Genetic Map for Western Europe

[Neon Knight]

This is from the People of the British Isles project (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/Royal%20Society%20exhibit%20Jul%202012d.pdf). Each number is a different type of DNA:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/EuropeanGeneticPie-Charts_zps5dd80959.jpg

It pretty much dispels the idea of a single Germanic race, given all the variety.

[Beit El]

This is from the People of the British Isles project (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/Royal%20Society%20exhibit%20Jul%202012d.pdf). Each number is a different type of DNA:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/EuropeanGeneticPie-Charts_zps5dd80959.jpg

It pretty much dispels the idea of a single Germanic race, given all the variety.

What regions are you counting as Germanic?

[Atlantean]

....

So according to this, Germans are closer to Italians than Swedes are to Norweigans?
Or the colour brightness has nothing to do with it?

[Argang]

There are 15 different clusters in "germanic" areas.
Norway and Sweden both have 5(!)
Denmark, Germany and the Low Countries have five clusters between them.

In other regions:
One Irish cluster
Five Finnish clusters
One Iberian cluster
Two Italian clusters (Northern and Southern)
Two French clusters
One Polish cluster

Cluster 1 @ Norwegian arctic coast seems to be a Saami cluster

[Beit El]

There are 15 different clusters in "germanic" areas.
Norway and Sweden both have 5(!)
Denmark, Germany and the Low Countries have five clusters between them.

In other regions:
One Irish cluster
Five Finnish clusters
One Iberian cluster
Two Italian clusters (Northern and Southern)
Two French clusters
One Polish cluster

Cluster 1 @ Norwegian arctic coast seems to be a Saami cluster


Gonna ask you the same question; What do you count as 'Germanic'?

[Argang]

Gonna ask you the same question; What do you count as 'Germanic'?

Among those clusters?

2-11 because they spell out in the study that they are associated with Sweden and Norway. Cluster 1 is in Norway too, but since it's not counted as Norwegian in the study and has a specific location I assume it's Saami.

18-21 and 23 because they are in Germany, Denmark and the Low Countries.

[Beit El]

Among those clusters?

2-11 because they spell out in the study that they are associated with Sweden and Norway. Cluster 1 is in Norway too, but since it's not counted as Norwegian in the study and has a specific location I assume it's Saami.

18-21 and 23 because they are in Germany, Denmark and the Low Countries.

You can't count Austria, Switzerland, Southern Germany, Luxemburg, Belgium and Britain as Germanic, did you keep that in mind?

[Argang]

You can't count Austria, Switzerland, Southern Germany, Luxemburg, Belgium and Britain as Germanic, did you keep that in mind?

Even assuming that all those areas are not "genetic germanics" only removes cluster 18 from the list.

[Beit El]

Even assuming that all those areas are not "genetic germanics" that only removes cluster 18 from the list.

They aren't genetic nor historical Germanics, they were Celts and Celto-Germanics.

[Äijä]

They aren't genetic nor historical Germanics, they were Celts and Celto-Germanics.

Just like Finns are Finno-Germanic, but we dont even want to be considered as Germanic.

[Beit El]

Just like Finns are Finno-Germanic, but we dont even want to be considered as Germanic.

The Y-dna haplogroups associated with Germanic countries are pretty minor in Finland anyway, with the exception of the regions of the Finlandssvenska.

[Äijä]

The Y-dna haplogroups associated with Germanic countries are pretty minor in Finland anyway, with the exception of the regions of the Finlandssvenska.

Finland is genetically more Germanic than Germany, culturally also, it is a historical fact Finns are a combination of Finnic and Germanic tribes.

[Beit El]

Finland is genetically more Germanic than Germany, culturally also, it is a historical fact Finns are a combination of Finnic and Germanic tribes.

This is new to me. Source?

Eupedia uses this map, which seems reasonably accurate if you overlap it with the history of the migrations and invasions of the Germanic tribes.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Germanic_Europe.gif

[Äijä]

This is new to me. Source?

Look at the subclades Finns have in any project.

North Germany is Nordic , South is more Celtic, both have some Slavic.
The number of Southern European genes in Germany is also clear.

[Beit El]

Look at the subclades Finns have in any project.

