Red hair more common in Mongols than half Asians . Even Khan had red hair / blue eyes

[ButlerKing]

Something don't make sense here. ( it bothers my mind )

Isn't someone who is black hair/ dark brown eyes more dominant than someone with blonde hair/blue eyes? that is why in most cases the child inherits the darker genes but the genetics is so funny in Mongolian's case . I'm trying to figure out and it's actually quite interesting. I though red hair is the most weakest gene because even for European it's a rare trait? Shouldn't it be the more Indo-European blood the more chance of having red hair?

Red hair is obviously a Indo-European trait in Mongols yet even half Asians don't have it that much where as the Mongols and Siberian that only have 5-19% white genes have it more? strangely enough for some odd reason the Hmong of Southeast Asia also have it.

Red hair in Eurasians ( 1/2 white to 3/4 White )

Most Eurasians who are 1/2 Asian + 1/2 White always have dark hair/dark eyes. Some do have blonde hair, brown hair, blue eyes, eyes but they always have Caucasoid physical structure. Those who are 1/4 Asian + 3/4 always have blue eyes, blonde hair, brown hair but even red hair is almost non-existant.


Here are some red hair + blue/ dark green hazel eyes Eurasians


Half Asian
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPwnxpgyQPXIw6mC7D2kR_q7fnA5l9P UpNT3wOzf98qwdNU7BZjQ

Half Asian
http://i60.tinypic.com/27wxbwk.jpg

Half Asian
http://static-p2.photoxpress.com/jpg/00/00/66/21/400_F_662107_o6dvE1gzm5kYznaOCdREB7m5EBTvi1_PXP.jp g

Half Asian

http://www.candicewongphotography.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/candice_wong_photography_-0077eEPFCF-980wm.jpg
Half Asian

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1TSGPro2UM0/UYVAvl7qiCI/AAAAAAAAT-M/5B8gIYUCFyI/s1600/_DSC0380.jpg


It's so rare even this half Asian kid said he never met another half Asian with red hair before


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JIlUQXnCi8

[ButlerKing]

Now here is the strange thing. I've searched for Mongolian and Mongolian Kazakhs with red hair and very easy. Yet for Eurasians it's so hard.


I've only saw two Hmong with red hair. They have no european/caucasian genes. One is this fat women the other was by chance when I saw a Hmong refugee in Laos war but had only one eye left.

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s283/shortypai/paisdigital043.jpg



Now look at Mongolians with red hair. Why is this more common than Half Asians?


http://i58.tinypic.com/262prau.jpg]
http://i61.tinypic.com/9910lc.jpg

Odegei Khan had such traits too

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/YuanEmperorAlbumOgedeiPortrait.jpg
http://i59.tinypic.com/2nbvsc3.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/14cablk.jpg
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/Duo9t6jJkAE/mqdefault.jpghttp://www.1st-attractive.com/imagegirl/1050_38329_2.jpg
https://img.4plebs.org/boards/pol/image/1395/80/1395805690615.jpg

[ButlerKing]

http://i62.tinypic.com/9gf0yf.jpghttp://i60.tinypic.com/5zlawi.jpg

[Insuperable]

http://i59.tinypic.com/2nbvsc3.jpg[i

This are Kazakhs not Mongolians

[Prisoner Of Ice]

White genocide.

[ButlerKing]

What are the explanations for red hair being more common in Mongols, Siberians than in Eurasians?

[Insuperable]

What are the explanations for red hair being more common in Mongols, Siberians than in Eurasians?

Yeah lets post sourceless photos of several people and claim something

[ButlerKing]

White genocide.


That's not what I'm asking. I want to know why is red hair more common in the Mongolian/Siberian population who only have a mere 5-19% Caucasian genes vs Half Asians who have 50% Caucasian gene?

Look how easy it is to find red hair but for Eurasians is extremely hard


http://www.1st-attractive.com/imagegirl/1050_38329_2.jpg
http://www.loveme.com/images/p81861-1.jpg

[Smaug]

I highly doubt it.

[ButlerKing]

Yeah lets post photos of several people and claim something

Even the udmurts who only have 78% European genes but 22% ( variance 15 - 36% ) Mongoloid admixture have the highest red hair of European ethnicities


http://russianpickle.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/udmurt_people_red.jpg

[Insuperable]

Even the udmurts who only have 78% European genes but 22% ( variance 15 - 36% ) Mongoloid admixture have the highest red hair of European ethnicities


http://russianpickle.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/udmurt_people_red.jpg

And yeah lets try to avoid my post

Come on Asian mongrel stop pretending to be British

[ButlerKing]

And yeah lets try to avoid my post

Come on Asian mongrel stop pretending to be British


Instead of accusing me with "pretending to be british" bullshit why don't you offer a good explanation.

For example is red hair actually one of the strongest color hair gene but just haven't spread much? I mean red hair people don't mate much which led to the confusion their weak and recessive to dark hair genes?

[ButlerKing]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_F93TM_vnf6M/Rv_rYNxqDTI/AAAAAAAAAKc/qTqU-_cy0Pw/s320/DSC00540.JPG
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/blocker/likewhat.jpg

[ButlerKing]

This are Kazakhs not Mongolians

THESE ARE ARE CALLED " KAZAKH MONGOLIANS ".

[Fire Haired]

What evidence is there that Kenhis Kahn was a redhead? I really doubt there is any red hair that has non west Eurasian origin. It is a mystery where red hair comes from since it only gets above 1% in western Europe(Germans, Celts, Italians), Volga-Ural area of Russia, and probably bronze-iron age Indo Iranians and Tocherians(mummies, art, and writing proves it existed in them and that they were known for it). Since red hair exists in west Asia and north-west Africa(not just in Indo Iranian speakers), including people who have no evidence or pre Neolithic European ancestry like Samartians, red hair may have existed at an extremely low frequencies in very early west Eurasians over 30,000 years ago. Red hair may have gotten above 1% in Mesolithic/Upper Palaeolithic (east?)Europeans or later during the Neolithic and early metal ages with probably east Europeans who had mixed Mesolithic/Upper Palaeolithic European and Siberian(ANE, west eurasian and no relations to east asians), and Neolithic near eastern farmer ancestry.

[Insuperable]

THESE ARE ARE CALLED " KAZAKH MONGOLIANS ".

Why do you like to manipulate with data and lie? They have nothing to do with Mongolians at all. They are Chinese Kazaks dumbass.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200508/08/eng20050808_200940.html

[ButlerKing]

What evidence is there that Kenhis Kahn was a redhead? I really doubt there is any red hair that has non west Eurasian origin. It is a mystery where red hair comes from since it only gets above 1% in western Europe(Germans, Celts, Italians), Volga-Ural area of Russia, and probably bronze-iron age Indo Iranians and Tocherians(mummies, art, and writing proves it existed in them and that they were known for it). Since red hair exists in west Asia and north-west Africa(not just in Indo Iranian speakers), including people who have no evidence or pre Neolithic European ancestry like Samartians, red hair may have existed at an extremely low frequencies in very early west Eurasians over 30,000 years ago. Red hair may have gotten above 1% in Mesolithic/Upper Palaeolithic (east?)Europeans or later during the Neolithic and early metal ages with probably east Europeans who had mixed Mesolithic/Upper Palaeolithic European and Siberian(ANE, west eurasian and no relations to east asians), and Neolithic near eastern farmer ancestry.

A persian history wrote about his origins although they never met but I truely believe he came in contact with a Genghis Khan relative who told of his origin


Could it be that red hair is actually a strong gene that just didn't interbreed much? I mean most people don't want to mate with red hair people to be honest.


The udmurts would be considered Eurasian and yet they have more red hair than any european or 2nd after scotland

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/red_hair_map_europe.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Why do you like to manipulate with data and lie? They have nothing to do with Mongolians at all. They are Chinese Kazaks dumbass.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200508/08/eng20050808_200940.html

Because they were recent migrants from western Mongolia :rolleyes: For your info western Mongolia was not Mongolia in the past but no doubt they had genetic exchanges and had been part of Mongolia for many hundred years.

Mongolian Kazakhs in East Turkistan were only recent migrants before 1949 , nothing more and nothing less.

[ButlerKing]

I think red hair is actually a strong gene but due to the fact most people don't want to mate with red hair , people due to the fact they are mostly considered too unattractive leading it not very widespread of red haired today.

Why do you think people make fun of ginger? and get nick names like " Carrot head boy " or " Ginger pukes "?

[Insuperable]

Because they were recent migrants from western Mongolia :rolleyes: For your info western Mongolia was not Mongolia in the past but no doubt they had genetic exchanges and had been part of Mongolia for many hundred years.

Mongolian Kazakhs in East Turkistan were only recent migrants before 1949 , nothing more and nothing less.

You can play with the words all you want. They are either Chinese or Mongolian Kazaks and not Kazak Mongolians. Do you realize the difference between a Chinese Kazak and Kazak Chinese at all?

[ButlerKing]

You can play with the words all you want. They are either Chinese or Mongolian Kazaks and not Kazak Mongolians. Do you realize the difference between a Chinese Kazak and Kazak Chinese at all?


Listen even the freaking area that is today Kazakh-Chinese live is in northern part of East Turkistan used to be a Mongolian Kazakh area. It's a Kazakh autonomous region. They are from the same people as Kazakh Mongolia. Many Kazakhs Mongolian also migrated there.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/China_Xinjiang_Ili.svg/250px-China_Xinjiang_Ili.svg.png

[ButlerKing]

You can play with the words all you want. They are either Chinese or Mongolian Kazaks and not Kazak Mongolians. Do you realize the difference between a Chinese Kazak and Kazak Chinese at all?

Do you understand? they didn't originated from the Kazakhs of Kazakhstan but from Mongolia Kazakhs.

http://www.ling.hawaii.edu/ldtc/languages/kalmyk/Ili_Kazakh.png

[Insuperable]

Listen even if the freaking area that is today Kazakh-Chinese live is in northern part of East Turkistan used to be a Mongolian Kazakh area. It's a Kazakh autonomous region. They are from the same people as Kazakh Mongolia. Many Kazakhs Mongolian also migrated there.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/China_Xinjiang_Ili.svg/250px-China_Xinjiang_Ili.svg.png

Political, geographical stuff is not important. Those people are Kazakhs, not Mongolians, not Chinese. Live with it.

[Fire Haired]

A persian history wrote about his origins although they never met but I truely believe he came in contact with a Genghis Khan relative who told of his origin


Could it be that red hair is actually a strong gene that just didn't interbreed much? I mean most people don't want to mate with red hair people to be honest.


The udmurts would be considered Eurasian and yet they have more red hair than any european or 2nd after scotland

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/red_hair_map_europe.jpg

Udmurts are mainly a WHG-EEF-ANE mix like all Europeans, they just have much more east asian ancestry than most Europeans. Their red hair is from their modern European-like ancestry just like for Irish.

[ButlerKing]

Political, geographical stuff is not important. Those people are Kazakhs, not Mongolians, not Chinese. Live with it.

However Kazakhs of western Mongolia have been part of Mongolia for a very freaking long time almost 400 years after the Dzungar Khanate 1634–1758 defeated the Kazakh khanate in several battles in east Kazakhstan.

[Insuperable]

However Kazakhs of western Mongolia have been part of Mongolia for a very freaking long time almost 400 years after the Dzungar Khanate 1634–1758 defeated the Kazakh khanate in several battles in east Kazakhstan.

As I said: "Live with it". They are Mongolian Kazaks and not Kazak Mongolians.

[ButlerKing]

Udmurts are mainly a WHG-EEF-ANE mix like all Europeans, they just have much more east asian ancestry than most Europeans. Their red hair is from their modern European-like ancestry just like for Irish.

Yes but considering their substantial non-european ancestry vs full-blooded central Europeans these Udmurts still have way more red hair. Or perhaps what Udmurts north European ancestry.

maybe this is the reason.

North European ancestry* is the key to red hair?

Udmurt non-European DNA

29.6% Samoyedic
3.7% North Siberian
5.4% East Siberian

All these three components are dominant in Mongoloid races of Siberia like Yakuts, Nenets, Kets. The Mansi being the most Mongoloid physically in western Siberia have 30.9% Samoyedic.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/Genetika/evi-volga-1.png

[ButlerKing]

There is something I don't get either. Why is the Mansi who have almost the same genes as Udmurts in Caucasoid components ( but with an extra 5-10% Mongoloid component ) have such rare frequencies of red hair? I mean brown and blonder hair is common where as red hair so rare.


http://www.nba.fi/hanti/kuvat1/073_slide0073_image068.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Khanty people with red hair is also rare but is more frequent than other Uralics.

They are 55% Mongoloid on average with 38% Samoyedic component with the rest being east and north siberians. However I don't know if they are western Uralic or central. If they are western Uralic that means they are the most Mongoloid of western Uralic

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/hantti/x_9f870985.jpg

[ButlerKing]

After kept searching for data I came to a few conclusions.


1. Red hair could be due to some climate adaption

2. People confuse brown hair with red hair? or a mixture of brown with little red is confused with being red hair?

[Anglojew]

The contention is wrong. Red hair is also Uralic eg Udmurts who aren't Indo-European (and Semitic eg Jews and because Samaritans also have red hair sometimes we know this is an ancient trait. Although no doubt increased by Khazar and Scythian admixture once again proving the link to the steppes).

It's more likely it came from ancient pre-Mongol Siberians and was later diluted by Mongol invasions and/or the evolution of Mongols from proto to modern phenotypes of proto-caucasoids who inhabited the region in ancient times.

[ButlerKing]

The contention is wrong. Red hair is also Uralic eg Udmurts who aren't Indo-European (and Semitic eg Jews and because Samaritans also have red hair we know this is an ancient trait)

It's more likely it came from ancient pre-Mongol Siberians and was later diluted by Mongol invasions and/or the evolution of Mongols from proto to modern phenotypes of proto-caucasoids who inhabited the region in ancient times.


