Agricultural resources ? Do you think Europe needs agricultural resources ? Is there a shortage of food in Europe ? Don't we have Spain and France which can feed the entire Europe and have untapped deserves of agricultural land ?

Doesn't Europe already have two leeches in the form of Bulgaria and Romania with a rather large coast on the Black Sea ? Isn't it more than enough for the relatively irrelevant Black Sea ?

Yes, we're already rich, but we could be richer.

Ultimately the EU should be a political and democratic powerhouse, not just a moneymaking endeavour for Belgium.

[Acquisitor]

Yes, we're already rich, but we could be richer.

you don't become richer by making very questionable investments which would take many decades to see any hypothetical return for.

many things can change in the coming decades, this entire investment can become worthless if certain events happen, so its a very very high risk investment which is again very questioable.



Ultimately the EU should be a political and democratic powerhouse, not just a moneymaking endeavour for Belgium.

Belgium is not a net receiver of the EU aid, I can assure you, our life standard has not changed in any positive way singe the introduction of the €, on the contrary. Yes, Brussels is host of the Euro parliament and some other rather nasty European structures, yes the city likely benefits from it somewhat, but overall, the EU cost me money, because this entity makes questionable investments without asking what I and others think about it.

[Longbowman]

you don't become richer by making very questionable investments which would take many decades to see any hypothetical return for.

many things can change in the coming decades, this entire investment can become worthless if certain events happen, so its a very very high risk investment which is again very questioable.




Belgium is not a net receiver of the EU aid, I can assure you, our life standard has not changed in any positive way singe the introduction of the €, on the contrary. Yes, Brussels is host of the Euro parliament and some other rather nasty European structures, yes the city likely benefits from it somewhat, but overall, the EU cost me money, because this entity makes questionable investments without asking what I and others think about it.

As I keep saying, it's not [just] about money, but I'm sure Ukraine would quickly become a net contributor.

[Acquisitor]

As I keep saying, it's not [just] about money, but I'm sure Ukraine would quickly become a net contributor.

what is it about then if its not about money ? do the Ukrainians have a source of holy water in their country which makes one young and immortal ? a source they don't want to share unless their country is accepted into the EU ?

Tell me WHY you think that Ukraine would quickly become a net contributor. I don't see a single reason to support this theory, but maybe you do, so let's discuss it.

[Hochmeister]

Today, Western Ukraine is 90%+ Ukrainian whereas Kiev and the East are very much not.


LOL. Poltava is considered to have the best preserved form of Ukrainian identity in Ukraine and by Ukrainians.
Galicia almost never existed together with Ukraine in the same country. Probably only 1000 years ago during something like 100 years.


Regardless of this ridiculous type of third-world nationalism you seem to enjoy

:bored: ?


it is irrelevant how much the Ukrainian government wanted to join the Russian empire 400 years ago to escape Polish domination. They were caught between a rock and a hard place.


Nope. Rus'ky (руськи) was the way how Ukrainians called themeselves back in those days (from Rus'). They considered it to be a Union with their East brothers, since both Russians and Ukrainians are heirs of Rus'.

Do you support Scottish independence btw? There was more reason for Ukrs to join Moscovy than for Scots to join England.


There is a Polish part of Galicia

Nope, Galicia wholly is considered to be Malapolska, with all ethnic groups there.


The Galicians of Ukraine speak Ukrainian

Their dialect is different.


a Catholic minority they are primarily Orthodox

They are not Orthodox. They are Eastern Catholics of Byzantine right, e.i. simply Catholics.
Actually those guys hate the Orthodox, what is well proved in a recent religious violence of 1990's.


And many other unwilling peoples of the Russian Empire, yes.


Actually Russian Empire was created by Ukrainians (as Britain by Scots). Even Khrushchev, Brezhnev and Gorbachev (Soviet leaders) were Ukrainians.


Yes, the Ukrainians were certainly the driving force behind this move.


Russians were a minority in the Soviet Russia's government (at least in 1920's).
Ukraine was an independent Republic by the time. Ukraine created SU in 1922 and Ukraine destroyed SU in 1991.


You're a prick with an autistic view of national identity.


Thank you. But it would be the way funnier if you'd explain it in details ;)


The world will never dance to your tune.

Said a Galician supporter of Neo-Nazis :D (Galician nationalism is wholly neo-nazism).

You should be "proud" of it, "Fuhrer" carried out your wet dream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Ukra inian)):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/9/99/Галицкие_идут_в_бой.jpg

^ a poster of SS division "Galicia".

[Hochmeister]

Longbowman, you don't get a very important thing:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgM1aYoCcAAc1uv.png

^ Ukraine is as diverse as former Yugoslavia used to be. And it's absolutely wrong to generalize the whole country judging by just one very specific land (regions of historical Galicia - Галичина - is orange on the map).

All these regions have very unique mentality.

[Pure ja]

lol, Ukraine would require tens of billions a year, for decades, and it would all go down the drain without any return on investment for us. I, as a tax paying EU citizen oppose that idea, since its my money we are talking about here.

Ukraine is not Poland or Romania, its actually way bigger and worse, its a huge country which is very poor and very divided. It barely has any natural resources, well they do have some natural gas and iron but that's about it.


Not quite.
Ukraine has lots of sunshine, more than Germany.

Ukrainians can start mining Solarcoins:
http://solarcoin.org/

And others can invest into that.
No need to continue sucking on the RF gas tit.




It means that to be prosperous Ukraine would need to build a highly developed hightech economy. It would take generations to change the mindset of an average citizen and likely trillions in investment.

You say that they are suffering "under russian influence" = bullshit, they are suffering under their own misery, which they are themselves to blame for. They as a nation are responsible for today's situation, not Russia, not the EU but themselves. Besides, if you give them money they will simply steal it :)

Renewables are the fastest growing sector in the world. Lots of middle-tech jobs as well.

[Pure ja]

Agricultural resources ? Do you think Europe needs agricultural resources ? Is there a shortage of food in Europe ? Don't we have Spain and France which can feed the entire Europe and have untapped deserves of agricultural land ?


No, we don't. Their agriculture is mostly on drugs, err, on subsidies.
If the EU subsidies were dropped, many older western EU member states (even Spain) would find their agricultural market dwindling fast. In future, Spain gets no rain, and goes bust just like Greece. It's the changing climate.

[Acquisitor]

No, we don't. Their agriculture is mostly on drugs, err, on subsidies.
If the EU subsidies were dropped, many older western EU member states (even Spain) would find their agricultural market dwindling fast. In future, Spain gets no rain, and goes bust just like Greece. It's the changing climate.

it is on subsidies, but let them have the subsidies and keep the agriculture. there is no need to introduce another major player on the market.

