R1a haplogroup may have originated in Iran

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/03/major-new-article-on-deep-origins-of-y.html



Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of M417/Page7 occurred ~5800 years ago. This suggests the possibility that R1a lineages accompanied demic expansions initiated during the Copper, Bronze, and Iron ages, partially replacing previous Y-chromosome strata, an interpretation consistent with albeit limited ancient DNA evidence.54, 60 However, our data do not enable us to directly ascribe the patterns of R1a geographic spread to specific prehistoric cultures or more recent demographic events. High-throughput sequencing studies of more R1a lineages will lead to further insight into the structure of the underlying tree, and ancient DNA specimens will help adjudicate the molecular clock calibration. Together these advancements will yield more refined inferences about pre-historic dispersals of peoples, their material cultures, and languages.

...

Among the 120 populations with sample sizes of at least 50 individuals and with at least 10% occurrence of R1a, just 6 met these criteria, and 5 of these 6 populations reside in modern-day Iran. Haplogroup diversities among the six populations ranged from 0.78 to 0.86 (Supplementary Table 4). Of the 24 R1a-M420*(xSRY10831.2) chromosomes in our data set, 18 were sampled in Iran and 3 were from eastern Turkey. Similarly, five of the six observed R1a1-SRY10831.2*(xM417/Page7) chromosomes were also from Iran, with the sixth occurring in a Kabardin individual from the Caucasus. Owing to the prevalence of basal lineages and the high levels of haplogroup diversities in the region, we find a compelling case for the Middle East, possibly near present-day Iran, as the geographic origin of hg R1a.



I am not surprised in some ways, but am surprised in others. R1a origin in Iran is not too shocking to me, they are basically scythians really. Some people might get butthurt at the obvious proof middle east is originally a super whitey zone, but what else is new.

The super young age seems crazy, though. I mean we already have r1a samples pretty far back, but whatever - these issues will be resolved in time with more sampling, I guess. I don't really buy into moleculat clock idea, but it could be that many y-dna mutations are NOT neutral and selection could lead to very rapid promulgation of them.

[blogen]

R1a haplogroup may have originated in Iran

Some people might get butthurt at the obvious proof middle east is originally a super whitey zone

What is the context between the two statements? :)

[cally]

Interesting.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

What is the context between the two statements? :)

It's obviously a very white "european" clade. If it centered in iran it says a lot about more than just Iran. If you deny that you are hopelessly biased.

If you look at haplomap of r1a, it almost has to have middle east origin if current spread has anything to do with the past. If that's truly the case then it says volumes about origin of r1b, as well.

[blogen]

It's obviously a very white "european" clade.

The absolute majority of the R1a carriers are very swarthy South Asians. And great part of the R1a carriers are swarthy* Europids and Europo-Mongoloids. Only a small minority between the R1a carriers are white.

*Swarthy = Not blond, whites = blondes!


If it centered in iran it says a lot about more than just Iran. If you deny that you are hopelessly biased.

The paternal and maternal lineages not connect to the physical character and many changes happened since its spread. Mixation with light color complexed peoples or depigmentation of the neolithic R1a newcomers and their descendants in the temperate latitudes, etc. The human colours change quickly.


If you look at haplomap of r1a, it almost has to have middle east origin if current spread has anything to do with the past. If that's truly the case then it says volumes about origin of r1b, as well.

Yes, the R1a and b were Middle Eastern origin. This is not new.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The absolute majority of the R1a carriers are very swarthy South Asians. And great part of the R1a carriers are swarthy* Europids and Europo-Mongoloids. Only a small minority between the R1a carriers are white.

*Swarthy = Not blond, whites = blondes!



The paternal and maternal lineages not connect to the physical character and many changes happened since its spread. Mixation with light color complexed peoples or depigmentation of the neolithic R1a newcomers and their descendants in the temperate latitudes, etc. The human colours change quickly.


Like I said, you bias shows. I don't care much about r1a to be honest, but still it's interesting, mainly because of ashkenazi jews with r1a ancestry and the alleged young date for its expansion.



Yes, the R1a and b were Middle Eastern origin. This is not new.

1. It's very doubtful they both originate in middle east, and uncertain either one really does. R* was clearly all over eurasia long before they formed so you could choose almost any spot as a possible origin point, especially for r1b which only has 1 sample.

2. All the ancient sources of r1a show very white genetics, and there's a lot of them.

3. The dark r1a is surrounded by a sea of darker dna, which is only reason it's dark, and only reason for a cast system.

4. It's impossible to whiten up by mixing with a white population, and still maintain super high levels of the same y-dna. Even in 'elite dominance' the best you could hope for is a 50/50 mix so this is plainly impossible.

[blogen]

And you forgot this, they were the R1a carriers:

"Our analysis indicates that positive selection on pigmentation variants associated with depigmented hair, skin, and eyes was still ongoing after the time period represented by our archaeological population, 6,500–4,000 y ago. This finding suggests that either the selection pressures that initiated the selective sweep during the Late Pleistocene or early Holocene were still operative or that a new selective environment had arisen in which depigmentation was favored for a different reason."
"In sum, a combination of selective pressures associated with living in northern latitudes, the adoption of an agriculturalist diet, and assortative mating may sufficiently explain the observed change from a darker phenotype during the Eneolithic/Early Bronze age to a generally lighter one in modern Eastern Europeans, although other selective factors cannot be discounted. The selection coefficients inferred directly from serially sampled data at these pigmentation loci range from 2 to 10% and are among the strongest signals of recent selection in humans."
Direct evidence for positive selection of skin, hair, and eye pigmentation in Europeans during the last 5,000 y (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/03/05/1316513111.full.pdf)

[Prisoner Of Ice]

And you forgot this, they were the R1a carriers:

"Our analysis indicates that positive selection on pigmentation variants associated with depigmented hair, skin, and eyes was still ongoing after the time period represented by our archaeological population, 6,500–4,000 y ago. This finding suggests that either the selection pressures that initiated the selective sweep during the Late Pleistocene or early Holocene were still operative or that a new selective environment had arisen in which depigmentation was favored for a different reason."
"In sum, a combination of selective pressures associated with living in northern latitudes, the adoption of an agriculturalist diet, and assortative mating may sufficiently explain the observed change from a darker phenotype during the Eneolithic/Early Bronze age to a generally lighter one in modern Eastern Europeans, although other selective factors cannot be discounted. The selection coefficients inferred directly from serially sampled data at these pigmentation loci range from 2 to 10% and are among the strongest signals of recent selection in humans."
Direct evidence for positive selection of skin, hair, and eye pigmentation in Europeans during the last 5,000 y (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/03/05/1316513111.full.pdf)

They are talking about europe as a whole and imply that the light skin genes came from the r1a folk. I doubt that is the case. The people in andronovo were mixed with people further east. Malta boy had the gene for freckles, too. He seemed like some mix that is not a direct ancestor of people today, but I am sure that r1a and r1b were both light by the time they split from r*. The numbers that they gave for selection would have been way too high for plausibility - we know of genes being selected and it goes fairly quick but that's like ten times as fast as is plausible.

[blogen]

They are talking about europe as a whole and imply that the light skin genes came from the r1a folk. I doubt that is the case. The people in andronovo were mixed with people further east. Malta boy had the gene for freckles, too. He seemed like some mix that is not a direct ancestor of people today, but I am sure that r1a and r1b were both light by the time they split from r*. The numbers that they gave for selection would have been way too high for plausibility - we know of genes being selected and it goes fairly quick but that's like ten times as fast as is plausible.

