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JQP4545
04-22-2014, 05:48 PM
Usually people associate the spread of agriculture with haplogroups E, J, and G. Could I2a also be associated with Neolithic migrations from Eastern Turkey?

http://www.eurasianet.org/node/32792

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2010/01/19/sowing-their-seeds-neolithic-farmers-spawned-most-european-males/

The second one discusses R1b, but if agriculture originated in the area of Kurdistan it should be associated with I2a.

46464

JQP4545
04-22-2014, 06:21 PM
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-17857641


They compared the genetic profiles of the stone age (Neolithic) farmer and contemporary hunter gatherers with those of modern populations.

Although the female farmer appears to have been born in the region, her genetic make-up was most similar to that of modern people from south-east Europe.

Prisoner Of Ice
04-22-2014, 06:40 PM
I2a is found in megalithic farmer sites and also in hunter gatherers. Nothing but I2a has been found on these sites (earliest farming sites in europe).

So I think that these are indigenous european farmers.

There was no initial land spread of farming to europe, regardless. First farming came to most sites from the sea.

Since earliest farming site in world is in croatia, and this maps up with spread of I2a, I think this is simply how farming spead.

There's no valid reason except political fantasy to think E or J or J2 spread with neolithic farming. No ancient J or J2 has been found, and the e1b found is a small minority and not of the "right" type - ie it's not the type all in the balkans today.

JQP4545
04-22-2014, 06:52 PM
I2a is found in megalithic farmer sites and also in hunter gatherers. Nothing but I2a has been found on these sites (earliest farming sites in europe).

So I think that these are indigenous european farmers.

There was no initial land spread of farming to europe, regardless. First farming came to most sites from the sea.

Since earliest farming site in world is in croatia, and this maps up with spread of I2a, I think this is simply how farming spead.

There's no valid reason except political fantasy to think E or J or J2 spread with neolithic farming. No ancient J or J2 has been found, and the e1b found is a small minority and not of the "right" type - ie it's not the type all in the balkans today.

So I2a did not come from the Middle East, but it could still be associated, with the spread of agriculture. Would that be correct?

Black Wolf
04-22-2014, 07:04 PM
I2a is found in megalithic farmer sites and also in hunter gatherers. Nothing but I2a has been found on these sites (earliest farming sites in europe).

So I think that these are indigenous european farmers.

There was no initial land spread of farming to europe, regardless. First farming came to most sites from the sea.

Since earliest farming site in world is in croatia, and this maps up with spread of I2a, I think this is simply how farming spead.

There's no valid reason except political fantasy to think E or J or J2 spread with neolithic farming. No ancient J or J2 has been found, and the e1b found is a small minority and not of the "right" type - ie it's not the type all in the balkans today.

I am really looking forward to seeing some Y-DNA haplogroup J2 show up in some ancient sites. It's absence among the Neolithic farmers tested so far from Europe is unexpected and interesting actually.

Prisoner Of Ice
04-22-2014, 07:50 PM
So I2a did not come from the Middle East, but it could still be associated, with the spread of agriculture. Would that be correct?

It IS associated with megalthic agriculture. All the DNA for those sites is i2a.

The parent IJ probably originates in balkan gravetian, as well. No one thinks that I comes from middle east and there's no reason to think this.

Prisoner Of Ice
04-22-2014, 07:52 PM
I am really looking forward to seeing some Y-DNA haplogroup J2 show up in some ancient sites. It's absence among the Neolithic farmers tested so far from Europe is unexpected and interesting actually.

Circassians and some other similar tribes have J2. It's pretty clear it's not a farming clade any more than E is a farming clade. The only reason it's been proposed is because a lot of greeks are J2. It's obviously invasive however, because that's about as far west as it goes...

Graham
04-22-2014, 08:02 PM
Mtdna K is one that spread with the Farming expansion into Europe.

Black Wolf
04-22-2014, 08:06 PM
Circassians and some other similar tribes have J2. It's pretty clear it's not a farming clade any more than E is a farming clade. The only reason it's been proposed is because a lot of greeks are J2. It's obviously invasive however, because that's about as far west as it goes...

