Italians have the highest inner genetic dfference in Europe

[Foxy]

http://www.lanazione.it/pisa/cronaca/2014/01/15/1010385-italiani_primi_europa_varieta_genetica_ricerca_par la_anche_pisano.shtml

A study conducted by Sergio Tofanelli, researcher at the University of Pisa, and his team for a study financed by the National Geographic Society and the universities of Bologna, Pisa, Cagliari and Roma, has concluded that Italians are the people of Europe with the highest inner genetic difference.

A news is that the biggest genetic difference is not the north-south division. These differences appear as dots along the peninsula and even on the isles and are probably due both to preistoric migrations and storic invasions/migrations.

Analizying just the maternal line of Italians, it shows that the genetic diversity of the inhabitants of the peninsula is 30 times higher compared to that of the Portuguese and Hungarians.

http://m.repubblica.it/mobile/r/wrap/scienze/2014/01/09/news/italiani_popolo_pi_ricco_di_diversit_genetica_in_e uropa-75495329/?gx=e1s1

Italians are a true genetic melting pot. Contributions to this genetics have arrived from multifarious communities that during history have colonized, invaded or settled Italy, from the germanic communities in the north, to the Greek and Arbereshe linguistic isles in the south, from the Sardinians to the ancient populations of Italy.

Surprisingly, researchers have prooved that there is more genetic difference between an inhabitant of Sappada and an inhabitant of the near area than between a Spaniard and a Romanian.

Destro Bisol, an anthropologist involved in the project, concluded with this phrase:

"This research should make us wonder about razism and xenophoby. As a people we have reached big results thank to our inner difference, thank to the fact that we have continued to mix for a very long period. We catch the occasion to rememeber that a proof of these migrations are the 12 linguistic minorities, like the Arbereshe of southern Italy and the Croats in Molise, that still today are protected by our law."

(Sorry for the translation, I tried to translated the main concepts as the articles are in Italian)

[Sikeliot]

I am not surprised. Far northern Italians are genetically similar to Spanish and French, while people at the very far south like Calabria and Sicily are like a more European version of Cyprus. That is opposite ends of the Mediterranean all in one peninsula.

[Styrian Mujo]

Thank the Romans.

[Foxy]

I am not surprised. Far northern Italians are genetically similar to Spanish and French, while people at the very far south like Calabria and Sicily are like a more European version of Cyprus. That is opposite ends of the Mediterranean all in one peninsula.

Read again. It says that the biggest genetic difference does not run along a north-south division but it appears as a mosaic along the whole peninsula + the isles.
For example a person living in the Sardinian city of Alghero, which was founded by Catalans, is probably similar to a Catalan, while a person from Pula, founded by Romans, is closer to a central Italian, and so on...
Villagers from no more than some km show an incredible inner genetic difference, sometimes higher than that of two peoples from two different extremes of Europe.

[Sikeliot]

The genetic differences will fade soon though with all the southern Italian migration to the north..

[gold_fenix]

it isn't suprising , it is enought to see different results coming from persons who make 23andme or ftdna, anyway i don't understand why associate South Italian with Sicilian

[Sikeliot]

it isn't suprising , it is enought to see different results coming from persons who make 23andme or ftdna, anyway i don't understand why associate South Italian with Sicilian

Sicilians are southern Italian.

Anyway, I suspect Greeks have as much genetic variation as Italians, in part because everyone speaking Greek is allowed to identify as such. The difference between Epirotes and Cypriots is just as large as the difference between Italians.

[Styrian Mujo]

Mongrels all of them.

[Foxy]

The genetic differences will fade soon though with all the southern Italian migration to the north..

Ehm... maybe you don't catch the point. Southern Italians have as much inner difference as northern, central and islander Italians.
However a thing about you never speak is that during the conquest of the Kingdom of Naples the troops included not only northern Italians, but also Poles, Russians, French, Hungarians, Swisses, Arabs and Germans, all who had the freedom of rape (sad but true) on southern Italian women, while southern Italians were mostly involved in the resistence (with some exceptions).
The most violent during the reconquest appeared the Hussars of the Hungarian army.

[Sikeliot]

Ehm... maybe you don't catch the point. Southern Italians have as much inner difference as northern, central and islander Italians.
However a thing about you never speak is that during the conquest of the Kingdom of Naples the troops included not only northern Italians, but also Poles, Russians, French, Hungarians, Swisses, Arabs and Germans, all who had the freedom of rape (sad but true) on southern Italian women, while southern Italians were mostly involved in the resistence (with some exceptions).
The most violent during the reconquest appeared the Hussars of the Hungarian army.

Well judging by 23andme results the impact was not very large since the most North Euro I have seen a southern Italian score is like 5%, and that was an exception. They all plot fairly closely as well.

Within just Sicily I have seen a range.. I have seen some outliers clustering near Tuscans and north Italians, and other outliers near Druze.

[Sizzo]

Bergamo Sample pride.

[Prince Carlo]

The genetic differences will fade soon though with all the southern Italian migration to the north..

Southern born people make 10% of total population of Lombardy and other Northern regions have the same or less. NE Italy has almost 0 Southerners.

[Argang]

Well judging by 23andme results the impact was not very large since the most North Euro I have seen a southern Italian score is like 5%, and that was an exception. They all plot fairly closely as well.

Within just Sicily I have seen a range.. I have seen some outliers clustering near Tuscans and north Italians, and other outliers near Druze.

Large internal differences can be caused by drift and isolation, that will show in Fst-distances but not in admixture analysis. Some Resians are more distant from mainstream Italians than Basques and other well known isolates.


Population genetic studies on European populations have highlighted Italy as one of genetically most diverse regions. This is possibly due to the country’s complex demographic history and large variability in terrain throughout the territory. This is the reason why Italy is enriched for population isolates, Sardinia being the best-known example. As the population isolates have a great potential in disease-causing genetic variants identification, we aimed to genetically characterize a region from northeastern Italy, which is known for isolated communities. Total of 1310 samples, collected from six geographically isolated villages, were genotyped at >145 000 single-nucleotide polymorphism positions...The observed level of genetic isolation in Friuli-Venezia Giulia region is more extreme according to several measures of isolation compared with Sardinians, French Basques and northern Finns, thus proving the status of an isolate.



http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v21/n6/full/ejhg2012229a.html

Northeast Italy and Sardinia are very likely not the only regions in Italy that demonstrate this, there's just not been that much comparable research in southern areas.

