R1a - news, charts, trees, maps, scientific papers, questions, answers [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Artek

04-24-2014, 06:39 PM

Where the most common R1a-Z280?
Among Balts and Slavs and more in the Eastern and Southern Slavs than in the Western Slavs. It's probably a result of an R1a-M458 founder-effect among Western Slavs.

What is history and origin this haplogroup? Which meta-ethnic/language family relationship?
Z280 is aged circa 3000 BC(probably even more) so it's a good candidate for one of the branches among Corded Ware people,especially for it's Central, Eastern and Northeastern European zone( Middle Dnieper Culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Dnieper_culture , Fatyanovo-Balanovo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatyanovo-Balanovo_culture ). However, we can also notice some interesting early Z280 branches that exist mostly in Western-Central Europe.
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/th_5-z280g960_zpse97a845b.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/5-z280g960_zpse97a845b.jpg.html)
It allows me to guess that some Corded-like people of Z280 veriety were picked by Bell Beakers or proto-Italo-Celts/other kentum speakers and took part in their etnogenesis.
As an example - two R1a's found in Liechtenstein Cave in Germany were never deeply examined but it is likely that they belong to an early, distinct branches of Z280 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urnfield_culture ). Another possible hit when such admix could've taken place is an Unetice Culture(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture) and a Tumulus Culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus_culture ) of a Bronze Age Europe.

Rest of the early Z280's eventually stayed and slowly evolved into CTS1211, Z92 and YP345.As of the end of a Bronze Age and with start of the Iron Age, when we still can't talk about Slavs or Balts - those lineages could've made up a Pomeranian culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture ) and a Lusatian Culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture ), West-Baltic culture of cairns and Milogrady culture.
The last is the best point leading us to proper Slavs and their later expansion of CTS3402 and derived lineages.

YP345:
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/th_6a1_zps7cbd15a6.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/6a1_zps7cbd15a6.jpg.html)
CTS1211:
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/th_6a24_zps0fc362f4.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/6a24_zps0fc362f4.jpg.html)
Z92:
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/th_7A-Z92_zps3d66608f.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/7A-Z92_zps3d66608f.jpg.html)
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/th_typ-e_zps32654115.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/typ-e_zps32654115.jpg.html)

CTS3402 as a result of later expansion or re-expansion is to big and diverse to show it on a single map. I will post some other maps later.

Cern

04-24-2014, 07:52 PM

Artek

04-24-2014, 08:10 PM

Argang

04-24-2014, 08:20 PM

Artek

04-24-2014, 08:39 PM

I think N1c1-L1034, which is present in small numbers in Hungary and Urals but absent in the circum-Baltic area and Northern/Northwestern Russia, might be a better clue for early movements of Hungarian language than Z93-clades.
That's true, especially when Hungarian Y-DNA aDNA scrubbed so far is an N1c. Still, there aren't many of them among present-day people.
So there are two possibilites - they were never numerous or even of secondary significance but by elite dominance they imposed a language or
they made up much more population before than they make now due to the various historical events (mongol invasion, then resettling with Germanic or Slavic populations, etc. etc.).

blogen

04-24-2014, 08:46 PM

Among Balts and Slavs and more in the Eastern and Southern Slavs than in the Western Slavs. It's probably a result of an R1a-M458 founder-effect among Western Slavs.
Z280 is aged circa 3000 BC(probably even more)

Sorry, but this is a basically pre Indo-European marker, the Corder Ware culture is minimum three, but presumably four or five times younger than the Z280:

"The TMRCA of all R1a1-Z280 haplotypes yielded 10,283 +/- 2,574 years (95% CI, 7,709–12,857 years)"

source: Horolma Pamjav, Tibor Fehér Endre Németh and Zsolt Pádár: Brief Communication: New Y-Chromosome Binary Markers Improve Phylogenetic Resolution Within Haplogroup R1a1 - American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 2012 (https://www.familytreedna.com/PDF/New_Y_Chromosome_Binary_Markers_Improve_Phylogenet ic_Resolution_Within_Haplogroup_R1a1.pdf)

blogen

04-24-2014, 08:51 PM

The other dates:

pre-Indoeuropeans:
R1a1-Z280: 10,283 +/- 2,574 years (95% CI, 7,709–12,857 years)
R1a1-Z93: 10,272 +/- 2,187 years (95% CI, 8,085–12,459 years)

presumably connected to the Indoeuropeans:
R1a1-M458: 7,306 +/- 2,321 years (95% CI, 4,985–9,627 years)

Proto-Shaman

04-24-2014, 08:51 PM

Artek, what's your opinion hungarian R1a subclades? Possible Ugric/central-asian origin or excluded? What is the statistical probability? Sorry if too difficult issues! :)

Hungarian= Hungarian+Szekler+Csango

http://www.arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAProject/PhylogeneticResolution-HG-R1a1.pdf
R1a1a1b1a1 (M458+): the West Slavic subgroup of R1a-M417, can be considered Polish or Slovak in the Carpathian Basin. Has two large subgroups, L260 and L1029, both are present in Hungary. It has appeared around 5000-6000 BC in Eastern Europe.

R1a1a1b1a2 (Z280+): the North-East European subclade of R1a-M417, approximately 10-11 thousand years old. It is common from the Baltic to the Urals as well as the Carpathian Basin. The majority of the Steppe Magyars likely belonged to this group, as the“Carpathian B type” typically appears in Russia and the Carpathian Basin. The “Carpathian D type” is typical for Slovenes and Hungarians.

R1a1a1b2 (Z93+): the Asian subgroup of R1a-M417, approximately 10-14 thousand years old. It is common among Altaian Turks, Kyrghyz, Ashkenazi Jews, Indians and Eastern Iranians. In the Carpathian basin, it can be considered as Turkic admixture.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Hungarian_Magyar_Y-DNA_Project/default.aspx?section=results

Concerning possible Ugric and Scytho-Sarmatian admixures: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yurmat#Ethnic_History

Artek

04-24-2014, 08:55 PM

Sorry, but this is a basically pre Indo-European marker, the Corder Ware culture is minimum three, but presumably four or five times younger than the Z280:

"The TMRCA of all R1a1-Z280 haplotypes yielded 10,283 +/- 2,574 years (95% CI, 7,709–12,857 years)"

source: Horolma Pamjav, Tibor Fehér Endre Németh and Zsolt Pádár: Brief Communication: New Y-Chromosome Binary Markers Improve Phylogenetic Resolution Within Haplogroup R1a1 - American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 2012 (https://www.familytreedna.com/PDF/New_Y_Chromosome_Binary_Markers_Improve_Phylogenet ic_Resolution_Within_Haplogroup_R1a1.pdf)
They used a wrong and obsolete method of Zhivotovsky, now the calibrated mutation rate after Francalacci's thesis is about ~0.7x10^-9 mutation/year and it makes much sense given even scarce aDNA data we have.

Artek

04-25-2014, 02:42 PM

FTDNA has implemented new haplotree
R1a section looks like that - nothing special but that's a progress anyway:
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/th_Y-DNAHaplotree_zpse68cd48c.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/Y-DNAHaplotree_zpse68cd48c.jpg.html)

blogen

04-25-2014, 03:13 PM

They used a wrong and obsolete method of Zhivotovsky, now the calibrated mutation rate after Francalacci's thesis is about ~0.7x10^-9 mutation/year and it makes much sense given even scarce aDNA data we have.

Francalacci's paper is very new.

Artek

04-29-2014, 10:16 AM

NEW SNPs ready to order In FTDNA!!!

Group M458
Y2905 – subclade of L260 (probably A1 cluster)
YP263 – subclade of L1029, (parent of FG1234)
FG1234 – subclade of YP263

Group Z280*
S24902 – Western subclade of Z280, brother clade of CTS1211 and Z92 (5.B + 5.C cathegories)

Group Z280/CTS1211*
YP340 – subclade of CTS1211, parent of P278.2 (Old Carpathian / 6.A1A+6.A1B cathegory)

Group Z280/CTS3402/YP237
YP295 – subclade of YP234, (B2F + B2H + ? cathegory)
YP335 – subclade of YP295, (B2F cathegory)

Group Z280/CTS3402/Y33/CTS8816
Y2902 – subclade of Y1392, parent of Y2910 (B1 Cathegory / Volga-Carpathian)
Y2910 – parent of YP310 (B1A1 cathegory / Volga-Carpathian)
YP310 – subclade of Y2910 (B1A1 subclade / Volga-Carpathian)
YP331 – subclade of CTS8816 (B2I cathegory / I Type)

Group Z280/Z92
Y1401 – subclade of Z92, equivalent to YP270 (East Baltic / 7.A cathegory)

Group Z93/Z2124/Z2123
Y2632 - subclade of Z2123 (Brother clade of Y47, Y934 and Y937)

Fakirbakir

05-02-2014, 08:40 AM

Those few Z93 cases can be Ugric (or Scytho-Sarmatian, so inconclusive - we need aDNA). Z280 and M458 in Rroma is obviously from outside.
I've additionally helped myself with Semargl's database - out of nearly 300 samples (among which about 70 are R1a) only one belongs to Z93-L342 clade. Of course there are still undertested sub-regions in Hungary but overall paternal Hunnic ancestry seems to be stikingly low.

It is more complicated than you assume.

You can not exclude subclades of R1a-z280 because we simply do not have data enough to determine the "proto-Hungarian genetic makeup". We need more samples (recent and ancient) from Eastern Europe and Western Asia. Luckily, Balazs Gusztav Mende (archaeogenetics expert of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences) has already started to collect samples from Eastern European graves.

