Whose genetic influence was stronger in Sicily: Phoenicians or Normans?

[Sikeliot]

Northern European ancestry very rarely exceeds 15% even in Palermo.
Southwest Asian is around the same percentage, slightly higher.
West Asian is often close to 25%.

Which had more genetic influence; Phoenicians or Normans?

Arguments on each side..

Normans:
- Normans were more recent settlers, so it is likely that their genes had less time to diffuse and dilute, whereas Phoenician settlement was 3000 years ago.
- Phoenicians were always at odds with the Greeks, and the Phoenician settlements were eventually Hellenized and settled by Greeks.
- The Romans recorded that all Phoenicians and Carthaginians were expelled from Sicily.
- Some people from Palermo have shown to have elevated levels of Northern European influence.


Phoenicians:
- SW Asian genes are just as high as Northern European amongst the average Sicilian.
- Norman settlers were ruling elites and consisted mostly of men, and the population of the island was large enough when they settled they could have been easily absorbed; Phoenicians settled when the island was comparably quite underpopulated.
- Northern European genes are so low, amongst the lowest in Europe, that if the Norman influence had any appreciable impact, we are to believe that Sicilians had almost no Northern European influence prior to their arrival. For a European population, this is a very strong assumption to make.
- On the other hand, the SW Asian is the highest in Europe apart from Cyprus, which is high for European standards.. thus it is more reasonable to believe that before the Phoenicians, the amount was significantly less.

[Tooting Carmen]

Both about the same.

[Sikeliot]

Both about the same.

How much for each?

If we believe most of the "North Euro" in Sicily is Norman, then they'd have had Cypriot-like levels of the component prior to the Norman settlement.

[Tooting Carmen]

How much for each?

If we believe most of the "North Euro" in Sicily is Norman, then they'd have had Cypriot-like levels of the component prior to the Norman settlement.

10-15% maybe?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Nobody knows for sure what genetics were for phoenicians, so far as I know.

[Sikeliot]

Nobody knows for sure what genetics were for phoenicians, so far as I know.

Probably close to Cypriots.

I suspect that up until the Normans, all of the populations that had taken over Sicily were more or less genetically close, which is why it's hard to quantify their influence.

[Tooting Carmen]

Probably close to Cypriots.

I suspect that up until the Normans, all of the populations that had taken over Sicily were more or less genetically close, which is why it's hard to quantify their influence.

Quite

[Sikeliot]

Other opinions?

I think one way to figure out the extent of Norman influence is testing someone from an area where Normans were very few, and then testing someone from Palermo where they were numerous. The difference seems to be 5% or so of North Euro.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Phoenicians they had more contact with Sicily than Normans.

Most North-European in Sicilians is probably Indo-European.

[Sikeliot]

Most North-European in Sicilians is probably Indo-European.

I think that the North Euro in Sicilians in general is, but I think areas with Norman influence do have a couple extra percentages of these components.

Most Norman would come in under Dodecad's "East Euro" and "West Euro" in Sicilians, and from Dodecad K=12, these are the results of someone from Messina (little/no Norman influence) versus Palermo (noticeable Norman influence).


Messina (isolated area, little change since ancient times)
East Euro: 3.2
West Euro: 8.7
Mediterranean: 49.6
West Asian: 25.7
SW Asian: 7.8
NW African: 2
East African: 1.5


Palermo (heavier Norman and MENA influences, demographic changes since ancient times):
East Euro: 3.3
West Euro: 13.2
Mediterranean: 46.1
West Asian: 24.4
SW Asian: 8.4
NW African: 3.9


The second person has around 5% more "Western European" than does the first, which might be the Norman influence. They also have more NW African and SW Asian which makes sense due to higher Phoenician and Moorish settlements in that area, but the rest is more or less the same.

The first person on the other hand comes from an area that has likely remained highly unchanged since ancient times, so the difference between the two reflects any demographic changes that happened since ancient times.

[Rambo07]

Phoenicians are typically associated with J2.
The subclade of J2 typically associated with Phoenicians, occurs at 33% in Sicily.

I think that also explains why so many Sicilians look Levantine also lol.

[Ulla]

Probably close to Cypriots.

I suspect that up until the Normans, all of the populations that had taken over Sicily were more or less genetically close, which is why it's hard to quantify their influence.

Probably close to Cypriots means nothing.

[Ulla]

Phoenicians are typically associated with J2.
The subclade of J2 typically associated with Phoenicians, occurs at 33% in Sicily.

I think that also explains why so many Sicilians look Levantine also lol.

There are many J2 subclades, not all could be associated with Phoenicians.
Ancient Greeks were J2 also.

