Thousands rally against llegitimate govt, raise Russian flags in eastern Ukraine

[RussiaPrussia]

Thousands of pro-Russian demonstrators across eastern Ukraine and Crimea are protesting against the new government, with administration buildings being seized in several cities. Gunshots have been reported as anti- and pro-Maidan protesters clash.
(http://rt.com/news/donetsk-kharkov-ukraine-protest-365/)
Protesters in Kharkov and Donetsk stormed local government offices and removed Ukrainian flags, replacing them with the Russian tricolor on Saturday.

Between 7,000 to 10,000 demonstrators gathered in the center of Donetsk, a large industrial city in eastern Ukraine. Reportedly, protesters seized the regional administration building. While a group of demonstrators were storming the building from the central entrance, a crowd in Lenin Square in front of it kept chanting “Russia!”

Донецк. Площадь Ленина #Крыму #Украины #Ukraine #антимайдан #майдан #малороссия #евромайдан #новороссия pic.twitter.com/5uIxIJwND5
— Антимайдан (@anti_maydan) March 1, 2014
The participants of the rally were demanding to hold a referendum on the future of the region, and particularly, on the status of Russian language.

Later in the day, Donetsk City Council held an extraordinary session and approved an idea of holding a referendum on the future fate of the Donetsk region. The council also supported the initiative on setting up municipal militia squads to protect citizens from possible aggression by radical nationalists, reported Itar-Tass. Additionally, authorities decided to introduce Russian as a second official language in the region.

The City Council refused to recognize the legitimacy of the government in Kiev and declared itself the only legitimate body in the city, according to ZN.UA.

The decisions were read out to the crowd of demonstrators, who praised the move.

Earlier, according to a local news portal, a scuffle occurred between Party of Regions supporters and the so-called Volunteers’ Crops commanded by activist Pavel Gubarev, who was spontaneously proclaimed “regional governor.” Addressing the crowd, Gubarev said the authorities in Kiev were illegitimate and called for establishing popular rule. He then urged demonstrators to set up a peaceful protest camp in front of the regional government’s office.

In Kharkov, the largest city in eastern Ukraine, pro-Russian protesters managed to break through the cordon of Maidan supporters and captured the government building. The storming was accompanied by clashes and shooting, RBC daily reported.

Фото дня pic.twitter.com/4S5RyCLOIc
— Sputnik & Pogrom (@sputnikipogrom) March 1, 2014
Многотысячный митинг-антимайдан на площади свободы сейчас #Харьков pic.twitter.com/N8HT6MAlXT
— АлексАндер МихайЛов (@belgorodmaster) March 1, 2014
Some 111 people have been injured in clashes between anti- and pro-Maidan demonstrators, reported Itar-Tass, citing the city’s mayor, Gennady Kernes.

At least 10 explosions were heard, both in the building and in the area around it. At least one policeman was among those hurt in the clashes, according to Itar-Tass.

#ХАРЬКОВ ШТУРМУЕТ ЗАСЕВШИХ В АДМИНИСТРАЦИИ МАЙДАНОВЦЕВ pic.twitter.com/u4IHbgfNuD
— АлексАндер МихайЛов (@belgorodmaster) March 1, 2014
One of the demonstrators got on to the roof of the administration building, waving the Russian flag. Meanwhile, pro-Maidan activists, who barricaded themselves inside one of the offices, are hanging a white flag out of the window. Police were accompanying injured supporters of the new government out of the building to ambulances, Unian agency reports.

Activists from Right Sector radical group, who were inside the building, “were throwing explosives, perhaps even grenades, into public transport,” Kharkov Mayor Kernes told journalists. “They also opened fire at protesters,” he added and showed a cartridge for a Kalashnikov assault-rifle which was found inside the building. According to the mayor, “120 cocktail bombs, two mines and drugs” were discovered at the site.

http://rt.com/files/news/23/00/50/00/d-3.jpg

In the Crimean capital of Simferopol, around 6,000 people marched, chanting “Russia!” and “No to Fascism!” and carrying a huge Russian flag.

Thousands were also demonstrating with Russian and Soviet flags in Odessa, the third-largest city in the country. According to police, around 5,000 people took part in the gathering, while organizers insist there were up to 20,000.

