Ukraine to End Unrest in East Through Dialogue or Force – Interior Minister

[Loki]

Ukraine to End Unrest in East Through Dialogue or Force – Interior Minister (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140409/189122278/Ukraine-to-End-Unrest-in-East-Through-Dialogue-or-Force-.html)

http://en.ria.ru/images/18912/22/189122244.jpg

KIEV, April 9 (RIA Novosti) – The situation in eastern Ukraine, where federalization supporters have been holding protests since Sunday, will soon be resolved either through dialogue with the demonstrators or by force, acting Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov told journalists on Wednesday.

“I think the crisis will be resolved within the next 48 hours,” Avakov said. “We can at any moment carry out what we have planned. There are two possible developments for the situation: negotiations or the use of force.”

The minister's threat of force came in defiance of warnings by Moscow and international experts that a violent crackdown on the demonstrators, who are seeking increased local autonomy, risked escalating the crisis and plunging the country into a civil war.

Protesters have stepped up demonstrations in recent days in support of federalization across Ukraine’s eastern and southeastern regions, calling for Crimea-style referendums on the status of their regions within Ukraine.

On Monday, supporters of federalization declared the formation of independent “people’s republics” in the cities of Donetsk and Kharkiv.

Beginning last month, protests in eastern cities have been held each Sunday, with citizens refusing to accept their newly-appointed governors as legitimate, as they were installed by the organizers of a coup in the capital in February.

Foreign Secretary William Hague called on the EU Tuesday to toughen sanctions against Russia, saying the recent protests in southeastern Ukraine bore "all the hallmarks of a Russian strategy to destabilize Ukraine."

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov rejected similar claims by the US on Tuesday, warning the West against shifting the blame onto Russia for the ongoing political turmoil in the country, which Moscow insists is the result of actions by the country’s new authorities.

[Loki]

Interesting .. at Maidan everyone were against force against the protesters. Let's see how many in the world are hypocrites when it comes to this one. But, this city (Donetsk) sits right on Russia's border. I foresee an "interesting" weekend ...

[Methmatician]

Interesting .. at Maidan everyone were against force against the protesters. Let's see how many in the world are hypocrites when it comes to this one. But, this city (Donetsk) sits right on Russia's border. I foresee an "interesting" weekend ...
There's a difference between protesting against an oppressive government and armed separatism.

[Loki]

There's a difference between protesting against an oppressive government and armed separatism.

The current Kiev regime (which is not even elected) is certainly oppressive towards the Russian-speaking areas. They want revolution? Okay, they got it. Perhaps civil war even.

[Methmatician]

The current Kiev regime (which is not even elected) is certainly oppressive towards the Russian-speaking areas. They want revolution? Okay, they got it. Perhaps civil war even.
What rights are they suppressing? The right to treason?

[Loki]

What rights are they suppressing? The right to treason?

Treason? The current regime is first and foremost guilty of treason. If I was a Donetskian I would much rather want to live in the stability of the Russian Federation. Can you blame them?

Yatsenyuk just doesn't want to lose this part of Ukraine, because it is the country's industrial heartland. Without eastern Ukraine, the country is essentially Third World.

[Methmatician]

Treason? The current regime is guilty first and foremost guilty of treason. If I was a Donetskian I would much rather want to live in the stability of the Russian Federation. Can you blame them?
I understand it wasn't exactly legal but at lest they're holding elections and trying to fix the situation rather than tearing the country apart. Remember, what they're doing in Eastern Ukraine won't just effect them, it will effect the rest of Ukraine. They think that joining Russia will fix all their problems but it's still the same. Main difference I can think of is looser laws on pornography and more surveillance by the government.

Yatsenyuk just doesn't want to lose this part of Ukraine, because it is the country's industrial heartland. Without eastern Ukraine, the country is essentially Third World.
Or maybe, you know, it has something to do with Ukraine's territorial integrity. That's why most countries try to suppress separatism.

[RussiaPrussia]

What rights are they suppressing? The right to treason?

treason? like america to britain or ukraine to the soviet union??

[Methmatician]

treason? like america to britain or ukraine to the soviet union??
Elaborate.

[Loki]

Or maybe, you know, it has something to do with Ukraine's territorial integrity. That's why most countries try to suppress separatism.

Ukraine's "territorial integrity". Ukraine has barely existed from 1991 I think. Before that it was part of the Soviet Union. Making the current Ukrainian borders was obviously a grave mistake back then. It should have been drawn along ethno-linguistic lines.

[awyr dywyll]

Ukraine to End Unrest in East Through Dialogue or Force – Interior Minister (http://en.ria.ru/world/20140409/189122278/Ukraine-to-End-Unrest-in-East-Through-Dialogue-or-Force-.html)

http://en.ria.ru/images/18912/22/189122244.jpg


So what's the problem?! If these "Russians patriots" want to live in Russia, let'em pack their bags and get the fuck out to Russia!

