I2a1b spread in Balkans by Croatian/Serbian royal families?

[Stefan_Dusan]

I see the debate of I2a1b here being centered around it coming from slavic migrations or being Illyrian origin. Often both sides are left with some sticky questions and debate goes relatively unproductive.

For people who purpose it's unconnected to slavic migrations and originated in Balkan, they are left with not having good explanation why almost all I2 in the Balkans is I2a1b. There are other clades in the Balkans (I'm one of them) but they are found in minuscule amounts. There is only two possible explanations, bottle neck or migration. However bottle neck doesn't explain why I2 enjoys greater diversity of clades especially in Moldova. Then there is migration, while it could be another population pre-slavic migrations (goths?), the slavic migrations are the most likely culprit as in present slavic migrations made biggest impact on Balkans and I2(I2a1b) is concentrated with all the southslavic speakers of the western Balkans.

But for people who argue the slavic migrations, they had to explain why I2a1b and not R1a* which is the traditional marker of slavs everywhere but the Balkans. Also I2a1b highest concentration is in mountainous Herzegovina, in the middle of the dinaric alps. Most of the slavs in the migrations were farmers and would have little reason to settle there, rather preferring to settle down river valleys and lowlands of the Balkans. Coincidentally, R1a* is higher in these areas than Herzegovina much like we would expect from slavic migrations. Not to mention that Bulgarians have low I2a1b (though they have higher clades of various other I2) and supposedly slavs were so numerous there, they assimilated their Turkic conquerors!

So instead I want to frame I2a1b arrival in the Balkans with the arrival of Croat and Serbian tribes. Sure Croat/Serbians are slavs but they came to the Balkans in different fashion than majority of slavs who fled Ukraine during Avar invasions. Byzantine rulers invited Croat/Serbian tribal chiefs to settle in principalities along dalmatia and herzegovina (all the way to Montenegro and Rashka) in exchange for military services. The Serbians and Croats who came down to the Balkans lived in tribes which are generally founded by one progenitor. Meaning they would be fairly uniform in male haplogroups, down to a subclade! A similar situation and living style was done by mountain Albanians and explains why Kosovo is now in dramatic majority EV-13 just like Herzegovina is in dramatic majority I2a1b. What's more Croat and Serbian tribes did not come from traditional slavic lands where R1a* would be high but from Eastern Germany where there would be plenty of clades of I2 and I1 in the mix (as well as some R1a*).

[Skerdilaid]

The thing is though, Herzegovina and Montenegro were known to have been Vlahs and Albanian settlements, and these settlement were Warrior tribes. So how do you put this together ?

[Stefan_Dusan]

The thing is though, Herzegovina and Montenegro were known to have been Vlahs and Albanian settlements, and these settlement were Warrior tribes. So how do you put this together ?

No, before Serbs and Croats arrived there was no mention of any Vlah or Albanian warrior tribes. But Serbs and Croats were specifically mentioned by Byzantines as living in warrior tribal subunits. Which is why they were given land in Herzegovina being home to all old Serbian and Croatian principalities.

If you find such a mention of Vlah or Albanian warrior tribes before Serbs or Croats came please post it here.

[Styrian Mujo]

The thing is though, Herzegovina and Montenegro were known to have been Vlahs and Albanian settlements, and these settlement were Warrior tribes. So how do you put this together ?
Slavic rulling class got all the Vlacho-Albanian pussy.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Slavic rulling class got all the Vlacho-Albanian pussy.

That's one more thing, Serbian and Croatian ruling chiefs did not come with women like other slavs fleeing Ukraine would have. They just absorbed the women from the people they ruled. In the case of Dalmatia, Herzegovina, that would be Vlahs. In the case of Rashka and Montenegro that would be Vlahs and *maybe* some Albanians though I believe Albanians were well south at those times, around central Albania.

[Skerdilaid]

No, before Serbs and Croats arrived there was no mention of any Vlah or Albanian warrior tribes. But Serbs and Croats were specifically mentioned by Byzantines as living in warrior tribal subunits. Which is why they were given land in Herzegovina being home to all old Serbian and Croatian principalities.

If you find such a mention of Vlah or Albanian warrior tribes before Serbs or Croats came please post it here.

I am not with my computer right now, but Vlahs of Herzegovina were a menace in that region until late 1800s. There are plenty history books that mention this, they also spoke their language too, I believe. Some Albanian tribes migrated into Malesia in middle ages from Herzegovina.

[Skerdilaid]

Slavic rulling class got all the Vlacho-Albanian pussy.

I think it's the other way around, my farming friend;)

[Stefan_Dusan]

I think it's the other way around, my farming friend;)

Maybe you should explain how I2a1b is 70% in Herzegovina alone ;)

[Styrian Mujo]

I think it's the other way around, my farming friend;)
Well if I2a1b is Slavic than it basically means Slavs fucked their way to the Adriatic:)

[Skerdilaid]

Maybe you should explain how I2a1b is 70% in Herzegovina alone ;)

I think you should, since you started this:D I just wanted to point out that fact.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I am not with my computer right now, but Vlahs of Herzegovina were a menace in that region until late 1800s. There are plenty history books that mention this, they also spoke their language too, I believe. Some Albanian tribes migrated into Malesia in middle ages from Herzegovina.

Vlahs are sheepherders, they did not live in warrior military tribal units. Before Serbs/Croats settled, by all accounts (lack there of) Byzantine rulers recorded the region as peaceful and prosperous. Albanians are not recorded by Byzantines to be in Herzegovina, in fact not at all until 1093 and then in central Albania. If current Albanian tribes in Malesia have progenitors from Herzegovina that likelihood indicates their progenitors were Slavo-Vlahs which may explain some culture similarities such as gusle/gusla ;)

[Styrian Mujo]

I still don't understand why were Serbs I2a1b and not R1a?

[Skerdilaid]

Well if I2a1b is Slavic than it basically means Slavs fucked their way to the Adriatic:)

You keep forgetting that you came to balkans to supply women to the warlike Huns. So who was doing the fucking?;)

[Kastrioti1443]

That's one more thing, Serbian and Croatian ruling chiefs did not come with women like other slavs fleeing Ukraine would have. They just absorbed the women from the people they ruled. In the case of Dalmatia, Herzegovina, that would be Vlahs. In the case of Rashka and Montenegro that would be Vlahs and *maybe* some Albanians though I believe Albanians were well south at those times, around central Albania.

The albanian Gheg center and realm has always been what is today Northern Albania, NorthWestern FYROM ( called Dibra e Madhe by us), South Montenegro, Western Kosovo ( all highlands). These places have always been albanian highlanders realm. The center of Gheg Albanians in the early middle ages was Mirdita.

However your theory is interesting.

[Skerdilaid]

Vlahs are sheepherders, they did not live in warrior military tribal units. Before Serbs/Croats settled, by all accounts (lack there of) Byzantine rulers recorded the region as peaceful and prosperous. Albanians are not recorded by Byzantines to be in Herzegovina, in fact not at all until 1093 and then in central Albania. If current Albanian tribes in Malesia have progenitors from Herzegovina that likelihood indicates their progenitors were Slavo-Vlahs which may explain some culture similarities such as gusle/gusla ;)

At that time they were even recorded in Dalmatia.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I still don't understand why were Serbs I2a1b and not R1a?

Because original Serb tribe (and Croat, who were closely related, maybe even one tribe) are descended from one progenitor who was I2a1b. The tribal structure explains the uniformity it does not explain why the progenitor was I2a1b. That's anyones guess. But since Serb/Croat tribes came from east Germany, subclades of I2 were more likely than subclades of R1a.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

You keep forgetting that you came to balkans to supply women to the warlike Huns. So who was doing the fucking?;)

Albanians apparently took care of breeding the women, as always.

[Stefan_Dusan]

You keep forgetting that you came to balkans to supply women to the warlike Huns. So who was doing the fucking?;)

I2a1b is a paternal haplogroup meaning it's only passed from father to son. It indicates that I2a1b spread the haplogroup (male Serbs/Croats) with native Balkan women. This is not something you can deny Skerdi xD Unless you want to claim I2a1b is Illyrian and always there which then I point you to my original post.

[albosomething]

Anyone heard about forty fifty Slavic sluts. IF you hear about them let me know about it.

they escaped from my brothel.

[Kastrioti1443]

I think it's the other way around, my farming friend;)

He might be right actually.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Because original Serb tribe (and Croat, who were closely related, maybe even one tribe) are descended from one progenitor who was I2a1b. The tribal structure explains the uniformity it does not explain why the progenitor was I2a1b. That's anyones guess. But since Serb/Croat tribes came from east Germany, subclades of I2 were more likely than subclades of R1a.

Don't tell me you connect today Sorb people of East Germany with Serb tribes at that time...Serbs came first and foremost from today Iran from Serbos or Serboi tribe.

[Styrian Mujo]

Don't tell me you connect today Sorb people of East Germany with Serb tribes at that time...Serbs came first and foremost from today Iran from Serbos or Serboi tribe.
Iran is not a likely Indo-European homeland.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Don't tell me you connect today Sorb people of East Germany with Serb tribes at that time...Serbs came first and foremost from today Iran from Serbos or Serboi tribe.

I do as did the Byzantines who invited Croat/Serbs down into the Balkans. Where Serbs were before East Germany is anyone's guess. The Iran theory is just stupid and based on word collision, similar to the theory that Albanians came from Albania in the Kavkaz xD

But not to Sorbs specifically. But they probably took the name similarly. The Sorbs are a prideful people, maintaining their slavic identity in Germany over many attempts by Germans to Germanize them. Even after Hitler they still exist.

[Skerdilaid]

Chill guys, lets not derail the topic, Stefan has touched some good points. I just wanted to mention that fact.