Yeah but we can all agree that is a Caucasoid gene. The question I'm asking why is it among Caucasoid people it is actually the Caucasoid with substantial Mongoloid blood have the most red hair? what about other Uralics that are purer but have rare frequencies of red hair.

Also why is red hair .....even though still rare in Mongolian and Buryarts is more common than real half breed Eurasians? I've seen so many Eurasians but I've only been able to find a few with reddish hair.

The Xiongnu were in North Mongolia before the Mongol tribes and even they were mix race but were 3/4 Asian and only 1/4 white on average. More Asian than average Eurasian but even claimed they had red hair and blue eyes

[ButlerKing]

The women in the middle have red hair. These are from Evenks Siberians.

http://hague6185.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/evenks_yakutia_06.jpg

[ButlerKing]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SgM32L9eFTY/UOV98gaDo4I/AAAAAAAAAf8/R1CUWwxEQp8/s760/enkhbaatar%2Bpainting%2Bin%2Btallinn%2Bstreet.JPG

[ButlerKing]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9886cI6Kv1roxnsyo1_500.jpg

[ButlerKing]

http://www.unitedbiblesocieties.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Happy-Mongolian-Christians-with-the-New-Testament.jpg

[ButlerKing]

http://www.1st-attractive.com/imagegirl/1050_29204_2.jpg

[Insuperable]

Yeah but we can all agree that is a Caucasoid gene. The question I'm asking why is it among Caucasoid people it is actually the Caucasoid with substantial Mongoloid blood have the most red hair? what about other Uralics that are purer but have rare frequencies of red hair.

Also why is red hair .....even though still rare in Mongolian and Buryarts is more common than real half breed Eurasians? I've seen so many Eurasians but I've only been able to find a few with reddish hair.

The Xiongnu were in North Mongolia before the Mongol tribes and even they were mix race but were 3/4 Asian and only 1/4 white on average. More Asian than average Eurasian but even claimed they had red hair and blue eyes

How can we answer something you cooked up in your head and by only posting pics of people you see fit which can varify your claim?

[ButlerKing]

How can we answer something you cooked up in your head and by only posting pics of people you see fit?

B.S, it's because you can't offer a good explanation. You see even you are confused, this is reality.

Why is finding Mongolians with red hair much easier than Eurasians?

How do you explain Udmurt having the highest frequencies of red hair despite having 15 - 36% Mongoloid blood?


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/11/25/1385379057549/aa4da306-d6e1-488d-80f4-41d521aa5e17-460x286.png

[Insuperable]

B.S, it's because you can't offer a good explanation. You see even you are confused, this is reality.

There is no explanation for a made up claim. Red hair is rare everywhere and I doubt someone, especially you travelled the whole Eurasia for observation of red head individuals.


Why is finding Mongolians with red hair much easier than Eurasians?

How do you explain Udmurt having the highest frequencies of red hair despite having 15 - 36% Mongoloid blood?


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/11/25/1385379057549/aa4da306-d6e1-488d-80f4-41d521aa5e17-460x286.png

Whatever I say you will just try to avoid and take with a grain of salt.

[ButlerKing]

There is no explanation for a made up claim. Red hair is rare everywhere and I doubt someone, especially you travelled the whole Eurasia for observation of red head individuals.


What made claim? the pictures I provided shows red hair in Mongolians and Mongolian Kazakh is definitely more common than in half Asians.


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7ueqbpvXE1qlsr3bo1_500.jpg




Whatever I say you will just try to avoid and take with a grain of salt.

Again you avoided a explantion for Udmurt despite I asked you for it. Just admit you're mind boggled by it too.

[Insuperable]

What made claim? the pictures I provided shows red hair in Mongolians and Mongolian Kazakh is definitely more common than in half Asians.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7ueqbpvXE1qlsr3bo1_500.jpg

That is what I am telling you retard. I can claim that there are more BMW's in Italy than in Spain and start posting pics of people in Italy who drive BMW's.

[ButlerKing]

That is what I am telling you retard. I can claim that there are more BMW's in Italy than in Spain and start posting pics of people in Italy who drive BMW's.


You freaking moron that is a pathetic comparison. You can go search for half Asians or Eurasians with red hair and this is all you can find but whereas when you search for Mongolians with red hair you have tons of pics that shows up. BMW is common everywhere.... stupid comparison.

http://mikeyzed3.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/p1010834.jpg

[Insuperable]

You freaking moron that is a pathetic comparison. You can go search for half Asians or Eurasians with red hair and this is all you can find but whereas when you search for Mongolians with red hair tons of pics shows up. BMW is common everywhere.... stupid comparison.

http://mikeyzed3.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/p1010834.jpg

It is not pathetic idiot, but perhaps you will understand what I am trying to say in a few days when your neurons start signalling. The bolded tells what kind of idiot you are Pakistani mongrel. BTW just because of you half of pics direct me to numerous threads you opened on several forums yet you wonder about engine search.

[ButlerKing]

It is not pathetic idiot, but perhaps you will understand what I am trying to say in a few days when your neurons start signalling. The bolded tells what kind of idiot you are Pakistani mongrel.

You can't explain anything......

http://thesqueakyrobot.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/dsc_0981.jpg

[Insuperable]

You can't explain anything......

http://thesqueakyrobot.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/dsc_0981.jpg

You can keep saying the same things, but there is nothing to explain.

[ButlerKing]

You can keep saying the same things, but there is nothing to explain.

Because we can't offer a good scientific explanation.

My conclusion is red hair is actually a strong gene but due to being aesthetically unappealing it didn't get to spread out much because they can't find mating partners. Gingers are generally unattractive and many have freckle in their faces.

[Longbowman]

The rather obvious answer is that if all Mongolians are 20% Caucasoid and many of them then carry light-haired genes, the 'correct combination' is more likely to crop up in Mongols than it is in a half-Asian (no light haired genes) half-European person.

[ButlerKing]

The rather obvious answer is that if all Mongolians are 20% Caucasoid and many of them then carry light-haired genes, the 'correct combination' is more likely to crop up in Mongols than it is in a half-Asian (no light haired genes) half-European person.

Well genetic proves otherwise.

Most Mongolians are actually from the East they have all but 7% Caucasian ancestry on average but if it's from the west than 17% on average

http://i57.tinypic.com/30u8tn6.png


Where as Turkey have 0% to 17.8% even red hair seems more rare.

http://i59.tinypic.com/30dfkzk.jpg

[ButlerKing]

The rather obvious answer is that if all Mongolians are 20% Caucasoid and many of them then carry light-haired genes, the 'correct combination' is more likely to crop up in Mongols than it is in a half-Asian (no light haired genes) half-European person.

The difference is in here. Eastern Mongolians are almost pure where as Western Mongolians being more mixed properly had genetic exchanges with the Kazakhs of western Mongolia who are only 60-75% Mongoloid.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2ppyhbm.jpg

[Hexachordia]

What are the explanations for red hair being more common in Mongols, Siberians than in Eurasians?

In chinese records, mongol armies had a lot of people with blue eyes.

[ButlerKing]

In chinese records, mongol armies had a lot of people with blue eyes.

Not the Mongol army I think those were senmu (conquered people of Mongols)

The Mongols army were described by persian historian being short, dark, very slanty eyes, dirty

[Lurker]

Butlerking, you're losing it. This thread isn't half as interesting as the ones you used to create before.

[Hexachordia]

Not the Mongol army I think those were senmu (conquered people of Mongols)

The Mongols army were described by persian historian being short, dark, very slanty eyes, dirty

No actual description from contemprary records says like short, dark, slanty eyes, but dirty yes. Is that a persian poet saying mongols were lice infested in patches.

[Hexachordia]

Not the Mongol army I think those were senmu (conquered people of Mongols)

The Mongols army were described by persian historian being short, dark, very slanty eyes, dirty

Mongol law ranked senmu as second to mongols, majority han chinese as third, southern chinese as lowest. The mongol versin of caste system.
Interestingly mongols did not invade Europe, the western most is around Baltic sea.

[ButlerKing]

No actual description from contemprary records says like short, dark, slanty eyes, but dirty yes. Is that a persian poet saying mongols were lice infested in patches.

Not just the Persians historian but even Arabs during the Mongol invasion of Baghdad described the invaders as being small people with small hands, slanty eyes, flat noses and with very thin beard.


And the funny thing Turks were described just like Mongols.


They were described just like Turks being slant eyes, red faces, flat noses.

A close companion of Muhammad recorded what he said about Turks


Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, flat noses and red faces "

Arab historians described the original Turks as "full-faced" and "squinty/small eyed". Sounds pretty mongoloid to me. Considering they came from Central Asia, this is no surprise at all.

One example of this is found in the book The History of the Prophets and Kings by historian Ibn Jarir al-Tabari.

"Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair."


http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/1//62/857/62857805_westernmongolianman.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3362/3450188994_a7b54b3b94_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3494/3899920825_a030c198cb_m.jpg
http://ryansingerphoto.com/pixelpost/images/20101119190136_img_1263-1.jpg
http://sedulia.blogs.com/sedulias_quotations/images/2007/12/13/kazakh_man_w_blue_eyes_by_sheilaz41.jpghttp://www.jamiebunchuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/mongolia-jm-01.jpeg
http://www.photosmongolia.com/gallery/912.jpg
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/old-mongolian-man-kharkhorin-mongolia-july-official-traditional-clothes-naadam-midsummer-festival-july-kharkhorin-32774189.jpg

[zhaoyun]

Ive been to Northern Xinjiang which is a Kazakh region. I can confirm there are many Asiatic looking people there who have red/blonde hair and light eyes. It is very surreal actually.

Most of these photos are of Kazakhs, they are not Mongols. Very very few Mongols have light hair/eyes, though they are very pale skinned.

[ButlerKing]

Ive been to Northern Xinjiang which is a Kazakh region. I can confirm there are many Asiatic looking people there who have red/blonde hair and light eyes. It is very surreal actually.

Most of these photos are of Kazakhs, they are not Mongols. Very very few Mongols have light hair/eyes, though they are very pale skinned.


This is nothing unserreal. They afterall have some Caucasian admixtures besides if pure Mongoloid Hmong have these traits than why wouldn't predominately Mongoloid people with some Caucasian admixture have it?

I think the enviroment and climate plays a huge role.


The Nenets. Despite being 68% Mongoloid and only 32% Caucasian have more blonde hair/ light eyes than most of south Europe like spain, greece, Italy.

Is nothing strange in my opinion. The Kazakhs and Mongolians have more caucasoid maternal DNA than male. I think maternal DNA gives them these light traits more than male.


http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/Asia/Kazakhwithlightcoloredhairandoreyeskz.jpg

[Hexachordia]

Not just the Persians historian but even Arabs during the Mongol invasion of Baghdad described the invaders as being small people with small hands, slanty eyes, flat noses and with very thin beard.


And the funny thing Turks were described just like Mongols.

They were described just like Turks being slant eyes, red faces, flat noses.

A close companion of Muhammad recorded what he said about Turks


Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Turks; people with small eyes, red faces "

Arab historians described the original Turks as "full-faced" and "squinty/small eyed". Sounds pretty mongoloid to me. Considering they came from Central Asia, this is no surprise at all.

One example of this is found in the book The History of the Prophets and Kings by historian Ibn Jarir al-Tabari.

"Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair."


http://img0.liveinternet.ru/images/attach/c/1//62/857/62857805_westernmongolianman.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3362/3450188994_a7b54b3b94_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3494/3899920825_a030c198cb_m.jpg
http://ryansingerphoto.com/pixelpost/images/20101119190136_img_1263-1.jpg
http://sedulia.blogs.com/sedulias_quotations/images/2007/12/13/kazakh_man_w_blue_eyes_by_sheilaz41.jpghttp://www.jamiebunchuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/mongolia-jm-01.jpeg
http://www.photosmongolia.com/gallery/912.jpg
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/old-mongolian-man-kharkhorin-mongolia-july-official-traditional-clothes-naadam-midsummer-festival-july-kharkhorin-32774189.jpg

There are many mongoloid female in turkish tribes, males are mostly caucasian. The more common mongoloid y-dna among western eurasia are N, Q, but most people like to denote them as being caucasoid in origin. Distribution of N, Q has not connection to mongol history, no contemprary records clear describ mongols as mongoloid, even mongols were partly mongoloid, I am sure they were multiracial like gypsies.

[Hexachordia]

Spiritclaymore?:rolleyes:

[Hexachordia]

This is nothing unserreal. They afterall have some Caucasian admixtures besides if pure Mongoloid Hmong have these traits than why wouldn't predominately Mongoloid people with some Caucasian admixture have it?

I think the enviroment and climate plays a huge role.


The Nenets. Despite being 68% Mongoloid and only 32% Caucasian have more blonde hair/ light eyes than most of south Europe like spain, greece, Italy.

Is nothing strange in my opinion


http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/Asia/Kazakhwithlightcoloredhairandoreyeskz.jpg

These people are fine, I have no problem with them. ;)

[ButlerKing]

There are many mongoloid female in turkish tribes, males are mostly caucasian. The more common mongoloid y-dna among western eurasia are N, Q, but most people like to denote them as being caucasoid in origin. Distribution of N, Q has not connection to mongol history, no contemprary records clear describ mongols as mongoloid, even mongols were partly mongoloid, I am sure they were multiracial like gypsies.


All the Mongolian tribes oirats, Buryats, Khalka have higher Caucasoid female DNA than males ...... where as most Turkic tribes except for Kazakh, Crimean Tatars, Turkmen and Uzbek of Iran and Afghan have more Caucasian male DNA than the female Caucasian DNA.


Mongolian male DNA is 3 times higher than Mongolian female DNA in Central Asia however Siberian mtDNA is 3 times higher in than Mongolian male DNA.