[Loki]

So what's the problem?! If these "Russians patriots" want to live in Russia, let'em pack their bags and get the fuck out to Russia!

Easier: let Donetsk region join the Russian Federation, like Crimea. Russians have always been a majority in that region, it's their ancestral homeland.

[Methmatician]

Ukraine's "territorial integrity". Ukraine has barely existed from 1991 I think. Before that it was part of the Soviet Union. Making the current Ukrainian borders was obviously a grave mistake back then. It should have been drawn along ethno-linguistic lines.
How does that make it okay to mess with the borders of a country? Everyone recognised Ukraine's borders and still do. You can't just one day decide to mess with a country's borders simply because you think they should be different.

[Loki]

How does that make it okay to mess with the borders of a country? Everyone recognised Ukraine's borders and still do. You can't just one day decide to mess with a country's borders simply because you think they should be different.

Crimea was an autonomous area within Ukraine who held a referendum to join Russia. Russia hasn't forced itself on any part of Ukraine yet. The Crimean parliament ASKED Russia to come in.

As for Donetsk - it's for the PEOPLE to decide. Ever heard of democracy? If they don't want to be part of Ukraine, they should not be forced to be.

[Sarmatian]

How can Kiev's junta sort anything out by force with army like that

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/statixaos/16015392/9530/9530_original.jpg

while protester's core is well organized bunch of ex-military officers from former USSR with real combat experience.

[Methmatician]

Crimea was an autonomous area within Ukraine who held a referendum to join Russia. Russia hasn't forced itself on any part of Ukraine yet. The Crimean parliament ASKED Russia to come in.
Under Ukrainian law the referendum needed te be approved by the parliament in Kiev.

As for Donetsk - it's for the PEOPLE to decide. Ever heard of democracy? If they don't want to be part of Ukraine, they should not be forced to be.
It's not really democracy when they separate without some sort of referendum or permission by federal government. That's just separatism, and it's illegal.

[Manifest Destiny]

Treason? The current regime is first and foremost guilty of treason. If I was a Donetskian I would much rather want to live in the stability of the Russian Federation. Can you blame them?

Is the Ukrainian government preventing the Russian speakers from emigrating?

[Loki]

Under Ukrainian law the referendum needed te be approved by the parliament in Kiev.


There is no more legitimate government in Kiev. It was taken over by US-inspired coup.



It's not really democracy when they separate without some sort of referendum or permission by federal government. That's just separatism, and it's illegal.

It's so funny to me when Maidan thugs and revolutionaries were hailed heroes, but when it goes the other way it is "separatism". Anyone with half a brain can smell the bullshit a mile away.

[Manifest Destiny]

There is no more legitimate government in Kiev. It was taken over by US-inspired coup.



It's so funny to me when Maidan thugs and revolutionaries were hailed heroes, but when it goes the other way it is "separatism". Anyone with half a brain can smell the bullshit a mile away.

Overthrowing a government isn't the same as separatism.

[Loki]

Is the Ukrainian government preventing the Russian speakers from emigrating?

Why would they emigrate? Their ancestors have been living there for centuries. East Ukraine is predominantly Russian-speaking.

[Loki]

Overthrowing a government isn't the same as separatism.

Indeed, overthrowing a government is worse.

[Xenomorph]

Donetsk is in a Ukrainian-majority oblast. Separatism isn't a valid option:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/04/08/why-donetsk-isnt-crimea-in-two-maps/

[Sarmatian]

Donetsk is in a Ukrainian-majority oblast. Separatism isn't a valid option:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/04/08/why-donetsk-isnt-crimea-in-two-maps/

Donetsk and Lugansk populated by Don Cossacks for most part. Nothing to do with Ukraine.

[Manifest Destiny]

Why would they emigrate? Their ancestors have been living there for centuries. East Ukraine is predominantly Russian-speaking.

Why would they stay if they're more loyal to Russia than Ukraine?

[Manifest Destiny]

Indeed, overthrowing a government is worse.

That depends on the nature of the government being overthrown.

[Teyrn]

Huffing and puffing about the use of force unless the UN blue helmets and/or NATO decides to send in peacekeepers- and that'd certainly improve the situation. :D

[Loki]

Why would they stay if they're more loyal to Russia than Ukraine?

Because they are Russian, not Ukrainian.

[Loki]

Huffing and puffing about the use of force unless the UN blue helmets and/or NATO decides to send in peacekeepers- and that'd certainly improve the situation. :D

Methinks Russia is already "smuggling" in special forces with silenced sniper guns. It's right on the border. ;)

The next week is going to be fireworks ...