[Kastrioti1443]

Vlahs are sheepherders, they did not live in warrior military tribal units. Before Serbs/Croats settled, by all accounts (lack there of) Byzantine rulers recorded the region as peaceful and prosperous. Albanians are not recorded by Byzantines to be in Herzegovina, in fact not at all until 1093 and then in central Albania. If current Albanian tribes in Malesia have progenitors from Herzegovina that likelihood indicates their progenitors were Slavo-Vlahs which may explain some culture similarities such as gusle/gusla ;)

To be sincere every albanian tribe has people who came from Hercegovina, not just Malsia. A lot of people still record the tales of the great migrations of albanians in the south from Hercegovina by the legendary tales of Muji and Halili, and the Epos of the Kreshniks ( brave people in albanian). Lahuta was played all over albanian highlands, but during ottoman times, maybe Ciftelia became more common for some reason. Lahuta was played a lot evan among Pukjans who do not have people from Hercegovina.

IMO Lahuta or Gusla is an old indoeuropean instrument.

[Skerdilaid]

I2a1b is a paternal haplogroup meaning it's only passed from father to son. It indicates that I2a1b spread the haplogroup (male Serbs/Croats) with native Balkan women. This is not something you can deny Skerdi xD Unless you want to claim I2a1b is Illyrian and always there which then I point you to my original post.

Well this could be, but what happened to the Vlahs? and don't forget that Serbs from these regions are Balkanian in mentality and traditions, nothing Slav about them.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

I do as did the Byzantines who invited Croat/Serbs down into the Balkans. Where Serbs were before East Germany is anyone's guess. The Iran theory is just stupid and based on word collision, similar to the theory that Albanians came from Albania in the Kavkaz xD

But not to Sorbs specifically. But they probably took the name similarly. The Sorbs are a prideful people, maintaining their slavic identity in Germany over many attempts by Germans to Germanize them. Even after Hitler they still exist.

lool

Thus could be explained your obsessive connection with Goths, you do have some Sci-Fi theories gotta admit that. :laugh:

[Stefan_Dusan]

Well this could be, but what happened to the Vlahs? and don't forget that Serbs from these regions are Balkanian in mentality and traditions, nothing Slav about them.

One could argue that Serbs from those region are the purest Serbs and they have preserved the Serbian culture the best compared to others who are essentially, the farther you get away from Herzegovina/Montenegro more and more assimilated into Serbian ethnos, at least going by male haplogroups. You want to argue that their customs are Balkan because northern Albanian tribes have some similarities. But in reality you have no proof it's originally from the Balkans. Now ofc, it's Balkan as it's been there for at least 1000 years.

The Vlahs have been absorbed, likely male Serb, female Vlah.


lool

Thus could be explained your obsessive connection with Goths, you do have some Sci-Fi theories gotta admit that. :laugh:

I mentioned Goths once in this thread which is probably once of 10 of all my posts on apricity. I'm obsessed with Celts :laugh:

[Skerdilaid]

Vlahs are sheepherders, they did not live in warrior military tribal units. Before Serbs/Croats settled, by all accounts (lack there of) Byzantine rulers recorded the region as peaceful and prosperous. Albanians are not recorded by Byzantines to be in Herzegovina, in fact not at all until 1093 and then in central Albania. If current Albanian tribes in Malesia have progenitors from Herzegovina that likelihood indicates their progenitors were Slavo-Vlahs which may explain some culture similarities such as gusle/gusla ;)

Here is a bit about the Vlahs of Hercegovina:http://books.google.ca/books?id=Cvk6oMf9R7AC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=Morlachs+of+Hercegovina&source=bl&ots=_FVHXfSGVP&sig=J-PNb_fS8dxdQYtdqXhPLG_M8FE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ka4bU4qzK9jroASi7oHYAQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Morlachs%20of%20Hercegovina&f=false

[RandoBloom]

I see the debate of I2a1b here being centered around it coming from slavic migrations or being Illyrian origin. Often both sides are left with some sticky questions and debate goes relatively unproductive.

For people who purpose it's unconnected to slavic migrations and originated in Balkan, they are left with not having good explanation why almost all I2 in the Balkans is I2a1b. There are other clades in the Balkans (I'm one of them) but they are found in minuscule amounts. There is only two possible explanations, bottle neck or migration. However bottle neck doesn't explain why I2 enjoys greater diversity of clades especially in Moldova. Then there is migration, while it could be another population pre-slavic migrations (goths?), the slavic migrations are the most likely culprit as in present slavic migrations made biggest impact on Balkans and I2(I2a1b) is concentrated with all the southslavic speakers of the western Balkans.

But for people who argue the slavic migrations, they had to explain why I2a1b and not R1a* which is the traditional marker of slavs everywhere but the Balkans. Also I2a1b highest concentration is in mountainous Herzegovina, in the middle of the dinaric alps. Most of the slavs in the migrations were farmers and would have little reason to settle there, rather preferring to settle down river valleys and lowlands of the Balkans. Coincidentally, R1a* is higher in these areas than Herzegovina much like we would expect from slavic migrations. Not to mention that Bulgarians have low I2a1b (though they have higher clades of various other I2) and supposedly slavs were so numerous there, they assimilated their Turkic conquerors!

So instead I want to frame I2a1b arrival in the Balkans with the arrival of Croat and Serbian tribes. Sure Croat/Serbians are slavs but they came to the Balkans in different fashion than majority of slavs who fled Ukraine during Avar invasions. Byzantine rulers invited Croat/Serbian tribal chiefs to settle in principalities along dalmatia and herzegovina (all the way to Montenegro and Rashka) in exchange for military services. The Serbians and Croats who came down to the Balkans lived in tribes which are generally founded by one progenitor. Meaning they would be fairly uniform in male haplogroups, down to a subclade! A similar situation and living style was done by mountain Albanians and explains why Kosovo is now in dramatic majority EV-13 just like Herzegovina is in dramatic majority I2a1b. What's more Croat and Serbian tribes did not come from traditional slavic lands where R1a* would be high but from Eastern Germany where there would be plenty of clades of I2 and I1 in the mix (as well as some R1a*).

So being invited somewhere changes your genes :laugh:
Not to mention that the spike points of I2 are nowhere near Slavic areas, but in Illyrian areas.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Here is a bit about the Vlahs of Hercegovina:http://books.google.ca/books?id=Cvk6oMf9R7AC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=Morlachs+of+Hercegovina&source=bl&ots=_FVHXfSGVP&sig=J-PNb_fS8dxdQYtdqXhPLG_M8FE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ka4bU4qzK9jroASi7oHYAQ&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Morlachs%20of%20Hercegovina&f=false

Interesting but it mentions that the Vlahs of Herzegovina were brought by Ottomans in 1460 to areas devastated by warfare. They were brought from eastern Serbia more speficially so I guess in this case those new Vlachs were selected in cases by Ottomans to settle Herzegovina, selected for their military formation while more peaceful Vlachs were left alone. Those Vlachs btw would intermarry with Slavic tribes and eventually become Serbs in Eastern Bosnia, however I2a1b is lower here (maybe 50%) and EV-13 is a bit higher, suggesting their legacy.

[Stefan_Dusan]

So being invited somewhere changes your genes :laugh:


So butthurt you try to desperately troll :laugh:

[Kastrioti1443]

One could argue that Serbs from those region are the purest Serbs and they have preserved the Serbian culture the best compared to others who are essentially, the farther you get away from Herzegovina/Montenegro more and more assimilated into Serbian ethnos, at least going by male haplogroups. You want to argue that their customs are Balkan because northern Albanian tribes have some similarities. But in reality you have no proof it's originally from the Balkans. Now ofc, it's Balkan as it's been there for at least 1000 years.

The Vlahs have been absorbed, likely male Serb, female Vlah.



I mentioned Goths once in this thread which is probably once of 10 of all my posts on apricity. I'm obsessed with Celts :laugh:


The same balkan warlike mentality is among Mountain Tosks called Labs and Mallakastriots. In Laberia, where my mother is from, Kanun was applied 100% till 1945.... Among Labs, The Kanun is called '' Kanuni Pirrit", that means the Kanun of Pyrros of Epirus ;). ( They are the lightest and tallest Tosks also, probably because Vlachs or other Orthodox Levantines never stepped in these mountains).

http://www.albanianphotos.net/images/photos/thumbnails/LABERIA_600x0_w_3aa3bb71cc4c285a6d9f63cfdc763fdc.j pg

[Skerdilaid]

Interesting but it mentions that the Vlahs of Herzegovina were brought by Ottomans in 1460 to areas devastated by warfare. They were brought from eastern Serbia more speficially so I guess in this case those new Vlachs were selected in cases by Ottomans to settle Herzegovina, selected for their military formation while more peaceful Vlachs were left alone. Those Vlachs btw would intermarry with Slavic tribes and eventually become Serbs in Eastern Bosnia, however I2a1b is lower here (maybe 50%) and EV-13 is a bit higher, suggesting their legacy.

Not really, it's states that there are many records on Ragusa and Zadar of them from 12 century. They settled the low lands during Ottomans, while the mountains were their homeland. Also, check out the section where it mentions that they were mercenaries for Byzantines and later Serb kings.

