Linking Italy and the Balkans. A Y-chromosome perspective from the Arbereshe of Calabria

[Tacitus]

ABSTRACT The Arbereshe are an Albanian-speaking ethno-linguistic minority who settled in Calabria (southern Italy) about five centuries ago.
This study aims to clarify the genetic relationships between Italy and the Balkans through analysis of Y-chromosome variability in a peculiar case study, the Arbereshe.
Founder surnames were used as a means to identify a sample of individuals that might trace back to the Albanians at the time of their establishment in Italy. These results were compared with data of more than 1000 individuals from Italy and the Balkans.
The distributions of haplogroups (defined using 31 UEPs) and haplotypes (12 STRs) show that the Italian and Balkan populations are clearly divergent from each other. Within this genetic landscape, the Arbereshe are characterized by two peculiarities: (a) they are a clear outlier in the Italian genetic background, showing a strong genetic affinity with southern Balkans populations; and (b) they retain a high degree of genetic diversity.
These results support the hypothesis that the surname-chosen Arbereshe are representative of the Y-chromosome genetic variability of the Albanian founder population. Accordingly, the Arbereshe genetic structure can contribute to the interpretation of the recent biological history of the southern Balkans. Intra-haplogroup analyses suggest that this area may have experienced important changes in the last five centuries, resulting in a marked increase in the frequency of haplogroups I2a and J2.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/44693472_Linking_Italy_and_the_Balkans._A_Y-chromosome_perspective_from_the_Arbereshe_of_Calab ria


From the paper:
The Arbereshe are one of the largest linguistic minorities in Italy. They are the result of complicated movements of Albanians around the end of the 15th and beginning of the 16th century, often linked to the invasion of the Balkans by the Ottoman Empire. Despite that, it is generally agreed that most of the immigrants started moving from the south of Albania (Toskeria), with, very often, intermediate steps in Greece, particularly in the Peloponnese (Zangari 1941). Further evidence is provided by linguistic research, according to which Arberisht, the language spoken by Arbereshe, is part of the Tosk dialect group of Albanian, a language originally spoken in Toskeria (Babiniotis 1998).
On the sample:
The Arbereshe Y-chromosome variation was investigated by sampling individuals from different villages of the Pollino area (Calabria) who bear one of the founding surnames of the population. The genotyping was performed using 12 microsatellites (STRs) and 31 unique event polymorphisms (UEPs), defining, respectively, haplotypes and haplogroups. The Italian and Balkan genetic backgrounds were explored using the large amount of data provided by recent Y-chromosome studies in the two peninsulas and by literature data on STRs from forensic research.
Comparison of Y-haplogroup frequency and diversity between Albanians from Tirana and Arbereshe from Calabria (from Table III):


The presence of F*(xG,I,J,K) in Albanians is interesting as this occurs in Romania and Bosnia Herzegovina (all groups), and in South Apulia, It could potentially be haplogroup H and may reflect a Gypsy element that was not present when the Arbereshe moved to Italy from the Balkans.

Haplogroup I shows similar frequencies, but:
I-M170 is the most common Balkan haplogroup (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and the second most frequent Arbereshe clade. Nevertheless, analysis of its network reveals unexpected results: most of the Arbereshe I-M170 haplotypes are not included in the Balkan cluster (Figure 3), but are located in the long branches containing mainly Italian chromosomes. Comparisons with literature data (Semino et al. 2000; Barac et al. 2003, Rootsi et al. 2004) show that the core haplotype of the Balkan cluster (16-14-15-13-31-24-11-11-13; locus order as above) is consistent with the almost Balkan exclusive I2a (formerly I1b) clade. The proposed interpretation of the Arbereshe as a proxy of the founder Albanian population leads us to hypothesize that the I2a clade was less common in the southern Balkans 500 years ago than nowadays. The very tight shape of the I2a cluster in the network suggests a very recent expansion of this haplogroup in the southern Balkans. Furthermore, I2a is still rare in
mountain populations such as the Albanians of Kosovo (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and in a randomly selected Arbereshe sample from Rootsi et al. (2004).
This is an interesting finding in the light of recent evidence for selection in Y-haplogroup I.