A meteorite could fall on Europe in the future, and we all go bust ;)

[Stefan_Dusan]

I'm not sure how many Ukrainian posters we have, or their politics. However, I would here like to simply proclaim my support for the people of Ukraine during this trying time. I am of partial Ukrainian descent, myself; my paternal great-grandfather was from the Ivano-Frankivsk rayon in Western Ukraine, the Ukrainian people's heartland. He would have thought of himself as Austro-Hungarian, and served on the Eastern Front as an army officer fighting the Russians. When the Empire fell, he fled to Vienna, before Ukraine was absorbed into the USSR, where my grandfather was born. Many relatives of his from the area went on to die in the holodomor, the Purges, and then in World War Two.

Ukraine has been beholden to the prying claws of Russia long enough. It is time for the Ukrainians to choose their own destiny. They are deserving of transparent government. Regardless of what choice they make, the choice must be theirs. I pray they opt to integrate with their neighbours and brothers to the West; certainly, I pray the puppet government folds and lets the people decide, either way.

But above all I hope the violence abates.

Sincerely, a 1/8th Ukrainian from overseas.

If anyone else would also like to indicate their feelings of solidarity with the Ukrainians, please do so. No ultra-Rusophiles, please.

Right now Ukraine has two forces in herself pulling her in two different directions. If those forces can't reconcile, a civil war will result and being of 50 million + people many many Ukrainians will die. It's far better as outsider, to leave this alone, as your comments only widen the gap and make reconciliation harder. Like two angry people being taunted by crowd to fight. Well, in actuality being on apricity it has no effect, but still in spirit it only pushes more to civil war than from it.

[Longbowman]

Longbowman, you don't get a very important thing:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgM1aYoCcAAc1uv.png

^ Ukraine is as diverse as former Yugoslavia used to be. And it's absolutely wrong to generalize the whole country judging by just one very specific land (regions of historical Galicia - Галичина - is orange on the map).

All these regions have very unique mentality.

It really isn't. That's like showing me a map of the English counties and pretending they're all super different. They aren't. There's an east/west split and a couple of special cases along the borders.

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]LOL. Poltava is considered to have the best preserved form of Ukrainian identity in Ukraine and by Ukrainians.
Galicia almost never existed together with Ukraine in the same country. Probably only 1000 years ago during something like 100 years.

Look, thirdworlder, you're wrong. But even if you weren't, what matters is what the people want, today.


Nope. Rus'ky (руськи) was the way how Ukrainians called themeselves back in those days (from Rus'). They considered it to be a Union with their East brothers, since both Russians and Ukrainians are heirs of Rus'.

Once upon a time, maybe. Whatever joy the Ukrainians took in that union was wiped out by the Holodomor and the Purges and the Russian suppression of the Ukrainian language and culture. Russia has not behaved well to Ukraine at all. Why would Ukraine want to buddy up to them?


Do you support Scottish independence btw? There was more reason for Ukrs to join Moscovy than for Scots to join England.

I think it's a stupid idea, but if they vote for it, which they won't, I will respect their decision.


Nope, Galicia wholly is considered to be Malapolska, with all ethnic groups there.

No, you have no idea what you're talking about, as usual. And even if the Polish claimed it - which they don't - their opinion would be irrelevant and wrong.


Their dialect is different.

No it isn't.


They are not Orthodox. They are Eastern Catholics of Byzantine right, e.i. simply Catholics.
Actually those guys hate the Orthodox, what is well proved in a recent religious violence of 1990's.

Barely. Again, that's really not what's important.


Actually Russian Empire was created by Ukrainians (as Britain by Scots). Even Khrushchev, Brezhnev and Gorbachev (Soviet leaders) were Ukrainians.

Once again, you're talking out of your arse.

Russians, for the main part, built the USSR. And even the people you mention:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev Khruschchev was born near Ukraine to a Russian family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezhnev Brezhnev may have been born in Ukraine, but he described himself as Russian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorbachev#Early_and_personal_life Gorbachev was born in Russia, to a Russian family with some Ukrainian ancestry.


Russians were a minority in the Soviet Russia's government (at least in 1920's).
Ukraine was an independent Republic by the time. Ukraine created SU in 1922 and Ukraine destroyed SU in 1991.

"Independent" Soviet republic, yes yes. You really are a cool-aid nigga, ain't you?


Thank you. But it would be the way funnier if you'd explain it in details ;)

You think things should follow a rigid historical definition of your own devising, without realising the hypocrisy that entails, or the fact that people change and can decide their own destiny.


Said a Galician supporter of Neo-Nazis :D (Galician nationalism is wholly neo-nazism).

No it isn't.


You should be "proud" of it, "Fuhrer" carried out your wet dream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Ukra inian)):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/9/99/Галицкие_идут_в_бой.jpg


We all make mistakes. This is proof the Ukrainians hated the Russians so much they were willing to fight them, like the Baltic states. Should the Baltic states join Russia too?

[Longbowman]

what is it about then if its not about money ? do the Ukrainians have a source of holy water in their country which makes one young and immortal ? a source they don't want to share unless their country is accepted into the EU ?

Tell me WHY you think that Ukraine would quickly become a net contributor. I don't see a single reason to support this theory, but maybe you do, so let's discuss it.

I simply see potential. A young population, fertile land, industrial centres in need of a quick spit-shine.

But anyhow, it's about democracy, solidarity, togetherness, unity and peace.

[Pure ja]

it is on subsidies, but let them have the subsidies and keep the agriculture. there is no need to introduce another major player on the market.


The jet stream becomes slower and more curvy and stays longer in one configuration. That means that a common market needs longitudinal leverage and reserve production to ride out the SIMULTANEOUS droughts and floods. Ukraine would fit just fine. Even RF would fit just fine into the scheme, if not for the unpredictable whim of toll regulations.

[Windischer]

Galicia almost never existed together with Ukraine in the same country. Probably only 1000 years ago during something like 100 years.
polish crownlands, part of the p-l commonwealth
not that it matters, really.


They considered it to be a Union with their East brothers, since both Russians and Ukrainians are heirs of Rus'.

:rolleyes: fairytales. it was a purely pragmatic and political decision, rather a necessity after crushing defeat of cossacks at beresteczko.

[Acquisitor]

I simply see potential. A young population, fertile land, industrial centres in need of a quick spit-shine.

But anyhow, it's about democracy, solidarity, togetherness, unity and peace.

it bothers me that whenever I heard the word "solidarity" it always comes down to me paying someone. In our part of Europe, that word means to give, so naturally I strongly dislike that word. I'm sure that people living in other parts of Europe where that same word means "to receive" have different feelings towards the word "solidarity".

