Kosovo vs Crimea - 'Good Independence' vs 'Bad Referendum'

[RussiaPrussia]

http://rt.com/news/kosovo-crimea-referendum-recognition-441/
Published time: March 21, 2014 20:45
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http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/23/ff/10/00/kosovo-crimea-referendum-recognition.si.jpg
(L) Thousands of people celebrate with Kosovo and Albanian flags in Pristina on February 17, 2009. (R) Sevastopol residents at a celebratory show held after the referendum on Crimea's status. (AFP Photo/RIA Novosti)

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Breakaway regions ('http://rt.com/tags/breakaway-regions/'), Crimea ('http://rt.com/tags/crimea/'), Kosovo ('http://rt.com/tags/kosovo/'), Law ('http://rt.com/tags/law/'),Russia ('http://rt.com/tags/russia/'), Ukraine ('http://rt.com/tags/ukraine/')
The West has so far refused to legitimize Crimea’s decision to secede from Ukraine. Yet Kosovo, which was a part of Serbia, also broke away from its parent country, but has been recognized by the US and most of the EU.

But what makes one breakaway more justifiable than another, in the eyes of the world community?

http://rt.com/files/news/23/ff/10/00/kosovo_crimea.gif

[The.Mask]

Ukrainains are brothers with Russians, i don't understand why you make war with them. Two different states = same people.

Kosovo - Albania two different states = same people. Like you all can think, US never gave Kosovo to the republic of Albania, actually we all wished/wish but that's not the case.

[justme]

You also forgot to mention the "ethnic cleansing" that Serbia did to Kosovo Albanians to justify their independence.

[Novi Pazar]

^ethnic cleansing?

[Methmatician]

How can Russia expect others to recognise the referendum when they don't even recognise Kosovo? So using Kosovo as an argument is pointless because Russia doesn't recognise Kosovo.

[Apis]

How can Russia expect other's to recognise the referendum when they don't even recognise Kosovo? So using Kosovo as an argument is pointless because Russia doesn't recognise Kosovo.

I don't think they do. They're just using this entire affair as a means to display the West's hypocrisy when it comes to world politics. They're in effective control of Crimea, so international recognition is only a formality, which is also the case with Kosovo. On a related note, does anyone know if having a territorial dispute prevents you from entering the EU?

[Methmatician]

I don't think they do. They're just using this entire affair as a means to display the West's hypocrisy when it comes to world politics. They're in effective control of Crimea, so international recognition is only a formality, which is also the case with Kosovo.
You could also use Crimea as an example of Russia hypocrisy in world politics. They complained about the West stealing Kosovo from Serbia, now Russian soldiers are taking over a Ukrainian air force base in disputed territory (Crimea).

On a related note, does anyone know if having a territorial dispute prevents you from entering the EU?
I think it would. Serbia can't join until it recognises Kosovo.

[Sisak]

it is bad referendum

[wvwvw]

Ukrainains are brothers with Russians, i don't understand why you make war with them. Two different states = same people.

Kosovo - Albania two different states = same people. Like you all can think, US never gave Kosovo to the republic of Albania, actually we all wished/wish but that's not the case.
Putin put it nicely:

“NATO remains a military alliance, and we are against having a military alliance making itself at home right in our own backyard; in our historic territory. I simply cannot imagine that we would travel to Sevastopol to visit NATO sailors. Of course, most of them are wonderful guys, but it would be better to have them come and visit us, be our guests, rather than the other way round.”

[Krampus]

^ethnic cleansing?

Oh did you not know about what Serbs did to Albanians?

[mint]

Its not to be compared :picard1:


As Nadir Bekirov, head of the political-legal department of Mejlis argued: "Russian and pro-Russian Crimean politicians declare that some mythical "Crimean nation" exists ... which is supposedly a subject for self-determination in Crimea.

http://www.iccrimea.org/scholarly/oshevel.html

[alb0zfinest]

Edit: despot said what i wanted to say.

