Were Indo-Europeans All Fair Pigmented Prior To Mixing With Neolithic Euros, Meds and Indids?

[Anglojew]

It is my belief that the original Indo-Europeans were mainly Nordid-types (tall with blonde or re hair and blue or green eyes) but upon migrating into Europe they mixed with Neolithic European and Mediterranean types and Indids and other types upon migrating into Persia and the Sub-Continent.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/IE_expansion.png

Surviving evidence, such as the Tarim mummies, and ancient accounts of contacts with Indo-European people confirms this with;


...old Chinese books that describe historical or legendary figures of great height, with deep-set blue or green eyes, long noses, full beards, and red or blond hair. Scholars have traditionally scoffed at these accounts, but it now seems that they may be accurate

By this time Latins and other Indo-Europeans had already intermarried with indiginous Med types so that Pliny the Elder (, Chap XXIV "Taprobane") reports a curious description of the Seres (in the territories of northwestern China) made by an embassy from Taprobane (Ceylon) to Emperor Claudius, saying that they "exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes, and made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking".

The mummified man in the photo below shows Nordid features and was 2 metres tall

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/goldilocks1.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies

[GrebluBro]

They all looked fair-skinned Persians..

Those who moved north-West became paler and those who went south-east became darker

[d3cimat3d]

It is my belief that the original Indo-Europeans were mainly Nordid-types (tall with blonde hair and blue-eyes)

Nope

Dark pigmentation of Eneolithic and Bronze Age kurgan groups from eastern Europe (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/03/dark-pigmentation-of-eneolithic-and.html)

[Anglojew]

It is my belief that the original Indo-Europeans were mainly Nordid-types (tall with blonde hair and blue-eyes) but upon migrating into Europe they mixed with Neolithic European and Mediterranean types and Indids and other types upon migrating into Persia and the Sub-Continent.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/IE_expansion.png

Surviving evidence, such as the Tarim mummies, and ancient accounts of contacts with Indo-European people confirms this with;



By the Classical Age Latins and other Indo-Europeans had already intermarried with indiginous Med types so that Pliny the Elder (, Chap XXIV "Taprobane") reports a curious description of the Seres (in the territories of northwestern China) made by an embassy from Taprobane (Ceylon) to Emperor Claudius, saying that they "exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes, and made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking".

The mummified man in the photo below shows Nordid features and was 2 metres tall

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/goldilocks1.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies

[Anglojew]

They all looked fair-skinned Persians..

Those who moved north-West became paler and those who went south-east became darker

For evidence for this?

[Anglojew]

Nope

Dark pigmentation of Eneolithic and Bronze Age kurgan groups from eastern Europe (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/03/dark-pigmentation-of-eneolithic-and.html)

Clearly Neolithic types.

[GrebluBro]

For evidence for this?

West Asians genes domination

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118386-Did-Europeans-migrate-to-Central-Asia-Scythia-Pasthun-got-more-Western-Euro-gene-than-Eastern-Euro

[d3cimat3d]

Clearly Neolithic types.

Yeah, but doesn't that go against your theory they were all Nords?

BTW it's not for certain that they (Yamna/Kurgan culture) were dark because they were Neolithic types, but instead the title of the paper suggests they just sexually selected light eyes and hair very rapidly.

Direct evidence for positive selection of skin, hair, and eye pigmentation in Europeans during the last 5,000 years (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/03/05/1316513111.abstract)

[Anglojew]

West Asians genes domination

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118386-Did-Europeans-migrate-to-Central-Asia-Scythia-Pasthun-got-more-Western-Euro-gene-than-Eastern-Euro

Yes because they mixed with them upon migrating there.

[Shah-Jehan]

West Asians genes domination

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118386-Did-Europeans-migrate-to-Central-Asia-Scythia-Pasthun-got-more-Western-Euro-gene-than-Eastern-Euro

Idiotic post. West Asian isn't a particular component that "woggifies" you. You do know that the component peeks in Transcausian populations like Georgians right? They are not what I'd call particularly dark.

