Nikolaus Kopernikus Was a German

[Franz]

The identification of Copernicus was made possible by typing DNA from hair found in a book he owned and matching it with DNA from his putative remains.

Copernicus belonged to mtDNA haplogroup H:

In addition to the hypervariable region analysis, 16 haplogroup informative SNP positions were examined (709G, 1719G, 1811A, 3010G, 6365T, 6776T, 7028C, 8251G, 8697G, 9055G,11251A, 12372G, 13708G, 14766C, 14798T, and 15904C). Analysis of these haplogroup informative mtDNA polymorphisms indicates that the examined individual belongs to haplogroup H, which is the most frequent of the 6 European-specific haplogroups.

His Y-STR haplotype was also determined:

Male sex was further confirmed by the analysis of 16 STR loci located on Y chromosome included in the Yfiler amplification kit (Applied Biosystems): DYS456– 16; DYS389I– 13; DYS390– 23; DYS389II– 29; DYS458– 19; DYS19– 14; DYS385– 11, 13; DYS393– 13; DYS391– 11; DYS439– 12; DYS635– 23; DYS392–13; Y GATA H4– 12; DYS437– 15; DYS438– 12; DYS448– 19.

...

In the case of the paternal lineage, the search of the YHRD Y chromosome population database (19) did not reveal the haplotype found in the examined human remains among the 2,595 complete haplotypes comprising the Eurasian metapopulation
and among all of the 10,243 complete haplotypes included in the database originating from all over the world. The YHRD database size varies significantly based on the number and character of loci that are included in the search profile. By limiting their
number to the core set called the minimal haplotype (most often analyzed Y-STR loci) the searchable data in the YHRD database were significantly extended, giving the total number of 63,369 haplotypes. In this larger dataset, a minimal Y-chromosomal haplotype, derived from the putative Copernicus remains, was present 47 times, 44 times in a European metapopulation consisting of 31,762 minimal Y-chromosome haplotypes. The same haplotype has been found in individuals from many countries, including Austria, Germany, Poland, and the Czech Republic.

Copernicus' haplotype places him almost certainly in haplogroup R1b. While this haplogroup has a very wide distribution, it is the case that it is one of the haplogroups which differentiate Germans from Poles (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/06/strong-differentiation-between-germans.html). So, while this is insufficient to ascertain the ethnic origin of Copernicus' patrilineage, it certainly suggests a higher probability for it being of ethnic German rather than Polish origin.

The researchers also estimated the astronomer's eye color:

Analysis of the SNP position located in the HERC2 revealed the homozygous C/C genotype, which is the predominant genotype among blue or gray-eyed humans (≈80%). This genotype is rare among people with dark iris coloration (8, 20, 21). The result indicates that Copernicus might have had light iris color, a finding that is rather unexpected given that he is usually shown in portraits with dark eyes. Nevertheless, it is difficult to unambiguously interpret this finding because, although it is significantly less probable, the genotype C/C in rs12913832 can be associated with dark (but not brown/black) irises.

The frequency of blue eyes for the C/C genotype is from a recent study by Polish researchers, so the odds are fairly good that the inference of a non-dark eyed phenotype for Copernicus is genuine.

UPDATE: The Spittoon's coverage of this study erroneously claims that Copernicus:

is best known for being the first to propose that the Earth circles the sun, and not the other way around.

In fact, the first to propose the heliocentric theory was Aristarchus of Samos, a 4th c. BC Greek astronomer, 18 centuries before Copernicus.

PNAS doi:10.1073/pnas.0901848106

Genetic identification of putative remains of the famous astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus

Wiesław Bogdanowicz et al.

Abstract

We report the results of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA analyses of skeletal remains exhumed in 2005 at Frombork Cathedral in Poland, that are thought to be those of Nicolaus Copernicus (1473–1543). The analyzed bone remains were found close to the altar Nicolaus Copernicus was responsible for during his tenure as priest. The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) profiles from 3 upper molars and the femurs were identical, suggesting that the remains originate from the same individual. Identical mtDNA profiles were also determined in 2 hairs discovered in a calendar now exhibited at Museum Gustavianum in Uppsala, Sweden. This calendar was the property of Nicolaus Copernicus for much of his life. These findings, together with anthropological data, support the identification of the human remains found in Frombork Cathedral as those of Nicolaus Copernicus. Up-to-now the particular mtDNA haplotype has been observed only 3 times in Germany and once in Denmark. Moreover, Y-chromosomal and autosomal short tandem repeat markers were analyzed in one of the tooth samples, that was much better preserved than other parts of the skeleton. Molecular sex determination revealed that the skeleton is from a male individual, and this result is consistent with morphological investigations. The minimal Y-chromosomal haplotype determined in the putative remains of Nicolaus Copernicus has been observed previously in many countries, including Austria, Germany, Poland, and the Czech Republic. Finally, an analysis of the SNP located in the HERC2 gene revealed the C/C genotype that is predominant in blue-eyed humans, suggesting that Copernicus may have had a light iris color.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/07/06/0901848106.abstract

[Svipdag]

Niclas Koppernigk, or Mikolai Kopernik, or Nicolaus Copernicus was born in Torun in the Kingdom of Poland. Therefore, regardless of his genetics, he was Polish. His father, of the same name, was also born in Poland. How much more Polish does he need to be ?

[Franz]

Niclas Koppernigk, or Mikolai Kopernik, or Nicolaus Copernicus was born in Torun in the Kingdom of Poland.
His surname was Kopperlingk. He signed with this name. It’s customary for Germans to use occupations and towns for their surnames. His father’s business was in copper. In Low German, copper is “Kopper”. The –lingk meant someone who worked with copper.


Therefore, regardless of his genetics, he was Polish. His father, of the same name, was also born in Poland. How much more Polish does he need to be ?

Going by this logic which is a fallacy by itself, a child born in Japan to European parents is Japanese.

[Zyklop]

Niclas Koppernigk, or Mikolai Kopernik, or Nicolaus Copernicus was born in Torun in the Kingdom of Poland. Therefore, regardless of his genetics, he was Polish. His father, of the same name, was also born in Poland. How much more Polish does he need to be ?Thorn temporarily was subject to the Polish crown, that's all. Thorn was a Prussian city nonetheless and there is no single evidence Copernicus even spoke Polish. All his works and letters are written either in Latin or German. He also joined a German student corps while studying in Bologna (Natio Germanica Bononiae).
Poles see it as proof of his Polish origins that he disliked the Teutonic Order but every single biography blames this on his grandfather on his mother's side who was undoubtedly German. During the war between Poland and the Order they sided with the Prussian confederation against the Order.

[Ariets]

Actually he was polonised and remained culturally Polish, more, he even gave his honor and loyalty for the Polish crown (of Sigmund I the Old), so no matter if you like it or not, he was Polish.

Thorn temporarily was subject to the Polish crown, that's all. Thorn was a Prussian city nonetheless and there is no single evidence Copernicus even spoke Polish. All his works and letters are written either in Latin or German. He also joined a German student corps while studying in Bologna (Natio Germanica Bononiae).
Poles see it as proof of his Polish origins that he disliked the Teutonic Order but every single biography blames this on his uncle on his mother's side who was undoubtedly German. During the war between Poland and the Order they sided with the Prussian confederation against the Order.Keep dreaming dude.
:coffee:

[Jarl]

His mother was German for sure. His maternal uncle was Watzelrode. But wasn't his father from Silesian Poles, from Koperniki?

However his father was apparently a Cracovian merchant.


Thorn temporarily was subject to the Polish crown, that's all. Thorn was a Prussian city nonetheless and there is no single evidence Copernicus even spoke Polish.

No. Thorn was a part of the Kingdom of Poland since the second peace of Thorn:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Peace_of_Thorn_(1466)

Since 1466 until 1772. The nobility and German burghers established the Eidechsenbund and then the Prussian bund against the Teutonic Knights. They fought on the side of Poland and defeated the Teutonic Order in the 13-years war (1444-1466).

Kopernik spoke German. That is correct. Its unknown whether he spoke Polish. It is possible he did not speak it at all. However his allegiance was to the Crown of Poland, for which he fought against the Teutons.


All his works and letters are written either in Latin or German. He also joined a German student corps while studying in Bologna (Natio Germanica Bononiae).
Poles see it as proof of his Polish origins that he disliked the Teutonic Order but every single biography blames this on his uncle on his mother's side who was undoubtedly German. During the war between Poland and the Order they sided with the Prussian confederation against the Order.

Indeed! Copernicus defended the castle in Frombork in the last war of Teutonic Order against Poland. Frombork was in Ermland which was then part of Polish Crown (Royal Prussia). Bishops of Ermland in 1466, asked the king of Poland to incorporate their bishopcy into the Crown.



On the last Polish-Teutonic war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Teutonic_War_(1519-1521)

It ended in the defeat of Teutonic Order, which fell into debts and could not pay for its mercenaries. The country was overrun with Polish armies and many cities controlled by the Prussian bund and German burghers opened their gates without resistance. As a result secularisation of Teutonic Order took place and the king appointed Albrecht Hohenzollern, the last Grand Master, as the first secular Duke - a vassal of the Crown. However king wanted Prussia to be Protestant to politically seal it off from the German Emperor.


His surname was Kopperlingk. He signed with this name. It’s customary for Germans to use occupations and towns for their surnames. His father’s business was in copper. In Low German, copper is “Kopper”. The –lingk meant someone who worked with copper.

One theory is that the surname came from the place where Kopernik family could have originated from - the village of Koperniki in Upper Silesia. To the best of my knowledge Copernicus' father traded in canvass. And it was "Koppernigk" not "Kopperlingk". The surname was common in certain family of Cracovian burghers, and Mikolaj was a frequent name in this family too. Perhaps because the patron of the Koperniki parish was St. Nicolaus.

Anyway. Whomever his father's family were - ethnic Germans or a Silesian Poles, Kopernik was no German in the modern meaning of the word. I believe his sense of belonging to a particular state was determined by the reality he was born into. And he was born in the Kindom of Poland, into a family whose allegiance was to the Crown of Poland.

That was simply the reality of multi-ethnic Rzeczpospolita. There were German burghers in all greater Polish cities. These families lived in the country for ages. Many became polonised in the XIX century. There are still many German surnames in the families which descend from the old urban communities. There were people of German origin among the greatest Polish patriots of XIX and XX century.

[Cail]

Not to mention that Prussia itself was not a German land in XVII. Prussians were Balts, and Baltic was spoken there up to early XVIII century, when they finally got assimilated by the colonists.

[Jarl]

It is a pity. Copernicus fell victim to modern nationalism, became a propaganda tool ;)

[Zyklop]

His mother was German for sure. His maternal uncle was Watzelrode. But wasn't his father from Silesian Poles, from Koperniki? A Silesian from Köppernig in correct form.


No. Thorn was a part of the Kingdom of Poland since the second peace of Thorn:
Thorn was founded by the Teutonic Order and settled with Germans from Westphalia and Hanse colonialists. Only centuries later they became Prussians under Polish rule. Even the architecture is German (North-German Backsteingotik). Do you think Warsaw was a German city from 1939-1945 only because it was ruled by Germans?

Since 1466 until 1772. The nobility and German burghers established the Eidechsenbund and then the Prussian bund against the Teutonic Knights. They fought on the side of Poland and defeated the Teutonic Order in the 13-years war (1444-1466).Just like many Germans who opposed the rule of the Order. Such opportunism doesn't change someone's ethnic origin, though. You are right that Copernicus surely didn't see himself as a German in the modern sense. Most likely he identified as a free citizen of Thorn who tried to establish its autonomy from both the Order and the Kingdom of Poland.


Actually he was polonised and remained culturally Polish, more, he even gave his honor and loyalty for the Polish crown (of Sigmund I the Old), so no matter if you like it or not, he was Polish.Ok, so Marie Curie was a Frenchwoman for you then? You'd be the first Pole I see admitting it.

edit: and what does "culturally Polish" mean? Sounds like an oxymoron.

[Jarl]

A Silesian from Köppernig in correct form.

Perhaps. Perhaps Koperniks were Germans too, like the Watzelrodes.


Thorn was founded by the Teutonic Order and settled with Germans from Westphalia and Hanse colonialists. Only centuries later they became Prussians under Polish rule. Even the architecture is German (North-German Backsteingotik). Do you think Warsaw was a German city from 1939-1945 only because it was ruled by Germans?

But I agree. I know and Im proud of German heritage of Polish cities and burgher families. I never denied it.

Its part of our history. Its a fact. Just like that Ziemia Dobrzynska, where Thorn was founed, belonged to the Masovian Piasts and was settled by Poles and occupied by the Teutons.


Just like many Germans who opposed the rule of the Order. Such opportunism doesn't change someone's ethnic origin, though. You are right that Copernicus surely didn't see himself as a German in the modern sense. Most likely he identified as a free citizen of Thorn who tried to establish its autonomy from both the Order and the Kingdom of Poland.

From the Order most certainly. The burghers wanted peace and trade, and low taxes. The Order was an obstacle to their vital interests which lied in the prosperous trade with the Poles.


Ok, so Marie Curie was a Frenchwoman for you then? You'd be the first Pole I see admitting it.

But cut the bullshit and stop implying I said something which I did not. Copernicus could have been a 100% ethnic German. I agree.


edit: and what does "culturally Polish" mean? Sounds like an oxymoron.

Please keep your bizzare German complexes and your hatred away from me. I am really not interested. Let me live and enjoy the forum in relative peace.

[Zyklop]

But cut the bullshit and stop implying I said something which I did not. Copernicus could have been a 100% ethnic German. I agree.

Please keep your bizzare German complexes and your hatred away from me. I am really not interested. Let me live and enjoy the forum in relative peace.I was addressing Ariets.

[Jarl]

I was addressing Ariets.

Which does not change the meaning of your last sentence. I really get an impression some people have serious issues with self-esteem and complexes. You want to feel superior, fine. Keep thinking you're superior. But why to vent it in such a simpleton-like manner and drag the poor, dead Copernicus into the mud?

A study mentioned Copernius' paternal side could have been German - which pretty much does not change anything, and immediately this turns into some hilarious clash of German and Polish nationalism. As if you people wanted to tear him apart. There was a substantial German community in Poland since Medieval Ages, and it was an integral part of the Polish state and society. Born and bred in Poland. Many of their descendants are still here, although polonised. Don't worry noone will snatch them from you. Just like noone will change the fact most of them considered the Kingdom of Poland as their homeland and were loyal to the king.

I just can't get this way of reasnoning. Copernicus may have been German. Be proud of him. You want to use him as a cure for your complexes? You need him to feel good with whom you are? He makes you feel superior? Well that's pretty sad... but so it seems to me after reading some of the posts here... It's no longer about him and his achievements. Its about how you can make a good use of him for your own egoism. How he can be used to make you feel better, superior... funny ;)

[Jarl]

I was addressing Ariets.

You were adressing Ariets?

LOL! Kinda funny... coz Ariets is a Protestant and also descends directly from the Polish Germans, the same Copernicus came from.

[Ariets]

Ok, so Marie Curie was a Frenchwoman for you then? You'd be the first Pole I see admitting it.
"While an actively loyal French citizen, she never lost her sense of Polish identity. "


edit: and what does "culturally Polish" mean? Sounds like an oxymoron.you can google it, but I guess is to hard for a such slow boy like you :coffee:


Many, many Germans (and other nationals) were polonised, so what? They have become Polish, they had identified themself as Polish people, they fought for Poland, they were Polish.

[Zyklop]

Which does not change the meaning of your last sentence. I really get an impression some people have serious issues with self-esteem and complexes. If this wouldn't come from someone who in all seriousness claims Germans would have had plans to exterminate Poles I actually would give your psycho-analysis a second thought.

You were adressing Ariets?

LOL! Kinda funny... coz Ariets is a Protestant and also descends directly from the Polish Germans, the same Copernicus came from.
Which of course has a lot to do with my response to him.. What business of yours is who I'm speaking to anyway if I may ask?

[Jarl]

If this wouldn't come from someone who in all seriousness claims Germans would have had plans to exterminate Poles..

But one cannot expect too much from someone who only bothers to read one-sided propaganda, reads about Bromberg while fails to read about Piasnica Wielka. Same with Ptolemy's Silingi.


Which of course has a lot to do with my response to him.. What business of yours is who I'm speaking to anyway if I may ask?

It does. It's quite ironic you lecture a Pole whose German-burgher ancestors lived here and became polonised, upon inferiority of the Polish culture. It is a free forum. Since you engage in an open discussion here on Poland and its culture, I may and I will comment on whatever I please to.

[Sarmata]

The identification of Copernicus was made possible by typing DNA from hair found in a book he owned and matching it with DNA from his putative remains.

Copernicus belonged to mtDNA haplogroup H:

In addition to the hypervariable region analysis, 16 haplogroup informative SNP positions were examined (709G, 1719G, 1811A, 3010G, 6365T, 6776T, 7028C, 8251G, 8697G, 9055G,11251A, 12372G, 13708G, 14766C, 14798T, and 15904C). Analysis of these haplogroup informative mtDNA polymorphisms indicates that the examined individual belongs to haplogroup H, which is the most frequent of the 6 European-specific haplogroups.

His Y-STR haplotype was also determined:

Male sex was further confirmed by the analysis of 16 STR loci located on Y chromosome included in the Yfiler amplification kit (Applied Biosystems): DYS456– 16; DYS389I– 13; DYS390– 23; DYS389II– 29; DYS458– 19; DYS19– 14; DYS385– 11, 13; DYS393– 13; DYS391– 11; DYS439– 12; DYS635– 23; DYS392–13; Y GATA H4– 12; DYS437– 15; DYS438– 12; DYS448– 19.

...

In the case of the paternal lineage, the search of the YHRD Y chromosome population database (19) did not reveal the haplotype found in the examined human remains among the 2,595 complete haplotypes comprising the Eurasian metapopulation
and among all of the 10,243 complete haplotypes included in the database originating from all over the world. The YHRD database size varies significantly based on the number and character of loci that are included in the search profile. By limiting their
number to the core set called the minimal haplotype (most often analyzed Y-STR loci) the searchable data in the YHRD database were significantly extended, giving the total number of 63,369 haplotypes. In this larger dataset, a minimal Y-chromosomal haplotype, derived from the putative Copernicus remains, was present 47 times, 44 times in a European metapopulation consisting of 31,762 minimal Y-chromosome haplotypes. The same haplotype has been found in individuals from many countries, including Austria, Germany, Poland, and the Czech Republic.

Copernicus' haplotype places him almost certainly in haplogroup R1b. While this haplogroup has a very wide distribution, it is the case that it is one of the haplogroups which differentiate Germans from Poles (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/06/strong-differentiation-between-germans.html). So, while this is insufficient to ascertain the ethnic origin of Copernicus' patrilineage, it certainly suggests a higher probability for it being of ethnic German rather than Polish origin.

The researchers also estimated the astronomer's eye color:

Analysis of the SNP position located in the HERC2 revealed the homozygous C/C genotype, which is the predominant genotype among blue or gray-eyed humans (≈80%). This genotype is rare among people with dark iris coloration (8, 20, 21). The result indicates that Copernicus might have had light iris color, a finding that is rather unexpected given that he is usually shown in portraits with dark eyes. Nevertheless, it is difficult to unambiguously interpret this finding because, although it is significantly less probable, the genotype C/C in rs12913832 can be associated with dark (but not brown/black) irises.

The frequency of blue eyes for the C/C genotype is from a recent study by Polish researchers, so the odds are fairly good that the inference of a non-dark eyed phenotype for Copernicus is genuine.

UPDATE: The Spittoon's coverage of this study erroneously claims that Copernicus:

is best known for being the first to propose that the Earth circles the sun, and not the other way around.

In fact, the first to propose the heliocentric theory was Aristarchus of Samos, a 4th c. BC Greek astronomer, 18 centuries before Copernicus.

PNAS doi:10.1073/pnas.0901848106

Genetic identification of putative remains of the famous astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus

Wiesław Bogdanowicz et al.

Abstract

We report the results of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA analyses of skeletal remains exhumed in 2005 at Frombork Cathedral in Poland, that are thought to be those of Nicolaus Copernicus (1473–1543). The analyzed bone remains were found close to the altar Nicolaus Copernicus was responsible for during his tenure as priest. The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) profiles from 3 upper molars and the femurs were identical, suggesting that the remains originate from the same individual. Identical mtDNA profiles were also determined in 2 hairs discovered in a calendar now exhibited at Museum Gustavianum in Uppsala, Sweden. This calendar was the property of Nicolaus Copernicus for much of his life. These findings, together with anthropological data, support the identification of the human remains found in Frombork Cathedral as those of Nicolaus Copernicus. Up-to-now the particular mtDNA haplotype has been observed only 3 times in Germany and once in Denmark. Moreover, Y-chromosomal and autosomal short tandem repeat markers were analyzed in one of the tooth samples, that was much better preserved than other parts of the skeleton. Molecular sex determination revealed that the skeleton is from a male individual, and this result is consistent with morphological investigations. The minimal Y-chromosomal haplotype determined in the putative remains of Nicolaus Copernicus has been observed previously in many countries, including Austria, Germany, Poland, and the Czech Republic. Finally, an analysis of the SNP located in the HERC2 gene revealed the C/C genotype that is predominant in blue-eyed humans, suggesting that Copernicus may have had a light iris color.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/07/06/0901848106.abstract

Almost make difference, from that I know similar haplotypes could exist in completly different haplogroups. Besides R1b is connected with Celts so to cut this story short Copernikus was Polonized descendant of Germanized Celts:D

[Zyklop]

you can google it, but I guess is to hard for a such slow boy like you :coffee:I just wondered how someone who doesn't even speak Polish can be seen as "culturally Polish". I'm really too slow to google it I fear.

Many, many Germans (and other nationals) were polonised, so what? They have become Polish, they had identified themself as Polish people, they fought for Poland, they were Polish.
Again, where is your evidence that Copernicus identified as Polish? Just by allying with Poles against the Order?

[Ariets]

cut the crap and get life, Im going for beer, so long suckers

[Zyklop]

But one cannot expect too much from someone who only bothers to read one-sided propaganda, reads about Bromberg while fails to read about Piasnica Wielka. Same with Ptolemy's Silingi.
Go post some fake deportation maps and photos of hanged Polish children.

It does. It's quite ironic you lecture a Pole whose German-burgher ancestors lived here and became polonised, upon inferiority of the Polish culture. The official biography of Ariets has yet to catch my interest, until then maybe you can lecture me what makes someone a Pole by culture? Maybe it's this, but I would have expected Vodka instead:
Im going for beer, so long suckers

[Jarl]

Go post some fake deportation maps and photos of hanged Polish children. The official biography of Ariets has yet to catch my interest, until then maybe you can lecture me what makes someone a Pole by culture?


LoL! Whatever... stay with your complexes Zyklop, have a nice day! ;)

[The Black Prince]

:pop2:


Just a question, what does the term 'German' (Deutsch) mean in the late 15th/early 16th century?

[cywil]

[QUOTE=Franz;152337]His surname was Kopperlingk. He signed with this name. It’s customary for Germans to use occupations and towns for their surnames. His father’s business was in copper. In Low German, copper is “Kopper”. The –lingk meant someone who worked with copper.

We do not know if he personally signed himself under this name in Bologna - could have been Italian or German administrator that took down his name? When he signed his works he used Copernicus - a latinized Kopernik. Kopper is a german for copper - true, but -nik is a slavic suffix usually denoting agent noun like in Polish:
cukiernik - pastry baker (from "cukier" - sugar introduced into Polish from German "Zucker" in the middle ages)
sternik - helmsman (from "ster"-rudder)
prawnik - lawyer (from "prawo"-law)
zlotnik - goldsmith (from "zloto" - gold)
sernik - cheesecake (from "ser" - cheese)
pustelnik-hermit (from "pusty" - empty)
pazdziernik - October (from "pazdzierz" - strand -as this was the month when linen and hemp was processed and strands were the waste product)
wziernik - eyhole, speculum (from "wejrzec" - to look into something),
and so on...
Other slavic language example could be Russian: "sputnik" - the traveller - (from "put' " -travel)
It is likely that Kopernik is a Polish last name.
(And by the way, Copernicus father's bussiness was in cloth, not in copper.)

[kwp_wp]

I just want to add that according to that logic "koper" in Polish means dill, so Kopernik's ancestors could have been farmers or vegetable growers
:)

[cywil]

[QUOTE=Zyklop;152450]I just wondered how someone who doesn't even speak Polish can be seen as "culturally Polish". I'm really too slow to google it I fear.

We do not know that he did not speak Polish. We know that he spoke Latin, German and Ancient Greek. We know he had Polish speaking friends and that in Torun where he grew up and in Krakow where he studied he was surrounded by speakers of both German and Polish language. Since he studied in Italy he might have also picked up some Italian. Since the old Prussian language was still spoken in Warmia - Ermland area as late as eighteen century he might have had some understanding of this language as well - from dealing with Prussian speaking peasant tenants while administering the land. (Warmia is most likely an old Prussian name - Prussian being a Baltic language like Lithuanian and Latvian)

[curiousman]

Nationalism is an invention of the ideologies of XIX century, mainly Romanticism. Copernicus lived long before modern nationalism. As somebody has already written, he was a loyal subject of the king of Poland. As a student in Italy he declared himself to belong to the "Natio Germanica" ("German Nation") but this only means that German was the language he spoke in his daily life. It was a common habit in the universities of the Middle Ages to distinguish students not according to their ethnicities but to their languages.

[Osweo]

Was there no Polish club in the Italian university? Seems to me that a man potentially rather 'on the fence' ethnically might join up just for the benefits of belonging to any association, no? It seems to me that he was at least half-German, and could live in that sphere, but also with a foot in the Polish world too. Nothing too amazing for a citizen of the town in question, no?

[curiousman]

Was there no Polish club in the Italian university? Seems to me that a man potentially rather 'on the fence' ethnically might join up just for the benefits of belonging to any association, no? It seems to me that he was at least half-German, and could live in that sphere, but also with a foot in the Polish world too. Nothing too amazing for a citizen of the town in question, no?