North Germany is Nordic , South is more Celtic, both have some Slavic.
The number of Southern European genes in Germany is also clear.

Yeah we already established that Southern-Germany only has some Germanic admixture but is not actually core Germanic.

Who says those Finnish subclades aren't from pre-Germanic periods though? I don't know of any historical evidence that Germanic tribes migrated to Finland in large amounts.

[Äijä]

Eupedia uses this map, which seems reasonably accurate if you overlap it with the history of the migrations and invasions of the Germanic tribes.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Germanic_Europe.gif

That part of Finland is the area where the first settlers arrived, Germanic and Finnic, there was a paleo population living there before that, this happened around 500BC.

http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomi4.jpg

Western and Northern Estonia and Western Finland where populated by both groups, from them where born the Baltic Finns.
Tacitus explains this with the Suebi confederation that all where part around the Suebian Sea.

[Äijä]

Yeah we already established that Southern-Germany only has some Germanic admixture but is not actually core Germanic.

Who says those Finnish subclades aren't from pre-Germanic periods though? I don't know of any historical evidence that Germanic tribes migrated to Finland in large amounts.

If we look at genetics, archaeology and toponomy there is no question about it, have you even researched the subject? This is not my opinion, its based on facts.

We have these town and family names, enough to connect it to I1 that is 50% in Western Finland.


Earliest signs of habitation have been dated to 1200 BC. Written records mentioning the then village begin in the AD 15th century. Origins of the name Harjavalta go back to Chariovald, a German warrior chief quoted by the Roman historian Tacitus. The Germanic word harja-walduz denotes warrior chief and was adopted into Scandinavian languages in various forms. It is believed that either a person named Harjavaldus or a warrior band settled or lived in the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harjavalta

[Äijä]

Finnish pre-Christian names, Iron to Viking Age, many are Germanic loans according to Vahtola.

Ahti < Ahti, Achti
Alvettu < Alfheid
Asikka < Asicho
Ammakko < Amacho, Ammako
Aranti < Arand
Artukka, Artukainen < Ardoicus, Artgaud

Eura < Euracus

Halikko < Halicho
Halo < Halo
Harjavalta < Harjawalda
Hattelma < Hadelhalm
Hattu < Hathu, Haddo
Hauho, Hauhia < Hauha
Hervanta < Heriowanda

Ihamuoti < Ehamoti
Ilmari, Ilmarinen < Ildmir, Hildimar
Ingeranta < Ingebrand

Kaukaritsa < Gaugerich
Ketteli < Kettil
Kärväntä < Kaerwant

Lemminkäinen < Lehmbgen

Masku < Masco
Muotia, Muotiainen < Muota,
Muodo, Muotine

Nihattu < Nihhad

Paaskunta < Basigunde
Paro < Baro, Paro
Parta, Parto, Partia < Bard, Barda, Bardo
Pyynikki < Byniki

Rapo < Rabo
Rekotti < Reccoz
Renko < Renco
Rikanti < Rigant

Sotavalta < Zotowald

Tapio < Dabo, Tapo, Dapicho
Turenki < Thuring
Turso < Thursja

Ulvila < Ulv, Ulf
Unto, Untamo < Unto, Unda, Undi

Vanattara < Wanathere
Vermunti < Wermund
Vihti < Vihti
Villanti < Willand
Väinä, Väinämöinen < Weni,
Weniman

[Styrian Mujo]

Finland is genetically more Germanic than Germany, culturally also, it is a historical fact Finns are a combination of Finnic and Germanic tribes.
Germanic is a linguistic group and is somewhat a racial group in a more abstract spiritual sense,furthermore the original Germanics from southern Sweden and Denmark were not purely Nordocromagnid but had a strong if not pred. Nordid strain(depigmented Atlanto-Mediterranid?)Finns like the Scandinavian Germanics are more or less Nordic geneticaly and therefore have similar cultural patterns.

[Äijä]

Germanic is a linguistic group and is somewhat a racial group in a more abstract spiritual sense,furthermore the original Germanics from southern Sweden and Denmark were not purely Nordocromagnid but had a strong if not pred. Nordid strain(depigmented Atlanto-Mediterranid?)Finns like Scandinavian Germanics are Nordic geneticaly and therefore have similar cultural patterns.