[Ouistreham]

The genetic differences will fade soon though with all the southern Italian migration to the north..
This is not the point.
Read the starting post again.

Those large genetic differences between neighbouring areas are a specifically Italian phenomenon, with is in my opinion correlated with two other Italian idiosyncratic features:

• The "community family" model (read Emmanuel Todd), whose effect is that the society is made of (often conflicting) clans structured by horizontal parentage links. Hence the endless feuds between Guelphs and Ghibellines, between Romeo and Juliet's families etc.

• Italy is a urban civilisation. Villages in the French or English meaning (minor parishes scattered around a city) are virtually non-existent in Italy. Each "village" there is actually a small town of a few thousand inhabitants, with its own story, its own traditions, often its own dialect. Those communities love to hate and despise each other, which has certainly contributed to keep intermarriage and genetic mixing low. A Sicilian would more willingly emigrate to the USA, Australia, France, Argentina (or to Turin) than to any other Sicilian town close to his own birthplace!

This situation has led to strong endogamic bias that is the key to the country's genetic heterogeneity even at local level.

[Tooting Carmen]

Not surprising, nor new - the internal genetic diversity of Italy has been well-known for a long time.

[Selurong]

That is why Italians are the sexiest in Europe because they're the most diverse.

[Styrian Mujo]

That is why Italians are the sexiest in Europe because they're the most diverse.
Have you seen Italians? They usually have crooked features and many are overweight. Scandinavians are probably the best looking population in Europe.

[Selurong]

Have you seen Italians? They usually have crooked features and many are overweight. Scandinavians are probably the best looking population in Europe.

Everybody has their own perceptions over who is the best looking people.
What I stated is just my personal opinion.

[Scipio Africanus]

http://www.clipart-natale.com/clipart-carnevale/clipart-marted%C3%AC-grasso-giocoliere.gif

nice

[Styrian Mujo]

Everybody has their own perceptions over who is the best looking people.
What I stated is just my personal opinion.
To a degree yes.

[Prince Carlo]

Marowit still has not understood that we could ban him in every moment. Just like the iberberians have banned Arnbjorn.

It's just that we found his trolling style quite funny and none here takes him seriously.

[Ernesto Grandi]

that's beacuse italy is not a biological concept but an ideological one. italy is a little empire based on the italian ideology.
who refuse the concept of ideology and use biology to underline false differences is just an anti-italian heretic.
anti-italian heresy exhist inside and outside the borders of a false nation created by anti-italians in their contaimnet strategy against Rome imperialism.

the italian "boot" was created by anti-italian heretics who refuse to consider themselves italians.

example of anti-italian heretics: protestants, christian orthodox peoples, scandinavians suprematists and in general who refuse to consider Rome the moral center of their lives.

[Styrian Mujo]

Marowit still has not understood that we could ban him in every moment. Just like the iberberians have banned Arnbjorn.

It's just that we found his trolling style quite funny and none here takes him seriously.
I enjoy trolling Italians because you get so butthurt all the time:)

[Ctwentysevenj]

Maybe because the Italian peninsular was the centre of the Roman Empire, therefore a lot different people were drawn to the area, and then when all the Germanic tribes sacked Rome, they came in droves.

[Scandalf]

Maybe because the Italian peninsular was the centre of the Roman Empire, therefore a lot different people were drawn to the area, and then when all the Germanic tribes sacked Rome, they came in droves.

Not sure, Italy was colonized both by Greeks and Phoenicians before Rome's expansion. Btw, the Greeks established posts as far up as the Po's delta.

[Ulla]

I enjoy trolling Italians because I have a huge problem with my own personal identity

It sounds more true.

[alfieb]

Not sure, Italy was colonized both by Greeks and Phoenicians before Rome's expansion. Btw, the Greeks established posts as far up as the Po's delta.
Phoenicians didn't colonize Italy. They colonized Sicily and Sardinia.

[Scandalf]

Phoenicians didn't colonize Italy. They colonized Sicily and Sardinia.

My bad, I considered them Italy. Please forgive me!

[alfieb]

It's not a matter of taking offense, it's a matter of their blood not being in the average Italian in significant quantities due to that fact. Phoenicians and Carthaginians were in Sicily and Sardinia for hundreds of years.

Same with the Arabs. Other than for 20 years in Bari, the Muslims never conquered anywhere in Mainland Italy.

McDonald was easily able to tell that I was not mainland Italian, and that's even with 25% Northern Italian blood from Liguria and Lombardia to dilute my Middle Eastern ancestry.

[Scandalf]

It's not a matter of taking offense, it's a matter of their blood not being in the average Italian in significant quantities due to that fact. Phoenicians and Carthaginians were in Sicily and Sardinia for hundreds of years.

Same with the Arabs. Other than for 20 years in Bari, the Muslims never conquered anywhere in Mainland Italy.

McDonald was easily able to tell that I was not mainland Italian, and that's even with 25% Northern Italian blood from Liguria and Lombardia to dilute my Middle Eastern ancestry.
Never understood why they (Arabs) didn't put more pressure on moving upwards in the Italian peninsula

[Ulla]

Read again. It says that the biggest genetic difference does not run along a north-south division but it appears as a mosaic along the whole peninsula + the isles.
For example a person living in the Sardinian city of Alghero, which was founded by Catalans, is probably similar to a Catalan, while a person from Pula, founded by Romans, is closer to a central Italian, and so on...
Villagers from no more than some km show an incredible inner genetic difference, sometimes higher than that of two peoples from two different extremes of Europe.

This is the Italian text but La Nazione is a popular tabloid.

Inoltre, le differenze più marcate non sono di tipo Nord-Sud, ma distribuite a mosaico lungo tutta la penisola e perfino nelle isole.

It doesn't state that there is no difference between North-South but that the most pronounced differences are widespread as a mosaic. The study includes all the minorities as average Italians.

In my opinion for this mosaic effect we need many more genetic samples from Italy, all the autosomal maps of Pontikos-Lazzaridis lack of credibility for this reason.

That Italians have the highest inner genetic dfference in Europe is pretty obvious, for historical but also for geographical reasons.

In 40 years will be other European nations to have higher inner genetic dfference. Italy is simply ahead of its time.:laugh:

[Ulla]

Never understood why they (Arabs) didn't put more pressure on moving upwards in the Italian peninsula

Byzantines and Langobardi.

[alfieb]

Never understood why they (Arabs) didn't put more pressure on moving upwards in the Italian peninsula

They tried, with the Emirate of Bari. Byzantines got in the way.

Ottoman Turks also tried, with the intention of conquering the entire peninsula and marching on Rome, but by then all of Southern Italy and Sicily were Catholic and ruled by the Aragonese, and the Crown of Aragon beat them up.

[Peter Nirsch]

great genetic difference, but they have one peculiar look and a unmistakable way of life.

[Isleño]

I am not surprised. Far northern Italians are genetically similar to Spanish and French, while people at the very far south like Calabria and Sicily are like a more European version of Cyprus. That is opposite ends of the Mediterranean all in one peninsula.Sicilians are less exotic than Cypriots, but I get what you were trying to say.

[Ulla]

great genetic difference, but they have one peculiar look and a unmistakable way of life.

a unmistakable way of life...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6NfYkl3Rxc

[Isleño]

It's not a matter of taking offense, it's a matter of their blood not being in the average Italian in significant quantities due to that fact. Phoenicians and Carthaginians were in Sicily and Sardinia for hundreds of years.

Same with the Arabs. Other than for 20 years in Bari, the Muslims never conquered anywhere in Mainland Italy.

McDonald was easily able to tell that I was not mainland Italian, and that's even with 25% Northern Italian blood from Liguria and Lombardia to dilute my Middle Eastern ancestry.
Sicilians look to have about 15% SW Asian on average. This seems to be the only real difference. Their other components seem to be on par with other Southern Europeans. They seem to have twice as much as Tuscany that has twice as much as Bergamo:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

[Volscian]

This study is a crap. They have studied only the MtDNA of particular isolated populations. The Ralph&Coop paper about IBD says that some of the lowest levels of common ancestry are seen in the Italian peninsula, which may indicate different effects of historical population expansions in these area and more stably structured populations. Southeastern Europeans, for example, share large numbers of common ancestors that date roughly to the era of the Slavic and Hunnic expansions around 1,500 years ago, while most common ancestors that Italians share with other populations lived longer than 2,500 years ago.

[alfieb]

Sicilians look to have about 15% SW Asian on average. This seems to be the only real difference. Their other components seem to be on par with other Southern Europeans. They seem to have twice as much as Tuscany that has twice as much as Bergamo:

Northwest African as well. ;)

Less than the Spaniards and the Jews, but more than everyone else. (Maltese excluded, as they are Sicilians)

[Insuperable]

It's not a matter of taking offense, it's a matter of their blood not being in the average Italian in significant quantities due to that fact. Phoenicians and Carthaginians were in Sicily and Sardinia for hundreds of years.

Same with the Arabs. Other than for 20 years in Bari, the Muslims never conquered anywhere in Mainland Italy.

McDonald was easily able to tell that I was not mainland Italian, and that's even with 25% Northern Italian blood from Liguria and Lombardia to dilute my Middle Eastern ancestry.

Whatever people were in Sardinia they had no effect on modern Sardinians at least. I don't know for Sicilians.

[alfieb]

Whatever people were in Sardinia they had no effect on modern Sardinians at least.

True. This is why Berid is considered a European-origin phenotype rather than a North African one, because it is very common among Sardinians (hence the alternative name for it Paleo-Sardinian) and they show little signs of North African DNA, unlike Maltese, Sicilians, and Iberians, who all show visible amounts of admixture.

[Isleño]

Northwest African as well. ;)

Less than the Spaniards and the Jews, but more than everyone else. (Maltese excluded, as they are Sicilians)True. It's those two components that make the difference. But there are other Europeans that have significant but still minor foreign admixtures like the Russians, Finns, and Mordovians. And of course the ones you mentioned like Spaniards (which Portuguese would too, but not in the study) as well as Greeks. So that's 6 European countries right there. But I think among European, Sicilians are the more exotic of the six, unless you count Canarians and Cypriots. The only other one that has both of those ancestries in sizeable amounts besides Sicilians/Maltese looks to be Spaniards (and Portuguese by default). And if we are to count Ashkenazis...

[alfieb]

True. It's those two components that make the difference. But there are other Europeans that have significant but still minor foreign admixtures like the Russians, Finns, and Mordovians. And of course the ones you mentioned like Spaniards (which Portuguese would too, but not in the study) as well as Greeks. So that's 6 European countries right there. But I think among European, Sicilians are the more exotic of the six, unless you count Canarians and Cypriots. The only other one that has both of those ancestries in sizeable amounts besides Sicilians/Maltese looks to be Spaniards (and Portuguese by default). And if we are to count Ashkenazis...

Cyprus is a Middle Eastern country that is considered European for cultural reasons. If the Canaries were independent, they would be, too. That's the difference. Malta+Sicily are exotic Southern Europeans.

[Isleño]

Cyprus is a Middle Eastern country that is considered European for cultural reasons. If the Canaries were independent, they would be, too. That's the difference. Malta+Sicily are exotic Southern Europeans.The Canaries would only be considered a North African country by location if it were independent. Genetically most Canarians are predominantly European (as you can see in the autosomal study I posted here and also my Canarian genetics thread), plus our culture is largely Iberian (but also has flavors from North Africa and Latin America). So how would that make us that much different than Sicily and Malta? See what I mean? Most Canarians are just like Sicilians (albeit a bit more exotic), but still.

[Isleño]

True. This is why Berid is considered a European-origin phenotype rather than a North African one, because it is very common among Sardinians (hence the alternative name for it Paleo-Sardinian) and they show little signs of North African DNA, unlike Maltese, Sicilians, and Iberians, who all show visible amounts of admixture.I also believe Berid to be an indigenous Southern European phenotype. But I think it's also indigenous to coastal North Africa also. I think Berberid is bigger in North Africa though. Berid is a major phenotype among Canarians.

[alfieb]

The Canaries would only be considered a North African country by location if it were independent. Genetically most Canarians are predominantly European (as you can see in the autosomal study I posted here and also my Canarian genetics thread), plus our culture is largely Iberian (but also has flavors from North Africa and Latin America). So how would that make us that much different than Sicily and Malta? See what I mean? Most Canarians are just like Sicilians (albeit a bit more exotic), but still.
As you said, location. It is physically a predominantly white European region of Northwestern Africa, as Ceuta and Melilla are.

Cyprus is geographically part of Southwestern Asia. Sicily and Malta are geographically considered to be part of Southern Europe.

So while it is true that you guys aren't much different from us at all, we're still not located on the same continent.

I believe there are three small islands (Pilaggi) that are considered part of the autonomous region of Sicily (but obviously far from the island of Sicily itself) that are technically considered part of the African continent rather than Europe.

[Isleño]

Cyprus is a Middle Eastern country that is considered European for cultural reasons. If the Canaries were independent, they would be, too. That's the difference. Malta+Sicily are exotic Southern Europeans.

If you don't count Canarians or Cypriots, the Maltese would be the most exotic in Europe. Ashkenazis are about the same as Maltese and Sicilians are a little less exotic than those two, but are still close to them. Those three are closer to each other than to any other Europeans. But we gotta count Canarians and Cypriots because Canarians are part of Spain and Cypriots are part of the EU with a European influenced culture. But Cypriots are the most foreign out of them all. As for exoticness, from least to most it would go Sicilian, Ashkenazi, Maltese, Canarian, Cypriot.

[Isleño]

As you said, location. It is physically a predominantly white European region of Northwestern Africa, as Ceuta and Melilla are.

Cyprus is geographically part of Southwestern Asia. Sicily and Malta are geographically considered to be part of Southern Europe.

So while it is true that you guys aren't much different from us at all, we're still not located on the same continent.

I believe there are three small islands (Pilaggi) that are considered part of the autonomous region of Sicily (but obviously far from the island of Sicily itself) that are technically considered part of the African continent rather than Europe.
Yes of course, but I usually include Canarians for Europeans because Canarians are part of the country of Spain and are predominantly Iberian. But I understand that geographically the Canaries are in North Africa. We are not only genetic ouliers, but are geographical ones too :)

[Isleño]

If Sicilians didn't have the SW Asian and North African component, they would be more like Albanians genetically.

[alfieb]

If Sicilians didn't have the SW Asian and North African component, they would be more like Albanians genetically.

Probably. When you remove people with Middle Eastern features (including Berids for this example), the average Sicilian is a Dinaro-Med.

[Isleño]

Probably. When you remove people with Middle Eastern features (including Berids for this example), the average Sicilian is a Dinaro-Med.Yes, but look back to the study I posted, or here it is again, look at the Albanian sample and the Sicilian sample:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

[Scipio Africanus]

This study is a crap. They have studied only the MtDNA of particular isolated populations. The Ralph&Coop paper about IBD says that some of the lowest levels of common ancestry are seen in the Italian peninsula, which may indicate different effects of historical population expansions in these area and more stably structured populations. Southeastern Europeans, for example, share large numbers of common ancestors that date roughly to the era of the Slavic and Hunnic expansions around 1,500 years ago, while most common ancestors that Italians share with other populations lived longer than 2,500 years ago.


Questo studio sembra fatto apposta per trovare più diversita possibile tra gli Italiani..

“Sapere che l’Italia, è sempre stata ed è tuttora una terra di notevole diversità sia culturale che genetica, può aiutarci ad affrontare in maniera più serena un futuro pieno di occasioni di confronto con i portatori di nuove e diverse identità”.
"Insomma, se ci rendessimo conto di essere già così differenziati tra di noi fin dall’antichità e che questo rappresenta un patrimonio di cultura ed esperienze, l’arrivo di immigrati da altri paesi non dovrebbe sconvolgerci più di tanto."

Cécile Kyenge :rolleyes:

[Ianus]

In my opinion for this mosaic effect we need many more genetic samples from Italy, all the autosomal maps of Pontikos-Lazzaridis lack of credibility for this reason.


:thumb001:

[MINARDOWICZ]

Sicilians look to have about 15% SW Asian on average. This seems to be the only real difference. Their other components seem to be on par with other Southern Europeans. They seem to have twice as much as Tuscany that has twice as much as Bergamo:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

I have a question regarding this all... if it is 15% then what is it for actual Levantines? Because, looking at the percentages, they score a HIGH score of East Med... which I guarantee you is not completely European in origin (LOL). If it is fully european, that means Lebanese etc. are only like barely over half middle eastern. That doesn't make any sense.

I doubt the entire "East Med" score is middle eastern though, buuuut I bet part of it is.

[Black Wolf]

Yes, but look back to the study I posted, or here it is again, look at the Albanian sample and the Sicilian sample:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

Can you give a link for this study please? The whole study that is.

[Sikeliot]

Albanians are almost identical to Greeks in that study. So it looks like without the SW Asian and North African, Sicilians would be closer to mainstream Greeks.

What is obvious now to me is that Sicilians have very little input from the Elymians, Sicanians, and Sikels. Eastern Sicily, which was where the Sikels are from, have the lowest amount of R1b and other haplogroups common to the most "Italic" parts of Italy, and DNA-wise are very close to Greeks. Central Sicily, which was Sicanian land, does not have anything different genetically from coastal eastern Sicily (in the case of Enna) and Palermo (in the case of Caltanissetta). There is no signal of Iberian DNA either, which is a proposed origin for the Sicanians. But most importantly, far western Sicily has lower affinity to the Caucasus, discrediting the idea that the Elymians had a large impact. They instead have more North African and SW Asian.

So either these populations were not who we think, or their impact was low. Personally I think MOST Sicilian genes are from the Phoenician era and onward.

[Ulla]

Questo studio sembra fatto apposta per trovare più diversita possibile tra gli Italiani..

“Sapere che l’Italia, è sempre stata ed è tuttora una terra di notevole diversità sia culturale che genetica, può aiutarci ad affrontare in maniera più serena un futuro pieno di occasioni di confronto con i portatori di nuove e diverse identità”.
"Insomma, se ci rendessimo conto di essere già così differenziati tra di noi fin dall’antichità e che questo rappresenta un patrimonio di cultura ed esperienze, l’arrivo di immigrati da altri paesi non dovrebbe sconvolgerci più di tanto."

Cécile Kyenge :rolleyes:

E' possibile che risponda a istanze ideologiche. D'altronde anche la ricerca scientifica, e non solo in Italia, è spesso il grimaldello della politica.

[alfieb]

Albanians are almost identical to Greeks in that study. So it looks like without the SW Asian and North African, Sicilians would be closer to mainstream Greeks.

What is obvious now to me is that Sicilians have very little input from the Elymians, Sicanians, and Sikels. Eastern Sicily, which was where the Sikels are from, have the lowest amount of R1b and other haplogroups common to the most "Italic" parts of Italy, and DNA-wise are very close to Greeks. Central Sicily, which was Sicanian land, does not have anything different genetically from coastal eastern Sicily (in the case of Enna) and Palermo (in the case of Caltanissetta). There is no signal of Iberian DNA either, which is a proposed origin for the Sicanians. But most importantly, far western Sicily has lower affinity to the Caucasus, discrediting the idea that the Elymians had a large impact. They instead have more North African and SW Asian.

So either these populations were not who we think, or their impact was low. Personally I think MOST Sicilian genes are from the Phoenician era and onward.

This is a Y-DNA study. When military conquest and colonization occurs, the indigenous people can usually be detected easier in terms of DNA by looking at mitochondrial ancestry. Look at Caribbean countries for this effect. You'll find a lot more people with paternal European haplogroups than maternal ones.

I would imagine that Elymian, Sican, and Sicel ancestry would be primarily through females, like Amerindians and African slaves in the New World, or like Iceland, where the average person is 1/3 Gaelic in origin, but exclusively through female ancestry.

That's why I considered my own results to be so fascinating, as my mtDNA is Germanic, not indigenous.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Here is the thing I'm wondering... why do S Italians have such high west asian (not just SW but general west I mean)? I know some is Neolithic, but wouldn't some of it be from Anatolia from more recent times?

[Sikeliot]

This is a Y-DNA study. When military conquest and colonization occurs, the indigenous people can usually be detected easier in terms of DNA by looking at mitochondrial ancestry. Look at Caribbean countries for this effect. You'll find a lot more people with paternal European haplogroups than maternal ones.

I would imagine that Elymian, Sican, and Sicel ancestry would be primarily through females, like Amerindians and African slaves in the New World, or like Iceland, where the average person is 1/3 Gaelic in origin, but exclusively through female ancestry.


But autosomally, there is little evidence of their influence. We don't see inflated affinity to the Caucasus in far western Sicily -- we see higher recent MENA (SW Asian and NW African), and higher Western European, coming at the expense of Sardinian-like Med genes and Caucasus. In central Sicily we see Enna going the way of the east coast (basically a Caucasus-Med population with little outside influence, similar to Greek islanders), and Caltanissetta going the way of Palermo -- I see no evidence of Iberian or anything distinguishable as Italic.

So with all of that, I don't know that we see what we are supposed to and as such, I would have to reject the notion that there is a three-way genetic divide corresponding to the pre-Greek, pre-Phoenician inhabitants.

[Sikeliot]

Here is the thing I'm wondering... why do S Italians have such high west asian (not just SW but general west I mean)? I know some is Neolithic, but wouldn't some of it be from Anatolia from more recent times?

I don't know that it could be recent, considering it is highest in the most isolated areas (eastern Sicily, Enna, Calabria).

[Ulla]

Can you give a link for this study please? The whole study that is.

Iosif Lazaridis 2013 (probably real name of blogger Diekenes Pontikos) a computer scientist that works in a genetic dep. of Harvard.
The study is based mostly on previous genetic studies and in my opinion has too small samples.

[MINARDOWICZ]

I don't know that it could be recent, considering it is highest in the most isolated areas (eastern Sicily, Enna, Calabria).

I just don't know. How on earth did they retain so much Neolithic after all this time? What were some known groups from Anatolia and the Caucasus that came through? I guess it has to be Neolithic, but it is still weird how much they have.

[Volscian]

Questo studio sembra fatto apposta per trovare più diversita possibile tra gli Italiani..

“Sapere che l’Italia, è sempre stata ed è tuttora una terra di notevole diversità sia culturale che genetica, può aiutarci ad affrontare in maniera più serena un futuro pieno di occasioni di confronto con i portatori di nuove e diverse identità”.
"Insomma, se ci rendessimo conto di essere già così differenziati tra di noi fin dall’antichità e che questo rappresenta un patrimonio di cultura ed esperienze, l’arrivo di immigrati da altri paesi non dovrebbe sconvolgerci più di tanto."

Cécile Kyenge :rolleyes:

Ci mancava solo la Kyenge...:)
Io non so se questo studio ha avuto un impulso politico o meno, ma non è credibile uno fatto solo contando sul MtDNA. Se volevano trovare ancora più diversità potevano farlo sul Y DNA...:)

[Sikeliot]

I just don't know. How on earth did they retain so much Neolithic after all this time? What were some known groups from Anatolia and the Caucasus that came through? I guess it has to be Neolithic, but it is still weird how much they have.

I honestly don't know. What evades me is why even Greek islanders have as much North European as do Sicilians, and some Sicilians have less, let alone what mainland Greeks score. It was surprising to me when I first saw the genetic results.

[Conte Mascetti]

I am not surprised. Far northern Italians are genetically similar to Spanish and French, while people at the very far south like Calabria and Sicily are like a more European version of Cyprus. That is opposite ends of the Mediterranean all in one peninsula.

LOL.

[Tooting Carmen]

LOL.

Why?

[Conte Mascetti]

Why?
It's funny how he always compares northern Italians with Spaniards, as if Spaniards aren't heterogeneous and Andalusians look like Lombards.

[Tooting Carmen]

It's funny how he always compares northern Italians with Spaniards, as if Spaniards aren't heterogeneous and Andalusians look like Lombards.

Actually, Spain is genetically fairly uniform, once you exclude Canarians and Basques.

[Conte Mascetti]

Actually, Spain is genetically fairly uniform, once you exclude Canarians and Basques.
Genetically how?
Looking at R1b haplogroup which is Indo-European but it's the primary Y-DNA haplogroup among Basques?
Looking at Northwest European admixture which is ridiculously the same as the one in Finland?
Northern Italians are genetically similar to Andalusians? Go on, dude...

[Black Wolf]

I just don't know. How on earth did they retain so much Neolithic after all this time? What were some known groups from Anatolia and the Caucasus that came through? I guess it has to be Neolithic, but it is still weird how much they have.

Some of the West Asian in Southern Italy is Neolithic and some is from post-Neolithic migrations. People did not just stop moving around after fatming came about. West Asian gene flow continued into Southrn Italy and the Balkans right up until historical times.

[Black Wolf]

Iosif Lazaridis 2013 (probably real name of blogger Diekenes Pontikos) a computer scientist that works in a genetic dep. of Harvard.
The study is based mostly on previous genetic studies and in my opinion has too small samples.

Do you have a link for that study?

[LightHouse89]

Thank the Romans.

Also the Arab invasions which to me caused more of this.

[Ulla]

Do you have a link for that study?

On Biorxiv. Not published on scientific journals yet.

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2014/04/05/001552

[alfieb]

Also the Arab invasions which to me caused more of this.

You're rather ignorant.

Arab invasions effected the Sicilian genepool.

What this study shows is that from town to town throughout Italy, people in one village may have very different DNA from people in the next village. Has little to do with the mixed nature of people in Sicily.

[Ulla]

What this study shows is that from town to town throughout Italy, people in one village may have very different DNA from people in the next village. Has little to do with the mixed nature of people in Sicily.

:thumb001:

[Arch Hades]

The North-South German differences are nearly as large..about 85-90% the difference of the Italian differences.

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/990/northsouth.png

[Arch Hades]

The Arab-Moor invasions only account for about 3% total admixture in Sicily. That's not very much.

[LightHouse89]

You're rather ignorant.

Arab invasions effected the Sicilian genepool.

What this study shows is that from town to town throughout Italy, people in one village may have very different DNA from people in the next village. Has little to do with the mixed nature of people in Sicily.

In correct southern italy as well. The only unraped part was apart of the Holy Roman Empire created by Frankish war lords. The same subhuman northern europeans I guess.....meanwhile in the Arab Emirate of Sicily.

[Arch Hades]

"The presence or absence of genetic heterogeneity in Sicily has long been debated. Through the analysis of the variation of Y-chromosome lineages, using the combination of haplogroups and short tandem repeats from several areas of Sicily, we show that traces of genetic flows occurred in the island, due to ancient Greek colonization and to northern African contributions, are still visible on the basis of the distribution of some lineages. The genetic contribution of Greek chromosomes to the Sicilian gene pool is estimated to be about 37% whereas the contribution of North African populations is estimated to be around 6%."

So yeah, it's not that much. 6% on the paternal side and you'd have to halve that to get total admixture.

SOURCE : Piazza, A, G*****ini, Matullo et al. (January 2009), "Differential Greek and northern African migrations to Sicily are supported by genetic evidence from the Y chromosome", European Journal of Human Genetics 17 (1): 91--9.
Link - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/

[alfieb]

In correct southern italy as well. The only unraped part was apart of the Holy Roman Empire created by Frankish war lords. The same subhuman northern europeans I guess.....meanwhile in the Arab Emirate of Sicily.

Uh, they conquered the Bari area, not even all of Puglia, for twenty years. That doesn't count as "causing more of this".

Much of Southern Italy was still Greek at this point, fool.

[Isleño]

Some of the West Asian in Southern Italy is Neolithic and some is from post-Neolithic migrations. People did not just stop moving around after fatming came about. West Asian gene flow continued into Southrn Italy and the Balkans right up until historical times.Caucasian gene flow into Europe is mainly ancient. It's found in significant percentages in near all Europeans. It's higher in the Balkans and Italy yes, even Eastern Europe, as they did have some extra migration into historic times. But they don't have that much more than what you see in other European populations.

[LightHouse89]

Uh, they conquered the Bari area, not even all of Puglia, for twenty years. That doesn't count as "causing more of this".

Much of Southern Italy was still Greek at this point, fool.

http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/sicilians-have-10-sub-saharan-african-dna/ -how did that happen? who can explain for modern Afro-Arab DNA in southern italians?

[Isleño]

Do you have a link for that study?

I have the link :)

If you can't find it, I'll give it to you...I gotta go looking in my files :(

[LightHouse89]

Caucasian gene flow into Europe is mainly ancient. It's found in significant percentages in near all Europeans. It's higher in the Balkans and Italy yes, even Eastern Europe, as they did have some extra migration into historic times. But they don't have that much more than what you see in other European populations.

Eastern Europe and the Balts is where the oldest European DNA is found. Western europeans have some west asian in them but not much....some of it comes from the Caucasus area from the sarmatians a Indo European people. Some also comes before that from paleolithic peoples.

[Isleño]

Iosif Lazaridis 2013 (probably real name of blogger Diekenes Pontikos) a computer scientist that works in a genetic dep. of Harvard.
The study is based mostly on previous genetic studies and in my opinion has too small samples.I think it's a good study and there's a lot of work done by Lazaridis and his team besides just being based on previous studies. They blend both findings from previous studies as well as new findings and work, also give admixture runs. It's the most recent also.

[Isleño]

Eastern Europe and the Balts is where the oldest European DNA is found. Western europeans have some west asian in them but not much....some of it comes from the Caucasus area from the sarmatians a Indo European people. Some also comes before that from paleolithic peoples. Yes of course, it's mainly ancient. But also, don't be fooled, western Europeans have significant Caucasian admixture also.

[Arch Hades]

http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/sicilians-have-10-sub-saharan-african-dna/ -how did that happen? who can explain for modern Afro-Arab DNA in southern italians?

That's based on outdated bloodgroup data.

[Isleño]

http://ethnicgenome.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/sicilians-have-10-sub-saharan-african-dna/ -how did that happen? who can explain for modern Afro-Arab DNA in southern italians?

Sicilians don't have 10% SSA, that's a fairytale. Sicilians have the same three main components found in near all European: Mesolithic Euro, Neolithic Med, and Cauco-Perso-Gedrosian. They only have two extra components that are not found in all Europeans, but is in some: SW Asian and North African. They have about the same amount of North African as Iberians and just a little more SW Asian as Greeks. But they are still within the European cluster. It's not like the admixture is huge.

[LostInParadise]

I saw a documentary about maradona, he played in "Napoli" a team from south italia, apparently.
And he said that, the rest of Italy hated them, and called them "africans" so when napoli won a championship, it was like a revenge to the rich northern, something like that.
Also, when Argentina play in the world cup, he asked to the neapolitans to support argentina, because italy never supported napoli, so why must they cheer for italy? and finally they did, and then when argentina play the final in other city, all the italians where against argentina jaja. Cool history.
ah, a journalist also said that, maradona was just like napoli, because he was short, dark and funny, ajaj.

[alfieb]

I saw a documentary about maradona, he played in "Napoli" a team from south italia, apparently.
And he said that, the rest of Italy hated them, and called them "africans" so when napoli won a championship, it was like a revenge to the rich northern, something like that.
Also, when Argentina play in the world cup, he asked to the neapolitans to support argentina, because italy never supported napoli, so why must they cheer for italy? and finally they did, and then when argentina play the final in other city, all the italians where against argentina jaja. Cool history.
ah, a journalist also said that, maradona was just like napoli, because he was short, dark and funny, ajaj.

No-one in Italy likes Neapolitans. Even Sicilians don't like Neapolitans, and Sicilians gladly root for the Italian national team and Juventus, a team from Piemonte, and AC Milan, a team from Lombardia.

[LightHouse89]

That's based on outdated bloodgroup data.

:rolleyes: most sicilians seem closer to arabs....afew here ave even said they wouldnt mind living under sharia law and an islamic government.

[Elsa]

:rolleyes: most sicilians seem closer to arabs....afew here ave even said they wouldnt mind living under sharia law and an islamic government.

I doubt that. Sicilians are a uniformly Catholic group.

[Sikeliot]

:rolleyes: most sicilians seem closer to arabs....afew here ave even said they wouldnt mind living under sharia law and an islamic government.

They were probably joking.

[alfieb]

I doubt that. Sicilians are a uniformly Catholic group.

Yep. Even the Albanian Sicilians, who came to Sicily 500 years ago, had to abandon Orthodoxy and become Catholics.

You can practically count the Orthodox, Muslims, and Jews in Sicily on one hand (rhetorically, not literally).

[Tooting Carmen]

Yep. Even the Albanian Sicilians, who came to Sicily 500 years ago, had to abandon Orthodoxy and become Catholics.

You can practically count the Orthodox, Muslims, and Jews in Sicily on one hand (rhetorically, not literally).

What about all the immigrants from North Africa who've arrived over the last ten years? Surely they have increased the number of Muslims in Sicily by a lot, haven't they?

[Black Wolf]

I think it's a good study and there's a lot of work done by Lazaridis and his team besides just being based on previous studies. They blend both findings from previous studies as well as new findings and work, also give admixture runs. It's the most recent also.

I wish we had an ADMIXTURE calculator with the components from this study in it.

[Isleño]

I wish we had an ADMIXTURE calculator with the components from this study in it.

He did K runs using the ADMIXTURE software including a world K=20:

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2013/12/23/001552.DC1/001552-2.pdf

[alfieb]

What about all the immigrants from North Africa who've arrived over the last ten years? Surely they have increased the number of Muslims in Sicily by a lot, haven't they?
They're only living in a few towns. I haven't been back to Sicily since 2007, but it was mostly contained to the Mazara area of Southern Trapani.

[LostInParadise]

No-one in Italy likes Neapolitans. Even Sicilians don't like Neapolitans, and Sicilians gladly root for the Italian national team and Juventus, a team from Piemonte, and AC Milan, a team from Lombardia.

Why?
because they are mafiosos?

[Ulla]

I think it's a good study and there's a lot of work done by Lazaridis and his team besides just being based on previous studies. They blend both findings from previous studies as well as new findings and work, also give admixture runs. It's the most recent also.

Lazaridis isn't a population geneticist, he is a computer scientist that just uses the works of others. In the previous K=* autosomal admixtures the average for each population were 10/12 samples. If Italian population is indeed a mosaic, 10/20 samples aren't enough.

[Ianus]

The Arab-Moor invasions only account for about 3% total admixture in Sicily. That's not very much.

And after the Norman conquest Muslim emigrated or were expelled, aand there was a migration from Northen Italy peoples.

[alfieb]

And after the Norman conquest Muslim emigrated or were expelled, aand there was a migration from Northen Italy peoples.
Yes and no.

Norman conquest = mid 1000s
Muslims who hadn't converted were kicked out of Sicily = early 1200s

There was almost 200 years between them.

[Ianus]

Yes and no.

Norman conquest = mid 1000s
Muslims who hadn't converted were kicked out of Sicily = early 1200s

There was almost 200 years between them.

Norman conquest 1060-1091

Muslim kicked out 1200-1250

[Smeagol]

I have a question regarding this all... if it is 15% then what is it for actual Levantines? Because, looking at the percentages, they score a HIGH score of East Med... which I guarantee you is not completely European in origin (LOL). If it is fully european, that means Lebanese etc. are only like barely over half middle eastern. That doesn't make any sense.

I doubt the entire "East Med" score is middle eastern though, buuuut I bet part of it is.

All of the "East Med" component is Middle Eastern in origin. Probably it mostly dates back to the Neolithic Farmers though.

[Tacitus]

Why?
because they are mafiosos?

Because it's a shithole full of thieves and heroin addicts.

/outdated stereotypes

I like my Neapolitan friends but I don't like Naples. :dunno:

[alfieb]

Because it's a shithole full of thieves and heroin addicts.

/outdated stereotypes

I like my Neapolitan friends but I don't like Naples. :dunno:

Judging from your username, you are Calabrese?

[LostInParadise]

I found this picture, as excample of "mediterranean" a napolitan family:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_aMdExL0V3ng/TDeBO844fFI/AAAAAAAAAhs/kE3fu9IIqy4/s1600/Naples+Florida+Family+Time+during+Evening+on+Fifth .jpg

I think they look indeed, very mediterranean. And very bella Italia.

[Tacitus]

Judging from your username, you are Calabrese?

Calabrese and Sicilian on my father's side, Campania (NOT Naples obvs) and Lazio on my mother's.

[TCDA1986]

http://www.lanazione.it/pisa/cronaca/2014/01/15/1010385-italiani_primi_europa_varieta_genetica_ricerca_par la_anche_pisano.shtml

A study conducted by Sergio Tofanelli, researcher at the University of Pisa, and his team for a study financed by the National Geographic Society and the universities of Bologna, Pisa, Cagliari and Roma, has concluded that Italians are the people of Europe with the highest inner genetic difference.

A news is that the biggest genetic difference is not the north-south division. These differences appear as dots along the peninsula and even on the isles and are probably due both to preistoric migrations and storic invasions/migrations.

Analizying just the maternal line of Italians, it shows that the genetic diversity of the inhabitants of the peninsula is 30 times higher compared to that of the Portuguese and Hungarians.

http://m.repubblica.it/mobile/r/wrap/scienze/2014/01/09/news/italiani_popolo_pi_ricco_di_diversit_genetica_in_e uropa-75495329/?gx=e1s1

Italians are a true genetic melting pot. Contributions to this genetics have arrived from multifarious communities that during history have colonized, invaded or settled Italy, from the germanic communities in the north, to the Greek and Arbereshe linguistic isles in the south, from the Sardinians to the ancient populations of Italy.

