On Turkey and the Turks

[Equinox]

Hello,

Inspired by this thread (http://************/42d7zd) I would like to create a thread about the genetic and cultural assimilation of people from Turkey into European lands and gene-pools.

I am starting a thread about this, but it does not follow that I am a proponent of multiracial relationships or believe that Turks are necessarily European.

This is about addressing an issue that I do not believe has been addressed before. Obviously it is something that can very easily degenerate into a flame-war. Thus I would appreciate it is people posted sources, asked reasonable questions and left counter-productive statements and opinions to themselves.

If anyone has found any studies on the genetic make-up of the average Turk, or inhabitant of Turkey, it would be grand if you could post them.

There seems to be a lot of ambiguity surrounding what constitutes a "Turk". For example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Turkey#Turkic).



Regards,
Equinox

[The Khagan]

I've always wondered, me being an Indo-European fetishist, how much of the genetic legacy was carried over from the Hittites into modern Turks. I've noticed upon looking at anthropological portraits of Turkish people (Blame stormfront and google for that one) that more easterly Turks, notably ones around Ankara* and farther east, are lighter on average. Has always made me curious of the population genetics of Anatolia as a whole what with the waves of immigrants, invasions and whatnot. Iranic peoples (Kurds, Persian Empire) have historically and contemporaneously occupied Eastern areas of the region.

According to most, the population of Anatolia is pretty indigenous, going back a couple thousand years at least. Only language being enforced by a dominant minority and conquering force.

*Ankara has Hittite, Roman, Persian and Celtic history.

[December]

You mean this?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg/800px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png

Memories only.

There's nothing celtic or european there anymore. Physical traces you may find many. Spiritual and cultural traces? maybe if you go to some ruins, shut senses and do a time warp by yourself.

It's an interesting exercise to detect european look-alikes in Turkey or even in Iran: you'll certainly find many which look undoubtely euro. But why to do so? They all live in a culture completely alien to us. And it's not as they are enslaved, they are really part of it.

[The Khagan]

Uh, people of Iranic and Anatolian origin are wholly caucasoid and far more European looking than their Arab neighbors. Hell, the major Y Haplogroup in Turkey is R1b.

Edit: and aside from Iran, Turks certainly do not live in a culture so far off from Europe, ever since Ataturk's reforms, Turkey has been pretty Western, especially relative to what surrounds it.

[December]

Uh, people of Iranic and Anatolian origin are wholly caucasoid and far more European looking than their Arab neighbors. Hell, the major Y Haplogroup in Turkey is R1b.

But, how can that be resourceful for us?

[Agrippa]

The truth is simple: Turkey is a big country and the Turkish people a mixed bunch.

There are still a lot of rather European and a lot very progressive racial forms in Turkey and there are some basic principles to consider:

- The real Turkic genetic influence, the influence from the Asiatic steppe people and Mongoloid blood in particular, is rather small.

- The great majority of todays Turks being descendents of pre-Turkic people

- There is and always was a West-East gradient, the European Turks (autochthonous) and those from Western Anatolia, especially along the coastline in the South West, being much more European in racial character, than those from Central Anatolia or further East.

- In ancient times the whole region was more European Europid, but that changed with the climate and racial change (Mediterranid -> Anadolid-Alpinoid in the Anatolian highlands which became dryer), as well as the influx of other people.

- There seems to be also a social stratification, with those from the higher classes being more often closer to Europeans and of course progressive than the average, yet the Anatolian lower classes.

- In the East live Kurds, these Kurds belong in their core group to a very progressive racial form, the Iranid type with Nordoid influences, yet the "village-Kurds" which dont descent all from the free herder-warrior Kurds, are a mixed bunch like the Anatolian Turks. In any case, even the progressive-harmonious Iranids are no Europeans, they represent a foreign racial form, one of quality, but still.


The problem with those having an European racial phenotype is, besides their ethnocultural identity and religious confession, that they often have recessive traits of foreign character. So quite often, if looking at the rest of the family, they show the foreign traits, even if the individual doesnt.