Finns have the oldest preserved proto-germanic words in use in the world, our word for mother comes from gothic.

The ethnogenesis of the first Finns and Estonians is pretty clear.

[Peyrol]

This is from the People of the British Isles project (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/Royal%20Society%20exhibit%20Jul%202012d.pdf). Each number is a different type of DNA:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/EuropeanGeneticPie-Charts_zps5dd80959.jpg

It pretty much dispels the idea of a single Germanic race, given all the variety.

What a surprise...Piemonteis and ligurians pretty much identicals to provençals and languedociennes (and quite close to french and lombards)....and here some american continue to say that we're like night and day... :lol:

[Argang]

Germanic is a linguistic group and is somewhat a racial group in a more abstract spiritual sense,furthermore the original Germanics from southern Sweden and Denmark were not purely Nordocromagnid but had a strong if not pred. Nordid strain(depigmented Atlanto-Mediterranid?)Finns like the Scandinavian Germanics are more or less Nordic geneticaly and therefore have similar cultural patterns.

I think haplogroups like I1 that predate current linguistic groups in Europe are a bad measure of membership in said groups. Who's to say the germanic R1a or R1b clades aren't their best Y-lineage markers?

Germanic (and slavic) speaking groups usually fall within the north-central European cline in autosomal variation. Balts and Finns are at the northeastern end as the most extreme opposites to Mediterranean (Y-axis, Sardinians) and Near Eastern (X-axis, Palestinians) populations. The Russians in PCA below are HGDP's Vologda/Kargopol Russians, and even they have a more "southern" plotting.

http://oi62.tinypic.com/spyo03.jpg

[Äijä]

I think haplogroups like I1 that predate current linguistic groups in Europe are a bad measure of membership in said groups. Who's to say the germanic R1a or R1b clades aren't their best Y-lineage markers?

Germanic (and slavic) speaking groups usually fall within the north-central European cline in autosomal variation. Balts and Finns are at the northeastern end as the most extreme opposites to Mediterranean (Y-axis, Sardinians) and Near Eastern (X-axis, Palestinians) populations. The Russians in PCA below are HGDP's Vologda/Kargopol Russians, and even they have a more "southern" plotting.

http://oi62.tinypic.com/spyo03.jpg

In theory true but how do you explain the strong hint of I1 and Gemanic population in Finland?

[Aldaris]

This is new to me. Source?

Eupedia uses this map, which seems reasonably accurate if you overlap it with the history of the migrations and invasions of the Germanic tribes.

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Germanic_Europe.gif

This is just Y-DNA, its not really a complete picture of ethnic backround. Those are genetic distances between some european populations based on SNPs - http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/Fst.gif Even though the map suggests, that Germans and Norwegians are very close to each other on the genetic level, they are really not (even the Poles are closer to Germans, than the Norwegians are). The eupedia map does even unify some of R1 and I1, marking them both as germanic - in reality, there wasn't such a thing as unified proto-germanics, modern germanics came from several groups of people.

As for Finns, they aren't actually very related to most of the germanics.

[Äijä]

This is just Y-DNA, its not really a complete picture of ethnic backround. Those are genetic distances between some european populations based on SNPs - http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/Fst.gif Even though the map suggests, that Germans and Norwegians are very close to each other on the genetic level, they are really not (even the Poles are closer to Germans, than the Norwegians are). The eupedia map does even unify some of R1 and I1, marking them both as germanic - in reality, there wasn't such a thing as unified proto-germanics, modern germanics came from several groups of people.

As for Finns, they aren't actually very related to most of the germanics.

Do you know what area Finland proper is? Do you know that Finland has two Finnic speaking tribes with different genes inside the modern country?
That the Eastern Finns are Karelians that where not counted as Finns until historical times?
You have a hard time finding more preserved iron age populations than Finns.

[Argang]

Do you know what area Finland proper is? Do you know that Finland has two Finnic speaking tribes with different genes inside the modern country?
That the Eastern Finns are Karelians that where not counted as Finns until historical times?
You have a hard time finding more preserved iron age populations than Finns.

That's hardly related to the matter. The point was that "germanicness" can't really be based on Y-DNA haplogroups.