Protests were also held in Lugansk, Melitopol, Yevpatoria, Kerch and Mariupol.

http://rt.com/files/news/23/00/50/00/d-4.jpg

Crimeans began protesting after the new self-proclaimed government in Kiev introduced a law abolishing the use of other languages for official documents in Ukraine. More than half the Crimean population are Russian and use only this language for their communication. The residents have announced they are going to hold a referendum on March 30 to determine the fate of the Ukrainian autonomous region.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hjwv0A19ck

http://rt.com/files/news/23/00/50/00/1.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/23/00/50/00/2.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/23/00/50/00/ukr11.jpg

http://rt.com/files/news/23/00/50/00/ukr10.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIfDAhS55EQ

[RussiaPrussia]

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[RussiaPrussia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCYBtJ94kXc

[RussiaPrussia]

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eastern ukraine

[RussiaPrussia]

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[Pure ja]

In the Crimean capital of Simferopol, around 6,000 people marched, chanting “Russia!” and “No to Fascism!” and carrying a huge Russian flag.

Thousands were also demonstrating with Russian and Soviet flags in Odessa....

It is a typical trait that such pro-Kremlin forces hoist Russian and Soviet and Empire flags all together. Happened also in the Estonian 2007 staged riots. That is (probably) not orchestrated, it is simply the way such individuals identify themselves - through the symbols of Kremlin Derzhava Empire.

[RussiaPrussia]

It is a typical trait that such pro-Kremlin forces hoist Russian and Soviet and Empire flags all together. Happened also in the Estonian 2007 staged riots. That is (probably) not orchestrated, it is simply the way such individuals identify themselves - through the symbols of Kremlin Derzhava Empire.

do you support east west split in Ukraine?

[Longbowman]

If a majority in those areas want to join Russia, then they should.

[Pure ja]

do you support east west split in Ukraine?

I support a slow process of self-determination, WITHOUT the presence of RF forces.
If that slow process leads to a split, so be it.

[RussiaPrussia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCYBtJ94kXc

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[Mortimer]

i support russia

[RussiaPrussia]

http://imgur.com/LHAHMOM.jpg

[Longbowman]

http://imgur.com/LHAHMOM.jpg

But you say the same thing about the people in Kiev.

You have the same double standards.

[armenianbodyhair]

But you say the same thing about the people in Kiev.

You have the same double standards.
The self-determination angle is just extremely naive in general.

[RussiaPrussia]

But you say the same thing about the people in Kiev.

You have the same double standards.

its okay because russia is poorer and is eastern european. Americans and westerners want to even get more richer by dominating even more societies.

I believe in equality world wide thats why i am always on the site of the poorer country. EU and americas economy are obviously bigger than russias.

[Longbowman]

The self-determination angle is just extremely naive in general.

This forum has corrupted you.

[Longbowman]

its okay because russia is poorer and is eastern european. Americans and westerners want to even get more richer by dominating even more societies.

I believe in equality world wide thats why i am always on the site of the poorer country. EU and americas economy are obviously bigger than russias.

Ukraine is poorer than Russia. So you're on our side now? :)

[Acquisitor]

i support russia

and why do you support Russia ?

[armenianbodyhair]

This forum has corrupted you.

I thought that long before I joined here.

[Longbowman]

I thought that long before I joined here.

I never had you pegged for a fascist before.

[RussiaPrussia]

Ukraine is poorer than Russia. So you're on our side now? :)

but russia is much poorer than both america and Europe together. I support eurasian trade block therefor

[armenianbodyhair]

I never had you pegged for a fascist before.
That's because I'm not one. My statement wasn't particularly fascist either. It is much too vague to pin an ideology to.

[Longbowman]

That's because I'm not one. My statement wasn't particularly fascist either. It is much too vague to pin an ideology to.

'People shouldn't be able to determine their own national identity or government.'

Pretty fascist.

[Longbowman]

but russia is much poorer than both america and Europe together. I support eurasian trade block therefor

This fight is between Ukrainians and Russians. If you seriously always supported the poor, you'd support Ukraine. But you don't.