But this is the reality. This is one of the surprising scientific discoveries of the past years (it was discovered because of illnesses and allergies mostly), that the selection is so quick. The beneficial mutations spread under some thousand years. And this fact solve lot of problem in the racial history, for example the origin of the Northern Eurasian paleness. There was a disturbing difference between the archaeological finds and the contemporary populations. The contemporary Northern European population's considerable part does not have a racial ancestor in the Mesolithic. Only the Cromagnoids and the Lapponoids (and extint Veddoid elements of the Sungir population, they were Mesolithic migrants from the deep South) lived in Europe in the Mesolithic times. The velocity of the selection solves this problem, the other light color complexed European races were neolithic or later migrants and they were depigmented in the past millenia.

The original R1a and b carriers were swarthy than everybody else in the Middle East and South Asia. But later some of them changed in Europe.

[Kale]

They are not saying R1a is 5800 years old. They are saying R1a1a1 is 5800 years old. That's pretty believable I think, because it really starts to branch off a lot shortly after, from what we can all likely guess is Indo-European expansion.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

But this is the reality. This is one of the surprising scientific discoveries of the past years (it was discovered because of illnesses and allergies mostly), that the selection is so quick. The beneficial mutations spread under some thousand years. And this fact solve lot of problem in the racial history, for example the origin of the Northern Eurasian paleness. There was a disturbing difference between the archaeological finds and the contemporary populations. The contemporary Northern European population's considerable part does not have a racial ancestor in the Mesolithic. Only the Cromagnoids and the Lapponoids (and extint Veddoid elements of the Sungir population, they were Mesolithic migrants from the deep South) lived in Europe in the Mesolithic times. The velocity of the selection solves this problem, the other light color complexed European races were neolithic or later migrants and they were depigmented in the past millenia.

The original R1a and b carriers were swarthy than everybody else in the Middle East and South Asia. But later some of them changed in Europe.

No it's not, it's just assumption. They assumed their theory was right and backsolved the numbers, which is not really science at all. They have not sequenced anyone with r1b from ancient times and gotten their color genes. We don't expect the people with darkie clades to have been white. Therefore whole study is fucking ridiculous.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

They are not saying R1a is 5800 years old. They are saying R1a1a1 is 5800 years old. That's pretty believable I think, because it really starts to branch off a lot shortly after, from what we can all likely guess is Indo-European expansion.

Yeah I know but it's still very quick.

[Artek]

This thesis has blameworthy flaws, like putting Z280 upstream of Z282!!! and not testing other relevant SNP's like CTS4385, Z92 and Z280(!)itself.

Aside from it and other problems like undersampling of some regions, this is a huge progress and (hopefully) a source of cautious inspiration for other researchers.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Whoever moved the thread, don't do it again. This is not genetics, but archaeology that touches on genetics and moving the thread means I won't be able to find it later when digging through archaeology section.

[Unome]

I have an unfounded, groundless guess that Alexander the Great and his Macedonian armies spread Ar1An genes east into Persia and India. Before Alexander, I doubt if there was any r1A genes in those places.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I have an unfounded, groundless guess that Alexander the Great and his Macedonian armies spread Ar1An genes east into Persia and India. Before Alexander, I doubt if there was any r1A genes in those places.

That implies ashkenazi jews are all greeks, which I don't think is the case.

Anyway, archaeology and history says middle eastern people today are not what they were, it's a mistake to make that assumption going back that far because it's seldom true.

[LightHouse89]

It's obviously a very white "european" clade. If it centered in iran it says a lot about more than just Iran. If you deny that you are hopelessly biased.

If you look at haplomap of r1a, it almost has to have middle east origin if current spread has anything to do with the past. If that's truly the case then it says volumes about origin of r1b, as well.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

yes both came from west asia....it is said the original homeland of r1b is where red hair and green eyes comes from. I have read this.... to this day some people there are basically mongols with rb1 but have red hair! i think the siberian peoples may have pushed the rb1 and ra1 populations west ward as they were expanding and this resulted in both of these halogroups ending up in unpopulated europe.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

yes both came from west asia....it is said the original homeland of r1b is where red hair and green eyes comes from. I have read this.... to this day some people there are basically mongols with rb1 but have red hair! i think the siberian peoples may have pushed the rb1 and ra1 populations west ward as they were expanding and this resulted in both of these halogroups ending up in unpopulated europe.