So in all, I don't know how this translates into genes, make out of it whatever you like:D

[Stefan_Dusan]

The same balkan warlike mentality is among Mountain Tosks called Labs and Mallakastriots. In Laberia, where my mother is from, Kanun was applied 100% till 1945.... Among Labs, The Kanun is called '' Kanuni Pirrit", that means the Kanun of Pyrros of Epirus ;). ( They are the lightest and tallest Tosks also, probably because Vlachs or other Orthodox Levantines never stepped in these mountains).

in Herzegovina, ironically, Serbs there are some of the darker. But very tall. Same goes in Montenegro, Serbs there are very tall but in general darker. I'm often mistaken for Montenegrin, I get that I look like Njegosh for example all the time, and that's pretty much because I'm tall, somewhat tann/swarthy and very dinarid. All my father's family is very dinaric for some reason. I could take chinese woman, our son would probably still be dinarid xD

[Stefan_Dusan]

Not really, it's states that there are many records on Ragusa and Zadar of them from 12 century. They settled the low lands during Ottomans, while the mountains were their homeland.

The specific example of the Morlachs were taken from around Smederevo according to the source.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

I mentioned Goths once in this thread which is probably once of 10 of all my posts on apricity. I'm obsessed with Celts :laugh:

Any Paleo-Balkanite tribe obsession?! or you leave it only with Celts, for now. :D

[Stefan_Dusan]

Any Paleo-Balkanite tribe obsession?! or you leave it only with Celts, for now. :D

Haha Celts are obsession continued from my father but also my genetics. I'm very "Western European" in genetics for a person from Balkans. On global similarity map, I plot west of Albanians who plot west of Serbians on my 23andMe. Which makes sense why Albanians plot west than the other Serbs (less slavic blood) doesn't make sense why I plot west of Albanians though as Serb xD

[Skerdilaid]

The specific example of the Morlachs were taken from around Smederevo according to the source.

Only in the eastern part.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Only in the eastern part.

Well the Morlachs in entirety came from Smederevo area. Interesting they all have Serbian names indicating they were Serbs already. I think they were called Vlachs by the Bosnians out of prejudice.

Your source mentions other Vlahs but none of them were as brutal as the Morlachs according to even your source ;)

[Kastrioti1443]

in Herzegovina, ironically, Serbs there are some of the darker. But very tall. Same goes in Montenegro, Serbs there are very tall but in general darker. I'm often mistaken for Montenegrin, I get that I look like Njegosh for example all the time, and that's pretty much because I'm tall, somewhat tann/swarthy and very dinarid. All my father's family is very dinaric for some reason. I could take chinese woman, our son would probably still be dinarid xD

I do not know, but Vlachs I know are exotic people....

However Labs are very Dinarid also, but light eyes are common among these people, especially if you consider how much in south they are and in what climate they live.... Look at this clip, they are almost all Labs... the old man in the begging, the female singer and the crowd after 4:25, you see even Nordids:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fpht0xK-v4




On the other hand these are Mallakstriots, the Labs of Hills ( not very pure Labs), exclude the groom or someone else in the crowd who are Jevgs ( Ashkalis)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfeYUEVNdMM

[RandoBloom]

So butthurt you try to desperately troll :laugh:

No, explain. How did slavs change their genes overnight by being invited rather than forced out acording to you

[Stefan_Dusan]

According to some scholars, the etymology point to a possible Vlach (Aromanian) origin.[citation needed]
The population migrated from the Serbian lands, amid and after the Ottoman Empire's conquering of those lands.[citation needed]
The Croatians historically used the term "Vlach" for anyone who professed the Orthodox faith as opposed to Catholicism. Vlachs, referring to pastoralists, was a common name for Serbs in the Ottoman Empire and later.[a]
Italian Alberto Fortis mentioned the Morlachs in his 1774 work "Put po Dalmaciji";[1] he found that they sang beautiful verses of Serb epic poetry related to the Turkish occupation of Serbian Kosovo (Kosovo cycle).[2] They sang the verses along with the traditional single stringed instrument called gusle.[2] The poetry was collected by the Scottish man-of-letters Lord Bute, who was close to King George III.[2] Contemporary I. Lovrić, said that the Morlachs were Slavs who spoke better Slavic than the Ragusians (owing to the growing Italianization of the Dalmatian coast). He claimed the ethnonym "Morlaci" was derived from the word more (sea) and laci meaning "strong".[1] Lovrić made no distinction between the Vlachs/Morlachs and the Dalmatians and Montenegrins that were also mentioned (peoples of Croatia and Slavonia were not mentioned), he was not at all bothered by the fact that the Morlachs were predominantly Orthodox Christian.[1]
Boško Desnica (1886-1945), after analysing Venetian papers, concluded that they always mentioned the script and language of the Morlachs as "Servian".[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs

Interesting I didn't know that Smederevo had tradition of gusle/gusla :D Shows you something, they're originally from Kosovo. A branch of my family tree settled in that area during Serbian migration. So I'm guessing many Serbs from Kosovo did as well. I'm starting to think Kosovo was center of the gusle/gusla and Kosovo Serbs brought it to other lands such as Montenegro, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Lika in Croatia, and now Smederevo Serbia.

[Stefan_Dusan]

No, explain. How did slavs change their genes overnight by being invited rather than forced out acording to you

They didn't change their genes idiot. Not every slav has R1a*. :laugh:

[Stefan_Dusan]

but light eyes are common among these people,

Most of my father's side have blue eyes. Whereas most of my mother's side have brown eyes. I take my mother's side color.

One striking thing to me, when I visited family last year, I met my father's aunt. She was very tall and strongly built woman. Her hands were huge, like guy's hands. Worn from working the farm (on my father's side, this is considered woman work). her skin burnt brown from ages of being exposed in the sun. You could say her skin was wrinkled and smooth brown. But she had piercing blue eyes that stood in weird contrast to all that.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I am pretty sure it's been there forever.

In megalithic farming sites I2 is pretty much the normal for ancient DNA. West balkans is very likely where first neolithic farmers came out of. It's where earliest bronze age artifacts exist and very close to the very earliest known farming site in the whole world.

People assuming ev-13 is some farming clade is also a big assumption. It looks to have been kinda scattered in ancient DNA but doesn't dominate anywhere. E probably spread out with pastoral types, not farmers. Farming also did not spread to europe via land as previously theorized, we know that's wrong now so that kills a lot of clades that are supposed to be neolithic farmer clades.

Medieval type migrations were not nearly as extreme as further back in time and probably had much less effect, and many migrations seem to be periodic back and forth ones due to climate change and invasion routes.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I am pretty sure it's been there forever.

If it's been there forever, you mean it originated there. If it originated there, means I2a1b, which is a mutation of I2, we should also see I2b* and I2c* clades. More or less full diversity there because the longer it resides, the more probability for mutation and new clades. However, vast vast vast majority of people are I2a1b. Arguing for migration and founder effect.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

If it's been there forever, you mean it originated there. If it originated there, means I2a1b, which is a mutation of I2, we should also see I2b* and I2c* clades. More or less full diversity there because the longer it resides, the more probability for mutation and new clades. However, vast vast vast majority of people are I2a1b. Arguing for migration and founder effect.

No, it's separation that makes new clades, not being in one place. Otherwise clade spread would be much more random and not clumped together.

Thta's because of how genetic drift works. In smaller groups like a few thousand, eventually a mutation spreads to everyone, or goes away completely.

[Stefan_Dusan]

No, it's separation that makes new clades, not being in one place. Otherwise clade spread would be much more random and not clumped together.

No what makes new clades are mutations. However mutations are rare, and them "sticking" in population even rarer (say the son with mutated clade, i.e new clade, doesn't have kids). So what leads to new clades is simply time. The longer something is there, the more diversity we see.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

No what makes new clades are mutations. However mutations are rare, and them "sticking" in population even rarer (say the son with mutated clade, i.e new clade, doesn't have kids). So what leads to new clades is simply time. The longer something is there, the more diversity we see.

No, that is not true. There's mutations ALL THE TIME but 99%+ fall out. I know exactly what I am talking about. Clades form due to genetic drift, but that is not the same as saying it's all random though. It means usually mutations die quickly, and other times they get lucky and take over the whole tow/tribe/whatever so long as group is not too large. In modern times there is not really any genetic drift because numbers are too high.

If what you said is true there would be no discernable pattern to different subclades on a map because no subclade would EVER get enough numbers to dominate the original clade, but they generally radiate out of differing areas, instead.

If your theory about a minor migration were true, too, then the current locations of all clades would be completely meaningless as well.

[RandoBloom]

They didn't change their genes idiot. Not every slav has R1a*. :laugh:

Every majority slavic country has R1 genes. So it leads R1 is slavic thus I2 isnt.
Enough said.

[Stefan_Dusan]

No, that is not true.

The only way to get a new clade is mutation. Simple as that. Without a mutation the haplogroups will stay the same until time immortal. You could colonize Mars and the haplogroups will be the same of the people who brought them there. Your right that not all mutated clades stick in a population, but that's fine. Evantually some will. That's the time game.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Every majority slavic country has R1 genes. So it leads R1 is slavic thus I2 isnt.
Enough said.

In majority slavic countries, something like 50% of the people are R1a. Other 20% are I2. Just so happened that Serbian and Croatian progenitor was I2 who founded Serbian and Croatian settlements along the coast in western Balkans. It's very much slavic. But it's even worse than that. It's very much Serbian and Croatian :laugh:

[Skerdilaid]

Vlahs are sheepherders, they did not live in warrior military tribal units. Before Serbs/Croats settled, by all accounts (lack there of) Byzantine rulers recorded the region as peaceful and prosperous. Albanians are not recorded by Byzantines to be in Herzegovina, in fact not at all until 1093 and then in central Albania. If current Albanian tribes in Malesia have progenitors from Herzegovina that likelihood indicates their progenitors were Slavo-Vlahs which may explain some culture similarities such as gusle/gusla ;)

Being Shepherd has nothing to do with anything, because just as I showed your earlier in Herzegovina and even in Greece where they were numerous, they were fierce warriors,just like Albanians. Albanians ethnogenesis is believed to be in the Dinaric chain and specifically Malesia-South Montenegro and into Dalmatia even touching Herzegovina. In 1300s Albanians are recorded to have lived in the Dalmatian hinterland. Albanian language would have had no chance to survive in central Albania during the height of Roman empire. And the traditions that Montes and Vlahs of Herzegovina had that are similar to Albanian traditions were pure Paleo-Balkan in origin. Simple fact that you can't find similar traditions among other Slavs and these traditions stretch all the way into Peloponnese with Albanian population, this should tell you something. Here read this wiki article, even though it's wiki it touches few points: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians

[Stefan_Dusan]

Being Shepherd has nothing to do with anything, because just as I showed your earlier in Herzegovina and even in Greece where they were numerous, they were fierce warriors,just like Albanians. Albanians ethnogenesis is believed to be in the Dinaric chain and specifically Malesia-South Montenegro and into Dalmatia even touching Herzegovina. In 1300s Albanians are recorded to have lived in the Dalmatian hinterland. Albanian language would have had no chance to survive in central Albania during the height of Roman empire. And the traditions that Montes and Vlahs of Herzegovina had that are similar to Albanian traditions were pure Paleo-Balkan in origin. Simple fact that you can't find similar traditions among other Slavs and these traditions stretch all the way into Peloponnese with Albanian population, this should tell you something. Here read this wiki article, even though it's wiki it touches few points: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians

Well the "Vlahs" are not from Herzegovina. Even your source says the Morlachs, which they explain as the most warlike, were resettled from Smederevo. I posted a source however that clearly explains Vlah was a slur for all Orthodox by Croats and that the Morlachs weren't Aromanians at all, but Serbian speaking, Serbian named, singing about Kosovo battle and Serbian heroes.

Anyways Albanian ethnogensis is completely off-topic. I do remember you getting into argument with Petros about Illyrian-Thracian-Dacian and posting some Austrian linguist who made arguments that Albanians are from Kruja area. It bears noting that during Scanderbeg's rebellion he controlled only immediate areas around Kruja. Schkodra for example was under domain of Crnojevici who were Montenegrin Serb ruling family. They were the ones who defended Shkodra and lost it to the Ottomans in 1500s. Your wikipedia source has most theories for Albanian ethnogenisis to be around Jirecek line which is well south of Herzegovina, even northern Albania. So how you come to conclusion is beyond me but unimportant to this thread.

As to the traditions, I already mentioned to you Cossacks but in all honesty, like everything Serbian tribal traditions is a mixture of Serbian, Slavic and Vlah traditions as our Serbian people in general. Noel Malcolm makes one interesting point on Illyrians and that was their tribes were not along family lines but large geographic areas and functioned like pseudo-nation-states. Gusle/Gusla which is so widespread in all Serbian areas and used as reciting family history, is recorded by Byzantines as coming with slavs, specifically Serbians in Kosovo. There is source, I will try to find, where one Byzantine soldier captures some Sklaveni in Dardania/Kosovo and remarks with amusement on the instrument he got from them. But anyways Byzantines recorded the Serbs as warlike tribal organization before they came to the Balkans. Whereas the Vlahs living around Herzegovina are not mentioned in any negative light at all. If these Vlahs were dangerous to Byzantine authority, they don't mention it leading up to the Serbian/Croatian settlements.

[Skerdilaid]

Well the "Vlahs" are not from Herzegovina. Even your source says the Morlachs, which they explain as the most warlike, were resettled from Smederevo. I posted a source however that clearly explains Vlah was a slur for all Orthodox by Croats and that the Morlachs weren't Aromanians at all, but Serbian speaking, Serbian named, singing about Kosovo battle and Serbian heroes.

Anyways Albanian ethnogensis is completely off-topic. I do remember you getting into argument with Petros about Illyrian-Thracian-Dacian and posting some Austrian linguist who made arguments that Albanians are from Kruja area. It bears noting that during Scanderbeg's rebellion he controlled only immediate areas around Kruja. Schkodra for example was under domain of Crnojevici who were Montenegrin Serb ruling family. They were the ones who defended Shkodra and lost it to the Ottomans in 1500s. Your wikipedia source has most theories for Albanian ethnogenisis to be around Jirecek line which is well south of Herzegovina, even northern Albania. So how you come to conclusion is beyond me but unimportant to this thread.

As to the traditions, I already mentioned to you Cossacks but in all honesty, like everything Serbian tribal traditions is a mixture of Serbian, Slavic and Vlah traditions as our Serbian people in general. Noel Malcolm makes one interesting point on Illyrians and that was their tribes were not along family lines but large geographic areas and functioned like pseudo-nation-states. Gusle/Gusla which is so widespread in all Serbian areas and used as reciting family history, is recorded by Byzantines as coming with slavs, specifically Serbians in Kosovo. There is source, I will try to find, where one Byzantine soldier captures some Sklaveni in Dardania/Kosovo and remarks with amusement on the instrument he got from them. But anyways Byzantines recorded the Serbs as warlike tribal organization before they came to the Balkans. Whereas the Vlahs living around Herzegovina are not mentioned in any negative light at all. If these Vlahs were dangerous to Byzantine authority, they don't mention it leading up to the Serbian/Croatian settlements.

Read the article carefully, some Vlahs were settled and he states that they were called Martolosi, and they could have been mixed too. Mavrovlahs in Herzegonia are mentioned by Ragusan documents in early 12 century. What does that tell you about early Serbs? Exactly as I have told you before, Serbs were created in that region with a huge infusion of Vlah and other Balkan elements.

Yes, it's off topic so we can discus that somewhere else. Scodra was taken from Venetians by Ottomans in 1478, Cernjovic never held Scodra. Balsa did but he gave it Venetians for protection. Now what Balsa was is more complex, but I suggest you check out the "Statutes of Scutari".

I know how Byzantines recorded Slavs in general, all tribes combined, but what you seem to be missing or shall I say dismissing is that the Balkaners prior to Slavic arrival were warriors mainly. Also, you seem to suggest that no population lived in the Dinaric chain up to the Slavic arrival, and I tell you that you are very wrong, my friend. There are cities in Malesia that pre-date Roman arrival, and the culture has not changed according to Anthropologists, even Coon mentioned that and compares the skeletons found there with the current inhabitants. If you study their military structure you would understand that these people were Byzantine mercenaries, almost all words regarding military they used were actually Greek and only later the Slavic influence is visible. Serbs did not enter Kosova until early 13th century...

[RandoBloom]

In majority slavic countries, something like 50% of the people are R1a. Other 20% are I2. Just so happened that Serbian and Croatian progenitor was I2 who founded Serbian and Croatian settlements along the coast in western Balkans. It's very much slavic. But it's even worse than that. It's very much Serbian and Croatian :laugh:

If Serbs decide to move to Slovenia, are you saying that from all the Serbs, only the same minority genome will become majority and move?
How stupid are you exactly?
R1a is slavic. I2 isnt.
They have different points of origin and different carriers

[justme]

If Serbs decide to move to Slovenia, are you saying that from all the Serbs, only the same minority genome will become majority and move?
How stupid are you exactly?
R1a is slavic. I2 isnt.
They have different points of origin and different carriers
I'm sorry to hurt your feeling but that haplogroup is also high in Ukraine and Russia has about 20-23% it's common in other Slavic countries too as well.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Read the article carefully, some Vlahs were settled and he states that they were called Martolosi, and they could have been mixed too. Mavrovlahs in Herzegonia are mentioned by Ragusan documents in early 12 century. What does that tell you about early Serbs? Exactly as I have told you before, Serbs were created in that region with a huge infusion of Vlah and other Balkan elements.

Not only were they settled they weren't Vlahs. Like you think they are. They were Orthodox Serbs which Croatians and their documents refer to Vlahs. Back in those times, where ethnic groups didn't exist in current sense, people were categorized by their religion or profession. Since many Serbs were Orthodox Christian pastoralist they were called Vlahs. Morlaci were from Smederevo (ultimately from Kosovo), had Serbian names, spoke Serbian and not Aromanian language. In what way were they Vlah?


Yes, it's off topic so we can discus that somewhere else. Scodra was taken from Venetians by Ottomans in 1478, Cernjovic never held Scodra. Balsa did but he gave it Venetians for protection. Now what Balsa was is more complex, but I suggest you check out the "Statutes of Scutari".

Ivan Crnojevic was the principal defender of Shkodra. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Shkodra


I know how Byzantines recorded Slavs in general, all tribes combined, but what you seem to be missing or shall I say dismissing is that the Balkaners prior to Slavic arrival were warriors mainly. Also, you seem to suggest that no population lived in the Dinaric chain up to the Slavic arrival, and I tell you that you are very wrong, my friend. There are cities in Malesia that pre-date Roman arrival, and the culture has not changed according to Anthropologists, even Coon mentioned that and compares the skeletons found there with the current inhabitants. If you study their military structure you would understand that these people were Byzantine mercenaries, almost all words regarding military they used were actually Greek and only later the Slavic influence is visible. Serbs did not enter Kosova until early 13th century...

Well Byzantine accounts of their empire don't show any unrest in the local population. The unrest came from Avars, goths, slavs, etc who Byzantines blamed for loss of security of their lands. When Byzantine did hire Mercs, it was Serb/Croat tribe in far away place. Why not hire the closer Vlahs?

Obviously there were people in the Byzantines and they became observed. No one here is saying Serbians etc don't have Balkan blood in them. However the point of this thread is to explain prevalence of I2a1b in Herzegovina, 70% in some areas. And that was spread by Serbian/Croatian men with probably local women. Just because you have it today doesn't mean your genetically original Serb, just like a surname it points to an origin but not so much your genetics today. DrawingLive is great example, he carries this, probably at one point in distant past his ancestor on his male line was Serb or Croat. Now after generations of taking Albanian women, forgetting about their origins, he is now genetically and culturally Albanian.