[RussiaPrussia]

This fight is between Ukrainians and Russians. If you seriously always supported the poor, you'd support Ukraine. But you don't.

no its a fight between russias and eu/natos influence.

[Longbowman]

no its a fight between russias and eu/natos influence.

The boots on the ground are Ukrainian and Russian. The EU/US have given no tangible support.

[armenianbodyhair]

'People shouldn't be able to determine their own national identity or government.'

Pretty fascist.
That isn't what I said.

[Fortis in Arduis]

its okay because russia is poorer and is eastern european. Americans and westerners want to even get more richer by dominating even more societies.

I believe in equality world wide thats why i am always on the site of the poorer country. EU and americas economy are obviously bigger than russias.

That sucks.

I am very disappoint.


That isn't what I said.

Even if it were, it would not be fascistic. Misappropriation of the word 'fascist' is so draining. :yawn:

[Pure ja]

no its a fight between russias and eu/natos influence.

If Kremlin sees that as a zero-sum game, then so be it.
Of course, the game could be even worse and end with zero for everybody.

[Acquisitor]

btw, the paralympics are about to start in Russia. A period of peace, where all nations unite together, right ?

[Swearengen]

This fight is between Ukrainians and Russians. If you seriously always supported the poor, you'd support Ukraine. But you don't.

Well lets take a step back and consider how this started.

Protests started when a deal with the EU was turned down. That deal was not very good. Any intelligent people who are rioting over that deal's refusal specifically are just using it as an excuse to exercise their hate for Russia. They are desperate, but it wasn't like it would have improved their situation.

[Longbowman]

Well lets take a step back and consider how this started.

Protests started when a deal with the EU was turned down. That deal was not very good. Any intelligent people who are rioting over that deal's refusal specifically are just using it as an excuse to exercise their hate for Russia. They are desperate, but it wasn't like it would have improved their situation.

Explain why a) the deal was not very good and b) the people are only rioting because they're all Russophobes and c) why Yanukovych was such a brilliant guy who definitely wasn't an easily-let criminal and puppet of foreign businesses and governments and d) why they wouldn't want to join the EU and e) why local governments in the West of Ukraine supported them, please.

[Swearengen]

Explain why a) the deal was not very good and b) the people are only rioting because they're all Russophobes and c) why Yanukovych was such a brilliant guy who definitely wasn't an easily-let criminal and puppet of foreign businesses and governments and d) why they wouldn't want to join the EU and e) why local governments in the West of Ukraine supported them, please.

a) Explain what was so good about it? They dangled a carrot in front of Ukrainians and just got them excited.
b) Because that deal wasn't worth rioting over.
c) He is a criminal. But every government is corrupt and he was democratically elected.
d) Many would, but that wasn't part of the deal.
e) Supported who? Ukrainians are desperate and think that any change couldn't be worse. But that isn't necessarily the case.

[Longbowman]

a) Explain what was so good about it? They dangled a carrot in front of Ukrainians and just got them excited.
b) Because that deal wasn't worth rioting over.
c) He is a criminal. But every government is corrupt and he was democratically elected.
d) Many would, but that wasn't part of the deal.
e) Supported who? Ukrainians are desperate and think that any change couldn't be worse. But that isn't necessarily the case.

a) So? They wanted the carrot. Explain why that's bad.
b) Explain why. They seemed to think otherwise.
c) False analogy. When Nixon was found to have been corrupt, he was kicked out and almost impeached. When your leaders are found to be working against your interests, you sack them. Power of recall, democratic right. No one argues he was elected.
d) It's implied that it would eventually happen.
e) The protesters. True, it isn't.

[Swearengen]

a) So? They wanted the carrot. Explain why that's bad.
b) Explain why. They seemed to think otherwise.
c) False analogy. When Nixon was found to have been corrupt, he was kicked out and almost impeached. When your leaders are found to be working against your interests, you sack them. Power of recall, democratic right. No one argues he was elected.
d) It's implied that it would eventually happen.
e) The protesters. True, it isn't.