[Anglojew]

Yeah, but doesn't that go against your theory they were all Nords?

BTW it's not for certain that they (Yamna/Kurgan culture) were dark because they were Neolithic types, but instead the title of the paper suggests they just sexually selected light eyes and hair very rapidly.

Direct evidence for positive selection of skin, hair, and eye pigmentation in Europeans during the last 5,000 years (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/03/05/1316513111.abstract)

It's only a hypothesis the Kurgans were IEs. Even the article states this contradicts contemporary descriptions of the Scythians. The sexual selection probably meant Indo-Euros were more successful than Paleo-types.

[Shah-Jehan]

It's only a hypothesis the Kurgans were IEs. Even the article states this contradicts contemporary descriptions of the Scythians. The sexual selection probably meant Indo-Euros were more successful than Paleo-types.
This is how Scythians depicted themselves (Pazyryk carpet), any blonde people?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/PazyrikHorseman.JPG
The other more detailed descriptions of them are from artifacts, most of which are in gold and there is no valid way in knowing their hair and eye colour (basic pigmentation) from these artifacts. Sure, maybe the ancient Greeks described them as well but, I'd take words of them with a grain of salt and rather focus on Scythian descriptions of themselves. Even the modern reconstruction of Scythians shows a Turanid/Europo-Mongoloid phenotype and not Nordid. Ossetians/Alanians are the only fully legitimate descendants of them in all aspects, language, culture etc and they would normally be taken as "churka" in Russia, a term akin to "nigger" in the US.

[d3cimat3d]

It's only a hypothesis the Kurgans were IEs. Even the article states this contradicts contemporary descriptions of the Scythians. The sexual selection probably meant Indo-Euros were more successful than Paleo-types.

Scythians =/= PIE's.... They are separated by 2,500 years of time.

By the way:

Meta-Ethnicity: Ashkenazi (Scythian/Khazar/Gothic/Judean hybrid)

^I laughed my ass off at this.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

It's only a hypothesis the Kurgans were IEs. Even the article states this contradicts contemporary descriptions of the Scythians. The sexual selection probably meant Indo-Euros were more successful than Paleo-types.

What if Indo-Europeans descend from Paleo-types!?

Lithuanians speak the most archaic & pure Indo-European language & also have the most pure, North-East-Baltic genetics.

Actually Lithuanians are a lot like La Brana-1 the Mesolithic European from Iberia!

Of course Indo-Europeans are more successful they dominated Eurasia!

[Anglojew]

Scythians =/= PIE's.... They are separated by 2,500 years of time.

By the way:

Meta-Ethnicity: Ashkenazi (Scythian/Khazar/Gothic/Judean hybrid)



^I laughed my ass off at this.

Yes, I was considering writing proto-IE

My theory;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?74375-Are-Ashkenazi-Jews-A-Lost-East-Gothic-Tribe

[Anglojew]

What if Indo-Europeans were Paleo-types!?

It doesn't match ancient descriptions and other evidence such as the upper-classes retaining fair pigmentation well into the classical era in both Southern Europe and Indo-Persia.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

It doesn't match ancient descriptions and other evidence such as the upper-classes retaining fair pigmentation well into the classical era in both Southern Europe and Indo-Persia.

Why can't light features in Europe come from Mesolithic-Paleolithic DNA!?

I mean it is most common in Northern Europe where more Mesolithic-Paleolithic DNA is present!

[Hong Key]

Why can't light features in Europe come from Mesolithic-Paleolithic DNA!?

I mean it is most common in Northern Europe where more Mesolithic-Paleolithic DNA is present!

cro magnons were dark or light?

[SobieskisavedEurope]

cro magnons were dark or light?

The closest population to Cro Magnon the Finns are also the most blonde Europeans while the closely related Estonians are the most blue eyed Europeans.

[Anglojew]

This is how Scythians depicted themselves (Pazyryk carpet), any blonde people?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/PazyrikHorseman.JPG
The other more detailed descriptions of them are from artifacts, most of which are in gold and there is no valid way in knowing their hair and eye colour (basic pigmentation) from these artifacts. Sure, maybe the ancient Greeks described them as well but, I'd take words of them with a grain of salt and rather focus on Scythian descriptions of themselves. Even the modern reconstruction of Scythians shows a Turanid/Europo-Mongoloid phenotype and not Nordid. Ossetians/Alanians are the only fully legitimate descendants of them in all aspects, language, culture etc and they would normally be taken as "churka" in Russia, a term akin to "nigger" in the US.



Except the Pazyryks were already admixed with Turks or Turkic themselves;


Thus, this people not only shared the same culture (Pazyryk), but also shared the same genetic east-west population admixture. In turn, Pazyryks appear to have a similar gene pool that current Altaians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_culture


The Altay or Altai are a Turkic people living in the Siberian Altai Republic and Altai Krai. For alternative ethnonyms see also Teleut, Tele, Telengit, Mountain Kalmuck, White Kalmuck, Black Tatar, Oirot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaians

[Äijä]

It is my belief that the original Indo-Europeans were mainly Nordid-types (tall with blonde hair and blue-eyes) but upon migrating into Europe they mixed with Neolithic European and Mediterranean types and Indids and other types upon migrating into Persia and the Sub-Continent.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/IE_expansion.png

Surviving evidence, such as the Tarim mummies, and ancient accounts of contacts with Indo-European people confirms this with;



By this time Latins and other Indo-Europeans had already intermarried with indiginous Med types so that
Pliny the Elder (, Chap XXIV "Taprobane") reports a curious description of the Seres (in the territories of northwestern China) made by an embassy from Taprobane (Ceylon) to Emperor Claudius, saying that they "exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes, and made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking".

The mummified man in the photo below shows Nordid features and was 2 metres tall

http://www.meshrep.com/PicOfDay/mummies/goldilocks1.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies

Scandinavian and Finnish folklore tells about the frost giants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunn

Also stories about the sons of Kaleva are same type of stories told in Finland and Estonia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevipoeg

[Shah-Jehan]

Except the Pazyryks were already admixed with Turks or Turkic themselves;



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazyryk_culture



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaians

That's the point, Scythians were a large nomadic tribe and they have had different phenotypes among them and it is inconclusive on what the majority of them looked like. Why do you identify with Scythians anyway? Scythians would call themselves Saka anyway.

[Anglojew]

Why can't light features in Europe come from Mesolithic-Paleolithic DNA!?

I mean it is most common in Northern Europe where more Mesolithic-Paleolithic DNA is present!

That's a very good point. I would say that the paleo-types in Scandinavia (similar to North-Atlantid) have almost been diluted by Indo-Europeans (and/or genetic mutation due to environment or sexual selection) but some still exist. A good example of this Paleo-type is NATO Secretary General and former Prime Minister of Denmark Anders Rasmussen

http://news.medill.northwestern.edu/uploadedImages/News/Chicago/Images/Urban/2009_11_D34F22C9AE854B7FAA0BB409A21C90D3_090801-SG-002_rdax_600x399.jpg

[Anglojew]

cro magnons were dark or light?

Light.

http://futbolerosmx.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/ok.jpg

[Anglojew]

That's the point, Scythians were a large nomadic tribe and they have had different phenotypes among them and it is inconclusive on what the majority of them looked like. Why do you identify with Scythians anyway? Scythians would call themselves Saka anyway.

True. The Scythians intermarried with Turkic peoples.

It seems my direct paternal line were Scythians who became the Khazar royalty;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118652-Upstream-Jewish-(And-Other-Eurasian)-YDNA-Haplogroup-Q-Now-Confirmed-As-Indo-European-(Scythian)

[Anglojew]

Scandinavian and Finnish folklore tells about the frost giants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B6tunn

Also stories about the sons of Kaleva are same type of stories told in Finland and Estonia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevipoeg

Do you think they were a different race?