But again, especially in European Turkey, former Thracia and Western coastal Turkey, as well as parts of Istanbul etc., one can find a lot of basically European phenotypes - racial forms.

I might also add, that the vast majority of Turks which migrated to Germany, Austria, Switzerland etc, obviously doesnt belong to those Turks I mean, but are mostly lower level Anatolian Turks. So what the average Central European sees of Turks in his own country, is not just foreign, its also not the best Turkey has to offer, but quite often the opposite, by education, culture, religious beliefs, race, intelligence etc.

Thats one of the reasons why many Turks of the better sort look down upon those which live in varioius European countries, at least the average representatives.

Most of the higher level Turks come as students, scientists or businessmen to Europe I might add, and they are not too many so far.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Uh, people of Iranic and Anatolian origin are wholly caucasoid and far more European looking than their Arab neighbors. Hell, the major Y Haplogroup in Turkey is R1b.

Edit: and aside from Iran, Turks certainly do not live in a culture so far off from Europe, ever since Ataturk's reforms, Turkey has been pretty Western, especially relative to what surrounds it.

Seeing how you're an American it would make sense you'd spout this much ignorance. Have you ever heard of a band called the Bashi-Bazouks? They were irregular soldiers who served under the Sultan. They became so famous because one of the biggest massacres perpetrated by the Turks were done by the Bashi-Bazouks who slaughtered more than 15,000 Bulgarians.


Schuyler's group spent three weeks visiting Batak and other villages where massacres had taken place. Schuyler's official report, published in November 1876, said that fifty-eight villages in Bulgaria had been destroyed, five monasteries demolished, and fifteen thousand people in all massacred. The report was reprinted as a booklet and widely circulated in EuropeDoes that sounds like what Europeans would do? I don't think so. Your fetish with Turks disgusts me, and you considering them European disgusts me even further.

Here is a famous painting which is a VERY good representative of what the Bashi-bazouk scum did.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Konstantin_Makovsky_-_The_Bulgarian_martyresses.jpg

Now, regarding to the genetics of Turks, no they are not genetically Europeans. Sure, some of them may have some European genes but having some European genes does not qualify them to be considered European otherwise we might as well consider halfbreed blacks in America who possess partly European ancestry thanks to race-mixing as European, eh?

Turkey
1

4

0.5

7.5

15

11

21

12.5

11

2

2

4


From eupedia.com, and they only categorize European Y-dna but I'll bet your rear that they have a whole lot of Asiatic Y-dna not listed on this website. As you can see from the chart above they have a lot of "Anatolian" (J2 or light green), and Arabic, Semitic genes (J1 or dark green). The predominance of Arabic genes within them is just enough to disqualify them. Not to mention the whole lot of Asiatic genes within them from their Seljuk, Ottoman ancestors have already disqualified them. And you might have noticed that they have a lot of everything meaning they are mongrels compared an average European country.

Let's compare them to France and Bulgaria.


Bulgaria
3

33

1

14

18

1

17

0

12

1

0

0


France
9.5

3

4

2.5

61

5

7

0

7

1

0

0


As you might have noticed, the Y-dna within both countries are more concentrated. The Bulgarians have a lot of Danubian (I2a or dark blue), and Celtic (R1b or red), and Slavic (R1a or orange). Meanwhile France has a lot of Nordic (I or teal), and Celtic (R1b or red).

What the average Turk looks like, not Turkificied Europeans of the Janissary-era.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0amq97OeS83kj/610x.jpghttp://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/new-imagebank/people/turkey_gul.jpg

Plus just look at the flag of Turkey, doesn't that just SCREAM non-European? The crescent is a symbol of Islam, I just don't get it sometimes, why would Europeans like you accept them, they are the ANTITHESIS of everything European.

[The Khagan]

Seeing how you're an American it would make sense you'd spout this much ignorance. Have you ever heard of a band called the Bashi-Bazouks? They were irregular soldiers who served under the Sultan. They became so famous because one of the biggest massacres perpetrated by the Turks were done by the Bashi-Bazookas who slaughtered more than 15,000 Bulgarians.
Does that sounds like what Europeans would do? I don't think so. Your fetish with Turks disgusts me, and you considering them European disgusts me even further.