It seems that Corded Ware and/or Yamna cultures played an important role in the early Hungarian ethnogenesis (IMO). Unfortunately, we do not know the exact location of the Hungarian Urheimat (homeland) . The three possibilities are 1, western side of the Ural Mountains (region of Samara and Perm) 2, eastern side of the Ural mountains (medieval Yugra) 3, The Eurasian steppe southward from Ural (Aral, Caspian Sea, Baikal). We also know that proto-Magyars were mostly Andronoid folks. If you know Hungarian researches you will see that the vast majority of the 10th century samples were composed of "European" haplogroups (the samples of the "elite bones" too).

http://kepfeltoltes.hu/view/140329/rasko04_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg

(1, 10th century--all samples together-- 2, samples of cemetery of Harta 3, the samples of the richer graves ---"presumably conqueror warriors"--- 4, poorer graves 5, present day Hungarian samples 6, present day Szekler samples.)

Also, there is a "new" (actually one hundred years old) theory based on recent genetic researches that the subjugated pre-conquest population in the Carpathian Basin was the "real" Hungarians.

http://ahea.net/e-journal/volume-6-2013/6?&request=modules/journals/journalarticleattachments&download=240&ajax=1

Artek

05-04-2014, 10:03 AM

It is more complicated than you assume.

You can not exclude subclades of R1a-z280 because we simply do not have data enough to determine the "proto-Hungarian genetic makeup". We need more samples (recent and ancient) from Eastern Europe and Western Asia. Luckily, Balazs Gusztav Mende (archaeogenetics expert of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences) has already started to collect samples from Eastern European graves.

Well, it's even more complicated than a thesis. MtDNA in that resolution doesn't say much, we need sequenced mtDNA from graves and SNP-tested Y-DNA. But you're right that there were influences from nearby cultures.

New haplotree from a project.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/th_haplotree_zps6f2a4fea.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/haplotree_zps6f2a4fea.jpg.html)

New draft haplotree of an R1a-Z284 branch

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/th_10259127_10203610237600313_4861893103557704577_ o_zps77f1b7ca.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/10259127_10203610237600313_4861893103557704577_o_z ps77f1b7ca.jpg.html)

Artek

05-15-2014, 07:03 PM

xajapa

05-17-2014, 01:02 AM

Also from the R1a Project at FTDNA:

47268

xajapa

05-17-2014, 01:07 AM

Artek

05-17-2014, 09:09 AM

Hey Artek. Where did you get this updated chart?
It's on the facebook group. Group on FTDNA is updated in slower pace and I don't know why - uploading a new chart should be a matter of few minutes.

i believe hittites are r1a too but i am not sure
Or R1b. Or both. I can't speculate, really, with such scarcity of data.

xajapa

05-20-2014, 11:16 AM

FYI: for those who are R1a, M-458, CTS11962 (mostly L1029), FTDNA is now offering the sale of single SNPs at $39: YP263, FG1234 and FG1227. These SNPs flow in this order, L1029 to YP263 to FG1234 to FG1227, so you may wish to start with the first, then continue if you test positive. It seems as if those who are positive for these SNPs, to date, are primarily of Central European ancestry.

Artek

05-22-2014, 06:43 PM

New SNP results have come yesterday, regarding my location under Z280. I turned out positive to Y2902 and I'm negative to Y2910.

So, that's my location on a simplified draft of Z280.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/MylocationonZ280_zpsa7cc1e22.jpg

Proto-Shaman

05-22-2014, 06:45 PM

SabirHunOgur

05-22-2014, 06:55 PM

Kurgan Andronovo Afanasevo Ordos Hun Sarmatian Wusun Saka aaaanddd Me :D

Artek

05-22-2014, 06:56 PM

As far as I know, this is the special proto-Turkic marker, isn't it?
It looks like a central and eastern european Corded Ware-derived marker, present mostly in Balto-Slavs (though some specific subbranches are present almost everywhere, like S24902 or some under CTS1211).
Probably one of the markers among people from Pomeranian and Lusatian cultures(though we need aDNA research to prove it)

SabirHunOgur

05-22-2014, 09:17 PM

It looks like a central and eastern european Corded Ware-derived marker, present mostly in Balto-Slavs (though some specific subbranches are present almost everywhere, like S24902 or some under CTS1211).
Probably one of the markers among people from Pomeranian and Lusatian cultures(though we need aDNA research to prove it)

Slav is the hurt name of those hungarians who lost the independente after Hun Realm in europe. latin word sclavus, german windisch (vend) all means slave...After Magyar dominance in Europe all "slavs" get back the real names like Bulgar (huns), Hereuvat or Khwarezmian , means croatian, Serboi (Sarmatians) Leh (you), Russians from Ru-rikid Atilla clan. Slavs= hungarians or Scythosarmato-huns. R1a1 is kurgan marker.

Proto-Shaman

05-22-2014, 10:16 PM

R1a1 is kurgan marker.
If it is that way, then what is R1b? It look like they intermarried in the northern Pontic steppes.

DerekMorlock

05-29-2014, 10:08 PM

turanid marker
RQ too

xajapa

06-11-2014, 11:50 AM

Project tree updated again to show some of the newly found SNPs:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/.

By the way, some of these SNPs are now available for testing, at both FTDNA and at http://www.yseq.net/.

Proto-Shaman

06-11-2014, 11:58 AM

why don't they achieve any new insights about L342 and L657? is there anything blocking this process?

xajapa

06-11-2014, 12:06 PM

why don't they achieve any new insights about L342 and L657? is there anything blocking this process?

It appears there has been. FTDNA offered its Big Y test a few months ago and much of the new SNPs have come as a result of this. Wherever you see the SNPs listed in red (as opposed to black), these are new SNPs.

Artek

06-11-2014, 12:32 PM

why don't they achieve any new insights about L342 and L657? is there anything blocking this process?
By "they" you mean who? People from the project do what they can. There are many SNP's to test, either way -just find those likely to be positive and order them through advanced menu.

If you mean a purely scientific insight - I can assure you that other branches are neglected as well.

And what's even more important - R1a-Z93 is pretty much overrepresented among aDNA found so far. For Europe we have only 2 possible CTS4385+ L664- results from Eulau and possible early Z280 from Liechtestein Cave. That's not what I find very just.

xajapa

06-11-2014, 04:20 PM

By "they" you mean who? People from the project do what they can. There are many SNP's to test, either way -just find those likely to be positive and order them through advanced menu.

If you mean a purely scientific insight - I can assure you that other branches are neglected as well.

And what's even more important - R1a-Z93 is pretty much overrepresented among aDNA found so far. For Europe we have only 2 possible CTS4385+ L664- results from Eulau and possible early Z280 from Liechtestein Cave. That's not what I find very just.

Right on Artek. Most of the interest in R1a dna comes from Poland and Russia. In the USA and Canada the majority of men who have tested are R1b, thus their interest - like western Europe - lies there. I would like to see men from eastern Germany test, but I have heard that dna testing is frowned upon in Germany. Still, new sub-groupings or branches are being found on a regular basis lately, thanks to (relatively) affordable deep y-dna tests.

Dellingr

06-11-2014, 05:28 PM

Does anyone have any information on R1a-Z280? It appears to be the Balto-Slavic subclade of R1a-Z282 (R1a1a1b1a). Any info would be appreciated :)

Artek

06-11-2014, 06:07 PM

Does anyone have any information on R1a-Z280? It appears to be the Balto-Slavic subclade of R1a-Z282 (R1a1a1b1a). Any info would be appreciated :)
My post in this thread: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?123285-R1a-news-charts-trees-maps-scientific-papers-questions-answers&p=2589555&viewfull=1#post2589555

Dellingr

06-11-2014, 06:08 PM

My post in this thread: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?123285-R1a-news-charts-trees-maps-scientific-papers-questions-answers&p=2589555&viewfull=1#post2589555

Thanks man.

Artek

06-11-2014, 06:13 PM

Thanks man.
Have you joined R1a project at FTDNA? What's your subbranch?

Dellingr

06-11-2014, 06:16 PM

Have you joined R1a project at FTDNA?

No, should I?

What's your subbranch?

Tested positive with CTS3402+; I don't know much about that.

Artek

06-11-2014, 06:21 PM

No, should I?
Yep! http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/

Tested positive with CTS3402+; I don't know much about that.
I wonder how deep our y-chromosomal relation goes. I'm CTS3402+ as well, that's my road:
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/MylocationonZ280_zpsa7cc1e22.jpg

xajapa

06-11-2014, 11:41 PM

No, should I?

Tested positive with CTS3402+; I don't know much about that.
It is always good to join the R1a1a and Subclades Y-DNA Project. They administrators there can actually offer further analysis on you results by comparing it to others. They also are available for advice, very friendly and helpful.

Artek

06-12-2014, 07:27 AM

It is always good to join the R1a1a and Subclades Y-DNA Project. They administrators there can actually offer further analysis on you results by comparing it to others. They also are available for advice, very friendly and helpful.
I second that. They really helped to avoid any unnecessary costs.

Dellingr, don't forget to write in which subbranch you were placed(or you are likely to be in).

xajapa

06-12-2014, 02:25 PM

The administrator of the Polish Project at FTDNA sent an email to its members informing them that the BigY dna test is on sale. While costly, he pointed out some of the benefits that have resulted from this test, which was just introduced about 6 months ago. For R1a, these are his words regarding the recent findings from the BigY test:
" The resulting progress in haplotree extension has been:
Truly amazing in large, clearly structured haplogroups like R1a1a1 that enjoyed many Big Y orders and intense organized professional analysis..."

It is because of the BigY tests that there are now numerous SNPs available for a reasonable price ($39).

I enjoy this study because it can relate to history, anthropology, culture and even archaeology. The development of the haplotree for R1a is leading to subclades or subgroupings which appear to mirror the various tribes that were moving during the Migration Period. Again, from the Project administrator:
"But even Big Y results that do not extend the haplotree still act as a measurement of Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor, by counting SNPs. This is important for ancestry and anthropology, even if the time frame is too distant for recorded genealogy."
To me, this is all very interesting.

Stanislav

07-17-2014, 03:45 PM

Project haplotree grows:
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/10333527_10203723355188182_2147451024331850490_o_z psa7e5e807.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/10333527_10203723355188182_2147451024331850490_o_z psa7e5e807.jpg.html)

Notice new "Western European" S224902 branch of Z280 which is paralell to CTS1211.