Yes J2 and it particular the J2a clade is very prevalent in the Caucasus. The Ingush and Chechens have the highest frequencies of J2a ever reported. I think J2a may have been present among some of the earliest Neolithic farming peoples of the Near East but it is still strange that it has not been found among Neolithic European remains.

Prisoner Of Ice
04-22-2014, 08:17 PM
Yes J2 and it particular the J2a clade is very prevalent in the Caucasus. The Ingush and Chechens have the highest frequencies of J2a ever reported. I think J2a may have been present among some of the earliest Neolithic farming peoples of the Near East but it is still strange that it has not been found among Neolithic European remains.

I don't think J2 came to greece until ottoman times. Ottomans took in 600k georgian mountain people and circassians and mountain jews who were fighting the russian empire. In fact the atrocities that let to greek revolution were committed by circassian muslims who the ottomans used as their strongmen against the rebelious areas.

JQP4545
04-22-2014, 08:26 PM
It IS associated with megalthic agriculture. All the DNA for those sites is i2a.

The parent IJ probably originates in balkan gravetian, as well. No one thinks that I comes from middle east and there's no reason to think this.

So Disles went to the British Isles during the spread of agriculture while Dinaric remained in the Balkans?

Prisoner Of Ice
04-22-2014, 08:58 PM
So Disles went to the British Isles during the spread of agriculture while Dinaric remained in the Balkans?

Dinarics spread out over most of europe, they are just strongest in balkans today. What is Disles?

JQP4545
04-22-2014, 09:11 PM
Dinarics spread out over most of europe, they are just strongest in balkans today. What is Disles?

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2010-08/1282243441

kuqezi
04-23-2014, 02:48 AM
I don't think J2 came to greece until ottoman times. Ottomans took in 600k georgian mountain people and circassians and mountain jews who were fighting the russian empire. In fact the atrocities that let to greek revolution were committed by circassian muslims who the ottomans used as their strongmen against the rebelious areas.

Circassians were not assimilated into Greeks and rape can't account for all it it. I think its clearly a case of coming with the Pontians that came in the population exchange with Turkey. Pontic Greeks in their culture are are very Caucasian as can be seen in their folk costumes, dances, etc. They are Hellenized native northern Anatolians close to the Caucasus not real Greeks and were all uprooted by the millions and sent to Greece. I'm ready to accept that I am wrong though if it can be shown that the J marker Greek samples are non-Pontian mainland or island Greeks and the Pontians are largely something else.

Stefan_Dusan
04-23-2014, 03:07 AM
On my 23andMe, I currently found these paternal haplogroups among Balkan members (variants of J): J1e, J2, J2b1, J2b2*, J2a1b*.

It's hard to notice a pattern for them, but occurs in Macedonians, Bulgarians, and Greeks a lot, sometimes Serbs, Bosnians (though he is genetically Albanian).

With variants of I, I have:

I1, I1*, I2, I2b1, I2b1*, I2a2, I2a2b,

With R1b, I have:

R1b1b2*, R1b1b2a, R1b1b2a1a, R1b1b2a1a2d3

With R1a I have

R1a1a, R1a1a*

With G I have

G2, G2a, G2a5

So that leaves the oddball, E1b1b1a2* (EV-13). There is simply no diversity to this haplogroup in the Balkan whatsoever. Everyone (and there have been quite a few so far) belong to that specific clade. I want to conclude that it's the most recent comer into the Balkans and maybe Europe as a result. However a lot could be hidden by the *, so maybe as it's studied the * will give way to many different sister clades. But still…..

Prisoner Of Ice
04-23-2014, 03:40 AM
Yeah that's good easoning, and with that and other reasons I don't see how that can be Greek in origin. Also it's higher in albanians than greeks so it falls on its face from both sides.

Kale
04-24-2014, 03:35 AM
Regarding haplogroup E.

There was a sample of E-V13 in Spain dating to 5000BC.