Damn you despot :D

[Apis]

You could also use Crimea as an example of Russia hypocrisy in world politics. They complained about the West stealing Kosovo from Serbia, now Russian soldiers are taking over a Ukrainian air force base in disputed territory (Crimea).


Obviously, but these complaints were ignored rendering the self-determination principle valid to be used by anyone. This would then apply to the Russian majority wanting to break away from Ukraine. The difference is that Russia is now saying that Crimea is legal because Kosovo was, whereas the US is simultaneously defending Kosovo whilst criticising Crimea, which is the pivotal difference in hypocrisy.



I think it would. Serbia can't join until it recognises Kosovo.

This is exactly why I had to ask. The EU is very specific about not accepting a member with an existing conflict, yet Serbia has 'fulfilled all conditions' after normalising relations with Kosovo.

[Methmatician]

Obviously, but these complaints were ignored rendering the self-determination principle valid to be used by anyone. This would then apply to the Russian majority wanting to break away from Ukraine. The difference is that Russia is now saying that Crimea is legal because Kosovo was, whereas the US is simultaneously defending Kosovo whilst criticising Crimea, which is the pivotal difference in hypocrisy.
There's no difference. Russia doesn't recognise Kosovo's independence nor the legality of it so how can they use it as an example? America defending one referendum against another. Russia is defending one referendum against another. Same hypocrisy but from different sides.

[Apis]

There's no difference. Russia doesn't recognise Kosovo's independence nor the legality of it so how can they use it as an example? America defending one referendum against another. Russia is defending one referendum against another. Same hypocrisy but from different sides.

I agree that both are being hypocritical around the same point, but it's not at an equal level of hypocrisy (if that makes any sense). If you consider the position of the West, you'll see that they support Kosovo but attack Crimea at the same time, simply because one is a strategic disadvantage compared to the other. Russia is doing the same, but at this point has 'accepted' Kosovo's independence without actually doing so. It may not have officially recognised it, but neither have dozens of other countries who still support Kosovo's independence without having recognised it. Just because Russia spoke against Kosovo in the past, doesn't mean they're taking the same political stance today. Russia's recognition of Kosovo is implied by it using it as a excuse for Crimea's independence. It's a confusing concept I'm trying to bring across, but do you see what I'm trying to say?

[Yaroslav]

Ukrainains are brothers with Russians, i don't understand why you make war with them. Two different states = same people.


This is not a Russian-Ukrainian war, it has a lot more to it than that and you know it.

[Methmatician]

I agree that both are being hypocritical around the same point, but it's not at an equal level of hypocrisy (if that makes any sense). If you consider the position of the West, you'll see that they support Kosovo but attack Crimea at the same time, simply because one is a strategic disadvantage compared to the other. Russia is doing the same, but at this point has 'accepted' Kosovo's independence without actually doing so. It may not have officially recognised it, but neither have dozens of other countries who still support Kosovo's independence without having recognised it.
Russia has not recognised Kosovo's independence. They're just using it as an attack on the US. Russia and the Soviet Union has a history of pointing out American hypocrisies while ignoring their own. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes) Russia is saying "Why do you contest the Crimean referendum but support Kosovo's?". Likewise the American can say "Why are you contesting the Kosovo referendum but support Crimea's?". I don't know if you watch Russian media but it's plagued with 'exposing' Western hypocrisies with some exaggeration and false statements thrown in. At least in the West people are aware that the media is biased and can't always be trusted. Unfortunately from here it looks like almost everyone in Russia gobbles up whatever they're told.


Just because Russia spoke against Kosovo in the past, doesn't mean they're taking the same political stance today. Russia's recognition of Kosovo is implied by it using it as a excuse for Crimea's independence. It's a confusing concept I'm trying to bring across, but do you see what I'm trying to say?
Yes, I know what you're saying. But you could also say that by talking about the Kosovo government, you are unofficially recognising the government, like Russia did before. I guess what you're trying to say is that by completing ignoring the existence of Kosovo, the people living in it, the politicians running it and the recent history of it is the only way to not recognise Kosovo's independence.

