Can genetic mutations produce positive changes in living creatures?

[Lulletje Rozewater]

It is held by evolutionists that genetic mutations (http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/genetic-mutations.html#definition) are an avenue of positive change in living organisms. For example, Richard Dawkins' book, The Blind Watchmaker, seeks to establish a godless cosmos of chance in which the appearance of design in life has occurred by accident, by the incremental accumulation of positive changes in genes. His evidence relating to biochemical genetics, however, consists of theoretical models of little relevance to the real world.
Thus, the question remains: What do we actually see in the world around us when we use scientific tools of measurement and observation? Do we see this “blind watchmaker” at work in any real-life examples, or do we see the opposite? etc etc


http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/genetic-mutations.html

[nisse]

Mutations in an of themselves don't result in any directional changes, taken with selection, however, they do result in positive evolution.

As a real-life example, a change in the upstream enhancer region of Drosophila melanogaster anscestor's pigmentation gene induced an appearance of a yellow stop on the gene. Since the mating dance of this species gives advantage to males with more prominent wings, through sexual selection this mutation was isolated, resulting in the emergeance of a separate species Drosophila biarmipes.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Mutations in an of themselves don't result in any directional changes, taken with selection, however, they do result in positive evolution.

As a real-life example, a change in the upstream enhancer region of Drosophila melanogaster anscestor's pigmentation gene induced an appearance of a yellow stop on the gene. Since the mating dance of this species gives advantage to males with more prominent wings, through sexual selection this mutation was isolated, resulting in the emergeance of a separate species Drosophila biarmipes.

<center> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/mutant_flies_title2.gif </center> <table border="0" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/intro_text.gif
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<table border="0" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/images/to_do_and_notice.gif




Click on the small thumbnail pictures below to magnify the flies. You'll see enlarged illustrations of fruit flies, Drosophila melanogaster. (In our real exhibit you'd be looking at the actual flies crawling around, looking for food or grooming their wings.)
Compare the mutated flies to the normal flies.



http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/images/whats_going_on.gif

The fruit flies in this exhibit show just a few of the mutations that occur in natural fruit fly populations.
The genetic instructions to build a fruit fly-or any other organism-are imprinted in its DNA, a long, threadlike molecule packaged in bundles called chromosomes. Like a phone book made up of different names and addresses, each chromosome consists of many individual sections called genes. Each gene carries some of the instructions for building one particular characteristic of an organism.

<center> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/fly_chromosomes2.gif </center> To build a complete organism, many genes must work precisely together. A defect in a gene can cause a change in the building plan for one particular body part-or for the entire organism.
http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/images/so_what.gif

Mutations are neither good nor bad: some may be beneficial for an organism; others may be lethal. By creating new gene versions, mutations are a driving force for changes in evolution, sometimes leading to new species.
Biologists learn about the proper function of any gene by studying mutations. If a defective gene causes short wings, for instance, scientists know that the healthy version of the gene is responsible for correct wing formation.
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<center> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/altered_wing_structure.gif

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="28%"> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/normal_thumb.gif (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif)
Normal Fruit Flies (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif)
</td> <td width="72%"> <center>

</center> These are normal fruit flies, or "wildtypes." Notice the shape and length of their wings. Now compare them with the other fruit flies here.</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="6" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td height="152" width="28%"> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/short-wings_thumb.gif
Short-Winged Flies (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/short-wings.gif)
</td> <td height="152" valign="MIDDLE" width="72%"> <center>

Notice the shortened wings of these flies. Flies with vestigial wings cannot fly: they have a defect in their "vestigial gene," on the second chromosome. These flies have a recessive mutation. Of the pair of vestigial genes carried by each fly (one from each parent), both have to be altered to produce the abnormal wing shape. If only one is mutated, the healthy version can override the defect.

</center> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td height="152" width="28%"> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/curly-wings_thumb.gif
Curly-Winged Flies (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/curly-wings.gif)
</td> <td height="152" valign="MIDDLE" width="72%"> <center>

Notice the curled wings of these flies. They have a defect in their "curly gene," which is on the second chromosome. Having curled wings is a dominant mutation, which means that only one copy of the gene has to be altered to produce the defect. In fact, if both copies are mutated, the flies do not survive.