Even the Scythians had 25% Mongoloid mtDNA and only 12% Mongoloid Y-DNA. Central Asian have Mongoloid mtDNA mutations that Mongolian females lack.


The pazyryk culture shows males were mostly Mongoloid-Europoid and females were Caucasoid.

" Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid.[7] "

[Insuperable]

The Nenets. Despite being 68% Mongoloid and only 32% Caucasian have more blonde hair/ light eyes than most of south Europe like spain, greece, Italy.

Is nothing strange in my opinion
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af18/oditous2/Asia/Kazakhwithlightcoloredhairandoreyeskz.jpg

Again you just keep farting.

I can start posting dark haired nenets and start claiming something else in any case nobody can know for sure whether this claims are true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nenets.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Again you just keep farting.

I can start posting dark haired nenets and start claiming something else in any case nobody can know for sure whether this claims are true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nenets.jpg

Oh great you cherry picked the only few pictures where Nenets have black hair.


I din't say their common, they just have more light hair/light eyes than Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy (except the North Italy)


http://img2.custompublish.com/getfile.php/1279058.1332.wvvsuwuefw/Yasavey+Toronto+Sun_550x366.jpg
http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/nenets-students-must-learn-russian-maria-stenzel.jpg
http://alphapipe.imagefarm.s3.amazonaws.com/fwp0000614-Seretetto%20Tribe.jpg.jpg

[Hexachordia]

All the Mongolian tribes oirats, Buryats, Khalka have higher Caucasoid female DNA males.......................where as most Turkic tribes except for Kazakh, Crimean Tatars, Turkmen and Uzbek of Iran and Afghan have more Caucasian male DNA than the female Caucasian DNA.


Mongolian male DNA is 3 times higher than Mongolian female DNA in Central Asia however Siberian mtDNA is 3 times higher in than Mongolian male DNA.


Even the Scythians had 25% Mongoloid mtDNA and only 12% Mongoloid Y-DNA. Central Asian have Mongoloid mtDNA mutations that Mongolian females lack.


The pazyryk culture shows males were mostly Mongoloid-Europoid and females were Caucasoid.

" Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid.[7] "

Why are you crazy, like I said Mongols were the first communist empire led by that typical people. Of coures just like modern Soviets a lot of whites and asians envolved, my country is still a communist hellhole.
Mongols were multiracial, that does not make all people subhumans like Czeks and yugoslavians, Croats all had been occupied by soviets. We are all victims. Dont you see that? Himmler never claim chinese as mongols, he knew something we dio not. Get over it Herr Spiritclaymore.

[Insuperable]

Oh great you cherry picked the only few pictures where Nenets have black hair.
I din't say their common, they just have more light hair/light eyes than Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy (except the North Italy)

It wasn't my point to cherrypick as you do, just to show how slow you are for making way too big generalizations by relying on google search. Btw, it is not common nor it is very uncommon.

[ButlerKing]

http://alphapipe.imagefarm.s3.amazonaws.com/fwp0000263-Seretetto%20Tribe.jpg.jpg
http://www.russiamissions.com/Gallery/NenetsBoy2.jpg
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/rf-dudinka-05.jpg
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/60781000/jpg/_60781634_youngnenetsgirlsfromreindeerbrigadenumbe r4.jpg
http://photography.nationalgeographic.co.in/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/Photography/Images/POD/n/nenets-schoolboys-516997-sw.jpg
http://englishrussia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/152.jpg
http://russianow.washingtonpost.com/images/nomads.jpg
http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/rf-dudinka-06.jpg

[MINARDOWICZ]

Instead of accusing me with "pretending to be british" bullshit why don't you offer a good explanation.

For example is red hair actually one of the strongest color hair gene but just haven't spread much? I mean red hair people don't mate much which led to the confusion their weak and recessive to dark hair genes?

I gotta admit, you are not a dumb guy, but I do doubt you are English. I have just come to except that ;).

[ButlerKing]

It wasn't my point to cherrypick as you do, just to show how slow you are for making way too big generalizations by relying on google search. Btw, it is not common nor it is very uncommon.

I've already read what Eurogenes blog said. People of Uralic including Urdmuts, Khanty, Nenets have 20-30% more light hair and light eyes than South European.

[ButlerKing]

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/hantti/hjo3uq78094.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/hantti/hDKA4iJzM7M.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/hantti/x_9717c9b7.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/hantti/x_19bef751.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/hantti/x_6e45a22e.jpghttp://kazym.ethnic-tour.ru/kazym/images/d.jpg
http://www.desktopwallpaper2.com/desktop-wallpaper-home/Nenets-hd-picture-widescreen-wallpaper-1280x960-1-50ceefd51ff35-4527.jpg
http://img.index.hu/cikkepek/kultur/galeria/me18.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/hantti/skannaaminen0004.jpg

[Hexachordia]

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/hantti/hjo3uq78094.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/hantti/hDKA4iJzM7M.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/hantti/x_9717c9b7.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/hantti/x_19bef751.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/hantti/x_6e45a22e.jpghttp://kazym.ethnic-tour.ru/kazym/images/d.jpg
http://www.desktopwallpaper2.com/desktop-wallpaper-home/Nenets-hd-picture-widescreen-wallpaper-1280x960-1-50ceefd51ff35-4527.jpg
http://img.index.hu/cikkepek/kultur/galeria/me18.jpg
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x251/zemelmete/hantti/skannaaminen0004.jpg

More like the finns. Finns had been fierce fighter against the soviets. kudos.

[ButlerKing]

Why are you crazy, like I said Mongols were the first communist empire led by that typical people. Of coures just like modern Soviets a lot of whites and asians envolved, my country is still a communist hellhole.
Mongols were multiracial, that does not make all people subhumans like Czeks and yugoslavians, Croats all had been occupied by soviets. We are all victims. Dont you see that? Himmler never claim chinese as mongols, he knew something we dio not. Get over it Herr Spiritclaymore.

Original Mongols were pure Mongoloid they just inherited their Caucasoid DNA from the Xiongnu who were mix race but were predominately 3/4 Asian with only 1/4 White admixture. The original pure Mongoloid Mongolians expanded from the east and central of Mongolia closer to Manchuria and South Siberia.

Is Mongol a multicultural empire? yes but the ruler was Mongolian/Mongoloid, most of the army were Mongolian and mostly Turkic like Tuvans and Altay. It only started becoming multicultural when they invaded Europe.

[Insuperable]

Why are you crazy, like I said Mongols were the first communist empire led by that typical people. Of coures just like modern Soviets a lot of whites and asians envolved, my country is still a communist hellhole.
Mongols were multiracial, that does not make all people subhumans like Czeks and yugoslavians, Croats all had been occupied by soviets. We are all victims. Dont you see that? Himmler never claim chinese as mongols, he knew something we dio not. Get over it Herr Spiritclaymore.

Yugoslavia was never occupied by Soviets. They were loose allies. I fail to see what connections between subhumans, multiracial people and occupation have to do with his post btw.


I've already read what Eurogenes blog said. People of Uralic including Urdmuts, Khanty, Nenets have 20-30% more light hair and light eyes than South European.

Incredible, you managed to broad your scope. Care to post a link?

[Hexachordia]

These are the noble tribes, vikings liked the natives, lived with them for some time. :thumb001:

[ButlerKing]

More like the finns. Finns had been fierce fighter against the soviets. kudos.

Finns weren't great fighter and I can consider them European. Finns are only 6 - 12% Mongoloid with an average of only 9.3% Mongoloid.

Nenets are 55 to 77% with an average of 62% Mongoloid. Nenets are basically more closer to a Kazakh and Kyrgyz but with high North European ancestry where as Kazakh and Kyrgyz have slightly higher West Asian DNA than European.

[Hexachordia]

Yugoslavia was never occupied by Soviets. They were loose allies. I fail to see what connections between subhumans, multiracial people and occupation have to do with his post btw.

I mean mongols started communist destruction, they destroyed chinese ethnic cultural diversity, our current government has root in the mongols, I need to eradicate the root of the mongols. Yes,
mongols were a subhuman force, but not everyone in it are subhuman.

Mongol was not started by mongoloids, you will see those mongoloid tribes have nothing reminiscent of such a military prowess. Huns fought with chinese never successfully occupy northern territories, how can such deer herding people can fight China? No s thread of evidence proving mongols were purely mongoloid.

[ButlerKing]

The answer to light eyes/light hair is in the north European genes or it can even be mutations. Turkish people being the most Mongoloid influence people ( 5% to 22% ) of the Middle east also have the highest frequencies of light hair/light eyes because they share higher north european ancestry.


South Europeans also have north European genes but is predominated by South but I'm guessing northern genes is reponsible for south europeans light genes.


Nenets European components are almost all north European and only very little from the south.

http://stephandudeck.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/naryan-mar-0340.jpg?w=640
http://www.nba.fi/hanti/kuvat1/stipendiaattijamerja_565.jpg
http://www.lifeonthinice.org/data/photos/534_1nenets_01_18.jpg

[ButlerKing]

I mean mongols started communist destruction, they destroyed chinese ethnic cultural diversity, our current government has root in the mongols, I need to eradicate the root of the mongols. Yes,
mongols were a subhuman force, but not everyone in it are subhuman.

Mongol was not started by mongoloids, you will see those mongoloid tribes have nothing reminiscent of such a military prowess. Huns fought with chinese never successfully occupy northern territories, how can such deer herding people can fight China? No s thread of evidence proving mongols were purely mongoloid.

Of course they were started by Mongoloids. The Chinese never described the Mongolians as Donghu people but people like Xiongnu yes, the Donghu were described as being Caucasoid or Partial Caucasoid but partial Caucasoid is more likely because even Chinese today think uyghurs are pure Caucasians from the middle east when they are actually 52% Mongoloid and only 48% Caucasian.

If they were Caucasian why didn't the Chinese described Mongolians as Donghu?

[Hexachordia]

Of course they were started by Mongoloids. The Chinese never described the Mongolians as Donghu people but people like Xiongnu yes, the Donghu were described as being Caucasoid or Partial Caucasoid but partial Caucasoid is more likely because even Chinese today think uyghurs are pure Caucasians from the middle east when they are actually 52% Mongoloid and only 48% Caucasian.

If they were Caucasian why didn't the Chinese described Mongolians as Donghu?

Donghu people were aroun 500AD, LOL, there were a lot of whitefolks in donghu tribes they were absorbed during the 600AD in Wei dynasty. Mongols were neither mongoloid or caucasoid, but MULTIRACIAL
like today America.

We cannot blame every people in it, but we may blame the government.

[Hexachordia]

The answer to light eyes/light hair is in the north European genes or it can even be mutations. Turkish people being the most Mongoloid influence people ( 5% to 22% ) of the Middle east also have the highest frequencies of light hair/light eyes because they share higher north european ancestry.


South Europeans also have north European genes but is predominated by South but I'm guessing northern genes is reponsible for south europeans light genes.


Nenets European components are almost all north European and only very little from the south.

http://stephandudeck.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/naryan-mar-0340.jpg?w=640
http://www.nba.fi/hanti/kuvat1/stipendiaattijamerja_565.jpg
http://www.lifeonthinice.org/data/photos/534_1nenets_01_18.jpg

Turkish people is an assortment of stepe tribes, mixlings for 4000 years, not necessarily decending from mongol empire.

[ButlerKing]

Donghu people were aroun 500AD, LOL, there were a lot of whitefolks in donghu tribes they were absorbed during the 600AD in Wei dynasty. Mongols were neither mongoloid or caucasoid, but MULTIRACIAL
like today America.

We cannot blame every people in it, but we may blame the government.

Donghu was first described in 700 BC but were destroyed by Xiongnu in 150 BC. The Xiongnu were also considered Donghu in Chinese eyes but recent anthropology study showed they were just 2/3 Mongoloid and only 1/3 Caucasian on average. In other words they would have looked more like Kazakhs.

What you think is white is actually just Eurasians who can also look white. predominately Caucasoid skeleton disapeared after the Xiongnu


Even Scythians of Mongolia were mix race but were heavily Caucasian in appearance

" Another study by the same team, again from two Scytho-Siberian skeletons found in the Altai Republic, were phenotypically males "of mixed Euro-Mongoloid origin". One of the individuals was found to carry the F2a maternal lineage, and the other the D lineage, both of which are characteristic of "East Eurasian" populations.[24] "

The Scythians of East Europe were also mixed race.

There was no white folk. There were only 2 types of mix race groups after the Scythians in Mongolia were half Mongoloid and predominately Mongoloid with Caucasoid admixture in different degrees


When Chinese spoke of white people they properly mean't something like this. For example Half Korean half Canadian

http://star.koreandrama.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Julien-Kang2.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Is not like Chinese are going to say these half Asians are non-white looking.
I doubt most people today can even tell these Eurasians are half let alone people from the past.

It's not like they can claim these people as part of Mongoloid race they properly didn't even know what it is

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lumn5ohLLf1qhwdcyo1_1280.jpg
http://www.halfkorean.com/interviews/images/kang_denis_004.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm96/javabeans122/drama/2009/other/dream1.jpg

[zhaoyun]

Yeah, you're right, Han Chinese consider Eurasians to essentially just be White for the most part. Unless they are rather Asian looking.

[ButlerKing]

Yeah, you're right, Han Chinese consider Eurasians to essentially just be White for the most part. Unless they are rather Asian looking.

And the funny thing some Chinese (read by chance) think Uyghur are caucasoid races like afghans or Persians when in reality they are 52% Mongoloid.


Way before the time of Genghis Khan Mongolia was only inhabited by Mongoloid and predominately Mongoloid.

[Hexachordia]

Donghu was first described in 700 BC but were destroyed by Xiongnu in 150 BC. The Xiongnu were also considered Donghu in Chinese eyes but recent anthropology study showed they were just 2/3 Mongoloid and only 1/3 Caucasian on average. In other words they would have looked more like Kazakhs.