The situation with J2 is also quite interesting as this is rarer in Arbereshe (3%) than Albanians (17%):
The scarcity of J2 chromosomes in the Arbereshe sample (1/40) is very difficult to explain, given that they are very common in both the Italian peninsula and the southern Balkans. Literature data on J2 indicate that most of the haplotypes included in the Balkan (B) cluster of the network (Figure 3) have an STR configuration consistent with the J2-M12 sub-clade (Di Giacomo et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004; Cruciani et al. 2007). In contrast, most of the haplotypes in the other clusters agree with the STR configuration given for the J2-M67 clade, with its sub-clade J2-M92 (Di Giacomo et al. 2004). It is unconvincing to attribute the rarity of J2 in the Arbereshe to random sampling or to the effect of genetic drift. Furthermore, the Arbereshe sample analysed by Semino et al. (2004) also completely lacks the typically Balkan J2-M12 chromosomes. If we interpret our Arbereshe sample as representative of the founding Albanian population, we may hypothesize that the J2 haplogroup was considerably less diffuse in the southern Balkans five centuries ago than today.
What we can conclude from this study is that the founding Albanian population was J2- and I2a- lite compared to modern Albanians. The source for the I2a seems to be either the Albanization of people from the West Balkans and/or selection, although it would be difficult to see a massive increase in frequency in only five centuries. The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast; this theory has been upheld in the past on the basis of the (i) their historical obscurity until the last millennium, and (ii) the paucity of native sea terms and Greek loanwords in Albanian, which is difficult to explain if Albanians always occupied their current location on the Adriatic.

The source of J2 is less clear, and could be either the Albanization of Greeks (the only Balkan population with a sizeable J2 frequency) or remnants of Muslim Anatolians from Ottoman times. However, modern Albanians belong mainly to clade J2b, while Anatolians belong to J2a. Thus, I tend to dismiss the Anatolian connection.

The low frequency of R1*x(R1a1) in the Arbereshe, together with the high E1b1b1a frequency are quite convincing of the Balkan origins of this population.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

[Black Wolf]

I know that J2 (J2b) among the Albanians is more frequent among the Ghegs compared to the Tosks. I believe it was Tosks who were the ancestors of the majority of the Arbereshe people who went to Italy therefore you would not expect much J2 to show up among the Arbereshe. Check out this study.


http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html

[alfieb]

I know that J2 (J2b) among the Albanians is more frequent among the Ghegs compared to the Tosks. I believe it was Tosks who were the ancestors of the majority of the Arbereshe people who went to Italy therefore you would not expect much J2 to show up among the Arbereshe. Check out this study.


Indeed.

[Tacitus]

[QUOTE=Jaxman;3057040]I know that J2 (J2b) among the Albanians is more frequent among the Ghegs compared to the Tosks. I believe it was Tosks who were the ancestors of the majority of the Arbereshe people who went to Italy therefore you would not expect much J2 to show up among the Arbereshe. Check out this study.

Nevermind, got my J subtypes mixed up.

[cally]

J2b came from Anatolia I think.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8388/8675629245_0f99cf87c3_o.jpg

[Black Wolf]

http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2010/12/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-from.html

J2a also seems consistent with bronze age collapse migrations from anatolia into the balkans as well as the colonization of sicily. (the BIOPROS study posted dates it around that time)

Where did J2b originate from then?

Yup I believe that J2a did not really begin to spread around much until the late Neolithic or Bronze Age. Collapses of certain civilizations may have contributed to it;s spread to some degree at least. J2b on the other hand is a bit more of a mystery. I always thought that J2b was linked to the first Neolithic farmers of Europe but so far none has shown up. Instead they are dominated by haplogroup G2a.

[Black Wolf]

J2b came from Anatolia I think.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8388/8675629245_0f99cf87c3_o.jpg

Ultimately I agree that J2b probably originated in Anatolia or the Trans-Caucasus like it's brother haplogroup J2a did but they do have quite different distributions today.

[Black Wolf]

Well there is tons of anthro evidence of large scale migrations from anatolia into greece in the helladic period, before the bronze age collapse even. Angel argued for a twin migration of greek-speaking peoples from the north as well as the east. Similarities of greek with Phrygian and Armenian are usually cited as evidence that anatolia was the PIE homeland (which seems bollocks to me) but these people carried all this into the ancient greek world before it's formation in the greek dark ages.

