E-V13 etc

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F93IIqyfiAs

Regarding E-V13, it spread in Europe during the Neolithic and at first glance appears to have mainly sticked to the Danubian route by which the Neolithic spread.

It was found in the Avellaner cave in NE Spain:

"Y-chromosomal
analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately
7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated
with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b. These results
are highly consistent with those previously found in Neolithic individuals
from French Late Neolithic individuals, indicating a surprising
temporal genetic homogeneity in these groups. The high
frequency of G2a in Neolithic samples in western Europe could
suggest, furthermore, that the role of men during Neolithic dispersal
could be greater than currently estimated.

[...]

For the six male samples, two complete
and four partial Y-STRs haplotypes were obtained (Table 3).
They allowed classification of individuals into two different haplogroups:
G2a (individuals ave01, ave02, ave03, ave05, and ave06,
which seem to share the same haplotype) and E1b1b1 (individual
ave07). The four markers chosen to confirm belonging to these
haplogroups (Y-E1b1b1-M35.1, Y-E1b1b1a1b-V13, Y-G2-M287,
and Y-G2a-P15) were typed with a rate of 66%, which permitted
confirmation that four males were G2a and one was E1b1b1a1b
(Table 3).

[...]

For E1b1b1a1b, the link between this haplogroup and the
Neolithic expansion could also be made. This haplogroup, which
is the main European clade of haplogroup E, has been described
as having spread into western Europe from the southern Balkans
(10, 14, 23), but the exact period at which this expansion would
be held is still debated. It has been previously related to several
demographic events, such as the Neolithic dispersal in direction
of the eastern Adriatic (10) or along the Vardar-Morava-Danube
rivers into central Europe (24) or the migrations during the
Bronze age (13, 23, 25). The presence of this haplogroup in an
early Neolithic sample in Spain confirms, therefore, that this
marker may be related to the Mediterranean Neolithic expansion,
even if it does not permit quantification of the real importance
of the Neolithization contribution in the spread of this
haplogroup in western Europe. It confirms, furthermore, that the
Neolithic dispersal was not a uniform movement from the
Middle East but that it was more probably an arrhythmic phenomenon
punctuated by rapid expansion phases and periods of
breaks related to cultural changes like the one previously identified
by archeologists in the Balkans area (26–28)."

Source: Lacan et al 2011 (Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by men in the Neolithic dissemination)

This means that E-V13 also followed the Mediterranean route, associated with the Cardial Ware horizon, thus E-V13 might've been one of the original Neolithic lineages which spread from the Near East since it is found (along with G2a, this time even in LBK remains) on both the Danubian and Mediterranean trails of Neolithic dissemination.

So you're absolutely justified in asserting that this lineage isn't "Albanian", as there was no such thing back then.

Here's my question: Do you suffer from any particular illness, or mental illness for that matter?

[Mortimer]

Regarding E-V13, it spread in Europe during the Neolithic and at first glance appears to have mainly sticked to the Danubian route by which the Neolithic spread.

It was found in the Avellaner cave in NE Spain:

"Y-chromosomal
analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately
7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated
with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b. These results
are highly consistent with those previously found in Neolithic individuals
from French Late Neolithic individuals, indicating a surprising
temporal genetic homogeneity in these groups. The high
frequency of G2a in Neolithic samples in western Europe could
suggest, furthermore, that the role of men during Neolithic dispersal
could be greater than currently estimated.

[...]

For the six male samples, two complete
and four partial Y-STRs haplotypes were obtained (Table 3).
They allowed classification of individuals into two different haplogroups:
G2a (individuals ave01, ave02, ave03, ave05, and ave06,
which seem to share the same haplotype) and E1b1b1 (individual
ave07). The four markers chosen to confirm belonging to these
haplogroups (Y-E1b1b1-M35.1, Y-E1b1b1a1b-V13, Y-G2-M287,
and Y-G2a-P15) were typed with a rate of 66%, which permitted
confirmation that four males were G2a and one was E1b1b1a1b
(Table 3).

[...]

For E1b1b1a1b, the link between this haplogroup and the
Neolithic expansion could also be made. This haplogroup, which
is the main European clade of haplogroup E, has been described
as having spread into western Europe from the southern Balkans
(10, 14, 23), but the exact period at which this expansion would
be held is still debated. It has been previously related to several
demographic events, such as the Neolithic dispersal in direction
of the eastern Adriatic (10) or along the Vardar-Morava-Danube
rivers into central Europe (24) or the migrations during the
Bronze age (13, 23, 25). The presence of this haplogroup in an
early Neolithic sample in Spain confirms, therefore, that this
marker may be related to the Mediterranean Neolithic expansion,
even if it does not permit quantification of the real importance
of the Neolithization contribution in the spread of this
haplogroup in western Europe. It confirms, furthermore, that the
Neolithic dispersal was not a uniform movement from the
Middle East but that it was more probably an arrhythmic phenomenon
punctuated by rapid expansion phases and periods of
breaks related to cultural changes like the one previously identified
by archeologists in the Balkans area (26–28)."

Source: Lacan et al 2011 (Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by men in the Neolithic dissemination)

This means that E-V13 also followed the Mediterranean route, associated with the Cardial Ware horizon, thus E-V13 might've been one of the original Neolithic lineages which spread from the Near East since it is found (along with G2a, this time even in LBK remains) on both the Danubian and Mediterranean trails of Neolithic dissemination.

So you're absolutely justified in asserting that this lineage isn't "Albanian", as there was no such thing back then.

Here's my question: Do you suffer from any particular illness, or mental illness for that matter?

thanks for confirming me.
im diagnosed with paranoid shizophrenia

[Loki]

So you're absolutely justified in asserting that this lineage isn't "Albanian", as there was no such thing back then.


Fact remains it's indigenous Balkan, not Slavic or Gypsy.

[Mortimer]

Fact remains it's indigenous Balkan, not Slavic or Gypsy.

it is east african which spread through near east with neolithic farmers etc. if you want to know, my ancestry dashboard says my paternal line is african and displays the continent of africa, but really it is frequent in southern europe, that albanian is the source is wrong and ignorant (sorry bro)

[Loki]

The Serbs have 20% E probably because of Illyrian ancestry. They're not fully Slavic.