Here is a famous painting which is a VERY good representative of what the Bashi-bazouk scum did.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Konstantin_Makovsky_-_The_Bulgarian_martyresses.jpg

Now, regarding to the genetics of Turks, no they are not genetically Europeans. Sure, some of them may have some European genes but having some European genes does not qualify them to be considered European otherwise we might as well consider halfbreed blacks in America who possess partly European ancestry thanks to race-mixing as European, eh?

Turkey
1

4

0.5

7.5

15

11

21

12.5

11

2

2

4


From eupedia.com, and they only categorize European Y-dna but I'll bet your rear that they have a whole lot of Asiatic Y-dna not listed on this website. As you can see from the chart above they have a lot of "Anatolian" (J2 or light green), and Arabic, Semitic genes (J1 or dark green). The predominance of Arabic genes within them is just enough to disqualify them. Not to mention the whole lot of Asiatic genes within them from their Seljuk, Ottoman ancestors have already disqualified them. And you might have noticed that they have a lot of everything meaning they are mongrels compared an average European country.

Let's compare them to France and Bulgaria.


Bulgaria
3

33

1

14

18

1

17

0

12

1

0

0


France
9.5

3

4

2.5

61

5

7

0

7

1

0

0


As you might have noticed, the Y-dna within both countries are more concentrated. The Bulgarians have a lot of Danubian (I2a or dark blue), and Celtic (R1b or red), and Slavic (R1a or orange). Meanwhile France has a lot of Nordic (I or teal), and Celtic (R1b or red).

What the average Turk looks like, not Turkificied Europeans of the Janissary-era.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0amq97OeS83kj/610x.jpghttp://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/new-imagebank/people/turkey_gul.jpg

Plus just look at the flag of Turkey, doesn't that just SCREAM non-European? The crescent is a symbol of Islam, I just don't get it sometimes, why would Europeans like you accept them, they are the ANTITHESIS of everything European.




Haha, such a cop out, because being American is a prerequisite for ignorance, right?

Actually yes, slaughtering 15,000 people sounds very European. I'd hate to break this to you man, but people kill people, doesn't make the Turks any less Europid or Western for it. Germans slaughtered millions of people as well as fellow Europeans, not to mention the fiasco that was the Bosnian War, which South Slavs killed other South Slavs. Little close to home eh? Europe has a history written in blood of other Europeans and peoples.

I never said the Turks as a whole were European, their phenotype is Europid, their history is intrinsically tied with the European continent and for a majority muslim country, they are very western and secular. I used genetics to back up my claim, however, genetics matter very little. And no, they don't have "hidden" asiatic genes. The population is pretty indigenous.

You've got an obvious bias, exemplified by what you said about their flag. That's entirely subjective, and why does that even matter? They're muslim, you wanna go chastise some Balkan muslims while you're at it too?

Also, I'm not European... I'm American.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Haha, such a cop out, because being American is a prerequisite for ignorance, right?

Considering how your recent post is seething with ignorance. I'd say yes.


Actually yes, slaughtering 15,000 people sounds very European. I'd hate to break this to you man, but people kill peopleSure, people kill people but you're a twat because you don't know what the Bashi-Bazouks are. Go do some research. Maybe start at the kindergarten level, like wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashi-bazouks).

To think Turks "Europid", HAHAHA. You're mentally damaged.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0amq97OeS83kj/610x.jpg



You've got an obvious bias, exemplified by what you said about their flag. You're stupid, their flag is who they are.


That's entirely subjective, and why does that even matter? They're muslim, you wanna go chastise some Balkan muslims while you're at it too?
Islam is THE antithesis of everything we believe in. Islam is a multicultural religion. Please go kill yourself.


Also, I'm not European... I'm American.Sure, you're American by nationality but ethnically European although I have doubts that you are judging how pro-Turk you are.

[The Khagan]

Considering how your recent post is seething with ignorance. I'd say yes.
Sure, people kill people but you're a twat because you don't know what the Bashi-Bazouks are. Go do some research. Maybe start at the kindergarten level, like wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashi-bazouks).

