How did basques get 75% H mtdna if if came from outside europe, and when exactly did this happen?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/eur-mtdna.png

Basques aren't Indo European, and none of Iberia was when the Romans came. They also have no language affinities for anyone except some people in the new world. This implies they are indigenous going way back to solutrean times.

The theory H came out of LBK is utter bunk, too. LBK was wiped out, a dead end. And farming was now known to be in europe thousands of years before then.

LBK also had only 20% H mtdna. By mere mixing that would never grow to this proportion, but the populations involved are way too high for it to be founder effect of some kind.

[Artek]

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/eur-mtdna.png

Basques aren't Indo European, and none of Iberia was when the Romans came. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberians

They also have no language affinities for anyone except some people in the new world. This implies they are indigenous going way back to solutrean times.
This implies that they can speak a neolithic-farmer language as well, why not? Their genetical data doesn't seem convincing as well, with most male lines belonging to some downstream R1b subclades and autosomal showing their closer ties with neolithic people than with hunters-gatherers.


The theory H came out of LBK is utter bunk, too. LBK was wiped out, a dead end. And farming was now known to be in europe thousands of years before then.
Of course there was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardial_Ware


LBK also had only 20% H mtdna. By mere mixing that would never grow to this proportion, but the populations involved are way too high for it to be founder effect of some kind.
But the populations were much smaller once, I suspect that Basques surpassed a founder effect.I will change my mind if someone releases a great and convincing thesis about their mtDNA.

[Black Wolf]

Autosomal DNA studies have shown that basques are largely of Neolithic farmer (Mediterranean) origin with some Mesolithic hunter-gatherer ancestry as well. I bet some H was in Europe and that area possibly before the Neolithic but it does seem like most of the H lineages among present day Europeans including Basques probably came during the Neolithic with farmers from the Near East.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Autosomal DNA studies have shown that basques are largely of Neolithic farmer (Mediterranean) origin with some Mesolithic hunter-gatherer ancestry as well. I bet some H was in Europe and that area possibly before the Neolithic but it does seem like most of the H lineages among present day Europeans including Basques probably came during the Neolithic with farmers from the Near East.

Well, of course they are early european farmers, whatever their origin. The thing is it's just assumed this means they come from outside. Yet this component doesn't exist outside europe so....

[Aldaris]

Autosomal DNA studies have shown that basques are largely of Neolithic farmer (Mediterranean)

Post me a link, please. If its true, shouldn't we have some significant west asian/caucasian component?

As for the H haplogroup, it has been present in Europe even during the paleolithic era. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancient_european_dna.shtml However, as you said, its certainly not paleolithic exclusive, for example Sardinians do have a large amount of H, while being mostly of megalithic origin (which is neolithic).

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Post me a link, please. If its true, shouldn't we have some significant west asian/caucasian component?

As for the H haplogroup, it has been present in Europe even during the paleolithic era. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancient_european_dna.shtml However, as you said, its certainly not paleolithic exclusive, for example Sardinians do have a large amount of H, while being mostly of megalithic origin (which is neolithic).

Plus like I said elsewhere many times, H probably originates in iberia. There's papers claiming this, and many of the ancient dna sampling done in iberia never tested for H. Ancient r1b is still missing from iberia but there's simply no sign of it anywhere in large numbers.

[Black Wolf]

Post me a link, please. If its true, shouldn't we have some significant west asian/caucasian component?

As for the H haplogroup, it has been present in Europe even during the paleolithic era. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/ancient_european_dna.shtml However, as you said, its certainly not paleolithic exclusive, for example Sardinians do have a large amount of H, while being mostly of megalithic origin (which is neolithic).

Based on autosomal DNA results the dominant component among Basques is the Mediterranean one which is also the dominant component of the ancient Neolithic farmers of Europe. It probably came from the Near East to Europe during Neolithic times. It is likely that the West Asian/Caucasus component came mostly later on during the Bronze age or even later.

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/10/assessment-of-ancient-european-dna-with.html

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Based on autosomal DNA results the dominant component among Basques is the Mediterranean one which is also the dominant component of the ancient Neolithic farmers of Europe. It probably came from the Near East to Europe during Neolithic times. It is likely that the West Asian/Caucasus component came mostly later on during the Bronze age or even later.