[Aldaris]

Do you know what area Finland proper is? Do you know that Finland has two Finnic speaking tribes with different genes inside the modern country?
That the Eastern Finns are Karelians that where not counted as Finns until historical times?
You have a hard time finding more preserved iron age populations than Finns.

I know about the genetic gap between finnish populations. The ones most related to Swedes are the southwestern Finns - the Swedes are one of their closest relatives in Europe, thats true, but there is still a relatively wide gap between them. I can provide you some links, if you want to.

[Äijä]

That's hardly related to the matter. The point was that "germanicness" can't really be based on Y-DNA haplogroups.

So West Finns are not half Germanic genetically?

[Argang]

So West Finns are not half Germanic genetically?

Not really, they may be genetically intermediate between East Finns and Swedes, but French are intermediate between English and Spanish and try suggesting one he's just an anglo-iberian.;)

[Aldaris]

Not really, they may be genetically intermediate between East Finns and Swedes, but French are intermediate between English and Spanish and try suggesting one he's just an anglo-iberian.;)

Try to convince a Basque about that, thats more of a challenge. :)

[Äijä]

I know about the genetic gap between finnish populations. The ones most related to Swedes are the southwestern Finns - the Swedes are one of their closest relatives in Europe, thats true, but there is still a relatively wide gap between them. I can provide you some links, if you want to.

South Western Finns are the Iron Age population, that is the area that was first settled and still where 2/3 of the population lives.
Finnish I1 in majority did not come from Sweden, it came from Denmark-North Germany area.

[Äijä]

Not really, they may be genetically intermediate between East Finns and Swedes, but French are intermediate between English and Spanish and try suggesting one he's just an anglo-iberian.;)

You are basically admitting the fact.

[Äijä]

You should study some Finnish history,linguistics, archaeology and culture so we would not be having this argument. Not saying this in bad spirit, I will link if I find something in English.

Exciting times, there are many new discoveries coming, Finnish scientist are actually seeking help from other countries in finishing the puzzle as they are lacking funds.

[Argang]

You are basically admitting the fact.

The hell I am!

Jokes aside, there's no evidence of French being mixes of English and Iberian (in fact it's probable the gene flow went the opposite way) and the same goes for...

[Aldaris]

South Western Finns are the Iron Age population, that is the area that was first settled and still where 2/3 of the population lives.
Finnish I1 in majority did not come from Sweden, it came from Denmark-North Germany area.

Based on the study I've read, they are way closer to Swedes, than to northern Germans. The point is, they do differ from the eastern Finns just as much as they do from the Swedes, but they are "close" to neither of them though. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0005472

[Äijä]

Based on the study I've read, they are way closer to Swedes, than to northern Germans. The point is, they do differ from the eastern Finns just as much as they do from the Swedes, but they are "close" to neither of them though. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0005472

Well it didnt split in modern North Germany, the estimate is from Nortdvedt.

How could it be closer to Swedes that it is when I am telling the Finns are a composition of these two groups?

[Äijä]

Cuturally Finns and Estonian differ from other Finnic people, the difference is the Germanic part of it.
We share the Norse gods and beliefs mixed with the Finnic, this mixing is the same no matter what discipline you look at.

We dont claim to be Germanic, we are an unique tribe inside the Baltic cultural sphere.

[Argang]

Well it didnt split in modern North Germany, the estimate is from Nortdvedt.

How could it be closer to Swedes that it is when I am telling the Finns are a composition of these two groups?

Finns and Balts are at the northern end of european cline, they aren't a mix of modern populations. If that was the case it'd show in their clustering.

[Äijä]

Finns and Balts are at the northern end of european cline, they aren't a mix of modern populations. If that was the case it'd show in their clustering.

Finns have not mixed much after Iron Age basically, others have.

[SobieskisavedEurope]

Finns and Balts are at the northern end of european cline, they aren't a mix of modern populations. If that was the case it'd show in their clustering.

Agreed!
If anything a lot of people are mixed with Finns & Balts!

Of course Russians are a heavy mix of Finns & Balts!

[Äijä]

Agreed!
If anything a lot of people are mixed with Finns & Balts!

Of course Russians are a heavy mix of Finns & Balts!

