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Jarl
12-23-2009, 12:20 PM
http://i50.tinypic.com/5vyl45.jpg



Introduction


Human populations across the world are characterized by generally low genetic differences as compared with their intrapopulation variation. These differences can be quantitative, pronounced in different frequencies of the same derived states of ancient polymorphic markers (eg, majority of the HapMap markers1), or qualitative, in which case younger derived variants are found restricted to a particular geographic region or population. The Y-chromosome haplogroup structure frequently shows a good qualitative correlation with continental boundaries, and the geographic specificity of the markers can most often be explained by their phylogenetic descent order rather than by drift alone.2,3 Recently evolved polymorphisms unless amplified by selection or specific founder effects tend to have low frequencies in modern populations, characterized generally by increased effective population sizes in the Holocene period. One of the notable outliers to this rule, because of its high frequency and young age, is the transcontinental spread of haplogroup R1a.4,5 Early observations have led to various interpretations associating R1a phylogeography with certain cultural developments of the past. Even though R1a occurs as the most frequent Y chromosome haplogroup among populations representing a wide variety of language groups, such as Slavic, IndoIranian, Dravidian, Turkic and Finno-Ugric, many authors have been particularly interested in the link between R1a and the Indo-European language family. For example, R1a frequency patterns have been discussed6,7 in the context of the purported link connecting IndoEuropean-speaking pastoralists and the archeological evidence on the distribution of the Kurgan culture in the Pontic steppe.8 A more precise interpretation of the underlying prehistoric and historic episodes of R1a chromosomes across this wide span of Eurasian geography remains largely unknown because of insufficient information on the phylogenetic subdivisions within haplogroup R1a. We address this shortcoming here by analyzing more than 11 000 DNA samples from across Eurasia, including more than 2000 from haplogroup R1a to ascertain the phylogenetic information of the newly discovered R1a-related SNPs. We also examine the STR diversity of the associated R1a subclades to better understand the demographic history and prehistoric cultural associations of one of the most widely spread and frequent Y-chromosome haplogroups in the world with post-Last Glacial Maximum origin.


Materials and Methods


Twelve recently reported R1a markers ascertained in one R1a1 individual2,9 across extensive but unspecified coverage and two new SNPs discovered in two R1a1 individuals during a scan of B44 kb10 were genotyped by denaturing high-performance liquid chromatography (DHPLC) and confirmed by direct sequencing in an initial screening of 18 DNA samples belonging to haplogroup R1a from different geographic regions spanning Scandinavia to India. Twelve of these markers were derived in all individuals carrying the M17 mutation, whereas one of the markers, Page68, exhibited an ancestral allele in all samples and was therefore not evaluated further. In addition, two new SNPs were discovered. One (M434) while surveying another SNP reported in the flanking sequence of DYS43811 by DHPLC in a globally representative collection of DNAs that included individuals from Pakistan, and another (M458) was discovered during the initial survey of the Hinds et al9 rs17250901 homopolymer variant. Markers M434 and M458 were variable in a subset of the 18 R1a screening samples and represent new informative subclades of R1a1. Another SNP (M334) was ascertained previously by DHPLC in one Estonian in a panel of 48 R1a1 samples. Marker M334 was not observed in an additional survey of 100 R1a1 Estonian samples and was not studied further. In the population surveys, the markers were genotyped either by DHPLC, RFLP or TaqMan (Applied Biosystems, Foster City, CA, USA) assays. Within specific haplogroups, median-joining networks were constructed. Specifications for the analyses are detailed in the relevant figure legends. The age of microsatellite variation within haplogroups was evaluated using the methodology described by Zhivotovsky et al12 as modified according to Sengupta et al13 using microsatellite evolutionary effective mutation rate of 6.9Â10À4 per 25 years. Sample sizes and frequencies of the main R1a subclades are reported in Supplementary Tables 1–3. STR haplotype data are given in Supplementary Tables 4, 6 and 7. Supplementary Table 5 reports the primer sequences used in genotyping the informative SNPs.


RESULTS AND DISCUSSION


By using the new SNP markers, we were able to fractionate the R1a defining node into a nested series of branches that are reinforced by multiple phylogenetically equivalent mutations (inset, Figure 1). All chromosomes unresolved previously beyond the R1-M173* level14,15,35,36 that were available to us are now attributed to either R1a*-M420 or R1b*-M343 haplogroups. Consequently, we revise the haplogroup nomenclature following the YCC guidelines.3,5 Although the occurrences of the most basal haplogroup R1a*-M420(xSRY10831.2) and the intermediate haplogroup R1a1*-SRY10831.2(xM17) are rare (Supplementary Table S1), the descendent haplogroup R1a1a-M17 assemblage displays informative frequencies above a few percent in populations comprising a broad expanse of Eurasian geography ranging from Norway and Northeast Asia to south India, whereas frequencies above 10% occur in East Europe, West, South and central Asia (Supplementary Table S2, Figure 1). With the exception of a few localized low-frequency subhaplogroups,4,14,37 the majority of haplogroup R1a1a chromosomes have remained so far phylogenetically indistinct.


Recent Arabian Sea gene flow

The marker M434, defining the novel Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a1a6, was observed altogether in 14 individual samples in our screening of 691 R1a1a chromosomes (Supplementary Table S3). Given these data, the haplogroup R1a1a6 distribution seems to be restricted mainly to Pakistan whereas the Omani R1a1a6 samples, all three of which share the same STR haplotype, indicate recent gene flow across the Persian Gulf. The low STR haplotype diversity of R1a1a6 and its absence in 212 Indian R1a1a samples suggest that the M434 mutation may have arisen recently in Pakistan.

In situ diversification

In Central Europe In contrast to the restricted geographic pattern of M434, the R1a1a7 defining marker, M458, was found to be variable in a number of populations, and thus it provides the first significant geographic compartmentalization within the overarching haplogroup R1a distribution. The haplogroup R1a1a7 distribution is confined to Central and Eastern Europe and does not extend eastward beyond the Ural Mountains or southward beyond Turkey (Supplementary Table S2, Figure 2). Its spread in the Caucasus is specific: although absent in the Dagestanian group, it is present at low frequencies both in the northwestern and southern populations, and in particular in Karanogays, who only relatively recently were spread as pastoral nomadic people alongside the Ponto-Caspian steppe belt. The highest frequency of haplogroup R1a1a7 (over 30%) is observed in Central and Southern Poland. Frequencies higher than 10% occur among Western and Eastern Slavic populations whereas elsewhere in Europe, including Southern Slavic groups, the frequency of the derived M458G allele decreases rapidly away from its frequency peak that coincides broadly with the overall R1a1a frequency maximum in Poland (Figures 1 and 2). The R1a1a*(xM458) chromosomes on the other hand are less frequent in Poland and display frequency maximums in Belarus and southwest Russia (Supplementary Table S2). Analysis of associated STR diversity profiles revealed that among the R1a1a*(xM458) chromosomes the highest diversity is observed among populations of the Indus Valley yielding coalescent times above 14 KYA (thousands of years ago), whereas the R1a1a* diversity declines toward Europe where its maximum diversity and coalescent times of 11.2 KYA are observed in Poland, Slovakia and Crete. As islands such as Crete have been subject to multiple episodes of colonization from different source regions, it is not inconsistent that R1a1a* Td predates the date of its first colonization by the first farmers approximately 9 KYA.38 Also noteworthy is the drop in R1a1a* diversity away from the Indus Valley toward central Asia (Kyrgyzstan 5.6 KYA) and the Altai region (8.1 KYA) that marks the eastern boundary of significant R1a1a* spread (Figure 1, Supplementary Table S4.). In Europe, Poland also has the highest R1a1a7-M458 diversity, corresponding to approximately an 11 KYA coalescent time (Supplementary Table S4). Other populations in Europe exhibit declining diversity when sampled at increasing distance away from Central Europe (Figure 2). Westward of the Rhine overall R1a1a frequency is low, signaling a genetic boundary with R1b varieties.39 However, the patterns of currently observed Y-chromosome diversity in East/Central Europe are unlikely to be explained solely by population movements of the last century.40

http://i48.tinypic.com/2yx2jhf.jpg


Although the median STR haplotype of the derived M458G allele differs from the median type of the ancestral M458A chromosomes at 3 of the 10 STR loci considered in our analyses, the STR data alone are not informative for unambiguous inference of whether an individual has the A or G allele (Supplementary Figures S1 and S2) underscoring the extent of STR saturation and the importance of SNP genotyping to assess phylogenetic ancestry even among closely related lineages.


Phylogeography

Haplogroup frequency, haplotype diversity and coalescent times are three parameters that can be considered as informative for making inferences about the origins and polarity of spread of alleles among populations. The most distantly related R1a chromosomes, that is, both R1a* and R1a1* (inset, Figure 1), have been detected at low frequency in Europe, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Caucasus and Iran14,41 (Supplementary Table S1). The highest STR diversity of R1a1a*(xM458) chromosomes are observed outside Europe, in particular in South Asia (Figure 1, Supplementary Table S4), but given the lack of informative SNP markers the ultimate source area of haplogroup R1a dispersals remains yet to be refined. In Europe a large proportion of the R1a1a variation is represented by its presently identified subclade R1a1a7-M458 that is virtually absent in Asia. Its major frequency and relatively low diversity in Europe can be explained thus by a founder effect that according to our coalescent time estimation falls into the early Holocene period, 7.9±2.6 KYA (Supplementary Table S4). The highest regional date of 10.7±4.1 KYA among Polish R1a1a7 carriers falls into the period of recolonization of this region by Mesolithic (Swiderian and subsequent cultures) settlers.42,43 The time window of 10À5 KYA BP is a culturally complex juncture period between the Mesolithic and early Neolithic in Europe, thus, not allowing us to relate founder effect with any particular culture specifically. Most broadly, the autochthonous European origin of haplogroup R1a1a7, its narrow spatial distribution and the inversely related decreasing expansion times with increased distance from its core frequency and diversity area are suggestive of a notably successful demic expansion starting from a small subset of radiating founder lineages during the early Holocene period. It should be noted, though, that the inevitably large error margins of our coalescent time estimates do not allow us to exclude its association with the establishment of the mainstream Neolithic cultures, including the Linearbandkeramik (LBK), that flourished ca. 7.5À6.5 KYA BP in the Middle Danube (Hungary) and was spread further along the Rhine, Elbe, Oder, Vistula river valleys and beyond the Carpathian Basin.44

Migratory and early agricultural zones

River valleys are migratory corridors for organisms including humans and such riparian habitats provide opportunities for the forager lifestyle, settled agriculture and establishment of trade networks. The Neolithic communities in Central Europe were primarily located on the margins of river valleys with fertile soils at elevations less than 500 m.45 Haplogroup R1a1a7-M458 diversity and frequency are highest in river basins known to be associated with several early and late Neolithic cultures (Figure 2, Supplementary Figure S3). Assuming the founder effect we detect originated in the sparse Mesolithic population of Central-North Europe, the genetic evidence suggests strong cultural interaction and admixture occurred between the pioneer horticultural groups and local foragers, which resulted in widespread adaptation of the Neolithic lifestyle by indigenous residents. This interpretation is consistent with computational models indicating that although the process of the expansion of farming communities throughout much of Europe would have been demic, even minute amounts of gene flow from foragers over a long time period would have lead to a predominantly Mesolithic contribution to their admixed offspring.46 Following this model, it would not be surprising to associate a localized Neolithic demic expansion with a genetic lineage absent in the Fertile Crescent where farming originated and where other Y-chromosome haplogroups, such as G and J, have been associated with the initial demic spread of farming toward Southeast Europe.38 However, it should be noted that ancient mtDNA evidence from the Central European Mesolithic and LBK sites shows a lack of substantial continuity between Mesolithic, Neolithic and presently living populations of the area.47,48 Notably, mtDNA haplogroups R1a, U4, U5, HV3 and HV4, which have been inferred to have pre-Neolithic spread in East Europe, occur at marginally low frequencies in India.49 It is noteworthy that the LCT-13910T allele associated with lactase persistence and agricultural pastoralism overlaps broadly with the spatial distribution50 of the derived M458G allele. Direct ancient DNA evidence suggests that the lactase persistence allele would have reached high frequency in this area, likely due to strong positive selection, only after the LBK period.51 However, computer simulations have shown that its increased frequency particularly in North Europe does not necessarily imply stronger effect of positive selection there than in other parts of Europe.52 Ancient DNA evidence for the Y-chromosome M458G allele is still lacking and it is therefore possible only to speculate about its existence and prevalence in Neolithic Europe. Beyond its spread in the Central European river basins (Figure 2), the LBK extended around the northern Carpathians into the steppe zone of Ukraine and participated in the establishment of the Cris¸ culture.53 Our data showing high frequency of R1a1a north of the Carpathians and its lower frequency to the South, in the Tisza river valley, are consistent with the genetic boundary previously reported for this region.16

http://chrobacja.svasti.org/R1a1a7.gif

http://i47.tinypic.com/2nu54rd.jpg

Copper and Bronze age parallels


Figure 2 also shows a remarkable geographic concordance of the R1a1a7-M458 distribution with the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age Corded Ware (CW) cultures of Europe that prospered from ca. 5.5À4.5 KYA BP.54 Ancient DNA evidence from a 4600-year-old multiple burial unearthed near Eulau, Germany and attributed to the Central European CW culture, identified the remains of three males carrying the SRY10831.2 mutation and sharing the same YSTR haplotype, implying a single family lineage.55 Although haplogroup affiliation cannot be inferred with certainty from STR data alone, a composite 15-locus YSTR haplotype representing the ancient lineage suggests its potential R1a1a*(xM458) membership due to four alleles (DYS391¼11, DYS439¼10, DYS389B¼17 and DYS458¼15) shared with the median R1a1a*(xM458) haplotype (Supplementary Tables S4 and S7). Interestingly, from the list of regional median haplotypes, the ancient haplotype is most similar to the German R1a1a*(xM458) type.


Indo-Europeans

Indo-Europeans A final comment can be made concerning the relationship between R1a phylogeography and contested origin of Indo-Europeans that is generally, though not solely, attributed to either Anatolia, the South Caucasus or the North Pontic-Caspian regions (Gray and Atkinson56 and references therein). Haplogroup R1a1a occurs in all three of these areas and beyond at informative frequencies (Figure 1). Consistent with its wide geographic spread, the coalescent time estimates of R1a1a correlate with the timing of the recession of the Last Glacial Maximum and predate the upper bound of the age estimate of the Indo-European language tree. Although virtually absent among Romance, Celtic and Semitic speakers, the presence and overall frequency of haplogroup R1a does not distinguish Indo-Iranian, Finno-Ugric, Dravidian or Turkic speakers from each other. Some contrast, however, is unfolding in its subclade frequencies. Although the R1a1a* frequency and diversity is highest among Indo-Aryan and Dravidian speakers, the subhaplogroup R1a1a7-M458 frequency peaks among Slavic and Finno-Ugric peoples. Although this distinction by geography is not directly informative about the internal divisions of these separate language families, it might bear some significance for assessing dispersal models that have been proposed to explain the spread of Indo-Aryan languages in South Asia as it would exclude any significant patrilineal gene flow from East Europe to Asia, at least since the mid-Holocene period.

Agrippa
12-23-2009, 01:12 PM
Great material!

If looking at this image:
http://i48.tinypic.com/2yx2jhf.jpg

It really shows the early Indoeuropean centres very good, with one exception, namely Central Asia, which has been shaped by the Turko-Mongol expansions, which also leads to this comment:


Although virtually absent among Romance, Celtic and Semitic speakers, the presence and overall frequency of haplogroup R1a does not distinguish Indo-Iranian, Finno-Ugric, Dravidian or Turkic speakers from each other.

Well, mainly because some Indoeuropeans became Finno-Ugrian and Turkic speakers, like one can easily recognise among Southern Finns, Western Estonians, some Mordvins and of course various Turkic people, which have a significant part of the Indoeuropean heritage, since they occupy regions now, which were formerly known as Indoeuropean core areas, sometimes even into historical times, like Central Asia. The Uyghurs f.e. are half Indoeuropean-half Turks - racially Europid : Mongolid.

In Central Asia there is just a huge, "unnatural" hole which can be explained like already mentioned.

For the European situation, one has just to look at the map they provided:
http://chrobacja.svasti.org/R1a1a7.gif

A large part of North-Eastern Europe was once occupied by cultures related to Indoeuropeans.

Now a lot of the later expansion can be attributed to the Slavs, whereas there were secondary expansions of Indoeuropeanised people, like from Scandinavia to Southern Finland.

Yet they didnt differentiate the current Finno-Ugrian and Turkic speakers from the respective homelands. Especially for the Turkic speakers the situation is really conclusive, if not ignoring the historical evidence.

And even in the Dravidian areas, we face major expansions of Northern Indian groups, especially among the higher caste people, into the South.

The only important hint for this case comes in this sentence:

as it would exclude any significant patrilineal gene flow from East Europe to Asia

Well, I would wait for further results, not ignoring Central Asia and keeping in mind, that similar to the situation in Central and Eastern Europe or to the Neolithisation of Europe, those which were the original bearers might have given the cultural package to new with limited genflow, so long until little of the original group was left.

Again like they explained it in the text for the Neolithic situation and the possibility, that for the LBK the R1a carriers were probably more important than other groups. Which would be related to the fact, that unlike some authors claimed, they had many variants among them which can be directly related to the Corded Ware - which builds up a possible continuity of racial forms and genetic legacy in this region from early Neolithic times on.

Jarl
12-23-2009, 01:40 PM
What caught my attention is that R1a1a7 is almost entirely confined to Slavs. And that its diversity peaks, like that of R1a1a*, in Poland. The green inset map, in figure 2, suggests an early expansion from the Vistula basin.


Similar are the findings of Klyosov:

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_67/8035000/8035581/1/print/8035581.pdf

According to A. KLOSOW and I. ROŻANSKIJ (7.12.2009), R1a1a7 clade emerged during Italo-Celtic expansion carrying R1b1b2 about 2500 years ago, which apparently diluted the other Eurasian R1a1.

R1a1a7 is currently by far the most common European R1a clade.

http://www.tropie.tarnow.opoka.org.pl/images/haplogr458.gif

It can be divided into:

- Western group - (white points above) whose ancestor lived 200 BC in Elbe-Oder-Vistula basins.


- Central group - (grey points above) whose ancestor lived 500 BC, South of the Carpathians, perhaps in Slovakia.


This is very interesting, particularly that Corded Ware skeletons from Eulau, 40 km away from Leipzig were found to carry R1a1a. This is a strong argumnet in favour of Slavs being descendants of Corded-Ware horizon culture, as well as their autochtonism to the Vistula basin where Pomeranian and then Przeworsk/Oksywie cultures developed.

Psychonaut
12-23-2009, 03:47 PM
Argh! It's fascinating, but they don't list which DYS values define the halplogroup! I'm R1a1, but my DYS values don't fit with any of the R1a modal haplotypes, so I'm always interested in new R1a reaearch.

Agrippa
12-23-2009, 03:57 PM
This is very interesting, particularly that Corded Ware skeletons from Eulau, 40 km away from Leipzig were found to carry R1a1a. This is a strong argumnet in favour of Slavs being descendants of Corded-Ware horizon culture, as well as their autochtonism to the Vistula basin where Pomeranian and then Przeworsk/Oksywie cultures developed.

The Elau samples seem to be closest to German variants it seems and of course, they also expanded further West and into Norway even.

So one could say a large parts of Germans and Germanics in general is "mixed Corded", the Iranians and Proto-Baltoslavs seem to show a great continuity, until they spread into different areas and assimilated other people.

Its also noteworthy that some of the most typical Corded Ware variants came from the earlist ones in the centre and the fringes later - even in Switzerland.

So those from Switzerland some hundred years later were sometimes closer to the original standard than those which still lived in the centre.

This can mean two things:
The Corded Ware bearers, the anthropological core group lived almost always beside other elements, even in their centres they had other elements among their neighbours. So they can be best defined as a tribal organisation, with a specific way of life etc., not just as a regional group.

This is also true for the earlier groups, LBK and the like, which often lived side by side with hunter and gatherers of different farmer groups, with no or very slow intermixture.

Those marching South, even to Switzerland, kept the original tradition, lived their way of life with the specific selective mechanisms and without too much admixture from the surrounding, foreign groups, whereas those which became more sedentary and made closer contacts to others, "changed" somewhat, both due to mixture and a changing lifestyle with different selective mechanisms.

Probably I'm overestimating some comments made by anthropologists, but its quite interesting that the Corded Ware people were a rather extreme form, well in the limits of the leptodolichomorphic Europeans of that time, but in some regards, f.e. with their head height and narrowness of the skull and face, just more extreme in a specific direction.

Yet not all of them, nor through the whole time of the Corded Ware horizons existence.

They seem to have almost "exploded" in various directions one said. And during this sudden expansion, they lost from one step to the next, one area to the next and over time more and more of their original character and impetus, until the expansion stopped and under those which came in their sphere of influence new cultures and subgroups rise - like that we might already connect to Proto-Germanics, Proto-Celts etc.

Another very important issue is how overdominant the R1a variants really were among the Indoeuropeans. They are proven so far, their importance being made sure now, both in the West (Corded Ware) and East (Scythians and related), now how much of an influence had the Neolithic markers, especially J and also autochthonous I and R1b...

I just hope they come up with more results like that of Elau, which will help to clear up a lot of open questions.

They should look for Battle Axe/Corded people in Scandinavia, Fatjanovo and probably even Thracians, Central Asian cultures which could be related to Indoaryans etc.

Does anybody of you know something about yDNA from the LBK group?

EWtt
12-24-2009, 07:21 PM
Well, mainly because some Indoeuropeans became Finno-Ugrian and Turkic speakers, like one can easily recognise among Southern Finns, Western Estonians, some Mordvins and of course various Turkic people

A large part of North-Eastern Europe was once occupied by cultures related to Indoeuropeans.

Now a lot of the later expansion can be attributed to the Slavs, whereas there were secondary expansions of Indoeuropeanised people, like from Scandinavia to Southern Finland.


It was found in the study "Migration Waves to the Baltic Sea Region" that the Baltic and Swedish R1a1 haplotypes had affinities mainly with Germany and Poland in database comparisons, which suggested gene flow from that region. I1a had been involved in bifurcating migrations both via Sweden and the Baltic states. The lower frequency of I1a among the Baltic populations may be due to later effects of genetic drift or replacement. It is plausible that both R1a1 and I1a were carried to the Baltic Sea region via the same Neolithic migrations from Germany/Poland.

Proto-Baltic-Finnic language basically came to be by having strong early Germanic (especially Scandinavian) and proto-Baltic influence in the language structure, vocabulary and sound system.

Lahtari
12-25-2009, 04:27 AM
And after a few thousand years, when our civilization has fallen and risen again, they'll be talking about "Industrial Y chromosome" or "the Y chromosomal haplotype of the Industrial (Western) Culture"?

Why? And why not? Because the change from hunter-gathering to agriculture was so much more important of a cultural change than the change from hillbillyism to nuclear plants, factories, metropolises, fighter jets and spacecrats?

Oh, wait a minute... ;)

Agrippa
12-26-2009, 07:36 PM
From the biological point of view, the cultural impact on the genetic and racial make up of a people is crucial and this was huge for the Neolithic revolution it seems and rather minor for Industrialisation so far, if ignoring the contraselective trends, demographic change and immigration, which has little to do with the technological advancements and being rather a spiritual, social, political and economic problem.

Polako
01-03-2010, 08:14 AM
R1a1a7 (M458) is an awesome find, and really something for those of us into the Slavic side of things. But understanding the structure of R1a1a (xM458) in Europe is really going to show us a lot about the earlier linguistic groups, like the proto-Indo-Europeans.

Going by that Underhill paper, the most diverse and so oldest xM458 in Europe seems to be in Poland and Slovakia. Also, the lineages there are very similar to those in Germany (where xM458 is just a bit younger than in Poland) and Russia. So it's likely that R1a1a moved from present day Poland during the development of the TRB (Funnelbeaker) Culture, and probably also during the time of the Corded Ware cultural horizon.

Indeed, the proto-Indo-Iranian (Andronovo etc.) and early Scythian R1a1a lineages, recovered from ancient bones, are also very similar to the modern ones from North/Central/East Europe. And then there are the interesting links between far off European and Asian regions involving very specific haplotype matches, like between Polish and Indian xM458, and between Swedish and Kyrgyzstani xM458.

I'm quietly hoping studies are being done on all of that right now, plus some additional Y-DNA and genome-wide SNPs pulled from those Indo-Iranian skeletons. I think it'll be possible to totally settle this whole issue about Indo-European origins and migrations around Europe and Asia within the next year or so.

Jarl
01-03-2010, 09:22 AM
I'm quietly hoping studies are being done on all of that right now, plus some additional Y-DNA and genome-wide SNPs pulled from those Indo-Iranian skeletons. I think it'll be possible to totally settle this whole issue about Indo-European origins and migrations around Europe and Asia within the next year or so.

For now it seems like a strong argument in favour of the local, Funnelbeaker and Corded-Ware origin of at least some IEs - mainly the Celto-Italics and Balto-Slavs. It also seems like a strong argument in favour of the Trzciniec horizon origins of Balto-Slavs and Pomeranians/Przeworsk roots of the Slavs/Lechites.

Erik
01-05-2010, 10:37 PM
But I should like to know if there is found some R1a1a7 west of the Oder, for example
in West-Germany or France?

Hweinlant
01-05-2010, 10:51 PM
How low can you guys go ? Really ? NE Europe was part of Hermanarics Goth Empire hundreds of years prior a single Slav put his foot there.

Lets see what Jordanes said:

Hermanaric fought and conguered warlike northerners as:
Thiudos Inaunxis Vasinabroncas Merens Mordens Imniscaris ..

This is People of Aunus, Vepsians, Meryans, Mordvinians etc..

These all are Finnic people of NE Europe. These guys are chronologically from Gulf of Finland to Volga river. None of these warlike people are Slavs. Slavs are mentioned separate by Jordanes, as race of cowards living at the swamps.

Many of these people are mentioned at the Russian chronicles as founders of the Russian state. Like Vepsians and the Chud'. Geez.

Jarl
01-06-2010, 09:45 AM
But I should like to know if there is found some R1a1a7 west of the Oder, for example
in West-Germany or France?

West of Oder - yes. West of Rhine - no. Apparently, R1a1a7 seems to be almost exclusively associated with Slavs and Slavic expansions. In Scandinavia and Britain older clades are present but no or little R1a1a7.


Just have a look:

http://chrobacja.svasti.org/R1a1a7.gif


It seems largely absent from Northern and Western Germany. Its to be present in East Germany, Bohemia and some regions of South Germany.


How low can you guys go ? Really ? NE Europe was part of Hermanarics Goth Empire hundreds of years prior a single Slav put his foot there.

Lets see what Jordanes said:

Hermanaric fought and conguered warlike northerners as:
Thiudos Inaunxis Vasinabroncas Merens Mordens Imniscaris ..

This is People of Aunus, Vepsians, Meryans, Mordvinians etc..

These all are Finnic people of NE Europe. These guys are chronologically from Gulf of Finland to Volga river. None of these warlike people are Slavs. Slavs are mentioned separate by Jordanes, as race of cowards living at the swamps.

Many of these people are mentioned at the Russian chronicles as founders of the Russian state. Like Vepsians and the Chud'. Geez.

First of all Jordanes also mentions that one Gothic king conquered Egypt, another made a war on Athenes, and another made an alliance with Alexander the Great.... so I would be very careful when reading his excerpts about some dubious "Gothic Empire".

The truth is that Gothic influence extended little far beyond the Black Sea steppes, and did not even encompass the whole phenomenon which we now call the "Chernyakov Culture". Jordanes says:

"XXIII (116) Soon Geberich, king of the Goths, departed from human affairs and Hermanaric, noblest of the Amali, succeeded to the throne. He subdued many warlike peoples of the north and made them obey his laws, and some of our ancestors have justly compared him to Alexander the Great. Among the tribes he conquered were the Golthescytha, Thiudos, Inaunxis, Vasinabroncae, Merens, Mordens, Imniscaris, Rogas, Tadzans, Athaul, Navego, Bubegenae and Coldae."

And it is almost certain that Gothic influence, not to mention some military presence, never extended as far as Estonia and the Chudes. Jordanes was a Gothic historian at the court of a Gothic king, Gunthigisa, writing a "Gothic history" for his monarch. He lists all known obscure tribes of Sarmatia as vassals of the Goths - Slavs, Balts (Aesti), Iranians (Golthescytha) and Finns alike.

Jarl
01-06-2010, 09:56 AM
None of these warlike people are Slavs. Slavs are mentioned separate by Jordanes, as race of cowards living at the swamps.

This is what he wrote on Slavs:

"Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart.

(...)

These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venethi, Antes and Sclaveni. Though they now rage in war far and wide, in punishment for our sins, yet at that time they were all obedient to Hermanaric's commands. (120) This ruler also subdued by his wisdom and might the race of the Aesti, who dwell on the farthest shore of the German Ocean, and ruled all the nations of Scythia and Germany by his own prowess alone.

(...)

But disliking to remain under the rule of the Huns, he withdrew a little from them and strove to show his courage by moving his forces against the country of the Antes. When he attacked them, he was beaten in the first encounter. Thereafter he did valiantly and, as a terrible example, crucified their king, named Boz, together with his sons and seventy nobles, and left their bodies hanging there to double the fear of those who had surrendered. (248) "
"


Now, that does not sound like a description of cowards...

Monolith
01-06-2010, 10:30 AM
Just have a look:

http://chrobacja.svasti.org/R1a1a7.gif

Thanks for the link. ;) I was unaware that there still exist people who care about the old identity of Lesser Poland. Or is it only a wishful thinking of some neo-pagans (as observed on that web site), who are opposed to all things Christian?

Jarl
01-06-2010, 10:38 AM
Thanks for the link. ;) I was unaware that there still exist people who care about the old identity of Lesser Poland. Or is it only a wishful thinking of some neo-pagans (as observed on that web site), who are opposed to all things Christian?

It seems you are correct. Here is a good article and cranial study on Croats:

http://www.cmj.hr/2004/45/4/15311416.pdf

http://i46.tinypic.com/2mcx0sk.png

Yellow underlining - Czech

Red underlining - Polish

Blue underlining - Slovakia

Pink/Violet - Austria/Slovenia


Nin - Croatian capital falls almost ideally into the same spot as Polish - Lechitic Cedynia series.


Quote:


The positions of the analyzed Croatian sites in relation to the observed clusters were as follows. Sites from the east Adriatic coast: Nin, Bribir, Mravinci, and Danilo were located in the lower right part of the plot in the cluster of Polish sites. Nin, the most important early medieval Croatian site, occupied almost the same position as Cedynia, an early medieval site from northern Poland.

Monolith
01-06-2010, 03:16 PM
Nin - Croatian capital falls almost ideally into the same spot as Polish - Lechitic Cedynia series.

The contemporary populations in question are not as close as their medieval counterparts used to be, due to a number of factors. One of such is definitely the indigenous paleobalkanic admixture, which seems to be a defining factor in the ethnogenesis here (mainly in the south), though I suspect the original Slavic phenotypes were not as successful in their new environment, as the Dinaric ones were, which resulted in a lower survival rate of the original ethnic Slavs. However, the latter is only an assumption of mine.

Agrippa
01-06-2010, 03:28 PM
The contemporary populations in question are not as close as their medieval counterparts used to be, due to a number of factors. One of such is definitely the indigenous paleobalkanic admixture, which seems to be a defining factor in the ethnogenesis here (mainly in the south), though I suspect the original Slavic phenotypes were not as successful in their new environment, as the Dinaric ones were, which resulted in a lower survival rate of the original ethnic Slavs. However, the latter is only an assumption of mine.

No, its a fact. If looking at the bigger picture, the mountainous people of South Eastern Europe, the herders in particular one might add, were subjected to the long term trend of Dinarisation.

Everytime Leptodolichomorphic variants (Nordoid - Mediterranid) entered the region, they just changed the picture for a certain time, but soon afterwards, they were subjected to the same process of Dinarisation again. So the Slavs were not the first people which changed that way.

They just stopped the trend for a time, but soon afterwards they mixed with locals, the respective genes entered their genpool and the selective pressures resulted, even though the Germanic and Slavic influences were still present, in an even faster and more extreme Dinarisation, which produced the modern Dinarid type didnt exist in this typical form over such wide areas before.

This has been proven by the studies of Zivko Mikic:

Abstract
This essay is about the development of human populations in the central Balkans by tracing the brachycephalisation process during the Iron Age. One should emphasize that the oldest brachycephalic skulls were found in the osteological material from the Iron Gates. The brachycephalisation process was disrupted by the infiltration of other populations during the Roman and Migration period. However, while the full extent of the process became apparent in the late Middle Ages, the process itself has not stopped during the last two millennia and the outcome is the emergence of the Dinaric anthropological type as a substrate of the modern population of the region.

http://www.vml.de/d/inhalt.php?ISBN=3-89646-616-X

Dinarisation is a selective process which can work on different populations, similar to Alpinisation, and being typical for the forested mountains and in particular herder populations of that areas in Europe. Coloration is of secondary importance.

In Austria and Romania f.e. the correlation of altitude + herder = Dinaroid is quite obvious.

The habitat of the chamois shows a strong correlation to the Dinarisation areas:
http://www.watzmanngams.de/html/oekologie_der_gemse/verbreitung.jpg