[Skerdilaid]

=Stefan_Dusan;2475814]Not only were they settled they weren't Vlahs. Like you think they are. They were Orthodox Serbs which Croatians and their documents refer to Vlahs. Back in those times, where ethnic groups didn't exist in current sense, people were categorized by their religion or profession. Since many Serbs were Orthodox Christian pastoralist they were called Vlahs. Morlaci were from Smederevo (ultimately from Kosovo), had Serbian names, spoke Serbian and not Aromanian language. In what way were they Vlah?

To tell you the truth, I have lost you a bit here...During middle ages the term "Serb" was a religious connotation, in most cases and was used quite often on the Subjects of the Serbian Orthodox Church. As I said go read more about them and you will see that they have always inhabited that region, just like Albanians. No Serb or Slav was called a Vlah, the other way around happened a lot, because in order to be called a Vlah you had to speak a Romance language, which they did. Serbs nor Croats spoke a Romance language! Mavrovlahs spoke the language, but once they started mixing with Slavs they lost it, and there are records that they spoke the language until recently. Albanians in Kosova during Dusan adopted the Slavic names too, and later by Ottomans were grouped as Serbs because of their religion. Also, Albanians from Kosova sang songs for the Kosova battle, and we still do. So, this does not say anything because the battle was fought by all groups that inhabited that region.


Ivan Crnojevic was the principal defender of Shkodra. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Shkodra

I read the wiki article, and nowhere does it state that Crnojevic held Scodra, he did however fight in Zabljak. He was in the Albanian League of Lezh too, but his role was minuscule. After the death of Skenderbeg, Lek Dukagjini took command of the Leagues army, and he played the most important role during those days, prior to their collapse, which after that he moved into Malesia.


Well Byzantine accounts of their empire don't show any unrest in the local population. The unrest came from Avars, goths, slavs, etc who Byzantines blamed for loss of security of their lands. When Byzantine did hire Mercs, it was Serb/Croat tribe in far away place. Why not hire the closer Vlahs?


They were hired, hence their military structure, and as I told you before most terms to their military structure were actually Greek, but you just by passed this...

Obviously there were people in the Byzantines and they became observed. No one here is saying Serbians etc don't have Balkan blood in them. However the point of this thread is to explain prevalence of I2a1b in Herzegovina, 70% in some areas. And that was spread by Serbian/Croatian men with probably local women. Just because you have it today doesn't mean your genetically original Serb, just like a surname it points to an origin but not so much your genetics today. DrawingLive is great example, he carries this, probably at one point in distant past his ancestor on his male line was Serb or Croat. Now after generations of taking Albanian women, forgetting about their origins, he is now genetically and culturally Albanian.

I have stated before that I don't care much about genetic stuff. You can take it as you wish, and I wanted to point it out to you that Herzegovina was not purely Slavic as you were portraying, according to your theory perhaps we all are Serbs......;)

[Stefan_Dusan]

No Serb or Slav was called a Vlah,

I just posted you a source that explains very clearly they did! Vlah was a term Croats used for everyone belonging to the Orthodox church. Specifically if they were pastoralists. Those "Vlahs" in your source came from Smederevo, and had Serbian names, and sang about Kosovo battle and Serbian heroes. Why would Aromanians have Serbian names?

Anyways they're not from the mountains of Herzegovina.


I read the wiki article, and nowhere does it state that Crnojevic held Scodra, he did however fight in Zabljak. He was in the Albanian League of Lezh too, but his role was minuscule. After the death of Skenderbeg, Lek Dukagjini took command of the Leagues army, and he played the most important role during those days, prior to their collapse, which after that he moved into Malesia.

Shkodra was in the realm of Zeta in the middle ages. Which is why Montenegrins tried to take it (and did for brief time before they were forced to hand it back) during the first Balkan war. They felt it was part of their old kingdom and they wanted it back. Ofc demographics changed profoundly in Shkodra, or you can claim it never did and Montenegrins ruled an Albanian city.

[Skerdilaid]

=Stefan_Dusan;2476636]I just posted you a source that explains very clearly they did! Vlah was a term Croats used for everyone belonging to the Orthodox church. Specifically if they were pastoralists. Those "Vlahs" in your source came from Smederevo, and had Serbian names, and sang about Kosovo battle and Serbian heroes. Why would Aromanians have Serbian names?

Anyways they're not from the mountains of Herzegovina.

Albanians did have Slavic names too, so what does that tell you?


Shkodra was in the realm of Zeta in the middle ages. Which is why Montenegrins tried to take it (and did for brief time before they were forced to hand it back) during the first Balkan war. They felt it was part of their old kingdom and they wanted it back. Ofc demographics changed profoundly in Shkodra, or you can claim it never did and Montenegrins ruled an Albanian city.

City of Scodra bounced in a lot of hands during middle ages, but in the last moment against Ottomans Albanians defended it.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Albanians did have Slavic names too, so what does that tell you?

lol Skerdi what is your criteria for determining if someone is Serb? If he has Serbian name, speaks Serbian, belongs to the church, and feels to be Serbian what else do you want, genetic test xD Anyways that's what the Morlachs were, Orthodox Serbian pastoralists whom were called "Vlahs" as all Serbians are derogatorily called in Bosnia and Herzegovina.


"Vlachs", referring to pastoralists, was a common name for Serbs in the Ottoman Empire and later.[9] Tihomir Đorđević points to the already known fact that the name 'Vlach' didn't only refer to genuine Vlachs or Serbs but also to cattle breeders in general.[9] A letter of Emperor Ferdinand, sent on November 6, 1538, to Croatian ban Petar Keglević, in which he wrote "Captains and dukes of the Rasians, or the Serbs, or the Vlachs, who usually call themselves the Serbs".[9] Serbs that took refuge in the Habsburg Krajina, were called "Vlachs" by Croats.[9] In the work "About the Vlachs" from 1806, Metropolitan Stevan Stratimirović states that Roman Catholics from Croatia and Slavonia scornfully used the name 'Vlach' for "the Slovenians (Slavs) and Serbs, who are of our, Eastern confession (Orthodoxy)", and that "the Turks in Bosnia and Serbia also call every Bosnian or Serbian Christian a Vlach" (T. Đorđević, 1984:110). That the name 'Vlach' was used to signify the Serbs is testified by Vuk Karadžić as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs#cnote_a

[Skerdilaid]

=Stefan_Dusan;2476661]lol Skerdi what is your criteria for determining if someone is Serb? If he has Serbian name, speaks Serbian, belongs to the church, and feels to be Serbian what else do you want, genetic test xD Anyways that's what the Morlachs were, Orthodox Serbian pastoralists whom were called "Vlahs" as all Serbians are derogatorily called in Bosnia and Herzegovina.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs#cnote_a




You are denying their existence just like a lot of Serb historians, you are not the first. What you see in the source you have quoted is a process of their assimilation, but unlike today, back in those days most of them still spoke their Romance language, and was recorded by many sources. So, today you can say they are Serbs, but they were not during middle ages.

[Stefan_Dusan]

You are denying their existence just like a lot of Serb historians, you are not the first. What you see in the source you have quoted is a process of their assimilation, but unlike today, back in those days most of them still spoke their Romance language, and was recorded by many sources. So, today you can say they are Serbs, but they were not during middle ages.

Or your reading too far into things. In the Balkans today it's still common to call someone a Turk if he's a Muslim. Back then Vlah was a kind of profession (pastoralist) but the Morlachs were Serbian speak and came from Smederevo (and probably came from Kosovo since they sang about it). They were not native to Herzegovina anyway.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The only way to get a new clade is mutation. Simple as that. Without a mutation the haplogroups will stay the same until time immortal. You could colonize Mars and the haplogroups will be the same of the people who brought them there. Your right that not all mutated clades stick in a population, but that's fine. Evantually some will. That's the time game.

Mutation is required but it is NOT enough to form a clade split.

You can calculate out what sort of time and population size is needed for a clade to become dominant in an area, and basically it's simply impossible for what you said to happen with the population sizes that already existed.



Haplogroup I2a1b-L621

This branch is found overwhelmingly in Slavic countries. Its maximum frequencies are observed among the Dinaric Slavs (Slovenes, Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians) as well as in Bulgaria, Romania, Moldavia, western Ukraine and Belarus. It is also common to a lower extent in Albania, Greece, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, and south-western Russia. I2-L621 (L147.2+) is also known as as I2a-Din (for Dinaric).

The high concentration of I2a1b-L621 in north-east Romania, Moldova and central Ukraine reminds of the maximum spread of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (4800-3000 BCE) before it was swallowed by the Indo-European Corded Ware culture. This could mean that the Cucuteni-Tripolye culture was a native European group of hunter-gatherers who adopted farming after coming in contact (with perhaps some intermarriages) with the Middle Eastern farmers who settled in the Balkans (haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J2b and T). After being Indo-Europeanized, I2a-L621 would have become the dominant paternal lineage among southern Slavs, while R1a remained dominant among northern Slavs.

The presence of I2a-L621 in Romania and Bulgaria could be attributed to the migration of the ancient Dacians and Thracians, who emerged as a mixture of of indigenous peoples and Indo-Europeans (in this case, essentially R1a-Z280) sometime between 3300 and 1500 BCE. The Illyrians, who conquered the territory of former Yugoslavia circa 1200-1000 BCE, might have been an offshoot from the Dacians or the Thracians, or a closely related tribe from the Carpathian basin.