Well, that is one theory. Personally I think r1a = middle east and r1b = iberia. It almost has to be because iberia did not speak IE languages when the romans came. But it could have come through from north africa as well, or by sea.

[gold_fenix]

the problem with R1b it seems there is an epmty in his trace, if were found a specific subclade of R1b (i don't remember which) in Europe then it would be conclused that r1b is of mesolthic origin

[Argang]

Ashkenazi jews have their own R1a type which is very diverged.

Davidski noted that from this study can be inferred that most Eastern and Northern European populations were unaffected by Turkics, because there is little Asian Z93 branch R1a in them but significantly more in Tatars and Turks with a peak in central Asia.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201450f4.jpg
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/Underhill_Z93.png~original

Northwest European R1a clusters differently because of Z284, also an European branch.

http://oi60.tinypic.com/nodeuc.jpg

[LightHouse89]

Well, that is one theory. Personally I think r1a = middle east and r1b = iberia. It almost has to be because iberia did not speak IE languages when the romans came. But it could have come through from north africa as well, or by sea.

i think it happened possibly before the Ice age. The Iberian referendum happened after and due to this isolation is why modern carriers are somewhat different than r1a carriers....but to me r1a may be much older and the originator of r1b? its just a wild guess and could be wrong but the two are realted and most likely originated in the far east in Eurasia and upper Middle East/ Iran/ and also north of Syria/Armenia.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

i think it happened possibly before the Ice age. The Iberian referendum happened after and due to this isolation is why modern carriers are somewhat different than r1a carriers....but to me r1a may be much older and the originator of r1b? its just a wild guess and could be wrong but the two are realted and most likely originated in the far east in Eurasia and upper Middle East/ Iran/ and also north of Syria/Armenia.

Well we more or less know R* covered most of eurasia. That is original theory and to me only one that makes sense with its huge spread.

[LightHouse89]

Well we more or less know R* covered most of eurasia. That is original theory and to me only one that makes sense with its huge spread.

I would love for scientists, historians and archeaologists to find more remains from those time periods in that area...if you think about it much of all of this is speculation but it is fascianting we can trace our history to that region.....would be interesting to see if they can find artifacts and old graves etc...there or any signs of civilization.

[Unome]

That implies ashkenazi jews are all greeks, which I don't think is the case.

Anyway, archaeology and history says middle eastern people today are not what they were, it's a mistake to make that assumption going back that far because it's seldom true.
There are a few anthropological basic facts about Y-DNA & mtDNA haplogroup spreads. Armies and warfare are more applicable to Y-DNA. Culture and religion is more applicable to mtDNA. There limited ways that people reproduce. And in the Old World mixing-race and miscegenation generally are frowned upon, disallowed, or even punished by death. Rape is another factor as well as arranged marriages, illegitimate children, and economic class disparity.

But another fact gets overlooked: historical revisionism. Victors of warfare and cultural dominance tend to erase history books and rewrite history in their own favors. This misleads a lot of contemporary analysis about aDNA spreads. This is most obvious with Europeans who always put their ethnicity in front of everything and say "We, the French, the British, the Germans, the Finns, the Greeks, the Italians, etc. are better than everybody else". This ethnocentricism perverts science & anthropology with bias.

Very few actually can look backward 1000 or 2000 years to see the truth of the time. Many populations were relocated, genocided, exterminated, etc. and then replaced by dominant societies.

So I essentially agree that Iran/Persia/Greece looked much different 2000 years ago compared to today.

Some populations (like Nordic Iceland) have remained genetically isolated for centuries and millenniums though. So some populations are pure, others impure.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Some populations (like Nordic Iceland) have remained genetically isolated for centuries and millenniums though. So some populations are pure, others impure.