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/10/assessment-of-ancient-european-dna-with.html

Like H, it's just assumed megalithic culture comes from outside europe. Archaeologically, there is no evidence of that. Gok4 comes from sweden, and when people talk about neolithic incursions they usually talk about LBK which is later - it's known to come from the east but it's also LOWER in mediterranean component so....

[Argang]

Like H, it's just assumed megalithic culture comes from outside europe. Archaeologically, there is no evidence of that. Gok4 comes from sweden, and when people talk about neolithic incursions they usually talk about LBK which is later - it's known to come from the east but it's also LOWER in mediterranean component so....

Gok4 is funnelbeaker, even more recent than LBK. This makes sense given that North Europe must have been reached later and in smaller numbers by these farmers, as their genetic contribution is highest in the Mediterranean. Genetically the farmers all seem to be like Stuttgart, a mix of Afro-Asiatic/Bedouin component and local hunter-gatherers like Loschbour.


The amount of Near Eastern admixture estimated for Stuttgart can be seen in Table S13.2 and ranges between 55-100% with estimates increasing as the amount of estimated African admixture in BedouinB increases. Estimates using Dinka or Ju_hoan_North as an African outgroup are similar. There are reasons to doubt both the lower estimates (near 55%), since ALDER provides only a lower bound on African ancestry, but also the higher estimates (near 100%) since there is direct evidence that Stuttgart has European hunter-gatherer ancestry (Fig. 1B and Table S13.1). Determining the precise levels of Near Eastern admixture in Stuttgart must await further ancient DNA studies from both Europe and the Near East, but we can at least reasonably suggest that most of the sample’s ancestry was Near Eastern, consistent with the mtDNA evidence for the Linearbandkeramik, which demonstrated a strong Near Eastern influence.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

So if these guys really come from middle east does this mean basques get their high neanderthal content from middle east?! This is one of the reasons I always found this hard to swallow.

I don't think brown eyes necessarily = not european (though I was thinking this due to hunter gatherer finds). Do we actually have any hunter gatherer genes from iberia? I guess that is the million dollar question.

[Kale]

So if these guys really come from middle east does this mean basques get their high neanderthal content from middle east?! This is one of the reasons I always found this hard to swallow.

I don't think brown eyes necessarily = european (though I was thinking this due to hunter gatherer finds). Do we actually have any hunter gatherer genes from iberia? I guess that is the million dollar question.

I assume Basques would get high neanderthal scores due to Meso/paleolithic Western European ancestry. Moderns probably didn't just mix with neanderthals once, we probably mixed a little wherever we went. The longer distance you travel from the original mixing point (Middle East?) through neanderthal territory, the more you are going to pick up. Unless neanderthals lived on Atlantis, there really isn't any more mixing points past Iberia.

Also I thought all the hunter-gatherers were turning up blue eyed and the farmers brown eyed? I think the best we have in Iberia is Brana.

[Stimpy]

Do we actually have any hunter gatherer genes from iberia? I guess that is the million dollar question.
7000 year old hunter-gatherer La Brana 1 from Spain actually shared the most genetic similarities to modern Scandinavians and not Basques or other Iberians.

Despite La Brana 1's dark colour, the research revealed genetic similarities with Scandinavians from Sweden and Finland.
He also shared a common ancestor with people who inhabited the Upper Palaeolithic site of Mal'ta, near Lake Baikal, Siberia, more than 20,000 years ago.

[Argang]

I assume Basques would get high neanderthal scores due to Meso/paleolithic Western European ancestry. Moderns probably didn't just mix with neanderthals once, we probably mixed a little wherever we went. The longer distance you travel from the original mixing point (Middle East?) through neanderthal territory, the more you are going to pick up. Unless neanderthals lived on Atlantis, there really isn't any more mixing points past Iberia.

Also I thought all the hunter-gatherers were turning up blue eyed and the farmers brown eyed? I think the best we have in Iberia is Brana.

This is true. Hunter-gatherers so far (Loschbour, La Braña etc) have been blue-eyed. Also Basques do have preserved hunter-gatherer ancestry, enough to form a local peak according to Lazaridis et al study. This means that while they might not have as much mesolithic ancestry as North Europeans (western or eastern), they do have more than French and considerably more than Spanish or Italians.

[Cail]

Offtopic:

Solutrean is an unproven theory.

A link between the Northern (particularly North-Eastern) Europe and Native America is much better explained by the common paleo-North-Eurasian heritage or even later gene flow across the northern Eurasia.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Offtopic:

Solutrean is an unproven theory.

