New Eurogenes proves relationship between Moroccans, Italians, French, Basques, Iberians, Sardinians

[Sikeliot]

Compare the "West Med" component:

Morocco: 24.21%
Mozabite: 23.64%

This exceeds both of their "East Med" components, which are at 22%.

Now, West Med for other North Africans:

Algeria: 21.32%
Tunisia: 20.06%
Egypt: 9.89%

And as you move east across North Africa, the East Med increases and West Med decreases rapidly around Egypt.

Now as for Atlantic and North Sea respectively, both are negligible in Egypt, but in Algeria are 8.75% and 4.18% respectively, while Atlantic is 11.7% in Tunisia, and 9% in Morocco with another 2.23% of North Sea.

[Sikeliot]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdHRPeVdMUDNjOVZETVoxZHpqVG5qN Hc&usp=sharing#gid=0

[Tooting Carmen]

Phenotypically, excluding some lighter Berbers and some very dark Canarians and (occasionally) mainland Southern Spaniards, they are still very different though.

[Lusos]

Doesn't this say Instead that both Populations have a high West Med. component.
Just like North Italy at 21.63.

New Eurogenes proves relationship between Moroccans and Iberians!"

No It does not.

And where does this West Med originates from ?

[cally]

Does West med peak in Sardinians ?

[Damião de Góis]

Does West med peak in Sardinians ?

It reaches its peak at Sardinians yes. But 48% isn't much of a peak value.

[The King, I am]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdHRPeVdMUDNjOVZETVoxZHpqVG5qN Hc&usp=sharing#gid=0

wow

[Tooting Carmen]

On a partly-related note, I'd like some votes and contributions to this thread of mine please: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?121116-Who-do-Andalusians-resemble-more-in-appearance-Germans-or-Turks

[Sidi Atlas]

In order to fully understand these numbers, we need much more information (introduction, background, methods, graphs and conclusions).

[Sikeliot]

What it shows is that "West Med" genes are high in NW Africa, not just in SW Europe.

[Sidi Atlas]

What it shows is that "West Med" genes are high in NW Africa, not just in SW Europe.

Mtdna analysis already showed post-glacial human expansions from Iberia into North Africa, nothing new.

[Sikeliot]

Mtdna analysis already showed a post-glacial human expansion from Iberia into North African, nothing new.

I think it explains a lot of those weird Portuguese Cromagnid type people, who look alien to the rest of Southern Europe.

[gold_fenix]

Original North African people surely had a analogy with Europe. North Africa too was populated with Cromagnon if they come from Europe to North Africa or simply they taken the other way to go to North Africa i don't know, after they received the own neolithic wave with Capsian culture in Europe we had other neolithic waves, different neolithic cultures

[Atlantic Islander]

You are just as bad as some of the trolls when you start threads likes these. Your love/hate relationship with Iberians is giving be whiplash lol.

[Sikeliot]

You are just as bad as some of the trolls when you start threads likes these. Your love/hate relationship with Iberians is giving be whiplash lol.

It's not love-hate relationship, it's just me demonstrating that the high West Med and even minor but noticeable Atlantid element in these North Africans does demonstrate a link with Iberia.

[Atlantic Islander]

I think it explains a lot of those weird Portuguese Cromagnid type people, who look alien to the rest of Southern Europe.

Portuguese CM looks like this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?109999-Portuguese-CM-phenotype). :cool:

[Sikeliot]

Portuguese CM looks like this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?109999-Portuguese-CM-phenotype). :cool:

I mean Ana Drago type people. I wouldn't say you're Cromagnid.

I find a lot of those heavily CM type Portuguese people to be strange looking for the rest of Southern Europe. Not that they look non-European, but their look is distinct.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_gz7BQ-x0cNw/SwM3e6lf1DI/AAAAAAAACds/oQFW5IJI1G4/s1600/Ana+Drago.bmp

[Atlantic Islander]

I mean Ana Drago type people. I wouldn't say you're Cromagnid.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_gz7BQ-x0cNw/SwM3e6lf1DI/AAAAAAAACds/oQFW5IJI1G4/s1600/Ana+Drago.bmp

Looks Gracile-Med rather than CM, like I said Portuguese CMs are like this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?109999-Portuguese-CM-phenotype) - similar to other European CMs.

[Sikeliot]

Looks Gracile-Med rather than CM, like I said Portuguese CMs are like this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?109999-Portuguese-CM-phenotype) - similar to other European CMs.

Ana Drago looks very peculiar for other Southern European countries, and I suspect it's the heavy CM.

I'm not saying her look is North African, but it looks like something straight out of the Paleolithic.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Well, we know that north africans come out of iberia, in historic times and in distance past, already. There is some middle east content since arabs came and later more SSA but they've always been related.

As for phenotype, just a little mixing to darker races is very dominant.

[Sidi Atlas]

I think it explains a lot of those weird Portuguese Cromagnid type people, who look alien to the rest of Southern Europe.
Not really since we're speaking about migrations from Europe into North Africa. Portuguese that look alien to Europe could be explained by their colonial adventures in Sub Saharan Africa and the New World.