[Apis]

Russia has not recognised Kosovo's independence. They're just using it as an attack on the US. Russia and the Soviet Union has a history of pointing out American hypocrisies while ignoring their own. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes) Russia is saying "Why do you contest the Crimean referendum but support Kosovo's?". Likewise the American can say "Why are you contesting the Kosovo referendum but support Crimea's?". I don't know if you watch Russian media but it's plagued with 'exposing' Western hypocrisies with some exaggeration and false statements thrown in. At least in the West people are aware that the media is biased and can't always be trusted. Unfortunately from here it looks like almost everyone in Russia gobbles up whatever they're told.

Yes, I know what you're saying. But you could also say that by talking about the Kosovo government, you are unofficially recognising the government, like Russia did before. I guess what you're trying to say is that by completing ignoring the existence of Kosovo, the people living in it, the politicians running it and the recent history of it is the only way to not recognise Kosovo's independence.

I perfectly well understand the two sides are identical. This entire crisis started because Russia felt it had something to prove. Its geopolitical interests were clearly undermined and they felt they had to show superiority. The annexation of Crimea isn't something that Russia had been planning "all along"; they wouldn't have spent billions on the Olympics to improve their world view if they were planning to ruin it in the immediate future. They annexed the region to show 'the world' that Russia is powerful enough to do what it wants without any major repercussions. Similarly, they used the Kosovo excuse with Crimea to force the US to show clear hypocrisy, even if Russia turns out to be a hypocrite as well. In terms of strategy, this whole affair has been a brilliant move on Putin's behalf. It's forced the Western world to realise that Russia and the US are not so different, despite the vastly popular Cold-war view of Russia. In addition, and I'm still not sure if it's the case, this move might also prevent Ukraine from joining the EU since they now have a territorial dispute.

I've gone a bit off-topic, but in my original post, I was just trying to say that the technicalities of the Crimea situation are irrelevant in terms of what Russia was actually trying to achieve.

[justme]

First kosovo was never Serbian...
http://article.archive.nytimes.com/1912/12/31/100385991.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJBTN455PTTBQQNRQ&Expires=1395559427&Signature=dkh4NDRh6AsEfyQGDyrUxy4iu5c%3D

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=kosovar_self-determination_tmln_17

It was given to Serbia as a gift and when that happened mass killings of Albanians were taking place. When Kosovo was given to Serbia Albanians were ignored russia never mentioned Albanians rights even though they were the majority.
Russia is stupid to use Kosovo as an example when Kosovo Albanians suffered brutality under Serbs.
Russia is doing what it did to Kosovo in 1912, except in Kosovo it was brutal with mass killings of innocent people, they like to say they were removing Turks... They were actually ethnically cleansing Albanians.

[Sisak]

First kosovo was never Serbian...
http://article.archive.nytimes.com/1912/12/31/100385991.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJBTN455PTTBQQNRQ&Expires=1395559427&Signature=dkh4NDRh6AsEfyQGDyrUxy4iu5c%3D

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=kosovar_self-determination_tmln_17

It was given to Serbia as a gift and when that happened mass killings of Albanians were taking place. When Kosovo was given to Serbia Albanians were ignored russia never mentioned Albanians rights even though they were the majority.
Russia is stupid to use Kosovo as an example when Kosovo Albanians suffered brutality under Serbs.
Russia is doing what it did to Kosovo in 1912, except in Kosovo it was brutal with mass killings of innocent people, they like to say they were removing Turks... They were actually ethnically cleansing Albanians.


but what normal county gives part of its territory to another country?