[Loki]

it is east african which spread through near east with neolithic farmers etc. if you want to know, my ancestry dashboard says my paternal line is african and displays the continent of africa, but really it is frequent in southern europe, that albanian is the source is wrong and ignorant (sorry bro)

East African is the parent. But the E-V13 subclade has nothing to do with Africa. It is confined to Europe.

Yeah I know, I was being cheeky to label it Albanian. Thracians had it the highest, current Kosovo. And ancient Greeks, and Albanians.

The ultimate origin is neolithic, which is why it is found in places like Spain. But the highest concentrations are found in Albanians and Greeks today, probably due to Greek expansion and genetic bottlenecks.

[Mortimer]

The Serbs have 20% E probably because of Illyrian ancestry. They're not fully Slavic.

the way you class people and label haplogroups is dumb, sorry. do you say all E descendt of albanians? the haplogroup predates albanians, and serbs have it from the same source as albanians etc. it isnt indigenous balkan either since it didnt originated in the balkan

[Mortimer]

East African is the parent. But the E-V13 subclade has nothing to do with Africa. It is confined to Europe.

Yeah I know, I was being cheeky to label it Albanian. Thracians had it the highest, current Kosovo. And ancient Greeks, and Albanians.

The ultimate origin is neolithic, which is why it is found in places like Spain. But the highest concentrations are found in Albanians and Greeks today, probably due to Greek expansion and genetic bottlenecks.

it originated in africa, but not many africans have it etc. but it orginated there. and spread via near east to europe etc that my great grandfather was albanian is quiete far fetched conclusion, he was a serb as far as i know, but otherwise 20% of serbs are "albanians" and 30% of greeks are albanians and 15% of italians etc.

[Loki]

it originated in africa, but not many africans have it etc. but it orginated there. and spread via near east to europe etc that my great grandfather was albanian is quiete far fetched conclusion, he was a serb as far as i know, but otherwise 20% of serbs are "albanians" and 30% of greeks are albanians and 15% of italians etc.

E-V13 didn't originate in Africa, it originated in the Near East or Europe. Its parents originated in Lower Egypt/Horn of Africa, though.

Yeah as I said, I was joking a bit with 'Albanian' :p

My E-V13 from Netherlands is very rare for that area. It's not Albanian, I have a theory which I explained in another thread.

[Mortimer]

E-V13 didn't originate in Africa, it originated in the Near East or Europe. Its parents originated in Lower Egypt/Horn of Africa, though.

Yeah as I said, I was joking a bit with 'Albanian' :p

My E-V13 from Netherlands is very rare for that area. It's not Albanian, I have a theory which I explained in another thread.

ok

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

E-V13's point of origin is still unclear, from what I can gather nobody's been able to pinpoint precisely where it came from, but my guess is either Anatolia or NE Africa.

It initially spread during the Neolithic, and then re-emerged in some sort of reflux associated with the coming of the Greeks (IMO Proto-Hellenes did not lack E-V13 and J2b positive men, and both of these haplogroups may track Greek expansions in the Mediterranean).

The devil lies in knowing the subclade, as far as Europe's of concern most of the subclades seem to have spread with the Neolithic.
Fingers crossed for new SNPs which will eventually prove to create significant clusters, which we can associate with events dating back to the Bronze Age and beyond.

[Loki]

E-V13's point of origin is still unclear, from what I can gather nobody's been able to pinpoint precisely where it came from, but my guess is either Anatolia or NE Africa.


Your guess is wrong. It is virtually non-existent everywhere in Africa.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

The Serbs have 20% E probably because of Illyrian ancestry. They're not fully Slavic.

No one is "fully" Slavic (including Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, etc).
Actually all South Slavic groups have significant Slavic ancestry, as demonstrated by high IBD sharing with other Slavic-speaking groups.

E predates the appearance of the Illyrians in the Balkans by several millennia, such a label is just as fuzzy as "Slavic" or "Thracian" at this point.
You'll have to wait for more SNPs and aDNA to say anything about E-V13's spread in the Balkans.

[Skerdilaid]

No one is "fully" Slavic (including Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, etc).
Actually all South Slavic groups have significant Slavic ancestry, as demonstrated by high IBD sharing with other Slavic-speaking groups.

E predates the appearance of the Illyrians in the Balkans by several millennia, such a label is just as fuzzy as "Slavic" or "Thracian" at this point.
You'll have to wait for more SNPs and aDNA to say anything about E-V13's spread in the Balkans.

You are correct, it's not Illyrian but Indigenous Balkan, so similar folk to Pelasgians did inhabit that part of the Balkans. Greko-Illyrian-Thracian invasion is what Indo-Europonized these folk.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Your guess is wrong. It is virtually non-existent everywhere in Africa.

It is rare, not "non-existent". In North Africa several samples have tested positive to E-V13, including Egyptian samples.

A North African origin would make sense phylogenetically since all of V13's sister clades (V12, V22 & V65) are to be found in NE Africa, so the odds are high for NE Africa as a potential source of V13 diversity.

However, it is equally possible that V13 appeared in Anatolia or the Levant.

Either way my guess is an educated one, nothing enables you to reject it so easily.

[Hevo]

Fact remains it's indigenous Balkan, not Slavic or Gypsy.

Fact remains that EV-13 was also carried by Neolithic farmers in another parts of Europe. I have even 1 Danish and 1 Swedish relative with this haplogroup.

Keep in mind that EV-13 has subclades aswell. EV-13 can't be classifed as just ''Indigenous balkan''. We don't even know the point of origin about EV-13.

[Loki]

It is rare, not "non-existent". In North Africa several samples have tested positive to E-V13, including Egyptian samples.


That can be attributable by European settlement, and Jewish settlement (who got theirs from Europeans).

[Loki]

Fact remains that EV-13 was also carried by Neolithic farmers in another parts of Europe. I have even 1 Danish and 1 Swedish relative with this haplogroup.

Keep in mind that EV-13 has subclades aswell. EV-13 can't be classifed as just ''Indigenous balkan''. We don't even know the point of origin about EV-13.

It is for all practical purposes indigenous Balkan. The point of origin is irrelevant.