What you think is white is actually just Eurasians who can also look white. predominately Caucasoid skeleton disapeared after the Xiongnu


Even Scythians of Mongolia were mix race but were heavily Caucasian in appearance

" Another study by the same team, again from two Scytho-Siberian skeletons found in the Altai Republic, were phenotypically males "of mixed Euro-Mongoloid origin". One of the individuals was found to carry the F2a maternal lineage, and the other the D lineage, both of which are characteristic of "East Eurasian" populations.[24] "

The Scythians of East Europe were also mixed race.

There was no white folk. There were only 2 types of mix race groups after the Scythians in Mongolia were half Mongoloid and predominately Mongoloid with Caucasoid admixture in different degrees


When Chinese spoke of white people they properly mean't something like this. For example Half Korean half Canadian

http://star.koreandrama.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Julien-Kang2.jpg

Chinese knew white people, tocharyan tombs had bodies show half asian mixture, racemixing were not new things by 700BC, people without clear unique hair and eyes could be taken as simply chinese. There are some statues with caucasoid features found since 160AD, there is a new theory that one of famous chinese general Caocao was white, his role in chinese opera had been represented by a white face for hundrels of years.

[ButlerKing]

Chinese knew white people, tocharyan tombs had bodies show half asian mixture, racemixing were not new things by 700BC, people without clear unique hair and eyes could be taken as simply chinese. There are some statues with caucasoid features found since 160AD, there is a new theory that one of famous chinese general Caocao was white, his role in chinese opera had been represented by a white face for hundrels of years.


Caocao was not white. Because if he was there is no way Chinese wouldn't have described him as being Donghu because they did to describe very such people that had caucasoid appeareance (even if it's just 1/2 or 1/4 admixture). Why is that these people were never called Donghu?

Chinese massacre the Jie invaders because of the caucasian appearance although many theory suggests they were actually related with the Yeniseian

For example people like selkups are 63% Mongoloid but 37% Caucasian but are distinct enough

http://gublibrary.ru/pub/narody/nency/selkupy/selkup2.jpg
http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg489/pihkiksen/selkup/RY_2221-10_P_zps1b223248.jpg
http://foto.ravna.no/500/020201.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Turkish people is an assortment of stepe tribes, mixlings for 4000 years, not necessarily decending from mongol empire.

Turkish people are also Mongoloid-Caucasoid people.

As a result of Assimilation of millions of Balkans, Caucasus combined with Turkification of Greeks, Armenia, Kurd they diluted their DNA Mongoloid heavily.


Look at what anthropologist used to claim Turkish people in 1882 before the Turkish republic ( which called Turkey )

This is no surprise as they are 10-20% Mongoloid.

Anthropology

Further information: Turanid race

In 1882 Augustus Henry Keane said the Mongolic type included the following races: Tibetans, Burmese, Tai, Koreans, Japanese, Lu-Chu, Finno-Tatars and Malays.[149] Keane said the following peoples are mixed Mongolo-Caucasic varieties: Anatolian Turks, Uzbegs, and Tajiks of Turkestan.[149] Keane said the Kazaks are intermediate between the Túrki and Mongolian races.[149] Keane said the Mongolian race is best represented by the Buriats.[149]

Turanid race, the latter usage implies the existence of a Turanid racial type or "minor race", subtype of the Europid (Caucasian) race with Mongoloid admixtures, situated at the boundary of the distribution of the Mongoloid and Europid "great races".[150][151]


Noticed the similarity between this guy and this Turkish reporter
http://i.imgur.com/IhRMBIK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yEa2n7c.jpg?1


More purer original Ottoman Turks before their expansion. Not like the modern Turks which are result of Turkfication of many indegious groups and result of intermixing with million of slaves even most of the Ottoman sultans mothers were not Turks

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4113/4965008277_e37a0a42fa_z.jpghttp://farm5.staticflickr.com/4073/4786967199_a222b80cdb_z.jpghttp://farm4.staticflickr.com/3349/4568941366_75ea0ccb0e_z.jpg

[Hexachordia]

Caocao was not white. Because if he was there is no way Chinese wouldn't have described him as being Donghu because they did to describe very such people that had caucasoid appeareance (even if it's just 1/2 or 1/4 admixture). Why is that these people were never called Donghu?

Chinese massacre the Jie invaders because of the caucasian appearance although many theory suggests they were actually related with the Yeniseian

For example people like selkups are 63% Mongoloid but 37% Caucasian but are distinct enough

http://gublibrary.ru/pub/narody/nency/selkupy/selkup2.jpg
http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg489/pihkiksen/selkup/RY_2221-10_P_zps1b223248.jpg
http://foto.ravna.no/500/020201.jpg


LOL, donghu were absorbed by Caocaos army it is from Caocaos belongings we found caucasoid figurine, but I have to find the link again. In fact a lot of warlords could be caucasian and white from chinese records. GOOGLE: CAOCAO FACE

[ButlerKing]

LOL, donghu were absorbed by Caocaos army it is from Caocaos belongings we found caucasoid figurine, but I have to find the link again. In fact a lot of warlords could be caucasian and white from chinese records. GOOGLE: CAOCAO FACE

But nobody ever claimed Cao Cao looked anything like a Caucasoid or even looked like a Donghu despite the fact so many had seen him. Why wouldn't they distinguish the difference? Caucasoid figurines could actually just be Eurasians.

Caucasoids and predominately Caucasoid after the time of Scythians only existed in Central Asia where as every buried skull during the Xiongnu and pre-Xiongnu of Mongolia was half Mongoloid and predominately Mongoloid and after the Xiongnu period it was mostly pure Mongoloid to predominately Mongoloid.

[Hexachordia]

Turks may originated from tocharyans mixing with mongoloids, their language show diverse origins from indo-aryan, persian, altaic, uralic, this is a diverse group of people. The only influence of mongoloid culture among them is the chinese paintings.

[Hexachordia]

But nobody ever claimed Cao Cao looked anything like a Caucasoid or even looked like a Donghu despite the fact so many had seen him. Why wouldn't they distinguish the difference? Caucasoid figurines could actually just be Eurasians.

Caucasoids and predominately Caucasoid after the time of Scythians only existed in Central Asia where as every buried skull during the Xiongnu and pre-Xiongnu of Mongolia was half Mongoloid and predominately Mongoloid and after the Xiongnu period it was mostly pure Mongoloid to predominately Mongoloid.

[zhaoyun]

There is no way that Cao Cao was White or looked European. However, during the Han period, many Central Asian tribes were absorbed into Chinese civilization, some of which had significant Caucasian admixture, so some of the citizens of the Han dynasty might have looked like these people. At that time, there were no clear ethnic or racial categories yet.

[ButlerKing]

Turks may originated from tocharyans mixing with mongoloids, their language show diverse origins from indo-aryan, persian, altaic, uralic, this is a diverse group of people. The only influence of mongoloid culture among them is the chinese paintings.

And Tocharians were already mixed heavily with Mongoloid and mixing with another Mongoloid would of course make them more Mongoloid. This explains why after the uyghur invasion of Tocharia there is contribtution of 32% Mongoloid Y-DNA but mtDNA still the same



Look at the Azeris a mixture of Turks and Iranians, they are the most Mongoloid influence of Middle east/Europe


5 - 29% Mongoloid


http://i49.tinypic.com/4r9s42.png

[Hexachordia]

But nobody ever claimed Cao Cao looked anything like a Caucasoid or even looked like a Donghu despite the fact so many had seen him. Why wouldn't they distinguish the difference? Caucasoid figurines could actually just be Eurasians.

Caucasoids and predominately Caucasoid after the time of Scythians only existed in Central Asia where as every buried skull during the Xiongnu and pre-Xiongnu of Mongolia was half Mongoloid and predominately Mongoloid and after the Xiongnu period it was mostly pure Mongoloid to predominately Mongoloid.


I d agree that xiongnu could be predominantly mongoloid, but donghu people actually never got massacred by xiongnu but mostly absorbed by chinese dynasty and Caocao, they lived under Han dynasty for around 200 years. They were minority by the time a lot of western people had been living in eastern China, like Shandong, since 550BC. Genetics shows 2550 years ago caucasoids were predominant in Shandong province, then the Qi dukedom.

[ButlerKing]

Turks.


Azeris in Azerbaijan have 5 - 21% Mongoloid DNA

Azeris in North Iran have 11 - 29% Mongoloid DNA


Azeris child actress from Iran

http://umuthuzmeleri.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/baran1.jpg

Ganira Pasheya have a very odd look. She is a Member of the National Assembly of Azerbaijan [1][2]
http://en.trend.az/article_photo/2008/06/10/Ganira%20Pashayeva100806-1-big.jpg

Azeris commander
http://en.trend.az/article_photo/2008/06/10/Ramil%20Usubov110306-5-big.jpg

Some Azeri pretty girl.
http://www.loveme.com/images/p68517-1.jpg

Azeri children
http://i49.tinypic.com/30j65w6.jpg

[Hexachordia]

There is no way that Cao Cao was White or looked European. However, during the Han period, many Central Asian tribes were absorbed into Chinese civilization, some of which had significant Caucasian admixture, so some of the citizens of the Han dynasty might have looked like these people. At that time, there were no clear ethnic or racial categories yet.

The trick here is ancient chinese did not racially distinguish people only the one who accept or reject the mainstream education. The ones who reject is called as Hu, means foreign. All non mainstream educated people were called as hu, a near counterpart to greek "barbarian" but with a bit more goodwillness, less prejudice.

[ButlerKing]

I d agree that xiongnu could be predominantly mongoloid, but donghu people actually never got massacred by xiongnu but mostly absorbed by chinese dynasty and Caocao, they lived under Han dynasty for around 200 years. They were minority by the time a lot of western people had been living in eastern China, like Shandong, since 550BC. Genetics shows 2550 years ago caucasoids were predominant in Shandong province, then the Qi dukedom.


I read that study in 2000, it was proven wrong in a newer study


" The reanalysis of two previously published ancient mtDNA population data sets from Linzi (same province) then indicates that the ancient populations had features in common with the modern populations from south China rather than any specific affinity to the European mtDNA pool. "


Reconstructing the evolutionary history of China: a caveat ...
europepmc.org/abstract/med/12598688‎
by YG Yao - ‎2003 - ‎Cited by 78 - ‎Related articles

[Hexachordia]

I read that study from 2000, it was proven wrong by a newer study

" The reanalysis of two previously published ancient mtDNA population data sets from Linzi (same province) then indicates that the ancient populations had features in common with the modern populations from south China rather than any specific affinity to the European mtDNA pool."


Reconstructing the evolutionary history of China: a caveat ...
europepmc.org/abstract/med/12598688‎
by YG Yao - ‎2003 -

The revision still confirm the existence of non-mongoloid DNA, just reject the term --european. Todays Shandong people has the most western admixture in China.
Also the revision was done by all chinese team, the original study was done by chinese-japanese team. You know it was a political gesture.

[Longbowman]

Well genetic proves otherwise.

Most Mongolians are actually from the East they have all but 7% Caucasian ancestry on average but if it's from the west than 17% on average

http://i57.tinypic.com/30u8tn6.png


Where as Turkey have 0% to 17.8% even red hair seems more rare.

http://i59.tinypic.com/30dfkzk.jpg

7% works too, though. You said 19% earlier, that's why I used it.

If 7% of their genes are westerns, we can assume at least 7% of 7/2 or 0.25% of Mongolians will have light hair.

[ButlerKing]

The trick here is ancient chinese did not racially distinguish people only the one who accept or reject the mainstream education. The ones who reject is called as Hu, means foreign. All non mainstream educated people were called as hu, a near counterpart to greek "barbarian" but with a bit more goodwillness, less prejudice.


Shangdong western eurasian admixture is 0% if it was really there it would show up.

That don't make sense. During the Wu Hu invasion it was by 5 tribes, the most dinstict was Jie were as the others


If they didn't reject than why was it that only the Jie tribe was exterminated out of all the other Wu Hu tribes? because historic record the Jie couldn't bend in with the East Asian population that is 200,000 of them were massacred. They would too easy to spot out where as the Xianbei and Xiongnu even though had small caucasian admixture the vast majority cannot be distinguished.

[ButlerKing]

7% works too, though. You said 19% earlier, that's why I used it.

If 7% of their genes are westerns, we can assume at least 7% of 7/2 or 0.25% of Mongolians will have light hair.


7% is too weak. Even Finns are more mixed than that.


I think every province have different set of average DNA.


Mongoloid DNA in the Turkish province of Aydin is one of the highest as it reaches 18.5% Mongoloid nearly 2/3 of the Aydin Turks are over 10% Mongoloid.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rcdkNaYFICM/Tz1p4IcLlZI/AAAAAAAAEhs/En5H2fWIh68/s1600/ADMIXTURE+Turkish_Aydin_Ho_3.png

[Longbowman]

7% is too weak. Even Finns are more mixed than that.


I think every province have different set of average DNA.


Mongoloid DNA in the Turkish province of Aydin is one of the highest as it reaches 18.5% Mongoloid

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rcdkNaYFICM/Tz1p4IcLlZI/AAAAAAAAEhs/En5H2fWIh68/s1600/ADMIXTURE+Turkish_Aydin_Ho_3.png

There's no such thing as 'too weak.' The genes exist, so they will be represented. That's the explanation. Very simple.

[ButlerKing]

The revision still confirm the existence of non-mongoloid DNA, just reject the term --european. Todays Shandong people has the most western admixture in China.
Also the revision was done by all chinese team, the original study was done by chinese-japanese team. You know it was a political gesture.

Autosomal DNA of Shandong shows 0% West Eurasian admixture. There is more west Eurasian admixture in Qinghai and Guangzhou but not Shangdong which is 0%

[Hexachordia]

That don't make sense. During the Wu Hu invasion it was by 5 tribes, the most dinstict was Jie were as the others


If they didn't reject than why was it that only the Jie tribe was exterminated out of all the other Wu Hu tribes? because historic record the Jie couldn't bend in with the East Asian population that is 200,000 of them were massacred. They would too easy to spot out where as the Xianbei and Xiongnu even though had small caucasian admixture the vast majority cannot be distinguished.

Jie massacred all the males and enslaved females, they killed so much their economy even was stopped by the lack of working peasants, so they were massacred. Also xianbei massacred the massacrers of the Jie people, and xianbei were a part of donghu people too, the caucasian people, Jie was just a small branch of xianbei people.

[Hexachordia]

Autosomal DNA of Shandong shows 0% West Eurasian admixture. There is more west Eurasian admixture in Qinghai and Guangzhou but not Shangdong which is 0%

By genetic distance, shandong people is the most westward.

[ButlerKing]

Jie massacred all the males and enslaved females, they killed so much their economy even was stopped by the lack of working peasants, so they were massacred. Also xianbei massacred the massacrers of the Jie people, and xianbei were a part of donghu people too, the caucasian people, Jie was just a small branch of xianbei people.

Very funny why would Xianbei people call them barbarians.

.. When Shi Min, an adopted son of Shi Le, killed about 200,000 Jiehu nomads


Ancient Chinese texts record that General Ran Min ordered the extermination of the Wu Hu, especially the Jie people, during the Wei–Jie war in the fourth century AD. People with racial characteristics such as high-bridged noses and bushy beards were killed; in total, 200,000 were reportedly massacred.[37]


XIANBEI WERE DIFFERENT RACE

Chinese historical texts unequivocally state that the Xianbei were descendants of the Donghu. They were a northern or northeastern Asian Mongoloid population according to modern Chinese and Russian anthropologists.[3]

[ButlerKing]

By genetic distance, shandong people is the most westward.

Only the muslim migrant Hui Chinese of Shangdong have it but not the local Chinese.

A Chinese from Guangzhou and Qinghai have west 1.5% west Eurasian admixture but in shangdong is 0%

[Hexachordia]

Very funny why would Xianbei people call them barbarians.

.. When Shi Min, an adopted son of Shi Le, killed about 200,000 Jiehu nomads


Ancient Chinese texts record that General Ran Min ordered the extermination of the Wu Hu, especially the Jie people, during the Wei–Jie war in the fourth century AD. People with racial characteristics such as high-bridged noses and bushy beards were killed; in total, 200,000 were reportedly massacred.[37]


XIANBEI WERE DIFFERENT RACE

Chinese historical texts unequivocally state that the Xianbei were descendants of the Donghu. They were a northern or northeastern Asian Mongoloid population according to modern Chinese and Russian anthropologists.[3]

Xianbei was confused with kitans, because they were later absorbed by the kitans the northern mongoloid tribe. But Xianbei was surely caucasian and white, xianbei even had a nickname called "bailu" the white looters. Xianbei was the most powerful og 5 hu-s, they brought cultural renaissance in Wei dynasty. Shi Min and his followers were exterminated by xianbei, things went around for everybody.

[ButlerKing]

Jie massacred all the males and enslaved females, they killed so much their economy even was stopped by the lack of working peasants, so they were massacred. Also xianbei massacred the massacrers of the Jie people, and xianbei were a part of donghu people too, the caucasian people, Jie was just a small branch of xianbei people.



But the strange is even the Xianbei ancestry of Sui dynasty and Tang dynasty claimed the Donghu look different to them. Although yes the founder of Sui and Tang had paternal Han Chinese ancestry they are mostly Xianbei

Here is emperor Taizong. A painting portraying Tang Taizong by painter Yan Liben (c. 600 – 673).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Tang_Emperor_Taizong.jpg

[Hexachordia]

Only the muslim migrant Hui Chinese of Shangdong have it but not the local Chinese.

A Chinese from Guangzhou and Qinghai have west 1.5% west Eurasian admixture but in shangdong is 0%

You are blind to the facts.

[ButlerKing]

Xianbei was confused with kitans, because they were later absorbed by the kitans the northern mongoloid tribe. But Xianbei was surely caucasian and white, xianbei even had a nickname called "bailu" the white looters. Xianbei was the most powerful og 5 hu-s, they brought cultural renaissance in Wei dynasty. Shi Min and his followers were exterminated by xianbei, things went around for everybody.

If they came from Mongolia or South Siberia than none of them was white. Because after the Xiongnu period all the Mongolia Skulls were either Mongoloid or mostly Mongoloid even in South Siberia was 50% to 100% Mongoloid.

Only if they came from Central Asia than I believe they were white and Caucasian (or at least mostly) because Turkic-Mongol didn't displace the Iranic people that time. Turks were also just a minority in Central Asia.

[Hexachordia]

But the strange is even the Xianbei ancestry of Sui dynasty and Tang dynasty claimed the Donghu look different to them. Although yes the founder of Sui and Tang had paternal Han Chinese ancestry they are mostly Xianbei

Here is emperor Taizong. A painting portraying Tang Taizong by painter Yan Liben (c. 600 – 673).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Tang_Emperor_Taizong.jpg

Tang could have a lot of caucasian nobles, true, it is said that before the mongols, Shandong looked just like Tagikstan and Xinjiang, also a poet Libai could have mixture too. He was said to be from western China, his name: Li(chinese surname) Bai(white), he was described as tall like 1,83cm. Not likely a pure mongoloid.

[ButlerKing]

Tang could have a lot of caucasian nobles, true, it is said that before the mongols, Shandong looked just like Tagikstan and Xinjiang, also a poet Libai could have mixture too. He was said to be from western China, his name: Li(chinese surname) Bai(white), he was described as tall like 1,83cm. Not likely a pure mongoloid.


Tang couldn't have had caucasian nobles because if they did why would they describe themselves racially different to Donghu people ( Caucasian or part Caucasian ).? They wouldn't need to highlight the difference and Chinese even talked about caucasian barbarian in central Asia in front of Tang nobles. The only they recorded Caucasian are the ones they mentioned as having Sogdian ancestry

Also when the Japanese shown the Tang emperors Ainu they were surprised by their appearance but they never said anything about Japanese.

Also why would Tang Xianbei and Chinese describe themselves being different to Persians, Arabs, Iranians?


As for Shangdong they have 0% West Eurasian admixture

[Hexachordia]

Mongols destroyed the cultural connection between han chinese and other ethnics, we never merged into one nation. Also main chinese civilization was not just rich also metropolitan, multicultural. Full of splendour.

[Hexachordia]

Tang couldn't have had caucasian nobles because if they did why would they describe themselves racially different to Donghu people ( Caucasian or part Caucasian ).? They wouldn't need to highlight the difference and Chinese even talked about caucasian barbarian in central Asia in front of Tang nobles. The only they recorded Caucasian are the ones they mentioned as having Sogdian ancestry

Also when the Japanese shown the Tang emperors Ainu they were surprised by their appearance but they never said anything about Japanese.


Also why would Tang Xianbei and Chinese describe themselves being different to Persians, Arabs, Iranians?

Emperor could be mongoloids, donghu by the time of SuiTang was already non0pexistent, it is like jordanes calling Attila at his imagination, he never quote Priskos, non of Priskos sruviving texts tell of such thing,

[ButlerKing]

Tang could have a lot of caucasian nobles, true, it is said that before the mongols, Shandong looked just like Tagikstan and Xinjiang, also a poet Libai could have mixture too. He was said to be from western China, his name: Li(chinese surname) Bai(white), he was described as tall like 1,83cm. Not likely a pure mongoloid.


What does height have to to do with race? 1/10 of Koreans 6ft tall but the average is 5ft 8 but still that means millions are over 6ft tall. I don't see anything special about height, even the southeast Asians who are considered the shortest have at least 1 million out of 20 million that are 6ft tall. If they were the same they would have described them as looking the same as Caucasian or Donghu.



BESIDES I DON'T THINK NONE OF THESE INVADERS WERE EVER PURE CAUCASIAN OR PURE ASIAN.
Even the Bulgar invaders of Europe mixed race


Anthropology of the Bulgars
http://www.iriston.com/nogbon/print.php?newsid=368
http://aquilaaquilonis.livejournal.com/86049.html


Russian translation to English

"It is interesting that male Bulgars were somewhat more Mongoloid than female Bulgars although not significantly different, it is still closer to the brachicranial Caucasoid"

" The population has abandoned medieval cemetery Small Minaret, was mixed in anthropological terms. Along with representatives brachicranial Caucasoid type are representatives of the Mongoloid race. Women's series is not significantly different from men, but, in our view, it is more Caucasoid than men. Apparently, carriers Mongoloid elements was a male part of the population who came to this territory as conquerors. (P. 93)

[Hexachordia]

Tang couldn't have had caucasian nobles because if they did why would they describe themselves racially different to Donghu people ( Caucasian or part Caucasian ).? They wouldn't need to highlight the difference and Chinese even talked about caucasian barbarian in central Asia in front of Tang nobles. The only they recorded Caucasian are the ones they mentioned as having Sogdian ancestry

Also when the Japanese shown the Tang emperors Ainu they were surprised by their appearance but they never said anything about Japanese.


Also why would Tang Xianbei and Chinese describe themselves being different to Persians, Arabs, Iranians?

Ainus are famous for their SHORTNESS.

[Hexachordia]

What does highness have to to do with race? 1/10 of Koreans 6ft but the average is 5ft 8. I don't see anything special about high, even the southeast Asians who are considered have at least 1 million out of 20 million that are 6ft tall. If they were different they would have described them as looking the same as Caucasian or Donghu.



BESIDES I DON'T THINK NONE OF THESE INVADERS WERE EVER PURE CAUCASIAN OR PURE ASIAN.
Even the Bulgar invaders of Europe mixed race


Anthropology of the Bulgars
http://www.iriston.com/nogbon/print.php?newsid=368
http://aquilaaquilonis.livejournal.com/86049.html


Russian translation to English

"It is interesting that male Bulgars were somewhat more Mongoloid than female Bulgars although not significantly different, it is still closer to the brachicranial Caucasoid"

" The population has abandoned medieval cemetery Small Minaret, was mixed in anthropological terms. Along with representatives brachicranial Caucasoid type are representatives of the Mongoloid race. Women's series is not significantly different from men, but, in our view, it is more Caucasoid than men. Apparently, carriers Mongoloid elements was a male part of the population who came to this territory as conquerors. (P. 93)

In ancient times, average height of chinese is only 158cm.

[zhaoyun]

Tang could have a lot of caucasian nobles, true, it is said that before the mongols, Shandong looked just like Tagikstan and Xinjiang, also a poet Libai could have mixture too. He was said to be from western China, his name: Li(chinese surname) Bai(white), he was described as tall like 1,83cm. Not likely a pure mongoloid.


I seriously doubt taht people in Shandong were partly Caucasoid at that time. Maybe in the Northwest regions such as Gansu, Shaanxi, Ningxia, etc where many of those people were sinicized Turks, of which Li Bai was one. But people in eastern China are very much Mongoloid, their height has nothing to do with it. I am 1.88 M and I'm full Chinese, many people in Northern China are full blooded and tall. But Li Bai was likely partly Caucasoid, as his family came from Sinicized Turks, the founders of the Tang dynasty were also partly sinicized Turks, that's part of the reason why they were very cosmopolitan.

[ButlerKing]

Emperor could be mongoloids, donghu by the time of SuiTang was already non0pexistent, it is like jordanes calling Attila at his imagination, he never quote Priskos, non of Priskos sruviving texts tell of such thing,

I doubt Donghu was ever Caucasian by the time they invaded China.
They were mostly like Eurasian to pure Mongoloid.


Description sounds extremely Mongoloid and typical in every way. By Jordanes who cited description of Priscus who met Attila

Both was alive in the same era ,same century, same years to meet eachother


" Short of stature, with a broad chest and a large head; his eyes were small, his beard thin and sprinkled with grey; and he had a flat nose and tanned skin, showing evidence of his origin.[3] "

The description suggest a person typical of Asian or Mongoloid features.[2]


http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000_x3.uEM6.s4/fit=1000x750/20090713-Mongolia-0901.jpg
http://media.worldbulletin.net/250x190/2014/01/10/kazakh-altay.jpg

[zhaoyun]

In ancient times, average height of chinese is only 158cm.

Maybe for Southern Chinese. But Northern Chinese were always much taller than the ones from the South because of the different racial origins, many came from Altaic or Tungusid stock and are more similar to Mongols and Koreans than the Southerners. I'm surprised you don't know this as you are supposed to be from China.

[ButlerKing]

In ancient times, average height of chinese is only 158cm.


In ancient times, that was the number for southern China 158cm but today Southern Chinese is 169 cm the height for North China was 166 cm and today is 179cm.

But hey many height from the middle east were recorded as being short and in europe the average height was below 170cm

[Hexachordia]

I seriously doubt taht people in Shandong were partly Caucasoid at that time. Maybe in the Northwest regions such as Gansu, Shaanxi, Ningxia, etc where many of those people were sinicized Turks, of which Li Bai was one. But people in eastern China are very much Mongoloid, their height has nothing to do with it. I am 1.88 M and I'm full Chinese, many people in Northern China are full blooded and tall. But Li Bai was likely partly Caucasoid, as his family came from Sinicized Turks, the founders of the Tang dynasty were also partly sinicized Turks, that's part of the reason why they were very cosmopolitan.


What do we have today. Hormon milk, a lot of sugar. Mongols exterminate northern civilized people, and brought in tons of savages. Beijing even do not have relics earlier than Ming dynasty, all destroyed by the mongols. We do not really have cultural towns just because of mongols.

[zhaoyun]

Sad to say, but Butlerking is actually sounding very accurate on this thread.