The second great expansion of I2a-Din took place with the Slavic migration in the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages. I2a-Din had started to mix with Proto-Indo-Euroepan R1a around Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus and Poland during the Corded Ware period (2900-2400 BCE), then disseminated more uniformly across Proto-Slavic tribes during the Bronze and Iron Ages. After Germanic tribes living in eastern Germany and Poland, like the Goths, the Vandals and the Burgundians, invaded the Roman Empire, the Slavs from further east filled the vacuum. Following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476, the Slavs moved in the Dinaric Alps and the Balkans. By the 9th century the Slavs occupied all modern Slavic-speaking territories, apart from the eastern Balkans under the control of the Turkic-speaking Bulgars.

Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south owes to the cumulative effect of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians) and the medieval Slavic migrations. The relatively high percentage of of I2a-L621 in non-Slavic people like the Hungarians (15% ), Albanians (12%) and Greeks (9%) dates from the Bronze Age and population movement inside the Roman Empire which redistributed I2a beyond the original Daco-Thracian and Illyrian territories. Based on these frequencies, and the distribution of R1a subclades, it can be assessed that the Daco-Thracians and Illyrians carried approximately two to three times more I2a-Din than R1a, while the Early Slavs must have had roughly twice more R1a than I2a-Din. The higher proportion of R1a in many northern Slavic countries today is due to earlier migrations of R1a during Bronze Age (such as L260 among West Slavs and Z92 and Z93 among Russians and Belarussians).


It's obviously been there before there was such a thing as a slav.

[Skerdilaid]

Or your reading too far into things. In the Balkans today it's still common to call someone a Turk if he's a Muslim. Back then Vlah was a kind of profession (pastoralist) but the Morlachs were Serbian speak and came from Smederevo (and probably came from Kosovo since they sang about it). They were not native to Herzegovina anyway.

lol, this is where you are getting things tangled up. No one was called a Vlah, unless he spoke their language. But, I will leave it at this.

[Stefan_Dusan]

lol, this is where you are getting things tangled up. No one was called a Vlah, unless he spoke their language. But, I will leave it at this.

How are you so sure? You know Croats custom on calling people?


The Croatians historically used the term "Vlach" for anyone who professed the Orthodox faith as opposed to Catholicism. Vlachs, referring to pastoralists, was a common name for Serbs in the Ottoman Empire and later.[a]
Italian Alberto Fortis mentioned the Morlachs in his 1774 work "Put po Dalmaciji";[1] he found that they sang beautiful verses of Serb epic poetry related to the Turkish occupation of Serbian Kosovo (Kosovo cycle).[2] They sang the verses along with the traditional single stringed instrument called gusle.[2] The poetry was collected by the Scottish man-of-letters Lord Bute, who was close to King George III.[2] Contemporary I. Lovrić, said that the Morlachs were Slavs who spoke better Slavic than the Ragusians (owing to the growing Italianization of the Dalmatian coast). He claimed the ethnonym "Morlaci" was derived from the word more (sea) and laci meaning "strong".[1] Lovrić made no distinction between the Vlachs/Morlachs and the Dalmatians and Montenegrins that were also mentioned (peoples of Croatia and Slavonia were not mentioned), he was not at all bothered by the fact that the Morlachs were predominantly Orthodox Christian.[1]
Boško Desnica (1886-1945), after analysing Venetian papers, concluded that they always mentioned the script and language of the Morlachs as "Servian".[3]

Whoever they were, they were slavs by the middle ages. Lovric is a Croatian btw.

[Stefan_Dusan]

It's obviously been there before there was such a thing as a slav.

In the Balkans? No, it wasn't there before there were slavs (Serbs/Croats). In eastern Europe sure it existed before slavs that's not the point. We're discussing I2a1b in the Balkans not I2a1b in Belorussia.

[Skerdilaid]

How are you so sure? You know Croats custom on calling people?



Whoever they were, they were slavs by the middle ages. Lovric is a Croatian btw.

It does not matter what your historians claim, but answer me this. Do you really believe that these regions were totally desolate prior to Slav arrival?

[Stefan_Dusan]

It does not matter what your historians claim, but answer me this. Do you really believe that these regions were totally desolate prior to Slav arrival?

Ofc not but what does that have to do with the Morlaci? They're not from Herzegovina anyway, but from Smederevo and possibly Kosovo if we go back far enough. Good example of Vlahs is Ragusans, who protected by Venetians, spoke their Vlah-Italian language into the middle ages and maybe into the kingdom of Yugoslavia (don't hurt me Solin xD) however they were not very warlike. Rather smart, urbane merchants. Morlachs is a stretch honestly on your part to not only tie them as Aromanians but also to the original people of Herzegovina.

[Skerdilaid]

Ofc not but what does that have to do with the Morlaci? They're not from Herzegovina anyway, but from Smederevo and possibly Kosovo if we go back far enough. Good example of Vlahs is Ragusans, who protected by Venetians, spoke their Vlah-Italian language into the middle ages and maybe into the kingdom of Yugoslavia (don't hurt me Solin xD) however they were not very warlike. Rather smart, urbane merchants. Morlachs is a stretch honestly on your part to not only tie them as Aromanians but also to the original people of Herzegovina.

It's not a stretch in my part, but I am merely stating the fact. Read this:http://books.google.ca/books?id=_jhKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA270&lpg=PA270&dq=Mavrovlachi+of+herzegovina&source=bl&ots=-d1-PScoTz&sig=jaTZ7Vlb64mm21u0OlDx47jXlWg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yuIcU7r4J8zioATG7YJg&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Mavrovlachi%20of%20herzegovina&f=false

[Prisoner Of Ice]

In the Balkans? No, it wasn't there before there were slavs (Serbs/Croats). In eastern Europe sure it existed before slavs that's not the point. We're discussing I2a1b in the Balkans not I2a1b in Belorussia.

How do you know it wasn't?

There's still obvious celtic influence in area, which came from probably 2k+ years ago.

[Stefan_Dusan]

How do you know it wasn't?

Because if it was there would be a diversity of clades, including the source. There is none. I2a1b didn't originate in the Balkans, it had to come from some people and based on it's distribution, Serbian/Croat settlements make the most sense.

No Celts today (or almost none) have I2a1b as a paternal haplogroup.

[Kastrioti1443]

I just posted you a source that explains very clearly they did! Vlah was a term Croats used for everyone belonging to the Orthodox church. Specifically if they were pastoralists. Those "Vlahs" in your source came from Smederevo, and had Serbian names, and sang about Kosovo battle and Serbian heroes. Why would Aromanians have Serbian names?

Anyways they're not from the mountains of Herzegovina.




Shkodra was in the realm of Zeta in the middle ages. Which is why Montenegrins tried to take it (and did for brief time before they were forced to hand it back) during the first Balkan war. They felt it was part of their old kingdom and they wanted it back. Ofc demographics changed profoundly in Shkodra, or you can claim it never did and Montenegrins ruled an Albanian city.

Lol '' montenigrins'' never existed as a nation before 1830s... it is like saying '' romans''. Montenegro was created in 1832 and it is a land divided between albanians tribes ( reduced a lot in nr now days because of different reasons) and slavs ( + a lot of assimilated vlachs). '' Montenigrin'' ethnicity doesn't exist.

You talked about Shkodra.... it is a city which has never been ruled by slavophones, never in history. It was ruled by the noble albanian families such as Zaharia and Dukagjini in 12th,13th and 14th centuries, than by Balshajs and than taken by Venice in 1400, but always populated by albanians, de juro under Venice, de facto under Albanians till 1479, when Turks took it.

You mention Zeta and Cernojvic.... now what is Zeta and Cernojvic origin and ethnic compossition is still a mystery.... some Vatican archives found recently ( will be published soon) state that the real surname of Cernojvic was Gjurshaj, and we all know what kind of surname Gjurshaj is.

There is a reason why Cernojiv were part of the Albanian League of Lezha. Not even Vlahic Lords were part of the League, only Albanian Lords.

The noble albanian Gjergj Muzaka for example in his diary ( which will be published in english sooner than 2015) states very clearly that Cernojvic and mother of Gjergj Kastrioti were both Arbers ( albanians of mediaval age), and in that time these ethnic confrontations you see today didn't exist.

However these are all things which will become crystal clear in the future, it is just a matter of time.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Because if it was there would be a diversity of clades, including the source.

Not necessarily. Why would only one type come to balkans in the first place? Like I said it takes separation to make a new clade that has a different locus to it. Otherwise all the clades would be mixed together. It's just a fact, which you don't seem to understand.



There is none. I2a1b didn't originate in the Balkans, it had to come from some people and based on it's distribution, Serbian/Croat settlements make the most sense.


Well based on what? Just looking out your window and seeing what's there.


No Celts today (or almost none) have I2a1b as a paternal haplogroup.

I didn't say they did but if they influence the area after all this time your scenario is pretty ridiculous.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Not necessarily. Why would only one type come to balkans in the first place?

Like I explained, the Serbian/Croatian tribe was brought and settled. A tribe in Serbian and Croatian has one progenitor, i.e they would almost all have the same paternal haplogroup. Almost all.

The rest we went over and you bring up same things over and over I explained. Mutations are *only* way to new clades. I personally don't know what you're trying to argue by bringing Celts into this and what they have to do with I2a1b, or if you even know where you're going with this xD

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Like I explained, the Serbian/Croatian tribe was brought and settled. A tribe in Serbian and Croatian has one progenitor, i.e they would almost all have the same paternal haplogroup. Almost all.

The rest we went over and you bring up same things over and over I explained. Mutations are *only* way to new clades. I personally don't know what you're trying to argue by bringing Celts into this and what they have to do with I2a1b, or if you even know where you're going with this xD

You don't understand how genetic drift works. What you are saying is possible because the numbers don't add up, never mind that no one but you thinks the slav's main clade is I when it's obviously r1a.