[Loki]

Fact remains that EV-13 was also carried by Neolithic farmers in another parts of Europe. I have even 1 Danish and 1 Swedish relative with this haplogroup.


Yeah, but it was rare and sparse before the expansion of the Greeks. It is mostly found in significant amounts in old Greek colonies, like southern France and Italy. And Albanians and Thracians were related to Greeks.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

That can be attributable by European settlement, and Jewish settlement (who got theirs from Europeans).

Not really, no.
We need to know more about V13's phylogeny in order to make any pronouncement of the sort, it isn't because V13 is rare in Africa that it doesn't have ancient roots there (as I said, the fact that its sister clades are all to be found in NE Africa strengthens this possibility).


The point of origin is irrelevant.

It is, because it enables us to pinpoint V13's emergence more accurately.
Without the point of origin, we are left with a gap in M78's phylogeny as all of its other clades are quintessentially N African.

Moreover, the elevated E-V13 frequencies are likely due to several events, including bottlenecks.


Here's a question for IM: Which Y-DNA haplogroup did you expect when you took the test? Were you positively surprised or were you disappointed?

[Loki]

No one is "fully" Slavic (including Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, etc).
Actually all South Slavic groups have significant Slavic ancestry, as demonstrated by high IBD sharing with other Slavic-speaking groups.


Balkan Slavs don't have high IBD sharing with Poles and Russians. You're making stuff up.

[Loki]

Not really, no.


You are trolling now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

E-V13 is also found in scattered and small amounts in Libya (in the Jewish community) and Egypt, but this is considered most likely to be a result of migration from Europe or the Near East.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

You are trolling now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

E-V13 is also found in scattered and small amounts in Libya (in the Jewish community) and Egypt, but this is considered most likely to be a result of migration from Europe or the Near East.

It has also been found in the Maghreb on two private samples.
"Jewish" or "European" is not the kind of explanation I have in mind when addressing these samples.
Also, for the aforementioned phylogenetic reasons it makes sense to view Africa as a potential source of V13 diversity.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Balkan Slavs don't have high IBD sharing with Poles and Russians. You're making stuff up.

"The eastern populations with high rates of IBD are highly
coincident with the modern distribution of Slavic languages, so it is
natural to speculate that much of the higher rates were due to this
expansion. The inclusion of (non-Slavic speaking) Hungary and
Romania in the group of eastern populations sharing high IBD
could indicate the effect of other groups (e.g., the Huns) on
ancestry in these regions, or because some of the same group of
people who elsewhere are known as Slavs adopted different local
cultures in those regions. Greece and Albania are also part of this
putative signal of expansion, which could be because the Slavs
settled in part of these areas (with unknown demographic effect),
or because of subsequent population exchange."

http://pichoster.net/images/2014/02/26/ralphcoop2.png

Source: The Geography of Recent Genetic Ancestry across Europe (Ralph & Coop 2013)

^^ As you can see, Greeks also share a non-trivial amounts of IBD segments with Slavic speakers, which is a big topic in population genetics nowadays as it relates to the "What did the Ancient Greeks look like" question.

Also you can clearly see the effects of the Slavic expansion on the 555-1500 ya graphic, with loads of bubbles popping around in the Balkans.

So no, I am not making stuff up.

[Loki]

It has also been found in the Maghreb on two private samples.
"Jewish" or "European" is not the kind of explanation I have in mind when addressing these samples.
Also, for the aforementioned phylogenetic reasons it makes sense to view Africa as a potential source of V13 diversity.

I'm going to split this thread so we don't bother mrswan anymore.

[Loki]

It has also been found in the Maghreb on two private samples.
"Jewish" or "European" is not the kind of explanation I have in mind when addressing these samples.
Also, for the aforementioned phylogenetic reasons it makes sense to view Africa as a potential source of V13 diversity.

So .. because of two private samples now you consider Africa as a potential source for E-V13? Are you being serious?

[safinator]

According to the latest paper on the Y-DNA of Bulgarians it's hypothised that E-V13 could have come to life in Balkans so there're scholars which support also the idea of it being born in Europe.

[Loki]

Also you can clearly see the effects of the Slavic expansion on the 555-1500 ya graphic, with loads of bubbles popping around in the Balkans.

So no, I am not making stuff up.

There is no denying that the Slavs have had a genetic impact on the Balkans, I never claimed such a thing. Strawman.

[Loki]

By the way, I thought you said there was no such thing as Slavs?

[Hevo]

Yeah, but it was rare and sparse before the expansion of the Greeks. It is mostly found in significant amounts in old Greek colonies, like southern France and Italy. And Albanians and Thracians were related to Greeks.

That's why i find the subclades of EV-13 more interesting and of course some subclades are probably mainly found in the Balkans but there are some subclades in countries like in England found aswell.(E-L43) E-V13 can't be only attributed to the Ancient balkan populations in Europe.

[Loki]

That's why i find the subclades of EV-13 more interesting and of course some subclades are probably mainly found in the Balkans but there are some subclades in countries like in England found aswell.(E-L43) E-V13 can't be only attributed to the Ancient balkan populations in Europe.

There are not many subclades of E-V13, really. Most odd ones are only known from a few samples.

[Loki]

E-V13 can't be only attributed to the Ancient balkan populations in Europe.

It can. It's of Neolithic origin, and spread from the Balkan.

[Drawing-slim]

What the fuck is the point of this retarded thread? Can it be disputed that any other haplogroup has earlier presence in the Balkans than E-V13? I don't fucking think so.
So if it is the earliest in the Balkans its also the earliest in Europe, or equally old as the germanics that entered Europe from the other side of the continent.
And this does not include southern German or Austrians whom derive from this haplogroup.
Fucking losers.

[Loki]

What the fuck is the point of this retarded thread? Can it be disputed that any other haplogroup has earlier presence in the Balkans than E-V13? I don't fucking think so.
So if it is the earliest in the Balkans its also the earliest in Europe, or equally old as the germanics that entered Europe from the other side of the continent.
And this does not include southern German or Austrians whom derive from this haplogroup.
Fucking losers.