I am are YP335. I was are very surprised, cos my grandfa is russian, but from Kazan region. My nearest neighbor by haplotipe - is Paewsky from Weliko Paewo in Poland. What the reason of this brotherhood? By calculator tree our common father from 8 century. What is the paternal culture?

Artek

07-17-2014, 07:07 PM

I am are YP335. I was are very surprised, cos my grandfa is russian, but from Kazan region. My nearest neighbor by haplotipe - is Paewsky from Weliko Paewo in Poland. What the reason of this brotherhood? By calculator tree our common father from 8 century. What is the paternal culture?
To which cluster in R1a1a1 and subclades project do you belong? B*? Pajewski is in A1 but I can't see any Russian placed with him.

Demhat

07-17-2014, 07:34 PM

I still don't know to which subclade I belong. z93, z383, m458, l62, m420 and quite some more branches were found among my ethnicity. Actually R1a* is most diverse around this part of Western Asia. I personally know a Kurdish individual who is z93, one who is z383 and one who is l62.

Branches found in Western Asia as a whole
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ua7ZyaGax7E/UzmBytAVaHI/AAAAAAAACEI/zZnbCE94eLc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png

The most common types however seem to be these.
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/1O-R1a.jpghttp://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/nowe%20mapy/3a-b_zps900443f5.jpghttp://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/nowe%20mapy/9A_zpsb53027c0.jpg

This one seems strong with Persians, South and Central Asians and some North Caucasians
http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/ft-d/nowe%20mapy/z2124_zpse6db1de0.jpg

Stanislav

07-18-2014, 12:29 PM

To which cluster in R1a1a1 and subclades project do you belong? B*? Pajewski is in A1 but I can't see any Russian placed with him.

I m belong to same prodject with him, R1a1a and Subclades. My kit number is 297394 and my cluster is YP335 - B*. From FTDNA Pajewski is jast my nearest neighbor on 37 markers, with Genetic Distance - 4.

Artek

07-18-2014, 09:16 PM

Branches found in Western Asia as a whole
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ua7ZyaGax7E/UzmBytAVaHI/AAAAAAAACEI/zZnbCE94eLc/s1600/Haplogroup+R1a+MiddleEast.png]

Chart seems to be based on Underhill's data, because some of the SNP designations are not used anywhere else. What the heck is an M780 or M560 :D

I m belong to same prodject with him, R1a1a and Subclades. My kit number is 297394 and my cluster is YP335 - B*. From FTDNA Pajewski is jast my nearest neighbor on 37 markers, with Genetic Distance - 4.

I've now found you.

Well, referring to your previous question, YP335 seems to be too spread to make any reasonable statement about your possible roots. I can see an Italian, Erzya, Greek and Poles, even a less related wholly Tatar subcluster !

Demhat

07-18-2014, 10:40 PM

Chart seems to be based on Underhill's data, because some of the SNP designations are not used anywhere else. What the heck is an M780 or M560 :D

Yep it's Underhill et al 2014. Must be knew mutation not known until yet.

Stanislav

07-20-2014, 05:58 AM

Chart seems to be based on Underhill's data, because some of the SNP designations are not used anywhere else. What the heck is an M780 or M560 :D

Well, referring to your previous question, YP335 seems to be too spread to make any reasonable statement about your possible roots. I can see an Italian, Erzya, Greek and Poles, even a less related wholly Tatar subcluster !

I think Tatar subcluster is from Imenkovo arheologic culture, sorry I faund only russian version of page in Wiki
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C8%EC%E5%ED%FC%EA%EE%E2%F1%EA%E0%FF_%EA%F3%EB%FC% F2%F3%F0%E0

This culture is from Zarubintsy culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture)

Proto-Shaman

07-21-2014, 07:40 AM

I think Tatar subcluster is from Imenkovo arheologic culture, sorry I faund only russian version of page in Wiki
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C8%EC%E5%ED%FC%EA%EE%E2%F1%EA%E0%FF_%EA%F3%EB%FC% F2%F3%F0%E0

This culture is from Zarubintsy culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture)
Are these arheological cultures considered Finno-Ugric, Slavic or Turkic?

Stanislav

07-21-2014, 01:44 PM

Are these arheological cultures considered Finno-Ugric, Slavic or Turkic?

No. Zarubintsy culture is mix between Thracian-Celtic and Sarmatian. Slavic-Baltic is mix between Zarubintsy culture and Wielbark culture (germanic). Imenkovo culture is eastern line of Zarubintsy culture. So, no Finno-Ugric or Turkic, only proto Slavic-Baltic.

Artek

07-21-2014, 01:51 PM

Are these arheological cultures considered Finno-Ugric, Slavic or Turkic?

Zarubintsy is probably proto-Slavic.

R1a-M458 branching with calculations - fits in what is called a "Slavic migrations" (unlike Z280). Notice the very long bottlekneck.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/th_10531384_10204231775538373_5870423264618357599_ o_zps27c000f4.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/10531384_10204231775538373_5870423264618357599_o_z ps27c000f4.jpg.html)

R1a-M458 branching basing on FTDNA's BigY results

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/th_10454134_246291398901785_4155787827119766608_o_ zps817ce996.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/10454134_246291398901785_4155787827119766608_o_zps 817ce996.jpg.html)

R1a -Y2395 (former Z284) branching based on BigY results.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/th_10295910_10203999758458091_6748533441632419065_ o_zps3450cb35.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/10295910_10203999758458091_6748533441632419065_o_z ps3450cb35.jpg.html)

R1a CTS 4385 (former L664) branching

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/th_10386980_10204137305336677_5590896909614153545_ o_zps373301bb.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/10386980_10204137305336677_5590896909614153545_o_z ps373301bb.jpg.html)

Classification system of an R1a1 project

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/th_10530541_10204149953852882_3798681249884806563_ o_zpsd7ae5df1.jpg (http://s938.photobucket.com/user/CeltHussar/media/10530541_10204149953852882_3798681249884806563_o_z psd7ae5df1.jpg.html)

Proto-Shaman

09-10-2014, 06:09 PM

New spatial maps by Underhill et al. 2014 (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg201450a.html), in European Journal of Human Genetics , (26 March 2014) | doi:10.1038/ejhg.2014.50.

R1a - Z93 (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg201450f3.html#figure-title): this cluster looks actually extraordinarily non-Indo-European!
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=53906&d=1419891299

R1a - Z282 (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg201450f2.html#figure-title): the Slavic cluster!
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=53905&d=1419891173

Artek

09-10-2014, 10:58 PM

R1a - Z93 (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/fig_tab/ejhg201450f3.html#figure-title): this cluster looks actually extraordinarily non-Indo-European!
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/images/ejhg201450f3.jpg
:bored:

the Slavic cluster!
Yeah, like all of Z282 is slavic :D.Norwegians are also Slavic?

Pennywise

09-10-2014, 11:45 PM

So, which one of you guys winning? who is the superior? Go Turks!

Aviator

09-16-2014, 01:09 AM

Artek

09-16-2014, 12:16 PM

Right, so my Y DNA is R1a1a*. Is there any way to find out what the specific subclade is without paying any more money?

Based on my ancestry, it's most likely the Western Norwegian variant, but I'm still curious.
If you're tested by 23andme, that's impossible to know because the most downstream SNP tested by their crappy chip is M417/PAGES0007 or something alike. They didn't even bother to include popular R1a SNPs in the newer chip(V4). So I bet that many interesting results are just wasted by their policy.
98-99% of an R1a is M417 :D. Anyway, you can PM me you earliest known paternal ancestor data (name surname, where he was exactly born) and I'll try to find something in FTDNA's databases, where there are plenty of R1a Norwegians.

Guapo

09-16-2014, 10:39 PM

Right, so my Y DNA is R1a1a*. Is there any way to find out what the specific subclade is without paying any more money?

Based on my ancestry, it's most likely the Western Norwegian variant, but I'm still curious.

Try searching for snp subclades of R1a on 23andme if you are on there but good luck. By the way, I have a "relative" with the same y-dna and mt-dna as you.

Artek

09-17-2014, 11:55 AM

Try searching for snp subclades of R1a on 23andme if you are on there but good luck. By the way, I have a "relative" with the same y-dna and mt-dna as you.
As I said, it's not possible to search for snp subclades of R1a in 23andMe, because they aren't tested with their Illumina OmniExpress Plus customized chip,even by V4 version.

Proto-Shaman

09-18-2014, 11:58 PM

:bored:
:thumb001:

Yeah, like all of Z282 is slavic :D.Norwegians are also Slavic?
They must be surely Indo-Gayropean, did you forget it? :XFingers: If you ask me Turkic is Kentum.

Stanislav

10-25-2014, 01:06 PM

R1a clades with ethnic pictures

51775

Artek

12-22-2014, 04:07 PM

New Eupedia maps
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-M458.png

R1a-Z280+ CTS1211+
http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a-Y93.png

As you can see, R1a-Z280+ CTS1211+ is more prevalent in East Slavs and Balts, whereas M458 is strongly coorelated with Slavic speakers of Lechitic languages.
Z280+ CTS1211+ is also present in more weird places (Italy, Spain and Southern France), giving a vibe of a haplogroup that could've been brought there by some Eastern Germanic tribes(Goths, for example). It's all up to aDNA research now, though scenario seems to be quite likely after all.

Hevo

12-22-2014, 04:17 PM

Artek

12-22-2014, 04:57 PM

Look at how M458 drops significantly in The Baltic states and that is quite cool. The M458 30%+ in East Germany is because of the Sorbs and/or ethnic East Germans?
Actually,M458 makes 57% among Sorbs themselves(65% of an R1a in total, rest is Z280), whereas among Eastern Germans it's much less dominant when compared to Z280.
I would also guess that Germans from Pomerania and Prussia had more Z280 than M458, that's an impression I got from FTDNA projects.

