Nato invokes treaty on Ukraine

[Hercus Monte]

Lithuania's FM Linkevicius has said Russia's decision to deploy forces in Ukraine means "Nato, art. 4 becomes valid," referring to article 4 of the Nato treaty. The article says Nato members must meet for consultations if "the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the parties is threatened."

http://euobserver.com/tickers/123321

[RussiaPrussia]

Lithuania's FM Linkevicius has said Russia's decision to deploy forces in Ukraine means "Nato, art. 4 becomes valid," referring to article 4 of the Nato treaty. The article says Nato members must meet for consultations if "the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the parties is threatened."

http://euobserver.com/tickers/123321

Ukraine is not nato, and its not Lithuanias tax money that is paying for it so no wonder

[Unome]

EU/Nato should protect Ukraine.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

EU/Nato should protect Ukraine.

EU can't protect crap, and US won't.

[Hercus Monte]

Ukraine is not nato, and its not Lithuanias tax money that is paying for it so no wonder
learn to read, the article says parties involved, ukraine in involved in the nato-ukraine treaty

[blogen]

The alliance does not provide protection from the stupidity.

[RussiaPrussia]

you baltics have the biggest mouth here. How much you pay for your nato security? 10 thousand?

[Hercus Monte]

EU can't protect crap, and US won't.
The EU undoubtedly can't, EU members could.
http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2014_09/206761/140224-us-defense-chart-215p_d40ecad0e93608f7224bcfd4d5df8a2f.nbcnews-ux-720-520.jpg


you baltics have the biggest mouth here. How much you pay for your nato security? 10 thousand?

about 2%, like nato asks us.

[Drawing-slim]

It is too late for NATO and Europe to help Ukraine. Russia has 150.000 troops in that south corner of Ukraine. That's more troops than US had at its highest point when invading Iraq.
This is a mess.

[Hercus Monte]

It is too late for NATO and Europe to help Ukraine. Russia has 150.000 troops in that south corner of Ukraine. That's more troops than US had at its highest point at invading Iraq.
This is a mess.
link?

[Äijä]

EU can't protect crap, and US won't.

But luckily US is willing to arm people that fight for themselves.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The EU undoubtedly can't, EU members could.
http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2014_09/206761/140224-us-defense-chart-215p_d40ecad0e93608f7224bcfd4d5df8a2f.nbcnews-ux-720-520.jpg



about 2%, like nato asks us.

A lot of budget goes to nukes and to high tech stuff that may not help any.

[Hercus Monte]

A lot of budget goes to nukes and to high tech stuff that may not help any.
look at the UK, France, Germany budget alone. it would be enough to smoke russia out.

[Empecinado]

Fuck NATO, terrorist and army of occupation organization :thumb001:

[AmericanGuy]

When you figure wages, and retirement pensions; the USA costs are proportional. NOT outrageous.

Adjust for cost and USA does not pay so much.

An American jet may cost 10 times as much.

[Äijä]

A lot of budget goes to nukes and to high tech stuff that may not help any.

You have stockpiles of used equipment that are to us worth gold.

[Drawing-slim]

link?

On the Russian side of the border with Ukraine I meant. ..reported by CNN every minute now.

[RandoBloom]

Russia needs to be stoped. Imidiately. A low intensity war would be in best interest of Europe to protect it from Eastern hordes.
Smoking out their puppet of Serbia wouldnt hurt at all.

[SKYNET]

no clue what's going to happen next, no idea who will win in the war, Russia or NATO. As I expect it should be Georgia 2008 or Serbia 1999.

[Drawing-slim]

Emergency UN security council and Obama speech still no one dare threatens that midget Putin openly. This sucks for the world to be intimidated by this criminal Mongol.

[Empecinado]

Russia needs to be stoped. Imidiately. A low intensity war would be in best interest of Europe to protect it from Eastern hordes.
Smoking out their puppet of Serbia wouldnt hurt at all.

As my grandpa said, all those who cheer for a war are sissies who have never participied in one.

[glass]

NATO pretty much pioneered annexing territories from sovereign states
What can NATO say?