[Teyrn]

Methinks Russia is already "smuggling" in special forces with silenced sniper guns. It's right on the border. ;)

The next week is going to be fireworks ...

Election year for Congress in the U.S. so the warhawks are being fairly quiet outside of John "Bottom of the class at US naval academy" McCain and the like. Wars are kinda, sorta unpopular here thanks to Iraq, Afghanistan, the attempt to meddle in Syria, etc. And except for the war profiteers in Congress (re: McCain) and such who constantly
go on about him and how bad he is (and they aren't? :D ) Putin has generally more favorable views than Obama and especially Congress from several online articles that I've read. :D

NATO can't do much in Ukraine imo without upping the ante. Probably what'll happen is a shifting of forces around in Eastern Europe.

[Manifest Destiny]

Because they are Russian, not Ukrainian.

Exactly. So why should they stay in Ukraine for generations if they have no loyalty to the country? I'm sure the Ukrainian government would be happy to allow them to go back to Russia, the land of their ancestors.

[Loki]

Exactly. So why should they stay in Ukraine for generations if they have no loyalty to the country? I'm sure the Ukrainian government would be happy to allow them to go back to Russia, the land of their ancestors.

:picard2:

It was part of the Soviet Union until 1991. There was no such country as "Ukraine" before that. It was just a province.

[awyr dywyll]

Easier: let Donetsk region join the Russian Federation, like Crimea. Russians have always been a majority in that region,

No, there's another explanation: These "patriots" didn't go to school and knew nothing about this region and their parents forgot to tell'em that it is part of Ukraine, until their Cremlin masters reminded them of who they belong to.


it's their ancestral homeland.
Ancestral homeland of these bastards is prison!

[Manifest Destiny]

:picard2:

It was part of the Soviet Union until 1991. There was no such country as "Ukraine" before that. It was just a province.

And it was controlled by people other than Russians before that. What's your point?

[Loki]

No, there's another explanation: These "patriots" didn't go to school and knew nothing about this region and their parents forgot to tell'em that it is part of Ukraine, until their Cremlin masters reminded them of who they belong to.


Ancestral homeland of these bastards is prison!

I know why you're bitching about this separatism - without these hard-working Russian-speakers, Ukraine wouldn't even have an economy. That's why you don't want to lose them. Without them, Ukraine would probably have a GDP per capita comparable to a Sub-Saharan African country. Ouch, sorry. But I had to bring you back to earth.

[Loki]

And it was controlled by people other than Russians before that. What's your point?

What - like 600 years ago?

[Manifest Destiny]

What - like 600 years ago?

Does it matter? If so, how long must one nation occupy another before it has some eternal claim to its land?

[awyr dywyll]

I know why you're bitching about this separatism - without these hard-working Russian-speakers,
I'll tell you a secret,almost all of the Ukraine is Russian-speakers including leaders of Ukrainian nationalists, which ignorant Russian agitators call "fascists"


Ukraine wouldn't even have an economy. That's why you don't want to lose them. Without them, Ukraine would probably have a GDP per capita comparable to a Sub-Saharan African country. Ouch, sorry. But I had to bring you back to earth.
It's better to be in a level of Sub-Saharan countries than to return in "rich" Cremlin "pachanat". And one more: Ukrainian economic and money is not Cremlin business from now, so let Cremlin mafia better will be engaged in their beggar Russian province

[Loki]

Well awyr dywyll, good luck to you. Those Russian-speakers won't give in to Kiyev that easily. And if they decide to play nasty, Russia will intervene decisively. And NATO won't do fuck-all.

[Loki]

Does it matter? If so, how long must one nation occupy another before it has some eternal claim to its land?

Give your country back to the Native Americans then :)

[awyr dywyll]

How can Kiev's junta sort anything out by force with army like that

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/statixaos/16015392/9530/9530_original.jpg

while protester's core is well organized bunch of ex-military officers from former USSR with real combat experience.

Yes, unfortunately today Ukrainian army is ruined by efforts of pro-Russian, ukrainophobes, criminal former Ukrainian rulers.And need many years to restore all that was destroyed and robbed

[Manifest Destiny]

Give your country back to the Native Americans then :)

You didn't answer my question.

[awyr dywyll]

Why would they stay if they're more loyal to Russia than Ukraine?

Because their bosses realized that their criminal authority in Ukraine comes to an end and only way to survive for them is destroy the country into pieces

[awyr dywyll]

Well awyr dywyll, good luck to you. Those Russian-speakers won't give in to Kiyev that easily. And if they decide to play nasty, Russia will intervene decisively. And NATO won't do fuck-all.