The EU is not a good samaritan. The deal that they offered was a small sum of money and closer 'ties' to the EU as part of a political ploy. If they wanted Ukraine in the EU, they would have offered that. From my position, it doesn't seem that the EU cares about Ukraine at all. Whether Ukraine wants the carrot (entrance to the EU) or not, that doesn't mean they will get it. They are just acting out of desperation and decades of resentment toward Russia.

I think it is unrealistic to expect that any new government in Ukraine will be less corrupt than Yanukovych. I don't see how Tymoshenko will be any better. I do not support the protests in Ukraine as they have just gotten people killed. And I of course do not support a war.

[Longbowman]

The EU is not a good samaritan. The deal that they offered was a small sum of money and closer 'ties' to the EU as part of a political ploy. If they wanted Ukraine in the EU, they would have offered that. From my position, it doesn't seem that the EU cares about Ukraine at all. Whether Ukraine wants the carrot (entrance to the EU) or not, that doesn't mean they will get it. They are just acting out of desperation and decades of resentment toward Russia.

I think it is unrealistic to expect that any new government in Ukraine will be less corrupt than Yanukovych. I don't see how Tymoshenko will be any better. I do not support the protests in Ukraine as they have just gotten people killed. And I of course do not support a war.

Come what may, Ukraine deserves to be the master of its fate. If I had a corrupt leader, I'd evict him, and the next and the next until democracy was satisfied. If they want to join the EU even though the EU isn't giving them billions, then that's what they get to aim towards.

[Loki]

e) The protesters. True, it isn't.

East and South Ukraine seem to be rebelling against the protest-installed government. Ukraine may already effectively have lost the east and south.

[Swearengen]

Come what may, Ukraine deserves to be the master of its fate. If I had a corrupt leader, I'd evict him, and the next and the next until democracy was satisfied. If they want to join the EU even though the EU isn't giving them billions, then that's what they get to aim towards.

If Ukraine was to determine its own fate in a democratic sense, the anti-Russian west would be overruled by the eastern pro-Russian majority. So you need to distinguish between regions if you want to refer to what Ukrainians want.

Did Libyans determine their own fate when Gaddafi was ousted? No. A small rebel group decided for the entire country. Whether they liked it or not.

[Longbowman]

East and South Ukraine seem to be rebelling against the protest-installed government. Ukraine may already effectively have lost the east and south.

I try not to be inconsistent. As you know, I support self-determination, which to me is an integral part of free will and individuall right. If the West and North want to be European and the East and South, Russian, then perhaps they shall have to split. The West and South are more industrial, but don't overestimate the nominal wealth of a region vis-a-vis politics. Income inequality in Ukraine is severe and the Westerners don't see much of that money anyway. I think widespread referenda should be held, with each raion determining its future in either a European-orientated Western Ukraine, or a Russian-orientated Eastern Ukraine or even Russian oblast.

[Longbowman]

If Ukraine was to determine its own fate in a democratic sense, the anti-Russian west would be overruled by the eastern pro-Russian majority. So you need to distinguish between regions if you want to refer to what Ukrainians want.

Did Libyans determine their own fate when Gaddafi was ousted? No. A small rebel group decided for the entire country. Whether they liked it or not.

1) If Ukraine were*
2) Don't be ridiculous. Gaddafi had very little support. A small rebel group? Like the small rebel group in Syria? Whether they acted for good or bad, they had popular support.
And as I've said, perhaps Ukraine will have to split. It's too divided along sectarian lines anyway.

[Pure ja]

East and South Ukraine seem to be rebelling against the protest-installed government. Ukraine may already effectively have lost the east and south.

And Russia may have lost the potential trust from its neighbours at least for the remaining of this century.

[Swearengen]

1) If Ukraine were*
2) Don't be ridiculous. Gaddafi had very little support. A small rebel group? Like the small rebel group in Syria? Whether they acted for good or bad, they had popular support.
And as I've said, perhaps Ukraine will have to split. It's too divided along sectarian lines anyway.

Come on man you don't need to stoop to criticizing my grammar.

But anyway, according to who? Western media? I have heard different stories from Libyan people.

[Longbowman]

Come on man you don't need to stoop to criticizing my grammar.

But anyway, according to who? Western media? I have heard different stories from Libyan people.

I'm not criticising, I'm correcting.