[Drawing-slim]

NATO pretty much pioneered annexing territories from sovereign states
What can NATO say?

NATO should immediately make Ukraine a part of itself and Georgia as well. This way Russia can't touch neither.

[Hercus Monte]

NATO pretty much pioneered annexing territories from sovereign states
What can NATO say?
totally

[Hercus Monte]

On the Russian side of the border with Ukraine I meant. ..reported by CNN every minute now.
those numbers are not confirmed, by nether side.

[Siberyak]

NATO should immediately make Ukraine a part of itself and Georgia as well. This way Russia can't touch neither.

You should now that NATO never cared about Albanians or Kosovo in reality. But they needed to use you guys as stepping stone to get into the balkans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel

[SKYNET]

anyway I wouldn't like to see a lot of murdered innocent civilians on both sides in that unfair conflict in the name of money

[ALSh]

Propably US will convince Russia to withdraw its troops from crimea ( as Russia plan to sent )

[Drawing-slim]

You should now that NATO never cared about Albanians or Kosovo in reality. But they needed to use you guys as stepping stone to get into the balkans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel
We been through this a million times. Anyone is 109times better than Serbs and Russians controlling our lands.

[justme]

You should now that NATO never cared about Albanians or Kosovo in reality. But they needed to use you guys as stepping stone to get into the balkans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel
You should also know that Serbia doesn't care about Serbs in Kosovo they just want kosovo because of trepca, Yugoslavia was rich, it was the top 5 richest in the world because of kosovo the resources it has, there are rumours kosovo has gold in its land and other resources, and they wanted to get to albania to take their beach/port.
Albania has very beautiful beaches... It's a shame what their government did to Durresi.

[Zmey Gorynych]

Although not a supporter of russian intervention I have to say that it's pretty funny to see albanians and bosniaks getting so worked up by recent developments :) Relax people, nobody cares what you think (certainly not Putin). Your dear NATO wont confront Russia ... oh, and not everything is about Balkans so stop bringing up Serbia, let ukrainians have their moment in the limelight.

[ALSh]

You should now that NATO never cared about Albanians or Kosovo in reality. But they needed to use you guys as stepping stone to get into the balkans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel

This is a world of interest. And this relation was a kind of symbiotic relationship.

[RandoBloom]

As my grandpa said, all those who cheer for a war are sissies who have never participied in one.

And what did he say about those who dont want war :D

[justme]

Although not a supporter of russian intervention I have to say that it's pretty funny to see albanians and bosniaks getting so worked up by recent developments :) Relax people, nobody cares what you think (certainly not Putin). Your dear NATO wont confront Russia ... oh, and not everything is about Balkans so stop bringing up Serbia, let ukrainians have their moment in the limelight.

Albanians are not the ones here screaming "get rid of Russia" or even bringing up Serbia as an excuse to offend, that's Bosnians my dear.

[Empecinado]

And what did he say about those who dont want war :D

He fought for a whole civil war (3 years) and survived a concentration camp. He despised the war because he knew what it is, unlike those who support it and the closer they have been in a war has been playing Call of Duty...

[Zmey Gorynych]

Albanians are not the ones here screaming "get rid of Russia" or even bringing up Serbia as an excuse to offend, that's Bosnians my dear.
Kurt is bosniak !? You lot cant stand when someone steals all the attention and start popping up everywhere just like a fly crawls up a horses ass.

[justme]

Kurt is bosniak !? You lot cant stand when someone steals all the attention and start popping up everywhere just like a fly crawls up a horses ass.
Kurt wasn't speaking about Russians in a degrading way like Hjrul. You shouldn't be suprised Albanians in here are siding with Ukraine...

[RandoBloom]

He fought for a whole civil war (3 years) and survived a concentration camp. He despised the war because he knew what it is, unlike those who support it and the closer they have been in a war has been playing Call of Duty...