[Sikeliot]

If Norman influence were stronger than Phoenician I'd assume Sicilians would plot further north than they do now, no?

[Styrian Mujo]

Slaves had the greatest impact along with Italics and the bigger towns back in the Roman period would be multi-ethnic filled with non-Slave immigrants from all parts of the empire (mostly north Africa and west Asia).

[Ulla]

If Norman influence were stronger than Phoenician I'd assume Sicilians would plot further north than they do now, no?

I see that You have much difficulty to understand a Mediterranean country. Besides, you've never lived outside USA.

Before Normans arrival Sicily was a muslim state and and Byzantine one. Normans brought back Sicily to the West civilization, with forced latinization and Lombard pogroms included. Yeah. In Sicily Norman legacy is much more important than all the peoples who preceded them. It is not a matter of dna and eyes or hair color. Without Norman conquest Sicilians would plot much more further South. Even if later Spaniards have made ​​all possible attempts to destroy Sicily.

[Sikeliot]

I see that You have much difficulty to understand a Mediterranean country. Besides, you've never lived outside USA.

Before Normans arrival Sicily was a muslim state and and Byzantine one. Normans brought back Sicily to the West civilization, with forced latinization and Lombard pogroms included. Yeah. In Sicily Norman legacy is much more important than all the peoples who preceded them. It is not a matter of dna and eyes or hair color. Without Norman conquest Sicilians would plot much more further South. Even if later Spaniards have made ​​all possible attempts to destroy Sicily.

Without Normans, Sicily would have become like Egypt, eventually undergone the Arab Slave Trade, and they'd look like Dominicans and Puerto Ricans today more or less.

But neither Normans, nor Arabs, have had much genetic impact. Sicily has one of the lowest genetic influences from North Europe in all of Europe.

[Comte Arnau]

If Norman influence were stronger than Phoenician I'd assume Sicilians would plot further north than they do now, no?

They don't plot near the Catalans either and thousands of us established there for over three centuries.

[Sikeliot]

They don't plot near the Catalans either and thousands of us established there for over three centuries.

What happened to them? Assimilated or left?

[Comte Arnau]

What happened to them? Assimilated or left?

I know there's a book, Els catalans a Sicília, a collection of several studies by both Catalan and Italian historians, but I haven't read it yet. I guess, though, that after the plagues and the earthquakes, many would leave and those who remained would easily assimilate. Yet there seem to be quite a few traces of our presence apparently, even after so many years.

[Ulla]

Without Normans, Sicily would have become like Egypt, eventually undergone the Arab Slave Trade, and they'd look like Dominicans and Puerto Ricans today more or less.

But neither Normans, nor Arabs, have had much genetic impact. Sicily has one of the lowest genetic influences from North Europe in all of Europe.

I didn't speak about genes, you know. I was talking about something more important than a pair of blue eyes and blond hair.

Genes are overrated, dear Sikeliot. And you seem to be a self-hating Sicilian.

But I see, you live in a country still dominated by WASP. It should not be easy to live with Big Jims and the Barbies. But their luck started with the barbarian invasions will end. The world is changing, the abilities of the Kurgan warriors are running out, and the wheel turns. :)

[Ulla]

I know there's a book, Els catalans a Sicília, a collection of several studies by both Catalan and Italian historians, but I haven't read it yet. I guess, though, that after the plagues and the earthquakes, many would leave and those who remained would easily assimilate. Yet there seem to be quite a few traces of our presence apparently, even after so many years.

Catalans were assimilated and replaced by Castilians from XVI century.

[Comte Arnau]

Catalans were assimilated and replaced by Castilians from XVI century.

Don't know what you mean by 'replaced'. I wasn't talking about soldiers, but about fishers, traders, artists, workers of all types.

[Gaston]

Nobody knows who were the phoenicians. If they were Levantines, they would not be close to Cypriots but to Christian Lebanese (not Euro-influenced, unlike Cypriots and Lebanese muslims). Besides, most of Sicily's phoenician history wasn't phoenician per se but Carthaginian.




Genes are overrated, dear Sikeliot. And you seem to be a self-hating Sicilian.


He's not Sicilian.

[Ulla]

Don't know what you mean by 'replaced'. I wasn't talking about soldiers, but about fishers, traders, artists, workers of all types.

When Ferdinand II of Aragon died on 1516 (he was King of Sicily), the crown of Sicily was taken by his daughter Joanna of Castile (Juana la Loca).

[Ulla]

Nobody knows who were the phoenicians. If they were Levantines, they would not be close to Cypriots but to Christian Lebanese (not Euro-influenced, unlike Cypriots and Lebanese muslims). Besides, most of Sicily's phoenician history wasn't phoenician per se but Carthaginian.