According to the current Libyans. Yes, you'll meet many educated Libyans that benefited during the Gadaffi regime, presumably from the Tripoli region, that supported him. You'll meet old Germans who liked Hitler and you'll meet Cambodians who look at Pol Pot with rose-tinted glasses. But you know? it's irrelevant. It doesn't have bearing on Ukraine.

I have a rule - let people do what they want, as long as it brings no harm to others (yes, people have been killed, by the government mostly, though). It seems the majority of Ukraine would like to become orientated more towards Europe - so that is what Ukraine should be, because I support the right of the people to decide what happens to them. Most Belarussians are probably opposed to closer ties with Europe - though it's a state-controlled dictatorship, so what do we know - and as you can see, I'm not pressing for the Belarussians to join Europe. Because they have not indicated that they want to.

Now, it may be that Eastern and Southern Ukrainians are opposed to this. But if they are in the minority - and they are - they will have to choose between remaining Ukrainian and remaining Russian-orientated. They cannot be both.

[Loki]

And Russia may have lost the potential trust from its neighbours at least for the remaining of this century.

Likewise. It's not a one-way street.

[Swearengen]

Yeah sure you are. Don't be so petty.

Ukrainians are not being given the opportunity to decide for themselves. Violent hooligans decided to start destroying Kiev to get what they wanted personally. There are 45 million people in Ukraine. And I do not think that the reward will be worth hundreds (or thousands depending on how the situation escalates) lives.

If they were offered a better deal, it would be different.

[Longbowman]

Yeah sure you are. Don't be so petty.

Ukrainians are not being given the opportunity to decide for themselves. Violent hooligans decided to start destroying Kiev to get what they wanted personally. There are 45 million people in Ukraine. And I do not think that the reward will be worth hundreds (or thousands depending on how the situation escalates) lives.

If they were offered a better deal, it would be different.

A few hooligans? Millions of protesters and most official support (except Yanukovych); all the opposition, most local authorities.

They'll decide without your input.

[Swearengen]

A few hooligans? Millions of protesters and most official support (except Yanukovych); all the opposition, most local authorities.

They'll decide without your input.

Millions of protesters?

I'm not trying to get my word in. All I care about is that Ukrainians do what is best for Ukraine. I am not pro-Russia either. Ukraine doesn't really have friends and something does need to change for Ukraine to prosper. However, Yanukovych did get popular support and pro-Russians are the majority. You can't only support democracy when it suits you. And the losers of the election shouldn't be able to assume office just because the minority decided to get loud.

[Loki]

A few hooligans? Millions of protesters and most official support (except Yanukovych); all the opposition, most local authorities.


Only in poor Western Ukraine.

[Longbowman]

Only in poor Western Ukraine.

Only among the poor majority. Are their voices not equally valid? Are you not a Socialist?

[Longbowman]

Millions of protesters?

I'm not trying to get my word in. All I care about is that Ukrainians do what is best for Ukraine. I am not pro-Russia either. Ukraine doesn't really have friends and something does need to change for Ukraine to prosper. However, Yanukovych did get popular support and pro-Russians are the majority. You can't only support democracy when it suits you. And the losers of the election shouldn't be able to assume office just because the minority decided to get loud.

I've addressed these issues. You're going in circles. Yes, millions, yes, the majority, yes, being elected doesn't give you 5 years of being a dictator.

[Swearengen]

I've addressed these issues. You're going in circles.

All you have really said is that you support self-determination and that "it seems the majority of Ukraine would like to become orientated more towards Europe." Even though that isn't true.

[Longbowman]

All you have really said is that you support self-determination and that "it seems the majority of Ukraine would like to become orientated more towards Europe." Even though that isn't true.

It is true and you have no evidence to the contrary.

All I have said is, I support self-determination. And the right to recall. And that corruption begets punishment.

All you have said is 'no, no, they want to be part of Russia and Yanukovych won the election and there were only a handful of protesters which the police admitted to having been ordered to fire upon.'

Weak.

[Swearengen]

It is true and you have no evidence to the contrary.

All I have said is, I support self-determination. And the right to recall. And that corruption begets punishment.

All you have said is 'no, no, they want to be part of Russia and Yanukovych won the election and there were only a handful of protesters which the police admitted to having been ordered to fire upon.'

Weak.

If they are in the majority, how did Yanukovych win the election?

Eastern and southern Ukraine combined have a population of 21.2 million. And central Ukraine is not anti-Russian like Galicia and Volhynia. There are plenty of pro-Russians there to tip the scale in the pro-Russian's favour.

[Longbowman]

If they are in the majority, how did Yanukovych win the election?

Eastern and southern Ukraine combined have a population of 21.2 million. And central Ukraine is not anti-Russian like Galicia and Volhynia. There are plenty of pro-Russians there to tip the scale in the pro-Russian's favour.

Because they voted for other reasons? Yanukovych won a plurality not a majority? Because they changed their minds? Because Yanukovych's manifesto wasn't particularly honest?

If Yanukovych was so popular, why was he chucked out of not just Kiev but all Ukraine?

The majority of Ukrainians are pro-EU. But if there were a 51-49 geographical split they should just separate. Unfair for one to hold the other to ransom.

[Swearengen]

Because they voted for other reasons? Yanukovych won a plurality not a majority? Because they changed their minds? Because Yanukovych's manifesto wasn't particularly honest?

If Yanukovych was so popular, why was he chucked out of not just Kiev but all Ukraine?

The majority of Ukrainians are pro-EU. But if there were a 51-49 geographical split they should just separate. Unfair for one to hold the other to ransom.

Your notion that the majority of Ukrainians are pro-EU is baseless and made up to support your views.

Western and Central Ukraine are not united in their views. Central Ukraine is somewhere between western Ukraine and eastern/Southern Ukraine. Some are pro-west and some are pro-Russian. Some are nationalistic and want nothing to do with EU or Russia. And even more western Ukrainians are nationalistic and want nothing to do with either.

But eastern and southern Ukraine is already almost half of Ukraine's population and they are overwhelmingly pro-Russia. They are much more numerous than western Ukraine and much more pro-Russia than western Ukraine is pro-west.

[Longbowman]

Your notion that the majority of Ukrainians are pro-EU is baseless and made up to support your views.

Western and Central Ukraine are not united in their views. Central Ukraine is somewhere between western Ukraine and eastern/Southern Ukraine. Some are pro-west and some are pro-Russian. Some are nationalistic and want nothing to do with EU or Russia. And even more western Ukrainians are nationalistic and want nothing to do with either.

But eastern and southern Ukraine is already almost half of Ukraine's population and they are overwhelmingly pro-Russia. They are much more numerous than western Ukraine and much more pro-Russia than western Ukraine is pro-west.

You're the one whose idea of Ukraine is baseless. Your entire argument is now predicated on the notion that Ukraine is pro-Russia. But as explained, a) even if that were true, which is isn't, the slim regional minority should secede, and b), it isn't true. Western and Central Ukraine is as pro-Europe as the South and East is pro-Russia. If you have evidence to the contrary, procure it, instead of calling me out as having made stuff up when you don't provide sources or reasoning yourself.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/28/a_ukraine_crimea_faq_roundup_here_s_what_you_need_ to_know_about_the_crisis.html

If anything the East has serious pro-EU factions, not vice-versa.

Going by ethnicity. Yellow is Ukrainian:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Ukraine_ethnic_1897.jpg

Going by election results, clear regional split:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2013/12/ukraine-2010-election.jpg

This is a tale of two countries.

Ethnic Russians in Ukraine:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Russians_Ukraine_2001.PNG

Your ball.

[Swearengen]

Ethnicity isn't relevant. Ukrainians decide their fate as citizens. An ethnic Russian from Ukraine has just as much voice as an ethnic Ukrainian. Living in Britain, do you think that ethnic British should have more voice than anyone else?

There is a regional split; however, that colour demarcation doesn't tell the entire story.

Many western and central Ukrainians are pro-Svoboda. They are not pro-west. They are just Ukrainian nationalists. And they are clearly not happy with the current Tymoshenko government

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Svoboda-2012.png

Looking at the population density of Ukraine, you can see how this eliminates many of the supposed pro-west western Ukrainians.

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/87/71787-004-01D8BAFF.jpg

[Longbowman]

Ethnicity isn't relevant. Ukrainians decide their fate as citizens. An ethnic Russian from Ukraine has just as much voice as an ethnic Ukrainian. Living in Britain, do you think that ethnic British should have more voice than anyone else?

There is a regional split; however, that colour demarcation doesn't tell the entire story.

Many western and central Ukrainians are pro-Svoboda. They are not pro-west. They are just Ukrainian nationalists. And they are clearly not happy with the current Tymoshenko government

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Svoboda-2012.png

Looking at the population density of Ukraine, you can see how this eliminates many of the supposed pro-west western Ukrainians.

http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/87/71787-004-01D8BAFF.jpg

Nice try, but Svoboda is anti-Russian. As you said, it's Nationalist. As I've said, that's the fight here.

Of course all citizens should have an equal say, I was just explaining the split.

If that'll be all, I think we're done here.

[Swearengen]

Going by ethnicity. Yellow is Ukrainian:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Ukraine_ethnic_1897.jpg




This map is from 1897 LOL.

I'm sorry, but you clearly have no idea about the situation in Ukraine.


Nice try, but Svoboda is anti-Russian. As you said, it's Nationalist. As I've said, that's the fight here.

Of course all citizens should have an equal say, I was just explaining the split.

If that'll be all, I think we're done here.

We are currently debating your statement that most Ukrainians are pro-west. Svoboda is not pro-west.

[Longbowman]

This map is from 1897 LOL.

I'm sorry, but you clearly have no idea about the situation in Ukraine.

Yep. My bad, just look at the other map I put in. This one's pretty interesting though, look at how it's changed.

Insults and lack of argumentation aside, I think you're done here.

PS: map of the 2004 election broken down into percentages:

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/800px-ukraine_electionsmap_nov2004.png

[Swearengen]

2004 is too old. Yushchenko was president from 2005-2010.

Svoboda has just recently emerged and is garnering a lot of support in western and central Ukraine. Nationalists voted for Yushchenko because they didn't want to vote for Yanukovych and didn't have a nationalistic party to vote for.

[Longbowman]

2004 is too old. Yushchenko was president from 2005-2010.

Svoboda has just recently emerged and is garnering a lot of support in western and central Ukraine. Nationalists voted for Yushchenko because they didn't want to vote for Yanokovych and didn't have a nationalistic party to vote for.

It's interesting is all. Point is, majority of Ukrainians support less ties with Russia. Especially in the West and Centre.

2010:

http://thepolitikalblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/ukraine-2010-presidential-election.png

[RussiaPrussia]

2004 is too old. Yushchenko was president from 2005-2010.

Svoboda has just recently emerged and is garnering a lot of support in western and central Ukraine. Nationalists voted for Yushchenko because they didn't want to vote for Yanukovych and didn't have a nationalistic party to vote for.

its funny if svoboda gains more and more power. Because even 30% would be enough and the eu and eu public wouldnt except ukraine

[Swearengen]

its funny if svoboda gains more and more power. Because even 30% would be enough and the eu and eu public wouldnt except ukraine

Svoboda is gaining support at a scary rate.

http://www.geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Svoboda_party_map_2006-2012.png

The thing is that, even if western+central ukraine and eastern+southern Ukraine separated, there would still be political unrest in western+central Ukraine. It would just be pro-west vs the nationalists.

[RussiaPrussia]

Svoboda is gaining support at a scary rate.

http://www.geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Svoboda_party_map_2006-2012.png

The thing is that, even if western+central ukraine and eastern+southern Ukraine separated, there would still be political unrest in western+central Ukraine. It would just be pro-west vs the nationalists.

well they can join hungary or estonia

[DeaththeKid]

Yes powerful images coming out of Eastern Ukraine. It is heartening to see Russian colours flying on traditional Russian land.

[DeaththeKid]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10676785/Separatist-in-Donetsk-proclaims-peoples-government.html

Ukraine crisis: separatist in Donetsk proclaims 'people's government'

[RussiaPrussia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulDM2JHhNxI

[RussiaPrussia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1MDS4o5Lfc

[RussiaPrussia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgsKOtYVczI