Do most Germans have Jewish ancestors?

[JQP4545]

It seems like most Spaniards have Sephardic ancestors. I was just wondering if you thought most Germans have Ashkenazi ancestors?

[portusaus]

No, nor do most Spaniards have Sephardic ancestors.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I would guess not so much most but all at this point. Especially after WW II probably wiped out a lot of the unmixed ones. I imagine almost everyone in europe has some small jewish mixture.

[JQP4545]

No, nor do most Spaniards have Sephardic ancestors.

According to Doug McDonald's analysis it seems like practically every Hispanic has Sephardic ancestors.

[JQP4545]

I would guess not so much most but all at this point. Especially after WW II probably wiped out a lot of the unmixed ones. I imagine almost everyone in europe has some small jewish mixture.

It seems like on Doug McDonald's analysis a lot of Southern Germans get some Jewish ancestry. I wasn't sure if this is because so many people converted during the Middle Ages or because of some genetic similarity with Southern Europeans.

[Neon Knight]

Given that Jews settled in many European cities it could be true for other countries as well. On the other hand, the Jewish DNA could be such a small quantity that it has been diluted away in most people.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It seems like on Doug McDonald's analysis a lot of Southern Germans get some Jewish ancestry. I wasn't sure if this is because so many people converted during the Middle Ages or because of some genetic similarity with Southern Europeans.

Brachycephaly in europeans is probably mostly due to jewish mixture. 80% of time if someone says alpinid (and they seen to have no idea what real alpinid looks like) it's jewish admixture.

Jews have been mixing into europe for a very long time, and they have been city dwellers longer than most europeans which gave them an advantage when societies were urbanizing.

[Germaniac]

15% of Spaniards have Sephardi ancestors, and I think less that 5% of Germans have Jewish ancestry...might have been more, but many went out of Germany or perished during WW2.

[Beit El]

Seriously doubt it. Jews always stick together, I doubt intermarriage was common especially if there was no conversion.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

15% of Spaniards have Sephardi ancestors, and I think less that 5% of Germans have Jewish ancestry...might have been more, but many went out of Germany or perished during WW2.

Reference populations are all defined, though. We dont really know the origins of most genes. Ones that are thoroughly mixed in can't be detected. So when you see high early european farmer content, that is probably basically same thing in many cases.

[Insuperable]

According to Doug McDonald's analysis it seems like practically every Hispanic has Sephardic ancestors.

Why are Hispanics a benchmark when it comes this and not Spaniards themselves? What does Doug say specifically about them?

[JQP4545]

Seriously doubt it. Jews always stick together, I doubt intermarriage was common especially if there was no conversion.

50% of Jews in America marry outside their religion. 3-4% of people who test with 23andMe who consider themselves fully white have African ancestry (greater than .5%). Mixing is more common than you think...

[JQP4545]

Why are Hispanics a benchmark when it comes this and not Spaniards themselves? What does Doug say specifically about them?

I didn't ask him personally, I'm just looking at people who have tested with him who are Hispanic and its seems like there are many who have Sephardic ancestry.

[Beit El]

50% of Jews in America marry outside their religion. 3-4% of people who test with 23andMe who consider themselves fully white have African ancestry (greater than .5%). Mixing is more common than you think...

Well that's America for you. From the experience I have with Jews in Europe they seem to be obsessed with marrying other Jews.

Anyway, what about Y-dna? As far as I know most Germans have native Y-dna. If most Germans did have Jewish ancestry it would mean that the Jewish paternal lines either died out or all the intermarriages were Jewish women-German men, right? Both of those scenarios seem somewhat unlikely to me.

[JQP4545]

Well that's America for you. From the experience I have with Jews in Europe they seem to be obsessed with marrying other Jews.

Anyway, what about Y-dna? As far as I know most Germans have native Y-dna. If most Germans did have Jewish ancestry it would mean that the Jewish paternal lines either died out or all the intermarriages were Jewish women-German men, right? Both of those scenarios seem somewhat unlikely to me.

Haplogroups E, J, and G are fairly common in Southern Germany.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

There's not really brachycephaly in the archaeological record of europe. It doesn't show up til the middle ages. Some of that is swiss immigration to rest of europe because swiss were rich but short of land, but I think most of it is jewish genes taking hold.

[Beit El]

Haplogroups E, J, and G are fairly common in Southern Germany.

Then what's with the 'most Germans'? Northern Germany contains about 60% of the German population if I remember correctly, add that in the south not all have those Haplogroups and we're looking at less than even 40%. Not 'most' by far.