</center> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>





http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/abnormal_body_color.gif


</center> <center> </center> (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif) <table border="0" cellpadding="6" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="28%"> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/normal_thumb.gif (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif)
Normal Fruit Flies (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif)
</td> <td width="72%"> <center>

</center> These normal fruit flies, or "wildtypes," have black-and-tan striped bodies. Compare them with the other fruit flies here.</td> </tr> </tbody></table> (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif)
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="28%"> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/yellow-fly_thumb.gif
Yellow Flies (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/yellow-fly.gif)
</td> <td width="72%"> <center> </center> Notice that these flies are yellower than normal flies. They have a defect in their "yellow gene," which is on the X chromosome. Since the yellow gene is needed for producing a fly's normal black pigment, yellow mutant flies cannot produce this pigment.</td> </tr> </tbody></table> (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif)
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="28%"> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/ebony_thumb.gif
Ebony Flies (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/ebony.gif)
</td> <td width="72%"> <center> </center> Notice that these flies have a dark, almost black, body. They carry a defect in their "ebony gene," on the third chromosome. Normally, the ebony gene is responsible for building up the tan-colored pigments in the normal fruit fly. If the ebony gene is defective, the black pigments accumulate all over the body.</td> </tr> </tbody></table>



(http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif) <center> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/odd_colored_eyes.gif

</center> (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif) <table border="0" cellpadding="6" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="28%"> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/normal_thumb.gif (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif) Normal Fruit Flies (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif)
</td> <td width="72%"> <center> </center> These are normal fruit flies, or "wildtypes." Notice that their eye color is bright red. Compare them with the other fruit flies here.</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
(http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif) <table border="0" cellpadding="6" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="28%"> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/orange-eyes_thumb.gif
Orange-Eyed Flies (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/orange-eyes.gif)
</td> <td width="72%"> <center> </center> Notice that these flies have orange eyes. They have a defect in their "white" gene, which normally produces the red pigments in the eye. In these flies, the white gene only works partially, producing fewer red pigments than it should.</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="28%"> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/white-eyes_thumb.gif
White-Eyed Flies (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/white-eyes.gif)


</td> <td width="72%"> <center> These flies have white eyes. Like the orange-eyed flies, they also have a defect in their "white" gene. But in these flies, the white gene is totally defective: it produces no red pigment at all.


</center> </td> </tr> </tbody></table>



http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/strangely_formedheads.gif


<table border="0" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="28%"> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/normal_thumb.gif (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif)
Normal Fruit Flies (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/normal.gif)
</td> <td width="72%"> <center> </center> These are normal fruit flies, or "wildtypes." Notice the antennas sticking out in front of their red eyes. Compare these flies to the other fruit flies here.</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="6" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="28%"> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/eyeless_thumb.gif (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/eyeless.gif)
Eyeless Flies (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/eyeless.gif)
</td> <td width="72%"> <center> </center> Notice that these flies have no eyes. They have a defect in their "eyes absent" gene, which normally instructs cells in the larvae to form an eye. </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table border="0" cellpadding="6" width="98%"> <tbody><tr> <td width="28%"> http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/images/legheaded_thumb.gif
Leg-Headed Flies (http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/legheaded.gif)
</td> <td width="72%"> <center> Notice that these flies have abnormal, leg-like antennas on their foreheads. They have a defect in their "antennapedia" gene (Latin for "antenna-leg"), which normally instructs some body cells to become legs. In these flies, the antennapedia gene falsely instructs cells that would normally form antenna to become legs instead.
</center> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <center>
</center>http://www.exploratorium.edu/exhibits/mutant_flies/mutant_flies.html

But there seem to be more bad mutations tham good ones

[nisse]

But there seem to be more bad mutations tham good ones
Of course. That's why selection is so necessary - most of those flies don't survive or do not breed...some are actually just results of mutagenesis for gene discovery :)

[Loddfafner]

The mutation theory of evolution was the work of Hugo de Vrys early in the twentieth century. Although it has not been entirely refuted, it is neither the argument of Darwin nor of most contemporary evolutionary biologists. It has, however, remained a standard in the more simplistic biology textbooks.