And we are closer to our iron age population than other groups, we are the epitome of a nation state.
Our toponomy is mostly from that time, our traditions, customs and festivals, you can live and breath history in Finland.
You can go to the old sacred sites that are surviving in great numbers, stone circles for public debates and law speakers to give out justice, places where our forefathers where buried.

[Black Wolf]

And we are closer to our iron age population than other groups, we are the epitome of a nation state.
Our toponomy is mostly from that time, our traditions, customs and festivals, you can live and breath history in Finland.
You can go to the old sacred sites that are surviving in great numbers, stone circles for public debates and law speakers to give out justice, places where our forefathers where buried.

Any old sacred sites near Isojoki? :)

[Äijä]

Any old sacred sites near Isojoki? :)

Pretty close. a big burial site and undiscovered settlement has to be close, I am thinking about going for some metal detecting.
They are digging up stuff weekly faster that the officials can register the sites.

[Neon Knight]

What regions are you counting as Germanic?Simply the ones speaking Germanic languages, at least as a starting point. Many seem to assume there is a strong link between Germanic genetics and language. You are free to argue.

The interesting thing about the Germans is that those around Hannover in the central north are very similar to those of Munich near Austria. It is the eastern Germans past the old Iron Curtain who are somewhat different.

Atlantean, I don't think the shades of colour on the map necessarily indicate genetic distance, but we already know about that from maps like this: http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/wp-content/blogs.dir/461/files/2012/04/i-1d01ee520e5f5c5088dc8a758ac692ac-genmap3.jpg What the pie-charts really show us is how Europeans are quite a mixture of DNA from different populations and from genetic mutations; how much of each is open to speculation. For example, the Irish DNA could have begun in Britain then become more dominant in Ireland and the western German DNA could have mutated from the French - or was it the other way around?

This is the approximate DNA composition of the central/southern English:

North/West German ---- 25%
Irish -------------------- 19%
Northwest French ------- 18%
Danish ------------------ 15%
Belgian ------------------- 9%
Pan-French --------------- 7%
Swedish ------------------ 4%
Norwegian ---------------- 1%
(2% undetermined)

[Black Wolf]

Pretty close. a big burial site and undiscovered settlement has to be close, I am thinking about going for some metal detecting.
They are digging up stuff weekly faster that the officials can register the sites.

Maybe someday I will come over there for a visit and look as well. :)

[Äijä]

Maybe someday I will come over there for a visit and look as well. :)

I can recommend sites for you then, I can also post studies and pictures if you are interested in iron/viking age Finland. :)

[Black Wolf]

I can recommend sites for you then, I can also post studies and pictures if you are interested in iron/viking age Finland. :)

Okay sounds great. Or you can just come with me when I am there. :D

[Fire Haired]

This is from the People of the British Isles project (http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21841126/Royal%20Society%20exhibit%20Jul%202012d.pdf). Each number is a different type of DNA:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/EuropeanGeneticPie-Charts_zps5dd80959.jpg

It pretty much dispels the idea of a single Germanic race, given all the variety.

I am pretty sure this is a K=29 admixture. This information is meant to be taken with a grain of salt.

[Argang]

I am pretty sure this is a K=29 admixture. This information is meant to be taken with a grain of salt.

Running a high K admixture run with a limited European population set will reveal some variation that's hidden on global admixture analyses by non-Europeans pushing Europeans together. Same thing happens with PCA's.

[Fire Haired]

Running a high K admixture run with a limited European population set will reveal some variation that's hidden on global admixture analyses by non-Europeans pushing Europeans together. Same thing happens with PCA's.

That makes sense.

[Peikko]

The Y-dna haplogroups associated with Germanic countries are pretty minor in Finland anyway, with the exception of the regions of the Finlandssvenska.
Actually you're wrong. Finns in Ostrobothnia have higher frequencies of I1, than Finland-Swedes in the same region just as an example.

Yeah we already established that Southern-Germany only has some Germanic admixture but is not actually core Germanic.

Who says those Finnish subclades aren't from pre-Germanic periods though? I don't know of any historical evidence that Germanic tribes migrated to Finland in large amounts.
We have lots of very old Germanic words, like Ukko said. Finnic languages are quite new to the region and Finns probably spoke something else before that.