Mutations happen all the time but they seldom grow to dominate a group. They need VERY small numbers, and a LOT of time, making this idea of your completely impossible given the spread of the clade.

[Stefan_Dusan]

There is a reason why Cernojiv were part of the Albanian League of Lezha. Not even Vlahic Lords were part of the League, only Albanian Lords.

Back at those times, there was no idea of Albanian ethnicity just as you point out there is no idea of Serbian ethnicity. People were divided by language, lords of the territory they ruled and the subjects they managed. The inclusion of the Balshic family was probably because they were great contributors and funders to Scanderbeg (two of their members were in the founders list of the League of Lezha). After all as soon as Scanderbeg falls, their realm would fall, which was exactly the case. But a person called Stefan Crnojevic cannot be Albanian as it shows his principal language is not Albanian, and he is of hereditary Serbian lineage ("Stefan")

[Stefan_Dusan]

You don't understand how genetic drift works.

You don't understand how genetic drift works. It doesn't create new clades. It just redistributes them.

[Kastrioti1443]

Back at those times, there was no idea of Albanian ethnicity just as you point out there is no idea of Serbian ethnicity. People were divided by language, lords of the territory they ruled and the subjects they managed. The inclusion of the Balshic family was probably because they were great contributors and funders to Scanderbeg (two of their members were in the founders list of the League of Lezha). After all as soon as Scanderbeg falls, their realm would fall, which was exactly the case. But a person called Stefan Crnojevic cannot be Albanian as it shows his principal language is not Albanian, and he is of hereditary Serbian lineage ("Stefan")

No, the Balshaj were included because they were a very important Albanian family, like Dukagjini, Zaharia, Muzaka, Topiaj, Kelmendi. I do not know about Serbs, but Albanians from 1443-1480 fought against Ottomans as a united ethnicity, ( and the ottoman punishment was terrible only to the Albanian ethnicity. Mehmet ordered the extremination of Albanians in 1465 if you didn't know that) that is why all the Lords of the League were Albanian. About Cernojvic, as I said these things will become more clear in the future. Vatican archives are starting to become open to the world. ( Those things I said to you about Cernjvic come from Vatican, not from my mind, will be published soon). I will not talk anymore about this issue since it is off topic.

[Stefan_Dusan]

No, the Balshaj were included because they were a very important Albanian family, like Dukagjini, Zaharia, Muzaka, Topiaj, Kelmendi. I do not know about Serbs, but Albanians from 1443-1480 fought against Ottomans as a united ethnicity, ( and the ottoman punishment was terrible only to the Albanian ethnicity. Mehmet ordered the extremination of Albanians in 1465 if you didn't know that) that is why all the Lords of the League were Albanian. About Cernojvic, as I said these things will become more clear in the future. Vatican archives are starting to become open to the world. ( Those things I said to you about Cernjvic come from Vatican, not from my mind, will be published soon). I will not talk anymore about this issue since it is off topic.

Well Serbians fought almost united against the Turks originally under Lazar. However after the death of Lazar things changed. This is pretty much true for Scanderbeg's life.

I'll just add, in topic of Balsha family (btw both Balsha family and Crnojevic were in the league) is that Balsha 3 put his uncle, Stefan Lazarevic in charge of Zeta after he died. The same Stefan Lazarevic was the son of Lazar above.

But it's off topic.

[Insuperable]

Ofc not but what does that have to do with the Morlaci? They're not from Herzegovina anyway, but from Smederevo and possibly Kosovo if we go back far enough. Good example of Vlahs is Ragusans, who protected by Venetians, spoke their Vlah-Italian language into the middle ages and maybe into the kingdom of Yugoslavia (don't hurt me Solin xD) however they were not very warlike. Rather smart, urbane merchants. Morlachs is a stretch honestly on your part to not only tie them as Aromanians but also to the original people of Herzegovina.

If you say that Morovlasi were by the 13th century Serbs than why would Ragusans by the 13th century be pure Vlachs? They never considered themselves as Vlachs or their descendents.

[Stefan_Dusan]

If you say that Morovlasi were by the 13th century Serbs than why would Ragusans by the 13th century be pure Vlachs? They never considered themselves as Vlachs or their descendents.

I'm saying they were never latin speaking. They always spoke slavic whereas Ragusans spoke latin/vlah. They are only vlah because they are orthodox and sheepherders whereas Ragusans are vlah by language but not by lifestyle (they are catholics and merchants).

[Insuperable]

I'm saying they were never latin speaking. They always spoke slavic whereas Ragusans spoke latin/vlah. They are only vlah because they are orthodox and sheepherders whereas Ragusans are vlah by language but not by lifestyle (they are catholics and merchants).

Ok whatever, but Ragusans by the 13th century were not pure Vlachs, but a mix similar to modern Croats.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Ok whatever, but Ragusans by the 13th century were not pure Vlachs, but a mix similar to modern Croats.

Ok I agree, in Kosovo we used to have old Croat community. They're no longer there. But they claim to come from Dubrovnik and be Ragusans.

[Dick]

Don't tell me you connect today Sorb people of East Germany with Serb tribes at that time...Serbs came first and foremost from today Iran from Serbos or Serboi tribe.

The R1a in Serbs is the same subclade as what Sorbs have, see Tesla's result. Even Rethel has a few marker matches from Serbia.

[Dibran]

Lol '' montenigrins'' never existed as a nation before 1830s... it is like saying '' romans''. Montenegro was created in 1832 and it is a land divided between albanians tribes ( reduced a lot in nr now days because of different reasons) and slavs ( + a lot of assimilated vlachs). '' Montenigrin'' ethnicity doesn't exist.

You talked about Shkodra.... it is a city which has never been ruled by slavophones, never in history. It was ruled by the noble albanian families such as Zaharia and Dukagjini in 12th,13th and 14th centuries, than by Balshajs and than taken by Venice in 1400, but always populated by albanians, de juro under Venice, de facto under Albanians till 1479, when Turks took it.

You mention Zeta and Cernojvic.... now what is Zeta and Cernojvic origin and ethnic compossition is still a mystery.... some Vatican archives found recently ( will be published soon) state that the real surname of Cernojvic was Gjurshaj, and we all know what kind of surname Gjurshaj is.

There is a reason why Cernojiv were part of the Albanian League of Lezha. Not even Vlahic Lords were part of the League, only Albanian Lords.

The noble albanian Gjergj Muzaka for example in his diary ( which will be published in english sooner than 2015) states very clearly that Cernojvic and mother of Gjergj Kastrioti were both Arbers ( albanians of mediaval age), and in that time these ethnic confrontations you see today didn't exist.

However these are all things which will become crystal clear in the future, it is just a matter of time.

According to the book "the Northern tribes of Albania" the Balshaj were originated from a Slavic clan Balsic that along with Albanians rebelled against a Serbian King. By the time of League of Lezhe they were already assimilated into Albanian. I will post the section from my book when I come home from work, as I can't find an excerpt of the particular passage online.

Though, it stands to reason they could have been assimilated Albanians upon the arrival of the Slavs during the great migration, that reassimilated into Albanians during the later Middle Ages.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

The R1a in Serbs is the same subclade as what Sorbs have, see Tesla's result. Even Rethel has a few marker matches from Serbia.

Well didn't know that, so there's a connection after all.

[Laberia]

I just posted you a source that explains very clearly they did! Vlah was a term Croats used for everyone belonging to the Orthodox church. Specifically if they were pastoralists. Those "Vlahs" in your source came from Smederevo, and had Serbian names, and sang about Kosovo battle and Serbian heroes. Why would Aromanians have Serbian names?
Vlachs are just Vlachs, not servs, not Greeks and not Albanians. You and your southern counterparts, the Greeks, both of you claims that Vlachs are servs or Greeks. We don`t say that Vlachs are Albanians. We have lived together with them as neighborous during the history.They were a separate ethnic group. Now they are ethno-cultural group, exactlys because both your countries assimilated them. Now, because the whole ex-Yugoslavia call you servs, Vlasi, i.e. Vlachs, this don`t mean that they were just some servian shephards, this mean that you, in large part are just servianised Vlachs.
And still today, the only country in Balcans that fully respect the rights of Vlachs, is exactly Albania.

Anyways they're not from the mountains of Herzegovina.



Shkodra was in the realm of Zeta in the middle ages. Which is why Montenegrins tried to take it (and did for brief time before they were forced to hand it back) during the first Balkan war. They felt it was part of their old kingdom and they wanted it back. Ofc demographics changed profoundly in Shkodra, or you can claim it never did and Montenegrins ruled an Albanian city.
Montenegrins are just slavised Albanians. There are plenty of evidences and proves about this. Those katunari from North are basically Albanians.
About Shkodra, i want to quote you a source from middle ages. There are two Siege of Shkodra from Ottomans. Shkodra fell in the hand of Turks few months after Kruja. But before the Second Siege of Shkodra, one of the most famous battles in the world history between the cross and the crescent, there was the first Siege of Scutari:

1474
George Merula:
The Siege of Shkodra

The local people call the town Shkodra in their language and the language of their forefathers, whereas the Italians have now given it a new foreign name, Scutari.
Source:
Georgius Merula Alexandrinus, Bellum Scodrense.

[Rethel]

The R1a in Serbs is the same subclade as what Sorbs have, see Tesla's result. Even Rethel has a few marker matches from Serbia.

Two - one in serbian Kosovo.
But it is not so sure, if it is from slavic migration, as
my closest matches are everywhere aroud Europe:
Ural, Wales, Sardinia, Italy, Serbia, Poland.