Surprisingly, researchers have prooved that there is more genetic difference between an inhabitant of Sappada and an inhabitant of the near area than between a Spaniard and a Romanian.

Destro Bisol, an anthropologist involved in the project, concluded with this phrase:

"This research should make us wonder about razism and xenophoby. As a people we have reached big results thank to our inner difference, thank to the fact that we have continued to mix for a very long period. We catch the occasion to rememeber that a proof of these migrations are the 12 linguistic minorities, like the Arbereshe of southern Italy and the Croats in Molise, that still today are protected by our law."

(Sorry for the translation, I tried to translated the main concepts as the articles are in Italian)

I believe it's healthy, genetic diversity leads to intelligence, creativity, and beautiful women (I won't comment on the men in case someone on here gets the wrong idea).

I might receive some hatin' for this, but it's just an opinion. Italy, Lebanon, Argentina, Israel (not commenting on the policy of the state lol), even Australia and the US when compared to most of Europe.

[alfieb]

Calabrese and Sicilian on my father's side, Campania (NOT Naples obvs) and Lazio on my mother's.

Gotcha. Figured as such, with Jeraci being the Sicilian-language [and Calabrese dialect] spelling for the town of Gerace.

[Tacitus]

Gotcha. Figured as such, with Jeraci being the Sicilian-language [and Calabrese dialect] spelling for the town of Gerace.

Exactly. Both come from the Greek word for hawk (ierax/geraki).

[LightHouse89]

Yes and no.

Norman conquest = mid 1000s
Muslims who hadn't converted were kicked out of Sicily = early 1200s

There was almost 200 years between them.

Ah yes then my Norman ancestors raped and pillaged Arab Sicily. :cool:

But yes before they came there was alot of mixing between Arabs and converted Sicilians to Islam.

[Insuperable]

Lazaridis isn't a population geneticist, he is a computer scientist that just uses the works of others. In the previous K=* autosomal admixtures the average for each population were 10/12 samples. If Italian population is indeed a mosaic, 10/20 samples aren't enough.

:picard2:

Just because he is the first author and the paper starts with his name doesn't mean that you should address only to him. He was a part of a larger group probably led by David Reich or somebody else and the group probably needs a computer scientist guy.
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552

[Isleño]

I wish we had an ADMIXTURE calculator with the components from this study in it.

Here's a breakdown of the Euro K=20 runs:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

[Ulla]

:picard2:

Just because he is the first author and the paper starts with his name doesn't mean that you should address only to him. He was a part of a larger group probably led by David Reich or somebody else and the group probably needs a computer scientist guy.
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552

The study isn't still published on scientific journals.

Do you know why?

[alfieb]

The study isn't still published on scientific journals.

Do you know why?

Not peer reviewed yet?

[Black Wolf]

Here's a breakdown of the Euro K=20 runs:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

I wish I knew how to make a calculator like this. I am no good with certain things like this on computers lol. I think it would be rather informative for all of us to have a calculator like this.

[Ulla]

Not peer reviewed yet?

Yes.

If there was a larger group led by David Reich, it would be very strange.

Here is Iosif Lazaridis before he joined Harvard medical school

http://www.cspandasearch.net/scholar/Iosif_Lazaridis.html



Iosif Lazaridis
Research Fellow
Boston, Massachusetts

Education/degrees
University of California, Irvine - Ph.D. , Information and Computer Science
January 1999 - December 2006
University of California, Irvine - Master of Science (M.S.) , Information and Computer Science
January 1999 - December 2002
National Technical University of Athens - Diploma in Engineering , Electrical and Computer Engineering
January 1993 - December 1999

[Ulla]

And after the Norman conquest Muslim emigrated or were expelled, aand there was a migration from Northen Italy peoples.

There were also the "Lombard pogroms" around 1160.

"Roger Sclavus led Lombard rebels to massacre Muslims inhabitants".

http://books.google.it/books?id=pXXYfJ9woRwC&pg=PA220

[alfieb]

Roger Sclavus
smh. a slav leading a germanic army in killing arabs in italy.

Too multicultural.

[Insuperable]

The study isn't still published on scientific journals.

Do you know why?

Some papers waited years for a review by scientific community.

[Ulla]

smh. a slav leading a germanic army in killing arabs in italy.

Too multicultural.

Indeed.

Lombards in this case weren't anymore the Germanic people but the Northern Italians settled in Sicily.

Roger Sclavus was the illegitimate son of Simone del Vasto and of a slave woman (a slav?).

Simone Del Vasto was at that time the Count of the Lombards of Sicily (comites Lombardorum). He was a Lombard noble from Piedmont of Frankish origin and by his maternal line he was of Norman origin (his mother was Flandina de Hauteville, daughter of Roger I of Sicily).

[alfieb]

Indeed.

Lombards in this case weren't anymore the Germanic people but the Northern Italians settled in Sicily.

Roger Sclavus was the illegitimate son of Simone del Vasto and of a slave woman (a slav?).

Simone Del Vasto was at that time the Count of the Lombards of Sicily (comites Lombardorum). He was a Lombard noble from Piedmont of Frankish origin and by his maternal line he was of Norman origin (his mother was Flandina de Hauteville, daughter of Roger I of Sicily).

Flandina was illegitimate.

Still worth a bit, I suppose, considering her half-brother became King in 1130.

[LightHouse89]

smh. a slav leading a germanic army in killing arabs in italy.

Too multicultural.

[Ulla]

Flandina was illegitimate.

Interesting.

According to Italian sources she was the son of Roger and Giuditta d'Evreux, a Norman noble and first wife of Roger.

[alfieb]

Interesting.

According to Italian sources she was the son of Roger and Giuditta d'Evreux, a Norman noble and first wife of Roger.

http://genealogy.euweb.cz/italy/hautvle.html

His sources are pretty decent. http://genealogy.euweb.cz/note/source.html

It's possible that she wasn't a bastard, just going off of that.

[Sikeliot]

And after the Norman conquest Muslim emigrated or were expelled, aand there was a migration from Northen Italy peoples.

Well, most of the Muslims were converted natives, not actual Arabs or Berbers... and there is not much North Italian admixture in Sicily except for the Lombard towns.

[Sikeliot]

Exactly. Both come from the Greek word for hawk (ierax/geraki).

And the surname Geraci comes from there too.

[RenaRyuguu]

bump