A fully Caucasoid Berber and an unmixed Portuguese mix doesn't look that much exotic IMO, like Mourad Meghni:

http://lh4.ggpht.com/-TaCGrt9XrIo/TAYea3Mez4I/AAAAAAAA6Ek/I2uuchwQSqk/s800/Meghni._867188336.jpg

[Mark]

I mean Ana Drago type people. I wouldn't say you're Cromagnid.

I find a lot of those heavily CM type Portuguese people to be strange looking for the rest of Southern Europe. Not that they look non-European, but their look is distinct.

I don't think she is strange looking at all. She looks Graclie-med + CM and pretty distinctly Iberian.

*btw, her cm example isn't AI.

[Sidi Atlas]

Portuguese CM looks like this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?109999-Portuguese-CM-phenotype). :cool:

I made a thread about Southern Cromagnids (Berberid) (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?117612-Correct-use-of-quot-Berberid-quot).

[Sikeliot]

I don't think she is strange looking at all. She looks Graclie-med + CM and pretty distinctly Iberian.

*btw, her cm example isn't wasn't AI.

I mean she is strange in the sense that I've seen thousands of Italians, Greeks, French, Spaniards and not one looked like her, but 1 in 4 Portuguese women looks like her in my experience.

[Damião de Góis]

Ana Drago is an extreme look, with an unusual surname, from an extreme location. I find it funny that she became a celebrity on anthroforums regarding portuguese looks:

http://oi58.tinypic.com/w9i59h.jpg

[Atlantic Islander]

I mean she is strange in the sense that I've seen thousands of Italians, Greeks, French, Spaniards and not one looked like her, but 1 in 4 Portuguese women looks like her in my experience.

You live in the US where most Portuguese are mixed with other ethnicities, only small pockets of communities have unmixed Portuguese - Rhode Island and parts of California - that's about it. Americans are not good examples unless they are legit from the islands/mainland or are first or second generation Portuguese. This doesn't just apply to Portuguese, I don't believe any Americans about their background unless their family is fresh off the boat or close to fresh off the boat.

Remember I posted real average Portuguese here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118874-Average-Portuguese-People), and the consensus was that there were far fewer Gracile-Meds than people assume.

There are pan Gracile-Meds and then there are Gracile-Meds that fit better in their own countries, this is not something unique to Portugal. A South Italian Gracile-Med wouldn't necessarily fit in Portugal for example, as there would be something unique to their look that would place them more east than west.

[Atlantic Islander]

Ana Drago is an extreme look, with an unusual surname, from an extreme location. I find it funny that she became a celebrity on anthroforums regarding portuguese looks:

http://oi58.tinypic.com/w9i59h.jpg

Of course remember there are pages and pages of comments on the more unique types when posted for classification, while average types only get a handful of classifications.

[Damião de Góis]

Of course remember there are pages and pages of comments on the more unique types when posted for classification, while average types only get a handful of classifications.

It's true. Someone that was mentioned a lot, Sara Silveira, on the other hand got very little attention from the likes of Sikeliot and la vita e bella. The reason was:

1) not an ugly politician

2) not dark enough

[Sikeliot]

There are pan Gracile-Meds and then there are Gracile-Meds that fit better in their own countries, this is not something unique to Portugal. A South Italian Gracile-Med wouldn't necessarily fit in Portugal for example, as there would be something unique to their look that would place them more east than west.


I don't think she is Gracile Med, I think she is heavily archaic CM type.

[Atlantic Islander]

I don't think she is Gracile Med, I think she is heavily archaic CM type.

She's Gracile-Med + CM.

Heavily CM influenced Portuguese tend to lean this way:

http://imageshack.com/a/img41/6498/urdj.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img822/4236/yj0g.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img11/4493/ujsb.jpg

She's a pretty example of course, but the CM influenced average people I posted share a commonality.

[Tooting Carmen]

It's true. Someone that was mentioned a lot, Sara Silveira, on the other hand got very little attention from the likes of Sikeliot and la vita e bella. The reason was:

1) not an ugly politician

2) not dark enough

Oh for goodness sake. In my posts regarding Portuguese politicians, I do post ones who look like these:
http://cdn.controlinveste.pt/storage/DN/2012/big/ng2004476.JPG http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MiD4vV2Hf-c/ThX8kVduVlI/AAAAAAAAGOI/ub4FLb5YHMM/s1600/Maria+Jos%25C3%25A9+Nogueira+Pinto.jpg http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7134/6927883198_94c76ddd72_o.jpg http://imgs.sapo.pt/gfx/476097.gif http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6vdyxo4OJ1r55b4w.jpg

[Tooting Carmen]

As well as those who look like these:
http://www.cds.parlamento.pt/gp/images/stories/deputados/caeiro.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_gz7BQ-x0cNw/SwM3e6lf1DI/AAAAAAAACds/oQFW5IJI1G4/s1600/Ana+Drago.bmphttp://psdlisboa.net/admin/uploads/files/Deputados_-_Ana_Sofia_Bettencourt.jpg http://cdn.controlinveste.pt/Storage/JN/2012/medium/ng2186678.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rfjnZv6HNxw/Um0Oaoh271I/AAAAAAAAAYM/ueq7EwZfVo4/s1600/HAzenha.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_OW4xGAhQ3ZI/S9-HsAJ7c_I/AAAAAAAAC4c/-7Y0yvrV_tk/s1600/ines_medeiros.jpg http://lisboa.ps.pt/wp-content/uploads/inesdrummond.jpg http://imagens8.publico.pt/imagens.aspx/730448?tp=UH&db=IMAGENS http://www.cds.parlamento.pt/gp/images/stories/deputados/galria.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0xA000iEcKo/TjrIXi00nmI/AAAAAAAADq4/RCPdk9vzNP4/s1600/jaona+lopes.jpeg http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/N1H9O0i_KR4/hqdefault.jpg http://pagina.lisboa.cds.pt/gestor/ficheiros/lisboa/deputados/mor.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Paula_Teixeira_da_Cruz_(face).jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_O5NtdNR9GBo/TNu4kCGDJHI/AAAAAAAAEkM/7RooDq15QSA/s1600/rita_calv%25C3%25A1rio%2528BE%2529.jpg http://images.dinheirovivo.pt/ECO/File?dDocName=CIECO021295&fileName=A101-161786393147184645207605624.jpg&rendition=extra_wide&SID=99532

[Atlantic Islander]

Oh for goodness sake. In my posts regarding Portuguese politicians, I do post ones who look like these:

The point is that public figures are not good examples. Rural people/villagers are always going to be the BEST examples, for obvious reasons.

[Tooting Carmen]

The point is that public figures are not good examples.

If they are of native background, which 90% or so of the time they are (unless they're footballers), then what is the problem?

[Atlantic Islander]

If they are of native background, which 90% or so of the time they are (unless they're footballers), then what is the problem?

Because the best examples are rural people/villagers.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

She's Gracile-Med + CM.

Heavily CM influenced Portuguese tend to lean this way:

http://imageshack.com/a/img41/6498/urdj.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img822/4236/yj0g.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img11/4493/ujsb.jpg

She's a pretty example of course, but the CM influenced average people I posted share a commonality.

She can be a Basque who many are heavily CM influenced.

[Tooting Carmen]

Because the best examples are rural people/villagers.

Well regardless, I'm sure the photos I posted above are a representative sample, from blonde to swarthy with the bits in between.

[Atlantic Islander]

Well regardless, I'm sure the photos I posted above are a representative sample, from blonde to swarthy with the bits in between.

More representative than the people I posted?

[Tooting Carmen]

More representative than the people I posted?

No, but they aren't a bad sample either.

[Atlantic Islander]

No, but they aren't a bad sample either.

They are not good examples because they are grouped together, it makes it seem like atypical types are more typical than they actually are. That's why so many of you were like "oh these people don't look like how I imagined, etc" when I posted actual average people.

[Tooting Carmen]

They are because they are grouped, it makes it seem like atypical types are more typical than they actually are.

Alex himself ages ago when I first posted them said they are a representative sample; they are the MPs who represent Lisbon, according to the Portuguese Parliament website. Besides, compared to the infamous football team, Portuguese politicians are nowhere near as exotic.

[Tooting Carmen]

Perhaps a better (and lighter-pigmented) example of a Portuguese CM type than Ana Drago would be Joao Pinho de Almeida?
http://www.eleicoesautarquicas.pt/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/CDS-Jo%C3%A3o-Almeida-fonte-FB-_Jo%C3%A3o-Pinho-de-Almeida_.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tY4AWYpt690/S_57A7iUrxI/AAAAAAAAPoI/qOIvSVJSCho/s640/joaopinhoalmeida1.jpg

[Atlantic Islander]

Perhaps a better (and lighter-pigmented) example of a Portuguese CM type than Ana Drago would be Joao Pinho de Almeida?
http://www.eleicoesautarquicas.pt/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/CDS-Jo%C3%A3o-Almeida-fonte-FB-_Jo%C3%A3o-Pinho-de-Almeida_.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tY4AWYpt690/S_57A7iUrxI/AAAAAAAAPoI/qOIvSVJSCho/s640/joaopinhoalmeida1.jpg

Looks really soft. CM is harder featured.

[Tooting Carmen]

Looks really soft. CM is harder featured.

Still, either way, his facial profile looks very Portuguese to me.

[Atlantic Islander]

Alex himself ages ago when I first posted them said they are a representative sample; they are the MPs who represent Lisbon, according to the Portuguese Parliament website. Besides, compared to the infamous football team, Portuguese politicians are nowhere near as exotic.

You're right when it comes to teams, the only teams that can be used are rural/village teams and older teams as they are much less likely to have foreigners.

Good examples:

http://imageshack.com/a/img580/7894/3xlu.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img689/3670/mdoh.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img542/755/tov9.png

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Perhaps a better (and lighter-pigmented) example of a Portuguese CM type than Ana Drago would be Joao Pinho de Almeida?
http://www.eleicoesautarquicas.pt/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/CDS-Jo%C3%A3o-Almeida-fonte-FB-_Jo%C3%A3o-Pinho-de-Almeida_.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tY4AWYpt690/S_57A7iUrxI/AAAAAAAAPoI/qOIvSVJSCho/s640/joaopinhoalmeida1.jpg

Looks like a Alpinized Atlantid.

[Atlantic Islander]

Still, either way, his facial profile looks very Portuguese to me.

Again, when compared to groups of average people (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118874-Average-PT-People)....

[Sikeliot]

I never said that there were no normal Med types in Portugal, but that I can always tell a group of Portuguese from Italians and Greeks. Whereas it might take me longer to tell southern Spaniards apart.

[Tooting Carmen]

You're right when it comes to teams, the only teams that can be used are rural/village teams and older teams as they are much less likely to have foreigners.

Good examples:

http://imageshack.com/a/img580/7894/3xlu.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img689/3670/mdoh.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img542/755/tov9.png

Noticeably fewer people who resemble Andre Santos, Henrique Sereno, Luis Neto and Custodio Castro than in the national football team itself.:thumb001:

[Tooting Carmen]

Again, when compared to groups of average people (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118874-Average-PT-People)....

Actually, Pinto de Almeida is better-looking than a lot of the men in that thread.;)

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Again, when compared to groups of average people (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118874-Average-PT-People)....

True, pictures in groups screams Best examples. than one or two pictures with one individual each.

The better example.

[Atlantic Islander]

Actually, Pinto de Almeida is better-looking than a lot of the men in that thread.;)

I prefer harder features, soft faces aren't my thing... too childlike.

[Tooting Carmen]

True, pictures in groups screams Best examples. than one or two pictures with one individual each.

The better example.

I agree. Here are lots of group and crowd photos of Andalusians: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?121116-Who-do-Andalusians-resemble-more-in-appearance-Germans-or-Turks

[Sikeliot]

Anyway it isn't that Iberians look North African, but that some North Africans are white and look Iberian.

[Atlantic Islander]

I never said that there were no normal Med types in Portugal, but that I can always tell a group of Portuguese from Italians and Greeks. Whereas it might take me longer to tell southern Spaniards apart.

Your personal experience is with Americans though, like I said there - are only pockets of places in the US where there are Portuguese who are recent immigrants or close to recent (first & second generation Portuguese).

These people (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?100639-What-are-the-main-phenotypes-displayed-by-these-Portuguese-Americans) are average Portuguese-Americans for example, most are mixed.

I post regular island people all the time and people here act as if they can't possibly be the average or typical because they've been brainwashed to believe that the atypical types are typical.

[Atlantic Islander]

Anyway it isn't that Iberians look North African, but that some North Africans are white and look Iberian.

The wording in your initial comments didn't imply that though, more like the other way around lol.

[Tooting Carmen]

Anyway it isn't that Iberians look North African, but that some North Africans are white and look Iberian.

Actually, it's both. Does olive skin and big bushy eyebrows count as white?

[Atlantic Islander]

Actually, it's both. Does olive skin and big bushy eyebrows count as white?

White is a new world term.

The average (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118874-Average-PT-People) are not olive toned btw- many are sallow yes, but olive no. Suntans do not count as that is clearly not the natural skintone.

Again atypical is just that - atypical.

[Tooting Carmen]

White is a new world term.

Initially it was, but it has entered widespread usage elsewhere. Besides, Berbers seldom have truly white skin - as opposed to the light olive that a large minority of Southern Europeans also have (needless to say that the unexposed skin of the majority of Southern Europeans is either pale or sallow, not olive).

[Atlantic Islander]

Maybe I'm just not seeing things correctly, Morocco seems to be missing from this list... maybe I need new glasses.

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Murcia 3.72
2 Portuguese 3.96
3 Spanish_Extremadura 4.16
4 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 5.22
5 Spanish_Cataluna 5.27
6 Spanish_Galicia 5.71
7 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 7.1
8 Spanish_Valencia 7.23
9 Spanish_Cantabria 7.51
10 Spanish_Andalucia 7.87
11 Spanish_Aragon 8.26
12 North_Italian 9.83
13 Southwest_French 10.2
14 French 10.84
15 Tuscan 15.27
16 French_Basque 18.06
17 Southwest_English 18.4
18 German 19.48
19 Southeast_English 19.61
20 Serbian 20.22

The point is that the connection to North Africa is ancient, and you guys are stuck on this ancient admixture as if it matters to present day phenotypes.

[Tooting Carmen]

Maybe I'm just not seeing things correctly, Morocco seems to be missing from this list... maybe I need new glasses.

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Murcia 3.72
2 Portuguese 3.96
3 Spanish_Extremadura 4.16
4 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 5.22
5 Spanish_Cataluna 5.27
6 Spanish_Galicia 5.71
7 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 7.1
8 Spanish_Valencia 7.23
9 Spanish_Cantabria 7.51
10 Spanish_Andalucia 7.87
11 Spanish_Aragon 8.26
12 North_Italian 9.83
13 Southwest_French 10.2
14 French 10.84
15 Tuscan 15.27
16 French_Basque 18.06
17 Southwest_English 18.4
18 German 19.48
19 Southeast_English 19.61
20 Serbian 20.22

Iberians and NW Africans would be much more similar were it not for (a) the Northern European admixture in the former and (b) the Black African and SW Asian admixture in the latter. What links both is the large Mediterranean element, that's all.

[Atlantic Islander]

Original North African people surely had a analogy with Europe. North Africa too was populated with Cromagnon if they come from Europe to North Africa or simply they taken the other way to go to North Africa i don't know, after they received the own neolithic wave with Capsian culture in Europe we had other neolithic waves, different neolithic cultures

Yeah, people don't seem to get this.

[Atlantic Islander]

Iberians and NW Africans would be much more similar were it not for (a) the Northern European admixture in the former and (b) the Black African and SW Asian admixture in the latter. What links both is the large Mediterranean element, that's all.

The point is that the connection to North Africa is ancient, and you guys are stuck on this minor ancient admixture as if it matters to present day phenotypes. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?120548-So)

[Tooting Carmen]

The point is that the connection to North Africa is ancient, and you guys are stuck on this minor ancient admixture as if it matters to present day phenotypes.

I said myself that it is minor. Probably several centuries ago, Iberia and North Africa would not have been so different, but all the Visigoths, Vandals and post-Reconquista Central Europeans in the former would have lightened the population considerably; conversely, all the Black Africans and Gulf Arabs in the latter would have darkened the population considerably. The principal reason why the majority of contemporary Southern Europeans have pale rather than olive skin is because of all the Northern European admixture that has grown gradually over the centuries. Before that, all the Mediterranean peoples would have been more alike.

[Damião de Góis]

Maybe I'm just not seeing things correctly, Morocco seems to be missing from this list... maybe I need new glasses.


Maybe you need to take out all those spanish regions for them to appear, like on EU Test?

http://oi61.tinypic.com/vsnl1s.jpg

Wait, maybe not...

[Atlantic Islander]

Maybe you need to take out all those spanish regions for them to appear, like on EU Test?

http://oi61.tinypic.com/vsnl1s.jpg

Wait, maybe not...

Ah, you're right.. what was I thinking? Lets see...

http://imageshack.com/a/img513/6004/9t8k.png

Ummm...

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Actually, it's both. Does olive skin and big bushy eyebrows count as white?

Yes.

not all whites have to be pale and not all are like we should already know...Some are olive skin some are pale and some are in between. As for eyebrows, similar. some whites have kind of bushy eyebrows some don't and some seem like they don't have any eyebrows. like some Northern Europeans for example from Scandinavia.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Like this Nordic former UFC champion, wwe wrestler here for example of one those that seem like they don't have any eyebrows.
http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/images/photos/002/691/910/RAW_1028_Photo_116_crop_north.jpg?w=630&h=420&q=75

So the same? does no eyebrow type look count as white? xD

[Gaston]

The title is missing Italians, French, Basques and more importantly Sardinians. It's the latter which show the most similarity to Northwest Africans in these tests but you never see Iberians clustering with Berbers:

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/K15_NJ_Tree.png



Anyway it isn't that Iberians look North African, but that some North Africans are white and look Iberian.

No "white North African" look Iberian, or any kind of European for that matter. Their looks is alien to Europe most of the time.

[Sikeliot]

The wording in your initial comments didn't imply that though, more like the other way around lol.

Well I usually emphasize that there is Iberian in North Africa much more than the reverse, hence high West Med, noticeable Atlantic etc.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

By the way...I have kind of thick eyebrows and a bit unibrow like Santino Marella.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq291zeHAB1qkzklo.jpg

It must come from some Italian ancestor that I don't know about. xD

[Atlantic Islander]

The title is missing Italians, French, Basques and more importantly Sardinians. It's the latter which show the most similarity to Northwest Africans in these tests but you never see Iberians clustering with Berbers:

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/K15_NJ_Tree.png


Hence my first comment.

[Atlantic Islander]

Well I usually emphasize that there is Iberian in North Africa much more than the reverse, hence high West Med, noticeable Atlantic etc.

You used to say NA&SSA, but now moved on to West Med, because the North African percentage is basically the same as North Meso, Uralic, Samoedic, etc. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?120548-So)

[Tooting Carmen]

Well I usually emphasize that there is Iberian in North Africa much more than the reverse, hence high West Med, noticeable Atlantic etc.

Funnily enough, you were saying the opposite regarding Italians versus Levantines the other day - that more Italians look Levantine than the reverse. It is MUCH more common for Iberians (and other Southern Europeans) to have olive skin than it is for North Africans or even Levantines to have truly white skin. In no way, shape or form can this skintone be called 'white', even if it happens to be a native European with such a skintone (the following photos are what they are like untanned btw):
http://berberanews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/xavihernandez.jpg http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Henrique+Sereno+Valencia+CF+v+FC+Porto+Pre+6sNT4xw TQBKl.jpg

[Atlantic Islander]

It is MUCH more common for Iberians (and other Southern Europeans) to have olive skin


These extremely average and typical people (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118874-Average-PT-People) are not naturally olive. Again, you are trying to pass off an atypical feature as typical.

[Tooting Carmen]

None of these extremely average and typical people (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118874-Average-PT-People) are naturally olive. Again, you are trying to pass off an atypical feature as typical.

I'm not saying the majority of Iberians look like those two footballers, but a much larger minority do than is the case anywhere else in Europe bar Italy and Greece. Besides, I looked through the thread again and there were more than a few swarthy types, however much of a minority they were.

[Atlantic Islander]

I'm not saying the majority of Iberians look like them, but a much larger minority do than is the case anywhere else in Europe bar Italy and Greece. Besides, I looked through the thread again and there were more than a few swarthy types, however much of a minority they were.

None of which are naturally olive, it's called a suntan for a reason.

[Tooting Carmen]

None of which are naturally olive, it's called a suntan for a reason.

How can you prove that they are naturally fair-skinned necessarily?

[Atlantic Islander]

How can you prove that they are naturally fair-skinned necessarily?

A tan is a tan, and they are from MY ISLAND.

[Tooting Carmen]

A tan is a tan, and they are from MY ISLAND.

I've worked with lots of Portuguese people in my interpreting job - nine times out of ten they stand out in a crowd of Brits. Circa 90% or so have very dark brown/black hair and, of those, the percentage with natural olive skin is well into double figures. It's preposterous to think that people in Portugal would have the same complexion as people further North in Europe, given genetics and geography.

[Atlantic Islander]

I've worked with lots of Portuguese people in my interpreting job - nine times out of ten they stand out in a crowd of Brits. Circa 90% or so have very dark brown/black hair and, of those, the percentage with natural olive skin is well into double figures. It's preposterous to think that people in Portugal would have the same complexion as people further North in Europe, given genetics and geography.

What does that have to do with anything? The people I posted are average and typical. They have nothing to do with Brits.

[Sikeliot]

I think what I said makes sense. When Iberians and North Africans look alike it's because the North African looks typical Iberian, not the reverse.

[Tooting Carmen]

What does that have to do with anything? The people I posted are average and typical.

You're denying that a large minority of Portuguese people (I'm NOT saying it's the majority) - more than in most other European countries bar Spain, Italy, Greece and various Med islands - have naturally dark skin tones and thick facial features. That to me strikes me as self-hate.

[Atlantic Islander]

You're denying that a large minority of Portuguese people (I'm NOT saying it's the majority) - more than in most other European countries bar Spain, Italy, Greece and various Med islands - have naturally dark skin tones and thick facial features. That to me strikes me as self-hate.

Oh ffs. I posted average people.

[Tooting Carmen]

I think what I said makes sense. When Iberians and North Africans look alike it's because the North African looks typical Iberian, not the reverse.

But in any case, the majority of Iberians don't pass in most European countries bar Italy, Greece and maybe France.

[Tooting Carmen]

Oh ffs. I posted average people.

Yes, quite a few of whom are fairly swarthy, but you refuse to acknowledge that, in some cases at least, they are naturally so. After all, if there are Brits who look like Chris Coleman and there are Germans who look like Mats Hummels, then why is the idea of there being lots of naturally swarthy Portuguese people so beyond your comprehension?

[Atlantic Islander]

But in any case, the majority of Iberians don't pass in most European countries bar Italy, Greece and maybe France.

And? What does that have to do with anything? You think atypical is something common, when it's clearly not.

[Atlantic Islander]

Yes, quite a few of whom are fairly swarthy, but you refuse to acknowledge that, in some cases at least, they are naturally so. After all, if there are Brits who look like Chris Coleman and there are Germans who look like Mats Hummels, then why is the idea of there being lots of naturally swarthy Portuguese people so beyond your comprehension?

Dark hair and dark eyes does not equal swarthy, no matter what some may think.

[Tooting Carmen]

Dark hair and dark eyes does not equal swarthy, no matter what some may think.

It depends on the skin tone when untanned. The difference is that the percentage of Brits and Germans who look like Chris Coleman and Mats Hummels is more like 2-3%, whereas Spaniards and Portuguese who look like Xavi Hernandez and Henrique Sereno are well into double figures percentage-wise. (No, they are not average, but they are common types nonetheless).

[Atlantic Islander]

The difference is that the percentage of Brits and Germans who look like Chris Coleman and Mats Hummels is more like 2-3%, whereas Spaniards and Portuguese who look like Xavi Hernandez and Henrique Sereno are well into double figures percentage-wise. (No, they are not average, but they are common types nonetheless).

You are the only one that cares about these other groups. They are not the standard ffs. They don't matter and they have nothing to do with this thread.


It depends on the skin tone when untanned.

Again, average people. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118874-Average-PT-People)

[Alessio]

I'd bet Chris Coleman has some forreign (maybe Southern European) ancestry ;)


Yes, quite a few of whom are fairly swarthy, but you refuse to acknowledge that, in some cases at least, they are naturally so. After all, if there are Brits who look like Chris Coleman and there are Germans who look like Mats Hummels, then why is the idea of there being lots of naturally swarthy Portuguese people so beyond your comprehension?

[Damião de Góis]

You're denying that a large minority of Portuguese people (I'm NOT saying it's the majority) - more than in most other European countries bar Spain, Italy, Greece and various Med islands - have naturally dark skin tones and thick facial features. That to me strikes me as self-hate.

Thick facial features? Are you calling people from Portugal ugly? You, a colombian-brit? Are you serious??