Agreed

[Kastrioti1443]

Agreed

Loki, man you still continue with this so called '' greek'' expansion.... Ev-13 is not found in high % in south italy and south france btw... and it peaks among albanian highlanders, a very isolated group which has nothing to do with the so called '' greek expansion'', they never had contacts with them. Even in Greece, Ev-13 peaks in areas such as Morea and Livadhja where Arvanites heavily settled.

[Loki]

Loki, man you still continue with this so called '' greek'' expansion.... Ev-13 is not found in high % in south italy and south france btw... and it peaks among albanian highlanders, a very isolated group which has nothing to do with the so called '' greek expansion'', they never had contacts with them. Even in Greece, Ev-13 peaks in areas such as Morea and Livadhja where Arvanites heavily settled.

Look, it is a fact that E-V13 is found in old Greek colonies like in Southern France and southern Italy.

Remember that Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians are related. But Greeks have later become influenced by other elements, like the Dorians. And later, Slavs.

[Kastrioti1443]

Look, it is a fact that E-V13 is found in old Greek colonies like in Southern France and southern Italy.

Remember that Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians are related. But Greeks have later become influenced by other elements, like the Dorians. And later, Slavs.

I can not find the article right now, but Dorians it is said to have created Sparta and the skull that were found there were very brachiocephalic...

[Hevo]

It can. It's of Neolithic origin, and spread from the Balkan.

No doubt it's of Neolithic origin but where did it originated and how it was spread in Europe is still uncertain.


There are not many subclades of E-V13, really. Most odd ones are only known from a few samples.

How do you know that? They are still examing E-V13 and we need more testing etc to be certain.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

So .. because of two private samples now you consider Africa as a potential source for E-V13? Are you being serious?

Not because of two samples: Because all of V13's sister clades have a quintessentially African distibution.
It only makes sense given that V65, V22 and V12 branched of from M78 as well.
So it strengthens the odds in favour of an African origin.

However, an Anatolian origin is equally possible, though difficult to picture since we don't have reliable information on V13's diversity.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

According to the latest paper on the Y-DNA of Bulgarians it's hypothised that E-V13 could have come to life in Balkans so there're scholars which support also the idea of it being born in Europe.

It's a possibility as well, though such an outcome would be very surprising as it would create gaps in our understanding of V13's spread.
How come all of M78's other subclades be found only in N Africa?

If anything, this might hint towards the existence of intermediary SNPs between V13 and M78, which aren't shared with other M78 clades.

As I said, our knowledge of V13 is too scarce, it's probably one of the least studied haplogroups out there.

[The King, I am]

E1b Caucasoids conquered the Negroes in Africa.

what

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

There is no denying that the Slavs have had a genetic impact on the Balkans, I never claimed such a thing. Strawman.

You explicitly stated that Balkan Slavs do not have high IBD sharing with Poles & Russians:
Obviously you were wrong.


By the way, I thought you said there was no such thing as Slavs?

You misunderstand: What I said was that there is no "fully" Slavic population, all have mixed to some extent.
Continuity is a wet dream in such a case.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

What the fuck is the point of this retarded thread? Can it be disputed that any other haplogroup has earlier presence in the Balkans than E-V13? I don't fucking think so.

You might have to change your mind: aDNA seems to indicate that I2 has been there much longer than either V13 or J2b.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Look, it is a fact that E-V13 is found in old Greek colonies like in Southern France and southern Italy.

Remember that Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians are related. But Greeks have later become influenced by other elements, like the Dorians. And later, Slavs.

I second the part about Greek colonization, we already have peer-reviewed papers discussing E-V13's links to the coming of the Greeks.

I might quote some later on.

[Drawing-slim]

You might have to change your mind: aDNA seems to indicate that I2 has been there much longer than either V13 or J2b.

Not the I2a2b "dinaric" (which myself am one) and is only 2500 years old. Which is also the most dominant I2 clade amongst balkan Slavs, Therefore majority of today Balkans.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Not the I2a2b "dinaric" (which myself am one) and is only 2500 years old. Which is also the most dominant I2 clade amongst balkan Slavs, Therefore majority of today Balkans.

I did not speak about I2-L147, but specifically about I2.
L147 is a pseudo-native subclade anyway (in that it re-expanded in reflux movements associated with the spread of Slavic speakers), its parent clade was probably always in the Balkans.

Either way, Mesolithic and HG samples always show an excess of I2 in Western Europe so it's pretty safe to assume this haplogroup predates E-V13's arrival and/or emergence by many millennia.

[Loki]

You might have to change your mind: aDNA seems to indicate that I2 has been there much longer than either V13 or J2b.

That's what I was saying. I2 is indigenous Balkan, but some people here think it is Slavic.

[Loki]

Not the I2a2b "dinaric" (which myself am one) and is only 2500 years old. Which is also the most dominant I2 clade amongst balkan Slavs, Therefore majority of today Balkans.

You are mistaken. It's all pro-Slavic propaganda.

[Loki]

You explicitly stated that Balkan Slavs do not have high IBD sharing with Poles & Russians:
Obviously you were wrong.


No. Obviously there is overlap, because Balkan Slavs have some Slavic ancestry.

[Kastrioti1443]

You are mistaken. It's all pro-Slavic propaganda.

It has been proven several times Loki, that the I2 subclade in Balkans called I2a2 originated from Ukraine, created 2,500-2,700 years ago where even today has it' biggest diversity.

[Loki]

Not because of two samples: Because all of V13's sister clades have a quintessentially African distibution.
It only makes sense given that V65, V22 and V12 branched of from M78 as well.
So it strengthens the odds in favour of an African origin.

However, an Anatolian origin is equally possible, though difficult to picture since we don't have reliable information on V13's diversity.

M78 is in Egypt, yes. But E-V13 developed later in Europe, from what we know. Or the Levant. But not North Africa.

[Loki]

It has been proven several times Loki, that the I2 subclade in Balkans called I2a2 originated from Ukraine, created 2,500-2,700 years ago where even today has it' biggest diversity.

I respectfully disagree. And it has not been 'proven'. Only by some Slavic supremacists.

[Kastrioti1443]

I respectfully disagree. And it has not been 'proven'. Only by some Slavic supremacists.

Haplogroup I among Croatians is divided in two major subdivisions[36] - I2a1 (33%), typical for the populations of eastern Adriatic and the Balkans, and I1 (9%), typical for north-western Europeans. Haplogroup I is believed to have weathered the last glacial maximum in the western Balkans, migrating north as the ice sheets retreated. In 2010 Ken Nordtvedt argued that I2a1b1 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion.[37] According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE.[38] In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2,800 years.[39] In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I2a1b1 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula.[40]

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

That's what I was saying. I2 is indigenous Balkan, but some people here think it is Slavic.

I think most of the L147.2 subtypes re-expanded with Slavic languages, but the clades found in Albania would be almost entirely Illyrian if you ask me (older than that actually).
Which is why you can find L147.2 in Poland and Ukraine in non-trivial amounts, some of it has to have trekked all the way from the Slavic Urheimat (Pripet Marshes?).

Either way, comparing Albanian subclades would be a good way of determining when and with whom this lineage re-expanded into the Balkans.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Haplogroup I among Croatians is divided in two major subdivisions[36] - I2a1 (33%), typical for the populations of eastern Adriatic and the Balkans, and I1 (9%), typical for north-western Europeans. Haplogroup I is believed to have weathered the last glacial maximum in the western Balkans, migrating north as the ice sheets retreated. In 2010 Ken Nordtvedt argued that I2a1b1 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion.[37] According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE.[38] In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2,800 years.[39] In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I2a1b1 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula.[40]

Ken Nordtvedt is spot on, as I said I2a-Din re-expanded with Slavic languages since the haplotypes in Slavic speakers are usually uniform and show diversity in Ukraine (from where the Proto-Slavs expanded).

However, there are other I2a-L147.2 subclades which have to be older in the Balkans, and my guess is that Albanians have most of them...

Either way, I2 was in the Balkans much prior to E-V13

[Loki]

Ken Nordtvedt is a known Slavic propagandist. I wouldn't take him too seriously.

[Tropico]

Bahaha. I like it when people make assumptions and then others drop peer reviewed data and articles and shut shit down. Lol
Keep going, I'm learning a lot.

[Loki]

Bahaha. I like it when people make assumptions and then others drop peer reviewed data and articles and shut shit down. Lol
Keep going, I'm learning a lot.

Another E-V13 here :D

[Tropico]

Another E-V13 here :D

Haha I have particular interest. Especially since mines for La Iberian peninsula. ;)

[Loki]

Haha I have particular interest. Especially since mines for La Iberian peninsula. ;)

It is rare in Iberia, you are lucky ;)

[Tropico]

It is rare in Iberia, you are lucky ;)

Haha I guess. Though Iberians would probably say since I'm a New World mongrel it's due to the Moors lol

[Loki]

Nordvedt is wrong. Polako is wrong. The Slavs did not carry I2, they carried R1a mostly.

[Tropico]

Nordvedt is wrong. Polako is wrong. The Slavs did not carry I2, they carried R1a mostly.

Any cited evidence?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It probably originates in eurasia, since its brother clade is most in south part of India.

There's also no proof it's a neolithic farming clade. Quite the opposite, really. While it shows up in some neolithic farming spots it's always a minority, and is spread very evenly around. This says it was either picked up by a secondary source or else it was small groups that had come to europe and eventually got assimilated. Just like N and C and T in europe. They also show up in neolithic sites and also in random spots at low levels, and also are not that common today. Most of it is probably not surviving from the neolithic but came in roman times or later, from the way it's spread.

When they sequenced a couple large sites they got huge amount of G as neolithic farming clade, but only a few I and one e1b. When you look at phenotype (dismissing coloring) associated with E it doesn't look like farmers but people who are built to be runners or long walkers.

[Tropico]

It probably originates in eurasia, since its brother clade is most in south part of India.

There's also no proof it's a neolithic farming clade. Quite the opposite, really. While it shows up in some neolithic farming spots it's always a minority, and is spread very evenly around. This says it was either picked up by a secondary source or else it was small groups that had come to europe and eventually got assimilated. Just like N and C and T in europe. They also show up in neolithic sites and also in random spots at low levels, and also are not that common today. Most of it is probably not surviving from the neolithic but came in roman times or later, from the way it's spread.

When they sequenced a couple large sites they got huge amount of G as neolithic farming clade, but only a few I and one e1b. When you look at phenotype (dismissing coloring) associated with E it doesn't look like farmers but people who are built to be runners or long walkers.

Bahaha ! Loki and Gigolo don't have the bodies of runners or long walkers .

[Smeagol]

E didn't originate in Africa probably.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Bahaha ! Loki and Gigolo don't have the bodies of runners or long walkers .

That's because they are massively mixed away from original E. Loki is 95%+ western european and gigolo is very mixed. Gheg highlanders and ethiopians are obviously a better example.

[Tropico]

That's because they are massively mixed away from original E. Loki is 95%+ western european and gigolo is very mixed. Gheg highlanders and ethiopians are obviously a better example.

Either way your halogroups represent a tiny part of your over all genetic code. Your autosomal DNA will make a much higher impact than Y DNA. Physiologically Y DNA activates testes formation and not much else. I hardly see how it can impact anything else in a significant way.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

There's also no proof it's a neolithic farming clade. Quite the opposite, really. While it shows up in some neolithic farming spots it's always a minority, and is spread very evenly around.

:picard1:

[Drawing-slim]

That's because they are massively mixed away from original E. Loki is 95%+ western european and gigolo is very mixed. Gheg highlanders and ethiopians are obviously a better example.

I don't get it?!
E-V13 shows the highest density amongst kosovar Albanians, also kosovar Albanians incase you never seen their thousands and thousands of group photos thread here, are the most Western European looking group of people starting from Central Europe alway down to greece. They look nothing like Slavs or Greeks but very much Western European natives in phenotype. So this thread and what this discussion is supposed to bring out is all confusing to me. But we have eyes to see and it's undisputed fact that kosovar albos are the most native European looking people out of at least half the continent.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I respectfully disagree. And it has not been 'proven'. Only by some Slavic supremacists.

If you think about it, during slavic expansions into the balkans, slavs would be primarily male. Maybe some with females. But almost no females would come themselves. So we expect the slavic expansion in the balkans to be reflected in male haplogroups.