He's not Sicilian.

I realized he was a Siceliota-Italiota.

[Teyrn]

Phoenicians typically constructed trade enclaves not outright colonies- they were traders not conquerors or colonizers. Not sure about the Normans, they were always a minority ruling over a larger population such as was the case in England, but in the end I chose neither.

[Sikeliot]

I realized he was a Siceliota-Italiota.

I am half Sicilian, and then the rest Polish, Portuguese, and Cape Verdean.

[Sikeliot]

Don't know what you mean by 'replaced'. I wasn't talking about soldiers, but about fishers, traders, artists, workers of all types.

Norman ancestry can still be detected in Sicily, but not anything Spanish, so I am unsure what happened to them.

[Ulla]

I am half Sicilian, and then the rest Polish, Portuguese, and Cape Verdean.

R1a1a comes from the Polish side, Sicilian, Portuguese or Cape Verdean?

[Sikeliot]

R1a1a comes from the Polish side, Sicilian, Portuguese or Cape Verdean?

Sicilian.
Could either be Norman, or Greek.

I don't deny Norman influences, I just know that their cultural legacy is far greater than the (very small) genetic one. Without their influence though, we'd all be mixed and looking like mixed North Africans and Caribbean Hispanics.

[Ulla]

Sicilian.
Could either be Norman, or Greek.

I don't deny Norman influences, I just know that their cultural legacy is far greater than the (very small) genetic one. Without their influence though, we'd all be mixed and looking like mixed North Africans and Caribbean Hispanics.

Have many times have you been in Sicily?

R1a1a could be of Longobard origin also. Normans repopulated Sicily with Lombard-Galloitalic (Northern Italians, in some cases of Longobard origin too) and with Langobardi/Longobards from South Italy (Longobards settled around VIII century AD in Salerno and Benevento area).

[Gaston]

Sicilian.
Could either be Norman, or Greek.

I don't deny Norman influences, I just know that their cultural legacy is far greater than the (very small) genetic one. Without their influence though, we'd all be mixed and looking like mixed North Africans and Caribbean Hispanics.

You have very autistic views about how people in the Middle East and North Africa look like. Parts of Iberia were muslim lands for much longer than Sicily and Iberia doesn't look like the Dominican Republic as far as I know.

[Ulla]

You have very autistic views about how people in the Middle East and North Africa look like. Parts of Iberia were muslim lands for much longer than Sicily and Iberia doesn't look like the Dominican Republic as far as I know.

He has watched too much Sopranos.

[Comte Arnau]

Norman ancestry can still be detected in Sicily, but not anything Spanish, so I am unsure what happened to them.

I don't know about the Spanish, as I'm much more interested in the Catalan cultural heritage. And I'm not as interested as you in genes and types, all I know is how important the Catalan presence was in Sicily between the Sicilian Vespers and the coming into power of Charles V, which means more than two centuries that can still be traced today in dozens of Catalan words in the Sicilian language as well as the Catalan Gothic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Gothic) style being everywhere in palaces, cathedrals and noble houses all over the island, in the Enna province, in Taormina, in Syracuse, in Catania, etc.

What would definitely be interesting is to see how many Sicilian family surnames can be traced back to the Aragonese period, even if it's more than six centuries since then. A quick search reveals, for instance, that the surname Catalano is more common in Sicily than everywhere else in Italy.

[Sikeliot]

You have very autistic views about how people in the Middle East and North Africa look like. Parts of Iberia were muslim lands for much longer than Sicily and Iberia doesn't look like the Dominican Republic as far as I know.

Because they never repopulated it. But if they had not been expelled I bet they'd have brought SSA slaves like they did to North Africa.

[Sikeliot]

What would definitely be interesting is to see how many Sicilian family surnames can be traced back to the Aragonese period, even if it's more than six centuries since then. A quick search reveals, for instance, that the surname Catalano is more common in Sicily than everywhere else in Italy.

If every "Catalano" is of Catalan descent, is every person named 'Greco' Greek? Or every 'Lombardo' Lombard? Since all Sicilians are genetically very similar, I highly doubt it.

[Comte Arnau]

If every "Catalano" is of Catalan descent, is every person named 'Greco' Greek? Or every 'Lombardo' Lombard? Since all Sicilians are genetically very similar, I highly doubt it.

Lol, obviously not. Alemany (German) is a common surname here, for instance. :laugh:

But the fact that it's much more common in Sicily than in some other places may reveal a more important original source, that's what I meant. Why is Greco, now you mention it, much more common in Sicily, Puglia and Calabria? Unless there is an obvious bottleneck effect, it's clear that the original focus had to be important.