J2a fits that patern very well. J2b though (if we take the arbereshe hypothesis) seems a total newcomer to the region but it is also spread on the coast of asia minor.

So what gives?

Ya the migrations of J2a I think are easier to trace than J2b although we need more ancient DNA first before we make any conclusions. J2b is quite mystery indeed. It's frequencies among Balkan populations may relate to some old Anatolian population that settled there long ago and for some reason it survived in some amounts in Balkan groups such as Albanians today whereas it did not survive as much in Anatolia except for the coastal regions which are rather close to the Balkans anyways.

[Guapo]

Well there is tons of anthro evidence of large scale migrations from anatolia into greece in the helladic period, before the bronze age collapse even. Angel argued for a twin migration of greek-speaking peoples from the north as well as the east. Similarities of greek with Phrygian and Armenian are usually cited as evidence that anatolia was the PIE homeland (which seems bollocks to me) but these people carried all this into the ancient greek world before it's formation in the greek dark ages.

J2a fits that patern very well. J2b though (if we take the arbereshe hypothesis) seems a total newcomer to the region but it is also spread on the coast of asia minor.

So what gives?

Kosovar Albanians harbor a J2E frequency peak

[Black Wolf]

Kosovar Albanians harbor a J2E frequency peak

J2b (old J2e)....Pretty much all Kosovar Albanians are Gheg correct?

[Guapo]

J2b (old J2e)....Pretty much all Kosovar Albanians are Gheg correct?

Yeah and the high frequency is a founder effect. Probably inbred alot or something.

[Black Wolf]

Yeah and the high frequency is a founder effect. Probably inbred alot or something.

Well Kosovar Albanians do seem to come from a small founder group. Genetics pretty much proves it.

[Black Wolf]

Also


Phylogenetic relationships and Y-chromosome haplogroup absolute and relative frequencies in the following various populations: Anatolian Greeks, mainland Greeks, four regions in Turkey and Provence near known Neolithic settlements.King et al. BMC Evolutionary Biology 2011 11:69 doi:10.1186/1471-2148-11-69


according to this survey j2b1 m205 was present in Sesklo ( thessalia Greece) and Phokaia (ancient greek city on the western coast of anatolia)

So m205 was found in ancient greek sites both on the mainland and anatolia.

But the M205 samples from this study are from modern people correct?

[Black Wolf]

Yeah, they tested people with proven ancestry from those locations.

Weirdly enough it was found in all sites though. The majority was EV-13 but M205 was also found in good amounts. Seems to be absent outside those areas mostly.

Don't draw any conclusions btw, I'd wait for more samples. Maybe we just got lucky.

It is interesting to note that both E-V12 and J2b show up in large amounts among both Albanians and Greeks. Autosomal DNA also shows connections between Albanians and Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

In Sicily there is a split between the J2: some of it is Levantine, some is the Balkan type. I am unsure if anything similar happens on the mainland.

[Tacitus]

Also of note: R1a1 was found in 13% of the Arbereshe samples. Isn't that part of the Slavic branch of R1?

[Black Wolf]

No wonder. Clear what went on.

http://puu.sh/cfhM8.png

Unsurprisingly both R1a and J2 are found in upper caste hindus.

The J2 found among Upper Caste Brahmins though is mainly J2a which is a different clade than the J2b found among the Albanians although they are still close cousin haplogroups.

[Black Wolf]

Also of note: R1a1 was found in 13% of the Arbereshe samples. Isn't that part of the Slavic branch of R1?

It could be but deep subclade testing would need to be done to know for sure or not.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Also of note: R1a1 was found in 13% of the Arbereshe samples. Isn't that part of the Slavic branch of R1?

There were slavs who came with the Arbereshe, it's just that the Italians labeled all as Arbereshe due to them either being the dominant group or their leader himself.

Now where you see this R1a1a and is it present among Sicilians also?

[Black Wolf]

Indeed. There's no doubt in my mind that it was carried into anatolia and SE europe from indo-iranian groups during the bronze age or archeology and anthropologists have a lot to answer for.

And J2b remains a mystery.

You think J2a spread into Anatolia and SE Europe with Indo-Iranian speakers?