Proto-Shaman

12-22-2014, 05:36 PM

wow, world newness :bored:

Artek

12-22-2014, 08:48 PM

wow, world newness :bored:
Wow, fuck off moron

Proto-Shaman

12-22-2014, 09:45 PM

Wow, fuck off moron
wow, you are a cool Indi-European guy - is this coolness typical among Indi-Europeans ? ;)

Tanais

12-25-2014, 11:53 AM

So, which one of you guys winning? who is the superior? Go Turks!
I don't think it's a matter of superiority but a matter of Dna-genealogy which is hard in conflict with dogmatic historians and linguistics. I see green for the future.

Stanislav

12-25-2014, 01:54 PM

I would also guess that Germans from Pomerania and Prussia had more Z280 than M458, that's an impression I got from FTDNA projects.

Pomerania -is it kashubian Pomorye?

Peterski

12-26-2014, 02:44 AM

I made some charts based on recent Underhill's publication and posted them on another forum (I post there as Tomenable):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29632-Poland-more-Germanic-or-Slavic/page17

Let's post them also here:

http://s23.postimg.org/hxijdxiq3/R1a_Slowian_3.png

http://s23.postimg.org/p95dqwoor/Chart_R1a.png

http://s4.postimg.org/4ftg39xjh/M558.png

http://s2.postimg.org/y56xlyfex/M458.png

================================================

The same data as text:

http://s14.postimg.org/rlvxzdxkh/R1a_composition.png

Russians of Kostroma seem to be the most "average" Slavic group when it comes to proportions of R1a types.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kostroma

But on the other hand, Ukrainians from Donetsk have the most even proportions (roughly 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3).

A very interesting correlation can be seen (with only a few exceptions):

[WeS] - West Slavs
[EaS] - East Slavs
[SoS] - South Slavs

And this correlation (there are a few exceptions, as you can see below) is as follows:

West Slavs = more of M458
East Slavs = more of Z282
South Slavs = more of M558

Group (Z282 / M458 / M558 / other - as % of total R1a):

[WeS] Czechs----------------------------(10,1 / 79,8 / 10,1 / 0,0)
[WeS] Czechs Utah----------------------(0,0 / 70,0 / 19,9 / 10,1)
[SoS] Croatia mainland-----------------(16,0 / 68,0 / 16,0 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Cherkassy-------------(22,4 / 53,1 / 24,5 / 0,0)
[WeS] Poland----------------------------(4,0 / 58,0 / 38,0 / 0,0)
[WeS] Slovakia--------------------------(4,1 / 46,2 / 48,0 / 1,7)
[SoS] Bulgaria---------------------------(10,8 / 42,0 / 40,4 / 6,8)
[WeS] Poles Wroclaw-------------------(17,6 / 43,2 / 39,2 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Ivano-Frank.----------(8,1 / 40,0 / 51,9 / 0,0)
[EaS] Belarusians Brest-Lit.------------(15,8 / 38,6 / 45,6 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Kostroma---------------(18,9 / 37,4 / 43,7 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Donetsk---------------(30,4 / 30,4 / 37,0 / 2,2)
[EaS] Russians Pskov-------------------(37,1 / 25,8 / 35,5 / 1,6)
[EaS] Belarusians-----------------------(38,4 / 23,2 / 38,4 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Belgorod--------------(49,9 / 11,6 / 38,5 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Khmilnyk--------------(39,4 / 15,7 / 44,9 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Belgorod----------------(25,9 / 18,8 / 55,3 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Oryol--------------------(25,0 / 23,6 / 51,4 / 0,0)
[SoS] Serbia-----------------------------(17,9 / 23,2 / 47,0 / 11,9)
[SoS] Macedonia------------------------(18,0 / 27,3 / 54,7 / 0,0)
[SoS] Bosnia----------------------------(19,8 / 19,8 / 60,4 / 0,0)
[SoS] Slovenia--------------------------(0,0 / 10,7 / 83,9 / 5,4)
[SoS] Herzegovina----------------------(6,2 / 6,2 / 87,6 / 0,0)

Artek

12-26-2014, 12:07 PM

Pomerania -is it kashubian Pomorye?
Kashubian Pomerania is just a part of a whole region of Pomerania. But they (Kashubians) are mostly Z280 as well.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/977035_134653640065562_521144046_o_zpsef632bb3.jpg

Peterski

12-26-2014, 02:50 PM

Just 14% of R1a in Mecklenburg ??? This data shows much higher percentages (check Rostock and Greifswald):

http://s7.postimg.org/7kendb2az/Chart_R1a_R1b.png

http://s7.postimg.org/7kendb2az/Chart_R1a_R1b.png

http://s10.postimg.org/baq1dm6rt/R1a_R1b_cities_B.png

http://s10.postimg.org/baq1dm6rt/R1a_R1b_cities_B.png

http://s29.postimg.org/9w7fjq5on/Polabians_small.png

http://s29.postimg.org/9w7fjq5on/Polabians_small.png

http://s12.postimg.org/atb28q6r1/Chart_Regional_HGs.png

http://s12.postimg.org/atb28q6r1/Chart_Regional_HGs.png

More here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29632-Poland-more-Germanic-or-Slavic?p=443108&viewfull=1#post443108

And also here:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29632-Poland-more-Germanic-or-Slavic?p=443533&viewfull=1#post443533

Peterski

12-26-2014, 03:21 PM

Artek,

The map you posted indicates that 10th century Bavaria was Slav-free, but this is actually wrong.

North-eastern Bavaria was known as Bavaria Slavica and 3 Slavic tribes lived there. Check for example:

Hans Losert, "Moinvinidi, Radanzvinidi und Nabavinida. Geschichte und Archäologie der Slawen in Bayern", 2009.

Those 3 tribes were called (in Latin texts): Radanzvinidi, Moinvinidi and Nabavinida.

That region from your map marked as "8." was also Slavic-inhabited in the Early Middle Ages.

Check also: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?149394-How-much-of-R1a-(what-)-could-there-be-in-West-Germany-before-WW2&p=3225598&viewfull=1#post3225598

Artek

12-26-2014, 03:32 PM

Just 14% of R1a in Mecklenburg ??? This data shows much higher percentages (check Rostock and Greifswald):

As I stated in another thread:

Anyway, sampling for Mecklenburg looks weird, since city of Rostock itself had more than 30% of an R1a and Mecklenburg was for very long time slavic-speaking.

Haven't known about the slavic tribes in Bavaria. Thanks.

Peterski

12-26-2014, 04:20 PM

Haven't known about the slavic tribes in Bavaria. Thanks.

They aren't well-known today because they were Christianized very early on and were among first West Slavic groups which got Germanized. Slavs in Franconia (today north-eastern Bavaria) became part of the Frankish state at some point after 740 and became Christianized by Charlemagne around year 800, when he ordered to construct 14 churches for them. Those Slavic tribes were called Moinwinidi and Radanzwinidi (and also Nabavinida) and they lived along the rivers Main and Regnitz, as Charlemagne's document from 794 reveals:

"(...) in terra Sclavorum, qui sedent inter Moinum et Radentiam fluvios, qui vocantur Moinwinidi et Radanzwinidi."

In English:

"(...) in the land of Slavs, who live between rivers Main and Regnitz, who are called Moinwinidi and Radanzwinidi."

Assimilation of those Slavs in Franconia lasted several centuries. In year 1162 we still have Slavic names among them (for example certain guys Dragan and Gleische from Effelder near Coburg); in 1233 in Herzogtum Meranien we have a certain important guy Konrad Slavir. Slapansgereute (Schlappenreuth) near Bamberg is a settlement founded by Slapan, who was Slavic. His descendants can be traced in sources until the 15th century. According to historian Erwin Herrmann the family of Walpoten from Franconia was also Slavic - their castles have names of Slavic origin (Trebgast, Zwernitz). Medieval von Slawendorf family were also Franconian Slavs. Slavic population of Slawendorf (later called Altenstadt, today part of Bayeruth) preserved their language until the 14th century, as there are 14th century documents which say about Slavic inhabitants there. Near Weichenwasserlos there is a toponym Grotze suggesting existence of a Slavic castle. This Grotze is surrounded by settlements with names of Slavic origin - Granitz auf der Dobrich, Dobdansdorf in den Tibitzen, in der Peusteritz. Graitzstein, Greyczberg near Staffelstein, Marktgraitz, Teunz are other former Slavic castles in the region. German summary of the article about those Slavic tribes by Jerzy Strzelczyk:

http://s9.postimg.org/qxyj9j8pr/Slavs_in_Franconia.png

http://s9.postimg.org/qxyj9j8pr/Slavs_in_Franconia.png

=======================================

Map: Territories inhabited by Slavic peoples in the mid-9th century (ca. 850 AD):

(thick black lines) ludność słowiańska w zdecydowanej przewadze ======== Slavic population constitutes vast majority
(thin black lines) ludność słowiańska w rozproszeniu ================== dispersed settlement of Slavic population
(small red circles) ludność słowiańska poza głównym terytorium osiedlenia == Slavic people outside of main settlement area

http://s16.postimg.org/a1qohl76d/Slavic_world_850.png

Boundaries of ethnic Slavic territories underlined with red line:

http://s24.postimg.org/lm43jdket/Slavic_world_850_B.png

Map is originally from:

"Słowianie, ich wędrówki, siedziby i otoczenie etniczne we wczesnośredniowiecznej Europie"
("Slavs, their migrations, homelands and ethnic environment in Early Medieval Europe")
by Adam Sengebusch

Peterski

12-26-2014, 04:53 PM

By the way - LeBrok from Eupedia forum noticed this:

http://s2.postimg.org/y56xlyfex/M458.png

The one region of 53.1% in Ukraine correlates with location of second Polanie tribe.

http://itsallaboutculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/BIGslavs_8c.png.png

Indeed! Great find / observation!

It seems to confirm that those were two branches of the same tribe / ethnic group, which was migrating:

http://ciekawostkihistoryczne.pl/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/polanie-tu-i-tam.jpg

M458 is the strongest in West Slavic, (Lechites?)

And in Croats - which seem to confirm that Croats came from White Croatia which was part of West Slavic lands.

"White" in Slavic terminology designates "north", thus the name of the region means "Northern Croatia" - check:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svetovid#Appearance

Svitovyd (Svetovyd) is an old-Slavonic pre-christian totem-god (...). Idols which depicted the totem were characterized by having four faces. As a result this totem was able to see the whole world. Each face had a specific colour. The northern face of this totem was white (hence Belarus, the White Sea, etc.), the western - red (hence Chervona Rus; Red Ruthenia), the southern Black (hence the Black Sea) and the eastern Green (hence Zelenyj klyn; Green Ukraine etc.).

Red Ruthenia (i.e. "Western Ruthenia" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ruthenia
Green Ukraine (i.e. "Eastern Ukraine" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Ukraine
White Sea (i.e." Northern Sea" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sea
Black Sea (i.e. "Southern Sea" in Slavic): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea

Peterski

12-26-2014, 06:50 PM

Concerning the similarity of Czechs and Croats:

Map of Early Medieval Czech tribes (check the tribes of Charvati and Charvatci):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29632-Poland-more-Germanic-or-Slavic?p=447148&viewfull=1#post447148

http://labphys.tf.czu.cz/czechtribes.htm

http://labphys.tf.czu.cz/CeskeKmeny.jpg

Smaller version:

http://img9.rajce.idnes.cz/d0901/4/4591/4591434_c847247814c013764841490af27b5cbd/images/CIMG1902_prvni_slovanske_kmeny_6.stol.jpg?ver=0

Stanislav

12-26-2014, 08:20 PM

Kashubian Pomerania is just a part of a whole region of Pomerania. But they (Kashubians) are mostly Z280 as well.

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/977035_134653640065562_521144046_o_zpsef632bb3.jpg

We are believe that Ilmen slovenes (novgorodians) - is a ancestry of the most of north russian, and that there is from South Baltic (Pomerania and Prussia). Our Z280 (main fore russian R1a) - from this land.

Peterski

12-28-2014, 05:57 PM

Scythians and Sarmatians were Indo-European, Iranic-speaking tribes. Not Turkic.

Tocharians from the Tarim Basin in the Xinjiang province were also Indo-European, not Turkic.

Easternmost Indo-European groups from the Eurasian steppe - those who lived in the Altai Mountains, Western Mongolia, Eastern Kazakhstan, West Siberian Plain and Western China (Xinjiang province) perhaps either participated in ethnogenesis of Turkic groups, or were partially absorbed by them at some point. Turkic peoples emerged in Siberia, perhaps as a mixture of Eastern Asian and Western Eurasian populations (alternatively, it is also possible that at the beginning they were "pure" Eastern Asians, and only later they assimilated and absorbed large numbers of Western Eurasians, including some of Indo-European groups, since during the Bronze Age Indo-Europeans were masters of the entire Eurasian steppe - from the Carpathian Mountains to the Altai Mountains).

Today Turkic Uyghurs are the easternmost group with significant Indo-European ancestry, as revealed by fact that almost half of them share the same version of mutation for light skin which is present in Indo-European and some other Western Eurasian populations, but completely absent in East Asians (they have different versions of light skin mutations). This testifies to the fact that Uyghurs are a "mongrelized" population of Western Eurasian Indo-European speakers assimilated by Eastern Asians, who imposed their language (or perhaps Turkic languages emerged as the result of that miscegenation between "Mongoloid" Eastern Asians and "Caucasoid" Western Eurasians):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=541108

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=541108&page=2

Uyghurs of western China (Xinjiang) are the easternmost population with high frequencies of European versions (red colour) of light skin gene:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2007/12/tocharians-within-the-last-6000-years/#.VJ8VDdMd8

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/uyger4.jpg

And a map ("30" are Uyghurs):

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710.abstract?etoc

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/3/710.full.pdf+html

Polymorphisms in 2 genes, ASIP and OCA2, may play a shared role in shaping light and dark pigmentation across the globe, whereas SLC24A5, MATP, and TYR have a predominant role in the evolution of light skin in Europeans but not in East Asians. These findings support a case for the recent convergent evolution of a lighter pigmentation phenotype in Europeans and East Asians.

http://s8.postimg.org/u5zuikwxh/Mapaa.png

http://s8.postimg.org/u5zuikwxh/Mapaa.png

From wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Xinjiang#Genetic_evidence

Modern genetic analysis suggests that ancient inhabitants [of Xinjiang] had a high proportion of DNA of European origin.[15]

In 2009, the remains of individuals found at the Xiaohe Tomb complex were analyzed for Y-DNA and mtDNA markers. The study found that while Y-DNA corresponded to West Eurasian populations, the mtDNA haplotypes were an admixture of East Asian and European origin.[16] The geographic location of where this admixing took place is suggested to be somewhere in Southern Siberia before these people moved into the Tarim Basin. Xiaohe is the oldest archaeological site yielding human remains discovered in the Tarim Basin to date.

Some Uyghur scholars claim modern Uyghurs descent from both the Turkic Uyghurs and the pre-Turkic Tocharians (Yuezhi), and relatively fair hair and eyes, as well as other so-called 'Caucasoid' physical traits, are not uncommon among Uyghurs. Genetic analyses suggest West Eurasian ("Caucasoid") maternal contribution to Uyghurs is 42.6%. The estimation of European component in modern Uyghur population ranged from 30 to 60%.[17]

Uyghurs, as other peoples of the former Silk Road and of the Eurasian steppe in general, seem to be a blend of Western and Eastern Eurasians.

Some photos of Uyghurs: https://www.google.pl/search?q=Uyghurs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=WRqfVNmXJuPnywPn8YGICw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ

Proto-Shaman

12-30-2014, 04:07 PM

Shah-Jehan

12-31-2014, 01:09 AM

Why were my posts deleted?

Proto-Shaman

12-31-2014, 10:11 AM

Why were my posts deleted?
somebody has gone rampage and deleted 5 pages of discussion. that's disgusting!

Artek

12-31-2014, 10:25 AM

somebody has gone rampage and deleted 5 pages of discussion. that's disgusting!
I have requested for deleting or moving offtopic. It's a thread about an R1a, not physical anthropology and character of Scythians.

Proto-Shaman

12-31-2014, 10:31 AM

I have requested for deleting or moving offtopic. It's a thread about an R1a, not physical anthropology and character of Scythians.
fine with me. where are the moved posts?

Artek

12-31-2014, 10:34 AM

fine with me. where are the moved posts?
Administrator decided to delete posts. I'm sorry.

Proto-Shaman

12-31-2014, 11:07 AM

Administrator decided to delete posts. I'm sorry.
no problem. would have been better when the responsible admin could have leave a short message.

Artek

01-03-2015, 08:39 PM

Latest news - rare S29402 branch that is just under Z280 (parallel to much more numerous CTS1211) stopped being wholly Western. Testing of a clusters made from Poles, Ukrainians and Belarussians have shown today, that they are also positive to that particular SNP. It makes this ancient CWC branch quite widespread - from county Mayo in Ireland to Belarus.

http://oi60.tinypic.com/rw137t.jpg

And other news - Polish user Wojnar (sadly, inactive from September 2014 but I'm in contact with him) received his results of FTDNA test recently.
Basing on Y-STR markers he belongs to the R1a - M458>L260>YP254>YP414 clade. It's an ultimate lechitic branch, not suprising because he it's from near of Gniezno.

Artek

01-05-2015, 10:50 AM

https://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/10900146_10205567010118403_5778191276701029223_o.j pg

Proto-Shaman

01-05-2015, 02:19 PM

...
What about north Indian IE and Nepalese ST M780, are they in that chart?
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54079&d=1420471326

And what about the three unnamed Z2123 lineages, is there still no info?
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54078&d=1420471326

Artek

01-05-2015, 03:10 PM

What about north Indian IE and Nepalese ST M780, are they in that chart?
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54079&d=1420471326

And what about the three unnamed Z2123 lineages, is there still no info?
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=54078&d=1420471326
Underhill's M780 is an insignificant SNP on a similar level to L657, not found as a separate branch among project members - that's why it's not included. So take it as an L657, basically.

The problem with Z2123 lineages is about testees, who aren't prone to order BigY for various reasons.The next thing... Z2122 is much often found among tested Europeans from wealthier nations, most likely a descendants of westernmost Iranian-speaking groups that later got absorbed by other ethnicities - notably Germanics in case of various Z2122+ Y57+.

Peterski

01-10-2015, 02:48 AM

Using this awesome tool (link below) I've found places where some of modern descendants of Andronovo Culture's R1a individuals from Keyser's 2009 study live:

I also used this database of ancient Y-DNA, to get their genetic profiles: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

Here are the Y-DNA profiles (Haplotype) of these particular two ancient individuals (Table 2):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/adnastr.shtml

All I needed to do was to fill in the same Haplotype here (proper numbers in each field):

http://yhrd.org/search

The Results (http://s21.postimg.org/uzznbknif/Andronovo_1.png)

http://s21.postimg.org/uzznbknif/Andronovo_1.png

However, the size of their database for each country is different.

===============================

Those two Bronze Age individuals belonged to the Andronovo Culture (map below - red boundaries):

http://s27.postimg.org/512vb40a9/Andronovo_Culture.png

Peterski

01-10-2015, 03:25 AM

But now something EVEN better - modern matches with the Tagar Culture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagar_culture

The Tagar tribes are thought to have been Caucasoids of the Scythian circle.[1] They lived in timber dwellings heated by clay ovens and large hearths. Some settlements were surrounded by fortifications. They made a living by raising livestock, predominantly large horned livestock and horses, goats and sheep. Harvest was collected with bronze sickles and reaping knives.[2] Their artifacts were heavily influenced by Scythian art from Pazyryk. Perhaps the most striking feature of the culture are huge royal kurgans fenced by stone plaques, with four vertical stelae marking the corners. The Tagar culture is preceded by the Karasuk culture and succeeded by the Tashtyk culture.

(...)

Ancient DNA extracted from the remains of six males who dated back to the Tagar culture were determined to be of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a. Extracted mtDNA from two female remains from this cultural horizon revealed they possessed the T3 and H lineages. The study determined that the majority of the individuals had light hair and blue or green eyes.[3]

The Results (http://s10.postimg.org/805b7gskp/Tagar_1.png)

http://s10.postimg.org/805b7gskp/Tagar_1.png

Mark

01-10-2015, 03:29 AM

...

The ftDNA R1a project still hasn't gotten in touch with me lol.

Peterski

01-10-2015, 04:42 AM

And another guy from Tagar Culture ("Rv" in table 2) - looks like his descendants went for example to Afghanistan:

http://s24.postimg.org/6ev3ck6px/Tagar_2.png

Artek

01-10-2015, 08:40 AM

The ftDNA R1a project still hasn't gotten in touch with me lol.
What's your kit number? I will immediately inform a lead admin about you, I'm going to be a project co-administrator anyway.

...
YHRD matches on that level of markers are mostly irrelevant, especially most of matches from Europe. I fail to see Tagar R1a as other than subbranch of R1a-Z93. Still, it also takes many R1a-Z280s as a matches because of a homoplasy.

Mark

01-10-2015, 08:41 AM

What's your kit number? I will immediately inform a lead admin about you, I'm going to be a project co-administrator anyway.

Thank you kind sir! :D I will PM you with it shortly...

...and Congrats!

Peterski

01-10-2015, 03:01 PM

There are also 4 more Bronze Age R1a males from Tagar Culture and 1 more from Tachtyk Culture to check with this tool (but 2 of these 5 have the same haplotype).

But, for now, let's check something different - Urnfield Culture:

Lichtenstein Cave - 2 males (M10 and M11) with R1a1 (http://s8.postimg.org/tyyobze1x/Urnfield_III.png) (the remaining 12 Y-DNAs from this cave are: 1 R1b and 11 I2a2b):

http://s8.postimg.org/tyyobze1x/Urnfield_III.png

Peterski

01-10-2015, 03:39 PM

YHRD matches on that level of markers are mostly irrelevant, especially most of matches from Europe.

Andronovo seems to have matches on a rather high level of markers.

Artek

01-10-2015, 03:43 PM

Unrfield's examplary exact matches:
(Tsikaluri) Z93
(Perkins) Z284>S4458>S5301>S5153>L448>CTS4179>(CLFY1?)>YP276>L176.1*
(Mann)Z284>S4458>S5301>S5153>L448>YP355>YP609>YP618-C2
(Lichtenstein) Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP234>YP295>L366*
(Cochran) Z284>S4458>S5301>S5153>L448>YP355>YP609>YP618-C2
(Cooley) Z284>S4458>S5301>S5153>L448>YP355>YP609*-B
(Kidd) Z284>S4458>S5301>S5153>L448>CTS4179>S6353>F1493
(Seymour) Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123>Y934-A>CTS1806-x
(Barisakho) Z93

This makes no sense at all. The same nonsense as in Andronovo. Matches with different R1a haplotypes that have TMRCA of 6 thousand years if combined.

Andronovo seems to have matches on a rather high level of markers.
Too few relevant markers tested, no SNPs! Only Hollard tested some ancient Scytho-Siberians for Z93 and it was positive. Even 37 markers may not be sufficient if not backed up by Y-SNP test.

Demhat

01-11-2015, 11:19 AM

Underhill's M780 is an insignificant SNP on a similar level to L657, not found as a separate branch among project members - that's why it's not included. So take it as an L657, basically.

The problem with Z2123 lineages is about testees, who aren't prone to order BigY for various reasons.The next thing... Z2122 is much often found among tested Europeans from wealthier nations, most likely a descendants of westernmost Iranian-speaking groups that later got absorbed by other ethnicities - notably Germanics in case of various Z2122+ Y57+.

Underhills whole work on Kurds is insignificant. He has 30 Kurdish samples from Cillicia in SouthCentral Anatolia (an exclave and therefore bottlenecked), not traditional Kurdistan itself, in his whole database. This is no comparison to the 427 Armenian, 1300+ Iranian and 600+ Turkish samples.

Additional to that he has in reality 33 Kurdish samples of which the three are not listed under "Kurds from Turkey" because 1. they are not from Kurds of Turkey 2. they are not even labeled as Kurd but "Iranian".

one of these is R1a1a m17 (Basal R1a1a*) listed as "Iranian" from the Kordistan province.
one is m576 also listed as "Iranian" from the Kordistan province.
And three other are m582 which one of them is simply listed as simply "Kurd" and therefore not in his "Kurds from Turkey" database.

Add to that, that we already have a Kurd with R1a l62 (basal R1a*) who is active on other Forums and a Kurdish sample tested as z283+.

That is a whole lot of diversity.

That alone is enough for me to know, the 30 samples of Underhill, from a bottlenecked exclave in SouthCentral Anatolia, are not representative for actual Kurdistan.

Artek

01-11-2015, 11:34 AM

Underhills whole work on Kurds is insignificant. He has 30 Kurdish samples from Cillicia in SouthCentral Anatolia (an enxlave and therefore bottlenecked), not traditional Kurdistan itself, in his whole database. This is no comparison to the 427 Armenian, 1300+ Iranian and 600+ Turkish samples.

Additional to that he has in reality 33 Kurdish samples of which the three are not listed under Kurdish because 1. they are not from Kurds of Turkey 2. they are not even labeled as Kurd but "Iranian".

one of these is R1a1a m17 (Basal R1a1a*) listed as "Iranian" from the Kurdistan province.
one is m576 also listed as "Iranian" from the Kurdistan province.
And three other are m582 which one of them is simply listed as "Kurd and therefore not in his "Kurds from Turkey" database.

Add to that, that we already have a Kurd with R1a l62 (basal R1a*) and a Kurd who is z283+.

That alone is enough for me that the 30+ samples, of Underhill, from a bottlenecked enxlave in SouthCentral Anatolia, is not representative for actual Kurdistan.
Thesis of Underhill is generally full of mistakes. He also undersampled Europe. 1 data point in Sweden - Malmo (really?), one datapoint in Germany, one datapoint in Spain, zero sampling from France. He used wrong phylogeny, because Z282 was downstream of Z280 in his thesis.

But as I always like to find a good sides of any failure - he paid attention of those researchers who may have read the thesis, that other SNPs than M17 or M417 DO EXIST, FOR FUCK'S SAKE. :D

Z282* is found in Kurdistan indeed, we have some Z282* people from that area in our project, as well as basal M420*. That would be great for at least one of them to order BigY or something equivalent.

Demhat

01-11-2015, 11:42 AM

There are actually two (z282 and Z283) which I have heard of personally. One is in our Kurdish database, the other was actually a User here on this Forum, his username was AlanAstar(He was z282).

It doesn't make sense to me, to not take more samples from a region which is knownly one of the most significant (maybe the most significant) when it comes to R1a in Western Asia.

The only way I can explain this, the governments of the countries did not approve genetic testing for this region( maybe because of turmloils or other political agenda) otherwhise I really have no explanation for that extremely low sample size, and than even outside of traditional Kurdish settlements. I mean if I want to take a sample from Germans, I don't go to northwestern France and take the samples from there.

Artek

01-11-2015, 11:45 AM

New haplotree
http://oi60.tinypic.com/23m8pd2.jpg

Old haplotree for comparison

http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/ad228/CeltHussar/r1acladessnp_zpsaa6c18d8.jpg

Artek

01-11-2015, 12:16 PM

There are actually two (z282 and Z283) which I have heard of personally. One is in our Kurdish database, the other was actually a User here on this Forum, his username was AlanAstar(He was z282).
Is he tested with FTDNA? We need every such haplotype in our project.

It doesn't make sense to me, to not take more samples from a region which is knownly one of the most significant (maybe the most significant) when it comes to R1a in Western Asia.
Indeed. Although it would've been even better to test those people commercially. The other way would be to sequence them in thesis like of Hallast or Francalacci and publish results in supplementary.

The only way I can explain this, the governments of the countries did not approve genetic testing for this region( maybe because of turmloils or other political agenda) otherwhise I really have no explanation for that extremely low sample size, and than even outside of traditional Kurdish settlements. I mean if I want to take a sample from Germans, I don't go to northwestern France and take the samples from there.
May be something political. Although there may be an incompetence as well, giving previously stated examples of such.

Demhat

01-11-2015, 12:19 PM

Is he tested with FTDNA? We need every such haplotype in our project.

I have no idea which company he used something tells me it even might have been Igenea, I used to write with him over a year ago. Look at my Visitor Message page. He suddenly wasn't around anymore. He left or was banned.

Peterski

02-01-2015, 12:35 AM

Actually, M458 makes 57% among Sorbs themselves

Has anyone tested Y-DNA of inhabitants of the isolated region of Drawehn/Wendland, where Slavic - but Obotrite, not Sorbian - language was spoken until ca. 1800? In 1600 there were still ~15,000 Obotrite-speakers there, living in over 120 villages and partially in towns (but those in towns were adopting German language faster):

http://koszalin7.pl/st/pom/pomorze_101.html

http://www.wendland-archiv.de/

Map showing the region of Drawehn (aka Wendland):

54686

Drawehn was inhabited by Slavic (Wendisch) Drzewianie/Drevani, one of Obotrite tribes:

http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/75/Karte_Naturpark_Elbufer-Drawehn.png

http://s24.postimg.org/fcj7nel1x/Drawehn.png

Haplogroups of inhabitants of the islands of Hiddensee (Hycina) and Ruegen (Rugia) should also be tested, results might be interesting - those islands have seen relatively little immigration and 79,21% of all settlements on Ruegen have names of Slavic origin. Slavic was spoken in parts of Ruegen until the 17th century, especially in the Wittow Peninsula (north), in the Jasmund Peninsula (northeast) and in the Mönchgut Peninsula (southeast):

http://koszalin7.pl/st/pom/pomorze_104.html

Check this map:

http://koszalin7.pl/img/pomorze/slowianie/ranowie_06.jpg

XV w. = Slavic-speaking areas during the 15th century
XVI w. = Slavic-speaking areas during the 16th century

http://koszalin7.pl/img/pomorze/slowianie/ranowie_06.jpg

Some traces of Slavic language survived there even into the 1800s:

In 1847 Polish traveler Wincent Pol visited Mönchgut Peninsula of the island of Ruegen and noted that its inhabitants - despite speaking a local dialect of German - still considered themselves to be a separate ethnic groups, called "Reboken" - which sounds like rybacy (fishers in Polish). Pol also recorded that their local German dialect included some clearly Slavic words - he wrote them down: reba, morie, żywot (life), ziemia (earth), niebo (sky), chmara, drel, mleko (milk), kęs, tata (father), mać, dziewa (girl), perekop, Bóg (God), chata (home), piorun*, woda (water)...

