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Lulletje Rozewater
12-22-2009, 05:49 AM
“All the love cast for centuries on the roads of time—is it possible that it is forever lost? To exist would be worse than absurd if there were not eternal life.” —Jacques Maritain, Notebooks, June 8, 1923

“The devil has the widest perspectives for God, and that I why he keeps so far away from him—the devil being the oldest friend of knowledge.” —Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, #129

“Morality demands that before evil is done by a man we should do everything to prevent it; and afterwards everything to undo it without inducing a greater evil; but if that is impossible, it demands that we recognize that which is: the existence of the evil that this man has committed, and which is there, which has been committed, which has taken its place in the course of the events of this world, together with the good on which it preys.” —Jacques Maritain, Integral Humanism, 1934

http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=1353&theme=home&loc=b

I.
Nietzsche remarks, recalling Genesis, that the devil is the “oldest friend” of precisely “knowledge.” The tree in the Garden was named the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.” The devil tempted Adam and Eve to partake of its fruit, contrary to the prohibition of God, the only one given to them. Had they not eaten of the tree, they would not, presumably, have had this kind of knowledge that comes to us when we actually do something evil, a concrete, not abstract, knowledge. The command was for their good. It gave them responsibility over their own fate, without which they would not have been free. We presume also that this famous aphorism of Nietzsche does not, in principle, suggest that the primary meaning or cause of evil is knowledge itself, but what we do with it. They understood what the prohibition required of them.
We likewise hesitate to identify the devil with knowledge and God with something else that is not knowledge. Deus Logos Est. The knowledge that an angel can know and God’s own knowledge are not in principle in opposition to each other. How could they be? The “truth” in the being of an angel is ultimately located in the creative knowledge of the Godhead about what is not God Himself, or better about what is known in Himself that can be imitated and chosen to exist outside of Him. The angel does not cause himself either to exist or to exist as an angel. The angel knows his relative rank in being.
Early in An Introduction to Philosophy, the French philosopher Jacques Maritain writes of the Zoroastrian or Manichean notions of evil. It is located in a separate god of evil. In the light of Nietzsche’s remark about the “oldest friend of knowledge,” Maritain’s comments are worth noting:

By his failure to perceive that God is the sole supreme principle and the source of everything which exists, so far as it partakes of being, and that evil is mere privation of being without positive existence, and therefore that no creature is evil by nature, Zoroaster ended in dualism and taught the existence of two principles uncreated and eternal, the principle of Good (Ormuzd) and the principle of Evil (Ahriman), who share the dominion over the universe and whose unrelenting struggle constitutes its history. So far as Ahriman is to be identified with the rebel angel of primitive tradition, Zoroastrianism tended to make the devil a god striving against God. Often we picture the devil as wanting to replace God, to himself become the one God.
Strictly speaking, the devil cannot think this way. He knows clearer than any other creature that he is not God. But he can, as Maritain put is, “strive against God.” His fallenness does not reduce him to nothing. His being remains what it is. This striving, to the extent that it succeeds, is his evil. He uses his being to corrupt other free beings. He seeks to interfere with God’s good and plan as it exists in creation and in creation’s purpose as it passes through the descendants of Adam and Eve. And the striving against God is not possible without the use of what is good. Good and evil are not two gods. The drama takes place within the souls of finite human beings in their own personhood among beings who are good. Evil remains primarily a lack of what is good as caused by a free being.
These views of knowledge and the devil’s friendliness to it are close to the Socratic affirmation that evil is really but ignorance. All we have to do to rid ourselves of evil is to know the truth. If we know it, we will do it. Learning itself ironically can thus become a kind of god, a cure of evil in the world. This approach is certainly tempting and often tried. It is “intellectual” without being “moral.” It bypasses personal responsibility. If we could locate evil in lack of knowledge alone, we could solve the human problem by progress in knowledge and the sciences, by simply building more schools and hiring more tenured faculty. This solution indeed is what Strauss called “the modern project,” the effort to solve all human problems by rearrangements of differing bodies of knowledge that would find the golden key to perfection . . .
This non-moral solution has zealously been advocated since the modern era began. No indication exists, however, that evil has declined in the light of increasing knowledge. We would, in this view, need no “repentance,” self-discipline, or grace before evil. We only need accurate knowledge. Knowledge alone would cure evil’s consequences. Instead of saying, “I’m sorry for what I did,” we would say, “I know now what I did.” Morality would become similar to correcting an error in a mathematics examination. It would only involve a correct understanding of the formulae, not our acknowledgment of our own contribution to what went wrong.
The stating of such propositions about evil is enough to give us pause. The history of politics shows that those who do the worst of evils are not the dumb, greedy, and stupid. The evils due to simple ignorance or dullardness are nowhere near as damaging as those stemming from what I call the philosophical politicians of this world. The Lenins, Maos, and Hitlers were not ignorant men who happened to acquire power. They were invariably men with a vision of how to make the world better and what prevented their cause to triumph.
This ameliorative or visionary purpose is why they took the trouble of acquiring power in the first place. Their most terrible crimes had a rationale about them, a logic, a knowledge component. Their immediate followers were enthusiastic and excited to participate in world-transforming forces, as they thought. Followers were not innocent of the same temptation of leaders. When their theories resulted in violations of human dignity or the Commandments, they preferred their theories.
We do know, however, that a basic knowledge component is found within anything evil, which is never just a “thing” but the lack of what should be there. Evil, though itself a lack, a nothing, must exist in a something which is good. Nietzsche’s devil is not such a bad character with whom to begin the questions of “How evil is evil?” “How good is good?” The devil makes it clear that the worst evil did not have its origin solely in the conflict of spirit and body as it uniquely exists in human beings. This diversity of parts does cause us problems if we do not relate the parts of our being properly to our end. But really great evils, as Aristotle had already intimated, are found in philosophic minds. The bringing together, or the failure to do so, of knowledge and good in freedom is the essence of the human drama.
But the remarkable thing about evil is not that it occurs only with the great tyrants and sinners. We are sobered by the Christian instinct that evil is present and possible wherever there are men and women, either to choose or to reject it in whatever situation of life they find themselves. Dostoyevsky, in Crime and Punishment, asked whether it was all right with impunity to eliminate an evil old lady who had no redeeming characteristics. He did not think so. Huck Finn is always wrestling with his conscience over what is right and wrong. Hannah Arendt caused something of a scandal in her treatment of the Nazi prison commander who was pretty banal, who was just following orders but who caused enormous evils. She was following a thesis of Augustine. She called it “the banality of evil.” She meant that it was found everywhere, not just in the great and powerful where we can see it more easily.
All of our literature depicts something of the extent and nature of evil, not just of evil alone but of the responses to it. The drama is no less poignant and burdensome among the ordinary people and among the poor than it is among the great and powerful. The reason for this is that all are called to salvation on the basis of their lives no matter in what sort of polity or economy they lived in. If there is anything that is strange about evil, it is the response to it. The whole dramatic interest of Christianity itself is the life of Christ. He came into the world, it is said, not to abolish evil directly but to enable us to have our sins forgiven, almost as to say that by removing evil as such, something greater would also be removed, namely our freedom. The removal of evil could not be a one-way operation on the part of the Godhead.
This very fact suggests, at first sight, that sins are more important than suffering. Adam and Eve did not suffer in the Garden. It also suggests the Socratic principle that it is “better to suffer evil than to do it.” At this point, Christ and Socrates are in full agreement. Both Socrates and Christ suffered evil unjustly imposed on them. They endured suffering when they had to rather than do something that seemed easy and simple, but wrong. They did not seek some “higher good” by doing evil to attain the good.
Something very democratic hovers about evil. It neglects no actual life. Each person decides in his thoughts and deeds where he stands before it. We see its consequences, if we will, in most divorces, however high-minded they are pictured to be. We see it in the effects on children, the spouses. We see it in the tremendous extent of the illegal drug business with its profits and ruined lives, the murders it takes to get contraband into various countries. We see it in the enormous cost to society when individuals refuse to reject what they usually understand perfectly clearly to be bad for everyone. We see that modern medicine and politics conceive themselves as agents to remove “suffering” as the sole human problem. They are not, however, agents to forgive the sins that cause the suffering.
II.
In his Gulag Archipelago, Solzhenitsyn tells of a Soviet official by the name of Yagoda. It seems that near the bathhouse on his estate, he used to set up Icons stolen from Russian Churches as objects of target practice with his pistols. Solzhenitsyn wonders if this shooting is an act of an “evildoer.” How are we to understand it? He wonders whether such people, evildoers, really exist.
We would prefer to say that such people cannot exist, that there aren’t any. It is permissible to portray evildoers in a story for children, so as to keep their picture simple. But when the great world literature of the past—Shakespeare, Schiller, Dickens—inflates and inflates images of evildoers of the blackest shades, it seems somewhat farcical and clumsy to our contemporary perception. The trouble lies in the way these classic evildoers are pictured. They recognize themselves as evildoers, and they know their souls are black. And they reason: “I cannot live unless I do evil. So I’ll set my father against my brother! I’ll drink the victim’s sufferings until I’m drunk with them!” Iago very precisely identifies his purposes and his motives as being black and born of hate.
We moderns think that such evildoings are really exaggerations. The great writers stretch the point. We read about them. At bottom, however, they talk of something we know in our own souls but we do not want to admit it. The evildoing does not exist outside of us.
Our “contemporary perceptions” will not see the truth in classic writers’ descriptions of evil. Partly they want to prevent us from vividly seeing the evils that we ourselves have put into the world, especially those against life and love, the kind that most often, we think, that lets us do what we want. This reason is, I suspect, why abortion, say, is never seen in its reality on television. In a world where everything is open, it is hidden. Classic evildoers, however, know and admit that they do evil. They hate. They choose to do their deeds. It becomes their life. Such life is “born of hate.” “Hatred of whom?” we wonder. Themselves? Every sin is also an offense against God. This is the root of this hatred, as it is the root of the redemption.
The only thing to hate would seem to be something that is the opposite of their own hatred, something that everyone calls good but they call evil. Further, we cannot just hate an abstraction. Hatred must be personal. God is normally “hated” under the rubric of being the cause of the evil we call good. The essential point of the account of the Fall of Man in Genesis, in fact, was nothing less than man wanting the divine power of being himself the one who defines what is good and what is evil.
The point was that this desire already implicitly was a turning away from the good that was prepared for him had he obeyed and understood that good though from another was for him. Unlike the angel who knows he is not God, man, at least in his own acts, can put into existence acts that are evil—that is, that lack the good that should be in them. Once these acts are chosen and put into existence, they remain in existence in their effect. They may or may not eventually be repented, but they remain, as “lacks,” among the ongoing complexities of actual existence. Human society is a web of actions interrelated as good and evil.
The strangest thing about actual human nature is that its own good was intended to be something more than its own natural good. As Aquinas said, “Homo non naturale sed supernaturale est.” This is an existential statement. It is not a denial that man is man. It is a denial that he is only what man would be were he not caught up, from his beginning both as a species and as an individual within that species, in something greater than he can imagine. “Nothing is more human than for man to desire naturally things impossible to his nature,” Maritain wrote in his Approaches to God.

It is, indeed, the property of a nature which is not closed up in matter like the nature of physical things, but which is intellectual or infinitized by the spirit. It is the property of a metaphysical nature. Such desires reach for the infinite, because the intellect thirsts for being and being is infinite. They are natural, but one may also call them trans-natural. It is thus that we desire to see God; it is thus that we desire to be free without being able to sin; it is thus that we desire beatitude. What is Maritain saying here? It is “more human” to desire things “naturally beyond” our nature? Is this desire not the very hubris, the pride that we were at pains to blame the devil, that “friend of knowledge,” for?
Maritain’s happy phrase “infinitized by the spirit” means that his finite nature is called to be more than nature assigns to it, noble as that is. His being “infinitized” is not of his own doing. It is the doing of what is not himself, by the Spirit, but it is not contrary to his given nature. The very nature of his intellect and love leave him open to something higher. So, though he is that, man is more than the “microcosmos” to which status the Greeks assigned him. He is literally invited, in his very first creation, to participate in the inner life of the Godhead, something that is not natural to him, yet it is something his nature can be called to by God, but only on condition of its being freely accepted. We are, as Maritain put it, “natural,” but also “trans-natural.” “Intellect thirsts for being and being is infinite.” But the being we encounter, finite being, is not itself “infinite” except in logic. In being it is only infinite if that is its source.
The questions I am asking are: “How good is good?” “How evil is evil?” These are not static questions. Being is not just another thing. As Solzhenitsyn put it, the classic evildoer says, “I cannot live unless I do evil.” “So I’ll set my father against my brother (The Brothers Karamazov). I’ll drink the victim’s sufferings until I’m drunk with them!” Notice that the evildoer, the devil, cannot “drink” the victim’s sins. But he can enjoy the victim’s “sufferings.” Sufferings are the consequences. What becomes visible because of the lack that is in the action that contains the evil. “How good is good?” What is striking about Christ is His relation, in this matter, to the Socratic principle that “It is better to suffer evil than to do it.” We, including Christ, would just as soon not have to suffer anything, no doubt. Since we do suffer, the question becomes how do we suffer?
The point is that the goodness of the good is shown both by the enjoyment and delight of the good that we know and by the suffering of evil rather than the doing of it. “Greater love than this no man hath than he who lays down his life for his friend.” Thus, not only does good present us with our own suffering in its name, but it leads us to friendship. This relationship can ask of us suffering for another. In the case of Christ, the friendship with God is something whose possibility Aristotle worried about. Christ laid down His life as our friends, as He told us. He laid it down to redeem our sins. His suffering was a result which He accepted.
III.
“How good is good?” In the Gospel According to Peanuts, a Schulz strip is reproduced that begins with Lucy and Charlie at the Stonewall. Both look straight ahead, but Charlie has his head on his elbow and hand. He says to Lucy: “All it would take to make me happy is to have someone say he likes me.” As they walk away, Lucy asks him, “Are you sure?” Charlie stops and tells here, “Of course I’m sure.” She replies, “You mean you’d be happy if someone merely said he or she likes you?”
In the next scene, Charlie is at the water fountain in the park. Lucy, looking on, continues, “Do you mean to tell me that someone has it within his or her power to make you happy merely by doing such a simple thing?” They walk on in the park, both with eyes straight ahead. “Yes! That’s exactly what I mean,” Charlie affirms.
Obviously thinking of herself, Lucy admits, “Well, I don’t think that’s asking too much. . . . I really don’t.” Lucy then looks directly at Charlie. “But you’re sure now? All you want is to have someone say, ‘I like you Charlie Brown . . .’ And then you’ll be happy?” Charlie, echoing her words, throws up his arms in elation, “And then I’ll be happy!” In the final scene, to a totally deflated Charlie Brown, Lucy, walking away, says firmly, “I can’t do it!”
This amusing scene contains a good bit of philosophy when sorted out. In a sense it presupposes the whole content of Christian revelation also. No doubt, there is something pleasantly naïve about Charlie and preternaturally hardheaded about Lucy, who is often said to represent the Protestant notion of the Fall and salvation by faith alone. Happiness, of course, is the result of receiving that good for which we are created. Charlie is always a bit forlorn, looking for someone, anyone, to love him. The very idea that he is lovable gives Lucy much pause. Every football season he puts his trust in her and every season she betrays his confidence by removing the ball just before he kicks it off.
Lucy for her part, while credulous of Charlie’s innocence about just one friend, is forced to admit that if this is what he wants, it is just a little thing. What can harm anything if she tells him she wants to be his friend? This whole conversation presupposes the “We are to love one another as I have loved you” of Scripture. It also portends the judgment scenes of Matthew, where we do not do such a simple thing as give a glass of water to a little one. Lucy is quite sure Charlie is a little one. Lucy is the woman of the world. She cannot stand naïveté. Charlie is just babbling pious phrases. “Are you sure all you want is for someone to say, ‘I like you Charlie Brown’?” He is sure but she just cannot do it. Lucy herself, of course, finds herself in the same situation when Schroeder, the pianist of whom she is most fond, won’t give her the time of day.
Ralph McInerny recently wrote on the Catholic Thing website of the mind of the modern philosophic atheist who wants easily to write off these questions of good and evil by a simple syllogism. It goes: “Evil exists. It can only exist if God permits it, because he is omnipotent. But if he is omnipotent and permits evil he cannot be good. The suggestion is that, if two of the divine attributes, omnipotence and goodness, cannot coexist, God as believers think of Him is impossible.” But these tired old arguments deflect attention to our input into the evil of the world. They also miss the fact that good things are given to us as well as the sufferings that we experience. Our understanding of good and evil “would make utterly no sense if earthly life were all we could expect.”
A correspondent by the name of “Willie” wrote to McInerny that both moral and physical disasters have to be reconciled with God’s love. We are to pray to be “delivered from evil. Why? I guess the bottom line of our question is ‘Why do we die?’ We are told we are here only temporarily. I ask, ‘What did man do to deserve this?’” It is this question that Benedict deals with in Spe Salvi. We did not do anything to deserve our existence. Death is both a punishment and a blessing. If prevents us from living endlessly this worldly life that modern science and ideology proposes to us as an alternative to what God has promised us. “Even the goods we work for rely on their achievement on unexpected twists and turns. If we in a whimper recognize the role of god in our lives when things go wrong, the psalmist is there to tell us that all of the works of the Lord bless the Lord. Creation is a chorus of gratitude and praise that drowns out complaints.”
IV.
How good is good? How evil is evil? “What formally constitutes His (God’s) Nature, so far as we can conceive it, is the act of intellection,” Maritain wrote in A Preface to Metaphysics.

But the privilege of God which most astounds our reason, His Glory, is the fact that in Him the ultimate and principal overflow—that of whose very nature it is to be an overflow—namely His Love, is identical with His essence and His existence. For God’s fundamental love is itself His elicit love and His esse. Therefore, from this point of view, when we regard God in the aspect of His glory, subsistent Love is his true and most secret Name, as subsistent intellect is His true Name when He is regarded in his aspect of His essence taken as such. Ergo, sum qui sum—Deus caritas est. The “glory” of God astounds our reason. His love is identified with His essence and existence. It constitutes an “overflow,” as Maritain put it. The very superabundance of God is already present in His being. Deus est. Deus Logos est. Deus caritas est. What did we do to deserve our temporariness? Why do we die? Is that the worst evil? It is if Christ did not die and did not die for our sins. How good is good? It is good enough to restore what is lost by those who listen to “the greatest friend of knowledge.” But it is not great enough to make a free being not to be a free being. Nor would we want it to be. It is great enough to redeem a free being who commits evil. It is not great enough to save him if he chooses not to be saved, for that would mean that he would cease to be what he is.
How good is good? It is good enough to create and invite other free creatures to live within its own inner life. How evil is evil? It is evil enough to reject this invitation. In the overflowing abundance of God’s inner love, His only choice was to create a world in which He would give being and respond to the free responses of the free beings He created. Outside these parameters, there could be no love or no overflow of His glory because His being cannot contradict itself or the beings that are rooted in his knowledge that results in what is.
“It demands that we recognize that which is: the existence of the evil that this man has committed, and which is there, which has been committed, which has taken its place in the course of the events of this world, together with the good on which it preys.”
“The devil is the oldest friend of knowledge.”
“To exist would be worse than absurd if there were no eternal life.”
To learn more, visit the ISI short course on Western Civilization (http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/index.aspx?theme=weciv&loc=p).

Liffrea
12-23-2009, 01:15 PM
“Good” and “Evil” are purely human concepts and have no relation to Being, as Jung would have said.

Bari
12-23-2009, 01:31 PM
“Good” and “Evil” are purely human concepts and have no relation to Being, as Jung would have said.

- I agree. Which is why i think its weird people think God shares the same perception of good/evil and justice as humans does.
Then referring to incidents as the flooding of Earth, and how he punished people according to the bible(Canaan was cursed to become a slave ("servant of a servant") by Noah. This was as punishment for Canaan's father Ham "seeing his father's (Noah's) nakedness." (Genesis 9.20-9.25) According to some traditional opinions, this Biblical phrase is a euphemism meaning either rape or castration. Many modern Bible critics, however, dispute this.
Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt (assumedly by God) for looking back when fleeing Sodom. (Genesis 19:26) Lot's family had been specifically warned not to look at the destruction of the wicked people of Sodom.
Onan was killed by God for refusing to carry on his brother Er's family line in the context of his levirate marriage to Er's widow, and instead "spilling his seed" on the ground. (Genesis 38:5).

From a human perspective his actions then, strict rules and letting peoples starve and wars go on is evil or unjustified, when one must not forget he is apperantly not human in body, spirit and mind.

Good and Evil is defined individually as well by human beings and eras of history.

Lulletje Rozewater
12-23-2009, 02:05 PM
I have a different idea.
Good can not exist without evil.
The Tree of knowledge is rooted in the earth. The earth(soil) feeds the Tree.
The Tree can not make a distinction between good roots and bad roots.
The fruit on the Tree is full of juice.
Eve can not make a distinction between good juices and bad juice,while eating the Fruit.
After consuming the fruit,she suddenly can separate good from bad.
It is like a poison in her body and mind.
Since her first bite all her future generations have tried to heal her 'sickness'
etc etc

Nature however has a simple logic: Predator and Prey
The one can not exist without the other.
It is impossible to have only goodness
I believe that Good and Evil are in total balance. the one can not be more than the other.

The problems with us humans are 'indoctrination' that has become a habit.

Liffrea
12-23-2009, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by Sacred_Lunatic
Good can not exist without evil.

All that exists is just and unjust and equally justified in both.
Nietzsche.

Laudanum
12-23-2009, 07:03 PM
“Good” and “Evil” are purely human concepts and have no relation to Being, as Jung would have said.

Exactly!

SuuT
12-23-2009, 07:16 PM
There are no moral phenomena at all; only moral interpretation of phenomena. (Nietzsche).

Perhaps, it is the interpretation, and by extention the interpreter, that are far more interesting philosophically than the existence or lack thereof of Evil qua Evil, or Good qua Good.

SuuT
12-23-2009, 07:18 PM
“Good” and “Evil” are purely human concepts and have no relation to Being, as Jung would have said.

And yet, Man is the moral animal. Can Man Be - without these "Goods" and these "Evils"...?

Liffrea
12-23-2009, 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by SuuT
And yet, Man is the moral animal. Can Man Be - without these "Goods" and these "Evils"...?

It’s an interesting thought, in fact you might like the article I wrote for Psychonaut’s publication, my premise being that consciousness is, in fact, a curse and that humanity has spent much of it’s existence attempting to submerge the ego within the natural order. Germanic mythology was my template for the study, Loki gave us this “gift” and we’ve been practically schizophrenic ever since as a result.

Humanity is the aberration of existence, we simply do not fit, more frightening is the fact that we know this, from a human perspective Loki is the epitome of evil, he gets off on torturing small animals, namely us. (I hasten to add that I mean Loki the Germanic god, not our esteemed forum co-owner, who, as far as I am aware, doesn’t derive pleasure from the torment of small animals…at least it wasn’t on his last psychological profile….)

SuuT
12-23-2009, 09:56 PM
It’s an interesting thought, in fact you might like the article I wrote for Psychonaut’s publication, my premise being that consciousness is, in fact, a curse and that humanity has spent much of it’s existence attempting to submerge the ego within the natural order. Germanic mythology was my template for the study, Loki gave us this “gift” and we’ve been practically schizophrenic ever since as a result.

Hmmm...Well for one, I cannot wait to read your contribution. From the abstract you have given me, however, I would take issue with the positio negatio from whence you seem to have proceeded with per se consciousness as a bequest. The resultant pathology of modernity (despite some valuable things we ought not 'give back' as it were) has no necessay connection to the Nordic algorithim of understanding the world - of Vor Siðr . If I may, it appears as if you are looking at the square-peg-round-hole dillemma that is an inevitable phase of passing-through modernity to reach atavistic practise that stands as defensible in this world - in the now. In short...no - in a question: What did the gods think of madness...? What was made - what was given - that was unnecessary...?


Humanity is the aberration of existence, we simply do not fit,

Oh my...:embarrassed I apologise - I have no stomach for such statements.


more frightening is the fact that we know this,

We do? :confused2:


from a human perspective Loki is the epitome of evil, he gets off on torturing small animals, namely us.

You do understand the symbology of Loke, no?

If there is a single thing that circumnavigates and hence encapsulates the whole of Nordic thought, it is that Deception is beneath those of the hearth; however, the use of other's self-deception is the fairest of game.


(I hasten to add that I mean Loki the Germanic god, not our esteemed forum co-owner, who, as far as I am aware, doesn’t derive pleasure from the torment of small animals…at least it wasn’t on his last psychological profile….)

Lately he's been too drunk to hold his scalpel.:D

Lulletje Rozewater
12-24-2009, 06:54 AM
aberration of existence[/B], we simply do not fit, more frightening is the fact that we know this, from a human perspective Loki is the epitome of evil, he gets off on torturing small animals, namely us. (I hasten to add that I mean Loki the Germanic god, not our esteemed forum co-owner, who, as far as I am aware, doesn’t derive pleasure from the torment of small animals…at least it wasn’t on his last psychological profile….)

Thank god I am not the only one having this idea.
I believe we are a mutation of some species in the past
Lets look at instinct vs learned action.

Virus:neither instinct nor learned,it may not even called life.
Bacteria/amoeba:Purely instinct
Trilobites:97 percent instinct
Sea creatures:80 percent instinct
Dinosaurs: 75 percent instinct
Mammels/Apes: 60 percent instinct
Homo Sapiens Sapiens:25 percent instinct and 75 percent learned actions.
(The percentages are not factual just an example for comparison.)

The gap between apes and sapiens is to great to be constructive for the creation of a future earth.We seem to have bypassed a step into the evolution of Life,which is so important for the understanding of Life.
I would compare it with a dog.
A dog goes about his environment instinctively with a certain amount of learning.
Put an Ape brain into a dog and either the dog dies within weeks or lives like a zombie,not knowing what to do with its paws and snout and it destroys all in its wake form frustration. our brain is to big for our body.

We are that dog.

My question is.
Will our mutated self be of any use to the tree of life or are we a step to an other being and our outer shell be aligned to out brain.

I ,still, grapple with: Do we have a brain,because we think or do we think because we have a brain.
Something like the chicken and the egg.

Liffrea
12-24-2009, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by SuuT
Hmmm...Well for one, I cannot wait to read your contribution. From the abstract you have given me,

Hopefully my position will become clearer once you have read through it, although as I have added in the introduction it is very much work in progress and based solely on my understanding at present. I hope you enjoy it for what it is in any case. All criticism is welcome.


however, I would take issue with the positio negatio from whence you seem to have proceeded with per se consciousness as a bequest. The resultant pathology of modernity (despite some valuable things we ought not 'give back' as it were) has no necessay connection to the Nordic algorithim of understanding the world - of Vor Siðr . If I may, it appears as if you are looking at the square-peg-round-hole dillemma that is an inevitable phase of passing-through modernity to reach atavistic practise that stands as defensible in this world - in the now. In short...no - in a question: What did the gods think of madness...? What was made - what was given - that was unnecessary...?

I wouldn’t say that I reject consciousness, and by extension humanity, but I see it, rather, in light of the anomaly that it is. Personally I think man’s history shows that we have spent a large portion of our time attempting to understand our place and often coming to wrong conclusions, but I believe there are ways and I see in Heimdall a symbol of that way, I see Odin as symbolic of the first to find the path, like Yama in Vedic lore, and Baldr as a possible apotheosis.

Although my argument may well seem negative, I would hasten to add I personally am not negative. If we accept my premise of consciousness as, in effect a wilful act of malice, but not in the Promethean sense, Prometheus acted with malice towards Zeus to give man, essentially, the path to godhood, in the later sense he had some nobility. Loki, by contrast, seemingly made a species self aware of what it is and it’s existence, just for the pleasure of inflicting suffering. Humans, as far as we know, are the only life that cares about the question why and then spends time worrying about the implications. But we are, as you write, the moral animal, and I think in our mythology we see Loki attempting to cope with an action, which he later comes to see as a mistake, not out of remorse but out of his own fear of what man could become.


We do?

I believe fear has been an underlying emotion in our species.


You do understand the symbology of Loke, no?

If there is a single thing that circumnavigates and hence encapsulates the whole of Nordic thought, it is that Deception is beneath those of the hearth; however, the use of other's self-deception is the fairest of game.

Loki as illusion? Actually I wonder how far Heimdall could be equated with Nietzsche’s Apollo? Illusion in the sense of enabling man to exist but without making him ignorant of true reality?

Amapola
03-30-2012, 11:57 AM
“All the love cast for centuries on the roads of time—is it possible that it is forever lost? To exist would be worse than absurd if there were not eternal life.” —Jacques Maritain, Notebooks, June 8, 1923

“The devil has the widest perspectives for God, and that I why he keeps so far away from him—the devil being the oldest friend of knowledge.” —Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, #129

“Morality demands that before evil is done by a man we should do everything to prevent it; and afterwards everything to undo it without inducing a greater evil; but if that is impossible, it demands that we recognize that which is: the existence of the evil that this man has committed, and which is there, which has been committed, which has taken its place in the course of the events of this world, together with the good on which it preys.” —Jacques Maritain, Integral Humanism, 1934

http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=1353&theme=home&loc=b

I.
Nietzsche remarks, recalling Genesis, that the devil is the “oldest friend” of precisely “knowledge.” The tree in the Garden was named the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.” The devil tempted Adam and Eve to partake of its fruit, contrary to the prohibition of God, the only one given to them. Had they not eaten of the tree, they would not, presumably, have had this kind of knowledge that comes to us when we actually do something evil, a concrete, not abstract, knowledge. The command was for their good. It gave them responsibility over their own fate, without which they would not have been free. We presume also that this famous aphorism of Nietzsche does not, in principle, suggest that the primary meaning or cause of evil is knowledge itself, but what we do with it. They understood what the prohibition required of them.
We likewise hesitate to identify the devil with knowledge and God with something else that is not knowledge. Deus Logos Est. The knowledge that an angel can know and God’s own knowledge are not in principle in opposition to each other. How could they be? The “truth” in the being of an angel is ultimately located in the creative knowledge of the Godhead about what is not God Himself, or better about what is known in Himself that can be imitated and chosen to exist outside of Him. The angel does not cause himself either to exist or to exist as an angel. The angel knows his relative rank in being.
Early in An Introduction to Philosophy, the French philosopher Jacques Maritain writes of the Zoroastrian or Manichean notions of evil. It is located in a separate god of evil. In the light of Nietzsche’s remark about the “oldest friend of knowledge,” Maritain’s comments are worth noting:

By his failure to perceive that God is the sole supreme principle and the source of everything which exists, so far as it partakes of being, and that evil is mere privation of being without positive existence, and therefore that no creature is evil by nature, Zoroaster ended in dualism and taught the existence of two principles uncreated and eternal, the principle of Good (Ormuzd) and the principle of Evil (Ahriman), who share the dominion over the universe and whose unrelenting struggle constitutes its history. So far as Ahriman is to be identified with the rebel angel of primitive tradition, Zoroastrianism tended to make the devil a god striving against God. Often we picture the devil as wanting to replace God, to himself become the one God.
Strictly speaking, the devil cannot think this way. He knows clearer than any other creature that he is not God. But he can, as Maritain put is, “strive against God.” His fallenness does not reduce him to nothing. His being remains what it is. This striving, to the extent that it succeeds, is his evil. He uses his being to corrupt other free beings. He seeks to interfere with God’s good and plan as it exists in creation and in creation’s purpose as it passes through the descendants of Adam and Eve. And the striving against God is not possible without the use of what is good. Good and evil are not two gods. The drama takes place within the souls of finite human beings in their own personhood among beings who are good. Evil remains primarily a lack of what is good as caused by a free being.
These views of knowledge and the devil’s friendliness to it are close to the Socratic affirmation that evil is really but ignorance. All we have to do to rid ourselves of evil is to know the truth. If we know it, we will do it. Learning itself ironically can thus become a kind of god, a cure of evil in the world. This approach is certainly tempting and often tried. It is “intellectual” without being “moral.” It bypasses personal responsibility. If we could locate evil in lack of knowledge alone, we could solve the human problem by progress in knowledge and the sciences, by simply building more schools and hiring more tenured faculty. This solution indeed is what Strauss called “the modern project,” the effort to solve all human problems by rearrangements of differing bodies of knowledge that would find the golden key to perfection . . .
This non-moral solution has zealously been advocated since the modern era began. No indication exists, however, that evil has declined in the light of increasing knowledge. We would, in this view, need no “repentance,” self-discipline, or grace before evil. We only need accurate knowledge. Knowledge alone would cure evil’s consequences. Instead of saying, “I’m sorry for what I did,” we would say, “I know now what I did.” Morality would become similar to correcting an error in a mathematics examination. It would only involve a correct understanding of the formulae, not our acknowledgment of our own contribution to what went wrong.
The stating of such propositions about evil is enough to give us pause. The history of politics shows that those who do the worst of evils are not the dumb, greedy, and stupid. The evils due to simple ignorance or dullardness are nowhere near as damaging as those stemming from what I call the philosophical politicians of this world. The Lenins, Maos, and Hitlers were not ignorant men who happened to acquire power. They were invariably men with a vision of how to make the world better and what prevented their cause to triumph.
This ameliorative or visionary purpose is why they took the trouble of acquiring power in the first place. Their most terrible crimes had a rationale about them, a logic, a knowledge component. Their immediate followers were enthusiastic and excited to participate in world-transforming forces, as they thought. Followers were not innocent of the same temptation of leaders. When their theories resulted in violations of human dignity or the Commandments, they preferred their theories.
We do know, however, that a basic knowledge component is found within anything evil, which is never just a “thing” but the lack of what should be there. Evil, though itself a lack, a nothing, must exist in a something which is good. Nietzsche’s devil is not such a bad character with whom to begin the questions of “How evil is evil?” “How good is good?” The devil makes it clear that the worst evil did not have its origin solely in the conflict of spirit and body as it uniquely exists in human beings. This diversity of parts does cause us problems if we do not relate the parts of our being properly to our end. But really great evils, as Aristotle had already intimated, are found in philosophic minds. The bringing together, or the failure to do so, of knowledge and good in freedom is the essence of the human drama.
But the remarkable thing about evil is not that it occurs only with the great tyrants and sinners. We are sobered by the Christian instinct that evil is present and possible wherever there are men and women, either to choose or to reject it in whatever situation of life they find themselves. Dostoyevsky, in Crime and Punishment, asked whether it was all right with impunity to eliminate an evil old lady who had no redeeming characteristics. He did not think so. Huck Finn is always wrestling with his conscience over what is right and wrong. Hannah Arendt caused something of a scandal in her treatment of the Nazi prison commander who was pretty banal, who was just following orders but who caused enormous evils. She was following a thesis of Augustine. She called it “the banality of evil.” She meant that it was found everywhere, not just in the great and powerful where we can see it more easily.
All of our literature depicts something of the extent and nature of evil, not just of evil alone but of the responses to it. The drama is no less poignant and burdensome among the ordinary people and among the poor than it is among the great and powerful. The reason for this is that all are called to salvation on the basis of their lives no matter in what sort of polity or economy they lived in. If there is anything that is strange about evil, it is the response to it. The whole dramatic interest of Christianity itself is the life of Christ. He came into the world, it is said, not to abolish evil directly but to enable us to have our sins forgiven, almost as to say that by removing evil as such, something greater would also be removed, namely our freedom. The removal of evil could not be a one-way operation on the part of the Godhead.
This very fact suggests, at first sight, that sins are more important than suffering. Adam and Eve did not suffer in the Garden. It also suggests the Socratic principle that it is “better to suffer evil than to do it.” At this point, Christ and Socrates are in full agreement. Both Socrates and Christ suffered evil unjustly imposed on them. They endured suffering when they had to rather than do something that seemed easy and simple, but wrong. They did not seek some “higher good” by doing evil to attain the good.
Something very democratic hovers about evil. It neglects no actual life. Each person decides in his thoughts and deeds where he stands before it. We see its consequences, if we will, in most divorces, however high-minded they are pictured to be. We see it in the effects on children, the spouses. We see it in the tremendous extent of the illegal drug business with its profits and ruined lives, the murders it takes to get contraband into various countries. We see it in the enormous cost to society when individuals refuse to reject what they usually understand perfectly clearly to be bad for everyone. We see that modern medicine and politics conceive themselves as agents to remove “suffering” as the sole human problem. They are not, however, agents to forgive the sins that cause the suffering.
II.
In his Gulag Archipelago, Solzhenitsyn tells of a Soviet official by the name of Yagoda. It seems that near the bathhouse on his estate, he used to set up Icons stolen from Russian Churches as objects of target practice with his pistols. Solzhenitsyn wonders if this shooting is an act of an “evildoer.” How are we to understand it? He wonders whether such people, evildoers, really exist.
We would prefer to say that such people cannot exist, that there aren’t any. It is permissible to portray evildoers in a story for children, so as to keep their picture simple. But when the great world literature of the past—Shakespeare, Schiller, Dickens—inflates and inflates images of evildoers of the blackest shades, it seems somewhat farcical and clumsy to our contemporary perception. The trouble lies in the way these classic evildoers are pictured. They recognize themselves as evildoers, and they know their souls are black. And they reason: “I cannot live unless I do evil. So I’ll set my father against my brother! I’ll drink the victim’s sufferings until I’m drunk with them!” Iago very precisely identifies his purposes and his motives as being black and born of hate.
We moderns think that such evildoings are really exaggerations. The great writers stretch the point. We read about them. At bottom, however, they talk of something we know in our own souls but we do not want to admit it. The evildoing does not exist outside of us.
Our “contemporary perceptions” will not see the truth in classic writers’ descriptions of evil. Partly they want to prevent us from vividly seeing the evils that we ourselves have put into the world, especially those against life and love, the kind that most often, we think, that lets us do what we want. This reason is, I suspect, why abortion, say, is never seen in its reality on television. In a world where everything is open, it is hidden. Classic evildoers, however, know and admit that they do evil. They hate. They choose to do their deeds. It becomes their life. Such life is “born of hate.” “Hatred of whom?” we wonder. Themselves? Every sin is also an offense against God. This is the root of this hatred, as it is the root of the redemption.
The only thing to hate would seem to be something that is the opposite of their own hatred, something that everyone calls good but they call evil. Further, we cannot just hate an abstraction. Hatred must be personal. God is normally “hated” under the rubric of being the cause of the evil we call good. The essential point of the account of the Fall of Man in Genesis, in fact, was nothing less than man wanting the divine power of being himself the one who defines what is good and what is evil.
The point was that this desire already implicitly was a turning away from the good that was prepared for him had he obeyed and understood that good though from another was for him. Unlike the angel who knows he is not God, man, at least in his own acts, can put into existence acts that are evil—that is, that lack the good that should be in them. Once these acts are chosen and put into existence, they remain in existence in their effect. They may or may not eventually be repented, but they remain, as “lacks,” among the ongoing complexities of actual existence. Human society is a web of actions interrelated as good and evil.
The strangest thing about actual human nature is that its own good was intended to be something more than its own natural good. As Aquinas said, “Homo non naturale sed supernaturale est.” This is an existential statement. It is not a denial that man is man. It is a denial that he is only what man would be were he not caught up, from his beginning both as a species and as an individual within that species, in something greater than he can imagine. “Nothing is more human than for man to desire naturally things impossible to his nature,” Maritain wrote in his Approaches to God.

It is, indeed, the property of a nature which is not closed up in matter like the nature of physical things, but which is intellectual or infinitized by the spirit. It is the property of a metaphysical nature. Such desires reach for the infinite, because the intellect thirsts for being and being is infinite. They are natural, but one may also call them trans-natural. It is thus that we desire to see God; it is thus that we desire to be free without being able to sin; it is thus that we desire beatitude. What is Maritain saying here? It is “more human” to desire things “naturally beyond” our nature? Is this desire not the very hubris, the pride that we were at pains to blame the devil, that “friend of knowledge,” for?
Maritain’s happy phrase “infinitized by the spirit” means that his finite nature is called to be more than nature assigns to it, noble as that is. His being “infinitized” is not of his own doing. It is the doing of what is not himself, by the Spirit, but it is not contrary to his given nature. The very nature of his intellect and love leave him open to something higher. So, though he is that, man is more than the “microcosmos” to which status the Greeks assigned him. He is literally invited, in his very first creation, to participate in the inner life of the Godhead, something that is not natural to him, yet it is something his nature can be called to by God, but only on condition of its being freely accepted. We are, as Maritain put it, “natural,” but also “trans-natural.” “Intellect thirsts for being and being is infinite.” But the being we encounter, finite being, is not itself “infinite” except in logic. In being it is only infinite if that is its source.
The questions I am asking are: “How good is good?” “How evil is evil?” These are not static questions. Being is not just another thing. As Solzhenitsyn put it, the classic evildoer says, “I cannot live unless I do evil.” “So I’ll set my father against my brother (The Brothers Karamazov). I’ll drink the victim’s sufferings until I’m drunk with them!” Notice that the evildoer, the devil, cannot “drink” the victim’s sins. But he can enjoy the victim’s “sufferings.” Sufferings are the consequences. What becomes visible because of the lack that is in the action that contains the evil. “How good is good?” What is striking about Christ is His relation, in this matter, to the Socratic principle that “It is better to suffer evil than to do it.” We, including Christ, would just as soon not have to suffer anything, no doubt. Since we do suffer, the question becomes how do we suffer?
The point is that the goodness of the good is shown both by the enjoyment and delight of the good that we know and by the suffering of evil rather than the doing of it. “Greater love than this no man hath than he who lays down his life for his friend.” Thus, not only does good present us with our own suffering in its name, but it leads us to friendship. This relationship can ask of us suffering for another. In the case of Christ, the friendship with God is something whose possibility Aristotle worried about. Christ laid down His life as our friends, as He told us. He laid it down to redeem our sins. His suffering was a result which He accepted.
III.
“How good is good?” In the Gospel According to Peanuts, a Schulz strip is reproduced that begins with Lucy and Charlie at the Stonewall. Both look straight ahead, but Charlie has his head on his elbow and hand. He says to Lucy: “All it would take to make me happy is to have someone say he likes me.” As they walk away, Lucy asks him, “Are you sure?” Charlie stops and tells here, “Of course I’m sure.” She replies, “You mean you’d be happy if someone merely said he or she likes you?”
In the next scene, Charlie is at the water fountain in the park. Lucy, looking on, continues, “Do you mean to tell me that someone has it within his or her power to make you happy merely by doing such a simple thing?” They walk on in the park, both with eyes straight ahead. “Yes! That’s exactly what I mean,” Charlie affirms.
Obviously thinking of herself, Lucy admits, “Well, I don’t think that’s asking too much. . . . I really don’t.” Lucy then looks directly at Charlie. “But you’re sure now? All you want is to have someone say, ‘I like you Charlie Brown . . .’ And then you’ll be happy?” Charlie, echoing her words, throws up his arms in elation, “And then I’ll be happy!” In the final scene, to a totally deflated Charlie Brown, Lucy, walking away, says firmly, “I can’t do it!”
This amusing scene contains a good bit of philosophy when sorted out. In a sense it presupposes the whole content of Christian revelation also. No doubt, there is something pleasantly naïve about Charlie and preternaturally hardheaded about Lucy, who is often said to represent the Protestant notion of the Fall and salvation by faith alone. Happiness, of course, is the result of receiving that good for which we are created. Charlie is always a bit forlorn, looking for someone, anyone, to love him. The very idea that he is lovable gives Lucy much pause. Every football season he puts his trust in her and every season she betrays his confidence by removing the ball just before he kicks it off.
Lucy for her part, while credulous of Charlie’s innocence about just one friend, is forced to admit that if this is what he wants, it is just a little thing. What can harm anything if she tells him she wants to be his friend? This whole conversation presupposes the “We are to love one another as I have loved you” of Scripture. It also portends the judgment scenes of Matthew, where we do not do such a simple thing as give a glass of water to a little one. Lucy is quite sure Charlie is a little one. Lucy is the woman of the world. She cannot stand naïveté. Charlie is just babbling pious phrases. “Are you sure all you want is for someone to say, ‘I like you Charlie Brown’?” He is sure but she just cannot do it. Lucy herself, of course, finds herself in the same situation when Schroeder, the pianist of whom she is most fond, won’t give her the time of day.
Ralph McInerny recently wrote on the Catholic Thing website of the mind of the modern philosophic atheist who wants easily to write off these questions of good and evil by a simple syllogism. It goes: “Evil exists. It can only exist if God permits it, because he is omnipotent. But if he is omnipotent and permits evil he cannot be good. The suggestion is that, if two of the divine attributes, omnipotence and goodness, cannot coexist, God as believers think of Him is impossible.” But these tired old arguments deflect attention to our input into the evil of the world. They also miss the fact that good things are given to us as well as the sufferings that we experience. Our understanding of good and evil “would make utterly no sense if earthly life were all we could expect.”
A correspondent by the name of “Willie” wrote to McInerny that both moral and physical disasters have to be reconciled with God’s love. We are to pray to be “delivered from evil. Why? I guess the bottom line of our question is ‘Why do we die?’ We are told we are here only temporarily. I ask, ‘What did man do to deserve this?’” It is this question that Benedict deals with in Spe Salvi. We did not do anything to deserve our existence. Death is both a punishment and a blessing. If prevents us from living endlessly this worldly life that modern science and ideology proposes to us as an alternative to what God has promised us. “Even the goods we work for rely on their achievement on unexpected twists and turns. If we in a whimper recognize the role of god in our lives when things go wrong, the psalmist is there to tell us that all of the works of the Lord bless the Lord. Creation is a chorus of gratitude and praise that drowns out complaints.”
IV.
How good is good? How evil is evil? “What formally constitutes His (God’s) Nature, so far as we can conceive it, is the act of intellection,” Maritain wrote in A Preface to Metaphysics.

But the privilege of God which most astounds our reason, His Glory, is the fact that in Him the ultimate and principal overflow—that of whose very nature it is to be an overflow—namely His Love, is identical with His essence and His existence. For God’s fundamental love is itself His elicit love and His esse. Therefore, from this point of view, when we regard God in the aspect of His glory, subsistent Love is his true and most secret Name, as subsistent intellect is His true Name when He is regarded in his aspect of His essence taken as such. Ergo, sum qui sum—Deus caritas est. The “glory” of God astounds our reason. His love is identified with His essence and existence. It constitutes an “overflow,” as Maritain put it. The very superabundance of God is already present in His being. Deus est. Deus Logos est. Deus caritas est. What did we do to deserve our temporariness? Why do we die? Is that the worst evil? It is if Christ did not die and did not die for our sins. How good is good? It is good enough to restore what is lost by those who listen to “the greatest friend of knowledge.” But it is not great enough to make a free being not to be a free being. Nor would we want it to be. It is great enough to redeem a free being who commits evil. It is not great enough to save him if he chooses not to be saved, for that would mean that he would cease to be what he is.
How good is good? It is good enough to create and invite other free creatures to live within its own inner life. How evil is evil? It is evil enough to reject this invitation. In the overflowing abundance of God’s inner love, His only choice was to create a world in which He would give being and respond to the free responses of the free beings He created. Outside these parameters, there could be no love or no overflow of His glory because His being cannot contradict itself or the beings that are rooted in his knowledge that results in what is.
“It demands that we recognize that which is: the existence of the evil that this man has committed, and which is there, which has been committed, which has taken its place in the course of the events of this world, together with the good on which it preys.”
“The devil is the oldest friend of knowledge.”
“To exist would be worse than absurd if there were no eternal life.”
To learn more, visit the ISI short course on Western Civilization (http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/index.aspx?theme=weciv&loc=p).




Wow, I miss this type of highbrow stuff. :( Not really on topic, but worth saying.

I read once that this Jacques Maritan's integral humanism was based on the liberal Catholicism, an attempt of conciliation between Catholicism and liberalism, repeatedly condemned by the Popes since Gregory XVI.

Maritain thought he could see how human fraternity would be reconciled in love, justice and peace, (despite their different beliefs), finding himself in a universal democracy and human rights. If we add (to this) the 60's anthropological optimism, we go in an adventure that ended up in catastrophe, according to the very major figures. For example, in 1966, Maritan published 'The peasant of the Garonne; an old layman questions himself about the present time', where Maritan describes the Church "down on its knees to the world".

These major figures of Catholicism/Liberalism are dead, but their ideas have been put in our mentalities that it seems there is nothing else, even for conservatives. I hope that present system crisis shows us the naivety of the anthropolical optimism.

Supreme American
03-30-2012, 11:59 AM
What constitutes evil in and of itself can be quite subjective.

GeistFaust
03-31-2012, 06:57 PM
Good and evil in their actual meaning as it applies to our reality are merely self-regulated by the social norms and cultures we dwell in. I think there is not a universal sense of good and evil, which means that such assertions is pure nonsense. I think some things definitely are more evil or good actions, but most of the time it depends on the judgment being made by the observer of a certain set of actions.


I think good and evil are concepts, which are formed in a relative manner in accordance with a certain group notion of good and evil. That is the concept of good and evil tends to be a notion developed with the construct of a group, and is utilized as a defense mechanism for the personality or ego of this group. Good and evil are mental constructs which are in large constructed to make sense of our life and our environment.


Humans are always trying to understand the mysterious and unknown, and this stimulates a reaction to it by trying to filter an appropriate understanding of it. That said I believe there are a few objective implications in the concepts of good and evil as it pertains to our actions. That said these objective implications are not necessarily validated apriori nor do they have just a metaphysical/ontological significance attached to them.


Murder and Rape for instance are actions which warrant social punishment, and are violations of not just the private dignity of the person, but the public principles and rules of a society. The public principles and rules have been constructed in order to protect the private dignity of the individual, but this public notion of legislative measures and principles is mostly subjective.


That is for the most part what is deemed as right and moral is based on a subjective basis collected within the confines of the letter of the law. This means there are certain conditions and criterias based on subjective mandates, which warrant a person right or wrong in regards to the concepts of good and evil.

The qualification for someone being right or wrong on the basis of these subjective mandates is determined by subjective judgments made of evidence or second hand observations of the intent and consequences of a person's action.


The consequences don't necessarily warrant that a person intended such, but they could still be prosecuted if they did not take the necessary measures to protect themselves from having such a course of events occur. At the same time the intent can not always be judged with accuracy, and only can be understood in so far as their is evidence to critique it.


The consequences of an intention don't give us a necessary to intentionality, but they do indicate probability of intention, which is something that is verified through evidence and second account observations. In total it all comes down to the probability of a thing being right or wrong on subjective measures by subjective forces of authority, which induct something through reason on the basis of evidence and second account observations.


Its impossible to know exactly and with certainty the truth of a situation, but its probable to catch glimpses of it, and sometimes this is all that matters when it comes to applying the concept of good and evil in the context of social norms. I think a distinction needs to be made between right and morality, which are two separate cases, although they do correlate and connect at certain points and to a certain extent.


Although morality is largely a subjective matter, I believe that morality is something made off of privative judgments and interpretations of a situation, and the appropriate course of action or behavior that should be taken in reaction to it.


Right is something that is grounded in public legislative, and thus is more of a matter of legal measures and social norms. That said its the task of social norms and legal measures to apply morality in these cases, because morality deals with privative judgments based on a pre-conceived notion of morality, which is programmed into someone via social norms and group concepts.


This means that what is right ought to be moral in the context that it is understood, but what is moral can not always be given an adequate and appropriate meaning through the application of what is right. Social norms are not enough to explain morality at times, although they have an obligation to preserve morality in the social sense.


Most morality derives itself and depends on social situations where a course of actions and behaviors in reaction to a certain situation is judged in accordance with certain social norms or pre-conceived subjective principles and judgments of what is moral in the social sense.


That which is moral in the social sense does not necessarily need to have the implication of being right or wrong in the public and legal sense, but it could have implications as to how people judge you.



That is the privative judgments of others still apply outside the boundaries of the law, although they have no justification for exercising it beyond their own subjective critiques outside the confines of their private property.

A privative judgment of right, which deals with morality, does not necessarily have to do with what is right, but what is right usually has to deal with privative judgments of morality. These privative judgments though should accord with a common and public notion of right and wrong.

That is they should ground themselves in a subjective manner in accordance with subjective mandates and legislation, which has been constructed as being the most probable way of securing social morality. Outside the public and common notion of right and morality, which derives itself from social situations and applies itself to such there is only a few independent apriori objective morals and privative judgments of morality.


The former can only derive a reality from itself within the confines of a civilized and rational society. That is there is a higher probability of apriori objective morals being applied if we construct a larger and broader framework around it. That is the instincts reaction to such a necessary state is only possible and actual in the sense that it has a rational structure through which to implement itself.


If not for this rational and civil structure, which is formulated in the social norms and common law, there can be no possible application or forumlation for the possibility of an apriori objective morals. This is to say there is no room through which to ground it, and thus make it a living reality.


Social right ought to protect these apriori objective morals, and safeguard them as the most essential keys to preserving the social order of society. This social order generally deals with private groups, but it applies in a much broader sense, and the dysfunction of a single private group brings risk to the social order of society in total.


Its out of these social rights, norms, and the public law that such a concept of apriori objective morals can be conceived of. If not for public law then there would be merely privative judgments of right and morality, which would create a disjunction in the possibility of forming a coherent social community.


It was man's tendency and inclination towards living in communities, which created the need for a public system of rights, which would not just ground morals in the legal sense, but would give way to the few apriori objective morals.


The violation of apriori objective morals is a violation of natural law, and creates not just an abuse of society/state, but generally an abuse of the body/private property of the person. Its my belief that it weakens the life energies of the person committing the abuse as well as the individual upon whom the crime is committed.


It creates physical health and psychological issues, and generally this issues can never be ammended or take some time to heal. These are seen as negative and immoral actions, because of the violations made against the privative judgment of a person.


Everyone ought to have a right to a privative judgment, but their exercising of such a judgment should accord with what is right in society and ought to accord with the right of the authority figure of a certain privative zone.


The right to exercise a privative judgment in relation to certain acts, thoughts/ideas, and subject-matters should only be exercised in the public eye if one has reached the proper qualifications to exercise such a right. Inherent rights and morals is nonsense if one has does not have the capacity or does not acheive certain measures in order to attain certain privileges.

arcticwolf
04-01-2012, 04:16 PM
I would rather look at it form the skillful/unskilful angle. That which leads to understanding in synch with reality is skillful that which don't is unskillful.

Barreldriver
04-01-2012, 10:36 PM
The broadly used word "good" I would presume is meant to mean ethical in the context of this discussion.

I severely dislike over-wordiness in philosophical discussions, leaves too much room for infractions of informal fallacy. I will give a syllogistic response to the subject of Good and Evil.

"Cesare" (EAE-2):

No P are M.
All S are M.
Therefore, No S are P.

No knowledge that is dependent on personal experience (P) is a priori knowledge (M).
All inherent truths (S) are a priori knowledge (M).
∴ No inherent truths (S) are dependent on personal experience (P).

"Camenes" (AEE-4):

All P are M.
No M are S.
Therefore, No S are P.

All affirmations of perceptions pertaining to being ethical (P) are dependent on social norms (M).
No social norms (M) are derivative of a priori knowledge (S).
∴ No forms of a priori knowledge (S) are able to affirm perceptions of being ethical (P).


"Camestres" (AEE-2):

All P are M.
No S are M.
Therefore, No S are P.


All inherent truth (P) is a priori (M).
No perception of being ethical (S) is a priori (M).
∴ No perception of being ethical (S) is inherently true (P).


- Seth A. Reeder/Amos Pennyfew

Beethoven
06-06-2012, 05:46 PM
suicide if you have children = evil ( unless your children doesnt care about you and can take care of their own selves)
suicide if you doesnt have children = good

Killing weak person - if weak person want to die = good
Killing weak person if weak person doesnt want to die = evil

arcticwolf
06-09-2012, 01:26 PM
Let's take another stab at this. In short good and evil are concepts, not reality itself. It's just a law, like gravity. It can be discovered, it's not man made. How well it is understood it's a different matter altogether. It's a part of the fundamental law of everything the law of cause and effect, gravity etc is a part of it as well. What moral flavor the particular thought, word or deed has depends on the quality of the mind of that individual. The more advanced, clearer view of reality the more "moral" behavior becomes. Forget rules and punishment that's not morality in the true sense, morality comes from understanding reality. When mind starts comprehending reality, it starts transforming itself, the whole view of existence changes. The mind begins to realize what leads to spiritual progress and what does not. When and if that happens the mind naturally becomes kinder, gentler, more patient, more compassionate, more loving etc not because it becomes a hippie like ;) but because it sees what the blind to reality folk do to themselves and others and it ain't pretty. ;) Once the mind is transformed, there is no going back to being confused and dim, the mind has no choice but to move forward.

I know, it's not the easiest thing to understand this intellectually, to understand this experientially is multitudes harder.

To sum it up. Life is about spiritual development, that's why we are here. It does no matter if you understand this or not, that's not gonna change to suit your opinion, if you are not developing your mind and growing spiritually you are wasting your time. "Good" and "Evil" are concepts but they relate to the law of cause and effect, what you think, say and do matters to you and everything else. There is no Big Ghost in the sky, there is no savior, it's you and you mind. That's it. Better make the right choices, because you won't escape the consequences, regardless of your understanding. Good luck! :thumb001: