Yugoslavia and the allegations of it being artificial

[poiuytrewq0987]

I've noticed a common trend among Europeans calling Yugoslavia "artificial". I am pretty offended by that, the reason? Yugoslavia was never an artificial state but rather a common union of Slavs in the Balkans. If Yugoslavia is considered artificial then the State of Germany is artificial, the UK too.

I have always considered the creation of Yugoslavia to be the finest moment of our lives because it paved the way to economic prosperity, common union, and the end of wars in the Balkans among brothers. A South Slavic person who calls himself Yugoslav instead of Serb or Bulgarian will always be a monumental triumph. It is considered a monumental triumph because it means the person who calls himself Yugoslav has realized that South Slavs are not so different. We all deserve to be united under a single banner as Germans have or the peoples of UK have.

The linguistic differences between South Slavs are not so different. The Slovenians, Croats and Serbs speak a very similar language with Slovenia slightly different than the rest. While the Macedonians and Bulgarians speak a noticeably different language compared to the Serbs or Croats; both nationalities speak a language that is noticeably similar. Racially, a person from Slovenia or Croatia will look noticeably different from a person in Bulgaria but the differences are not large like North Germans compared to Austrians.

The idea of a Yugoslavia emerged at a similar time the idea of a united German state. The only difference was that Prussia was very strong militarily compared to Slavic States in the Balkans who were of equal strength. The Germany we know today is because of Prussia who used brute force to bring together the German people under a single banner. It was pretty much the opposite for the South Slavs who were brought together through treaties and even it didn't include all South Slavic countries like Bulgaria. So, Yugoslavia was subject to the people's emotion and it flared in 1991 which caused the collapse of the Yugoslavia we once knew. If a Yugoslavia was created through brute force, it probably would've had more success.

The Yugoslavian identity isn't at all artificial, Yugoslav itself means "South Slavic" and Yugoslavia meaning South Slavia or Land of South Slavia. Obviously there are South Slavs today and some of them chose to identify with their subrace over their ethnicity forged through the fires of divisive nationalism. Try to imagine Germania today if there was no Prussia, there'd be Wurttenberg, Westphalia, Saxony, Bavaria, and so on... Very similar to what the Balkans look like today. Instead of a Yugoslavia, we have Serbia, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Montenegro, Croatia, Slovenia and Macedonia. Yugoslavia itself is solely a Pan-South Slavic ideology very alike to Pan-Germanism (which gave rise to modern Germany).

[Monolith]

This text smacks of ignorance and is full of ridiculous fallacies. I didn't notice it when you posted it, Libre, but I will be more than happy to share what I know on the subject. If you still care about that wretched country, that is.

[poiuytrewq0987]

This text smacks of ignorance and is full of ridiculous fallacies. I didn't notice it when you posted it, Libre, but I will be more than happy to share what I know on the subject. If you still care about that wretched country, that is.

Just because the Yugoslav identity's emergence is pretty recent to say, German identity doesn't make it artificial. I guess we should wait for like 500-1,000 years until it is no longer considered artificial? :coffee:

[Gaztelu]

the UK too.


The UK is nowhere near as homogeneous as the FR Yugoslavia.

[Guapo]

This text smacks of ignorance and is full of ridiculous fallacies. I didn't notice it when you posted it, Libre, but I will be more than happy to share what I know on the subject. If you still care about that wretched country, that is.

"Just because some people,old farts etc., liked Yugoslavia doesn't mean they're commie or idiots or whatever just because you don't gree with them. People like it now because there were no wars, plain and simple and if you think that Serb and Croat diaspora/lobbyists had absolutely nothing to do with the break-up then you are very much mistaken"

Son of a ex-Uprava državne bezbednosti/sigurnosti/varnosti agent

[Monolith]

Just because the Yugoslav identity's emergence is pretty recent to say, German identity doesn't make it artificial. I guess we should wait for like 500-1,000 years until it is no longer considered artificial? :coffee:
I don't care if it's recent or not. The main issue here is there was no organic development of identity at work here.