To think Turks "Europid", HAHAHA. You're mentally damaged.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0amq97OeS83kj/610x.jpg

You're stupid, their flag is who they are.
Islam is THE antithesis of everything we believe in. Islam is a multicultural religion. Please go kill yourself.
Sure, you're American by nationality but ethnically European although I have doubts that you are judging how pro-Turk you are.

I'm not pro-Turk, nothing that I've stated has any connotations of me being pro-Turk. I have no feelings, negative or positive towards Turkish people. However, I will give them the benefit of the doubt for being undeniably Western in juxtaposition to their other Muslim neighbors.

Who's we? And what do "we" believe in?

All I got from that wikipedia article was that they were somewhat like hired mercenaries, what's so horrible about that?

Andhttp://72.18.199.86/websites/turkish/static/images/tc_pictures/upload/94/hemsin4_jpg_1.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3332/3576153120_14546b904b.jpg

http://euro2008girls.com/pics/turkish_girls-500x353.jpg

Yep, totally NOT Europid/Caucasian. The population is extremely varied and diverse, but almost all of them fit under the Caucasoid/Europid phenotype.

Your patronizing and condescending comments add nothing to your argument and truly show your zealous bias going as far to post my picture on here and say that someone of primarily Irish and Swedish extraction to be a Turkish mongrel. I'd consider actually giving me something substantial to work with here, all it does is make you look foolish and unintelligent.

and how do I look Turkish?

[Loki]

Cut out the personal insults. Debate the topic without having to resort to that.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I'm not going to waste my time with someone who has only cyber-knowledge of Turks compared to me who has been on the frontlines for many times. I'm going to bow out and let you post pictures of Janissary-era Turkified Europeans.

[Genetic_Lysenko]

Is there really so big difference between modern Turks and, let´s say Greeks?:rolleyes:

[Monolith]

Is there really so big difference between modern Turks and, let´s say Greeks?:rolleyes:
Greeks are much more homogeneous than Turks are.

[Agrippa]

Is there really so big difference between modern Turks and, let´s say Greeks?:rolleyes:

Simple put, whats a small minority in Greeks makes up the majority in Turks.

Its not about the genetic legacy of the Neolithic, not even the potential Semitic influence, but the Armenoid-Anadolid - Asian Alpinoid-Aralid spectrum.

Armenoid variants are pretty rare in Greece, though they occur as a minority element here and there, they are in no way representative and those which occur are mostly on the more Anadolid or progressive Armenoid side.

Turks on the other hand, especially talking about the Anatolian ones, are a totally different thing from a racial standpoint. As I said, there are many European-like Turks, but thats not the majority, whereas in Greece European phenotypes are the CLEAR majority without a doubt.

Most Turks which look European are Islamised Greeks, Slavs, Germanics (mercenaries and slaves) etc. (to many people crossed Anatolia to name them all) anyway, but the great majority of Anatolians are Europid, but not of the European spectrum, as pointed out.

So there is no clear cut border between Greece and Turkey, but thats due to the biohistorical facts mentioned. Actually, if those Western and coastal Turks of today would be Greek Christians by culture and ethnicity, I would count them as Europeans obviously, but they are Muslims, they are by ethnicity Turkish and they mixed with the Asian Turkic people and Anatolian groups to a large extend.

If I would accept a Turk as a "candidate" for becoming European: Only on an individual base, which would also mean to forget a lot of his/her ethnocultural and religious background, if being fit by the other, the biological traits, quasi a "conversion back to the European orientation".

The same is largely true for large parts of North Africa, which were really just "Greater Europe" for a certain time, yet now the Arabs, Islam and Negroid slaves changed the picture drastically, even more so than in most parts of Turkey.

Even worse Central Asia, which was once integral part of
"Greater Europe" and is now Turko-Mongol and predominantely Mongoloid or Mongoloid-Europid mixed territory. Things change, not always in favour of our people so to say...

[Goidelic]

Turkey has 12.5% of J1 as a Semitic (Arabic, Jewish) marker, higher than any place in Europe.