Funny you mention that one, turns out all the y-dna is viking, and the mtdna is almost all irish.

Middle east is a crossroads and there's been some very big changes there both historically and in prehistory so it has to have changed a lot more than europe.

[Argang]

Funny you mention that one, turns out all the y-dna is viking, and the mtdna is almost all irish.


Also a very, very good example of how isolation and extreme genetic drift can affect genetic structure in populations, perhaps the most extreme in Europe.

Almost all ancestry of Icelandic populations (everything in this graph except Norway and Scotland) is from populations like Norway, Scotland, or Ireland which is very similar to Scotland. All differences seen here are caused by drift in various sub-regions of Iceland.

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1000505.g003&representation=PNG_L

This study also contains an estimate for the proportions of Scandinavian and British Isles in Iceland:
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1000505

Based on the available data, the optimal linear combination yielded an estimate of 64% Norse and 36% Scottish ancestry, with a standard error of less than 2%. The FST between the optimal linear combination and the observed allele frequencies in Iceland was 0.0014, which may be in part due to inadequate sampling from the true ancestral populations, but is likely to be mainly due to recent genetic drift in the Icelandic gene pool.

The same computation was performed for each of the 11 Icelandic regions, yielding ancestry estimates that were not statistically different. For each region, the estimate of Norse ancestry was between 62% and 65%, with a standard error of less than 2% (except region 1, for which we obtained 61% with a standard error of less than 3%). This provides strong evidence that the proportions of Norse and Gaelic ancestry do not vary among Icelandic regions, supporting the notion that differences between Icelandic regions are due to recent genetic drift rather than varying contributions from ancestral populations.

[Persian Otomi]

I also believe it originated in Iran, I remember reading that some think it came from India but I never believed that one

[Argang]

Maju agrees with Iranian origin for R1a



While this conclusion was something more or less reachable with previous data (see HERE for example), a new study adds some fine detail for us to reconstruct the paleohistory of this major Eurasian lineage.
...
Overall reconstruction of the spread of R1a

With all the previous analysis I made this map, which also shows in discrete gray color the general pattern of expansion of haplogroup R:


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oibl2LJE9p0/UzcexFkeZ0I/AAAAAAAACd0/duzTuAcI-P4/s1600/R1a+spread.jpeg


We have an expansion of R into South Asia and Western Eurasia (incl. Central Asia) and even into parts of Africa (R1b-V88) from apparent South Asian (R, R1 and R2) and West Asian (R1a, R1b) origins. Related lineages Q and P* could also be integrated into this pattern of expansion but I did not want to overload the map with too many details.

There is some uncertainty regarding the North European branches of R1a but otherwise the pattern seems quite clear.

On these North European branches, I must say that they remind me of other odd lineages with similar geography: R1b-U106, I1-M253 and I2a2-M223. With the likely exception of R1b-U106 neither appears to have experienced any significant re-expansion since their arrival to that corner of the World, however they do seem to survive pretty well in it.


http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2014/03/y-dna-r1a-spread-from-iran.html

Davidski doesn't agree with this and suggests a more northern origin (Volga-Ural region or thereabouts) for R1a, check out the comments section for some interesting discussion on the matter.

[Artek]

Maju agrees with Iranian origin for R1a
Maju doesn't have any idea how are various sub-haplotypes actually distributed, he ignores many old European haplotypes from Myres et al. and other sources - he just works on the data from Underhill's thesis.
He is probably right about the origin of R1a* itself but he is not when we take downstream clades into consideration.

It also doesn't add up in terms of autosomal genetics, when even Z93+ folks must have previously been a heavy WHG and North-Eastern European-like component carrier instead of loaded with Gedrosian component people from South of the Caspian. And this direct path of Z284 when it's real origin is from Z282 carrier... I'm not defending Davidski but his theory has more sense to me.

[Argang]

Maju doesn't have any idea how are various sub-haplotypes actually distributed, he ignores many old European haplotypes from Myres et al. and other sources - he just works on the data from Underhill's thesis.
He is probably right about the origin of R1a* itself but he is not when we take downstream clades into consideration.