[Empecinado]

No, we don't. Their agriculture is mostly on drugs, err, on subsidies.
If the EU subsidies were dropped, many older western EU member states (even Spain) would find their agricultural market dwindling fast. In future, Spain gets no rain, and goes bust just like Greece. It's the changing climate.

Actually the EU subsidies and politics on agriculture are aimed at LIMITING agricultural production, and basically go to the pocket of the landowners like the duchess of Alba who receive 1.8 millions € in exchange for maintain the lands without producing. Without these subsidies and agricultural quotas, Spain would produce MUCH more agricultural products than produces nowadays. There are a lot of empty and abandoned lands because the EU politics.

And don't worry about the rain, we have 500 water reservoirs in all points of the country (we are the country of the world with the highest number of reservoirs per inhabitant), a complex system of water transfers between different rivers and many desalination plants.

[glass]

i wonder why you argue with this longbowman?
he is just an idiot...

btw maidan insurgents already violated arrangments they signed less than day ago :D

[Longbowman]

i wonder why you argue with this longbowman?
he is just an idiot...

btw maidan insurgents already violated arrangments they signed less than day ago :D

I don't expect Russians to agree.

[Graham]

imo "attack the ball and not the player" as we say in football. No point in calling anyone an idiot.

[Windischer]

i wonder why you argue with this longbowman?
he is just an idiot...
btw maidan insurgents already violated arrangments they signed less than day ago :D

extremist leader jaroš said he isnt going to respect any agreements between protesters of maidan. those who made the agreements usually respect them.

[glass]

I don't expect Russians to agree.
Your main problems are
1) you are trying to discuss matter you know nearly nothing about,
2) you are too retarded and (or) poorly educated to make reasonable conclusions based on fractured information you can find in media. Result is 100% of what you wrote in this section is nonsense and bs.
i should not have be russian to disargee with you, just very little brain capability is enough :picard1:

extremist leader jaroš said he isnt going to respect any agreements between protesters of maidan. those who made the agreements usually respect them.
Those who signed arrangement represent maidan, therefore they represent Right Sector radicals. But radicals violate arrangments, capture government and rada buildings and force those who signed arrangements to violate them. It is Yatsenyuk and Klitchko voted for striping Yanukovich of power and calling election on may, while Yanukovich was supposed to be president untill elections in december:picard1:
But like a said a few days ago, Klitchko and Yatsenyuk is powerless clowns and they are actually subjects of Right Sector leader

[Longbowman]

Your main problems are
1) you are trying to discuss matter you know nearly nothing about,
2) you are too retarded and (or) poorly educated to make reasonable conclusions based on fractured information you can find in media. Result is 100% of what you wrote in this section is nonsense and bs.
i should not have be russian to disargee with you, just very little brain capability is enough :picard1:

Those who signed arrangement represent maidan, therefore they represent Right Sector radicals. But radicals violate arrangments, capture government and rada buildings and force those who signed arrangements to violate them. It is Yatsenyuk and Klitchko voted for striping Yanukovich of power and call election in may, while Yanukovich was supposed to be president untill elections in december:picard1:
But like a said a few days ago, Klitchko and Yatsenyuk is powerless clowns and they are actually subjects of Right Sector leader

Yanukovych has lost. Clearly most Ukrainians agree with me.

Do not insult members.

[Hochmeister]

It really isn't. That's like showing me a map of the English counties and pretending they're all super different. They aren't. There's an east/west split and a couple of special cases along the borders.

Cry me a river :picard1:

Zakarpatye, a land westward Galicia, is populated with Rusins and considers itself to be a separated people, non-Ukrainians. And so on.
If Ukraine breaks up it would split into 3-4 countries at least. Even though "West"-"East" split is the most easy way of solution, but Ukraine is not that simple.

But whom do I tell it? I prefer to talk to intellectual and civilized people, so I doubt if I would like to waste my time with you anymore. :picard1:

I have a lot of good things to tell about Ukraine since I love this country, and if you wouldn't have started this topic with your strange hatred, I would confess my Ukro love instead :D

[Longbowman]

Hochmeister and Glasses should take a glance at today's news.

[Acquisitor]

Hochmeister and Glasses should take a glance at today's news.

doesn't mean much, yes Yanukovich gambled and lost, but it changes nothing.

[Kiyant]

And now Ukraine will now go down in a spiral of newfound corruption and ethnic violence between Russian speaking people and Ukrainians.........

[glass]

Yanukovych has lost. Clearly most Ukrainians agree with me.

haha
tell that to eastern ukrainians, they are not fond of Yanukovich, but he is clearly much less shittier than bandera neo nazi.
http://www.city.kharkov.ua/ru/news/-23196.html
that is what mayor of Kharkiv said (use google translator) and hundreds were yelling "Rossiya, Rossiya" after this words, many eastern and southern regions already clearly stated they do not recognize banderist radicals and would not obey decisions they made

[Longbowman]

doesn't mean much, yes Yanukovich gambled and lost, but it changes nothing.

Your perspective is different from theirs, though. They're arguing nationalistically and emotionally. You're arguing economically.

[Longbowman]

haha
tell that to eastern ukrainian, they are not fond of Yanukovich, but he is clearly much less shittier than bandera neo nazi.
http://www.city.kharkov.ua/ru/news/-23196.html
that is what mayor of Kharkiv said (use google translator) and hundreds were yelling "Rossiya, Rossiya" after this words, many eastern and southern regions already clearly stated they do not recognize banderist radicals and would not obey decisions they made

Eastern Ukraine is basically Russia. It should just become part of Russia and Yanukovych could be governor.

[Windischer]

Those who signed arrangement represent maidan, therefore they represent Right Sector radicals

no, radicals made it clear enough that they practically piss at all agreements.

[glass]

Eastern Ukraine is basically Russia. It should just become part of Russia and Yanukovych could be governor.
Eastern Ukraine is 50% of population and 70% of gdp
have you tried to achieve a whole new level of stupidity or something?

[Acquisitor]

Your perspective is different from theirs, though. They're arguing nationalistically and emotionally. You're arguing economically.

arguing emotionally is irrelevant and contra productive, especially when it comes to money. Money and emotions is a bad mixture, a bad mixture.

[Longbowman]

Eastern Ukraine is 50% of population and 70% of gdp
have you tried to achieve a whole new level of stupidity or something?

Money isn't everything. How does Eastern Ukraine being rich help Western Ukraine? Not at all, in this balkanised country.

[glass]

no, radicals made it clear enough that they practically piss at all agreements.
why euro ministers forced Yanukovich to sign them? So you agree we have a 'coup d'etat' sponsored by (naive?) west

[SKYNET]

judging by the last events Ukraine is waiting for revolution like Romania's 1989

[Windischer]

why euro ministers forced Yanukovich to sign them? So you agree we have a 'coup d'etat' sponsored by (naive?) west

its not sponsored by west.

[Hochmeister]

[QUOTE=Hochmeister;2431940]
Look, thirdworlder, you're wrong. But even if you weren't, what matters is what the people want, today.


Whom do I tell it again? To an ignorant boor? If you don't have arguments instead of primitive ad hominem insults just shut up for some dignity.


Once upon a time, maybe. Whatever joy the Ukrainians took in that union was wiped out by the Holodomor and the Purges and .


Ukraine had Holodomor without Russia and with Russia. If you would know history of Ukraine you would know that "holodomors" were very typical for these lands. The last "Holodomor" killed people in Ukraine, Russia and Kazakhstan. But some bastards use death of thousand people as their political manipulation, as if it was done against Ukrainians alone. When they are being expleined the detailes the continue talking this nonsense, because they are interested to shit against Russia only.
Using of dead people's tragedy is very mean.


the Russian suppression of the Ukrainian language and culture

Bullshit.
Read about korenizatsia and ukrainization.


No, you have no idea what you're talking about, as usual. And even if the Polish claimed it - which they don't - their opinion would be irrelevant and wrong.


You told Ivano-Frankovs was heart of Ukraine. And I showed you which heart it considered actually to be. But you have a short memory for discussion, I'm not surprised.


No it isn't.


No need to talk with you since you don't speak Ukrainian the level I do.


Barely. Again, that's really not what's important.

Galicia has another religion. It shows you know nothing about theology and culture of Ukraine.


Once again, you're talking out of your arse.


You are idiot. All colonies and new territories were colonised by Russians and Ukrainians together. St Petersburg was considered to be an Ukrainian city. Ukrainians were among Imperial elite with a serious position.
And know some idiot dare tell me I took it from ****. Fuck off kid and go learning some history of country you know nothing about.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Khrushchev Khruschchev was born near Ukraine to a Russian family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezhnev Brezhnev may have been born in Ukraine, but he described himself as Russian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorbachev#Early_and_personal_life Gorbachev was born in Russia, to a Russian family with some Ukrainian ancestry.


Believe it or not, I don't give a fuck. If you wouldn't be a fanatic I would explain more details.



"Independent" Soviet republic, yes yes. You really are a cool-aid nigga, ain't you?


Ukraine was independent. You don't know history.


We all make mistakes. This is proof the Ukrainians hated the Russians so much they were willing to fight them

This devision was formed in Galicia. [Austrian, Catholic, Polonized] Galicia always hated Russia, but only idiots confuse it with the the rest of Ukraine.

I don't see any reason to talk with you anymore, you are ignorant and rude fanatic. Cheers.

[glass]

its not sponsored by west.
if it was not West army would put insurgents down, but West called sanction, 'conqequences', etc, so Yanukovich signed everything euro ministers wanted in their presence. West stoped Yanukovich many times... so West played by neo nazi radicals side right?

[Hochmeister]

Hochmeister and Glasses should take a glance at today's news.

I knew about it yesterday. Yanukovich is a criminal and I always knew that.

[Hochmeister]

Your perspective is different from theirs, though. They're arguing nationalistically and emotionally. You're arguing economically.

Nationalistically? I personally think that Ukraine should have its independence and statehood. But it's you, who is talking nationalistically here, just read your first message on here - instead of supporting of Ukraine (which I would support) you are rising hatred against Russia and you behave aggressively when being told you are in a mistake.

[Windischer]

if it was not West army would put insurgents down, but West called sanction, 'conqequences', etc, so Yanukovich signed everything euro ministers wanted in their presence. West stoped Yanukovich many times... so West played by neo nazi radicals side right?

"putting down" you mean sniping random people including volunteer medics?
no, agreements were not made by radicals. radicals hate the west.
cmon janukovyč did it after spending a few months talking with putin. those "consequences" would likely mean freezing janukovyč family assets (which they stole) abroad.

[Hochmeister]

http://i016.radikal.ru/1402/6f/6c6f60babad6.jpg

^ Honestly dude, go and visit a doctor. :D

[glass]

"putting down" you mean sniping random people including volunteer medics?
no, agreements were not made by radicals. radicals hate the west.
cmon janukovyč did it after spending a few months talking with putin. those "consequences" would likely mean freezing janukovyč family assets (which they stole) abroad.
Agreements were made for radical's benefits. Agreements were made under heavy EU presure, basicaly EU forced Yanukovich sign them!
dude, i wrote 3 days ago in this section, that Yatsenyuk and Klitchko are powerless and radicals are not going to honor any agreements Klitchko signs. I was right? Dont you think euro ministers were too stupid to come to this conclusion too? So Nuland was right saying "Fuck EU"? Or they intentionaly paticipated in creation of this mess we can see now? Even Obama said, Yanukovich should remain in power.
I am no way Yanukovich supporter but he did everything he was asked to do to stop killings.

Ukraine is going to be next Yugoslavia, unless eastern and southern regions submit to neo nazis. This can lead to tens thousand deaths, but it could have been prevented with a few hundreds deaths...

[Windischer]

Agreements were made for radical's benefits. Agreements were made under heavy EU presure, basicaly EU forced Yanukovich sign them!
dude, i wrote 3 days ago in this section, that Yatsenyuk and Klitchko are powerless and radicals are not going to honor any agreements Klitchko signs. I was right? Dont you think euro ministers were too stupid to come to this conclusion too? So Nuland was right saying "Fuck EU"? Or they intentionaly paticipated in creation of this mess we can see now? Even Obama said, Yanukovich should remain in power.
I am no way Yanukovich supporter but he did everything he was asked to do to stop killings.

Ukraine is going to be next Yugoslavia, unless eastern and southern regions submit to neo nazis. This can lead to tens thousand deaths, but it could have been prevented with a few hundreds deaths...

eu didnt force him. if eu diplomacy had such capabilities, i wonder why nobody could see them until now?
violence was started by government and ramped up by extremists.

[Empecinado]

What a sick mind would do that?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhG57nZIcAAap9d.jpg

[Longbowman]

http://i016.radikal.ru/1402/6f/6c6f60babad6.jpg

^ Honestly dude, go and visit a doctor. :D

Whoops, meant to upvote. Corrected.

[Longbowman]

Nationalistically? I personally think that Ukraine should have its independence and statehood. But it's you, who is talking nationalistically here, just read your first message on here - instead of supporting of Ukraine (which I would support) you are rising hatred against Russia and you behave aggressively when being told you are in a mistake.

You're such a hypocrite.

I'm glad you support Ukrainian self determination, though.

[Pure ja]

Actually the EU subsidies and politics on agriculture are aimed at LIMITING agricultural production, and basically go to the pocket of the landowners like the duchess of Alba who receive 1.8 millions € in exchange for maintain the lands without producing. Without these subsidies and agricultural quotas, Spain would produce MUCH more agricultural products than produces nowadays. There are a lot of empty and abandoned lands because the EU politics.

And don't worry about the rain, we have 500 water reservoirs in all points of the country (we are the country of the world with the highest number of reservoirs per inhabitant), a complex system of water transfers between different rivers and many desalination plants.

US also has a lot of reservoirs, in CA for example. And in Texas and elsewhere. The reservoirs are getting empty. And heat waves will cause crop failures. The no-change in precipitation levels by the end of the century is projected to run from Scotland to Scania to northern Latvia and beyond. Anything to the south of that line will have to make do with hotter weather and less precipitation. Those to the north have to deal with hotter weather and more precipitation.

My main point was that the Baltics get much less agricultural subsidies than the rest of the EU (and Poland a bit less). That gives an artificial advantage to the older members. Once those subsidies and quotas are lifted the market will change singnificantly in favor of newer members. Ukraine certainly has a potential in that market, if it weren't capped by quotas.

[Sarmatian]

imo "attack the ball and not the player" as we say in football. No point in calling anyone an idiot.

Tell that to arrogant prick with mod powers and nearly zero knowledge on the subject who refer to quite well educated people "Look, thirdworlder,...".

[Empecinado]

US also has a lot of reservoirs, in CA for example. And in Texas and elsewhere. The reservoirs are getting empty. And heat waves will cause crop failures. The no-change in precipitation levels by the end of the century is projected to run from Scotland to Scania to northern Latvia and beyond. Anything to the south of that line will have to make do with hotter weather and less precipitation. Those to the north have to deal with hotter weather and more precipitation.

These predictions have no value at long term, as has been proved before, and often are even contradictory. Anyways, agriculture in Spain is adapted to cope with dry periods and scarce water supply, even if lasting for some years. 500 years ago a German traveller wrote how he was surprised how a so tiny river was able to irrigate a so productive and vast crop lands, and this without any modern technology...now we have water transfers between different rivers, a more efficient water canals, reservoirs and desalination plants.

Of course if a extreme climate change would take place, with an increase of 5 degrees and chronical drought, all would be fucked up...but the same could happen in the north if a glaciation would take place. And you have theories on increase of global temperatures, on decrease, some say it would be negligible, others say that would be dramatic, and other say that nothing would happen. As for the moment, our clime is perfect, our water reserves are pretty good, the country is gaining forest masse every year (which will avoid desertification) and have a shitload of abandoned crops that even being non cared since years still produce a lot, plus maaaany Ha of depopulated areas (some provinces of Spain have the lower number of inhabitans per km2). In some areas you can take kilos and kilos of fruits like oranges, almonds, grapes...for free, you just need to pick up from the abandoned crops, like if were raspberries in a forest.


My main point was that the Baltics get much less agricultural subsidies than the rest of the EU (and Poland a bit less). That gives an artificial advantage to the older members. Once those subsidies and quotas are lifted the market will change singnificantly in favor of newer members. Ukraine certainly has a potential in that market, if it weren't capped by quotas.

Ukraine has undoubtely the best conditions for agriculture in Europe and its agricultural products would flood the EU markets, though I doubt it would be for long, I'm sure PAC sooner or later would impose them quotas like they did with us, and as compensation to the lose of agriculture related jobs and to prevent them to be competitive will give funds, millions of euros that will go direct to the pockets of politicians and landowners, and the thousands of peasants who will lose their jobs will get the shitty crumbs to be chronical unemployeds.

[Sarmatian]

...Ivano-Frankivsk rayon in Western Ukraine, the Ukrainian people's heartland...

Thank you, made my day. One of the most retarded statements I ever read on TA.

It's also perfectly describes your anti-Russian attitude.

[Graham]

Tell that to arrogant prick with mod powers and nearly zero knowledge on the subject who refer to quite well educated people "Look, thirdworlder,...".

Who said that?. Mods should be a bit more pragmatic. :) I admit this is way out my sphere of knowledge also.

[Sarmatian]

Who said that?. Mods should be a bit more pragmatic. :) I admit this is way out my sphere of knowledge also.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?116117-Statements-of-Personal-Solidarity-with-the-People-of-Ukraine&p=2432178&viewfull=1#post2432178

[Longbowman]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?116117-Statements-of-Personal-Solidarity-with-the-People-of-Ukraine&p=2432178&viewfull=1#post2432178

I'm entitled to my opinion, you prick. It's not like any of you - except Aquisitor - have even approached politeness. I apologise for the 'thirdworlder' comment, but you all then have a lot of stuff to apologise for too.

You misinterpret what I write and dismiss me as uninformed - it's not like you don't have a dog in the fight. Instead of responding with anything concrete, you, Sarmatian, just write 'you're an idiot.' You don't get to act this outraged.

If I'm anti-Russian, you're a Putinophile. There's a problem in Ukraine, and if you attribute it entirely to protesters who want a fight or whatever, then that's a degree of myopia that boggles belief.

[Pure ja]

These predictions have no value at long term, as has been proved before, and often are even contradictory. Anyways, agriculture in Spain is adapted to cope with dry periods and scarce water supply, even if lasting for some years. 500 years ago a German traveller wrote how he was surprised how a so tiny river was able to irrigate a so productive and vast crop lands, and this without any modern technology...now we have water transfers between different rivers, a more efficient water canals, reservoirs and desalination plants.

Of course if a extreme climate change would take place, with an increase of 5 degrees and chronical drought, all would be fucked up...but the same could happen in the north if a glaciation would take place. And you have theories on increase of global temperatures, on decrease, some say it would be negligible, others say that would be dramatic, and other say that nothing would happen.


Decrease? Nothing would happen? There are certainly plenty of others who would claim that, but only a handful of active climate scientists - and all of them are climate deniers who have been caught on lying and spinning. But if you don't believe climate scientists or academies of sciences, you can always find out what insurance companies think about it.

Look at Palmer drought severity index developments by the end of the century:

http://www2.ucar.edu/atmosnews/news/2904/climate-change-drought-may-threaten-much-globe-within-decades

For Spain it is projected to be -10-20. It will become brutal already with -6 (so basically from 2060 onwards).
And even with water, one cannot escape from heatwaves. So, Spain might still get good crops one year, but have 2 or more consecutive bad years.

[Sarmatian]

You misinterpret what I write and dismiss me as uninformed - it's not like you don't have a dog in the fight.

Dismissal comes as a natural consequence of your first post. Your claim of Ivano-Frankovsk being a heartland of Ukraine is ridiculous to any person with a grain of knowledge on Ukrainian history.


Instead of responding with anything concrete, you, Sarmatian, just write 'you're an idiot.' You don't get to act this outraged.

Where did I write that? You making things up.


If I'm anti-Russian, you're a Putinophile.

You tend to express anti-Russian attitude on a regular basis. You're trying to dictate what Russians and others should do and what not. You may call it 'I'm entitled to my opinion' but to me it's seems like a simple rudeness. I don't see many Russians telling Brits what they should do.


There's a problem in Ukraine, and if you attribute it entirely to protesters who want a fight or whatever, then that's a degree of myopia that boggles belief.

I agree Ukraine have some big problems but the impertinence of Westerners in making bold conclusions is simply outrageous. Part of my fathers side of my family coming from Poltava region, I have three cousins living in Kiev today and one of them is high ranking military official in Ukrainian army so I'm know very well what Ukraine is, what kind of people living there, what's their attitudes and I have first hand information from trusted people directly involved in these events. Still it's hard for me to build up a full picture of who is who and what's going on there.

But for you it seems to be an easy thing. You watched a couple of news reports, read up someone's opinion on interwebs and already think you're 'entitled to an opinion'. Yes, sure :rolleyes:

[Longbowman]

Dismissal comes as a natural consequence of your first post. Your claim of Ivano-Frankovsk being a heartland of Ukraine is ridiculous to any person with a grain of knowledge on Ukrainian history.

A) Doesn't stop it being rude. B) As explained, I meant, it's one of the parts of Ukraine that is the most Ukrainian, ethnically, linguistically, sentimentally - not that it was the economic centre of Ukraine or whatever, I'm not stupid.


Where did I write that? You making things up.

All your posts have been offensive. Or am I imagining things?


Thank you, made my day. One of the most retarded statements I ever read on TA.


You tend to express anti-Russian attitude on a regular basis. You're trying to dictate what Russians and others should do and what not. You may call it 'I'm entitled to my opinion' but to me it's seems like a simple rudeness. I don't see many Russians telling Brits what they should do.


Actually, I'm imploring Russians to get their hands off another country. If I said it about America, and I do, you'd be cheering me. If Russia isn't meddling with Ukraine then you can disregard my statement.


I agree Ukraine have some big problems but the impertinence of Westerners in making bold conclusions is simply outrageous. Part of my fathers side of my family coming from Poltava region, I have three cousins living in Kiev today and one of them is high ranking military official in Ukrainian army so I'm know very well what Ukraine is, what kind of people living there, what's their attitudes and I have first hand information from trusted people directly involved in these events. Still it's hard for me to build up a full picture of who is who and what's going on there.

So we're both of Ukrainian descent with Ukrainian family, cool.


But for you it seems to be an easy thing. You watched a couple of news reports, read up someone's opinion on interwebs and already think you're 'entitled to an opinion'. Yes, sure :rolleyes:

Yes, because your cousin being in Ukraine makes you an insightful expert.

That might be too subtle for you: I'm being sarcastic. You think your perspective on the world, or more specifically Ukraine, is perfect, and you dismiss me seemingly because I'm Western; well, you're ignorant. And rude.

[Sarmatian]

That might be too subtle for you: I'm being sarcastic.

I'm big fan of British humor but only when it's in the right place in the right time. Given cultural differences it's easy for you to cross the line without even noticing it.


You think your perspective on the world, or more specifically Ukraine, is perfect,...

It's far from perfect, as I said in the previous post I'm still struggling with some things.


...and you dismiss me seemingly because I'm Western; well, you're ignorant. And rude.

I dismiss you strictly because of content of your posts. We've had some Westerners here at TA with very deep knowledge on Eastern European affairs and I had big respect for their opinions.

[Longbowman]

I'm big fan of British humor but only when it's in the right place in the right time. Given cultural differences it's easy for you to cross the line without even noticing it.



It's far from perfect, as I said in the previous post I'm still struggling with some things.



I dismiss you strictly because of content of your posts. We've had some Westerners here at TA with very deep knowledge on Eastern European affairs and I had big respect for their opinions.

You can dismiss me and disagree but if you come here, post three insulting posts, and criticise me personally, you will understand my response. If you ignored me, or simply explained your point of view, like Aquisitor, I would have no problem with that - I might try to engage you in debate, and who knows, you could change my mind - but all you were was negative.

I have a fairly keen insight on Eastern Europe due to family, ancestry, general historical knowledge, and a large amount of very close Eastern European friends, mainly Polish, but also Hungarian, Romanian, and of course Ukrainian. Indeed I have spent weeks crashing at their places in rural Podlasie and other Eastern European locales (though I will admit, never Ukraine) absorbing myself in their cultures. I will never be an Easterner and I don't want to be, but I think I have some insight into their lives. And it is clear my perspective is not so outlandish, as it is shared by a hell of a lot of Ukrainians. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't warrant a dismissal of their points, and certainly not disrespect.

[Empecinado]

Decrease? Nothing would happen? There are certainly plenty of others who would claim that, but only a handful of active climate scientists - and all of them are climate deniers who have been caught on lying and spinning. But if you don't believe climate scientists or academies of sciences, you can always find out what insurance companies think about it.

Look at Palmer drought severity index developments by the end of the century:

http://www2.ucar.edu/atmosnews/news/2904/climate-change-drought-may-threaten-much-globe-within-decades

For Spain it is projected to be -10-20. It will become brutal already with -6 (so basically from 2060 onwards).
And even with water, one cannot escape from heatwaves. So, Spain might still get good crops one year, but have 2 or more consecutive bad years.


These predictions are always changing. Now it's global warming, but in the 70-80s was trendy the glaciation:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_b5hcKABPlGI/R-h3GoF3OLI/AAAAAAAAIUQ/6dNeTfWFb8I/s400/03-06e.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o30PNIBahS0/T2KTNlu3RsI/AAAAAAAAAkY/cItxzMamChk/s1600/newsweek-global-cooling.jpg

Even the CIA did a report about it:

http://omniclimate.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/spectator-20091203pxiii-title.jpg

There is a book (http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/surfacestationsreport_spring09.pdf) which shows how 70% of the weather stations studied were in places with artificial heat sources, and therefore their data were disabled, in this gallery (http://www.surfacestations.org/odd_sites.htm) you can see more:

http://www.surfacestations.org/images/Roseburg_OR_USHCN.jpg

http://www.surfacestations.org/images/lovelock_mig480.jpg

The only true is that climates changes continuosly:

http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c0120a62f87f3970c-800wi

[Pure ja]

These predictions are always changing. Now it's global warming, but in the 70-80s was trendy the glaciation:


You are falling to the trap of deniers.
There was no glaciation threats in the 1970s, the majority of climate scientists in the 1970s were still behind global warming - just as in the 1960s and 1950s. The 1970s "trendy glaciation" was just some hyperbole by some POPULAR science magazines. The basic physics of greenhouse gases has been quite clear since Fourier. And current CO2 levels are already high enough to bring us out of the ice ages of the last 3 million years, at least for 1 next glaciation.

PS. Your referenced diagram is crap as well. You better look at Pages 2k:
http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/v6/n5/full/ngeo1797.html

Or look at the big picture - a composite of 3 studies of different timespans:
http://tamino.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/global-temperature-change-the-big-picture/

[Longbowman]

Wheels are in motion. The people have had their voices heard; may the revolution climax peacefully, with a strong, stable, independent, and accountable government that won't sell out its people's interests.

[Acquisitor]

Wheels are in motion. The people have had their voices heard; may the revolution climax peacefully, with a strong, stable, independent, and accountable government that won't sell out its people's interests.

and that government will appear out of nowhere right ? I mean they don't have any history of having such a government and then out of nowhere a bunch of very intelligent people will descent on the Earth from the skies and will rule happily ever after without any corruption, money theft or anything else.

It's not that even more evolved democracies such as ours also have very questionable ethics when it comes to money spending and corruption, but in Ukraine things will be different, and surely the next president beyond any doubt will we as transparent as a glass of bottled water.

the EU has promised to give €20b to Ukraine which is insane, surely some of this money will be pocketed by our transparent politicians using different schemes, and some of it will end up in the pockets of their Ukrainian brothers and sisters.

And you know what's funny ? is that people like you who support this idea have already been prepared by the media which is clearly biased against Putin ruling over that worthless country. You are ready to open your pocket and not object or question this endeavor and I find it hilarious. Wheels are in motion indeed.

[Longbowman]

and that government will appear out of nowhere right ? I mean they don't have any history of having such a government and then out of nowhere a bunch of very intelligent people will descent on the Earth from the skies and will rule happily ever after without any corruption, money theft or anything else.

It's not that even more evolved democracies such as ours also have very questionable ethics when it comes to money spending and corruption, but in Ukraine things will be different, and surely the next president beyond any doubt will we as transparent as a glass of bottled water.

the EU has promised to give €20b to Ukraine which is insane, surely some of this money will be pocketed by our transparent politicians using different schemes, and some of it will end up in the pockets of their Ukrainian brothers and sisters.

And you know what's funny ? is that people like you who support this idea have already been prepared by the media which is clearly biased against Putin ruling over that worthless country. You are ready to open your pocket and not object or question this endeavor and I find it hilarious. Wheels are in motion indeed.

I clearly implied the battle is not yet won.

You know what really is hilarious, though? People like you calling people like me brainwashed. Like Putin's such a great guy. Give me strength. You're reversed brainwashed - you've been trained to disregard so much you can't see the truth when it comes from the mouths of people for which you have disdain.

There are Russian members on this forum alone who allege to have 'voted' in the recent Russian elections in locales many tens or hundreds of miles from where they lived for a party they did not support. Putin is bad news. Got it? But even beyond that - and more pertinently - Ukraine's government was corrupt, and highly so, and you would have Ukraine keep itself in a situation you would deeply resent being thrust upon you - and why? Because your horrendous, cold pragmatism trumps human spirit? You're a cold man, Aquisitor - do not revel in that, do not take it as a compliment.

When something happens, think to yourself; would I like that happening to me? Would I enjoy being under Ukraine's past government? It's really an adaptation of love thy neighbour, that's all. Yes, Ukraine is now unstable, and instability is bad, but for the phoenix to rise anew, it must first burn to ashes.

[Acquisitor]

I clearly implied the battle is not yet won.

You know what really is hilarious, though? People like you calling people like me brainwashed. Like Putin's such a great guy. Give me strength. You're reversed brainwashed - you've been trained to disregard so much you can't see the truth when it comes from the mouths of people for which you have disdain.


1) I do not consider Putin to be a great guy at all. If you take a brief look at my history on this forum you will notice that I'm not a Putin's fan to say the least. In fact just yesterday Loki closed this topic (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?116310-Would-Putin-use-extreme-force-against-protests) which he found to be too anti Putin (his personal hero). Putin is not a great guy at all, the EU is better, our system is better but it's far from being perfect. Western style democracy needs a lot of polishing and tuning and you know that as well as I do.

2) "truth" coming out from people's mouths ? I don't accept anything that comes from people as truth, the only truth to me is everything that was formed before arrival of people to this planet. Examples of what I'm ready to accept is "human blood is red" or "clean water is wet". Everything that comes from people's months or actions is very doubtful and while some things can be true to some, they won't be to others. At least in many cases. The word truth is also one of my least favorite words in any human language.


But even beyond that - and more pertinently - Ukraine's government was corrupt, and highly so, and you would have Ukraine keep itself in a situation you would deeply resent being thrust upon you - and why? Because your horrendous, cold pragmatism trumps human spirit? You're a cold man, Aquisitor - do not revel in that, do not take it as a compliment.

it appears that the Ukrainian society produced several highly corrupted governments, including the latest one = yes. But I don't understand why you mention this here, we weren't talking about that. We were discussing that me, you and many others should carry the burden which the Ukrainian nation has kept creating for decades. And is likely about to create again. Have you even taken the liberty to educate yourself on a likely replacement for Yanukovitch ?

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/12/10/klitchko_wideweb__430x295.jpg


His name is Klitchko, he is a professional boxer. He has practiced his entire adult life and has grown quite a body as you can see. He earned millions while boxing, which I'm sure you know is intellectually highly challenging activity.

Recently he retired from professional sport and has entered politics, and he has been the main face of the Ukrainian opposition, so one has to assume logically that such a hero in the eyes of people's doesn't need a serious marketing campaign to be elected, he is automatically popular and undoubtedly suitable to rule over the country, just as Schwarzenegger was suitable to be California's governor for eight years right until the bankruptsy.

Let me stop being sarcastic here and become serious: there are many factors which instantly refute the possibility of helping Ukraine when my head processes them. The country is poor, population is politically immature, the country is divided, the country has no recent history of being functioning and finally, the only reason why the uprising has taken place is not that the society had suddenly became self aware but the fact that Ukraine is on the brink of bankruptcy, without it, Yanukovitch would still be in his palace. Look at Russia, same situation, but russian Ivan is getting fatter by the day so Vladimir feels pretty comfortable in his chair and he should, the sheep on his field have more and more grass to eat and will not oppose the shepherd, yet.

[Kiyant]

Wheels are in motion. The people have had their voices heard; may the revolution climax peacefully, with a strong, stable, independent, and accountable government that won't sell out its people's interests.

Ukraine is a lost cause and will probably end in a civil war or a war between Russia and western Ukraine

[Longbowman]

1) I do not consider Putin to be a great guy at all. If you take a brief look at my history on this forum you will notice that I'm not a Putin's fan to say the least. In fact just yesterday Loki closed this topic (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?116310-Would-Putin-use-extreme-force-against-protests) which he found to be too anti Putin (his personal hero). Putin is not a great guy at all, the EU is better, our system is better but it's far from being perfect. Western style democracy needs a lot of polishing and tuning and you know that as well as I do.

2) "truth" coming out from people's mouths ? I don't accept anything that comes from people as truth, the only truth to me is everything that was formed before arrival of people to this planet. Examples of what I'm ready to accept is "human blood is red" or "clean water is wet". Everything that comes from people's months or actions is very doubtful and while some things can be true to some, they won't be to others. At least in many cases. The word truth is also one of my least favorite words in any human language.



it appears that the Ukrainian society produced several highly corrupted governments, including the latest one = yes. But I don't understand why you mention this here, we weren't talking about that. We were discussing that me, you and many others should carry the burden which the Ukrainian nation has kept creating for decades. And is likely about to create again. Have you even taken the liberty to educate yourself on a likely replacement for Yanukovitch ?

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/12/10/klitchko_wideweb__430x295.jpg


His name is Klitchko, he is a professional boxer. He has practiced his entire adult life and has grown quite a body as you can see. He earned millions while boxing, which I'm sure you know is intellectually highly challenging activity.

Recently he retired from professional sport and has entered politics, and he has been the main face of the Ukrainian opposition, so one has to assume logically that such a hero in the eyes of people's doesn't need a serious marketing campaign to be elected, he is automatically popular and undoubtedly suitable to rule over the country, just as Schwarzenegger was suitable to be California's governor for eight years right until the bankruptsy.

Let me stop being sarcastic here and become serious: there are many factors which instantly refute the possibility of helping Ukraine when my head processes them. The country is poor, population is politically immature, the country is divided, the country has no recent history of being functioning and finally, the only reason why the uprising has taken place is not that the society had suddenly became self aware but the fact that Ukraine is on the brink of bankruptcy, without it, Yanukovitch would still be in his palace. Look at Russia, same situation, but russian Ivan is getting fatter by the day so Vladimir feels pretty comfortable in his chair and he should, the sheep on his field have more and more grass to eat and will not oppose the shepherd, yet.

I know Loki is weirdly pro-Putin, but that thread doesn't look closed to me.

I am aware of Klitschko. Yes, he was a boxer. He also has a PhD. Judge him on his politics, not his brawn.

[Acquisitor]

I know Loki is weirdly pro-Putin, but that thread doesn't look closed to me.

I am aware of Klitschko. Yes, he was a boxer. He also has a PhD. Judge him on his politics, not his brawn.

oh I could judge him on his politics but if I could, I would place a bet against him right now ;) On the political arena at least.

Loki has reluctantly reopened the thread, after me whining on his profile about it.

[glass]

Look at Russia, same situation, but russian Ivan is getting fatter by the day so Vladimir feels pretty comfortable in his chair and he should, the sheep on his field have more and more grass to eat and will not oppose the shepherd, yet.
btw isnt EU the same? While european Jon is fed he allows eurocrats waste his money on supporting young democracies across the globe, feeding new members, expanding bureaucracy and other activities with very questionable benefits?

[Longbowman]

btw isnt EU the same? While european Jon is fed he allows eurocrats waste his money on supporting young democracies across the globe, feeding new members, expanding bureaucracy and other activities with very questionable benefits?

Well, Europe is certainly free - free and fair elections, and suchlike, which cannot be said of the East. Higher standards of living, etc etc.

[glass]

Well, Europe is certainly free - free and fair elections
were Barroso or Rompuy elected?

[Acquisitor]

btw isnt EU the same? While european Jon is fed he allows eurocrats waste his money on supporting young democracies across the globe, feeding new members, expanding bureaucracy and other activities with very questionable benefits?

yes we have many financial leaks here. However the amounts stolen or misused can not be compared to the current Russian standards.


Well, Europe is certainly free - free and fair elections, and suchlike, which cannot be said of the East. Higher standards of living, etc etc.

one of my Belgian teachers once told me that he wanted to enter politics and that he was open to run for any party for as long as he would be elected. I believe that most if not all of our politicians are there for power/attention/money instead of doing their best implementing the political program which their party is promising to the voters.

[Longbowman]

were Barroso or Rompuy elected?

They're not even household names - they have no power. Also, it's like saying 'was the Queen elected?' When she starts passing laws, I'll perk up.

All actually powerful people are elected. Even Barroso and Rompuy were indirectly elected.

[Longbowman]

yes we have many financial leaks here. However the amounts stolen or misused can not be compared to the current Russian standards.



one of my Belgian teachers once told me that he wanted to enter politics and that he was open to run for any party for as long as he would be elected. I believe that most if not all of our politicians are there for power/attention/money instead of doing their best implementing the political program which their party is promising to the voters.

I agree, but that doesn't mean they're not unfairly elected. It just means they're insecure pricks.

[Acquisitor]

I agree, but that doesn't mean they're not unfairly elected. It just means they're insecure pricks.

but also means that they are not doing their best to serve the country, and this is what it's all about.

[Longbowman]

but also means that they are not doing their best to serve the country, and this is what it's all about.

In many cases, yeah, but that's different from some dude saying 'I'm in charge. Forever. Don't like it? Shut up or I'll torture or kill you.'

[Acquisitor]

In many cases, yeah, but that's different from some dude saying 'I'm in charge. Forever. Don't like it? Shut up or I'll torture or kill you.'

oh yes, it doesn't produce such an effect on an average European brain I understand :) Because it's different :)

[Longbowman]

oh yes, it doesn't produce such an effect on an average European brain I understand :) Because it's different :)

Sorry?

[Acquisitor]

Sorry?

Putin steals from Russians directly and lets his establishment steal as well = we whine and point fingers at him, and it is our right.

But our politicians are mostly power/money horny hypocrites steal from us as well, not nearly as much as its the case in Russia but they still do.

Our system is more advanced and is better than the Russian system which is very immature but we also need to look at ourselves. There is lots of work here :)

that was my point.

[Longbowman]

Putin steals from Russians directly and lets his establishment steal as well = we whine and point fingers at him, and it is our right.

But our politicians are mostly power/money horny hypocrites steal from us as well, not nearly as much as its the case in Russia but they still do.

Our system is more advanced and is better than the Russian system which is very immature but we also need to look at ourselves. There is lots of work here :)

that was my point.

Gotcha.