"Turkey is the only country that includes a sizeable percentage of Asian and African haplogroups not listed in this table (A, ExE1b1b, C, H, L, O, R2) representing 8.5% of the total. Haplogroup L alone makes up 4% of the Turkish population."

http://eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Agrippa]

Turkey has 12.5% of J1 as a Semitic (Arabic, Jewish) marker, higher than any place in Europe.

"Turkey is the only country that includes a sizeable percentage of Asian and African haplogroups not listed in this table (A, ExE1b1b, C, H, L, O, R2) representing 8.5% of the total. Haplogroup L alone makes up 4% of the Turkish population."

http://eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Thats no surprise, but even more interesting would be if there is a gradient from the South East to the West of Turkey, which I would assume, because even the Turks themselves know about the "Turkicised Arabs", yet I doubt they made in in significant numbers to places like Thracia or the Western coast, which again, would just reflect the general dichotomy of Turkey in a Western and Eastern part.

Of course, even Hellenism and the Byzantine Empire led to mixture, even more so in the Ottoman empire and modern Turkey, yet I think the gradient is still significant, phenotypes seems to prove it too.

Usually the most European variants can be seen in the army, students and generally the higher social classes, as well as all people of the formerly Greek West, with the Anatolian highlands being dominated by much more foreign elements and the more East one goes, the more Near Eastern in a Semitic-Assyrian-Southern Caucasian way they become.

[Dondurma]

They don't belong to teh genetic Europe.

[Monolith]

They don't belong to teh genetic Europe.
This sounds strangely familiar :D

[Cail]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3332/3576153120_14546b904b.jpg
This must be a tourist, lol. There are european-looking Turks, but not like that. He wouldn't stick out in Scandinavia or Baltic states.

[Agrippa]

Actually me and a friend, both interested in anthropology, went in a club some time ago and we both speculated about a very Nordid looking girl's and her Alpinoid friends ancestry. When talking to them, they were both Turks. Similarly surprised when a very Norid looking guy began to talk in a Cafe in Turkish to others, or having met employees with Turkish names and a very Central to Northern European appearance.

So there are, very Nordid, Norid and light Cromagnid (~Dalofaelid) variants in Turkey, which all look Northern Central to even Northern European. I can't say anything about this single individual, but I personally saw more than one already and got the info about even more in various parts of Turkey.

Whatever their background, they exist as a small minority, especially in the West and upper social classes, but infrequently throughout the country. And its very important to stress that its not just pigmentation by chance, but "the whole package", including facial features, body build, height etc. in some.

[Loki]

So there are, very Nordid, Norid and light Cromagnid (~Dalofaelid) variants in Turkey, which all look Northern Central to even Northern European. I can't say anything about this single individual, but I personally saw more than one already and got the info about even more in various parts of Turkey.


Indeed, like Boris Johnson, who apparently inherited his extreme blondism from his Anatolian relatives.

http://www.thelondondailynews.com/images/boris-johnson.JPG

[Goidelic]

Interesting, as Boris' great-grandfather looked like an average Turk. Maybe this blondism was recessive on his great-grandfather's part? :cool::confused:

http://fotoanaliz.hurriyet.com.tr/LiveImages%5CYeniFotoAnaliz%5CTürkiye%27de%20son%2 0100%20yılda%20suikast%20sonucu%20öldürülen%20gaze teciler%5C03%20alikemalbey.jpg

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/05_04/042JohnsonMOS_228x775.jpg

[Loki]

Interesting, as Boris' great-grandfather looked like an average Turk. Maybe this blondism was recessive on his great-grandfather's part? :cool::confused:


How can you accurately assess hair colour on such an old black-and-white picture? But yes, apparently it ran in that part of his family, and blondism was common in the Turkish village they came from.

As for their facial features -- one can clearly see the relation. :)

[The Khagan]

This must be a tourist, lol. There are european-looking Turks, but not like that. He wouldn't stick out in Scandinavia or Baltic states.