Based on the study I've read, they are way closer to Swedes, than to northern Germans. The point is, they do differ from the eastern Finns just as much as they do from the Swedes, but they are "close" to neither of them though. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0005472
I don't see what genetic distances have to do with anything. Ever heard of genetic drift?


Cuturally Finns and Estonian differ from other Finnic people, the difference is the Germanic part of it.
We share the Norse gods and beliefs mixed with the Finnic, this mixing is the same no matter what discipline you look at.

We dont claim to be Germanic, we are an unique tribe inside the Baltic cultural sphere.
What does Estonia have to do with anything? They're like the opposite of Germanic influence.

[Aldaris]

Actually you're wrong. Finns in Ostrobothnia have higher frequencies of I1, than Finland-Swedes in the same region just as an example.

We have lots of very old Germanic words, like Ukko said. Finnic languages are quite new to the region and Finns probably spoke something else before that.


I don't see what genetic distances have to do with anything. Ever heard of genetic drift?


What does Estonia have to do with anything? They're like the opposite of Germanic influence.

I did. The genetic drift, however doesn't usually have any significant effect on larger populations. There indeed had to be some, but the actual genetic distance haven't been altered greatly (thus still relevant). Do we have any proof, that the relatively large genetic distance is caused by some genetic drift in those populations?

[Äijä]

We have lots of very old Germanic words, like Ukko said. Finnic languages are quite new to the region and Finns probably spoke something else before that.

What proof do have for that? Genetics is proving that half came with the language, from modern Estonia, half where germanic and also moved in around the iron age. Those lines count for clear majority of the paternal lines, they originate from known lines around the Baltic Sea.






What does Estonia have to do with anything? They're like the opposite of Germanic influence.

Northern and Western Estonia had the same Finnic/Germanic mixed population like Western Finland.


Most of our ancestors came in Finland during the iron age, like the language.

[Peikko]

Most of our ancestors came in Finland during the iron age, like the language.
Yeah, the baltids, not the original Finns.

[Comte Arnau]

Does the map mean that, except for the Irish and Iberians, the rest of Europeans are mutts? :laugh:

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Does the map mean that, except for the Irish and Iberians, the rest of Europeans are mutts? :laugh:

Pretty much

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2014/02/human-admixture-common-in-human-history.html

[Argang]

Does the map mean that, except for the Irish and Iberians, the rest of Europeans are mutts? :laugh:

Nope, that's a clustering run. It just mean Iberian, Irish and South Italian/Sicilian individuals mostly belong to one cluster, meaning the populations there are more homogenous than in, say, Germany where majority in the north belongs to cluster 20, and in the south majority is in cluster 19.

[Graham]

Does the map mean that, except for the Irish and Iberians, the rest of Europeans are mutts? :laugh:

The map is aimed at Britain. It's a project for us mainly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_British_Isles

[Äijä]

Yeah, the baltids, not the original Finns.

They spoke Finnic and Germanic when they came, Finnic speech in Western Finland, proper Finland, comes originally from modern Estonia.

The "original Finns" did not speak Finnic, could have spoken some form of Uralic but there might have been few different languages, they have very little input on our genes so they are not our ancestors either.

The more DNA tests we have the picture gets clearer that Baltic Finnics originate from the mixing of Finnic and Germanic peoples and cultures in the area of Finland and Estonia.

[Fire Haired]

They spoke Finnic and Germanic when they came, Finnic speech in Western Finland, proper Finland, comes originally from modern Estonia.

The "original Finns" did not speak Finnic, could have spoken some form of Uralic but there might have been few different languages, they have very little input on our genes so they are not our ancestors either.

The more DNA tests we have the picture gets clearer that Baltic Finnics originate from the mixing of Finnic and Germanic peoples and cultures in the area of Finland and Estonia.

What evidence is there that Baltic Uralics formed from a mixer of Uralic(what type?) like ancestors and Germanic like(what type?) ancestors? Finns and Estonians score over 30% in the north Atlantic component(centered in western Europe) in the EurogenesK13 admixture, which is higher than in any other north-eastern Europeans, and there is plenty of prove in Y DNA of Germanic admixture. That can easily be explained though by all of the differnt Germanic people during the Iron age and middle ages who migrated all over Europe and because of simple admixture between Finns-Norse and Estonians-Norse.

I know very little about Uralic people, but i would not be surprised if there have been Uralics in Europe longer than Germanics. There are some that think the Mesolithic Kunda and Comb Ceramic culture were Uralic. I think Uralics formed in Europe much later because those Mesolithic people were hunter gatherers and modern Uralic Europeans have significant amounts of near eastern farmer ancestry. Germanic and Uralic languages originated very far apart from each other, so unless Germanic languages are much older or people with a similar genetic makeup lived earlier i don't see how Baltic Uralics could have formed from an admixture of Germanic and Uralic people.

[Fire Haired]

Does the map mean that, except for the Irish and Iberians, the rest of Europeans are mutts? :laugh:

Everyone in Europe is a mutt, many populations in the world formed from admixture between very differentiated ancestral populations. You should read this: Revised Lazaridis, Ancient Genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?121668-Revised-Lazaridis-Ancient-Genomes-suggest-three-ancestral-populations-for-present-day-Europeans). Iberians probably have mainly Neolithic Iberian ancestry(includes ancestry from Mesolithic natives, and is mostly from near eastern farmer invaders) but they also defintley have ancestry from people who came after the Neolithic(R1b L11 came to west Europe after the Neolithic, probably with Indo Europeans). I am very confused right now about Italo-Celtic and Germanic west Europeans. My best guess is that Insular Celts like Irish are nearly purely descended of Celtic people who arrived in Britian from mainland western Europe in the bronze age and that most of their ancestry came from Indo Europeans from eastern Europe. Also that their Celtic ancestors had relatives in other areas of western Europe who gave a significant amount of ancestry to Celtic, Italic, and Germanic people.

[Äijä]

What evidence is there that Baltic Uralics formed from a mixer of Uralic(what type?) like ancestors and Germanic like(what type?) ancestors? Finns and Estonians score over 30% in the north Atlantic component(centered in western Europe) in the EurogenesK13 admixture, which is higher than in any other north-eastern Europeans, and there is plenty of prove in Y DNA of Germanic admixture. That can easily be explained though by all of the differnt Germanic people during the Iron age and middle ages who migrated all over Europe and because of simple admixture between Finns-Norse and Estonians-Norse.

I know very little about Uralic people, but i would not be surprised if there have been Uralics in Europe longer than Germanics. There are some that think the Mesolithic Kunda and Comb Ceramic culture were Uralic. I think Uralics formed in Europe much later because those Mesolithic people were hunter gatherers and modern Uralic Europeans have significant amounts of near eastern farmer ancestry. Germanic and Uralic languages originated very far apart from each other, so unless Germanic languages are much older or people with a similar genetic makeup lived earlier i don't see how Baltic Uralics could have formed from an admixture of Germanic and Uralic people.

Uralic and Baltic Finnic linguistically are not the same thing.

Baltic Finnic and Germanic language developed next to each other, Germanic linguists use Finnish to gather proto-Germanic words, we still use them in their original form.. So there you have the dating, the same date as the birth of Germanic language.

Archeology supports both populations living in the same area, so do toponyms, Western Finland is full of proto-Germanic village and house names.

All points that the Finnic I1 is an Germanic marker.

[Fire Haired]

Uralic and Baltic Finnic linguistically are not the same thing.

Baltic Finnic and Germanic language developed next to each other, Germanic linguists use Finnish to gather proto-Germanic words, we still use them in their original form.. So there you have the dating, the same date as the birth of Germanic language.

Archeology supports both populations living in the same area, so do toponyms, Western Finland is full of proto-Germanic village and house names.

All points that the Finnic I1 is an Germanic marker.

Thanks for informing me about proto-Germanic words in Finnish. Honestly i hope I1a2e-L287 and I1a2d-300 came to Finland from Germanic people, because Finnish-specfic I1 subclades and Scandinavian centered distribution of I1a2-L22 makes figuring out I1's origins very very complicated. I1 obviously was largely dispersed by Germanic people like R1b S21 and I2a2-M223, but it defintley existed in pre-Germanic people of central Europe and southern Scandinavia. It's very possible that I1a2-L22 was brought to Finland by pre-Germanic people of Sweden-Norway, because in western Finland Norse specfic I1 subclades, R1a-Norse, and R1b S21 are much more popular than in the rest of Finland which suggests Finnish specific I1 subclades came in pre Germanic times.

