William the Silent: German or Dutch?

[Visitor_22]

William the Silent, also known as William of Orange was the main leader of the Dutch revolt against the Spanish that set off the Eighty Years' War and resulted in the formal independence of the United Provinces in 1648. He was born in the House of Nassau as Count of Nassau-Dillenburg. He became Prince of Orange in 1544 and is thereby the founder of the branch House of Orange-Nassau and the ancestor of the monarchy of the Netherlands.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/WilliamOfOrange1580.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Antonio_Moro_-_Willem_I_van_Nassau.jpg


He was born german (Hessen), but he fought for independence of the Netherlands... So who he really was?

[Visitor_22]

Wilhelmus van Nassouwe
ben ik, van Duitsen bloed,
den vaderland getrouwe
blijf ik tot in den dood.
Een Prinse van Oranje
ben ik, vrij, onverveerd,
den Koning van Hispanje
heb ik altijd geëerd.


Mijn schild ende betrouwen
zijt Gij, o God mijn Heer,
op U zo wil ik bouwen,
Verlaat mij nimmermeer.
Dat ik doch vroom mag blijven,
uw dienaar t'aller stond,
de tirannie verdrijven
die mij mijn hart doorwondt.
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In English:



William of Nassau, scion
Of a German and ancient line,
I dedicate undying
Faith to this land of mine.
A prince am I undaunted,
Of Orange, ever free,
To the king of Spain I've granted
A lifelong loyalty.

A shield and my reliance,
O God, Thou ever wert.
I'll trust unto Thy guidance.
O leave me not ungirt.
That I may stay a pious
Servant of Thine for aye
And drive the plagues that try us
And tyranny away.
[/CENTER]
[/FONT]



"Duitsen" here originally was "Duytchen".


He looked very german like...

http://farm9.static.flickr.com/8033/7942585220_2be843684b.jpg

[Visitor_22]

...

[Visitor_22]

(...!)

[The Lawspeaker]

I'd say German. If we were to look at his heritage: he didn't speak Dutch, he was born in Germany and his family owned land here and there but they weren't Dutch (in fact the very titles say so: d'Orange, von Nassau. Doesn't sound very Dutch now, does it ?) But he died as the greatest patriot that ever lived.

[Rudel]

(in fact the very titles say so: d'Orange, von Nassau. Doesn't sound very Dutch now, does it ?)
Must be French, then :whistle:

The notion of nationality wasn't really prevalent at the time, so the debate is inane.

[Virtuous]

Looks more Dutch to me.

[The Lawspeaker]

Must be French, then :whistle:

The notion of nationality wasn't really prevalent at the time, so the debate is inane.

Probably a mixture of both French and German but it doesn't really matter all that much. There was no real concept of nationality. You had nobility on one side and regional identities (for the common folk) on the other. Most people in the 16th century considered the village three miles down the road to be alien territory. And Dutch ? There was no such thing. Every fiefdom here hated each others gut. The Hollanders vs Frisians vs Guelders vs Brabant. Forever and ever and ever. Until the Burgundians and then the Spanish came in. And then we suddenly had a common enemy.

[Wolf]

He was born german (Hessen), but he fought for independence of the Netherlands... So who he really was?

He was both because the difference between Dutch and Germans is not really ethnical. BTW, the high nobility is mostly of mixed origin.

[The Lawspeaker]

He was both because the difference between Dutch and Germans is not really ethnical. BTW, the high nobility is mostly of mixed origin.
We're all boche anyway. :thumb001:

[blogen]

This question is meaningless, since the Dutch and Deutsch are same thing.

[Wolf]

We're all boche anyway. :thumb001:

Well, you're not "Krauts" although you eat it too. :(

[The Lawspeaker]

Well, you're not "Krauts" although you eat it too. :(

We're all krauts, mate. We're just the better krauts. :P

[Wolf]

We're all krauts, mate. We're just the better krauts. :P

This title belongs to the Austrians. ;)

[The Lawspeaker]

This title belongs to the Austrians. ;)

Fuck that. They didn't take over the world. We did. :D

[Hevo]

This question is meaningless, since the Dutch and Deutsch are same thing.

Genetically Western Dutch people don't cluster with Germans so that's debateable.

Willem the Silent was of mixed origin because he was of high nobility but i would say rather German than Dutch.

[Wolf]

Genetically Western Dutch people don't cluster with Germans so that's debateable.

I suppose that Northern Germans don't cluster with Southern Germans very well, too.

Considering the size of the German population, variations are probable.

[Hevo]

I suppose that Northern Germans don't cluster with Southern Germans very well, too.

I suppose that (Western) Dutch people and Germans are not the same like you guys claim.;) TA member Ruben's mother for example is pure Northern Dutch and cluster far from Germans.(even North Germans)

[Äijä]

Genetically Western Dutch people don't cluster with Germans so that's debateable.

Willem the Silent was of mixed origin because he was of high nobility but i would say rather German than Dutch.

They dont cluster with NW Germans?

[Äijä]

I suppose that (Western) Dutch people and Germans are not the same like you guys claim.;) TA member Ruben's mother for example is pure Northern Dutch and cluster far from Germans.(even North Germans)

Who are the Western Dutch and who do they cluster with? Very interesting. What about the Flaams?

[Wolf]

I suppose that (Western) Dutch people and Germans are not the same like you guys claim.

Peoples in general, and large peoples in particular, aren't uniform "like you guys claim".



;) TA member Ruben's mother for example is pure Northern Dutch and cluster far from Germans.(even North Germans)

Maybe she also clusters far from other Dutch. :noidea:

[Hevo]

They dont cluster with NW Germans?

Well based on the Eurogenes results their close populations are usually South East English people/Danes but however they don't cluster to far away from NW Germans and there are a few exceptions.

Dienekes had a good study about it, i will look it up.

[Hevo]

Peoples in general, and large peoples in particular, aren't uniform "like you guys claim".


You said that ''between Dutch and Germans is not really ethnical'' but that is not true as i stated.

Anyway, Dutch are not a type of German, it's a type of Germanic, just like the (northern) Germans are. Saying Dutch are a type of German is ridiculous since the Dutch nation existed long before the German nation.



Maybe she also clusters far from other Dutch. :noidea:

Nope she clusters with Northern Dutch people.;)

[Visitor_22]

You said that ''between Dutch and Germans is not really ethnical'' but that is not true as i stated.

Anyway, Dutch are not a type of German, it's a type of Germanic, just like the (northern) Germans are. Saying Dutch are a type of German is ridiculous since the Dutch nation existed long before the German nation.


Nope she clusters with Northern Dutch people.;)



How they existed long before the germans? Didn't they existed since 16-17'th century?



Even their language is very close to northern german languages.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4WTn4QBp38

[Visitor_22]

As for english and danes...


They are genetically different mostly.
Only small population from that lands which were under "Danish Law" and people from Kent have something to do with danes.



BTW this danish guy looks very english! :)


http://payload221.cargocollective.com/1/13/429713/6726186/juliansonnewulff.jpg

http://www.unique.dk/CropUp/580x-M/media/381333/mab_0914.jpg

http://www.whynotmodels.com/pictures/3023/3023_351276.jpg

[Wolf]

Anyway, Dutch are not a type of German, it's a type of Germanic, just like the (northern) Germans are.

You're right, that's a huge difference. :rolleyes:



Saying Dutch are a type of German is ridiculous since the Dutch nation existed long before the German nation.

According to you, Germans didn't exist before 18th January 1871? :picard1:

[Hevo]

You're right, that's a huge difference. :rolleyes:


Danes,Swedes,Norwegians etc are also subsets of Germanics so yeah there is a difference between subsets of Germanics like Dutch people and subsets of Germans like Austrians.:)