[JQP4545]

Then what's with the 'most Germans'? Northern Germany contains about 60% of the German population if I remember correctly, add that in the south not all have those Haplogroups and we're looking at way less than even 40%. Not 'most' by far.

I'm not saying "are most Germans fully Jewish", I'm saying do most have some distant Jewish ancestors? Lets say 10% of their DNA. That means 10% of haplogroups. Actually forget "most Germans" and lets just say most Germans from the Rhine and south of the Main as many communities were along the Rhine and Main rivers.

[Beit El]

I'm not saying "are most Germans fully Jewish", I'm saying do most have some distant Jewish ancestors? Lets say 10% of their DNA. That means 10% of haplogroups. Actually forget "most Germans" and lets just say most Germans from the Rhine and south of the Main as many communities were along the Rhine and Main rivers.

If there's Jewish ancestry you'd assume the paternal admixture to be about as much as the maternal admixture, right? So if the majority of Germans don't have a haplogroup associated with Jews, then the majority of Germans are likely to have no Jewish admixture at all unless the male Jew vs female Jew intermarriage ratio was completely off towards female Jews marrying non-Jews. Or unless specifically all the Jewish lines died out without offspring or just female offspring, which seems equally unlikely.

I guess you could argue this away with the fact that Judaism is matrilinial and perhaps therefore non-Jewish fathers-Jewish mothers marriages were more accepted than non-Jewish mother marriages, but that too seems to be a wild assumption to me.

[JQP4545]

If there's Jewish ancestry you'd assume the paternal admixture to be about as much as the maternal admixture, right? So if the majority of Germans don't have a haplogroup associated with Jews, then the majority of Germans are likely to have no Jewish admixture at all unless the male Jew vs female Jew intermarriage ratio was completely off towards female Jews marrying non-Jews. Or unless specifically all the Jewish lines died out without offspring or just female offspring, which seems equally unlikely.

If 10% of haplogroups are Jewish then the German gene pool is 10% Jewish...meaning the average German would be 10% Jewish...

[JQP4545]

^^^For example.

[Beit El]

If 10% of haplogroups are Jewish then the German gene pool is 10% Jewish...meaning the average German would be 10% Jewish...

Yes but,
1. It seems to be bound to location
2. Are 10% of the haplogroups really Jewish?
And 3. What about the median German, not the average German?

[Loki]

Not mine, mine left the Low Countries before 1700 already.

[JQP4545]

Yes but,
1. It seems to be bound to location
2. Are 10% of the haplogroups really Jewish?
And 3. What about the median German, not the average German?

I was just giving 10% as an example. My mom is on paper 50% Wurttemberg German, 37.5% Irish, and 12.5% French Canadian. Professor McDonald gave her:


Most likely fit is 90.3% (+- 2.1%) Europe (various subcontinents)

and 9.7% (+- 2.1%) Mideast (various subcontinents)



The following are possible population sets and their fractions,

most likely at the top

English= 0.900 Jewish= 0.100 or

English= 0.922 Armenian= 0.078 or

English= 0.911 Sephardic= 0.089 or

English= 0.915 Cypriot= 0.085 or

Germany= 0.877 Sephardic= 0.123 or

English= 0.932 Druze= 0.068 or

Germany= 0.863 Jewish= 0.137 or

English= 0.918 Georgian= 0.082 or

Germany= 0.885 Cypriot= 0.115 or

Germany= 0.906 Druze= 0.094

So I was just wondering does this just reflect the German average? I can't find any Jewish ancestors either through genetics or paper trail.

[JQP4545]

I've noticed some other Germans from Wurttemberg getting similar results.

[kabeiros]

There's not really brachycephaly in the archaeological record of europe. It doesn't show up til the middle ages. Some of that is swiss immigration to rest of europe because swiss were rich but short of land, but I think most of it is jewish genes taking hold. The greatest Germans (Leibniz, Wagner, Schopenhauer, Kant) were brachycephalic, like modern Germans

[Chichic]

Why should they? Germans have a very anti-semitic history and past. Jews have always been despised, hated and isolated in ghettos by Germans. Germany had even death penalty on sexual contact with Jews in the middle ages. It was not always as liberal and apathetic as you know the americanized Germany of today.

[Cleitus]

Brachycephaly in europeans is probably mostly due to jewish mixture. 80% of time if someone says alpinid (and they seen to have no idea what real alpinid looks like) it's jewish admixture.