R1a is not a good candidate since it's rare everywhere. But also for another reason, the original slavic settlements in the Balkans were Herzegovina and Montenegro. Those were the original slavic principalities that would expend to other balkan slav areas. And in those areas R1a is very minimal whereas it's highest in areas like Slavonia of Croatia or Vojvodina of Serbia. Those areas were conquered by slavs (Serbs, Croatians) from below. Even among Albanians, I2a2 seems to be confined in northern Albanian (Shkodra used to be part of Montenegro) and not anywhere south where slavs didn't settle.

So what other haplogroup better than I2a2 which coincidentally peaks in Herzegovina where the old slavic settlements were? It's very high in Montenegro as well.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I don't get it?!
E-V13 shows the highest density amongst kosovar Albanians, also kosovar Albanians incase you never seen their thousands and thousands of group photos thread here, are the most Western European looking group of people starting from Central Europe alway down to greece. They look nothing like Slavs or Greeks but very much Western European natives in phenotype. So this thread and what this discussion is supposed to bring out is all confusing to me. But we have eyes to see and it's undisputed fact that kosovar albos are the most native European looking people out of at least half the continent.

I'm a slav and my father here was classified as "definitely not Eastern European" by everyone until I revealed he was Serbian. This is a Balkan thing, people either look very Balkan or surprisingly western. I know many Serbs who can fit as French etc despite being slav. Also genetically I plot more western on global similarity than every balkanite on my list including many Kosovar Albanians.

[Kastrioti1443]

If you think about it, during slavic expansions into the balkans, slavs would be primarily male. Maybe some with females. But almost no females would come themselves. So we expect the slavic expansion in the balkans to be reflected in male haplogroups.

R1a is not a good candidate since it's rare everywhere. But also for another reason, the original slavic settlements in the Balkans were Herzegovina and Montenegro. Those were the original slavic principalities that would expend to other balkan slav areas. And in those areas R1a is very minimal whereas it's highest in areas like Slavonia of Croatia or Vojvodina of Serbia. Those areas were conquered by slavs (Serbs, Croatians) from below. Even among Albanians, I2a2 seems to be confined in northern Albanian (Shkodra used to be part of Montenegro) and not anywhere south where slavs didn't settle.

So what other haplogroup better than I2a2 which coincidentally peaks in Herzegovina where the old slavic settlements were? It's very high in Montenegro as well.

The highest is in Hercegovina, Slavonia ( Croatia), bosnia over all and northwestern Serbia. In Montenegro it is not high and decreases a lot going in the south where albanians live or ate least used to live in great nr.

[ChocolateFace]

I think I might be E-V13 along with Hamza and some many of the Kosovar members.

[Stefan_Dusan]

The highest is in Hercegovina, Slavonia ( Croatia), bosnia over all and northwestern Serbia. In Montenegro it is not high and decreases a lot going in the south where albanians live or ate least used to live in great nr.

Montenegro it's very high, about 40% with about 25% being EV-13. In Serbia it's actually less than Montenegro. I dunno about Slavonia tbh, R1A is highest there though.

[Tropico]

Im just gonna pretend my E-V13 is from a Roman or Greek soldier/colonist in Southern Spain who spread his seed in Iberia. Much more nostalgic.

[Kastrioti1443]

Montenegro it's very high, about 40% with about 25% being EV-13. In Serbia it's actually less than Montenegro. I dunno about Slavonia tbh, R1A is highest there though.

Montenegro overall has like 30% I2a2 with Ev-13 ranging 25-35% according to the regions. I2a2 ranges 25-40% with regions.

[Kastrioti1443]

Im just gonna pretend my E-V13 is from a Roman or Greek soldier/colonist in Southern Spain who spread his seed in Iberia. Much more nostalgic.

Illyrian soldier fighting under Roman flag is a better option.

[Tropico]

Illyrian soldier fighting under Roman flag is a better option.

Nah, much less nostalgic.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Montenegro overall has like 30% I2a2 with Ev-13 ranging 25-35% according to the regions. I2a2 ranges 25-40% with regions..

Every data sample produces different results slightly but here: https://sites.google.com/site/genealogydna2/country-national-haplogroup-chart-dna/montenegro

Montenegro:

I2a2: 33%
EV-13: 19%

Overal I (all subclades): 40%

[Kastrioti1443]

Every data sample produces different results slightly but here: https://sites.google.com/site/genealogydna2/country-national-haplogroup-chart-dna/montenegro

Montenegro:

I2a2: 33%
EV-13: 19%

Overal I (all subclades): 40%

Look it depends where the samples have been taken.... in order to give a very good image of what is the distribution of Y-dna in montenegro, at least 3,000 must be studied from all regions equally in nr.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Look it depends where the samples have been taken.... in order to give a very good image of what is the distribution of Y-dna in montenegro, at least 3,000 must be studied from all regions equally in nr.

I agree with this. I think Montenegro is closer to 25% EV-13. And maybe 35% I2a2. That study probably sampled from the university in Podgorica.

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

I said I would quote peer-reviewed studies putting forth a link between the emergence of the Greeks and the spread of V13, I kept my word:

"In turn, two distinctive haplogroups, J2a1h-M319
and J2a1b1-M92, have demographic properties consistent with Bronze Age expansions in Crete, arguably from NW/W
Anatolia and Syro-Palestine, while a later mainland (Mycenaean) contribution to Crete is indicated by relative frequencies
of V13.

[...]

Haplogroup
E3b1a2-V13 has an expansion time in Crete dating to the
end of late Bronze Age (1100 BCE) arguably reflecting the
presence of a mainland Mycenaean population in Crete.

[...]

The calculated expansion time of haplogroup E3b1a2-
V13 in mainland Greece is 8,600 y BP at Nea Nikomedeia
and 9,200 y BP at Lerna/Franchthi Cave and is consistent
with the late Mesolithic/initial Neolithic horizon.

[...]

The
expansion of E3b1a2-V13 in Crete provides a consistent
internal control our choice of mutation rate. Namely the
Late Bronze Age expansion date of 1100 BC coincides
with the alleged arrival of mainland Mycenaean Greeks that
is well documented in the archaeological and epigraphic
record.

[...]