We'll see

[Yaroslav]

The genocide is about to start. Putin must respond with force, and I'm sure he will.

[silentkiller]

Today, Putin said that Ukraine will have to pay an advance forward for pre-calculated amount of gas. He also said that he regretted the decision. More Kiev junta takes wrong decisions, the better for my relatives living in Donetsk. If what happened on Maidan was a revolution then it would be necessary to shoot all current politicians of Ukraine. But in reality, one corrupt clan was replaced by another one. Now the Nazis want to suppress the Russians in the Southeast? Okay, but this is fraught with getting more complicated situation. On the one hand, I feel sad for all that's happening to the people in the South East, but on the other hand I'm glad because the point of no return is almost passed, even now the Nazis can not appease the wrath of the people with empty promises. I hope that soon the quasistate called Ukraine will cease to exist.

[Teyrn]

Give your country back to the Native Americans then :)

They're raking in the dough these days from the palefaces with cheap smokes, fireworks and gambling casinos. :p

[Sarmatian]

No, there's another explanation: These "patriots" didn't go to school and knew nothing about this region and their parents forgot to tell'em that it is part of Ukraine, until their Cremlin masters reminded them of who they belong to.


Ancestral homeland of these bastards is prison!

Since when?

[Yaroslav]

Today, Putin said that Ukraine will have to pay an advance forward for pre-calculated amount of gas. He also said that he regretted the decision. More Kiev junta takes wrong decisions, the better for my relatives living in Donetsk. If what happened on Maidan was a revolution then it would be necessary to shoot all current politicians of Ukraine. But in reality, one corrupt clan was replaced by another one. Now the Nazis want to suppress the Russians in the Southeast? Okay, but this is fraught with getting more complicated situation. On the one hand, I feel sad for all that's happening to the people in the South East, but on the other hand I'm glad because the point of no return is almost passed, even now the Nazis can not appease the wrath of the people with empty promises. I hope that soon the quasistate called Ukraine will cease to exist.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmweLBzWcHM

[Sarmatian]

Yes, unfortunately today Ukrainian army is ruined by efforts of pro-Russian, ukrainophobes, criminal former Ukrainian rulers.And need many years to restore all that was destroyed and robbed

:picard2:

I've heard to propaganda in Ukraine is so intense it will make Goebbels jealous. Now I see it myself.

For the last 20 years Ukrainian army was de-facto under control of NATO advisers that were consistently and methodically dismantling everything they could get their hands on. That's how your country was ruined, deal with it.

[silentkiller]

Yes, he's right.
Today I saw video of resistance from Lugansk (http://ustre.am/:36OpB).
Spokesman said that officials in Kiev are surprised that there's no single Ukrainian flag in the crowd. Some person asked: "Why the fuck is it needed?" (Нахуй он нужен)

[silentkiller]

А lot of swear words, but he says exactly what I think.


http://youtu.be/cibwZ92YuQE

[Yaroslav]

I hope that soon the quasistate called Ukraine will cease to exist.

http://i59.tinypic.com/13zubzr.jpg

[Loki]

http://i59.tinypic.com/13zubzr.jpg

Very sensible map.

[awyr dywyll]

А lot of swear words, but he says exactly what I think.



Bravo! really sorry that i can't vote for this video more than 1 time. ))) Great clear picture how should look like human mass loyal to the Russian tsar all over the ex-USSR

Stupid, ignorant,thinking just how to warm their ass by freebie gas, drunk or junked up and full of hatred towards their compatriots, but considering themself as kinsman with agressors of their own countriy

[awyr dywyll]

http://i59.tinypic.com/13zubzr.jpg

Don't hope! Poland, Romania and Hungary are on immeasurably higher stage of development than Russia, to think in those primitive categories.

[awyr dywyll]

Since when?

"Since when" what? When they have known that they live in Ukraine? Or when gopota moved to the big policy?

[awyr dywyll]

:picard2:

I've heard to propaganda in Ukraine is so intense it will make Goebbels jealous. Now I see it myself.

For the last 20 years Ukrainian army was de-facto under control of NATO advisers that were consistently and methodically dismantling everything they could get their hands on. That's how your country was ruined, deal with it.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: Goebbels together with Molotov are small, naive children as compared with present Russian propanda machine

[silentkiller]

Bravo! really sorry that i can't vote for this video more than 1 time. ))) Great clear picture how should look like human mass loyal to the Russian tsar all over the ex-USSR

Stupid, ignorant,thinking just how to warm their ass by freebie gas, drunk or junked up and full of hatred towards their compatriots, but considering themself as kinsman with agressors of their own countriy

Russian tsar? Come on. Again?