[Kamal900]

Do you think they were a different race?

I think that the Scythians would have a variety of phenotypes, depending on where they settle of course. I remember reading Herodotus on how he compared the scythians to Egyptians(much like how he, along with Strabo, compared the egyptians to the aryans living in northern india). As for the whole indo-european story, people should remember that indo-european =/= aryan. Aryan languages are a sister group to other indo-european languages, not the parent. The whole Aryan myth started by Arthur(forgot his last name) which the Nazis picked it up.

"As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians. "

Strabo confirms in Geography 15.1.13, in almost identical wording

"The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically."

Arrian (Indica 6.9)

[Äijä]

Do you think they were a different race?

If the stories go way back in time then they could be some ubermench hyprid from the mammoth steppe. :D

I think our stories go to the bronze age and early iron age when baltic finnic and germanic settlers started to arrive in present day Finland, the paleos where still there.

That is why Finns have and Sami even more of the paleo genes.

[Anglojew]

I think that the Scythians would have a variety of phenotypes, depending on where they settle of course. I remember reading Herodotus on how he compared the scythians to Egyptians(much like how he, along with Strabo, compared the egyptians to the aryans living in northern india). As for the whole indo-european story, people should remember that indo-european =/= aryan. Aryan languages are a sister group to other indo-european languages, not the parent. The whole Aryan myth started by Arthur(forgot his last name) which the Nazis picked it up.

"As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians. "

Strabo confirms in Geography 15.1.13, in almost identical wording

"The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically."

Arrian (Indica 6.9)

They had already intermarried for 1000-2000 years by the time Strabo describes this and the difference in phenotype between north and south is a direct result in this admixture.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_de_Gobineau

I think you're referring to?

[Kamal900]

They had already intermarried for 1000-2000 years by the time Strabo describes this and the difference in phenotype between north and south is a direct result in this admixture.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_de_Gobineau

I think you're referring to?

Yes, thats the guy.

I certainly dont believe that the Aryans(Indo-Iranians) were somehow a super nordic race or anything like that. There are genetic and archeological evidence that the migration was small and non-continuous, and most likely that the modern indo-aryan peoples came from assimilated indigenous peoples(much like how the Irish trace their ancestry from the neolithic period that lived in Ireland for over 10,000 years, not from the celts). The Aryans themselves wouldn't have been pure either. Apart from R1b haplogroup, J2a and other west-Asian haplogroups are commonly found in many Iranian peoples and western Indians. The whole Aryan myth is got to stop. Hell, the Pashtun people can trace their genetic ancestry long before any Aryan migration in what is now Afghanistan.

"MDS and Barrier analysis have identified a significant affinity between Pashtun, Tajik, North Indian, and West Indian populations, creating an Afghan-Indian population structure that excludes the Hazaras, Uzbeks, and the South Indian Dravidian speakers. In addition, gene flow to Afghanistan from India marked by Indian lineages, L-M20, H-M69, and R2a-M124, also seems to mostly involve Pashtuns and Tajiks. This genetic affinity and gene flow suggests interactions that could have existed since at least the establishment of the region's first civilizations at the Indus Valley and the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex."

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288

[aherne]

They were not. No population in past or present has ever been all fair pigmented. Most "Nordids" today are brown haired as adults...

[Anglojew]

They were not. No population in past or present has ever been all fair pigmented. Most "Nordids" today are brown haired as adults...

Yes, due to admixture from Paleo-Europeans and others.

[Not a Cop]

They were not. No population in past or present has ever been all fair pigmented. Most "Nordids" today are brown haired as adults...

Generally yes, but in some parts of Finland dark-blodne hair dominates

[aherne]

Generally yes, but in some parts of Finland dark-blodne hair dominates

Among Germanics, Aryan-based types have a very high incidence of blond hair in adults, but this is due to admixture rather than common inheritance. Common inheritance ranges between brown and golden shades: see East Nordid or Keltic Nordid.

[McCauley]

Indo-Europeans were Nordid.