One can point to another post-colonization population
influx into Crete (1100 BC) this time from Greece, as
represented by V13 which occurs at ca. 35% frequency
in both Thessaly and the Peloponnese while its frequency
on Crete is only 7%, indicating a mainland contribution
to the Cretan Y chromosome inventory, albeit no more
than 20%. Once again, the genetic data resonates with a
major debate in Aegean prehistory; that of the processes
involved in the ‘Mycenaeanisation’ of Cretan society towards
the end of the Bronze Age. Sometime around the
mid 15th century BC, Crete witnessed another series of
major sociocultural changes, as evidenced by the adoption
of the mainland proto-Greek Linear B script/language,
burial practices, iconography and material culture. These
cultural transformations have been interpreted by many as
indicative of Crete’s invasion by its mainland Mycenaean
neighbors (Popham 1994;Warren 1973: p45). The Y chromosome
data can be taken as further evidence that some
of these later Bronze Age changes in Crete were indeed
underwritten by an incursion of mainland populace."

Source: Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic (King et al 2008)

"Given the origin of viniculture in Provence is ascribed to Massalia, these results suggest that E-V13
may trace the demographic and socio-cultural impact of Greek colonization in Mediterranean Europe, a
contribution that appears to be considerably larger than that of a Neolithic pioneer colonization.

[...]

On the other hand, E-V13
appears to have originated in Greece or the southern
Balkans [13,14] and then spread to Sicily at high frequencies
with the Greek colonization of the island.
E-V13 is also found at low frequencies on the Anatolian
mainland [13] and thus may be useful in teasing apart
the relative contributions of Greek colonization (E-V13)
from Early Neolithic colonization (J2) to Western Europe.

[...]

The ages for Corsica and Provence
exceed the founding dates from the archeological
record of the Greek colonies in the Mediterranean. This
discordance is most likely a consequence of multiple
E-V13 founders inflating the variance.

[...]

Thus the presence
of E-V13 in the western Mediterranean is most likely driven
by Greek colonists.

[...]

Haplogroup E-V13 may trace the movement of the
Ionian Greeks to key areas of France and Corsica that
introduced viniculture to Western Europe [22]. Further
studies will help elucidate the relative contribution of
the Greek and Neolithic migrations in other areas of the
western Mediterranean."

Source: The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean (King et al 2011)


What seems clear throughout these studies is that E-V13's point of origin is difficult to pinpoint, though there is little doubt that it mainly entered Europe with the Neolithic.

[Tropico]

Yay Now I can say I have a direct male Greek ancestor . ;P

[Hanibalas Lekteris]

Yay Now I can say I have a direct male Greek ancestor . ;P

Well it's an educated guess, but we'll need more SNPs to confirm that... And research about E-V13's phylogeny seems to be lagging, to say the least.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I don't get it?!
E-V13 shows the highest density amongst kosovar Albanians, also kosovar Albanians incase you never seen their thousands and thousands of group photos thread here, are the most Western European looking group of people starting from Central Europe alway down to greece. They look nothing like Slavs or Greeks but very much Western European natives in phenotype. So this thread and what this discussion is supposed to bring out is all confusing to me. But we have eyes to see and it's undisputed fact that kosovar albos are the most native European looking people out of at least half the continent.

Wasn't meant towards albanians really. I don't think they started off as ethiopians or east europeans (east europeans like we think only got mixed like that about 1000 years ago). But he is mainly away from any other e1b so it's pretty dumb to use him as an examplar of original e1b type.

Comes down to, ask a silly question, get a silly answer. But Tropico is butthurt toward anything I say.

[Tropico]

Wasn't meant towards albanians really. I don't think they started off as ethiopians or east europeans (east europeans like we think only got mixed like that about 1000 years ago). But he is mainly away from any other e1b so it's pretty dumb to use him as an examplar of original e1b type.

Comes down to, ask a silly question, get a silly answer. But Tropico is butthurt toward anything I say.

Butthurt? Lol dude you don't know actual genetics well enough and it shows when you speak. How in the hell does Y DNA affect ones ability to walk or run?

[safinator]

Even among Albanians, I2a2 seems to be confined in northern Albanian (Shkodra used to be part of Montenegro) and not anywhere south where slavs didn't settle.



Absolutely not, I2a1b(I2a2 in old terminology) is much more common in the south than in the north of the country as every study confirmates, in fact I2a1b among Northern Albanians reaches one of the smallest percentages in all Balkan.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Absolutely not, I2a1b(I2a2 in old terminology) is much more common in the south than in the north of the country as every study confirmates, in fact I2a1b among Northern Albanians reaches one of the smallest percentages in all Balkan.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Notice the shading in northwestern Albania. Though your also right, there is also a darker shading in central south.

Anyways on my 23andMe I have several Albanians who have it and coincidentally they're all from the north or Montenegro.

[safinator]

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Notice the shading in northwestern Albania. Though your also right, there is also a darker shading in central south.

Anyways on my 23andMe I have several Albanians who have it and coincidentally they're all from the north or Montenegro.

23andMe isn't a proof , i have many I1, above 15% yet its not realistic, this map on Eupedia is grossly approximated nor there is any source, every study on the Albanians have put the I2a1 lower than 10%, in Kosovo there's more I1 than I2a1b.

[Stefan_Dusan]

23andMe isn't a proof , i have many I1, above 15% yet its not realistic, this map on Eupedia is grossly approximated nor there is any source, every study on the Albanians have put the I2a1 lower than 10%, in Kosovo there's more I1 than I2a1b.

Is there a study in people from Shkodra? I bet in Shkodra it would be 15-20% range. Kosovo is not northern Albania let's leave it out of discussion.

[Kastrioti1443]

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Notice the shading in northwestern Albania. Though your also right, there is also a darker shading in central south.

Anyways on my 23andMe I have several Albanians who have it and coincidentally they're all from the north or Montenegro.

It is too much of approximation.... As i Said before in order to make correct studies we need to take 10,000 people( for every region i will mention) from northern albania, Kosovo, albanians of montenegro, montenegro itself , in equal nr for different regions.

[Kastrioti1443]

Is there a study in people from Shkodra? I bet in Shkodra it would be 15-20% range. Kosovo is not northern Albania let's leave it out of discussion.