It also doesn't add up in terms of autosomal genetics, when even Z93+ folks must have previously been a heavy WHG and North-Eastern European-like component carrier instead of loaded with Gedrosian component people from South of the Caspian. And this direct path of Z284 when it's real origin is from Z282 carrier... I'm not defending Davidski but his theory has more sense to me.

What we need is autosomal DNA from ancient Central Asian and South Siberian R1a-Z93+ samples, and some ancient Iranian autosomal DNA for comparison.

There is Ust-Ishim on its way, but that is probably a bit too old to say anything about MNOPS people.

Based on our current knowledge, wouldn't a Volga-Ural split for Z93 imply that the whole bunch immediately moved close to Altai and then experienced an in-situ expansion before spreading further? Z93 is not present in the Volga region now except as an invasive element (Tatars).

[blogen]

Z93 is not present in the Volga region now except as an invasive element (Tatars).

There are Hungarian Z93 samples, 4,3% of the total Hungarian R1a sample is Z93!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mowiRN58enM/UJI1NhnL5LI/AAAAAAAAHGk/dfrmdKy8Dvo/s1600/R1a1.png

Yes, we were Western Siberian peoples once (Tobol, Ishim region), but not Altaic!

[Argang]

There are Hungarian Z93 samples, 4,3% of the total Hungarian R1a sample is Z93!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mowiRN58enM/UJI1NhnL5LI/AAAAAAAAHGk/dfrmdKy8Dvo/s1600/R1a1.png

Yes, we were Western Siberian peoples once (Tobol, Ishim region), but not Altaic!

They had Hungarian samples in the Underhill et al paper too, and the R1a-Z93 frequencies (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg201450x4.pdf) were not really different from other European populations (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg201450f4.html#figure-title), there were a couple but they might be outliers and there's no telling where and when it came from. Tatars were clearly differentiated from Volga populations in their Z93-frequency.

In that study you posted, it seems that roma have lots of Z93, and they certainly didn't come from Siberia or Central Asia.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

They had Hungarian samples in the Underhill et al paper too, and the R1a-Z93 frequencies (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg201450x4.pdf) were not really different from other European populations (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg201450f4.html#figure-title), there were a couple but they might be outliers and there's no telling where and when it came from. Tatars were clearly differentiated from Volga populations in their Z93-frequency.

In that study you posted, it seems that roma have lots of Z93, and they certainly didn't come from Siberia or Central Asia.

Nothing came out of there because no one lived in central asia! And there were only very small populations in siberia.

[Rambo07]

The absolute majority of the R1a carriers are very swarthy South Asians. And great part of the R1a carriers are swarthy* Europids and Europo-Mongoloids. Only a small minority between the R1a carriers are white.

*Swarthy = Not blond, whites = blondes!




The paternal and maternal lineages not connect to the physical character and many changes happened since its spread. Mixation with light color complexed peoples or depigmentation of the neolithic R1a newcomers and their descendants in the temperate latitudes, etc. The human colours change quickly.





Genotype does not equal Phenotype and R1a proves that examplifies that. As usual you own the thread Blogen lol.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Genotype does not equal Phenotype and R1a proves that examplifies that. As usual you own the thread Blogen lol.

What a joke. R1a obviously doesn't come from India.

[portusaus]

I'm Z93+ R1a from England, a rare breed indeed. I'm not surprised at this theory, my y-dna specifically propably does trace back to eastern Iran.

[Fire Haired]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/03/major-new-article-on-deep-origins-of-y.html



I am not surprised in some ways, but am surprised in others. R1a origin in Iran is not too shocking to me, they are basically scythians really. Some people might get butthurt at the obvious proof middle east is originally a super whitey zone, but what else is new.