[IceSwan]

А lot of swear words, but he says exactly what I think.


http://youtu.be/cibwZ92YuQE
yup, he is right. thats smart young man. everything is not yet hopeless in ukraine

[Sarmatian]

"Since when" what? When they have known that they live in Ukraine? Or when gopota moved to the big policy?

Is it really hard to understand the bold selection in the quote?

Since when the regions of Donetsk, Lugansk and Kharkov became parts of Ukraine?

[Den Pobedy]

Overthrowing a government isn't the same as separatism.

Overthrowing the government with the support of foreign powers is the essence of treason.And the entire world is make up of peoples that have broken away from others and formed separate states are joined other states.

[Den Pobedy]

Exactly. So why should they stay in Ukraine for generations if they have no loyalty to the country? I'm sure the Ukrainian government would be happy to allow them to go back to Russia, the land of their ancestors.

Trying to understand Europe with US/settler thinking won't work. In the US you had people from many ethnic cultures mix together an form a new people.And movement from one area to another is accepted as normal.In Europe people have lived in a particular area as an ethnic population for many centuries.The feeling for their area and people is almost sacred.

[awyr dywyll]

Russian tsar? Come on. Again?

Yes, tsar, monarch, emperor, sultan, padishah, chief of Apaches, master Yoda but not president, anyone else but not president

[awyr dywyll]

Is it really hard to understand the bold selection in the quote?

Since when the regions of Donetsk, Lugansk and Kharkov became parts of Ukraine?

Since end of the Civil War or early 1920's years.

[Sarmatian]

Since end of the Civil War or early 1920's years.

So how can you claim it to be an Ukrainian region if it's part of Ukraine for less than 100 years only? Local population can't become majority Ukrainian in such a short period of time.

But the crisis of today it's not about the fact that Moscow have more rights to claim Lugansk and Donetsk than Kiev. It's about the fact that Kiev had over 20 years to build a country which all the different people that live there would call their home and it's failed miserably. How could you explain me the fact that people that were born in Ukraine feel threatened by their own compatriots so much they want to join other country? How can you explain the fact that one of the biggest war criminals of WWII is an idol in modern Ukraine, his ideology is officially used by some large political movement with claim for seats in government, his portraits were all over Maidan and were cheered by crowd with enthusiasm? Why is that armed gangs of neo-Nazis running openly all over Kiev and beating random people in a broad daylight?

You accusing Russia of intentions to seize more of Ukrainian lands but I'm yet to hear anything like that from Russian officials. In fact Putin clearly stated Russia have no interest in annexation of any other parts of Ukraine. Some Russian parliamentarians made some bold claims on the matter but it's their job to voice different opinions and none of them is making any real decisions. It's your own people want to run away from all that crap your junta created. It's your own people asking Putin to save them from real threats coming from banderovtsi.

[awyr dywyll]

So how can you claim it to be an Ukrainian region if it's part of Ukraine for less than 100 years only? Local population can't become majority Ukrainian in such a short period of time.
Existence of Ukraine as an independence state just about 22 years ago, so my country has a right to exist less than Donetsk region as part of Ukraine in yours? Let's see at this situation from another side, Donetsk is about 100 years exist as part of Ukraine so why this region must become a part of Russia today? What is the legal basis for this?


But the crisis of today it's not about the fact that Moscow have more rights to claim Lugansk and Donetsk than Kiev. It's about the fact that Kiev had over 20 years to build a country which all the different people that live there would call their home and it's failed miserably.
It's not the problem of Moscow government! If some people do feel uncomfortable in Ukraine so let them go to Russia


How could you explain me the fact that people that were born in Ukraine feel threatened by their own compatriots so much they want to join other country?
counterquestion: why these "Russian patriots" woke up just know? Where were they for all 100 years?


How can you explain the fact that one of the biggest war criminals of WWII is an idol in modern Ukraine, his ideology is officially used by some large political movement with claim for seats in government, his portraits were all over Maidan and were cheered by crowd with enthusiasm? Why is that armed gangs of neo-Nazis running openly all over Kiev and beating random people in a broad daylight?
If Russia continues in the same vein, all of the Ukrainians will become ultra-nationalists! Let's see at this situation from another point of view. Ukrainian nationalists against Russian neo-nazis, Bandera against the biggest war criminal Stalin, Ukrainian nation against Russian invaders etc etc etc


You accusing Russia of intentions to seize more of Ukrainian lands but I'm yet to hear anything like that from Russian officials. In fact Putin clearly stated Russia have no interest in annexation of any other parts of Ukraine.
Yes i know, Putin is a great joker!