[Novi Pazar]

First kosovo was never Serbian...
http://article.archive.nytimes.com/1912/12/31/100385991.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJBTN455PTTBQQNRQ&Expires=1395559427&Signature=dkh4NDRh6AsEfyQGDyrUxy4iu5c%3D

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=kosovar_self-determination_tmln_17

It was given to Serbia as a gift and when that happened mass killings of Albanians were taking place. When Kosovo was given to Serbia Albanians were ignored russia never mentioned Albanians rights even though they were the majority.
Russia is stupid to use Kosovo as an example when Kosovo Albanians suffered brutality under Serbs.
Russia is doing what it did to Kosovo in 1912, except in Kosovo it was brutal with mass killings of innocent people, they like to say they were removing Turks... They were actually ethnically cleansing Albanians.

Albania was never Shqiptarian to begin with! Anyway, you need to teach yourself, don't listen to mummy and daddy at the dinner table, time to learn:

NATO claimed that the government in Belgrade was oppressing the Kosovo Albanians. This was a lie. The Kosovo Albanians, in fact, were the best treated ethnic minority in the world -- bar none. What was true was that the Kosovo Albanians, who were a minority in Serbia, but a majority in Kosovo, and in control of all Kosovo institutions, including the government, the police, the educational system, etc., were persecuting the Kosovo Serbs, who were a minority in Kosovo. This piece documents that this was the assessment of the US army, no less, though this was never shared with the public after the NATO demonization of the Serbs began.

__________________________________________________ ________

Introduction

On March 24th 1999, NATO began bombing civilian Serbia because, it claimed, this was the only way to stop widespread ethnic cleansing against Albanians by the Yugoslav government.

Ordinary Westerners accepted this.

One cannot blame them, exactly. For years, the Western media had been alleging that nationalist unrest by separatist Albanians in Kosovo stemmed from the fact that they were supposedly a besieged minority, persecuted by an ultranationalist Serbian state. Given this media barrage, by the time NATO bombed Serbia, the Western public easily believed NATO's claims that this was necessary to prevent a genocide against Albanian civilians in Kosovo.

But suppose I told you that the following list summarizes the political facts in Kosovo in 1981, when the separatist activity by radical Albanians began in earnest:

(1) Kosovo Albanians controlled the provincial government;

(2) Kosovo Albanians controlled the cultural institutions;

(3) Albanian was the official language in the province (and in fact Serbs in Kosovo were forced to learn Albanian, not the other way around);

(4) Education was conducted in Albanian;

(5) Albanians were the overwhelming majority of students at Pristina University;

(6) Albanians were the overwhelming majority in the Kosovo police force;

(7) As The Economist reported in 1981, "Mr Fadil Hoxha [was] a member of Jugoslavia's collective state presidency and a Kosovo Albanian." What does this mean? The collective presidency of the Yugoslav federation was composed of representatives from its constituent republics, and also representatives from Kosovo and Vojvodina. However, Kosovo and Vojvodina were not republics of Yugoslavia but provinces of Serbia. Thus, Kosovo was treated as if it were a republic of Yugoslavia as far as the collective presidency of the federation was concerned.

(8) Since 1974, the Kosovo parliament in Pristina (Kosovo's capital) could veto decisions taken in Belgrade that corresponded to the entire Republic of Serbia (of which Kosovo is a province), but Belgrade had no say on matters that were decided in Pristina (!).

(9) Albanians were discriminating against Serbs in industry and in the political administration.

(10) Kosovo Serbs, apparently starting in the 1970s, were subjected to low-level terrorism and harassment by either the Albanian KLA or its precursors. This caused a trickle, then a flood of Kosovo Serbs to flee the province out of fear for their lives.

Is this the picture of an oppressed Albanian minority in Serbia? Or is this the picture of an oppressed Serbian minority in Kosovo?

Read here and learn some truthful facts about not what mum and dad talk at the dinner table but what your friends in Nena Amerikes know about, here:

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/kosovo.htm

[justme]

but what normal county gives part of its territory to another country?
Nope we didn't... It was Russian who helped Serbia snatch it...a territory that never belonged to Serbia.