The super young age seems crazy, though. I mean we already have r1a samples pretty far back, but whatever - these issues will be resolved in time with more sampling, I guess. I don't really buy into moleculat clock idea, but it could be that many y-dna mutations are NOT neutral and selection could lead to very rapid promulgation of them.

I really doubt R1a originated in Iran. R1a1 has been found in the Corded ware culture(nearly identical distribution to R1a Z282) and in early Indo Iranians. Iranians are not Scythians.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I really doubt R1a originated in Iran. R1a1 has been found in the Corded ware culture(nearly identical distribution to R1a Z282) and in early Indo Iranians. Iranians are not Scythians.

Scythians covered the whole area. What's there today makes no difference to the origins. If you look at haplogroup map of all of R it centers in Iran and has a hollow spot there. Wonder what happened? Oh yeah muslims happened.

J and other crap don't originate there, they are invasive obviously.

[Fire Haired]

Scythians covered the whole area. What's there today makes no difference to the origins. If you look at haplogroup map of all of R it centers in Iran and has a hollow spot there. Wonder what happened? Oh yeah muslims happened.

What Y DNA came from Muslims, plus i see little evidence of major Arab ancestry in admixture results of Iranians. What Y DNA R map? Iranians are not mainly descendants from Sycthians who were known for red hair, and probably closely related to Andronovo, Caucasoid tarim mummies, and Tocherians.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I don't understand that. What Y DNA R map? Iranians are not mainly descendants from Sycthians who were known for red hair, and probably closely related to Andronovo, Caucasoid tarim mummies, and Tocherians.

Scythians covered whole areas of Iran. Just because they don't today, doesn't mean they don't come from there.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/R1a1a_distribution.png

WHERE IS THE CENTER? Here's a hint, 80% of the more nothern part is often covered in ice so it probably didn't come from there.

If it didn't come from roughly the center area then there must have been some very funny migrations is near modern times.

[Fire Haired]

Scythians covered whole areas of Iran. Just because they don't today, doesn't mean they don't come from there.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/R1a1a_distribution.png

WHERE IS THE CENTER? Here's a hint, 80% of the more nothern part is often covered in ice so it probably didn't come from there.

If it didn't come from roughly the center area then there must have been some very funny migrations is near modern times.

That's R1a, also you need to get some real percentages not ideas from a map.

My argument can be as basic as this.

Do Iranians look anything like these guys.

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http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/54527000/jpg/_54527955_estonia1.jpg

http://i.io.ua/img_su/large/0010/03/00100363_n9.jpg

If not they are not mainly descended from Scythians who did look something like(at least pigmentation wise) the people above. There is other evidence but this is the most obvious.

[Argang]

I'm Z93+ R1a from England, a rare breed indeed. I'm not surprised at this theory, my y-dna specifically propably does trace back to eastern Iran.

The most likely origin usually depends on the subclade. Z93 for instance has some (Z2125, M780, M582), that were spread into Europe more likely by Roma gypsies and Jews than by Iranian tribes.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GzKeWXBRL8c/UzmCm9DhxHI/AAAAAAAACEw/sVkJ9ToxBVc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+Western+Europe.png
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--zDG5nSUiJc/UzmCqjzuCRI/AAAAAAAACE4/O7yg2DcBANQ/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+CentralSouth+Europe.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zlJZeDbZ5Rk/UzmCvFM_XSI/AAAAAAAACFA/cz-q-kL2OsI/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+Roma.png
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-pK51RJpYJns/UzmCyPGmQHI/AAAAAAAACFI/xr5Djjsqtvw/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+Jews.png

[Prisoner Of Ice]

That's R1a, also you need to get some real percentages not ideas from a map.

My argument can be as basic as this.

Do Iranians look anything like these guys.

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http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/54527000/jpg/_54527955_estonia1.jpg

http://i.io.ua/img_su/large/0010/03/00100363_n9.jpg

If not they are not mainly descended from Scythians who did look something like(at least pigmentation wise) the people above. There is other evidence but this is the most obvious.