Kosovar albanians are northern albanians, the same genetic stock of albanian highlanders. Shkodra is a very mixed city, there are even assimilated tunizian ottoman families there, it can not be taken into account.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Kosovar albanians are northern albanians, the same genetic stock of albanian highlanders. Shkodra is a very mixed city, there are even assimilated tunizian ottoman families there, it can not be taken into account.

Kosovo Albanians come from (predominately) only a couple regions of Northern Albania. Primarily those of Dukagjin highlands. So while they are of Northern Albanian stock they don't represent the entire diversity of northern Albania.

[Kastrioti1443]

Kosovo Albanians come from (predominately) only a couple regions of Northern Albania. Primarily those of Dukagjin highlands. So while they are of Northern Albanian stock they don't represent the entire diversity of northern Albania.

First of all southern montenegro is northern albania too. Half of kosovar albanians are part of gjakova highlands and Drenica. There are more with Malsia e Madhe heritage than Dukagjin. And there is no diversity among albanian highlanders, they are very similar.

The place when you think there is more I2a2 people look either very Balkan, either very central or western european, not slavic.

There are villages there when half of the people look Like Bekim Balaj, Nikoll Nikprelaj, Malesor Prenkocaj, Luke Juncaj, Klodian Semina etc, far from anything slavic.

[Loki]

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Notice the shading in northwestern Albania. Though your also right, there is also a darker shading in central south.

Anyways on my 23andMe I have several Albanians who have it and coincidentally they're all from the north or Montenegro.

Thank you :thumbs up

It's what I have always known.

[safinator]

Is there a study in people from Shkodra? I bet in Shkodra it would be 15-20% range. Kosovo is not northern Albania let's leave it out of discussion.

Shkodra is among the cities which Gheg samples are taken but i don't know about anyone in particular, Kosovars stem from the same source of Northern Albanians and i share with 3 Albanians from Montenegro(2 E-V13 and J2b2). And 3 Shkodrans (I2a1b, R1b, R1a respectively).

In fact the I2a1b i share with are respectively:

3 Tosks, Kurt, and an Albanian from Kosovo, the majority of northerners are overhwhelmingly E-V13.

[Black Wolf]

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Notice the shading in northwestern Albania. Though your also right, there is also a darker shading in central south.

Anyways on my 23andMe I have several Albanians who have it and coincidentally they're all from the north or Montenegro.

Take a look at this study. As far as I know this is the only one that has really been done on Albanian Y-DNA in any detail. The Tosks have much more Y-DNA haplogroup I than the Ghegs do. That I is most likely pretty much all I2 I would say. They unfortunately did not test any further downstream than the M170 SNP though. Tosks had 25.62 I and Ghegs had only 9.09% I.

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html

[safinator]

Take a look at this study. As far as I know this is the only one that has really been done on Albanian Y-DNA in any detail. The Tosks have much more Y-DNA haplogroup I than the Ghegs do. That I is most likely pretty much all I2 I would say. They unfortunately did not test any further downstream than the M170 SNP though. Tosks had 25.62 I and Ghegs had only 9.09% I.

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html

This is another sample of I subclades among Albanians, i think sample is from Tirana.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/table/TB1/

I overall 23.6 %
2.8 % I-M253
17 % I1b*P37
3.8 % I-M223

[Black Wolf]

This is another sample of I subclades among Albanians, i think sample is from Tirana.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/table/TB1/

I overall 23.6 %
2.8 % I-M253
17 % I1b*P37
3.8 % I-M223

Tirana must obviously be mixed since it is the capital but I wonder if there are more Tosks than Ghegs present there? It would make sense if there is I think.

[justme]

Nordvedt is wrong. Polako is wrong. The Slavs did not carry I2, they carried R1a mostly.


I don't get it?!
E-V13 shows the highest density amongst kosovar Albanians, also kosovar Albanians incase you never seen their thousands and thousands of group photos thread here, are the most Western European looking group of people starting from Central Europe alway down to greece. They look nothing like Slavs or Greeks but very much Western European natives in phenotype. So this thread and what this discussion is supposed to bring out is all confusing to me. But we have eyes to see and it's undisputed fact that kosovar albos are the most native European looking people out of at least half the continent.
There isn't really a data on Kosovos haplogroup... According to IGENEA so why even bother posting kosovo results here when we don't really know what haplogroup they carry?


Kosovo Albanians come from (predominately) only a couple regions of Northern Albania. Primarily those of Dukagjin highlands. So while they are of Northern Albanian stock they don't represent the entire diversity of northern Albania.

This isn't any data on Kosovo according to IGENEA, funny how maps show kosovo as E-v13 whilst other Kosovo Albanians who have been tested claim on the net they are I according to their results...

[Stefan_Dusan]

This isn't any data on Kosovo according to IGENEA, funny how maps show kosovo as E-v13 whilst other Kosovo Albanians who have been tested claim on the net they are I according to their results...

I have several Kosovo Albanians who are EV-13, several who are women (no male haplogroups), one who is dinaric clade (I2a1b), one who is I1, and another some subclade of J2. But EV-13 predominates.

[Loki]

There isn't really a data on Kosovos haplogroup... According to IGENEA so why even bother posting kosovo results here when we don't really know what haplogroup they carry?



This isn't any data on Kosovo according to IGENEA, funny how maps show kosovo as E-v13 whilst other Kosovo Albanians who have been tested claim on the net they are I according to their results...

Interesting.

[Loki]

several who are women (no male haplogroups), one who is dinaric clade (I2a1b), one who is I1, and another some subclade of J2. But EV-13 predominates.

How can women have their Y-DNA?

[Stefan_Dusan]

How can women have their Y-DNA?

If you read carefully I said several are women so they don't have a male haplogroup.

[justme]

I have several Kosovo Albanians who are EV-13, several who are women (no male haplogroups), one who is dinaric clade (I2a1b), one who is I1, and another some subclade of J2. But EV-13 predominates.

Yes but there is no data on kosovo as a country... No one is denying E-v13 in kosovo but we don't have any data on Kosovo to which haplogroup is more dominant... But yes E-v13 is in Kosovo, but really we don't really know how much...