Germanic, Baltic, and Finno-Urgic people have known each other since the bronze age but that doesn't mean Baltic Uralics formed from an admixture of Uralics and Germanics.

[Äijä]

Thanks for informing me about proto-Germanic words in Finnish. Honestly i hope I1a2e-L287 and I1a2d-300 came to Finland from Germanic people, because Finnish-specfic I1 subclades and Scandinavian centered distribution of I1a2-L22 makes figuring out I1's origins very very complicated. I1 obviously was largely dispersed by Germanic people like R1b S21 and I2a2-M223, but it defintley existed in pre-Germanic people of central Europe and southern Scandinavia. It's very possible that I1a2-L22 was brought to Finland by pre-Germanic people of Sweden-Norway, because in western Finland Norse specfic I1 subclades, R1a-Norse, and R1b S21 are much more popular than in the rest of Finland which suggests Finnish specific I1 subclades came in pre Germanic times.

Germanic, Baltic, and Finno-Urgic people have known each other since the bronze age but that doesn't mean Baltic Uralics formed from an admixture of Uralics and Germanics.

So you dispute genetics, linguistics, archeology and culture? When everything points to the mixture it is very hard to dispute it. :D

The Finnish I1 clades are not from Sweden, they came straight from the root.
Their closest cousins are in Norway and that is funny because the sagas tell that Norway was founded by mythical Norr whos father was king of Finland.
The saga tells about his voyage from Finland to Norway, they stop in Denmark where they have kin, that is close to the core area where I1 is believed to have originated and also germanic language.

[Äijä]

The real question is who are the Sveas, not Geats but the temple of Uppsala people.

[Peikko]

What evidence is there that Baltic Uralics formed from a mixer of Uralic(what type?) like ancestors and Germanic like(what type?) ancestors? Finns and Estonians score over 30% in the north Atlantic component(centered in western Europe) in the EurogenesK13 admixture, which is higher than in any other north-eastern Europeans, and there is plenty of prove in Y DNA of Germanic admixture. That can easily be explained though by all of the differnt Germanic people during the Iron age and middle ages who migrated all over Europe and because of simple admixture between Finns-Norse and Estonians-Norse.

I know very little about Uralic people, but i would not be surprised if there have been Uralics in Europe longer than Germanics. There are some that think the Mesolithic Kunda and Comb Ceramic culture were Uralic. I think Uralics formed in Europe much later because those Mesolithic people were hunter gatherers and modern Uralic Europeans have significant amounts of near eastern farmer ancestry. Germanic and Uralic languages originated very far apart from each other, so unless Germanic languages are much older or people with a similar genetic makeup lived earlier i don't see how Baltic Uralics could have formed from an admixture of Germanic and Uralic people.


Thanks for informing me about proto-Germanic words in Finnish. Honestly i hope I1a2e-L287 and I1a2d-300 came to Finland from Germanic people, because Finnish-specfic I1 subclades and Scandinavian centered distribution of I1a2-L22 makes figuring out I1's origins very very complicated. I1 obviously was largely dispersed by Germanic people like R1b S21 and I2a2-M223, but it defintley existed in pre-Germanic people of central Europe and southern Scandinavia. It's very possible that I1a2-L22 was brought to Finland by pre-Germanic people of Sweden-Norway, because in western Finland Norse specfic I1 subclades, R1a-Norse, and R1b S21 are much more popular than in the rest of Finland which suggests Finnish specific I1 subclades came in pre Germanic times.

Germanic, Baltic, and Finno-Urgic people have known each other since the bronze age but that doesn't mean Baltic Uralics formed from an admixture of Uralics and Germanics.
Kunda and comb ceramic probably weren't uralic, because Finnic languages didn't arrive until maybe 500bc. I1 in Finland came probably from Northern Germany through Scandinavia way before that, so original Finns weren't really Finnic, but not really Germanic either. Baltic Finnic languages came through Estonia and there was nothing Germanic about them.