*Piorun (also Perun) was a Pagan Slavic god of thunder. Baltic equivalent is Perkunas.

After Christianization the word started to mean "thunderbolt".

==================================

Another good idea would be to test Y-DNA haplogroups of Germans who have surnames of Slavic origin, particularly such surnames which originate from Obotrites, Veleti, Pomeranians, Sorbs (rather than Poles, Czechs, etc.). These include surnames such as Janke, Radtke, Reschke, Liedtke, Mielke, Paschke, etc. - and many others.

==================================

Often neighbouring Slavic groups have totally different percentage distribution of R1a subclades (check for example Croats and Slovenes - I already posted Underhill's data about these differences before).

This is why we must check what subclades descendants of Obotrites and Veleti have - because assuming that Slavic Obotrites and Veleti were M458 just because Sorbs are mostly M458, is of course wrong.

Polabian-speakers (Obotrites and Veleti) lived in the north, Sorbian-speakers in the south.

Here is the approximate distribution of contiguous areas of Polabian-spekaers (north of Berlin) and Sorbian-speakers (south of Berlin) in the 16th century, after Germanization had already made considerable progress:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13551558&postcount=63

http://s1.postimg.org/fyqd5p2mn/Polabian_Sorbian_XVI_c.png

The decline of Sorbian-speaking territory since the 16th century to modern times:

https://journals.dartmouth.edu/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Journals.woa/xmlpage/1/article/302?htmlOnce=yes

https://journals.dartmouth.edu/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Journals.woa/xmlpage/1/article/302/01.jpg

♠ Catholic Sorbian communities
⌧ area devastated by brown coal mining
Grey — contiguous Sorbian-speaking area at the beginning of the 16th century
Light green — areas in which the older generation still spoke Sorbian around 1789
Dark green — areas in which the rural population spoke Sorbian around 1789
Blue — areas in which the majority of the population spoke Sorbian around 1884
Red — areas in which part of the population still speaks Sorbian today

Sorbian language in 1000 AD and in 1800 AD:

http://language-diversity.eu/en/knowledge/regions-of-europe/die-sorbenwenden-in-der-lausitz/

http://language-diversity.eu/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Entwicklung-des-Sprachgebietes.png

http://s2.postimg.org/6gppe3wop/Sorbian_Lusatian.png

Artek

02-03-2015, 11:05 PM

Danish and Grenlandic R1a from the newest thesis:

http://oi61.tinypic.com/309nb81.jpg

However, M417's are in fact L664's and Z282* should be considered as Y2395xZ284(so kind of pre-Z284)

Peterski

02-05-2015, 05:03 PM

So Z284 is represented as much in Greenland as in Denmark, while M458 and Z91 (Z280) are much more frequent in Denmark than in Greenland. This indicates that by the time when R1a first migrated to Greenland (the 900s - 1000s AD?), subclades M458 and Z91 (Z280) were not present or very rare in Denmark. This result confirms that M458 and Z91 (Z280) were introduced to Denmark by Medieval Slavic immigrants.

On the other hand Z284 travelled already with Scandinavian Vikings during the Early Middle Ages.

Frequency ratio of Z284 in Greenland to Denmark: 1 to 1,16
Frequency ratio of L664 in Greenland to Denmark: 1 to 2,33

Frequency ratio of M458 in Greenland to Denmark: 1 to 7,25
Freq. ratio of Z91 (Z280) in Greenland to Denmark: 1 to 9,25

Which suggests that Z284 is most native to and oldest in Scandinavia while Z91 (Z280) is least native to and youngest in Scandinavia.

Artek

02-08-2015, 03:39 PM

Which suggests that Z284 is most native to and oldest in Scandinavia while Z91 (Z280) is least native to and youngest in Scandinavia.
This would suggest that M458 is at least slightly more native and older to Scandinavia, what's obviously not true.
They both came in the same period, in general, but if I were to really guess between M458 and Z280, I think that some old&rare Z280 clades (like S24902) were there before M458.
L664 is most likely slightly older to Scandinavia than Z284, especially in Denmark.

Artek

02-08-2015, 04:54 PM

A very rare M458* popped up, found among Karachay-Balkar man (Taumurzaev). Very unlikely to represent a recent influx from Russians.

Artek

02-11-2015, 01:34 PM

Peterski

02-11-2015, 02:49 PM

No R1a from Yamna, Unetice (though previous studies shown there was), Bell Beakers

I noticed that they did not make use of all existing previous studies, only some of them.

List of previous studies they made use of is given on page 24 of their paper.

But when it comes to this R1a - wasn't that from Urnfield rather than from Unetice ???

From a 2006 study by Schilz (and that R1a was uncertain, it seems):

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/bibliography.sht

Artek

02-11-2015, 02:53 PM

I noticed that they did not make use of all existing previous studies, only some of them.

List of previous studies they made use of is given on page 24 of their paper.

But when it comes to this R1a - wasn't that from Urnfield rather than from Unetice ???
Sorry, it was Urnfield indeed.

From a 2006 study by Schilz (and that R1a was uncertain, it seems):
Judging by y-strs, I guess it can't be anything but R1a. Just subclade can't be determined.

Peterski

02-11-2015, 02:55 PM

R1a1a1-M417xZ282 from Corded Ware site at Esperstedt 2473 - 2348 cal BCE

But he is within the 4% of modern R1a, he does not belong to 96% of modern R1a:

I0104 (Corded_Ware_LN)

This individual was assigned to haplogroup R1a1a1 based on mutation M417:8533735G→A, and also
had six upstream mutations placing it in haplogroup R1a1a (M515:14054623T→A,
M198:15030752C→T, L168:16202177A→G, M512:16315153C→T, M514:19375294C→T, and
L449:22966756C→T) and four mutations placing it in haplogroup R1a1 (L145:14138745C→A,
L62:17891241A→G and L63:18162834T→C, L146:23473201T→A).
We could further exclude lineages R1a1a1a (CTS7083:17275047T→G) and R1a1a1b
(S441:7683058G→A, S224:8245045C→T), so I0104 could be more precisely described as
R1a1a1*(x R1a1a1a, R1a1a1b).
Three related individuals belonging to haplogroup R1a were previously described from Corded Ware
individuals from Eulau, Germany3. The R-M417 haplogroup has an estimated TMRCA of ~5,800
years ago4, which indicates that I0104 lived about 1.5ky after the foundation of this lineage from
which the vast majority of modern R1a-related chromosomes from across Eurasia are descended.
More than 96% of modern European R-M417 Y-chromosomes belong4 to lineage R1a1a1b1a-Z282
which can be excluded for individual I0104, both indirectly, based on its ancestral state for the
upstream mutation defining haplogroup R1a1a1b, and directly, as the individual was ancestral for the
Z282 polymorphism itself (15588401T→C). Thus, I0104 was related to the modern European set of
R1a Y-chromosomes but did not belong to the more dominant group within this set.

And info about the other two R1a individuals:

R1a1a1b1a2-Z280 from Late Bronze Age Germany, Halberstadt. 1113 -1021 cal BCE

Here:

I0099 (Halberstadt_LBA)
This single individual from the Late Bronze Age could be assigned to haplogroup R1a1a1b1a2 based
on S204:16474793G→A, and to upstream R1a1a1b1a (S198:15588401T→C), and R1a1a1b1
(PF6217:21976303T→A), and R1a1a1b (S224:8245045C→T, S441:7683058G→A). It is thus more
derived than the earlier Corded Ware I0104 individual and belongs firmly within the present-day
European variation of R1a Y-chromosomes.

And:

R1a1-M459 from Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia, Russia, Mesolithic. 5500 - 5000 BCE

Here:

I0061 (Karelia_HG)
In contrast to I0104 and I0099, the hunter-gatherer from Karelia could only be assigned to haplogroup
R1a1 (M459:6906074A→G, Page65.2:2657176C→T) and the upstream haplogroup R1a
(L145:14138745C→A, L62:17891241A→G, L63:18162834T→C, L146:23473201T→A). It was
ancestral for the downstream clade R1a1a (M515:14054623T→A, M198:15030752C→T,
M512:16315153C→T, M514:19375294C→T, L449:22966756C→T). Thus, it can be designated as
belonging to haplogroup R1a1*(xR1a1a) and it occupied a basal position to the vast majority of
modern Eurasian R1a-related Y-chromosomes4, although more basal (R1a-M420*) Y-chromosomes
have been detected in Iran and eastern Turkey4. Overall, our detection of haplogroup R1a1 in a
northwest Russian hunter-gatherer establishes the early presence of this lineage in eastern Europe, and
is consistent with a later migration from eastern Europe into central Europe which contributed such
haplogroups to the Corded Ware population.

Any important ideas or conclusions from all of this info ???