And yes, dark skin tones are rare here among natives. Should be obvious if you visited the country.

[Tooting Carmen]

Thick facial features? Are you calling people from Portugal ugly? You, a colombian-brit? Are you serious??

And yes, dark skin tones are rare here among natives. Should be obvious if you visited the country.

No, by 'thick facial features' I mean large eyebrows and prominent lips and noses, which can actually be attractive. Furthermore, it depends on how you define 'dark skin tones'. If you mean people who look like Monty Panesar, then of course they are rare-to-non-existent among the Portuguese, just as they would be among any European population. However, if you mean people who look like Cesar Fabregas, then they are commonplace (though NOT the majority, of course) in Portugal, as they are in Spain, Italy and Greece. Like I said, even Brits and Germans can occasionally have darker colourings too. Lastly, fyi, I visited Lisbon in 2004, Madeira in 2010 and Porto in 2011, and I regularly work with Portuguese people in my job, so I am familiar with their variety of looks.

[Atlantic Islander]

...

Pink tinged skin is no lighter than sallow tinged skin.

[Damião de Góis]

No, by 'thick facial features' I mean large eyebrows and prominent lips and noses, which can actually be attractive. Furthermore, it depends on how you define 'dark skin tones'. If you mean people who look like Monty Panesar, then of course they are rare-to-non-existent among the Portuguese, just as they would be among any European population. However, if you mean people who look like Cesar Fabregas, then they are commonplace (though NOT the majority, of course) in Portugal, as they are in Spain, Italy and Greece. Like I said, even Brits and Germans can occasionally have darker colourings too. Lastly, fyi, I visited Lisbon in 2004, Madeira in 2010 and Porto in 2011, and I regularly work with Portuguese people in my job, so I am familiar with their variety of looks.

I don't know what your definition of "dark skin" is. But if you consider these people to be dark skinned, then yes... most people here have dark skin:

http://oi62.tinypic.com/29muc0j.jpg

[Insuperable]

What it shows is that "West Med" genes are high in NW Africa, not just in SW Europe.

So? Since there are South Asians living in the USA, will that explain Veddoid look in India?:rolleyes:

[Atlantic Islander]

The title is missing Italians, French, Basques and more importantly Sardinians. It's the latter which show the most similarity to Northwest Africans in these tests but you never see Iberians clustering with Berbers:

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/K15_NJ_Tree.png




No "white North African" look Iberian, or any kind of European for that matter. Their looks is alien to Europe most of the time.

I agree, the title should be changed.

[Graham]

If it were a relationship, you are possibly going back a few thousand years with West Med. It has strong Neolithic links.

[The King, I am]

Portuguese CM looks like this (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?109999-Portuguese-CM-phenotype). :cool:

Baskid and Berberid look identical because they are

[Lusos]

I think it explains a lot of those weird Portuguese Cromagnid type people, who look alien to the rest of Southern Europe.

Alien anywhere.Its a Portuguese type,which happens to be European.

[Lusos]

I mean Ana Drago type people. I wouldn't say you're Cromagnid.

I find a lot of those heavily CM type Portuguese people to be strange looking for the rest of Southern Europe. Not that they look non-European, but their look is distinct.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_gz7BQ-x0cNw/SwM3e6lf1DI/AAAAAAAACds/oQFW5IJI1G4/s1600/Ana+Drago.bmp

Once more.Of course Is distinct.It's Portuguese.You forget(Or don't know)

"The prehistory of the Iberian peninsula begins with the arrival of the first hominins 1.2 million years ago and ends with the Punic Wars, when the territory enters the domains of written history. In this long period, some of its most significant landmarks were to host the last stand of the Neanderthal people, to develop some of the most impressive Paleolithic art, alongside with southern France, to be the seat of the earliest civilizations of Western Europe....."

"The land within the borders of the current Portuguese Republic has been continually settled since prehistoric times......"

[Lusos]

Of course remember there are pages and pages of comments on the more unique types when posted for classification, while average types only get a handful of classifications.

My "Classify my parents" had only I think 5 or 6 posts.But over 60 viewers.
Yeah.Not what they wanted(Expected).

[Lusos]

Perhaps a better (and lighter-pigmented) example of a Portuguese CM type than Ana Drago would be Joao Pinho de Almeida?
http://www.eleicoesautarquicas.pt/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/CDS-Jo%C3%A3o-Almeida-fonte-FB-_Jo%C3%A3o-Pinho-de-Almeida_.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tY4AWYpt690/S_57A7iUrxI/AAAAAAAAPoI/qOIvSVJSCho/s640/joaopinhoalmeida1.jpg

Must be a remnant of the Berber. Hahaha.

[Lusos]

]Iberians and NW Africans would be much more similar were it not for (a) the Northern European admixture in the former [/B]and (b) the Black African and SW Asian admixture in the latter. What links both is the large Mediterranean element, that's all.

Yes.Thanks to Whites that made us Mixed Race.Before we were Arabs.
Other thing Is that Christians converts to Islam were also expelled to whatever they went.Most to ...North Africa.

[Lusos]

Actually, it's both. Does olive skin and big bushy eyebrows count as white?

Is being hairy not a White trait?

Blacks are hairless.So as Northerners.