Jews have been mixing into europe for a very long time, and they have been city dwellers longer than most europeans which gave them an advantage when societies were urbanizing.
Jews were originally Doliocephalic Semites. Borrebys are Jews ? :D

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Jews were originally Doliocephalic Semites,

Nope, here is a fantasy story. Jewish Q and r1a is original to them. The J and other semite crap was not native to mesopotamia.



a fantasy story from you again. Borrebys are Jews ? :D

Borrebies have not been expanding, brachycephaly has, and borrebies are mesocephalic like brunn.

[Cleitus]

Nope, here is a fantasy story. Jewish Q and r1a is original to them. The J and other semite crap was not native to mesopotamia.



Borrebies have not been expanding, brachycephaly has, and borrebies are mesocephalic like brunn.
No they are not :picard1: Brunns and Borrebys are both Brachycephalic, you always make such ridicoulos claims.

[Cleitus]

In the same districts of southern Sweden where Brunn survivors are found, and across the Skaggerrak in Jutland, are found brachycephalic Upper Palaeolithic survivors, equally unreduced in head and body size, equally if not more lateral in bodily build. The ancestors of, these people arrived on the western Baltic shores during the Late Mesolithic. Other colonies of them are to be found in the coastal districts of south- western Norway, and they form an element of primary importance in the population of Germany. In general, their present distribution is wider than that of their dolicho- cephalic counterparts.

http://www.humanbiologicaldiversity.com/Photos/Coon%20Plate%205.jpg

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Brachycephaly in europeans is probably mostly due to jewish mixture. 80% of time if someone says alpinid (and they seen to have no idea what real alpinid looks like) it's jewish admixture.

Jews have been mixing into europe for a very long time, and they have been city dwellers longer than most europeans which gave them an advantage when societies were urbanizing.

The Saami are brachycephalic & have had almost no contact with Jews at all.

Saami are also have one of the most paleolithic DNA in Europe!

So it suggests that brachycephaly is a European characteristic.

Brachycephalic skulls retain heat & thus are good for the arctic,

With that said I think dolichocephalic skulls in Europe are more questionable.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Why are Hispanics a benchmark when it comes this and not Spaniards themselves? What does Doug say specifically about them?

Because a lot of Sephardic Jews fled Spain to America from the Spanish Inquistion & onward.

The Cohanim marker is particularly high in New Mexico Hispanics!

[Cleitus]

The Saami are brachycephalic & have had almost no contact with Jews at all.

Saami are also have one of the most paleolithic DNA in Europe!

So it suggests that brachycephaly is a European characteristic.

Brachycephalic skulls retain heat & thus are good for the arctic,

With that said I think dolichocephalic skulls in Europe are more questionable.

Samis are continental European but not Aryan.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

In the same districts of southern Sweden where Brunn survivors are found, and across the Skaggerrak in Jutland, are found brachycephalic Upper Palaeolithic survivors, equally unreduced in head and body size, equally if not more lateral in bodily build. The ancestors of, these people arrived on the western Baltic shores during the Late Mesolithic. Other colonies of them are to be found in the coastal districts of south- western Norway, and they form an element of primary importance in the population of Germany. In general, their present distribution is wider than that of their dolicho- cephalic counterparts.

http://www.humanbiologicaldiversity.com/Photos/Coon%20Plate%205.jpg

Yeah, I know there's always been SOME brachy but there's about 30% brunn or borreby influence max in any country. However, there is massive 'alpinization' all over europe. Starting right around the time jews show up - what a coincidence.

Like I said some of that is real alpinization because of swiss mercenaries. Not all of it is.

You can't really separate out mixed populations with no references, so it's impossible to really figure out which genes are jewish and european, but the way that collapsing ancestors work eventually everyone is ancestral to a whole population or to no one.

Basically all of continental europe is descended from charlegmagne for example, and he was part moor. Same thing promulgates that's why even the most british people only score 80-90% on british specific alleles. The whole race has been redefined to some extent.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

No they are not :picard1: Brunns and Borrebys are both Brachycephalic, you always make such ridicoulos claims.

No, brunns are not brachy, they are meso. I just read coon's description of irish for thousandth time to make sure. Cranial index of 80 is average for Ireland. I am pretty sure borreby are meso as well, if they are brachy it's only slight. Dinaric brachies exist but most of that probably comes from jews, too. They were only a tiny remnant in europe until recently.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

No, nor do most Spaniards have Sephardic ancestors.

This. No. this is all propaganda Bs.

[Anglojew]

Depends on the region I'd say.

[Wolf]

It seems like most Spaniards have Sephardic ancestors. I was just wondering if you thought most Germans have Ashkenazi ancestors?

Probably not, but considering the fact that Jews have lived in today's Germany since Roman times, who knows?

[Neon Knight]

It boils down to how far back in time you want to go to find your racial identitiy. 500 years? 1000? 2000? At some point it loses meaning.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The Saami are brachycephalic & have had almost no contact with Jews at all.

Saami are also have one of the most paleolithic DNA in Europe!

So it suggests that brachycephaly is a European characteristic.

Brachycephalic skulls retain heat & thus are good for the arctic,

With that said I think dolichocephalic skulls in Europe are more questionable.

Saami are asiatic, which is brachy. That is not where europe gets its increase in brachiness however.

[Artek]

Brachycephaly in europeans is probably mostly due to jewish mixture. 80% of time if someone says alpinid (and they seen to have no idea what real alpinid looks like) it's jewish admixture.
So many hunters-gatherers and Bell-Beakers were jewish? Just think a little bit.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

So many hunters-gatherers and Bell-Beakers were jewish? Just think a little bit.

Bell beakers were related to modern jews in phenotype and came from middle east, but they got wiped out.

The brachy hunter gatherers and dinaric brachies were an extreme minority til very recently in history, as I already said. Coon talks about this a little bit, though he does not state the obvious.

[Argang]

Bell beakers were related to modern jews in phenotype and came from middle east, but they got wiped out.

The brachy hunter gatherers and dinaric brachies were an extreme minority til very recently in history, as I already said. Coon talks about this a little bit, though he does not state the obvious.

However those old timey physical anthropologists aren't the best source on European genetics and their changes over the ages. Coon for example suggested Saami diverged from some western siberian refuge and are recent arrivals (as a whole body). He also said that we thus shouldn't look their relatives from the stone age Scandinavian remains, but now that we can look at the genetics we see that they are extremely related to West European mesolithic hunter gatherers like La Braña, and possibly more related to those stone age Scandinavian remains than anyone else is. They have more genomewide similarity with even modern West Europeans (exclusing those south of the French) than berbers or arabs have.

Like with neanderthal influences in Europe, genetic studies are the highest authority by far here.

[Anglojew]

So many hunters-gatherers and Bell-Beakers were jewish? Just think a little bit.

Jews are close to Early European Farmers

http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/eef-whg-ane-test-for-europeans.html?m=1

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2240/q1is.png

[Cleitus]

Yeah, I know there's always been SOME brachy but there's about 30% brunn or borreby influence max in any country. However, there is massive 'alpinization' all over europe. Starting right around the time jews show up - what a coincidence.

Like I said some of that is real alpinization because of swiss mercenaries. Not all of it is.

You can't really separate out mixed populations with no references, so it's impossible to really figure out which genes are jewish and european, but the way that collapsing ancestors work eventually everyone is ancestral to a whole population or to no one.

Basically all of continental europe is descended from charlegmagne for example, and he was part moor. Same thing promulgates that's why even the most british people only score 80-90% on british specific alleles. The whole race has been redefined to some extent.
There were no Jews in the Balkans (except Greece) AND THE balkans are mostly brachycephalic, your theory is pathetic, there is not evidence for any strong influence of Jewish genes in europe however Negroes and Semitics are also doliocephalic.

[Sehnsucht]

Recently, no.

Distantly, yes.

[zhaoyun]

Do most Germans have Jewish ancestors?

Not if they know whats good for them.

[Artek]

Brachycephalism is probably an adaptation since cranial index is quite plastic and depends on many factors as well. I don't have time to search for a certain thesis but I read once, that CI can change without any genetic drift due to the environmental factors.

Neolithic farmers were dolichocephal and mesocephal (Otzi was mesocephal), brachycephaly started to appear later. We can't explain it in that way as you do, Melonhead. Argang proved that you were talking nonsense about "asiatic" character of Saami.

And please remember that some Bell Beakers were proven to be R1b(probably L11 or L51). Have you forgotten that?

[JQP4545]

Jews are close to Early European Farmers

http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/eef-whg-ane-test-for-europeans.html?m=1

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2240/q1is.png

This makes sense. I believe agriculture spread from Anatolia so the early farmers would be similar to Armenians, Jews, and Tuscans.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

There were no Jews in the Balkans (except Greece) AND THE balkans are mostly brachycephalic, your theory is pathetic, there is not evidence for any strong influence of Jewish genes in europe however Negroes and Semitics are also doliocephalic.

I never said all brachy comes from jews. Asians are brachy, too, so ottomans brought a lot. Dinaric brachis are ancient in europe. But greeks are usually super doli for example.

mongols brought some to europe, too, but it has gone from very low levels to very high in the last 1000 years. Mostly in places high in jews.