Yugoslavia was never an artificial state but rather a common union of Slavs in the Balkans.
It was artificial in a sense that it was held together by a strong cult of personality, complemented by a rather successful propaganda machinery. Needless to say, there was a powerful military and an omnipresent secret service to make sure the other two factors continue their work unabated.


I have always considered the creation of Yugoslavia to be the finest moment of our lives
You and I were not even born then.

because it paved the way to economic prosperity
I have already wasted enough of my time trying to explain why that economy was a failure. You can read it again if you like.


common union
I don't see how that's a good thing by itself.


and the end of wars in the Balkans among brothers.
This rather romantic concept of brotherhood died decades ago.


A South Slavic person who calls himself Yugoslav instead of Serb or Bulgarian will always be a monumental triumph. It is considered a monumental triumph because it means the person who calls himself Yugoslav has realized that South Slavs are not so different.
wow. I don't have to call myself Yugoslav in order to acknowledge the similarities between South Slavic peoples. It is wrong, and even plainly moronic to relativise them.


We all deserve to be united under a single banner as Germans have or the peoples of UK have.
I wouldn't wish that to anyone, as I do not condone the sacrifice of one's identity, language and culture in order for one to become part of some abstractly defined greater whole. My identity is much, much more valuable than that.


The linguistic differences between South Slavs are not so different. The Slovenians, Croats and Serbs speak a very similar language with Slovenia slightly different than the rest.
Most Croats and Serbs don't understand Slovene and Bulgarian. Aside from that, Croats actually speak three languages (štokavian, kajkavian and čakavian), out of which only štokavian is mutually intelligible with Serbian variants. They're officially called 'dialects', but level of differentiation between is them larger than that between some Slavic languages, like Czech vs. Slovak or Ukrainian vs. Belarussian. So, the situation here is much more complex than you think.


It was pretty much the opposite for the South Slavs who were brought together through treaties
Which treaties? Can you name one of them officially sanctioned by Croatian authorities? First Yugoslavia, or a precursor to it (Kingdom of SHS), was created without the sanction of Croatian parliament. The second one was created by victorious anti-fascist forces.


even it didn't include all South Slavic countries like Bulgaria.
There were plans to include Bulgaria but that became impossible after the Tito-Stalin split, as Bulgaria was a Soviet satellite back then.


So, Yugoslavia was subject to the people's emotion and it flared in 1991 which caused the collapse of the Yugoslavia we once knew.
There was never this 'people'. Even the constitution of Socialist Yugoslavia stated there are different nations (constituent South Slavic peoples) and nationalities (non-Slavic Albanians, Hungarians) inhabiting it.


If a Yugoslavia was created through brute force, it probably would've had more success.
Historically, whatever was created through brute force tended to end in brute force.


The Yugoslavian identity isn't at all artificial, Yugoslav itself means "South Slavic" and Yugoslavia meaning South Slavia or Land of South Slavia.
I fail to see how this etymology of yours has anything to do with the state of being artificial.


Obviously there are South Slavs today and some of them chose to identify with their subrace over their ethnicity forged through the fires of divisive nationalism.
Sure, they can call themselves whatever they like. I believe there are even some residents of Croatia that declare themselves as Eskimos.


Try to imagine Germania today if there was no Prussia, there'd be Wurttenberg, Westphalia, Saxony, Bavaria, and so on... Very similar to what the Balkans look like today. Instead of a Yugoslavia, we have Serbia, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Montenegro, Croatia, Slovenia and Macedonia.
So? Anyway, this comparison is not valid. It would be enough to say that there are two completely different histories in question here. Other than that, people of Germany have a tradition of being a single nation (HRE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire)), whereas this is not the case with the latter, and they belong to the same civilisation circle.

Or maybe it's valid if you're completely detached from reality and view things from a perspective in which you deem it would be very pragmatic to unite with as much people as possible, in order to have more money or maybe a more powerful army? I, for one, don't care about that.