[The King, I am]

Is being hairy not a White trait?

Blacks are hairless.So as Northerners.

North Europeans are hairy as fuck

[Lusos]

I've worked with lots of Portuguese people in my interpreting job - nine times out of ten they stand out in a crowd of Brits. Circa 90% or so have very dark brown/black hair and, of those, the percentage with natural olive skin is well into double figures. It's preposterous to think that people in Portugal would have the same complexion as people further North in Europe, given genetics and geography.

Living In England,and reading your post makes me LOL.
It seems you're speaking about negroes.

I have a fairer skin then most of them.(Not the height)
We even joke about It.You should especially see them when they coming back from holidays.

Also someone speaking In Portuguese does not Make one a Portuguese.Remember.Brasil alone has 250 Million People.And they speak Portuguese.
The odds of you finding a Brazilian etc;are much greater then a Portuguese.(10 Millions)

[Lusos]

Funnily enough, you were saying the opposite regarding Italians versus Levantines the other day - that more Italians look Levantine than the reverse. It is MUCH more common for Iberians (and other Southern Europeans) to have olive skin than it is for North Africans or even Levantines to have truly white skin. In no way, shape or form can this skintone be called 'white', even if it happens to be a native European with such a skintone (the following photos are what they are like untanned btw):
http://berberanews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/xavihernandez.jpg http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Henrique+Sereno+Valencia+CF+v+FC+Porto+Pre+6sNT4xw TQBKl.jpg


Henrique Sereno (The Portuguese guy)

http://as01.epimg.net/futbol/imagenes/2012/08/25/mas_futbol/1345845623_740215_0000000001_noticia_normal.jpg
He plays now for Valladolid In Spain on loan.

Better picture though don't you agree?

[Tooting Carmen]

Henrique Sereno (The Portuguese guy)

http://as01.epimg.net/futbol/imagenes/2012/08/25/mas_futbol/1345845623_740215_0000000001_noticia_normal.jpg
He plays now for Valladolid In Spain on loan.

Better picture though don't you agree?

Possibly, although believe it or not I've seen even more tanned photos of him than the one I first posted. Besides, even in that photo he has a sallow complexion that is certainly PRONE to tanning.

[Tooting Carmen]

Living In England,and reading your post makes me LOL.
It seems you're speaking about negroes.

I have a fairer skin then most of them.(Not the height)
We even joke about It.You should especially see them when they coming back from holidays.

Also someone speaking In Portuguese does not Make one a Portuguese.Remember.Brasil alone has 250 Million People.And they speak Portuguese.
The odds of you finding a Brazilian etc;are much greater then a Portuguese.(10 Millions)

Nope, I am talking about native Portuguese people who I regularly interpret for. Also, it is piss easy to distinguish a dark Med from Portugal, or indeed any Southern European country, from an actual Pardo/Mulatto/Mestizo. Many of the men I've met look roughly like this:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/6/18/1245333462603/Jose-Manuel-Barroso-001.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hCk4XgI7OCw/T8eY8pGBF-I/AAAAAAAAAOk/tiLJvcZr3q8/s1600/980x735cs.jpg http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5173/210/1600/jose_socrates_adn.jpg http://cdn.record.xl.pt/storage/ng8A3F4FAA-DD90-41F1-968F-9E3A19D67E65.JPG?type=big

[Tooting Carmen]

Btw, the ones I just posted are pretty common types among the Portuguese. The ones who are truly exotic/unusual for Portugal are those who look like Rui Costa and Carlos Martins, not those.

[Tooting Carmen]

Back on topic: while this ancient relationship between Iberians and North Africans may be true, the physiological differences between the two groups are enormous - far more so than Greeks and Turks, for example.

[Atlantic Islander]

My "Classify my parents" had only I think 5 or 6 posts.But over 60 viewers.
Yeah.Not what they wanted(Expected).

Of course, some people keep trying to push atypical types and call them "common", trying to bury threads like the one I created which show completely average people (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?118874-Average-PT-People),because it doesn't fit what they want to see.

[Atlantic Islander]

Btw, the ones I just posted are pretty common types among the Portuguese.

That's your opinion.

[Atlantic Islander]

Baskid and Berberid look identical because they are

There is nothing Baskid about the example, she's mostly CM.

[Atlantic Islander]

Possibly, although believe it or not I've seen even more tanned photos of him than the one I first posted. Besides, even in that photo he has a sallow complexion that is certainly PRONE to tanning.

You don't seem to get that undertone doesn't matter. A pink tinge is not lighter than a yellow tinge. Period.

[The King, I am]

There is nothing Baskid about the example, she's mostly CM.

Yes there is haha

[Atlantic Islander]

Yes there is haha

Wrong.

[Alessio]

:yawnee20:

[Cristiano viejo]

I dont see that Eurogenes proves too much, because all European countries also score some percentages about North African genes.

[Geni]

marrokino :laugh2:

[Cristiano viejo]

marrokino :laugh2:

How much North African did you score in 23andme, Geni?

[Geni]

Man i am FTDNA not 23..

[Cristiano viejo]

Man i am FTDNA not 23..

ok, in wherever. How much did you score?