[Sikeliot]

Lol, obviously not. Alemany (German) is a common surname here, for instance. :laugh:

But the fact that it's much more common in Sicily than in some other places may reveal a more important original source, that's what I meant. Why is Greco, now you mention it, much more common in Sicily, Puglia and Calabria? Unless there is an obvious bottleneck effect, it's clear that the original focus had to be important.

It's possible. I just am saying that genetic analysis thus far has not corroborated the idea.

[Ulla]

If every "Catalano" is of Catalan descent, is every person named 'Greco' Greek? Or every 'Lombardo' Lombard? Since all Sicilians are genetically very similar, I highly doubt it.

That Sicilians are genetically very similar is your personal opinion.

What studies are you doing?

[Ulla]

Lol, obviously not. Alemany (German) is a common surname here, for instance. :laugh:

But the fact that it's much more common in Sicily than in some other places may reveal a more important original source, that's what I meant. Why is Greco, now you mention it, much more common in Sicily, Puglia and Calabria? Unless there is an obvious bottleneck effect, it's clear that the original focus had to be important.

Surname Greco is not comparable to other surnames, due to the fact that many people in southern Italy were simply grecized, they were not ethnic Greek. While we can not say the same with Catalans, Lombards and others.

[Sikeliot]

Surname Greco is not comparable to other surnames, due to the fact that many people in southern Italy were simply grecized, they were not ethnic Greek. While we can not say the same with Catalans, Lombards and others.

Well, genetically they are much closer to Greeks, while very far away from Catalans, so that should tell you something. In fact, most Greeks are genetically slightly more "northern" than southern Italians due to more recent Balkan mixture, but still.. Catalans are genetically far away.

I don't honestly care who was said to have settled where, I care what I see in DNA studies and tests now, and on 23andme I share with many, I have seen their results on Eurogenes etc.

[Ulla]

Well, genetically they are much closer to Greeks, while very far away from Catalans, so that should tell you something. In fact, most Greeks are genetically slightly more "northern" than southern Italians due to more recent Balkan mixture, but still.. Catalans are genetically far away.

I don't honestly care who was said to have settled where, I care what I see in DNA studies and tests now, and on 23andme I share with many, I have seen their results on Eurogenes etc.


I highly doubt that you have the knowledge to read a genetic study.

[Sikeliot]

I highly doubt that you have the knowledge to read a genetic study.


There isn't a single PCA plot where Sicilians (or any southern Italians) plot near Catalans.
But there are many where they are similar to some groups of Greeks.

Deny it all you want, try to make yourself more "western" European, but the genetics are what they are. I won't deny Lombard influence, since some southern Italians are slightly more "northern", but I'd bet that Spaniards left not a dent in the genetic pool.

[Ulla]

Sikeliot, I'm Northern-Italian (Piedmont) and half French. I deal with the spread of the Gallo-Romance language, because I am a student of linguistics and anthropology, while it is obvious that you take care of this matter because you have a personal identity problem. You can't deny it. As most Americans you are the result of a crossbreeding and of a cultural assimilation. I continue to speak the language of my ancestors, you do not. You must prove something, I do not.

[Sikeliot]

I already said there is Lombard influence in Sicily. I was denying the Spanish influence, if you didn't know it was there except for a few surnames or buildings you'd never guess it.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

I think about even But maybe Pheonician a little more.

[Comte Arnau]

There isn't a single PCA plot where Sicilians (or any southern Italians) plot near Catalans.
But there are many where they are similar to some groups of Greeks.

This just shows how cultural heritage can remain somehow while genetic presence gets wiped out. I'd say Sardinia doesn't plot near either, and the Catalan influence on that island was even bigger.

However, we did wipe out Moors from Majorca, for instance.

[Sikeliot]

This just shows how cultural heritage can remain somehow while genetic presence gets wiped out. I'd say Sardinia doesn't plot near either, and the Catalan influence on that island was even bigger.

However, we did wipe out Moors from Majorca, for instance.

Sardinians do plot closer to Iberia than Sicily does, but I don't know whether it's always been that way or if it's due to Iberian influence.

[Comte Arnau]

Sardinians do plot closer to Iberia than Sicily does, but I don't know whether it's always been that way or if it's due to Iberian influence.

Is there any clear graphic where to see Sardinians and different Iberian groups?

There's the theory that Paleo-Sardinian was related to pre-Roman languages of Iberia, so there could be links older than the Medieval influence.

[Sikeliot]

Is there any clear graphic where to see Sardinians and different Iberian groups?

There's the theory that Paleo-Sardinian was related to pre-Roman languages of Iberia, so there could be links older than the Medieval influence.

I will try to find something. I know Dodecad Oracle had Iberians as their top matches but at a distance.