Yugoslavia itself is solely a Pan-South Slavic ideology very alike to Pan-Germanism (which gave rise to modern Germany).
Yes, and it failed. Miserably. Give it a rest man.

[Heretik]

Son of a ex-Uprava državne bezbednosti/sigurnosti/varnosti agent

Sounds about right, though I'm pretty sure he doesn't even know what UDBA was. If he knew he would already praise them. :rolleyes2:

[Monolith]

The UK is nowhere near as homogeneous as the FR Yugoslavia.
Quite the contrary, Yugoslavia was very heterogeneous.

"Just because some people,old farts etc., liked Yugoslavia doesn't mean they're commie or idiots or whatever just because you don't gree with them. People like it now because there were no wars, plain and simple and if you think that Serb and Croat diaspora/lobbyists had absolutely nothing to do with the break-up then you are very much mistaken"

This word 'commie' I used earlier was actually an insult aimed mainly at hardcore lefties/liberals/multicultis here in Croatia, who would like the ex-state to return. They're mostly concentrated at the Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. :D

Everyone else in the category of Yugonostalgics pretty much miss the ensured employment, and some other (real or perceived) material benefits of the socialist system. Simple minds they are, that care little about ideals or truth.

[Heretik]

Quite the contrary, Yugoslavia was very heterogeneous.

Absolutely. Out of my head I can name at least 10 nations who lived or live here.


They're mostly concentrated at the Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb. :D

:laugh: :laugh:


Everyone else in the category of Yugonostalgics pretty much miss the ensured employment, and some other (real or perceived) material benefits of the socialist system. Simple minds they are, that care little about ideals or truth.

People are cattle. Been in those days, are now too. ;)

[Eldritch]

People are cattle. Been in those days, are now too. ;)

Sorry to go off-topic, but when-ever someone makes a statement like this I'm compelled to ask, what makes them any different from the general flow of humanity?

[Heretik]

Sorry to go off-topic, but when-ever someone makes a statement like this I'm compelled to ask, what makes them any different from the general flow of humanity?

It doesn't.
Or have you meant what differentiates me from the general flow of humanity?

[Eldritch]

It doesn't.
Or have you meant what differentiates me from the general flow of humanity?

Well, anyone who says people are cattle.

[Heretik]

I can only talk about myself and what differentiates me from the general flow is that I don't take anything for a fact, I question everything, I am not a gullible person who falls to cheap tricks others are trying to play, I do not trust the mass media, I don't read gossip news etc. etc. Most people I am usually surrounded by are not like that hence the word cattle; not that I don't like them but an inquisitive mind is always more interesting.

[Guapo]

I can only talk about myself and what differentiates me from the general flow is that I don't take anything for a fact, I question everything, I am not a gullible person who falls to cheap tricks others are trying to play, I do not trust the mass media, I don't read gossip news etc. etc. Most people I am usually surrounded by are not like that hence the word cattle; not that I don't like them but an inquisitive mind is always more interesting.

But why cattle? why not sheep, or goose, or mice?

[Monolith]

But why cattle? why not sheep, or goose, or mice?
Phrases 'ljudi su stoka' (people are cattle) and 'ljudi su ovce' (people are sheep) are usually used in Croatian to describe the opposite of what Heretik considers himself to be. I suppose it's the same in Serbian?

[Guapo]

Phrases 'ljudi su stoka' (people are cattle) and 'ljudi su ovce' (people are sheep) are usually used in Croatian to describe the opposite of what Heretik considers himself to be. I suppose it's the same in Serbian?

What does heretik consider himself to be? :D We say 'ljudi su stoka' (people are livestock). In Bosnian it's 'Djes te ba raja'.

[Aramis]

My father used to call me stoka.

[Cheesypie]

The UK is nowhere near as homogeneous as the FR Yugoslavia.

That's partly due to ethnic cleansing of groups such as the Volksdeutsche.

[Beorn]

The UK is nowhere near as homogeneous as the FR Yugoslavia.

How so?

[Guapo]

How so?

dunno, Yugoslavia was never homogeneous, homophobic maybe.