It's your own people want to run away from all that crap your junta created. It's your own people asking Putin to save them from real threats coming from banderovtsi.
For the time being Ukrainian citizenz of Eastern part of country need the protect from Russian neo-nazis

[Sarmatian]

Existence of Ukraine as an independence state just about 22 years ago, so my country has a right to exist less than Donetsk region as part of Ukraine in yours? Let's see at this situation from another side, Donetsk is about 100 years exist as part of Ukraine so why this region must become a part of Russia today? What is the legal basis for this?

It's not the problem of Moscow government! If some people do feel uncomfortable in Ukraine so let them go to Russia

The legal basis was developed by NATO in case of Kosovo. Albanians were unhappy about Serbs and nobody told them to go to Albania. Instead they have had a referendum and seceded from Serbia. US created this precedent so all your 'gratitude' on the matter should be addressed to them. Parts of Ukraine (not Russia!!!) just following already established practice.


counterquestion: why these "Russian patriots" woke up just know?

Because until recently an animal called 'banderovets' was only found in the forests of Galitchina. Today the entire Kiev is one big zoo of banderovtsi.


If Russia continues in the same vein, all of the Ukrainians will become ultra-nationalists! Let's see at this situation from another point of view. Ukrainian nationalists against Russian neo-nazis, Bandera against the biggest war criminal Stalin, Ukrainian nation against Russian invaders etc etc etc

Bandera was Ukrainian nationalist? Good joke. He wasn't even Ukrainian citizen as he was born in Austro-Hungary.

I really hope one day you'll wake up and feel extremely ashamed for calling Russians invaders in Ukraine. No sarcasm.


For the time being Ukrainian citizenz from Eastern part of country need the protect from Russian neo-nazis

Can you name me those Russian neo-Nazis threatening Ukraine?

[Manifest Destiny]

Overthrowing the government with the support of foreign powers is the essence of treason.And the entire world is make up of peoples that have broken away from others and formed separate states are joined other states.

Whether or not treason is a bad thing depends on the government. And I'm aware that people breaking away from existing states to form new ones is a fair common occurrence. My point is that it's not the same as overthrowing a government while maintaining the existing borders.

[Manifest Destiny]

Trying to understand Europe with US/settler thinking won't work. In the US you had people from many ethnic cultures mix together an form a new people.And movement from one area to another is accepted as normal.In Europe people have lived in a particular area as an ethnic population for many centuries.The feeling for their area and people is almost sacred.

White people have been living in America for many centuries. It's not hard for an American to understand attachment to a particular piece of land.

[Manifest Destiny]

The legal basis was developed by NATO in case of Kosovo. Albanians were unhappy about Serbs and nobody told them to go to Albania. Instead they have had a referendum and seceded from Serbia. US created this precedent so all your 'gratitude' on the matter should be addressed to them. Parts of Ukraine (not Russia!!!) just following already established practice.

And Russia opposed Kosovo's independence. They don't seem to mind ethnic separatism when it benefits them, do they?

[awyr dywyll]

The legal basis was developed by NATO in case of Kosovo. Albanians were unhappy about Serbs and nobody told them to go to Albania. Instead they have had a referendum and seceded from Serbia. US created this precedent so all your 'gratitude' on the matter should be addressed to them. Parts of Ukraine (not Russia!!!) just following already established practice.

This is not thread about Kosovo! You may make these claims to special one. And i'll see what Albanians will unswer to you:ranger:



Because until recently an animal called 'banderovets' was only found in the forests of Galitchina. Today the entire Kiev is one big zoo of banderovtsi.
Actually your ignorant Russian tsar called them "Benderovtsi" :lmao so all claims to the poor inhabitants of city Bender. Ukrainian "benderovtsi" exist just on Russain state TV.



I really hope one day you'll wake up and feel extremely ashamed for calling Russians invaders in Ukraine. No sarcasm.
Rather Dnieper will flow in the opposite direction


Can you name me those Russian neo-Nazis threatening Ukraine?
People's governor of Donetsk together with their gang and even his wife:D

[silentkiller]

Yes, tsar, monarch, emperor, sultan, padishah, chief of Apaches, master Yoda but not president, anyone else but not president

lol

[Sarmatian]

And Russia opposed Kosovo's independence. They don't seem to mind ethnic separatism when it benefits them, do they?

It doesn't matter if Russia opposed it. The legal precedent was set so if it was fine with one country it's fine with everyone else.

[Sarmatian]

This is not thread about Kosovo! You may make these claims to special one. And i'll see what Albanians will unswer to you:ranger:

Are you stupid? You asked what was the legal basis for secession of Crimea and why wouldn't people that unhappy about current Ukrainian government move to Russia. I answered you. It's called Common law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law) when once precedent is set in one case a similar issue can be resolved in exactly same manner.


Actually your ignorant Russian tsar called them "Benderovtsi" :lmao so all claims to the poor inhabitants of city Bender. Ukrainian "benderovtsi" exist just on Russain state TV.

Oh right. And all those portraits of Bandera on the streets of Kiev's center are just games of my imagination.


People's governor of Donetsk together with their gang and even his wife:D

So if it's just a few people why won't allow them to have a referendum in the region? Since majority, as you trying to say, support Ukraine let them have their say and shut this 'Russian neo-Nazi gang' once and for all. What are you afraid of?

[RussiaPrussia]

Don't hope! Poland, Romania and Hungary are on immeasurably higher stage of development than Russia, to think in those primitive categories.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD/countries/1W-HU-RO-PL-RU?display=graph

really? you gave me a good laugh

[RussiaPrussia]

And Russia opposed Kosovo's independence. They don't seem to mind ethnic separatism when it benefits them, do they?

and who started the process? Its the west with their NGOs who just wanted to overthrow another democratic goverment with extremist forces.

[awyr dywyll]

Are you stupid? You asked what was the legal basis for secession of Crimea and why wouldn't people that unhappy about current Ukrainian government move to Russia. I answered you. It's called Common law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law) when once precedent is set in one case a similar issue can be resolved in exactly same manner.

I'm acquainted with Russian diplomatic legerdemain very well. I'd tell you what should to do with this "precedent", but i won't. I'm affraid to be banned here


Oh right. And all those portraits of Bandera on the streets of Kiev's center are just games of my imagination.
I've already said. Bandera vs Stalin, some people in Ukraine hold the portrait of Bandera and there's a official propaganda of Stalin in Russia, so what's the problem? Every people has right to choose a hero for themselves
http://s020.radikal.ru/i714/1404/75/33b97d6e4fc3.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)

And yes "benderian" Ukraine is just your imagination



So if it's just a few people why won't allow them to have a referendum in the region? Since majority, as you trying to say, support Ukraine let them have their say and shut this 'Russian neo-Nazi gang' once and for all. What are you afraid of?
Firstly it is necessary to kick out neo-nazis, "tourists", and "mysterious green armed humanoids" from occupied lands and only then talk about referendums.

[awyr dywyll]

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD/countries/1W-HU-RO-PL-RU?display=graph

really? you gave me a good laugh

I'm talking about civilized international relations between countries. It doesn't have to do with Russia. This pseudo-empire has lagged behind even Eastern Europe for about 150-200 years

[Sarmatian]

I'm acquainted with Russian diplomatic legerdemain very well.

Wow, you must be high ranking diplomat then, right?


I've already said. Bandera vs Stalin, some people in Ukraine hold the portrait of Bandera and there's a official propaganda of Stalin in Russia, so what's the problem?.

No problem mate. It's just the fact these two men are bit different. With all his negative qualities and actions Stalin is the man who created one of the most powerful states that won the most brutal and devastating war in the history of humanity. For that fact alone he deserves a credit. Bandera was nothing but a thug from Carpatian forests only capable of murder and rape.

However there are very few people in Russia idolizing Stalin, most view him as no more than just a historical fact. Meanwhile the image Bandera seems to be worshipped more and more all over Ukraine.


Every people has right to choose a hero for themselves.

Do you really believe you got to chose your hero? It's chosen for you already by others. Your very own SBU has been surrendered to US without a fight and now your country's leaders are jumping as CIA telling them to.

http://niqnaq.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/08092013-1.jpg

http://niqnaq.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/08092013-2.jpg

http://niqnaq.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/450x300.jpg


And yes "benderian" Ukraine is just your imagination.

Stop putting words in my mouth, I've never called them that and you know it. If you have no facts to prove me wrong at least have a decency not to fall into lies and hypocrisy.


Firstly it is necessary to kick out neo-nazis, "tourists", and "mysterious green armed humanoids" from occupied lands and only then talk about referendums.

Interesting. So for you a referendum is only fair if you'll remove (genocide out?) all those that disagree first, right? Flawless logic.

But why am I surpirsed? After all maniacal tendencies seems to be a norm for modern Ukraine

http://static.oper.ru/data/site/avaks2.jpg

[awyr dywyll]

No problem mate. It's just the fact these two men are bit different. With all his negative qualities and actions Stalin is the man who created one of the most powerful states that won the most brutal and devastating war in the history of humanity. For that fact alone he deserves a credit. Bandera was nothing but a thug from Carpatian forests only capable of murder and rape.
However there are very few people in Russia idolizing Stalin, most view him as no more than just a historical fact. Meanwhile the image Bandera seems to be worshipped more and more all over Ukraine.
Stalin should be at a Nurnberg process as accused together with Nazi leaders. Not just beacuse he was one of the instigator of the war, but as culprit of death of millions Soviet people, accomplice of Hitler, war criminal and violator of international law.

However there are very few people in Russia idolizing Stalin, most view him as no more than just a historical fact. Meanwhile the image Bandera seems to be worshipped more and more all over Ukraine.
Stalin face frequently seen on the Russian streets than Bandera in Ukraine, they can't even compare


Do you really believe you got to chose your hero? It's chosen for you already by others. Your very own SBU has been surrendered to US without a fight and now your country's leaders are jumping as CIA telling them to.
Not only CIA, you forgot Jewish-Masonic backstage and another enemies which tells you Kremlin propaganda


Stop putting words in my mouth, I've never called them that and you know it. If you have no facts to prove me wrong at least have a decency not to fall into lies and hypocrisy.
Ignorant Russian tsar Vladimir IV calls us "benderovtsi", what can i do? He is like softhead, normal people don't take hum seriously except zombied part of Russians and some odballs from the West


Interesting. So for you a referendum is only fair if you'll remove (genocide out?) all those that disagree first, right? Flawless logic.
What is the genocide are you talking about? And what's the referendum? Crimean special operation?


But why am I surpirsed? After all maniacal tendencies seems to be a norm for modern Ukraine
People in Ukaraine begin to rage, nothing surprising

[Sarmatian]

Stalin face frequently seen on the Russian streets than Bandera in Ukraine, they can't even compare

Where did you get this shit from? Are you insane? How long time do you spend in Russia in a year to make such generalizations?


Not only CIA, you forgot Jewish-Masonic backstage and another enemies which tells you Kremlin propaganda

What are you on about? I gave you a physical evidence of involvement of high ranking US official in the closed ceremony held by Ukrainian security service. This fact alone can only mean one thing: today SBU is run by US/CIA.


Ignorant Russian tsar Vladimir IV calls us "benderovtsi", what can i do? He is like softhead, normal people don't take hum seriously except zombied part of Russians and some odballs from the West

The way Putin calling them does not make it irrelevant. Idolizing a WWII criminal at the state level is a perfect illustration of radical ideology dominating among modern Ukrainian youth.


What is the genocide are you talking about? And what's the referendum? Crimean special operation?

Is it so hard for you to follow the line of discussion? I've asked you why don't you allow South-Eastern regions to have a referendum. You replied


Firstly it is necessary to kick out neo-nazis, "tourists", and "mysterious green armed humanoids" from occupied lands and only then talk about referendums.

I assume you're talking about Donetsk, Lugansk and Kharkov and asked does that means you're going to genocide all pro-Russians in these regions before allowing them to have a referendum?


People in Ukaraine begin to rage, nothing surprising

Rage is one thing. Calling for genocide in public is very different and in fact a criminal offense in every civilized country. Apparently it's a norm in Ukraine.

[awyr dywyll]

Where did you get this shit from? Are you insane? How long time do you spend in Russia in a year to make such generalizations?
http://s019.radikal.ru/i627/1404/9a/b41f5da9edfc.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)http://s020.radikal.ru/i709/1404/f7/3d26bed4b69f.jpg (http://www.radikal.ru)


What are you on about? I gave you a physical evidence of involvement of high ranking US official in the closed ceremony held by Ukrainian security service. This fact alone can only mean one thing: today SBU is run by US/CIA.
You're talking about some CIA visitors in Ukraine, but we had as president one FSB agent for the last 4 years. We should invite not just some visitors from CIA, but entire CIA operating base for intelligence actions in Russia. Then help to build NATO military base just right in Crimea and drive out Russians from there many years ago. And renunciation of our nuclear weapon was a mistake also


The way Putin calling them does not make it irrelevant. Idolizing a WWII criminal at the state level is a perfect illustration of radical ideology dominating among modern Ukrainian youth.
I didn't understand fans of Bandera in the past, today i begin to realize that they're not so wrong.


Is it so hard for you to follow the line of discussion? I've asked you why don't you allow South-Eastern regions to have a referendum. You replied

I assume you're talking about Donetsk, Lugansk and Kharkov and asked does that means you're going to genocide all pro-Russians in these regions before allowing them to have a referendum?
What is the genocide????????!!!!!!!!! What are you talkin about!? Stop watching RTR and 1st channel! Only pro-Russian people which subjected to "genocide" were cleptocratic FSB Ukrainian agents, president and his criminal gang!

So it is you want to avoid from unswering, what that is the referendum just right after the military occupation? Is it some Putins novelty?


Rage is one thing. Calling for genocide in public is very different and in fact a criminal offense in every civilized country. Apparently it's a norm in Ukraine.
Only one genocide is happening in Ukraine last three centuries up to these days. It is genocide of Ukrainians by the Russian empire