[justme]

Albania was never Shqiptarian to begin with! Anyway, you need to teach yourself, don't listen to mummy and daddy at the dinner table, time to learn:

NATO claimed that the government in Belgrade was oppressing the Kosovo Albanians. This was a lie. The Kosovo Albanians, in fact, were the best treated ethnic minority in the world -- bar none. What was true was that the Kosovo Albanians, who were a minority in Serbia, but a majority in Kosovo, and in control of all Kosovo institutions, including the government, the police, the educational system, etc., were persecuting the Kosovo Serbs, who were a minority in Kosovo. This piece documents that this was the assessment of the US army, no less, though this was never shared with the public after the NATO demonization of the Serbs began.

__________________________________________________ ________

Introduction

On March 24th 1999, NATO began bombing civilian Serbia because, it claimed, this was the only way to stop widespread ethnic cleansing against Albanians by the Yugoslav government.

Ordinary Westerners accepted this.

One cannot blame them, exactly. For years, the Western media had been alleging that nationalist unrest by separatist Albanians in Kosovo stemmed from the fact that they were supposedly a besieged minority, persecuted by an ultranationalist Serbian state. Given this media barrage, by the time NATO bombed Serbia, the Western public easily believed NATO's claims that this was necessary to prevent a genocide against Albanian civilians in Kosovo.

But suppose I told you that the following list summarizes the political facts in Kosovo in 1981, when the separatist activity by radical Albanians began in earnest:

(1) Kosovo Albanians controlled the provincial government;

(2) Kosovo Albanians controlled the cultural institutions;

(3) Albanian was the official language in the province (and in fact Serbs in Kosovo were forced to learn Albanian, not the other way around);

(4) Education was conducted in Albanian;

(5) Albanians were the overwhelming majority of students at Pristina University;

(6) Albanians were the overwhelming majority in the Kosovo police force;

(7) As The Economist reported in 1981, "Mr Fadil Hoxha [was] a member of Jugoslavia's collective state presidency and a Kosovo Albanian." What does this mean? The collective presidency of the Yugoslav federation was composed of representatives from its constituent republics, and also representatives from Kosovo and Vojvodina. However, Kosovo and Vojvodina were not republics of Yugoslavia but provinces of Serbia. Thus, Kosovo was treated as if it were a republic of Yugoslavia as far as the collective presidency of the federation was concerned.

(8) Since 1974, the Kosovo parliament in Pristina (Kosovo's capital) could veto decisions taken in Belgrade that corresponded to the entire Republic of Serbia (of which Kosovo is a province), but Belgrade had no say on matters that were decided in Pristina (!).

(9) Albanians were discriminating against Serbs in industry and in the political administration.

(10) Kosovo Serbs, apparently starting in the 1970s, were subjected to low-level terrorism and harassment by either the Albanian KLA or its precursors. This caused a trickle, then a flood of Kosovo Serbs to flee the province out of fear for their lives.

Is this the picture of an oppressed Albanian minority in Serbia? Or is this the picture of an oppressed Serbian minority in Kosovo?

Read here and learn some truthful facts about not what mum and dad talk at the dinner table but what your friends in Nena Amerikes know about, here:

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/kosovo.htm

Nice propaganda.

[Novi Pazar]

^ A NENA AMERIKES source Shqiptarko! So it's not propaganda source!

[justme]

^ A NENA AMERIKES source Shqiptarko! So it's not propaganda source!
Shkija... You are the kings of making propaganda... America doesn't need to make propaganda they have evidence, secret agents, spies, photos, people traveling to those war torn countries to see the evidence ICJ ect ect.

[Sisak]

^ A NENA AMERIKES source Shqiptarko! So it's not propaganda source!

Kako ide ona uzrechica: tko se tuce, taj se voli.
In the end, you've lived together a long time.

[justme]

Kako ide ona uzrechica: tko se tuce, taj se voli.
In the end, you've lived together a long time.
I would hear Serbs in the UK say that Croatians never got killed in the Balkans 1990's war, it just shows what liars Serbs are.

[Sisak]

Serbs killed Croats, Tomislav Nikolic was charged that he personally killed an entire village Antin in Croatia.