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View Full Version : Paper: R1b subclades have radiated recently in Europe, resulting in high STR-haplotype resemblance



Argang
02-25-2014, 10:17 PM
Dienekes has some stuff from the full paper:


As such it is not possible to predict the subhaplogroup within R-M269 to which an individual belongs based on his YSTR haplotype, in contrast to the situation with higher level haplogroups for which haplotypes do have predictive power(Athey, 2005; Schlecht et al., 2008).

The explosion of R-M269 descendants who (seemingly) went from zero to a solid majority in much of Western Europe over the last few thousand years is probably one of the most interesting events in recent European history. Not many would have entertained such a possibility until a few years ago, but truth is often stranger than fiction.



http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/02/recent-radiation-of-r-m269-males-in.html

supplementary information
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ahg.12050/abstract


Summary

Y-chromosomal short tandem repeats (Y-STRs) are often used in addition to Y-chromosomal single-nucleotide polymorphisms (Y-SNP) to detect subtle patterns in a population genetic structure. There are, however, indications for Y-STR haplotype resemblance across different subhaplogroups within haplogroup R1b1b2 (R-M269) which may lead to erosion in the observation of the population genetic pattern. Hence the question arises whether Y-STR haplotypes are still informative beyond high-resolution Y-SNP genotyping for population genetic studies. To address this question, we genotyped the Y chromosomes of more than 1000 males originating from the West-European regions of Flanders (Belgium), North-Brabant and Limburg (the Netherlands) at the highest resolution of the current Y-SNP tree together with 38 commonly used Y-STRs. We observed high resemblance of Y-STR haplotypes between males belonging to different subhaplogroups of haplogroup R-M269. Several subhaplogroups within R-M269 could not be distinguished from each other based on differences in Y-STR haplotype variation. The most likely hypothesis to explain this similarity of Y-STR haplotypes within the population of R-M269 members is a recent radiation where various subhaplogroups originated within a relatively short time period. We conclude that high-resolution Y-SNP typing rather than Y-STR typing might be more useful to study population genetic patterns in (Western) Europe.

Prisoner Of Ice
02-25-2014, 10:59 PM
You can't really draw any conclusion from STRs without looking at big data sets of ancient r1b, which we don't have. Because they move back and forth, not unidirectionally. So looking at how much they change over 5-10 generations doesn't say much of anything about how they change over 100 generations.

It's the same sort of (invalid) logic as molecular clock estimates, which change every single time that new data comes to light, showing they are predictive of nothing.

There's tons of subclades of r1b. Those won't form without thousands of years of separation. If they really just moved back and forth willy nilly then the spread of subclades would be totally random, but it's not.

The STRs show similarity inside each subclade as well, which also contradicts the idea the subclades don't mean anything.

They could well have split R1b in a dozen clades if they wanted. It's got way more subclades that any other clade, meaning it might not be as old as some but it's been covering a large area a long time. If the numbers they are throwing around were correct it would be impossible for r1b italic version to form in anatolia and then spread out from italy...but we know almost for sure that had to happen. It was spread by romans but still didn't achieve that much penetration over a 3000 year period and roman empire was massive historical event...in short this has all got to be crap.

Artek
02-27-2014, 10:20 AM
That's certain it must have expanded and exploded sometime after the neolithic period, the same is with R1a. That's obvious with an aDNA data we have and for the fact that we belong mostly(as a population) to the relatively new SNP's.

I fully understand your doubts, Melonhead - YSTRs can't be taken with 100% of confidence. However, the same goes for SNP's, bigger populations tend to have more SNPs but that doesn't necessarilly mean that they are older.
Everything should be supported by the aDNA data.