I know what your argument is, but it's completely ridiculous.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?115968-Hey-ButlerKing-Kazahstahn-was-100-european-until-at-least-2700-years-ago&p=2427745#post2427745

What people look like today is not necessarily anything to do with what the people who lived there 5000+ years ago looked like. Holy shit man, you keep telling me that all r1b and H came into europe around then (against all logic), but then you turn around and say that people who live in other regions always were exactly like they are now. If that theory is true Iran is one of the few likely places it could come from ffs, so how could it have always been the same?

This is all internet bullshit from guys like ButlerKing, not anything to do with reality.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Genotype does not equal Phenotype and R1a proves that examplifies that. As usual you own the thread Blogen lol.

Don't ever leave me insulting rep again dumbfuck. I would smash your face to pieces if you ever said shit like that to me in real life. This is the conclusion of the study, not something I made up asshole. So go fuck yourself.

I'm reporting you again, dickhead. If you can't act normal then you don't need to be posting here.

[Fire Haired]

I know what your argument is, but it's completely ridiculous.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?115968-Hey-ButlerKing-Kazahstahn-was-100-european-until-at-least-2700-years-ago&p=2427745#post2427745

What people look like today is not necessarily anything to do with what the people who lived there 5000+ years ago looked like. Holy shit man, you keep telling me that all r1b and H came into europe around then (against all logic), but then you turn around and say that people who live in other regions always were exactly like they are now. If that theory is true Iran is one of the few likely places it could come from ffs, so how could it have always been the same?

This is all internet bullshit from guys like ButlerKing, not anything to do with reality.

Sycthians did look something like that, modern Iranians do not. So Iran does not equal Sycthian. Like i said before there is plenty of other prove, like in Y DNA, mtDNA, and autosomal DNA that modern Iranians are not mainly descended from Sycthians. I see no reason to keep arguing because i have a feeling your just playing with me.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Sycthians did look something like that, modern Iranians do not. So Iran does not equal Sycthian. Like i said before there is plenty of other prove, like in Y DNA, mtDNA, and autosomal DNA that modern Iranians are not mainly descended from Sycthians. I see no reason to keep arguing because i have a feeling your just playing with me.

Ancient Iran WAS scythian, period. That is not in dispute, but what we call a fact. You can get that out of wikipedia!

There's scythian archaeological sites in Iran, so the people who live there today don't matter one whit.

[Fire Haired]

Ancient Iran WAS scythian, period. That is not in dispute, but what we call a fact. You can get that out of wikipedia!

There's scythian archaeological sites in Iran, so the people who live there today don't matter one whit.

Modern Iranians are not mainly descended from Sycthians. Plus Iranians are Iranians not Sycthians, maybe Sycthians had migrated but they were not ancient Iranians(i know they were Indo iranians, wording gets confusing). Besides that is not evidence R1a originated in Iran, because the Sycthians descended from Pontaic Steppe(in eastern Europe) Indo europeans and their relatives arrived in iran only during the bronze age.

[blogen]

Modern Iranians are not mainly descended from Sycthians. Plus Iranians are Iranians not Sycthians, maybe Sycthians had migrated but they were not ancient Iranians(i know they were Indo iranians, wording gets confusing). Besides that is not evidence R1a originated in Iran, because the Sycthians descended from Pontaic Steppe(in eastern Europe) Indo europeans and their relatives arrived in iran only during the bronze age.

Every Scythian were Iranian, since the Scythians were not Aryans, but the Iranian Iranians, the ancient inhabitants of the present Iran were not Scythians.

[Fire Haired]

Every Scythian were Iranian, since the Scythians were not Aryans, but the Iranian Iranians, the ancient inhabitants of the present Iran were not Scythians.

Exactly. Also based on previous conversations i think you'd be interested in this More from Laz, Including blue eyed-dark haired-light skinned(?) Mesolithic Swede (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?121044-More-from-Laz-Including-blue-eyed-dark-haired-light-skinned(-)-Mesolithic-Swede).