[Tacitus]

There were slavs who came with the Arbereshe, it's just that the Italians labeled all as Arbereshe due to them either being the dominant group or their leader himself.

Now where you see this R1a1a and is it present among Sicilians also?

I think Sikeliot's Sicilian side is R1a1a, which probably came over with the Normans since it can be found in Scandinavia too. I'm guessing it's pretty rare in Sicily.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I think Sikeliot's Sicilian side is R1a1a, which probably came over with the Normans since it can be found in Scandinavia too. I'm guessing it's pretty rare in Sicily.

At 13% they would have similar if not higher percentages of R1a1a as Serbs. Maybe there was Polish mercs with them, or this increased due to genetic drift. As for Sikeliot is his R1a1a from his Sicilian or Polish side?

[Skipetar]

I don't think J2b is that new as some people speculate here, it is found in fair amounts across Central Europe more so than J2a.

J2b
http://gentis.ru/img/y/M12.gif

[Tacitus]

At 13% they would have similar if not higher percentages of R1a1a as Serbs. Maybe there was Polish mercs with them, or this increased due to genetic drift. As for Sikeliot is his R1a1a from his Sicilian or Polish side?

It's Sicilian.

The other Balkan groups they list have similar R1a1 levels to the Arbereshe: Bosnian Serbs 14%; Bosnian Croats 12%, Bosnians 15%; Macedonians 14%; Greeks (Thrace) 22%; Albanians (Tirana) 13%. It's weird, the study didn't really discuss the presence of R1a1 at length, just saying it confirms the connection between the Arbereshe and the Balkans.

[Stefan_Dusan]

It's Sicilian.

The other Balkan groups they list have similar R1a1 levels to the Arbereshe: Bosnian Serbs 14%; Bosnian Croats 12%, Bosnians 15%; Macedonians 14%; Greeks (Thrace) 22%; Albanians (Tirana) 13%. It's weird, the study didn't really discuss the presence of R1a1 at length, just saying it confirms the connection between the Arbereshe and the Balkans.

Do Thracian Greeks really have such high levels of R1a1a? They are almost like Croats then.

[Skipetar]

Those Arbereshe Tosks were not the whole population so it's not worth to base it from that, different towns or regions carried different haplogroups. It's more mixed today.

J2a exists more in Anatolia-Caucasus
J2b mostly Albania

J2b
http://gentis.ru/img/y/M12.gif


J2a
http://gentis.ru/img/y/M67.gif

[Tacitus]

Do Thracian Greeks really have such high levels of R1a1a? They are almost like Croats then.

Apparently. I agree that number is pretty high, or higher than expected. It was from some other study.

[Skipetar]

Indeed. There's no doubt in my mind that it was carried into anatolia and SE europe from indo-iranian groups during the bronze age or archeology and anthropologists have a lot to answer for.

And J2b remains a mystery.

It's not really a mystery. J2b has been in Europe before J2a.

J2b has plenty of markers across Central Europe, even Finland and Sweden which J2a totally lacks presence in. J2b outnumbers J2a in other northern remote areas aswell.
See my previous post, it's a lack of space of J2b in Anatolia so it's been in Europe for quite some time.

[Samanta Fabris]

J2a is older than J2b. The oldest J2 haplotype found in Europe is a J2a1 from Bronze Age Hungary.

http://eurogenes.blogspot.it/2014/10/ancient-genomes-from-great-hungarian.html

[Skipetar]

There are many old remains yet to be found, only time will tell what date they show.

[Sikeliot]

My R1a is probably due to some sort of Ionian Greek input or something.

[Sikeliot]

What kind of cluster is it?

Cos Poland's got a lot of dem R1a candies.

Just R1a1a. But mine comes from my Sicilian side, not my Polish side.

[Geni]

Also of note: R1a1 was found in 13% of the Arbereshe samples. Isn't that part of the Slavic branch of R1?

This is not strange .. with slav mixed ..arbereshe were formed after great slavic invasion ..

[Skipetar]

This is not strange .. with slav mixed ..arbereshe were formed after great slavic invasion ..

Wrong. Could be pre-Slavic clade.

[Geni]

No..

[Stefan_Dusan]

Wrong. Could be pre-Slavic clade.