A link between the Northern (particularly North-Eastern) Europe and Native America is much better explained by the common paleo-North-Eurasian heritage or even later gene flow across the northern Eurasia.

They have found solutrean artifacts in several american sites now. It's 100% proven.

[Kale]

They have found solutrean artifacts in several american sites now. It's 100% proven.

As far as I know, it's been one lonely blade. It was indeed mineralologically? shown to have a source in France. How do we know this guy didn't just grab a French flint and say he found it in Georgia or wherever.

[Cail]

They have found solutrean artifacts in several american sites now. It's 100% proven.

Is that right? I'm very excited - could you please gief any links? This is a very interesting subject to me, last time I checked (year ago or so), it hasn't been proven yet.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I bumped the thread in archaeology section just for you.

[Artek]

This is true. Hunter-gatherers so far (Loschbour, La Braña etc) have been blue-eyed. Also Basques do have preserved hunter-gatherer ancestry, enough to form a local peak according to Lazaridis et al study. This means that while they might not have as much mesolithic ancestry as North Europeans (western or eastern), they do have more than French and considerably more than Spanish or Italians.
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2240/q1is.png

French 0,311 of WHG
Basque 0,293 of WHG
Spain 0,068 of WHG

Of course many depends on a sampling but I don't know why Spanish sample is so low in WHG component. Gradient clearly goes in the Northern-Northeastern direction.

[Argang]

French 0,311 of WHG
Basque 0,293 of WHG
Spain 0,068 of WHG

Of course many depends on a sampling but I don't know why Spanish sample is so low in WHG component. Gradient clearly goes in the Northern-Northeastern direction.

Yeah, I should've elaborated and said South French (0,195 WHG).

It seems that there's quite a North/South cline in France, much stronger than in Britain.

[Artek]

Yeah, I should've elaborated and said South French (0,195 WHG).

It seems that there's quite a North/South cline in France, much stronger than in Britain.
It makes me wonder who really makes up a South French sample, in other words - what areas are covered with data points.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9159/6g9k.png
Position of Basques is interesting, they make a peak because of their low ANE most likely.

[Argang]

It makes me wonder who really makes up a South French sample, in other words - what areas are covered with data points.

Position of Basques is interesting, they make a peak because of their low ANE most likely.

I looked at the coordinates, the South French are from Pyrénées-Atlantiques department right next to the Basques. It's a quite a difference in WHG considering that.

Could be of course that some Spanish made it in, but I trust they're locals. Capital samples are more likely to be different from each other. In the Chromopainter zoom at Davidski's blog you can see that individuals from Belarusian and Finnish samples, which according to coordinates are from capitals, cluster with various populations (some with balts, some with Mordovians and Russians, some with Ukrainians) while others like Lithuanians, Mordovians and Estonians have all samples stay in one cluster. The lone Czech guy/gal clustering with Ukrainians and Belarusians is probably not where most Czech should be either, and those samples were from capital too.

[Aldaris]

Based on autosomal DNA results the dominant component among Basques is the Mediterranean one which is also the dominant component of the ancient Neolithic farmers of Europe. It probably came from the Near East to Europe during Neolithic times. It is likely that the West Asian/Caucasus component came mostly later on during the Bronze age or even later.

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/10/assessment-of-ancient-european-dna-with.html

The Mediterranean component is hardly unified, it includes neolithic populations, but its not neolithic exclusive (its dominant in some Bronze/Iron age populations aswell). West Asian/Caucasian component however, is more or less pure neolithic. Basques do actually lack this component, aswell as they lack neolithic haplogroups (G2a, etc.) Furthemore, they do have a significant amount of mtDNA haplogroup U (in Lapurdi and Benafarroa it exceeds 30%), which is exclusive for paleolithic Europeans.

http://www.aranzadi-zientziak.org/fileadmin/docs/Munibe/1988169177.pdf

[Prisoner Of Ice]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?136784-H-mtdna-comes-from-Iberia

Well, H did not come from outside europe. So looks like r1b did not, either.

[Comte Arnau]

The first mistake is thinking that Basques have always lived where they live now, when it's far more likely than they were pushed only 2,000 years ago from south-western France into their modern habitat upon a Celtic population.

[Damião de Góis]

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2240/q1is.png

French 0,311 of WHG
Basque 0,293 of WHG
Spain 0,068 of WHG

Of course many depends on a sampling but I don't know why Spanish sample is so low in WHG component. Gradient clearly goes in the Northern-Northeastern direction.