[wvwvw]

Vlachs are just Vlachs, not servs, not Greeks and not Albanians. You and your southern counterparts, the Greeks, both of you claims that Vlachs are servs or Greeks. We don`t say that Vlachs are Albanians. We have lived together with them as neighborous during the history.They were a separate ethnic group. Now they are ethno-cultural group, exactlys because both your countries assimilated them. Now, because the whole ex-Yugoslavia call you servs, Vlasi, i.e. Vlachs, this don`t mean that they were just some servian shephards, this mean that you, in large part are just servianised Vlachs.
And still today, the only country in Balcans that fully respect the rights of Vlachs, is exactly Albania.

Montenegrins are just slavised Albanians. There are plenty of evidences and proves about this. Those katunari from North are basically Albanians.
About Shkodra, i want to quote you a source from middle ages. There are two Siege of Shkodra from Ottomans. Shkodra fell in the hand of Turks few months after Kruja. But before the Second Siege of Shkodra, one of the most famous battles in the world history between the cross and the crescent, there was the first Siege of Scutari:

1474
George Merula:
The Siege of Shkodra

Source:
Georgius Merula Alexandrinus, Bellum Scodrense.

Montenegrins look like Serbs only slightly darker. Clearly Slavic, in features and physique.

[Dibran]

Two - one in serbian Kosovo.
But it is not so sure, if it is from slavic migration, as
my closest matches are everywhere aroud Europe:
Ural, Wales, Sardinia, Italy, Serbia, Poland.

It's Not Serbian Kosovo. It's Dardani and it's people are Albanians. You can say a Serb from Kosova. That would be more appropriate.

[Rethel]

It's Not Serbian Kosovo. It's Dardani and it's people are Albanians. You can say a Serb from Kosova. That would be more appropriate.

A serbian - the part where lived Serbs.

[Dibran]

A serbian - the part where lived Serbs.

That's much clearer.

[Lavrentis]

Byzantine rulers invited Croat/Serbian tribal chiefs to settle in principalities along dalmatia and herzegovina (all the way to Montenegro and Rashka) in exchange for military services.


I do as did the Byzantines who invited Croat/Serbs down into the Balkans.

Is this a new Serbian pseudo-historical tale? The Croats/Serbs were not invited by the Byzantines, The invading Slavs were among the biggest enemies of the Byzantines.

[Bosniensis]

Vlachs are just Vlachs, not servs, not Greeks and not Albanians. You and your southern counterparts, the Greeks, both of you claims that Vlachs are servs or Greeks. We don`t say that Vlachs are Albanians. We have lived together with them as neighborous during the history.They were a separate ethnic group. Now they are ethno-cultural group, exactlys because both your countries assimilated them. Now, because the whole ex-Yugoslavia call you servs, Vlasi, i.e. Vlachs, this don`t mean that they were just some servian shephards, this mean that you, in large part are just servianised Vlachs.
And still today, the only country in Balcans that fully respect the rights of Vlachs, is exactly Albania.

Montenegrins are just slavised Albanians. There are plenty of evidences and proves about this. Those katunari from North are basically Albanians.
About Shkodra, i want to quote you a source from middle ages. There are two Siege of Shkodra from Ottomans. Shkodra fell in the hand of Turks few months after Kruja. But before the Second Siege of Shkodra, one of the most famous battles in the world history between the cross and the crescent, there was the first Siege of Scutari:

1474
George Merula:
The Siege of Shkodra

Source:
Georgius Merula Alexandrinus, Bellum Scodrense.

Vlachs are the people of Italy whom Diocletian moved to modern day Montenegro and Serbia. That's what is written by Constantine Porfirogenet.

Vlach is a SLAVIC word, and it never existed before arrival of Slavs.

Vlachi = Romani, Slavs called Romans Vlachs, even today people from Poland call Citizens of Rome = Vlachs.

When R1a (Slavs) came to Balkans they mixed with Vlachs. Vlachs eventually adopted Slavic language, while Romanians only partially.. so they speak corrupted Latin.

That is the only truth.

Vlachs never existed ... that's a slavic term from Romans.

[Kelmendasi]

Vlachs are the people of Italy whom Diocletian moved to modern day Montenegro and Serbia. That's what is written by Constantine Porfirogenet.

Vlach is a SLAVIC word, and it never existed before arrival of Slavs.

Vlachi = Romani, Slavs called Romans Vlachs, even today people from Poland call Citizens of Rome = Vlachs.

When R1a (Slavs) came to Balkans they mixed with Vlachs. Vlachs eventually adopted Slavic language, while Romanians only partially.. so they speak corrupted Latin.

That is the only truth.

Vlachs never existed ... that's a slavic term from Romans.
Vlach is a Germanic word not Slavic. Plus Slavs were I2a1b as well as R1a when they invaded the Balkans. And a Vlach is just a Latin speaker in the Balkans, they can be anything from a Goth who took up latin or an actual Roman

[Bosniensis]

Vlach is a Germanic word not Slavic. Plus Slavs were I2a1b as well as R1a when they invaded the Balkans. And a Vlach is just a Latin speaker in the Balkans, they can be anything from a Goth who took up latin or an actual Roman

How come that Germans or Slavs aren't I2a1b but R1a and R1b?

How come that Dinaric Race is exlusively predominantly based on Western Balkans and not in other Slavic/Germanic lands?

How come that our trait (extreme Height) is specific only to Western Balkans and not to other Slavic and Germanic peoples who are small in comparison to us?

MANY MANY OTHER THINGS.. we don't share with Slavs and Germans.. How is that possible?

That means.. you are WRONG.

[Kelmendasi]

How come that Germans or Slavs aren't I2a1b but R1a and R1b?

How come that Dinaric Race is exlusively predominantly based on Western Balkans and not in other Slavic/Germanic lands?

How come that our trait (extreme Height) is specific only to Western Balkans and not to other Slavic and Germanic peoples who are small in comparison to us?

MANY MANY OTHER THINGS.. we don't share with Slavs and Germans.. How is that possible?

That means.. you are WRONG.
You tripping homie, I2a1b originated in northern Europe probably Scandinavia due to it being found in the Motala SHG samples although I2a-Din has the highest diversity in Ukraine suggesting it's origin is there whilst it's ancestor came from northern Europe. Scandinavians are close to west Balkanites when it comes to height and so are the dutch. And phenotype isn't an indication of what meta-ethnicity you belonged to

[Lavrentis]

You and your southern counterparts, the Greeks, both of you claims that Vlachs are servs or Greeks. We don`t say that Vlachs are Albanians. We have lived together with them as neighborous during the history.They were a separate ethnic group. Now they are ethno-cultural group, exactlys because both your countries assimilated them.

It is not so simple. Vlachs in western Greece (Thessaly) are Latinized Greeks. Vlachs in northern Greece, are migrators who arrived in the Middle Ages from Romania. And the Vlachs in Thessaly have mixed with Albanians too. A lot of them moved to Athens and generally the big cities so they stop speaking the language. You can easily found Vlachs in Greece who speak perfect Vlachic, so don't spread misinformation.

[Laberia]

Vlachs are the people of Italy whom Diocletian moved to modern day Montenegro and Serbia. That's what is written by Constantine Porfirogenet.
No, Vlachs are not people from Italy. Their origine is obscure. There are different theories and there are various thread in this forum about Vlachs.



Vlachi = Romani,
After the edict of Caracalla, all the free men of the Roman Empire were Romans.


Vlach is a SLAVIC word, and it never existed before arrival of Slavs.
Slavs called Romans Vlachs, even today people from Poland call Citizens of Rome = Vlachs.
No:

Etymology
Further information: Walhaz

The word Vlach is of Germanic origin, an early loanword into Proto-Slavic from Germanic *Walhaz ("foreigner" or "stranger") and used by ancient Germanic peoples for their Romance-speaking and (Romanized) Celtic neighbours. *Walhaz was evidently borrowed from the name of a Celtic tribe, known to the Romans as Volcae in the writings of Julius Caesar and to the Greeks as Ouólkai in texts by Strabo and Ptolemy.[6] Vlach is thus of the same origin as European ethnic names including the Welsh and Walloons.[7]

When R1a (Slavs) came to Balkans they mixed with Vlachs.
Enough with this BS.

Vlachs eventually adopted Slavic language, while Romanians only partially.. so they speak corrupted Latin.
Vlachs have their language, they didn`t adopted any Slavic language.


That is the only truth.
lol. You and the word truth are two different things.


Vlachs never existed ... that's a slavic term from Romans.
Of course they existed. Until two centuries ago Vlachs were biggest ethnic group in Balcans. When the process of the creation of nation-states started in Balkans, they were in large assimilated.

[Laberia]

It is not so simple. Vlachs in western Greece (Thessaly) are Latinized Greeks. Vlachs in northern Greece, are migrators who arrived in the Middle Ages from Romania. And the Vlachs in Thessaly have mixed with Albanians too. A lot of them moved to Athens and generally the big cities so they stop speaking the language. You can easily found Vlachs in Greece who speak perfect Vlachic, so don't spread misinformation.

Vlachs are not Greek, not Slavs, not Albanians. What disinformation are you talking?

[Lavrentis]

What disinformation are you talking?

That Greeks have "assimilated Vlachs". They assimilated by themselves by moving to bigger cities.

[Laberia]

That Greeks have "assimilated Slavs". They assimilated by themselves by moving to bigger cities.
I was not talking about greek citizens of slavic ancestry, i was talking about Vlachs. Don`t spread lies.

[Lavrentis]

I was not talking about greek citizens of slavic ancestry, i was talking about Vlachs. Don`t spread lies.

Yo Laberia I swear, I had a mindfuck there. I meant to say Vlachs, not Slavs. My mistake

[Jovan Vladimir]

I2a1b across the Balkans is Serbian origin.