I'm not 100% sure but I think that also in Italian Universities existed a "Natio Polonorum" as it existed in universities abroad. Anyway, as already written, the fact that he joined up with the "German club" says only that he spoke German whatever his ethnicity. Probably he was of mixed ethnicity but it would be very wrong to project on him the criteria of the modern nationalism.

[Svarog]

Love these fighting over dead geniuses stuff!

Does it really raise your national pride to convince 50 forum dudes that someone that's not you was of the same nation as you are?

At least what I get, HEY, he was a white European!! kudos for me!!

Blah

[kwp_wp]

Love these fighting over dead geniuses stuff!

Does it really raise your national pride to convince 50 forum dudes that someone that's not you was of the same nation as you are?


No.
Just to keep this thread alive;)

[Svanhild]

Just a question, what does the term 'German' (Deutsch) mean in the late 15th/early 16th century?
Much. :wink It had always a tribal meaning. The term was used as a self-description in the middle ages. Check the minnesänger. Or the Heilige Römische Reich Deutscher Nation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diutisc

[Jarl]

Or the Heilige Römische Reich Deutscher Nation.

I don't think any such nation ever existed, and most certinly it was not designated by "deutsch/diutisc/diets" etc. At that time the Bavarians surely did not feel they were beloging to the same "nation" as the Saxons or the Frisians.

Unless you also argue that Proto-Indo-European *teuta, was a reflection of a sense of belonging to the "Proto-Indo-European nation", or Slowianin, to some great "Pan-Slavic nation" ;)

[Zyklop]

I don't think any such nation ever existed, and most certinly it was not designated by "deutsch/diutisc/diets" etc. Ever heard of the 'Kingdom of Germany' within the Holy Roman Empire?

[Jarl]

Ever heard of the 'Kingdom of Germany' within the Holy Roman Empire?

Indeed. I have heard of many other kingdoms too. But a sense of national belonging is a very precise concept, and in those times it hardly existed, except for the ruling elites. There was definitely a sense of common identity based on the language, but talking of "nations" among the early feudal societies is not correct. German was mostly an ethno-linguistic term. In fact, the real awakening of national sense of identity begun in the XIXth century after Napoleonic era, and extended well into XXth century - like in Prussia/Mazurenland for instance. Modern meaning of "German" is thus quite different to that of the Medieval Ages or the XVI century. And even during feudal era "German", as in "of Kingdom of Germany", was still not the same as "Diutisc" in the broad ethnic meaning of the term. It is quite hard to imagine how people who just left the tribal era and stepped into the feudal world would immediately coin a "nation" with a coherent feeling of unity. This takes time and its a gradual process. I don't think we can speak of "nations" without encompassing the low classes, which constitute the main bulk of each nation. In that meaning, "nations" formed in XIX century.

[Zyklop]

Indeed. I have heard of many other kingdoms too. But a sense of national belonging is a very precise concept, and in those times it hardly existed, except for the ruling elites. There was definitely a sense of common identity based on the language, but talking of "nations" among the early feudal societies is not correct.I take it you make an exception for the Poles nonetheless.
German was mostly an ethno-linguistic term. What else should it be?

And even during feudal era "German", as in "of Kingdom of Germany", was still not the same as "Diutisc" in the broad ethnic meaning of the term. Actually it was, as the Kingdom of Germany emerged out of the theodisc (i.e. German) speaking parts of the Frankish Empire after the partition in 843 AD.

[Svanhild]

I don't think any such nation ever existed, and most certinly it was not designated by "deutsch/diutisc/diets" etc. At that time the Bavarians surely did not feel they were beloging to the same "nation" as the Saxons or the Frisians.
There was a sense that, despite all feudal differences, they are of the same kind. Minnesänger refered to the people in the various small principalities as "deutsche Art". How about reading in the Codex Manesse?

How do you explain that patriotic poem of Vogelweide, written in the 11th century? He's writing that German women (tiuschen frouwen = deutsche Frauen) are the best of all he has seen in the countries he had visited, that wonderful people are living between Elbe and Rhein (Von der Elbe unz an den Rîn), that German men are well-educated (Tiusche man sint wol gezogen = Deutsche Männer sind wohl erzogen) and that German breed is better than anything (tiuschiu zuht gât vor in allen = Deutsche Zucht ist besser als alles andere). http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ir_sult_sprechen_willekomen

I.
Ir sult sprechen willekomen:
der iu mære bringet, daz bin ich.
allez, daz ir habt vernomen,
daz ist gar ein wint: ir frâget mich.
ich wil aber miete:
wirt mîn lôn iht guot,
ich gesage iu lîhte, daz iu sanfte tuot.
seht, waz man mir êren biete.

II.
Ich wil tiuschen frouwen sagen
solhiu mære, daz si deste baz
al der werlte suln behagen:
âne grôze miete tuon ich daz.
waz wold ich ze lône?
si sint mir ze hêr:
sô bin ich gefüege und bite si nihtes mêr,
wan daz si mich grüezen schône.

(Ich will den deutschen Frauen Neuigkeiten bringen,
dass sie dann der ganzen Welt
noch besser gefallen werden.
Das tue ich ohne großen Lohn.
Was sollte ich an Lohn von ihnen wollen?
Sie sind zu vornehm für mich.
Deshalb bescheide ich mich und bitte sie um nichts sonst,
als dass sie mich schön grüßen.)

III.
Ich hân lande vil gesehen
unde nam der besten gerne war:
übel müeze mir geschehen,
kunde ich ie mîn herze bringen dar,
daz im wol gevallen
wolde fremeder site.
nû waz hulfe mich, ob ich unrehte strite?
tiuschiu zuht gât vor in allen.

(Ich habe viele Länder gesehen
und habe dort gerne die besten kennengelernt.
Aber es möge mir schlecht ergehen,
wenn ich je mein Herz dazu bringen könnte,
dass ihm fremde Lebensart
gefiele.
Was hätte ich davon, wenn ich etwas Unwahres behaupten würde?
Deutsche Zucht ist besser als alle anderen.)

IV.
Von der Elbe unz an den Rîn
und her wider unz an Ungerlant
mugen wol die besten sîn,
die ich in der werlte hân erkant.
kan ich rehte schouwen
guot gelâz unt lîp,
sem mir got, sô swüere ich wol, daz hie diu wîp
bezzer sint danne ander frouwen.

(Von der Elbe bis an den Rhein
und wieder hierher zurück bis an Ungarn
sind wohl die besten,
die ich in der ganzen Welt je kennengelernt habe.
Wenn ich mich darauf verstehe,
gutes Benehmen und gutes Äußeres zu beurteilen,
bei Gott, dann möchte ich wohl schwören, dass hierzulande die Frauen
besser sind als anderswo die Damen.)

V.
Tiusche man sint wol gezogen,
rehte als engel sint diu wîp getân.
swer si schildet, derst betrogen:
ich enkan sîn anders niht verstân.
tugent und reine minne,
swer die suochen wil,
der sol komen in unser lant: da ist wünne vil:
lange müeze ich leben dar inne!

(Deutsche Männer sind wohlerzogen,
und die Frauen sind ganz wie die Engel beschaffen.
Wenn jemand sie schilt, betrügt er sich selbst;
nicht anders kann ich ihn verstehen.
Wenn jemand Tugend und reine Liebe
suchen will,
so soll er in unser Land kommen: da herrscht große Wonne.
Lange möge ich in ihm leben!)

Elaborate, Jarl, and explain!

[Jarl]

I take it you make an exception for the Poles nonetheless.

Not at all. Poles, being a very agricultural nation, have always been very tied to the soil and had a strong sense of belonging at a local level. But this sense of common ethnicity at a local level is an artifact from the tribal era. There was a yawning gap between the peasants and the nobility. And actually, this gap rather increased after XVI century. It was not until XIX century, divisions of Poland and occupation when common folks started associating themselves with a concept of nation. Up to that day many Poles were rather loosely associated with each other. Many Galician peasants were loyal to the Habsburgs and fought against local nobility. Similarly, up to XIX century, Kashubians, Silesians, Kurpians had a vague sense of national belonging etc. Obviously in richer, more developed areas, like Greater Poland, this sense was better developed.

But generally, in Poland, the low classes have been incorporated into the concept of one Polish nation in the XIX century. Thats also the period when many German burgher families became polonised. And there are many German surnames among Polish nationalists and patriots of the XIX century. In less developed areas, like in Belarus - simple peasants had no national identity as late as 1939 (nobility have been polonised long before). They would simply say they are "local" or "Orthodox". Only later they gradually became aware of their separate identity.


What else should it be?

Term defining a nation. And it exists in that meaning too, yet refers to a narrower group of people which historically identified themselves as "German". I bet most Dutch or Frisians for instance do not consider themselves "German". And I am more than certain that Bavarians and Ossis also have quite different perception of that term.


Actually it was, as the Kingdom of Germany emerged out of the theodisc (i.e. German) speaking parts of the Frankish Empire after the partition in 843 AD.

Yes. After the split there was Schwaben, Bayern, Sachsen, Franken and Lotharingia. First three and Lotharingia were later unified by the Saxon dynasty. But "Regnum Teutonicum" was a no more a nation than Regnum Polonorum or Kievan Rus. It was a set of tribes unified and coerced into one state not by their own free will but by force, by a common ruling elite that established their reign over all tribes.

[Jarl]

There was a sense that, despite all feudal differences, they are of the same kind. Minnesänger refered to the people in the various small principalities as "deutsche Art". How about reading in the Codex Manesse?

How do you explain that patriotic poem of Vogelweide, written in the 11th century? He's writing that German women (tiuschen frouwen = deutsche Frauen) are the best of all he has seen in the countries he had visited, that wonderful people are living between Elbe and Rhein (Von der Elbe unz an den Rîn), that German men are well-educated (Tiusche man sint wol gezogen = Deutsche Männer sind wohl erzogen) and that German breed is better than anything (tiuschiu zuht gât vor in allen = Deutsche Zucht ist besser als alles andere). http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ir_sult_sprechen_willekomen


I explained it in my last post. In this txt "German" refers to a common ethnos. In perception of a very narrow marigin of educated, literate people who belonged to the elites. There can be no talk of a nation without all classes being encompassed and all local groups (steming from tribes) consciously willing for it.

[Svanhild]

I explained it in my last post. In this txt "German" refers to a common ethnos. In perception of a very narrow marigin of educated, literate people who belonged to the elites. There can be no talk of a nation without all classes being encompassed and all local groups (steming from tribes) consciously willing for it.
Then you should find a English of Polish translation of the poem and re-read it. You don't understand it. It has a clear ethnic context. The Germans. Not Germanics, not Europeans, but Germans.

[Jarl]

Then you should find a English of Polish translation of the poem and re-read it. You don't understand it. It has a clear ethnic context. The Germans. Not Germanics, not Europeans, but Germans.

No you should re-read my post! :P



I explained it in my last post. In this txt "German" refers to a common ethnos. In perception of a very narrow marigin of educated, literate people who belonged to the elites. There can be no talk of a nation without all classes being encompassed and all local groups (steming from tribes) consciously willing for it.

[Zyklop]

And I am more than certain that Bavarians and Ossis also have quite different perception of that term.Of the term 'German'? Why would they? From the Hymn of Bavaria:

1. Gott mit dir, du Land der Bayern,
deutsche Erde, Vaterland!
Über deinen weiten Gauen
ruhe Seine Segenshand!
|: Er behüte deine Fluren,
schirme deiner Städte Bau
Und erhalte dir die Farben
Seines Himmels, weiß und blau! :|

2. Gott mit dir, dem Bayernvolke,
dass wir, uns’rer Väter wert,
fest in Eintracht und in Frieden
bauen uns’res Glückes Herd!
|: Dass mit Deutschlands Bruderstämmen
einig uns ein jeder schau
und den alten Ruhm bewähre
unser Banner, weiß und blau! :|

Translation:


God be with you, land of the Bavarians,
German soil, fatherland!
Over your wide area
Rest His merciful hand!
He shall protect your meadows,
Shield the buildings of your towns
And preserve you the colours
of His sky, white and blue!

God be with you, people of Bavaria,
that we, to our fathers' worth,
fixed in harmony and peace
build our own fortunes!
That with bonds of German brotherhood (correct translation: with Germany's brother tribes)
Everyone may see us united
And the old splendour stands the test
our Banner, white and blue!


Yes. After the split there was Schwaben, Bayern, Sachsen, Franken and Lotharingia. First three and Lotharingia were later unified by the Saxon dynasty. But "Regnum Teutonicum" was a no more a nation than Regnum Polonorum or Kievan Rus. It was a set of tribes unified and coerced into one state not by their own free will but by force, by a common ruling elite that established their reign over all tribes.A set of tribes of common language and history doesn't look all too artificial to me. And I don't think any modern nation was created without bloodshed.

[Jarl]

Come on, this is not so. You apparently have some contact with Bavarians. Ask them how strongly they feel related to ppl from Brandenburg (or vice versa). Even you pointed out (at that thread on whom you feel closest to) that you feel strongly associated with Schwabians, Bavarians and Austrians, yet not as much with the low country people. If you ask a Bavarian no doubts he will say he is German. But his meaning and perception of that term will be different to that of a Berliner of Hanoverian. Mainly due to the strong local Bavarian identity, which can be argued resembles that of a nation.

[Jarl]

A set of tribes of common language and history doesn't look all too artificial to me. And I don't think any modern nation was created without bloodshed.

Aah! Precisely! Here you mentioned common history! Nation is forged through historical events that unite people. Wars, occupation, struggle, periods of prosperity, colonisation and mass-migrations etc. All this contributes to a unification. In Poland's history, common struggle to survive against russification and germanisation was one of the key nation-forming factors. But this forming of a nation through history takes time. It is not artifical that feudal states formed from tribal societies - with ruling class of one tribe dominating the others, however, a nation by definition means an active participation of all classes, all people.

[Zyklop]

Come on, this is not so. You apparently have some contact with Bavarians. Ask them how strongly they feel related to ppl from Brandenburg (or vice versa). They still will feel more related to them than to non-Germans. It's just natural to feel closest to people from one's own region, tribe, dialect etc.

What's true is that there nowadays is some kind of animosity between West and East (former GDR) but this has solely economic reasons.

Even you pointed out (at that thread on whom you feel closest to) that you feel strongly associated with Schwabians, Bavarians and Austrians, yet not as much with the low country people.Not as much doesn't mean not feeling related or seeing them as less German. Every nation encompasses different local characteristics and mentalities. This surely doesn't justify regional segregation (although it seems since invention of the internet every moron with a website starts an independent movement of his own every once in a while).

If you ask a Bavarian no doubts he will say he is German. But his meaning and perception of that term will be different to that of a Berliner of Hanoverian. Not sure what you mean. The perception would be the same as it's quite clear which tribes are considered German.
Mainly due to the strong local Bavarian identity, which can be argued resembles that of a nation.They still identify as German too. In other words, despite seeing themselves as distinctive, they are aware of their ethnic and historic bonds with other tribes.

[Jarl]

I dont doubt that. What I say is that, there is always a certain continuum. A person from Berlin or Leipzig will be likely to have a stronger "German" national identity than a Bavarian from Munich whose broader national identity might be slightly compromised by a very strong local Bavarian identity.

[Zyklop]

I dont doubt that. What I say is that, there is always a certain continuum. A person from Berlin or Leipzig will be likely to have a stronger "German" national identity than a Bavarian from Munich whose broader national identity might be slightly compromised by a very strong local Bavarian identity.The analogy would be that they identify as being sächsisch or berlinerisch first and German second, just as the Bavarians. My point was that such regionalism exists within any nation and doesn't contradict a national identity.

[cywil]

I'm not 100% sure but I think that also in Italian Universities existed a "Natio Polonorum" as it existed in universities abroad. Anyway, as already written, the fact that he joined up with the "German club" says only that he spoke German whatever his ethnicity. Probably he was of mixed ethnicity but it would be very wrong to project on him the criteria of the modern nationalism.

I am not so sure there was a “Natio Polonorum” in Bologna in Kopernik’s time. What I have read instead is that many other students from Poland, Hungary, Bohemia (Chech) and other parts of central-east Europe signed into the “German nation”. While most Slavic languages call the Romance language speaking peoples: Wlochy (Polish for Italy, Italian), Wolochy (Romanians, Moldavians), a uniquely Slavic name proving contact and knowledge of their southern neighbours from the time of the Roman Empire existence, and before the Protoslavic language diverged (abundant later evidence also exists of Polish culture being well aquatinted with Italian culture and history), such intimate knowledge and attention was never reciprocated by the Roman or Italian people. In fact, even today, some amazing broadly generalised statements on history and affairs of north eastern Europe, given by a top Italian politician with impressive bravado, surprise anyone from the discussed area with their vast stretching and self confident ignorance. We should not expect that things would have been any better in Copernicus times and likely it was not on Kopernik’s agenda either, to enlighten Bologna cannon law students in matters of Polish spelling or history. Copernicus signed into one of the largest student fraternities called “Natio Germanorum”. He paid 6 grosses as the entry fee. The treasurer or other fraternity representative received the money, as noted next to Kopernik’s name. This treasurer was the most likely person to be entrusted with making entries into the fraternity members’ names registry – if not only to make sure that the registry was legible, written down in uniform handwriting and not blotted, than to keep track of the received fees and take down names of only those students who paid. What could have taken place at the time Copernicus was signed in, may have resembled what John Barth described in his “Sot Weed Factor”. In this novel an African king by the name of Drepacca gets captured by the slave traders and is shipped off to America. There he gets aquainted with an Irishman MacEvoy who promptly renames him to similarly sounding but more familiar and easier to remember Dick Parker, while at another occasion the new master Ebenezer Cook calls him Drakepecker. Now, it is quite typical indeed for new immigrants on arrival to Canada or US to receive advice, to alter the spelling of their name or even the name itself – they hear that if people do not know how to pronounce their name they are less likely to call them for a job interview, or would avoid talking to them. This way Grazyna becomes Grace, Piotr switches to Peter, and Czechowicz becomes Chekhovich. Chinese immigrants typically adopt an all together new first name.
So here is how I envision the process of signing into the student fraternity of “Natio Germanorum” by Kopernik:
-So what is your name, my friend?
-Mikolaj Kopernik
-Mi… what?… What do they call you at home?
-Miklasz (like in the last name Miklaszewski) Kopernik
-Aha! Now you are talking! So it is Niclas Kopperlingk! Let me have your 6 grosses.
Kopernik’s attitude towards the “Natio Germanorum” fraternity fellows might have been ambiguous. He studied the cannon law for many years in Bologna (he also studied medicine in Padova) but for his diploma dissertation in cannon law he went to the Ferrara University. Some scholars speculate that he might have wanted to avoid throwing the customary, but costly graduation party for the dudes from the “Natio Germanorum” fraternity, in Bologna. We shall not know if this was just frugality or anything else.
The “Natio Germanorum” entry seems to be a very weak proof that Kopernik was German, or his mother tongue was German, even though that it has a very long history of being interpreted so. On the other hand we know of a letter written undoubtedly by him to the King of Poland (written albeit in latin, most appropriately for a high official in Catholic Church) where as the commander of the soldier crew defending a castle he reports that he is besieged with his men by the Teutonic Knights and urges the King to send reinforcements promptly, stating also his resolve to remain at his post and if needed his readiness to die there, in defence of his land. It is hard to believe that such actions and declarations were undertaken out of mere opportunism or conformity to keep his position, as other cannons in the same circumstances simply fled to safer places.
As for the claim, widely debated on this forum that his mother tongue was German it is mostly supported by the fact that his mother last name was Watzenrode. The Watzenrode family indeed immigrated to Poland from Germany, but that probably happened in the thirteenth century with a large wave of German immigration related to a campaign of assigning new laws to existing towns and villages and building new ones. Along with new laws the old cities had often received new City walls, new more regular street layout related to even real property or building lot divisions. This was to ensure efficient tax collection and generally aid the town’s development. The Polish princes and Kings from Polish State founding Piast dynasty initiated this process in order to increase their income and their country wealth. The date of adoption of the so-called “Magdeburg Law” by a town is typically related in its history as the founding date, regardless of whether the town existed before or not. Such was the case with the ancient city of Gdansk (or Danzig) in eastern Pomerania – a Piast territory that came to be called Royal Prussia when it was retrieved by the Polish Crown in Kopernik’s time - some 140 years after being conquered from Piasts by the Teutonic Knights. (The ethnic Prussians related to Latvians and Lithuanians never lived there, their lands were more to the east along the Baltic shore) Similar is the history of Torun - Kopernik’s birth place, settled for centuries before being founded under the Magdeburg Law by the Teutonic Knights in a small county granted to them by the Piast prince – Konrad of Mazovia. Prince Konrad brought the Knights from the Holy Land into Poland in order to help christianise the Prussians in hopes that it will lessen border skirmishes caused by this pagan nation, skirmishes and raids that diminished income from his north Mazovian lands. (How naïve…after the Teutonic Knights arrived his problems only magnified, with the Knights being the offending party, not the Prussians any more) Under the new laws the burghers, including the immigrant Germans were granted many privileges and often an initial tax free period that may have lasted for a generation or more. The immigrants were brought for they know-how and skills and were often given the inherited position of town or village mayor. This and their hard work made them often highly financially successful and members of the town ruling elite.
Within the about 200 years from the time of immigration to Kopernik’s times these German immigrants often intermarried with their Polish counterparts as was in the case of the Watzenrode family. While Kopernik’s mother’s maiden name was Watzenrode his maternal grandmother’s was the typically Polish Modlibog, and the Watzenrode family was related to such Polish noble families as: Czapski, Dzialynski, Koscielecki and Konopacki.
As to the question what language Koperniks spoke at home we may only guess, likely both. Historian Norman Davies believes there is ample evidence suggesting Kopernik spoke Polish, as well as German.

[Osweo]

What I have read instead is that many other students from Poland, Hungary, Bohemia (Chech) and other parts of central-east Europe signed into the “German nation”.
This makes a great deal of sense. No doubt the Welsh would have joined an English society had it existed, for similar reasons.

While most Slavic languages call the Romance language speaking peoples: Wlochy (Polish for Italy, Italian), Wolochy (Romanians, Moldavians), a uniquely Slavic name proving contact and knowledge of their southern neighbours from the time of the Roman Empire existence, and before the Protoslavic language diverged
The term is not 'uniquely Slavic' but is a borrowing from Germanic. Our word 'Welsh' is the same thing. An older English form would be Wealaca - you can see the similarity with your Woloch/Vlach. (The ultimate origin may be the name of the Celtic Volcae tribe, but this is hard to demonstrate.)

Piotr switches to Peter,
There's no switch, as the names are fully cognate, and Polaks and Germans would have been well aware of the correspondences.

-Mikolaj Kopernik
-Mi… what?… What do they call you at home?
-Miklasz (like in the last name Miklaszewski) Kopernik
-Aha! Now you are talking! So it is Niclas Kopperlingk!
I don't doubt that similar things did and do happen, but as you've said above, Copernicus conducted a lot of his business in Latin. He would always have known that Nicholas is the 'official' form, and would have switched to Nikolaus or whatever as and when suitable. In the same way, a native Irish Seamus Mac Sheain would always sign himself in official documents as 'James Kane' without even thinking about it, at least until recent times.

the Watzenrode family was related to such Polish noble families as: Czapski, Dzialynski, Koscielecki and Konopacki.
Is that last name from your word for cannabis? :p

As to the question what language Koperniks spoke at home we may only guess, likely both. Historian Norman Davies believes there is ample evidence suggesting Kopernik spoke Polish, as well as German.
Davies married a Pole, speaks Polish, writes books about Polish history, and often lets his partisan instincts get the better of him. In his 'Europe' history, there's far too much on Poland, and many parts are ridiculously pro-Poland and pro-Catholic. :D I wouldn't trust him on Copernicus. (Though he might well be right! I imagine German burghers in these towns would have needed to speak to lots of Poles in their daily business, at least in a few simple phrases.)

[kwp_wp]

Is that last name from your word for cannabis?


yup, exactly:thumb001:
Konopie (plural) means literally cannabis:)

[Geronimo3000]

This is not the complete story
I heard his DNA ancestry was linked to the Coopers & Wallace's of Scotland

[Марко Краљевић]

In recent findings it is said that Copernicus got his idea of heliocentric universe by reading Aristarchus's work, which was by the way mathematically backed. Jerzy Dobrzycki and Leszek Hajdukiewicz, "Kopernik, Mikołaj", Polski słownik biograficzny, pp. 5-6.

So in the end, it is just a lot of fuss about a man who had taken Hellenistic astronomer theory about heliocentric universe and popularized in inquisition times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristarchus_of_Samos

[Al Croise]

People, families change nationality. Germans and Slavs are of similar races and it is quite easy to pass for Polish or German.
There are many examples where siblings or parents and children choose different nationality.

I have gathered some other examples of men whose nationality may be disputed.

Who is Polish and who is German, or are they mixes:eek:

Józef Beck - German (of origin) antigerman (of politics) polish Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Second Republic. It is always funny, when I read Germans accusing pre-1939 polish German of being antigerman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Józef_Beck

Franciszek Kleeberg - general of Polish Army in 1939
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciszek_Kleeberg

Archduke Karl Albrecht of Austria - military commander in Polish Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Karl_Albrecht_of_Austria

Otto Skorzeny - SS-Obersturmbannführer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Skorzeny

Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski - Obergruppenführer of Waffen SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_dem_Bach-Zelewski

Fritz-Erich von Lewinski called Erich von Manstein - Generalfeldmarschall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_Manstein


But these examples show that nationality is fluid.
Another examples are American, Canadian etc. nations.

[Jarl]

;) Some Polish 1939 generals of German ancestry:


- Neugebauer Mieczyslaw

- Thomee Wiktor

- Rómmel Juliusz

- Burhardt-Bukacki Stanislaw

- Knoll-Kownacki Edmund

- Kleeberg Franciszek

- Rouppert Stanislaw

- Szylling Antoni

- Miller Stanislaw

- Zalauf Juliusz

- Ruckemann Wilhelm

- Unrug Józef

- Dreszer Rudolf

- Dindorf Franciszek

- Krzisch Otton

- Maresch Teofil


Other German(ic) generals in Polish 1920-1939 Army:

- Haller Józef

- Haller Stanisław

- Anders Władysław

- Hubischta Jan Władysław

- Hauser Edmund

- Jung Władysław Jan

- Tinz Eugeniusz Aleksander

- Linde Mieczysław

- Prich Rudolf

- Langner Władysław

- Gruber Edward

- Kraupa Bolesław

- Becker Józef

- Schindler Józef

- Fitz Henryk

- Krauss Karol

- Hempel Jan Marian

- Reyman Robert Kazimierz

and many others...

[cywil]

I just want to add that according to that logic "koper" in Polish means dill, so Kopernik's ancestors could have been farmers or vegetable growers
:)

Another possibility is the Polish folk "kopera" for "hare". The old Polish expression: "sunąć w koperczaki" - "move forward / dance, jumping" meaning - "eagerly attending to a lady", "courting a woman", may come from this origin as well. Today's Polish / Silesian "kopyrtnąć" means: "jump", "hop", "make a cartwheel", "leap", "go quickly fetch something", "trip", "fall", "die suddenly" and seems to come from the same linguistic source.

The Polish ancestry website "moikrewni.pl" reports:
130 persons with a last name Kopernik live in Poland today.
Its German counterpart "verwant.de" says there are 22 Koperniks in Germany today.

No persons by the name: Kopperlingk, Koppernick, Koppernik today live in Poland, Germany, Austria or Switzerland, according to these websites.

Other similar Polish names still in use:
Koperniak - 380 persons in Poland
Kopernok - 85 (mostly in Silesia)
Kopera - 2319
Koperczak -262
Kopyra - 370
Koperny / Koperna - 104
Kopernicki / Kopernicka - 13
Koperski / Koperska- 3099
Kopyrski / Kopyrska - 59
Kopernacki / Kopernacka - 63
Koperczyński / Koperczyńska - 6

[cywil]

No Koppernigks either... in Germany today.

[Peterski]

Copernicus' haplotype places him almost certainly in haplogroup R1b. While this haplogroup has a very wide distribution, it is the case that it is one of the haplogroups which differentiate Germans from Poles. So, while this is insufficient to ascertain the ethnic origin of Copernicus' patrilineage, it certainly suggests a higher probability for it being of ethnic German rather than Polish origin.

This is a wrong conclusion, you did not check the exact subclade (see: Dr Peter Gwozdz, "Copernicus Y-DNA is R1b1b2a1").

This Kopernik's Y-DNA haplogroup - which is so called "haplotype 35" of R1b - has nothing to do with Germans.

His subclade (if this is really his skeleton) was identified as R1b1b2a1 (L51) - which is a sub-branch of R1b1b2a (L23):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28935-New-map-of-R1b-ht35-%28L23-L51-L11-Z2103%29


map showing the Proto-Indo-European R1b, as well Greek and Anatolian branches of Indo-European people, including the Hittites, Lydians, Phrygians and Armenians. The Trojans also probably belonged to this group. This branch of R1b is the first that emerged from the Pontic Steppe and therefore expanded from the Balkans and Carpathians. It includes R1b-L23/S141, its subclade L51/M412/S167, and its two subclades L11/S127/L151 (in central an northern Europe) and Z2103 (in Anatolia and Assyria). Altogether they are known as 'haplotype 35' (ht35), as opposed to the Western European 'haplotype 15', which comprises the Proto-Italo-Celtic P312/S116 and the Proto-Germanic U106/S21.

Here is a map showing distribution of this haplogroup and the village of Koperniki (green), from which the clan of Koperniks had originated:

Location of Koperniki is 50°24′35″N 17°16′35″E - the clan (and its surname) originated there in Early Middle Ages:

http://s28.postimg.org/naemf4tml/mapa.png

http://s28.postimg.org/naemf4tml/mapa.png

As you can see modern frequency of this haplogroup is still higher in Lesser Poland (Southern Poland) than anywhere in Germany. And astronomer's paternal ancestors - father and grandfather - lived precisely in that region, Lesser Poland, in the city of Cracow (Kraków).

It was astronomer's father who emigrated from Kraków and moved north to Toruń (German name: Thorn).

============================

And here are modern frequencies of surname Kopernik and other variants, which descend from the Medieval clan in question:

http://www.verwandt.de/karten/

http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/

http://s7.postimg.org/iqchqdfa3/Kopernik_descendants.png

And the most frequent first name among 22 Koperniks in Germany is "Lesław", while that Kopernatzki in Germany is "Janusz":

http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/kopernik.html


Leslaw Kopernik kommt in Deutschland am häufigsten vor.

http://www.verwandt.de/karten/absolut/kopernatzki.html


Janusz Kopernatzki kommt in Deutschland am häufigsten vor.

So even these few people with Kopernik-related surnames in Germany, are mostly Polish immigrants with Slavic first names.

===========================

As a side note, a good book (pdf file) in English - "From alchemy to the present day - the choice of biographies of Polish scientists":

http://uatacz.up.krakow.pl/~wwwchemia/pliki/ISBN_978_83_7271_768_9_From_alchemy_to_the_present _day

[Peterski]

As you can see in the table of surnames above, surnames such as "Copernicus" or various German-sounding variants, simply do not exist. Copernicus was just a Latinized spelling of a surname Kopernik. And those other variants with zero people having them, were Germanized spelling. They were never real surnames but merely foreign spelling versions of surname Kopernik. The fact that nobody has such surnames today proves this.

Sources for data in that table are online surname databases (with maps) quoted above it - verwandt.de and moikrewni.pl.


that it is one of the haplogroups which differentiate Germans from Poles

Only to some extent, because +/- 15 percent of ethnic Polish males have R1b, which is quite a lot (few millions of men).

But not all of this is "Western" R1b. Kopernik had "Middle Eastern" branch of R1b, and Polish Chazbijewicze clan have "Tatar-Turkic" branch of R1b. If you think that all of R1b is something exclusively Western European then you are wrong - it did not even originate in Europe, as we know.

Listen to prof. Selim Chazbijewicz in this video (Chazbijewicze took their surname from their ancestor Chazbej - one of Lipka Tatars):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQqPf6Dm1NI

According to the link below, one of Chazbijewicze guys is R1b1a1 (M73+), of course it doesn't mean that all of them have it:

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/WXL_Nobility,WXL_Nobility%C3%AF%C2%BF%C2%BDion=yre sults/default.aspx?section=yresults

http://s1.postimg.org/uu1x46u0v/Chazbej.png

In some parts of the Middle East & Asia Minor there is more than 30% (up to 40%) of R1b - see the map for ht35 above.

[Bahaman]

He is too swarthy to be German.

[Guapo]

;)

^ Jarl was a cool forum guy...so many good posters not here anymore.

[Krampus]

German spy detected German spy detected you will not assimilate us into Deutsch

[Peterski]

Bahaman - actually southern Germans are relatively swarthy, if this map is correct (map shows skin pigmentation AFAIK):

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f389/Humanophage/GeneticPigm.jpg

But this is irrelevant, on paternal side he wasn't German but Polish, even if his haplogroup is most common in Armenia. His mother, on the other hand, was from Waczenrode family which was German-speaking at that time, but so far there was no any genetic research on them.

Edit: Oh it skipped to new page, for people who read this - check my two posts on the previous page (6) as well.

[Peterski]

I imagine German burghers in these towns would have needed to speak to lots of Poles in their daily business, at least in a few simple phrases.

Father of astronomer Kopernik was born in Cracow, from which he migrated to Torun around year 1400.

What is the probability that someone who lived in Cracow shortly before 1400 did not speak Polish fluently?

Let's see:


A revolt by the Germans of Cracow, headed by one Albert, and by Bishop Jan Muskata, who thought of returning to their earlier Bohemian allegiance, was suppressed after a year-long siege [1311 - 1312]. (...) Investigations into the Cracovian revolt were assisted by a simple language test. Any suspect who could repeat and correctly pronounce "soczewica", "koło", "miele", "młyn" was judged loyal; he who faltered was guilty. (...) The Archbishop of Gniezno, Jakub Swinka, brought Bishop Muskata, the "enemy of the Polish people", before an ecclesiastical court. He excommunicated [in 1285] the prince of Głogów, "a traitor who was turning Silesia into a new Saxony" and had resigned his claim to Pomerania in favour of the Teutonic Order.

So after 1312 everyone in Cracow spoke Polish fluently because those who had refused to get Polonized, were executed for treason.

Archbishop Jakub Swinka was one of those 13th-14th century Poles who had many merits in combat against Germanization:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13402931&postcount=81


According to 14th century abbots of Zbraslav, authors of Czech Zbraslav Chronicle (http://www.zbraslavhistorie.info/index.php?jazyk=en), when a German chaplain - Hans Wulfing - in year 1300 delivered a speech in Latin during coronation of Wenceslav II, Archbishop Jakub Świnka (Archbishop from 1283 to 1314) told him:

"Your Latin is very good, but you are still a German doghead. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynocephaly#Medieval_West)"

(...)

Jakub Świnka (Latin: Iacobus Swinka):

During one of synodes he called, a decree was enacted, which ordered sermons in churches to be in Polish language:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Jakub_%C5%9Awinka.PNG

(he is pointing at Germans or pro-German guys to be excommunicated, probably)

Apropos the Teutonic Order - Kopernik (the astronomer) fought against them, as a loyal soldier of Poland.

Which of course doesn't mean anything in itself, but "the most hardcore Germans" - Saxons - usually supported the Teutonic Order.

Even their "fellow Germanic" Danish people did not have "the best" (to put it mildly) opinion about Saxons / Northern Germans:

Adam of Bremen (Adamus Bremensis) in "Gesta Ecclesiae Hamburgensis Pontificum" (written in the 2nd half of 11th century) wrote:

"(...) very sincere Danish king [Sweyn II Estridsson] used to say, that [Pagan] Slavic peoples would have become Christian already long time ago and voluntarily, if only not the Saxon rapacity, which stands in the way. Saxon mind, as he used to say, is more accustomed to collecting tribute than to converting people. These wretches [Saxons] do not expect, how heavy price they will pay for their greediness. They, who first disturbed the progress of Christianity in Slavdom... , now in order to get rich despise the salvation of souls of these ones, who wanted to become believers. (...)"

[Peterski]

Sorry double post.

[Peterski]

Again, sorry.

[Peterski]

Again, where is your evidence that Copernicus identified as Polish?

Kopernik was called "Sarmatian astronomer" by Germans, and Sarmatians was a name for Poles at that time.

Kopernik himself never made a statement of his national identity, but he was loyal to Poland and Germans of that time saw him as Polish.

Here is what Germans wrote about Kopernik's ethnicity (Sarmatian = Polish and Non-Germanic):

"Certain people believe it is a marvelous achievement to extol so crazy a thing, like that Sarmatian astronomer who makes the Earth move and the Sun stand still. Really, wise governments ought to repress impudence of mind."

- Philipp Melanchthon - German scholar and follower of Luther, 16 October 1541.

===================

On the other hand, Jan Hevelius from 17th century Gdansk made a clear statement about his national identity:

"Civis orbis Poloni, qui in honorem patriae suae rei Literariae bono tot labores molestiasque, absit gloria, cum maximo facultatum suarum dispendio perduravit."

Which translates to English:

"Citizen of the Polish world, who for the glory of his country and for the good of science, worked so much, and while not boasting much, executed his work with most effort per his abilities."

[Peterski]

Too bad that Medieval people did not pay attention to spelling and ortography.

Personal signatures of astronomer:

Nicolaus Copernicus (astronomer's personal signature from 1539)
Νικολευ Κόπερνικoυ (astronomer's personal signature in Greek)
Nicolaus Copernic (astronomer's personal signature at Padua)

Various spelling variants of astronomer's surname, as written by other persons of the 15th - 16th centuries:

Nicolaus Copernidus (spelling by J. Dantiscus)
Nicolaum Koperni (spelling by Bona Sforza)
Nicolaus Copernik
Nicolaus Coppernyck
Nicolaus Goppernic
Nicolaus Coopernick (in 1512)
Nicolaus Gopernick
Nicolaus Copernich
Nicolaus Coppernich
Nicolaus Coppernicus
Nicolao Copernico (spelling by G. J. Rheticus)
Nicolao Cupernico (another spelling by G. J. Rheticus - lol)
Nicolaus Coppernigk (in 1504)

And perhaps several more variants, that I've been unable to find.

More modern:

Mikołaj Kopernik (spelling by e.g. Ludwik Antoni Birkenmajer)

Several examples of other Medieval people with this surname (or similar surnames) - original spelling from sources:

Stanislaus Kopernik (person from 1417)
Margritte Koppirnickynne (person from 1422; noted in the town book of Torun)
Petrus Koppernik (person from 1409)
Niczko Coppernik (person from 1375)
Joannes de Coppirnig (person from 1424)
Nicolaus Koppernik (person from 15th century)
Claus Kopernik (person from 1440)
Petir Koppirnicks (person from 1422; noted in the town book of Torun)
Niclas Koppernik von Crocaw (by some town chronicler from Gdansk)
Nicolaus Koppirnig (by some town chronicler from Gdansk)

===========================================

Early recorded names of village Koperniki in Sillesia (all these names apply to the same village, not to different places):

Coprnih (document from 1272)
Copirnik (document from 1284)
Copirnich (document from 1280s)
Copernik (document from 1291)

It is believed that ancestors of astronomer had emigrated from that village to Cracow (and then from Cracow to Torun). It was first suggested by nationalist German historian Georg Bender in his 1920 book, that ancestors of astronomer Copernicus originally came from this particular village. Only later, when Polish historians proved that this village had originally been inhabited by Polish-speaking population, German historians changed their theory.

This village is located near the town of Nysa (Neisse). This part of Silesia was inhabited by Polish-speaking population during the 14th century, and one century later as well - as the Nuremberg Chronicle informs us under year 1493, saying that populations of villages around Nysa spoke Polish:

"Plebs rustica polonici ydeomatis" (excerpt from the Nuremberg Chronicle concerning the region of Nysa, under year 1493)

There are also more of similar placenames (toponyms) in this and other regions of Poland.

===========================================

Similar surnames which actually exist today - other spelling variants (including those mentioned above) do not exist:

Kopernik - most frequent in Poland (a few people of this surname live also in Germany, but most common name among them is "Lesław")
Koperniak - most frequent in Poland
Kopernok - as above
Koperny(a) - as above
Kopernatzki(a) - as above
Kopernacki(a) - as above
Kopernicki(a) - as above
Kupernik - as above

Such surnames and placenames are of Slavic origin, derived from Slavic words for dill (koper / koperek) or for copper and related things:

The old Polish word for copper is koprowina (in some regions it was used until recently) and "made of copper" is koprowy(a/e).

This word also still exists in Slavic Upper and Lower Sorbian (Lusatian) languages, as well as words: kopernik, kopornik, kope(o)rnikar:


(...) starsi Polacy pamiętają z pewnością, że w niektorych dzielnicach Polski, np. w Wielkopolsce, co wspaniale osobiście pamiętam z przedwojennego dzieciństwa, miedź nazywano koprowiną, stąd dalej mówiono: drut koprowy, rura koprowa, patelnia koprowa itd. Z pewnością nazywano tak miedź i w innych dzielnicach kraju. (...) wracając do nazwy "naszej" wsi oraz do nazwiska rodowego Koperników, końcowka „-ik”, „-yk” jest typowym zakończeniem słowiańskim, obcym językowi niemieckiemu. Jest to więc końcówka pełniąca rolę deminitivu lub spieszczająca pewne pojęcia (tu np. słowik, chłopczyk, konik, jeżyk, walczyk itp.) a także określająca pozycję, zawód, wreszcie także zakład przemysłowy, np.: naczelnik, wojownik, mechanik, elektryk, wapiennik. Słowo kopornik, kopernik istnieje w językach łużyckich i znaczy huta miedziana zaś kopornikar = kotlarz. Podobne znaczenie znajdujemy w innym słowniku górnołużycko – niemieckim, gdzie jednak oddano je jako "Kupferhammer" = młotek miedziany (tu przytoczmy jednak używane jeszcze na południu Polski przestarzałe słowo "hamernia", oznaczające kuźnię-młotownię. Ów "Kupferhammer" byłaby to więc kuźnia miedzi. W językach łużyckich istnieje poza tym słowo kop(e)r = koper, od którego można by ewentualnie wywodzić nazwisko Kopernik, lecz częstotliwość nazw miejscowych jak przytoczone wyżej, świadczyłaby raczej o związku z wydobyciem i obrobką miedzi, czyli koprowiny, co ma miejsce na Śląsku Dolnym - jak wiadomo - jeszcze i dziś. (...)

In Sorbian languages there is also the word kopr (modern Polish equivalent is koper, see the excerpt quoted above).

[Peterski]

It turns out that Nicolaus Kopernik's Y-DNA was distinctly Polish rather than German.

But I started a new thread about this:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?154714-Nicolaus-Kopernik-was-paternally-a-Pole&p=3287213#post3287213