Haha, I realized that after re-assessing the blog in which it came from. This is probably the tourist that wrote the blog, the other ones I posted are Turks though

[Baccalar]

This sounds strangely familiar :D

Why this grinning smiley? You are mocking such a serious issue like the dilution of teh genetic Europe in future? Our beautiful genepool is being torn to pieces. I want a Europe in which its races and subraces thrive and not a mestizo Europe that goes to church every sunday.

[Марко Краљевић]

OK, we can definitely claim that some Turks have pure European traits. The question remains how many of them are there, in percentage I mean?

And heard that so called White Turks are staunch nationalists who vote exclusively for kemalists. If we are to look it that way, on the last elections kemalist party won over 7 million votes.

This is article about White Turks:

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/columnists-177416-the-poverty-of-the-white-turks.html

[Saruman]

OK, we can definitely claim that some Turks have pure European traits. The question remains how many of them are there, in percentage I mean?

And heard that so called White Turks are staunch nationalists who vote exclusively for kemalists. If we are to look it that way, on the last elections kemalist party won over 7 million votes.

This is article about White Turks:

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/columnists-177416-the-poverty-of-the-white-turks.html

Indeed I have noticed that generally the more European Turks, the more natinalist they are and less religious they are.

I can list some european looking generals:

http://www.hvkk.tsk.tr/PageSub/Calismalarimiz/Faaliyetler/pageImages/devirTeslim/hvkkFarukC%C3%B6mert.jpg
http://www.tsk.tr/10_ARSIV/10_1_Basin_Yayin_Faaliyetleri/10_1_6_Toplantilar/yas_agustos2004/buyukanit.jpg
http://arsiv.sabah.com.tr/2005/04/19/im//BFFC4ECDB8EA4F47A31A044Ab.jpg

right
http://www.tekirdag.gov.tr/haberresim/kom.jpg
http://www.haberciniz.biz/images/other/albay-ali-oz-bursa-adliyesine-geldi-01.jpg
http://www.dzkk.tsk.tr/Turkce/FAALIYETLER/DUYURULAR/DHOKURULUSYD271106/d%20%28209%29.jpg

http://resim.samanyoluhaber.com/resim/hayri.jpg

http://www.gasteci.com/foto/lersoz.JPG

http://www.kayserigundem.com/haberresim/shd04.jpg


http://www.haberyenigun.com/resimler%5Chaber%5Cuvalc.jpg

http://www.hvkk.tsk.tr/App_Themes/HvkkTheme1/Image/HaberImages/buyukImage/havateknik_01.jpg

http://www.sgk.tsk.tr/baskanliklar/genel_sekreterlik/komutanlarimiz/atilla_kezek/atilla_kezek.JPG

Of higher officers I'll maybe estimate when I get more time number of European, border case, and non european looking.

[Марко Краљевић]

Indeed I have noticed that generally the more European Turks, the more natinalist they are and less religious they are.

I can list some european looking generals:

http://www.hvkk.tsk.tr/PageSub/Calismalarimiz/Faaliyetler/pageImages/devirTeslim/hvkkFarukC%C3%B6mert.jpg
http://www.tsk.tr/10_ARSIV/10_1_Basin_Yayin_Faaliyetleri/10_1_6_Toplantilar/yas_agustos2004/buyukanit.jpg
http://arsiv.sabah.com.tr/2005/04/19/im//BFFC4ECDB8EA4F47A31A044Ab.jpg

right
http://www.tekirdag.gov.tr/haberresim/kom.jpg
http://www.haberciniz.biz/images/other/albay-ali-oz-bursa-adliyesine-geldi-01.jpg
http://www.dzkk.tsk.tr/Turkce/FAALIYETLER/DUYURULAR/DHOKURULUSYD271106/d%20%28209%29.jpg

http://resim.samanyoluhaber.com/resim/hayri.jpg

http://www.gasteci.com/foto/lersoz.JPG

http://www.kayserigundem.com/haberresim/shd04.jpg


http://www.haberyenigun.com/resimler%5Chaber%5Cuvalc.jpg

http://www.hvkk.tsk.tr/App_Themes/HvkkTheme1/Image/HaberImages/buyukImage/havateknik_01.jpg

http://www.sgk.tsk.tr/baskanliklar/genel_sekreterlik/komutanlarimiz/atilla_kezek/atilla_kezek.JPG

Of higher officers I'll maybe estimate when I get more time number of European, border case, and non european looking.