And my father was in a war for 3 years, and only thing he told me, after visiting Srebrenica is that he regrets not killing all of them, including babies, for they deserve even worse than that

[Empecinado]

And my father was in a war for 3 years, and only thing he told me, after visiting Srebrenica is that he regrets not killing all of them, including babies, for they deserve even worse than that

Bosnian War was a war of much less intensity than the pre-WW2 ones. Was rather based on ethnic cleasings and rapes, than in trench warfare, continuous bombings and regular armies facing each other with much harsher conditions to face with.

Spend years surrounded with a continuous smell of shit, artillery noise, bedbugs, scabies in legs, mutilated corpses, extreme hot and cold...that's what a real war is, and no one who has suffered it will be praising for more war.

[RandoBloom]

Bosnian War was a war of much less intensity than the pre-WW2 ones. Was rather based on ethnic cleasings and rapes, than in trench warfare, continuous bombings and regular armies facing each other with much harsher conditions to face with.

Spend years surrounded with a continuous smell of shit, artillery noise, bedbugs, scabies in legs, mutilated corpses, extreme hot and cold...that's what a real war is, and no one who has suffered it will be praising for more war.

You really have no clue do you?
Serb war might be one of rape, cleansing etc... based on weapon superiority, but Bosniaks fought like no one else. Name me one army, one country that had worse odds in recent times.
Ever since Finnish winter war no country had worse odds. Difference being we won, we are alive and we kept our honour intact by not killing civilians.

[Empecinado]

You really have no clue do you?
Serb war might be one of rape, cleansing etc... based on weapon superiority, but Bosniaks fought like no one else. Name me one army, one country that had worse odds in recent times.
Ever since Finnish winter war no country had worse odds. Difference being we won, we are alive and we kept our honour intact by not killing civilians.

I'm just saying that you can't compare the pre-WW2 with the post-WW2 wars. The first ones had a intensity and destruction much bigger BY FAR.

[Pure ja]

link?

I have read the 150 000 was activated in the drills within the Western military district - from the Black Sea to the Barents.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

look at the UK, France, Germany budget alone. it would be enough to smoke russia out.

But you are thinking money wins wars. Those countries have barely any tanks any more, russia has thousands of them. All their equipment is many times cheaper, too, and wages many times lower. But effectiveness is not far behind (probably higher for veteran troops, which those countries do not have). Russia's got a strong military tradition, UK and france and germany have put everyone who wanted to be serious about fighting a war out to pasture.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

To give dumb example, just a medium machinegun from US costs 50-100k. I mean you should be able to buy a person for that much!

I don't know the price of russian equivalents but it's probably 1/10th as much. And that doesn't count tanks, planes, etc. where the price differences are astounding. Quality is better too but not THAT much better.

[Äijä]

But you are thinking money wins wars. Those countries have barely any tanks any more, russia has thousands of them. All their equipment is many times cheaper, too, and wages many times lower. But effectiveness is not far behind (probably higher for veteran troops, which those countries do not have). Russia's got a strong military tradition, UK and france and germany have put everyone who wanted to be serious about fighting a war out to pasture.

UK has good soldiers to be fair.

[Äijä]

To give dumb example, just a medium machinegun from US costs 50-100k. I mean you should be able to buy a person for that much!

I don't know the price of russian equivalents but it's probably 1/10th as much. And that doesn't count tanks, planes, etc. where the price differences are astounding. Quality is better too but not THAT much better.

Finns use the Russian PKM, it is a good machinegun.

But I would not take a Russian tank against the Leopard 2s we have and are getting more.
In Finland you cant mass the tanks so it comes to quality of the tank and the crew, head to head battle, the Finns will smoke them like flies even if outnumbered.

[Methmatician]

Although not a supporter of russian intervention I have to say that it's pretty funny to see albanians and bosniaks getting so worked up by recent developments :) Relax people, nobody cares what you think (certainly not Putin). Your dear NATO wont confront Russia ... oh, and not everything is about Balkans so stop bringing up Serbia, let ukrainians have their moment in the limelight.
I think you mean Bosniak (singular). War is not a good option, Ukraine is already poor. How would destroying its infrastructure and reducing its population help?

[Drawing-slim]

It is absolutely amazing though how Finns beat almighty Russian army. The most impressive war story ever I would say.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Finns use the Russian PKM, it is a good machinegun.