At 13%, given their surroundings and history, the majority of it will be slavic related clades. The minority will be some kind of extra R1a1a (Turks, Magyars, etc also get this R1a1a).

[Black Wolf]

Posted a map with it's distribution.

It seems likely. And there was a migration that brought iranoform types into anatolia and greece. Their remnants are all over the place.

Hard to say but I do not think that J2a spread into Anatolia and SE Europe with Indo-Iranian speakers. J2a probably originated in either Anatolia or the Trans-Caucasus and spread out from there. They probably spoke a language related to the present day Northeast Caucasian languages such as Ingush and Chechen. Some J2a groups may have adopted Indo-Iranian (European) speech at points in the past but I doubt they were the original speakers of those languages. That is more likely R1a1.

[Black Wolf]

I don't think J2b is that new as some people speculate here, it is found in fair amounts across Central Europe more so than J2a.

J2b
http://gentis.ru/img/y/M12.gif

J2b has quite a wide distribution. It is found in it's largest amounts in the Balkans and India as the map you posted shows.

[Black Wolf]

It's not really a mystery. J2b has been in Europe before J2a.

J2b has plenty of markers across Central Europe, even Finland and Sweden which J2a totally lacks presence in. J2b outnumbers J2a in other northern remote areas aswell.
See my previous post, it's a lack of space of J2b in Anatolia so it's been in Europe for quite some time.

That has yet to be proven. So far in ancient DNA remains no J2b has been found in Europe while J2a has been just recently. A late bronze age sample from Hungary has been shown to be J2a.

[Black Wolf]

Only 1 J2a sample was found and that from a baby.

And autosomally that baby was actually very West European like even though his Y-DNA haplogroup was J2a1. He clusters with modern day French based on autosomal DNA.

[Skipetar]

That has yet to be proven. So far in ancient DNA remains no J2b has been found in Europe while J2a has been just recently. A late bronze age sample from Hungary has been shown to be J2a.

But still only 1(J2a) has been found, time will tell for more ancient remains. There is no way J2b could have spread around entire Europe so fast within less than 2000 years.

[Black Wolf]

But still only 1(J2a) has been found, time will tell for more ancient remains. There is no way J2b could have spread around entire Europe so fast within less than 2000 years.

Yes time will tell. J2b does not really have a strong presence anywhere in Europe besides the Balkans. It has not been found among any European Neolithic farmers yet either. Many have speculated that it's presence in parts of Northern Europe relates to Balkan origin soldiers of the Roman Empire. Who knows how true that speculation is though. We need more ancient DNA.

[Skipetar]

Yes time will tell. J2b does not really have a strong presence anywhere in Europe besides the Balkans. It has not been found among any European Neolithic farmers yet either. Many have speculated that it's presence in parts of Northern Europe relates to Balkan origin soldiers of the Roman Empire. Who knows how true that speculation is though. We need more ancient DNA.

Maybe they(J2) cremated most of their dead rather than buried.

[Black Wolf]

Maybe they(J2) cremated most of their dead rather than buried.

Some groups did and some did not. J2b has yet to be found in ancient remains anywhere. The day will come though some time. As it stands right now we do not really know if J2a or J2b is older in Europe.

[Skipetar]

Some groups did and some did not. J2b has yet to be found in ancient remains anywhere. The day will come though some time. As it stands right now we do not really know if J2a or J2b is older in Europe.

My corpse will be ancient in 4000 years, no worries :thumb001:

[Black Wolf]

My corpse will be ancient in 4000 years, no worries :thumb001:

So I take it that you are J2b then? :D

[Skipetar]

So I take it that you are J2b then? :D
Indeed

[Black Wolf]

Indeed

Always good to see another J2 here! :cool:...J2a and J2b unite haha! :P

[Skipetar]

Always good to see another J2 here! :cool:...J2a and J2b unite haha! :P

The limelight is soon on us xD

[Black Wolf]

The limelight is soon on us! xD

It has always been and always will be. M172 rules! :rockon:

[Ulla]

There were slavs who came with the Arbereshe, it's just that the Italians labeled all as Arbereshe due to them either being the dominant group or their leader himself.

Now where you see this R1a1a and is it present among Sicilians also?