The actual argument for modification by natural selection is that a population varies (we are not all identical clones), and if there are selective pressures on those variations then some varieties will become more common in the population than others. After large numbers of generations over unimaginable stretches of time, there will be some drift in the appearance of an average member of that population.

As a measure of how much time is involved, realize that the Atlantic ocean has been opening at about one inch per year, starting from the time of the dinosaurs.

[nisse]

The actual argument for modification by natural selection is that a population varies (we are not all identical clones), and if there are selective pressures on those variations then some varieties will become more common in the population than others.
How do you/the theory you cite propose the initial variation is created if not through mutation?

I don't know about evolutionary biologists, but in biocomputation and systems biology mutations are still seen as an important part of how a species changes over time.


After large numbers of generations over unimaginable stretches of time, there will be some drift in the appearance of an average member of that population.
Yeah...that's why you look at bacteria and viruses.

[Loddfafner]

Mutation as a word means different things to different people. The kind of mutation that has been effectively ruled out, but persists in popular culture, is that of drastic changes, as of a freakish rodent happening to sprout wings and flying away as a bat. The minor changes in DNA coming from errors in duplication and recombination do certainly add to the stock of variation that goes into incremental change over long periods of time.

As for the argument in the Christian propaganda that started this thread that no positive new traits have been discovered, think only of the emergence and diffusion of adult lactose tolerance.

[Birka]

Its very easy to think of DNA as its own life force.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Of course. That's why selection is so necessary - most of those flies don't survive or do not breed...some are actually just results of mutagenesis for gene discovery :)

Then I lost out:wink
I did a fun and challenge paper at the University on the fruit fly,that shitty insect fascinated me.
There are a number of interbreeding groups regarded as separate species,even though no-one( I believe) has been able to distinguish them by any other physical characteristic.

In my opinion it is of little value to the evolutionist,because it is usually impossible to determine anything directly about the reproduction of extinct planta and animals simply from their fossil remains or the large numbers of plants and animals which do not reproduce sexually.

A population consists of a single species when its members interbreed(producing fertile young) with each other,but not with other such breeding populations

I am not into evolution,but were I,I think I could shatter Darwinism.:D

[Lulletje Rozewater]

The mutation theory of evolution was the work of Hugo de Vrys early in the twentieth century. Although it has not been entirely refuted, it is neither the argument of Darwin nor of most contemporary evolutionary biologists. It has, however, remained a standard in the more simplistic biology textbooks.

The actual argument for modification by natural selection is that a population varies (we are not all identical clones), and if there are selective pressures on those variations then some varieties will become more common in the population than others.After large numbers of generations over unimaginable stretches of time, there will be some drift in the appearance of an average member of that population.

As a measure of how much time is involved, realize that the Atlantic ocean has been opening at about one inch per year, starting from the time of the dinosaurs.

Nice.
I wish to make a remark, so irrelevant that it baffles my brain.
:D:lightbul:

Mutations happen in very short time too. This long generation theory is partly right,or in my mind wrong.
We humans have proven it in dogs and in fruit flies in the laboratory

[Lulletje Rozewater]

Mutation as a word means different things to different people. The kind of mutation that has been effectively ruled out, but persists in popular culture, is that of drastic changes, as of a freakish rodent happening to sprout wings and flying away as a bat. The minor changes in DNA coming from errors in duplication and recombination do certainly add to the stock of variation that goes into incremental change over long periods of time.

As for the argument in the Christian propaganda that started this thread that no positive new traits have been discovered, think only of the emergence and diffusion of adult lactose tolerance.

There are plenty examples of new traits I believe.
It would need a Japanese to tell us which new traits surfaced after the Hiroshima debacle or a Russian.