But I would not take a Russian tank against the Leopard 2s we have and are getting more.
In Finland you cant mass the tanks so it comes to quality of the tank and the crew, head to head battle, the Finns will smoke them like flies even if outnumbered.

Yeah, but in Ukraine? I don't think anything but raw firepower will be useful, and russians have that to the extreme.

[Äijä]

Yeah, but in Ukraine? I don't think anything but raw firepower will be useful, and russians have that to the extreme.

Well that is tank country, Poles would have Leopards and shit load of T-72. :rolleyes:

[Pure ja]

It is absolutely amazing though how Finns beat almighty Russian army. The most impressive war story ever I would say.

In terms of tank losses per capita, the second best would be the first Chechen war.

[Äijä]

It is absolutely amazing though how Finns beat almighty Russian army. The most impressive war story ever I would say.

Well we could have done better without some Social Democratic politicians saving on the defense budget.

[Drawing-slim]

In terms of tank losses per capita, the second best would be the first Chechen war.

Yes, Chechens are truly tough as well. Even on the second war Putin shooting and bombing indiscriminately on civilian population and buildings they fought hard.

[dado]

bosnia could take out russia...dont know why are people so afraid of them...its not like they are america

[Äijä]

bosnia could take out russia...dont know why are people so afraid of them...its not like they are america

No you could not, sorry. :picard1:

[dado]

No you could not, sorry. :picard1:

gay finns almost did it, we most certanly can do it all the way

[Äijä]

gay finns almost did it, we most certanly can do it all the way

When you are smaller you have to be smarter and better organised than the opponent, Bosnia does not to me present those traits. Ask the Russian who would they rather fight.

[Shah-Jehan]

Dado is Guapo's sockpuppet:lol:

[dado]

When you are smaller you have to be smarter and better organised than the opponent, Bosnia does not to me present those traits. Ask the Russian who would they rather fight.
who would russian rather fight...well i think they made that choice back in 1939...they never dared to look us in a bad way llet alone attack us...we had some russian voluntiers fighting along serbs but thats all

[Äijä]

who would russian rather fight...well i think they made that choice back in 1939...they never dared to look us in a bad way llet alone attack us...we had some russian voluntiers fighting along serbs but thats all

Lol, what ever.
You also where not in the eastern front where the real war was taking place, you know the one with real fighting.

[dado]

Lol, what ever.
You also where not in the eastern front where the real war was taking place, you know the one with real fighting.

sure we did

handzar ss division

Fighting the Russians

Meanwhile, the advance of the Red Army through Belgrade and north into the formerly Hungarian-occupied Yugoslav region of Baranja made holding the line of the Danube critical for the Germans. In early November the Russians established a bridgehead over the Danube from Apatin (in modern-day Serbia). From 9 November onward, the division was committed in several stages to the Eastern Front, starting with the reconnaissance battalion which went into action at Dárda west of the Apatin bridgehead on 10 November. They were followed by a grouping of three battalions (I/27, II/28 and II/28), an artillery battalion (III/AR 13) and pioneer support. Known as Kampfgruppe Hanke after their commander Hans Hanke, they moved from the Brčko bridgehead and joined a blocking position at Pélmonostor on 14 November south-west of a second Russian bridgehead that had been established at Batina (in modern-day Croatia). As a result the last Muslim SS troops left Bosnia. Within a week they were joined by the reconnaissance battalion, which had acquitted itself well in fighting west of Apatin. By 20 November, the Red Army was across the Danube in force at Batina. The following day Kampfgruppe Hanke was driven out of its positions, when the remaining 200 troops withdrew. By 25 November the rest of the division was on its way from the Zagreb area. The remnants of Kampfgruppe Hanke were placed under command of Reichsgrenadier Division Hoch und Deutschmeister, withdrawing as far as Siklós in southern Hungary by 29 November.[98]