[zhaoyun]

What do we have today. Hormon milk, a lot of sugar. Mongols exterminate northern civilized people, and brought in tons of savages. Beijing even do not have relics earlier than Ming dynasty, all destroyed by the mongols. We do not really have cultural towns just because of mongols.

The Mongols did not exterminate the Northern Hans. They killed many due to the invasion, but the population was always huge. Anyways, the Northerners were always somewhat related to the Central Asian peoples by blood. A lot of them look very similar to Mongols. But there was always a big height difference between Northern and Southern Chinese. When I am in Southern China, I feel like I am a different race than most people as I am usually a head taller. But I've been to places in Northern China, where it was even common to see a woman that was as tall as me.

[Hexachordia]

In ancient times, that was the number for southern China 158cm but today Southern Chinese is 169 cm the height for North China was 166 cm and today is 179cm.

But hey many height from the middle east were recorded as being short and in europe the average height was below 170cm

166cm and 183cm are very different.

[ButlerKing]

There was no pure race from these central Asian invaders.
Even the Turkish people and Mongolians have mix blood

The Bulgars that conquered part of Europe were Turkified Iranic but even they had substantial Mongoloid

http://s39.radikal.ru/i085/0904/b0/27ae963ff45a.jpg
http://www.iriston.com/nogbon/pictures/Tabol/jivko_cherep_20.jpg


http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Булгары
Archaeology and paleoanthropology




"It is interesting that male Bulgars were somewhat more Mongoloid than female Bulgars although not significantly different, it is still closer to the brachicranial Caucasoid"

" The population has abandoned medieval cemetery Small Minaret, was mixed in anthropological terms. Along with representatives brachicranial Caucasoid type are representatives of the Mongoloid race. Women's series is not significantly different from men, but, in our view, it is more Caucasoid than men. Apparently, carriers Mongoloid elements was a male part of the population who came to this territory as conquerors. (P. 93)


Materials Zlivkinskogo necropolis (Ukraine) [22] , cemeteries Crimea [23] and mounds in the Volga and Danube Bulgaria [24] show that the Bulgars treated brahiokrannym (round or short head) Europoids [25] . By craniological Zlivkinskogo repository related to Saltovo-Mayaki culture, physical type Bulgarians is set to "brachicranial Caucasoid with weakened Mongoloid features, the average size of face and skull. characteristic of both Asian and for part of the European Sarmatians [28] (excluding the Alans , whose physical type was dolihokrannym Caucasoid [29] ), for rivers Amu Darya and Syr Darya and is expected to homeland Proto-Bulgarians [30] of cemeteries Iranian-speaking peoples, also in modern Pamir peoples [31] . Caucasian origin brahiokranii Proto, binds to the so-called paleo-Euroipeoid groups .

The Pamiri are believe to be descendants of Bulgars but they have 9% to 28% Mongoloid a few even have 40%


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5jExECBr3tI/TIhiRCICuZI/AAAAAAAAAM4/tIuP2NBBwlE/s1600/IMG_3412.JPG
http://villegia-tour.fr/blog/wp-content/gallery/tadjikistan_ichkachim/SDC10629.JPG
http://www.biciklisto.de/Pamir/44_WEB.JPG
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/sambor1965/2009_adv/afghan/sarhad2/P8140884_resize.jpg

I was surprised this guy was Tajik I though he was Kazakh/Kyrgyz

http://www.pamirs.org/images/other_people/images/blue%20eyed%20man%20kone%20kurgon.jpg

[Hexachordia]

The Mongols did not exterminate the Northern Hans. They killed many due to the invasion, but the population was always huge. Anyways, the Northerners were always somewhat related to the Central Asian peoples by blood. A lot of them look very similar to Mongols. But there was always a big height difference between Northern and Southern Chinese. When I am in Southern China, I feel like I am a different race than most people as I am usually a head taller. But I've been to places in Northern China, where it was even common to see a woman that was as tall as me.

Remember Xixia, northern ethnic qiang kingdom, was wipt out, houses burnt, men hunted down, women raped. Mongols also named several surnames to be exterminated along with relatives. In records says
where mongols passed, all left lifeless. I know modern chinese 80% are of manchus breed, inferior and ugly. Manchus also conducted extermination around the major chinese cities, the we lost Ming cultural memory. We ethnic southern chinese rather have more witness to ancient chinese glory, we are better looking, more civilized.

[Hexachordia]

There was no pure race from these central Asian invaders.
Even the Turkish people and Mongolians have mix blood

The Bulgars that conquered part of Europe were Turkified Iranic but even they had substantial Mongoloid

http://s39.radikal.ru/i085/0904/b0/27ae963ff45a.jpg
http://www.iriston.com/nogbon/pictures/Tabol/jivko_cherep_20.jpg


http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Булгары
Archaeology and paleoanthropology




"It is interesting that male Bulgars were somewhat more Mongoloid than female Bulgars although not significantly different, it is still closer to the brachicranial Caucasoid"

" The population has abandoned medieval cemetery Small Minaret, was mixed in anthropological terms. Along with representatives brachicranial Caucasoid type are representatives of the Mongoloid race. Women's series is not significantly different from men, but, in our view, it is more Caucasoid than men. Apparently, carriers Mongoloid elements was a male part of the population who came to this territory as conquerors. (P. 93)


Materials Zlivkinskogo necropolis (Ukraine) [22] , cemeteries Crimea [23] and mounds in the Volga and Danube Bulgaria [24] show that the Bulgars treated brahiokrannym (round or short head) Europoids [25] . By craniological Zlivkinskogo repository related to Saltovo-Mayaki culture, physical type Bulgarians is set to "brachicranial Caucasoid with weakened Mongoloid features, the average size of face and skull. characteristic of both Asian and for part of the European Sarmatians [28] (excluding the Alans , whose physical type was dolihokrannym Caucasoid [29] ), for rivers Amu Darya and Syr Darya and is expected to homeland Proto-Bulgarians [30] of cemeteries Iranian-speaking peoples, also in modern Pamir peoples [31] . Caucasian origin brahiokranii Proto, binds to the so-called paleo-Euroipeoid groups .

The Pamiri are believe to be descendants of Bulgars but they have 9% to 28% Mongoloid a few even have 40%


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5jExECBr3tI/TIhiRCICuZI/AAAAAAAAAM4/tIuP2NBBwlE/s1600/IMG_3412.JPG
http://villegia-tour.fr/blog/wp-content/gallery/tadjikistan_ichkachim/SDC10629.JPG
http://www.biciklisto.de/Pamir/44_WEB.JPG
http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr291/sambor1965/2009_adv/afghan/sarhad2/P8140884_resize.jpg

I was surprised this guy was Tajik I though he was Kazakh/Kyrgyz

http://www.pamirs.org/images/other_people/images/blue%20eyed%20man%20kone%20kurgon.jpg

You are SPIRITCLAYMORE i am sure. haha. Enough.

[ButlerKing]

166cm and 183cm are very different.

Dude you make it sound like as if everyone was only 166 cm. Even Europe from the past were only 170cm on average.

[zhaoyun]

Remember Xixia, northern ethnic qiang kingdom, was wipt out, houses burnt, men hunted down, women raped. Mongols also named several surnames to be exterminated along with relatives. In records says
where mongols passed, all left lifeless. I know modern chinese 80% are of manchus breed, inferior and ugly. Manchus also conducted extermination around the major chinese cities, the we lost Ming cultural memory. We ethnic southern chinese rather have more witness to ancient chinese glory, we are better looking, more civilized.

Cities and towns were raided, but the population was never wiped out. The number of dead could not have surpassed more than 5% of the population. It is just like when the Japanese invaded, they killed 20 million civilians, but it was not more than perhaps 3 or 4% of China's population. China always had a huge population.

But yes, Northern Chinese are related by blood to the Mongols and Manchus, but it is because they are from the same racial stock to begin with, the difference is that they were agricultural people from 8,000 years ago and stopped being nomadic.

[ButlerKing]

So let's just put it like this.

Mongolian empire were created by Mongoloid with Caucasoid admixture.

Ottoman empire were created by Caucasoid with Mongoloid admixture.


It's very easy to understand. All the invaders of Central Asians to Europe and Central Asian to East Asia were all mixed blood. There was never one DNA sample that showed any of them to be pure race

Even the infamous Kypchak were 1/4 to 1/3 Mongoloid


SA Pletnev studied a group of burials of Kipchaks in Volga region and found them to have Caucasoid features with some admixture of Mongoloid traits, with physical characteristics such as flat face and distinctly protruding nose.[4]


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/State_of_Cuman-Kipchak_%2813.%29_en.png

[ButlerKing]

Cities and towns were raided, but the population was never wiped out. The number of dead could not have surpassed more than 5% of the population. It is just like when the Japanese invaded, they killed 20 million civilians, but it was not more than perhaps 3 or 4% of China's population. China always had a huge population.

But yes, Northern Chinese are related by blood to the Mongols and Manchus, but it is because they are from the same racial stock to begin with, the difference is that they were agricultural people from 8,000 years ago and stopped being nomadic.


No that is completely wrong. North Chinese, Tibetan, Bhutanese are from the same North Mongoloid stock but their different from the Siberian North Mongoloid that Koreans, Mongolians, Japanese, Manchurian. North Chinese lack Siberian DNA.


South Chinese are North Chinese mixed with Southern ethnic minority. South Chinese DNA are Southeast Asians with 25 - 55% East Asian blood so their a mixture of East Asian and Southeast Asian

[Hexachordia]

Cities and towns were raided, but the population was never wiped out. The number of dead could not have surpassed more than 5% of the population. It is just like when the Japanese invaded, they killed 20 million civilians, but it was not more than perhaps 3 or 4% of China's population. China always had a huge population.

But yes, Northern Chinese are related by blood to the Mongols and Manchus, but it is because they are from the same racial stock to begin with, the difference is that they were agricultural people from 8,000 years ago and stopped being nomadic.


China never had a huge population untill Manchus, mongols did eradicate 60-70% chinese population including ethnic people. Before the mongols, Gansu was still a land of Buddhism, after mongols muslim occupied the former Western xia, but no relocation why? Buddhist People vanished. Not just chinese people, mongols also stormed several central asian cities like Samarkan and wipt out the original population, mongols also invented catapulting disease infested bodies into cities, they were very versed in massacre and wiping out population.

[ButlerKing]

China never had a huge population untill Manchus, mongols did eradicate 60-70% chinese population including ethnic people. Before the mongols, Gansu was still a land of Buddhism, after mongols muslim occupied the former Western xia, but no relocation why? Buddhist People vanished. Not just chinese people, mongols also stormed several central asian cities like Samarkan and wipt out the original population, mongols also invented catapulting disease infested bodies into cities, they were very versed in massacre and wiping out population.


Mongolian disease killed 1/2 of China and 1/3 of Europe and 80% of Central Asians. In Middle east they also massacred countless million.

Their descendants the Hazara still live in middle east, afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan. They have mostly Mongoloid male DNA but Persian/Tajik/Afghan maternal DNA

[ButlerKing]

Even the Avars who spoke Turkic, 1/3 of the people are Mongoloid and Euro-Mongoloid types. Europe was less advance because of the invasions of these barbarians.


They conquered central europe

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Historical_map_of_the_Balkans_around_582-612_AD.jpg



Anthropological evidence

Anthropological research has revealed few skeletons with Mongoloid-type features, although there was continuing cultural influence from the Eurasian nomadic steppe. The late Avar period shows more hybridization, resulting in higher frequencies of Euro-Mongoloids.[14] Mongoloid and Euro-Mongoloid types compose about one-third of the total population of the Avar graves of the eighth century.[15]


According to Pál Lipták the early Avar anthropological material was almost exclusively Europoid in the 7th century, while grave-goods indicated Middle and Central Asian parallels.[16] On the other hand, cemeteries dated for the 8th century contained Mongoloid elements among others. He analysed population of the Danube-Tisza midland region in the Avar period and found that 80% of them showed Europoid characteristics.[16]


INTERMARRIAGE BETWEEN AVARS MEN AND SLAVIC / GERMANIC WOMEN

Initially, the Avars and their subjects lived separately, except for Slavic and Germanic women who married Avar men. Eventually, the Germanic and Slavic peoples were included in the Avaric social order and culture, itself Persian-Byzantine in fashion.[17] Scholars have identified a fused, Avar-Slavic culture, characterized by ornaments such as half-moon-shaped earrings, Byzantine-styled buckles, beads, and bracelets with horn-shaped ends.[17] Paul Fouracre notes, "[T]here appears in the seventh century a mixed Slavic-Avar material culture, interpreted as peaceful and harmonious relationships between Avar warriors and Slavic peasants. It is thought possible that at least some of the leaders of the Slavic tribes could have become part of the Avar aristocracy".[18] Apart from the assimilated Gepids, a few graves of west Germanic (Carolingian) peoples have been found in the Avar lands. They perhaps served as mercenaries.[17]




Avar chief :- B Papkert Cemetery
(Rippl-Ronai Museum, Kaposvar)

http://www.nhmus.hu/~kustar/kepek/kuag-keszrek-11.jpg

Believed to be Avar leader:
special burial with golden tin
http://s49.radikal.ru/i125/0908/4a/d63328815aad.jpg

Avar Man: Csepel
(MTM, Budapest)

http://www.nhmus.hu/~kustar/kepek/kuag-keszrek-12.jpg

Ancient Avars were a militarized Turkic[2][3] equestrian group which established an empire spanning considerable areas of Central and Eastern Europe from the late 6th to the early 9th century.

[ButlerKing]

The more common mongoloid y-dna among western eurasia are N, Q, but most people like to denote them as being caucasoid in origin. Distribution of N, Q has not connection to mongol history, no contemprary records clear describ mongols as mongoloid, even mongols were partly mongoloid, I am sure they were multiracial like gypsies.

Well haplogroup Q and N are found in 100% in Mongoloid populations were caucasian admixture reaches 0%. Where as every Caucasian tribe that have more than 10% Q or N always have Mongoloid admixture shows in the autosomal DNA.


I believe the Mongols were 90% Mongoloid with only 10% Caucasian blood in the past. As for Turkish I believe the Ottomans were 75% Caucasian with 25% Mongoloid blood by the time in 16th century. There was no record of other ethnicities assimilated with Mongolian in Mongolia but there is tons of record of Turkish assimilating every ethnicity they conquered in what is today modern Turkey. The greeks of instanbul and western Turkey, the Armenia of northeast Turkey, Kurds of Southeast Turkey.

Turks only conquered only these area during the Ottoman. It wasn't until the Ottomans that they that all these are became part of Turkey.

* During the Ottoman millions of migrants, female slaves, jannisaries all combined were brought to Turkey

* In 1923 ( almost 100 years ago ) there was a force assimilation of all ethnic groups with intermarriage and Turkish nationalism

I mean there are so many ethnic groups in Turkey even today

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Seljuk_Sultanate_of_Rum_1190_Locator_Map.svg/1440px-Seljuk_Sultanate_of_Rum_1190_Locator_Map.svg.png

[ButlerKing]

China never had a huge population untill Manchus, mongols did eradicate 60-70% chinese population including ethnic people. Before the mongols, Gansu was still a land of Buddhism, after mongols muslim occupied the former Western xia, but no relocation why? Buddhist People vanished. Not just chinese people, mongols also stormed several central asian cities like Samarkan and wipt out the original population, mongols also invented catapulting disease infested bodies into cities, they were very versed in massacre and wiping out population.


Manchus also killed like 30 million Han Chinese, 10 million ethnic minorities ( Hui, muslims), even nearly exterminated the Oirat tribes of Mongol. Invaded Nepal, Korea and Southeast Asia militarily and threatened them

Mongolian and Manchus are related. Their languages although is separated by Mongolic and Tungustic they still speak a closely related language and they both had great military expansion.

Manchus are like a mixture of Koreans, Tungustic, Chinese.

Manchus are like 2nd Mongol empire of Asia.


Areas ruled Manchuria (Northeast China), Inner Mongolia, Outer Mongolia, Taiwan , China, Tibet, East Turkistan approximately 13 million km2 in size


Tribute to the Qing dynasty of China controlled by Qing partially. Central Asia, Southeast Asia, Nepal, Northern Afghanistan.


until the mid-19th century.[51] During the Qing dynasty the Chinese claimed suzerainty over the Taghdumbash Pamir in the south west of Tashkurgan Tajik Autonomous County but permitted the Mir of Hunza to administer the region in return for a tribute. Until 1937 the inhabitants paid tribute to the Mir of Hunza, who exercised control over the pastures.[52] Khanate of Kokand were forced to submit as protectorate and pay tribute to the Qing dynasty in China between 1774 and 1798.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Qing_Dynasty_1820.png


Mao Zedong killed 40-79 million Chinese including million of ethnic minorities.

[LucvHvce]

Red is made by a certain type of melanin that can also look black in it's darkest form. This is why some black or dark brown hair pulls red when bleached when others pull brown or blonde.

[1stLightHorse]

Here's the intermediary between Mongoloid and Caucasoid also with red hair:

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/James-Yeager.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Here's the intermediary between Mongoloid and Caucasoid also with red hair:

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/James-Yeager.jpg

how is that red ?

[1stLightHorse]

how is that red ?

It's ginger. They're the same.

[Hexachordia]

Manchus also killed like 30 million Han Chinese, 10 million ethnic minorities ( Hui, muslims), even nearly exterminated the Oirat tribes of Mongol. Invaded Nepal, Korea and Southeast Asia militarily and threatened them

Mongolian and Manchus are related. Their languages although is separated by Mongolic and Tungustic they still speak a closely related language and they both had great military expansion.

Manchus are like a mixture of Koreans, Tungustic, Chinese.

Manchus are like 2nd Mongol empire of Asia.


Areas ruled Manchuria (Northeast China), Inner Mongolia, Outer Mongolia, Taiwan , China, Tibet, East Turkistan approximately 13 million km2 in size


Tribute to the Qing dynasty of China controlled by Qing partially. Central Asia, Southeast Asia, Nepal, Northern Afghanistan.


until the mid-19th century.[51] During the Qing dynasty the Chinese claimed suzerainty over the Taghdumbash Pamir in the south west of Tashkurgan Tajik Autonomous County but permitted the Mir of Hunza to administer the region in return for a tribute. Until 1937 the inhabitants paid tribute to the Mir of Hunza, who exercised control over the pastures.[52] Khanate of Kokand were forced to submit as protectorate and pay tribute to the Qing dynasty in China between 1774 and 1798.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Qing_Dynasty_1820.png


Mao Zedong killed 40-79 million Chinese including million of ethnic minorities.

Manchus were allied with remnant mongols during the early Ming dynasty, they inherited the mongol hairstyle, female ancestry(dais to marry their princesses), tribal culture etc.

[ButlerKing]

Manchus were allied with remnant mongols during the early Ming dynasty, they inherited the mongol hairstyle, female ancestry(dais to marry their princesses), tribal culture etc.

Manchus at first wanted Mongols to kill eachother. They were descendants of Jin dynasty Jurchens that conquered Northern China and wanted to conquer the south and expand west but they couldn't do it because they were worried of Mongols tribes north to them but in the end they lost to the Mongol invasion of North China. But than came the Qing and the Mongols had submitted to Manchu rule after having defeated the Oirat Mongol the Khalka Mongol submitted to Manchu. They than cruelly invaded Korea and North China with many destructions, destroying everything in it's path. They married Mongol princess aswell.

Manchus in my opinion were crueler than even the Mongols.


1st class was Manchus
2nd class was Koreans and Mongols
3rd class was North Chinese
4th class was South Chinese
5th class was ethnic minority


The reason Mongol hated Chinese so much

The Jin dynasty used money to encouraged tribal wars and disunity between Mongols tribes which led to many countless wars between them. This is why the Mongols hated the Chinese but they didn't know they were foreign invaders themselves because just before the time of Genghis Khan they became sinicized and assimilated with the Han even adopting Chinese dresses and names, languages. But they treated Han Chinese cruelty aswell from what I read. Now today both of them were under Chinese rule in the last hundred years.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Sung_Dynasty_1141.png

[Hexachordia]

Manchus at first wanted Mongols to kill eachother. They were descendants of Jin dynasty Jurchens that conquered Northern China and wanted to conquer the south and expand west but they couldn't do it because they were worried of Mongols tribes north to them but in the end they lost to the Mongol invasion of North China. But than came the Qing and the Mongols had submitted to Manchu rule after having defeated the Oirat Mongol the Khalka Mongol submitted to Manchu. They than cruelly invaded Korea and North China with many destructions, destroying everything in it's path. They married Mongol princess aswell.

Manchus in my opinion were crueler than even the Mongols.


1st class was Manchus
2nd class was Koreans and Mongols
3rd class was North Chinese
4th class was South Chinese
5th class was ethnic minority


The reason Mongol hated Chinese so much

The Jin dynasty used money to encouraged tribal wars and disunity between Mongols tribes which led to many countless wars between them. This is why the Mongols hated the Chinese but they didn't know they were foreign invaders themselves because just before the time of Genghis Khan they became sinicized and assimilated with the Han even adopting Chinese dresses and names, languages. But they treated Han Chinese cruelty aswell from what I read now today both of them were under Chinese rule in the last hundred years.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Sung_Dynasty_1141.png

Mongol started with the leadership of Temujin clan, which had but a mythical origin. Temujin clan unified mongol tribes in Mongolia, which were defeated by Jin dynasty. Jin kingdom was the first to be conquered by Ghengis Khan. I d say mongols were never subjected to sinicization, they were challenged by jin people.

[Hexachordia]

Id admit that Southern Song was a huge scumbag, they allied with the mongols to defeat the Jin kingdom, by doing so Southern Song let the mongols gained control of northeast China and finally grow into a superpower. Southern Song deserved what they got from the mongols.

[ButlerKing]

Mongol started with the leadership of Temujin clan, which had but a mythical origin. Temujin clan unified mongol tribes in Mongolia, which were defeated by Jin dynasty. Jin kingdom was the first to be conquered by Ghengis Khan. I d say mongols were never subjected to sinicization, they were challenged by jin people.

Before the creation of Mongol empire, Mongolia were a land of nomadic chaos, disunity and total unrest. Mongol tribes engaged in many wars and kidnapping, enslaving each-other. Even Genghis Khan was a slave himself.

The Mongols are made up of many united Mongol tribes at first such as the Khamag, Khereid, Mergid, Khori, Naiman, Tumed, Oirat, Buriyat, Uriankhai. All of them engaged in wars with eachother but were united by Genghis Khan in the end. Later he also united the Turkic tribes under his rule.

[ButlerKing]

Id admit that Southern Song was a huge scumbag, they allied with the mongols to defeat the Jin kingdom, by doing so Southern Song let the mongols gained control of northeast China and finally grow into a superpower. Southern Song deserved what they got from the mongols.

That's because Southern Song didn't know Mongols that well. After the destruction of Jin dynasty many of the Yuan dynasty soldiers were Jin ( Jurchen/ Manchus) who invaded the Southern Song dynasty.

Anyway this proves Mongoloid of Altaic origin were deadly warriors and conquerers.

[Hexachordia]

Before the creation of Mongol empire, Mongolia were a land of nomadic chaos, disunity and total unrest. Mongol tribes engaged in many wars and kidnapping, enslaving each-other. Even Genghis Khan was a slave himself.

The Mongols are made up of many united Mongol tribes at first such as the Khamag, Khereid, Mergid, Khori, Naiman, Tumed, Oirat, Buriyat, Uriankhai. All of them engaged in wars with eachother but were united by Genghis Khan in the end. Later he also united the Turkic tribes under his rule.

By the time buryat people did not exist as an ethnic, it is an ethnic we call today. They did not form any remarkable clans. The historical description of Ghengis Khan as a slave is still controversial. This is just another legend of Ghengis Khan even without any other corroboration from any other records. I highly doubt the credibility of this version.

[Hadouken]

[B][SIZE=3]
http://i60.tinypic.com/27wxbwk.jpg

Half Asian
http://static-p2.photoxpress.com/jpg/00/00/66/21/400_F_662107_o6dvE1gzm5kYznaOCdREB7m5EBTvi1_PXP.jp g

Half Asian

http://www.candicewongphotography.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/candice_wong_photography_-0077eEPFCF-980wm.jpg
Half Asian

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1TSGPro2UM0/UYVAvl7qiCI/AAAAAAAAT-M/5B8gIYUCFyI/s1600/_DSC0380.jpg


aaaaawwwwwwwww :Hug00001::Hug00001::Hug00001::Hug00001::Hug00001:

[ButlerKing]

By the time buryat people did not exist as an ethnic, it is an ethnic we call today. They did not form any remarkable clans. The historical description of Ghengis Khan as a slave is still controversial. This is just another legend of Ghengis Khan even without any other corroboration from any other records. I highly doubt the credibility of this version.

The Buryats ancestors were Buriyad ( their tribes were Bulgachin, Heremchin, including Bulagad, Khori, Ekhired, Khongoodor) they were subjected Mongols under Genghis Khan. They joined the Oirats and Joined the Mongol army.

Genghis Khan was a slave, that is not controversial, that is a general fact. Also I've talked with some Mongols before, they really hate the Chinese but they also hate Manchus a lot. They said that if weren't Manchus than Mongolians wouldn't have been so weak and behind today, claiming they would have catch up with the rest of the country.

[Hexachordia]

The Buryats ancestors were Buriyad ( their tribes were Bulgachin, Heremchin, including Bulagad, Khori, Ekhired, Khongoodor) they were subjected Mongols under Genghis Khan. They joined the Oirats and Joined the Mongol army.

Genghis Khan was a slave, that is not controversial, that is a general fact. Also I've talked with some Mongols before, they really hate the Chinese but they also hate Manchus a lot. They said that if weren't Manchus than Mongolians wouldn't have been so weak and behind today, claiming they would have catch up with the rest of the country.

As to the legend, I canot find any historical records or sources in Chinese, all just from internet public chinese wiki anyone can edit. I need the name of historical records or sources please!

Maybe you can call Zhaoyun for help.

[ButlerKing]

By the time buryat people did not exist as an ethnic, it is an ethnic we call today. They did not form any remarkable clans. The historical description of Ghengis Khan as a slave is still controversial. This is just another legend of Ghengis Khan even without any other corroboration from any other records. I highly doubt the credibility of this version.

Oh and one more thing. Buryats are closest cousins of Mongols, racially their both the same. Buryats are slightly purer than modern Mongolians. This proves original Mongols were Mongoloid

A few of them also have reddish hair, blue eyes, blonde hair, brown hair, green eyes.


http://transformsiberia.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/dsc_0032.jpg
http://www.bimi.org/newsletterEU/eu209G16.jpg
http://d3mlntcv38ck9k.cloudfront.net/content/konspekt_image/6055/99feb4ddf5dff269248d119306f11846.jpg
http://www.russia-emb.jp/english/embassy/gallery/assets_c/2013/10/RIAN_00934549-thumb-462xauto-637.jpg

[Hexachordia]

Oh and one more thing. Buryats are closest cousins of Mongols, racially their both the same. Buryats are slightly purer than modern Mongolians. This proves original Mongols were Mongoloid

A few of them also have reddish hair, blue eyes, blonde hair, brown hair, green eyes.


http://transformsiberia.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/dsc_0032.jpg
http://www.bimi.org/newsletterEU/eu209G16.jpg
http://d3mlntcv38ck9k.cloudfront.net/content/konspekt_image/6055/99feb4ddf5dff269248d119306f11846.jpg
http://www.russia-emb.jp/english/embassy/gallery/assets_c/2013/10/RIAN_00934549-thumb-462xauto-637.jpg


Stop this, manchus had the same dress with them but they were not mongols before they married mongol women. The chinese source claiming buryat as a mongol tirbe is also baseless, sourceless, only an internet public edit lengend.

[ButlerKing]

As to the legend, I canot find any historical records or sources in Chinese, all just from internet public chinese wiki anyone can edit. I need the name of historical records or sources please!

Maybe you can call Zhaoyun for help.


Just like the part about Genghis Khan had red hair/blue eyes. There was never any record about Genghis Khan being shocked about Kublai Khan not inherted red hair in Mongolian or Chinese recorded history. All this comes from a random persian historian who was born several decades after Genghis Khan died.

Did Chinese ever claimed Genghis Khan had blue eyes? No. Did Chinese claimed he ever had red hair? No. Anyone else claimed he was red hair? No.

[Hexachordia]

The Buryats ancestors were Buriyad ( their tribes were Bulgachin, Heremchin, including Bulagad, Khori, Ekhired, Khongoodor) they were subjected Mongols under Genghis Khan. They joined the Oirats and Joined the Mongol army.

Genghis Khan was a slave, that is not controversial, that is a general fact. Also I've talked with some Mongols before, they really hate the Chinese but they also hate Manchus a lot. They said that if weren't Manchus than Mongolians wouldn't have been so weak and behind today, claiming they would have catch up with the rest of the country.

As to my knowledge, no chinese historical evern mentioned a thing called Mongol Tribe.

[ButlerKing]

Stop this, manchus had the same dress with them but they were not mongols before they married mongol women. The chinese source claiming buryat as a mongol tirbe is also baseless, sourceless, only an internet public edit lengend.

They are absolutely the same racially as Mongol. The only difference is Mongols have slightly higher Caucasian DNA otherwise there is no difference between the two.

[Hexachordia]

Just like the part about Genghis Khan had red hair/blue eyes. There was never any record about Genghis Khan being shocked about Kublai Khan not inherted red hair in Mongolian or Chinese recorded history. All this comes from a random persian historian who was born several decades after Genghis Khan died.

Did Chinese ever claimed Genghis Khan had blue eyes? No. Did Chinese claimed he ever had red hair? No. Anyone else claimed he was red hair? No.

There is record of such, Secret History Of Mongol told of a mythical figure from no-where, glittering. But chinese records never deal with the origin of the mongols or Ghengis Khan. There is surviving record telling Kublai Khan was red haired. I may concede that Ghengis Khans racial identity is not determinable from historical given details.

[ButlerKing]

There is record of such, Secret History Of Mongol told of a mythical figure from no-where, glittering. But chinese records never deal with the origin of the mongols or Ghengis Khan. There is surviving record telling Kublai Khan was red haired. I may concede that Ghengis Khans racial identity is not determinable from historical given details.

No. I asked Mongolians. They say there was never any record in any Mongolian history that mentioned Genghis Khan had red hair / blue eyes. The reason I believe there's a chance is because we have modern Mongolian who look very Mongoloid/Asian but with red hair / blue eyes.

[zhaoyun]

Butlerking's actually a lot more correct on this thread. Im surprised he actually knows what he is talking about.

Hexachordia, I think your expertise lies more with the Southern minority groups of China. You don't seem very familiar with the Northern ethnic groups.

[Hexachordia]

No. I asked Mongolians. They say there was never any record in any Mongolian history that mentioned Genghis Khan had red hair / blue eyes. The reason there's a chance is because we have modern Mongolian who look very Mongoloid/Asian but with red hair / blue eyes.

The Mongol records tell of a man which is glittering, might be a reference to his wealth or rich dress in gold and silver. I never said Ghengis Khan was blue eyed and blond.

[ButlerKing]

The Mongol records tell of a man which is glittering, might be a reference to his wealth or rich dress in gold and silver. I never said Ghengis Khan was blue eyed and blond.

According to wiki it claimed that one of the ancestors could have been related with yenesei Kyrgyz although they are Mongoloid/Caucasoid mix themselves. The skulls of the Yenesei valley even before some han Chinese mixed with Yenesei Kyrgyz were mixed raced, they were described with having red hair and green eyes.

[ButlerKing]

The Mongol records tell of a man which is glittering, might be a reference to his wealth or rich dress in gold and silver. I never said Ghengis Khan was blue eyed and blond.

It could be that Genghis Khan ancestor from the mother side had one male with such characteristic. I mean this existed long before Genghis Khan. That means even if he was descended from him it be many generations.


Imagine this

Kyrgyz 50/50 mixed with another Mongoloid + mixed with another Mongoloid = Mongoloid with 100% east Asian features but lighter hair and eyes

Kyrgyz boy in uzbekistan on right
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3105/4554792723_4ab2f2e2e1.jpg

Kyrgyz man in the left.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Redhead_Kyrgyz.jpg

[Hexachordia]

According to wiki it claimed that one of the ancestors could have been related with yenesei Kyrgyz although they are Mongoloid/Caucasoid mix themselves. The skulls of the Yenesei valley even before some han Chinese mixed with Yenesei Kyrgyz were mixed raced, they were described with having red hair and green eyes.

In records say Tartars were rivals to the Temujin clan(before the formation of Mongol empire), maybe Temujin was not from the local tribes. since Tartars had been in peace with other kingdoms, but Temujin clan made enemy with everyone: Liao Kingdom, tartars, Jin Kingdom, Song Kingdom. They were no welcomed by any of surrounding tribes. Id say there were no kygyz since kyrgyz had long been a turkicized land, it is hard to explain why tartars rivalled with them. If we trust Ghengis Khans name, Borzhigin, he would have grey eyes.

[Hexachordia]

It could be that Genghis Khan ancestor from the mother side had one male with such characteristic. I mean this existed long before Genghis Khan. That means even if he was descended from him it be many generations.


Imagine this

Kyrgyz 50/50 mixed with another Mongoloid + mixed with another Mongoloid = Mongoloid with 100% east Asian features but lighter hair and eyes

Kyrgyz boy in uzbekistan on right
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3105/4554792723_4ab2f2e2e1.jpg

Kyrgyz man in the left.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Redhead_Kyrgyz.jpg

I am rather tended to consider Glittering Golden Man as a symbol of wealth and golden dress, since ancient times blond racial type was not distinguished and exalted in such way.

[ButlerKing]

In records say Tartars were rivals to the Temujin clan(before the formation of Mongol empire), maybe Temujin was not from the local tribes. since Tartars had been in peace with other kingdoms, but Temujin clan made enemy with everyone: Liao Kingdom, tartars, Jin Kingdom, Song Kingdom. They were no welcomed by any of surrounding tribes. Id say there were no kygyz since kyrgyz had long been a turkicized land, it is hard to explain why tartars rivalled with them. If we trust Ghengis Khans name, Borzhigin, he would have grey eyes.

Despite all that nobody had ever mentioned Genghis Khan grey eyes. If he had those traits that it's kind of strange that being a king nobody has mentioned it. Why is it that no Chinese or Mongolian ever mentioned he had those traits. The only explanation is he never had those traits and if he did it was weak.

Could it be he had those traits but most of the time it was too hard to see he had gray eyes?


Like the Mongolian president. I've only come realized he has gray/greenish eyes. I though it was black because of the photos shows his eyes to be dark brown/black sometimes lighter but than I've seen many Asians with light brown eyes due to bright effect from the photo.


His eye color look just like any Mongoloid eye most of the time

http://www.topnews.in/files/Nambariin-Enkhbayar2.jpg
http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20120413/000cf1bdd03f10f1ca8d05.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02298/Enkhbayar_2298122b.jpg
http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01165/Mangolia_1165155f.jpg


Now him with green eye color

http://www.unuudur.com/wp-content/uploads/Enkhbayar-2.jpg
http://www.newtimes.co.rw/news/files/photos/1344025218Presiden.png

[Black Wolf]

The light hair and eye features among Mongols is due to old admixture with Caucasoids.

[ButlerKing]

The light hair and eye features among Mongols is due to old admixture with Caucasoids.


Or old admixture with Mongoloid/Caucasoids people rather than just Caucasoid. It seems ethnicities of Mongoloid/Caucasoids were more common and had mixed with Mongols

[Black Wolf]

Or old admixture with Mongoloid/Caucasoids people rather than just Caucasoid. It seems ethnicities of Mongoloid/Caucasoids were more common and had mixed with Mongols

Sure but the light features originally came from Caucasoids still.

[ButlerKing]

Sure but the light features originally came from Caucasoids still.

In Mongolians case yes. But definately not in the Hmongs case or those black african isolated tribal people.

[Hexachordia]

Have you seen X files, I remember in an epsiode there is a frankenstein doctor with grey eyes, which claim to have regenerate a new arm for his test subject....

[ButlerKing]

Have you seen X files, I remember in an epsiode there is a frankenstein doctor with grey eyes, which claim to have regenerate a new arm for his test subject....

:)

" The dominant type of the Yenesy Kyrgyz" was Mongoloid [18]. In Chinese sources, these Kyrgyz tribes were described as fair- skinned, green-eyed and red-haired people. with a mixture of European and Mongol features[19] "


http://bezformata.ru/content/Images/000/021/934/image21934160.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Tashtyk_culture01.jpg/250px-Tashtyk_culture01.jpg
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6310/32225563.75/0_8efb3_2d071387_orig

[Hexachordia]

:)

" The dominant type of the Yenesy Kyrgyz" was Mongoloid [18]. In Chinese sources, these Kyrgyz tribes were described as fair- skinned, green-eyed and red-haired people. with a mixture of European and Mongol features[19] "


http://bezformata.ru/content/Images/000/021/934/image21934160.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Tashtyk_culture01.jpg/250px-Tashtyk_culture01.jpg
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6310/32225563.75/0_8efb3_2d071387_orig

these are fantastic pieces of art, dont you see that??

[mgl hulan]

i am mongolian and believe in me red hair isnt common here we usually dye our hair lol

[ButlerKing]

i am mongolian and believe in me red hair isnt common here we usually dye our hair lol

You are Mongolian Khalk:) ( I can tell when a hair is natural or not )

" A certain number of Mongols, particularly the Oirat tribe in western Mongolia tend to exhibit lighter features such as fair skin, blue or green eyes, varying shades of brown hair, and sometimes even red or blonde hair.[69]

[ButlerKing]

Mongolian celebrity with red hair are fake including some models. It's so easy..... even a dog can tell.

This is hair dye ( it's so obvious because it looks unnatural )

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/55/493.png



90% of Mongolians have very black hair and black eyes but 10% have such traits. All the Mongolians with red hair I posted are natural.

The singer Uddam have a natural hair.

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/252/74197510.jpg
http://www.rumormillnews.com/pix3/Uddam-400x290.jpg

[ButlerKing]

Mongolian girl with reddish hair

https://fbcdn-photos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1/1124_507137301121_8141_n.jpg

Typical Mongolian man

http://www3.artflakes.com/artwork/products/264422/poster/mongolia036.jpg?1300220930

[ButlerKing]

THIS GUY HAS FAKE HAIR ( Blonde or ginger? )

http://mariuszstankiewicz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/IMG_1776.jpg

[ButlerKing]

It seems brown hair with some red is sometimes confuses for being red hair


True brown hair is like this ( even though is clearly dyed from this chick )

http://styleandbeauty.cult2.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/brown-hair-getty.jpg



Where as red hair can be mistaken as orange, red or brown with mixture of reddish hair.



https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WYw7kIvbO0g/T2X4T2mB4SI/AAAAAAAAARg/Snjj8DQU11w/w800-h800/Mongolian%2Bboy.jpg
http://thesqueakyrobot.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/dsc_0981.jpg

[ButlerKing]

By genetic distance, shandong people is the most westward.


Here is a facial reconstruction of Shangdong people. Their DNA is 0% western Eurasian and modern Shangdong people have 100% Eastern Eurasian DNA but many of their physical features match those of pure Malay Mongoloid of Taiwanese aborigines Austronesians Mongoloid tribes. This explains why they made a mistake. It's similar to the mistake they make about Ainu being Caucasian.


http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz319/freesky_fdu/1012021227181d9415b7cdd649.jpg


A good example is Sun Yat Sen who showed pseudo-caucasian features


http://cnparm.home.texas.net/Nat/China/Sun%20Yat-sen.JPG

[Damião de Góis]

I din't say their common, they just have more light hair/light eyes than Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy (except the North Italy)


You mean Mongolians? That is a good joke...

[Hexachordia]

Here is a facial reconstruction of Shangdong people. Their DNA is 0% western Eurasian and modern Shangdong people have 100% Eastern Eurasian DNA but many of their physical features match those of pure Malay Mongoloid of Taiwanese aborigines Austronesians Mongoloid tribes. This explains why they made a mistake. It's similar to the mistake they make about Ainu being Caucasian.


http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz319/freesky_fdu/1012021227181d9415b7cdd649.jpg


A good example is Sun Yat Sen who showed pseudo-caucasian features


http://cnparm.home.texas.net/Nat/China/Sun%20Yat-sen.JPG

These are genuine southern ethnic looks, I have shown you the pictures of taiwan aborigines and southern ethnic pictures 2 years ago in anthroscape, dont you remember?

[Hexachordia]

Stereotypical mongoloid looks( slit eyes, flat noses, round face) is ugly to commonsense, all ugly people look that way. Good looking asians check up Agnes Lum, Zhou Huimin.

[Fear Fiain]

Even the udmurts who only have 78% European genes but 22% ( variance 15 - 36% ) Mongoloid admixture have the highest red hair of European ethnicities


http://russianpickle.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/udmurt_people_red.jpg

so weird, they range in looks from "could pass in scotland" to "depigmented mestizos" to "depigmented chinese"