Something isn't right with the spanish numbers on that table. They should score closer to this:

EEF 68,2078493851
WHG 21,541343218
ANE 10,2508073969

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The first mistake is thinking that Basques have always lived where they live now, when it's far more likely than they were pushed only 2,000 years ago from south-western France into their modern habitat upon a Celtic population.

If that were the case we would know it historically, and the basque population has absolutely no G y-dna which makes this scenario completely impossible. G shows up very early and in large numbers in neolithic and is around today all over france, especially this southern area. So this means Basques have been there a very long time.

[Artek]

If that were the case we would know it historically, and the basque population has absolutely no G y-dna which makes this scenario completely impossible. G shows up very early and in large numbers in neolithic and is around today all over france, especially this southern area. So this means Basques have been there a very long time.
Not longer than counting from a late neolithic/copper age, since their R1b can't be older than that period. Still impressive.

[Empecinado]

Basques moved to the Basque country "recently", after the Roman empire fall. Originally Basques lived only in Navarra:

http://www.navarraconfidencial.com/images/navarra2.gif

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Not longer than counting from a late neolithic/copper age, since their R1b can't be older than that period.

Why, just because that is the oldest found? If it is "TMRCA" ignore that. The TMRCA for e1b ev13 is very short as well, but it's been found in samples twice as old as the TMRCA.

[Comte Arnau]

At least linguistically, the Aquitanian (=Old Basque) area was SW France (A1) and Navarre (A2) indeed. Too many things point to the modern Basque Country being Celtic-speaking before the Romans, and probably underwent a long period of Basco-Celtic mixing both in genes and culture during the Roman expansion and the first centuries AD.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Prehispanic_languages.gif

[Prisoner Of Ice]

At least linguistically, the Aquitanian (=Old Basque) area was SW France (A1) and Navarre (A2) indeed. Too many things point to the modern Basque Country being Celtic-speaking before the Romans, and probably underwent a long period of Basco-Celtic mixing both in genes and culture during the Roman expansion and the first centuries AD.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Prehispanic_languages.gif

What you're saying is not relavent. We know that basques moved there in recent times but they have been in what used to be aragon much longer. That is also where the r1b peaks out not in galicia. Like I said if they came from france for sure there'd be G y-dna in them but there's not. So they go back to the area at least 7k years.

[Artek]

Why, just because that is the oldest found? If it is "TMRCA" ignore that. The TMRCA for e1b ev13 is very short as well, but it's been found in samples twice as old as the TMRCA.
I operate with phylogeny and SNP-counting based on y-chromosome sequencing, not on usual TMRCA method based on 12 y-STR markers as most theses do.
The latter gives either unusually young (as you said) or old results(example of an R1a-M458 as calculated by Underhill), the former is consistent with aDNA data that is obtained so far and archeology(if applicable - like the calculated age of R1a-Z282 corresponds to the rise of a Corded Ware culture).

[Comte Arnau]

What you're saying is not relavent.

It is relevant from the moment people have traditionally considered Basque speakers as having lived in the modern Basque Country since who knows when. That may make "Basque" samples in genetic studies not that relevant after all.


We know that basques moved there in recent times but they have been in what used to be aragon much longer. That is also where the r1b peaks out not in galicia. Like I said if they came from france for sure there'd be G y-dna in them but there's not. So they go back to the area at least 7k years.

In Aragon? Based on?

[Empecinado]

It is relevant from the moment people have traditionally considered Basque speakers as having lived in the modern Basque Country since who knows when. That may make "Basque" samples in genetic studies not that relevant after all.


That's why I think Navarros are more pure Basques than Basques.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I operate with phylogeny and SNP-counting based on y-chromosome sequencing, not on usual TMRCA method based on 12 y-STR markers as most theses do.
The latter gives either unusually young (as you said) or old results(example of an R1a-M458 as calculated by Underhill), the former is consistent with aDNA data that is obtained so far and archeology(if applicable - like the calculated age of R1a-Z282 corresponds to the rise of a Corded Ware culture).

There's no way to know for sure selection is not throwing results off. Especially stabilizing selection which could keep something the same almost indefinitely.

Regardless of the age of r1b itself it would seem that it spread out from Iberia almost for sure and therefore its predecessor must have been there, too. Which only makes sense as R0 is found in north american natives.