Thanks Sar. But it looks like that islamists are slowly gaining ground in Turkey aligning it to neo-ottoman islamic policies. Substituting nationalistic policies with islamistic one. One more good article about Turkey.


http://serbianna.com/analysis/?p=448

[Saruman]

Thanks Sar. But it looks like that islamists are slowly gaining ground in Turkey aligning it to neo-ottoman islamic policies. Substituting nationalistic policies with islamistic one. One more good article about Turkey.


http://serbianna.com/analysis/?p=448


Indeed, since Erdogan came that is trend, tough it will be interesting to see how it develops, that might not be in interest of "some powerful forces in the world:D" to put it that way. From perspective of that state allowing the hordes of generally numerous people to take over would cause probably the degradation of that state.

[Pallantides]

There is a Turkish guy on Anthrocivitas who look like the Scanian politican Jimmie Åkesson
http://www.sydsvenskan-img.se/archive/00291/sd1_291798a.jpg

[HungAryan]

Turks are a mongrel race.
They are a mix between Central Asian (Mongoloid), Middle Eastern (predominantly Caucasoid, with some Negroid admixture) and Eastern European (White Caucasian, predominantly Dinaric and Mediterranean).
The story is like this: Turks originally came from North Asia (possibly Siberia). They were fully Mongoloid, looked like Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Mongolian people.
Then, when they migrated to Central Asia, they mixed with the Indo-European peoples (such as the Scythians) there, and ended up completely assimilating them. They got the first drop of Caucasoid admixture.
Then, after adopting Islam, they migrated further to the South, to Iran. They mixed with Persians, and travelled West. Then, they were employed by the Arabs as mercenaries - sometimes even as slaves. The Turks mixed with the Arabs. Now, even though Arabs are predominantly Caucasoid, they had already had Negroid admixture "thanks" to African slaves.
If the Turks mixed with Arabs, it was very unlikely that they mixed with the upper-class, White-skinned, pure-bred Arabs, but rather with the lower-class, part-Negro, Brown Arabs. And yes, there is evidence that the Turks DID mix with Arabs!

Then they rode further West, and North. They encountered the Armenians. They were the first gene-poll. Many Armenians were assimilated: Islamized and Turkified.
Then, they finally arrived into Anatolia. The vast majority of modern-day Turkish people are a mix between the "Turkic" (heavily mixed with Persians and part-negro Arabs) and the pre-Turkic (Greek, Armenian) Anatolians, with some minorities being pure-Turk or pure-Anatolian (sometimes they even have blond hair and blue eyes).

So, Turkish people from Turkey are basically a rainbow race.
Although it's pretty interesting how did a small number of Turkic warriors manage to impose their language on a much larger number of racially alien people.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Hello,

Inspired by this thread (http://************/42d7zd) I would like to create a thread about the genetic and cultural assimilation of people from Turkey into European lands and gene-pools.

I am starting a thread about this, but it does not follow that I am a proponent of multiracial relationships or believe that Turks are necessarily European.

This is about addressing an issue that I do not believe has been addressed before. Obviously it is something that can very easily degenerate into a flame-war. Thus I would appreciate it is people posted sources, asked reasonable questions and left counter-productive statements and opinions to themselves.

If anyone has found any studies on the genetic make-up of the average Turk, or inhabitant of Turkey, it would be grand if you could post them.

There seems to be a lot of ambiguity surrounding what constitutes a "Turk". For example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Turkey#Turkic).



Regards,
Equinox

Easy answer. A Turk is a Mongol, Persian, Kurdish, Arabian, Slavic, Greek, Armenian, Roman colonists, Anatolian, Georgian, Albanian, some Egyptian all put together. A big mutthole, modern-day Turkey is.

Edit. I forgot gypsies. They also brought gypsies with them from Persia, India and mixed with them on their way to Europa.