Italians didn't label anyone. Arbereshe is a self proclaimed name. Arbereshe were all named "Greeks" for centuries, while the Slavs were all called Schiavoni in Italy. There is still some places in South Italy that recall the name Schiavoni. BTW in South Italy there are also some Croat communities. If there were Slavs with the Arbereshe is possible that they were assimilated by Arbereshe.

[Skipetar]

Italians didn't label anyone. Arbereshe is a self proclaimed name. The Arbereshe were all named "Greeks" for centuries, while the Slavs were all called Schiavoni in Italy. There is still some places in South Italy that recall the name Schiavoni. BTW in South Italy there are also some Croat communities. If there were Slavs with the Arbereshe is possible that they were assimilated by Arbereshe.

Arbereshe are Byzantine Catholics, formerly Orthodox. Interesting that Scanderbeg, a Gheg brought mostly Tosks with him to Italy.
Proves even more that the Tosks and Ghegs were basically the same.

[Black Wolf]

Arbereshe are Byzantine Catholics, formerly Orthodox. Interesting that Scanderbeg, a Gheg brought mostly Tosks with him to Italy.

Yes my understanding is that the Arbereshe are mostly of Tosk stock.

[Ulla]

Arbereshe are Byzantine Catholics, formerly Orthodox. Interesting that Scanderbeg, a Gheg brought mostly Tosks with him to Italy.

True.

Probably some Catholic Ghegs migrated to the Venice Republic. But Scanderbeg himself moved to South Italy along with the Arbereshe.

Arbereshe were Byzantine Orthodoxs. As I know, they were forced to become Catholics in South Italy.

[Skipetar]

True.

Probably some Catholic Ghegs migrated to the Venice Republic. But Scanderbeg himself moved to South Italy along with the Arbereshe.

Arbereshe were Byzantine Orthodoxs. They were forced to become Catholic.

Proves that Ghegs and Tosks were united even back then.

[Arbërori]

The Slavs that came with the Arbereshe were most likely Bulgarians or Gorani Bulgarians, many Slavs left the Gora region in Albania for Italy, I remember reading an article about this.

As of the Arbereshe, majority are Tosk, the Ghegs settled more in the North. I believe the later also assimilated much faster than the previous.

[Black Wolf]

Proves that Ghegs and Tosks were united even back then.

BTW which tribe/clan are you from? I am curious.

[Skipetar]

The Slavs that came with the Arbereshe were most likely Bulgarians or Gorani Bulgarians, many Slavs left the Gora region in Albania for Italy, I remember reading an article about this.

As of the Arbereshe, majority are Tosk, the Ghegs settled more in the North. I believe the later also assimilated much faster than the previous.

Gheg/Tosk division was not as clear back then as it is today, sure the dialects were different.
Ultimately it was all Arberor/Arvanit/Arbanit.

[Skerdilaid]

Arbereshe are Byzantine Catholics, formerly Orthodox. Interesting that Scanderbeg, a Gheg brought mostly Tosks with him to Italy.
Proves even more that the Tosks and Ghegs were basically the same.

Gjergj Kastrioti (Skenderbeg) himself did not "bring" anyone to Italy, except some small fraction of his army that decided to stay behind after his expedition against Angevins (about 500). Most of today's Arbreshe that have preserved their culture actually decent from the Stratioti that settled there in 1500s. Their memory of Gjergj Kastrioti goes back to when they aided his son Gjon Kastrioti in an attempt to take Himara and the surrounding area in 1481, which also Himariots joined his forces, but the attempt failed. In the aftermath of that event some Himariots moved to Italy during that time, and they mostly settled in Piana degli Albanesi ( which strengthened the Skenderbeg cult).

[Samanta Fabris]

Hard to say but I do not think that J2a spread into Anatolia and SE Europe with Indo-Iranian speakers. J2a probably originated in either Anatolia or the Trans-Caucasus and spread out from there. They probably spoke a language related to the present day Northeast Caucasian languages such as Ingush and Chechen. Some J2a groups may have adopted Indo-Iranian (European) speech at points in the past but I doubt they were the original speakers of those languages. That is more likely R1a1.

Actually I do think that the J2 in the Caucasus is younger than the one in Europe.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

[Black Wolf]

Actually I do think that the J2 in the Caucasus is younger than the one in Europe.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

Interesting...What makes you think that?