Within days Kampfgruppe Hanke was withdrawn from the front line to rejoin the division and re-fit, and they were moved to Barcs on the Drava river for that purpose. On 2 December the division was reunited, except for the rest of the pioneer battalion, which remained stranded in Bosnia by damaged bridges and railways. As a result of continued desertions and the catastrophic casualties suffered by Kampfgruppe Hanke, the division retained little of its original Bosnian character. Despite the return of disarmed Bosnians from labour units, the attachment of Hungarian infantry and artillery units and arrival of German replacements meant the division looked little different from any other unit in the Second Panzer Army.[99]

After a short break, the division was allocated to a sector of the Margarethe Line, a series of fixed defensive works south of Lake Balaton which held up the Russian advance. After several Red Army assaults were repulsed, static trench warfare developed between December 1944 and January 1945. In early March 1945, a few units took part in Operation Frühlingserwachen (Spring Awakening), which was to be Germany's last major offensive. Meanwhile, from December 1944 to March 1945, the rest of the division remained at Barcs rebuilding. In February they had been joined by the divisional pioneer battalion, which had finally managed to withdraw from Bosnia. On 16 March, the Soviets launched the Vienna Offensive, bypassing the Barcs area. That night, the division attacked the flanks of the Soviet drive at Heresznye, where it undertook its last offensive operation of the war.[100]
Retreat to the Reich

On 29 March, the Soviet 57th Army and the Bulgarian First Army assaulted the entire Second Panzer Army front, quickly breaching the line near Nagybajom. The division, holding positions just south of the penetration, began to withdraw to the north-west. It fell back to the Mura and barely managed to cross under constant air and ground attacks, with grievous casualties. Unable to take up effective positions, the division crossed the Reich frontier on 6 April and took up positions at Pettau in the so-called 'Reich Defence Line', where it remained until 5 May. Its last fighting was around Kiesmanndorff on 19 April.[101]

On 5 May, the remaining men, both German and Bosnian, began to retreat eastwards towards Austria. On 8 May, an order was sent to retreat to Wolfsberg, Carinthia.[102] On learning of the orders, unit imams of the 28th Regiment "approached their commander, Hans Hanke and requested that they and their men be discharged and be allowed to attempt to return to their homeland ... Soon, all of the Bosnians remaining in the division were asked if they wished to remain."[103] There are two reports of large scale reprisal killings of these members of 13th SS Division by the Partisans, one of which included the mass shooting of 1,400 soldiers.[104][105]

The retreat continued until 11 May. On 12 May, Hampel carried out surrender negotiations with the British Army at Sankt Veit an der Glan. On 15 May most of the men were transported to Rimini in Italy, where they were incarcerated with other prisoners of war from 7th SS Division and 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS.[106] Scattered remnants did not surrender until 18 May and many attempted to obliterate their SS blood type tattoos. Hampel escaped from a prisoner-of-war camp in Fallingbostel.[107]
Aftermath

While it achieved successes and proved itself competent in counter-insurgency operations against the Partisans in eastern Bosnia,[108] the division earned a reputation for brutality and savagery, not only during combat operations,[6] but also through atrocities committed against Serb and Jewish[109] civilians in the security zone.[110][111]

Thirty eight members were extradited to Yugoslavia to face trial. Some committed suicide, including Generalleutnant (Major General) Sauberzweig on 20 October 1946 and SS-Obersturmführer (Senior Lieutenant) Hans König.[112] Between 22 and 30 August 1947, trials took place at a military court in Sarajevo. "Although the indictment accused the division of murdering some five thousand people, only seven of the thirty-eight defendants were charged with specific offenses."[113] The accused were defended by three Yugoslav lawyers: two civilian and one military officer. All were found guilty; 10 were sentenced to death, and 28 received prison terms of between five years and life.[114] SS-Obersturmführer Imam Halim Malkoč had already been executed in Bihać on 7 March 1947.[115] All of those who were executed were junior officers and non-commissioned officers.[116]

Almost all the prisoners were released early and by 1952 all had been freed, except for one who had died. Having escaped, Hampel never faced a trial and lived until 11 January 1981 in Graz, Austria.[112]

[glass]

Yugoslavia was rich, it was the top 5 richest in the world because of kosovo the resources it has,
http://s4.postimg.org/xw08xwhwd/high_five.jpg (http://postimage.org/)