Peterski

02-11-2015, 03:11 PM

About R1b hunter-gatherer from Samara, in Russia (Holocene):

I0124 (Samara_HG)
The hunter-gatherer from Samara belonged to haplogroup R1b1 (L278:18914441C→T), with
upstream haplogroup R1b (M343:2887824C→A) also supported. However, he was ancestral for both
the downstream haplogroup R1b1a1 (M478:23444054T→C) and R1b1a2 (M269:22739367T→C) and
could be designated as R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2). Thus, this individual was basal to most west
Eurasian R1b individuals which belong to the R-M269 lineage as well as to the related R-M73/M478
lineage that has a predominantly non-European distribution17. The occurrence of chromosomes basal
to the most prevalent lineages within haplogroups R1a and R1b in eastern European hunter-gatherers,
together with the finding of basal haplogroup R* in the ~24,000-year old Mal’ta (MA1) boy18
suggests the possibility that some of the differentiation of lineages within haplogroup R occurred in
north Eurasia, although we note that we do not have ancient DNA data from more southern regions of
Eurasia. Irrespective of the more ancient origins of this group of lineages, the occurrence of basal
forms of R1a and R1b in eastern European hunter-gatherers provide a geographically plausible source
for these lineages in later Europeans where both lineages are prevalent4,17,19.

And about that R1b individual from Els Trocs, Spain (Early Neolithic):

I0410 (Spain_EN)
We determined that this individual belonged to haplogroup R1b1 (M415:9170545C→A), with
upstream haplogroup R1b (M343:2887824C→A) also supported. However, the individual was
ancestral for R1b1a1 (M478:23444054T→C), R1b1a2 (PF6399:2668456C→T, L265:8149348A→G,
L150.1:10008791C→T and M269:22739367T→C), R1b1c2 (V35:6812012T→A), and R1b1c3
(V69:18099054C→T), and could thus be designated R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2, R1b1c2, R1b1c3).
The occurrence of a basal form of haplogroup R1b1 in both western Europe and R1b1a in eastern
Europe (I0124 hunter-gatherer from Samara) complicates the interpretation of the origin of this
lineage. We are not aware of any other western European R1b lineages reported in the literature
before the Bell Beaker period (ref. 2 and this study). It is possible that either (i) the Early Neolithic
Spanish individual was a descendant of a Neolithic migrant from the Near East that introduced this
lineage to western Europe, or (ii) there was a very sparse distribution of haplogroup R1b in European
hunter-gatherers and early farmers, so the lack of its detection in the published literature may reflect
its occurrence at very low frequency.
The occurrence of a basal form of R1b1 in western Europe logically raises the possibility that presentday
western Europeans (who belong predominantly to haplogroup R1b1a2-M269) may trace their
origin to early Neolithic farmers of western Europe. However, we think this is not likely given the
existence of R1b1a2-M269 not only in western Europe but also in the Near East; such a distribution
implies migrations of M269 males from western Europe to the Near East which do not seem
archaeologically plausible. We prefer the explanation that R-M269 originated in the eastern end of its
distribution, given its first appearance in the Yamnaya males (below) and in the Near East17.

http://s18.postimg.org/upj9r8vu1/Timeline.png

Artek

02-11-2015, 03:15 PM

But he is within the 4% of modern R1a, he does not belong to 96% of modern R1a:

And info about the other two R1a individuals:

Here:

And:

Here:

Any important ideas or conclusions from all of this info ???
Not especially, I have already written what was stated there.

CWC haplotype could've been a CTS4385, so an SNP positive for all L664 people but in L664- form found only in Englishmen from R1a Project. I guess it's still present around the Benelux and Germany but very, very rare.

Peterski

02-12-2015, 01:00 PM

Thesis of Reich was released. Found R1a's :

R1a1-M459 from Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia, Russia, Mesolithic. 5500 - 5000 BCE
R1a1a1-M417xZ282 from Corded Ware site at Esperstedt 2473 - 2348 cal BCE
R1a1a1b1a2-Z280 from Late Bronze Age Germany, Halberstadt, Lusatian Culture. 1113 -1021 cal BCE

No R1a from Yamna, Unetice, Bell Beakers

So now - with previous samples from Eulau and Liechtenstein cave - we have in total 4 places (and 7 males) in Germany with ancient R1a:

- Eulau (x 3 males) ----------------------------------- Corded Ware Culture
- Esperstedt (x 1 male) ------------------------------ Corded Ware Culture
- Halberstadt (x 1 male) ----------------------------- Lusatian Culture
- Liechtenstein cave near Dorste (x 2 males) ------ Urnfield Culture

Right ??? Interestingly, all of these sites are located very close to each other:

http://s4.postimg.org/cl6m24ty5/R1a_places.png

And we also have this new hunter-gatherer R1a from Karelia.

I added these new places (Halberstadt, Esperstedt, Karelia) to the map of ancient R1a samples that I had made previously. Red points = places where ancient R1a has been discovered so far:

http://s18.postimg.org/qrqeg88tl/Ancient_R1a.png

Map shows aDNA samples + modern frequency of R1a according to Underhill 2014.

But we still have a huge "black hole" in the middle (between Germany and Russia, as well as in much of Russia).

All ancient European R1a samples are from peripheries of modern distribution of R1a.

It is high time to finally start digging for ancient Y-DNA in areas between Germany and Russia !!!

blogen

02-12-2015, 01:07 PM

Any important ideas or conclusions from all of this info ???

This is the important: R1a1-M459 from Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia, Russia, Mesolithic. 5500 - 5000 BCE

So the R1a was indigenous pre-Indoeuropean presumably in Eastern Europe.

Peterski

02-12-2015, 01:26 PM

So the R1a was indigenous pre-Indoeuropean presumably in Eastern Europe.

How do you know? You could say the same about R1b, given that it was discovered in Spain:

From the new paper, about this individual in Els Trocs, north-eastern Spain (pretty close to the Basques):

(...) I0410 (Spain_EN):

We determined that this individual belonged to haplogroup R1b1 (...) The occurrence of a basal form of haplogroup R1b1 in both western Europe and R1b1a in eastern Europe (I0124 hunter-gatherer from Samara) complicates the interpretation of the origin of this lineage. (...)

Here (page 76 out of 172): http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

Peterski

02-12-2015, 01:42 PM

So the R1a was indigenous pre-Indoeuropean presumably in Eastern Europe.

But which R1a are you talking about - European branch or Asian branch (Z93) ???

Check this - Indo-European Tocharians from Xiaohe were R1a, and also European R1a (not Z93):

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/8/15

The paper is from 2010, but in the comments section there is a 2014 comment by one of its authors:

Hui Zhou (2014-07-18 16:14) Jilin University

Archaeological and anthropological investigations have helped to formulate two main theories to account for the origin of the populations in the Tarim Basin. The first, so-called “steppe hypothesis”, maintains that the earliest settlers may have been nomadic herders of the Afanasievo culture (ca. 3300-2000 B.C.), a primarily pastoralist culture distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions of the steppe north of the Tarim Basin. The second model, known as the “Bactrian oasis hypothesis”, it maintains that the first settlers were farmers of the Oxus civilization (ca. 2200-1500 B.C.) west of Xinjiang in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, and Turkmenistan. These contrasting models can be tested using DNA recovered from archaeological bones. Xiaohe cemetery contains the oldest and best-preserved mummies so far discovered in the Tarim Basin, possible those of the earliest people to settle the region. Genetic analysis of these mummies can provide data to elucidate the affinities of the earliest inhabitants.

Our results show that Xiaohe settlers carried Hg R1a1 in paternal lineages, and Hgs H, K, C4, M*in maternal lineages. Though Hg R1a1a is found at highest frequency in both Europe and South Asia, Xiaohe R1a1a more likely originate from Europe because of it not belonging to R1a1a-Z93 branch (our recently unpublished data) which is mainly found in Asians. mtDNA Hgs H, K, C4 primarily distributed in northern Eurasians. Though H, K, C4 also presence in modern south Asian, they immigrated into South Asian recently from nearby populations, such as Near East , East Asia and Central Asia, and the frequency is obviously lower than that of northern Eurasian. Furthermore, all of the shared sequences of the Xiaohe haplotypes H and C4 were distributed in northern Eurasians. Haplotype 223-304 in Xiaohe people was shared by Indian. However, these sequences were attributed to HgM25 in India, and in our study it was not HgM25 by scanning the mtDNA code region. Therefore, our DNA results didn't supported Clyde Winters’s opinion but supported the “steppe hypothesis”. Moreover, the culture of Xiaohe is similar with the Afanasievo culture. Afanasievo culture was mainly distributed in the Eastern Kazakhstan, Altai, and Minusinsk regions, and didn’t spread into India. This further maintains the “steppe hypothesis”.

In addition, our data was misunderstand by Clyde Winters. Firstly, the human remains of the Xiaohe site have no relation with the Loulan mummy. The Xiaohe site and Loulan site are two different archaeological sites with 175km distances. Xiaohe site, radiocarbon dated ranging from 4000 to 3500 years before present, was a Bronze Age site, and Loulan site, dated to about 2000 years before present. Secondly, Hgs H and K are the mtDNA haplogroups not the Y chromosome haplogroups in our study. Thirdly, the origin of Xiaohe people in here means tracing the most recently common ancestor, and Africans were remote ancestor of modern people.

This is according to new (not yet officially published) data by Hui Zhou from Jilin University.

====================

Check also (about Tocharians):

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/tokol-0-X.html

http://www.oxuscom.com/eyawtkat.htm

blogen

02-12-2015, 01:59 PM

How do you know?

Again: mesolithic R1a1-M459 from Karelia: 5500-5000 BCE when the Sredny Stog culture happened in 4500-3500 BCE only and this Sredny Stog was the oldest presumably Indoeuropean phenomenon in the steppe onto 1500 km to south from the first known R1a1-M459 case!

I think, this is a very clear situation.

Peterski

02-12-2015, 02:17 PM

Peterski

02-12-2015, 02:23 PM

the first known R1a1-M459 case!

Dig in Poland, Belarus, etc. and you will probably find older R1a there.

blogen

02-12-2015, 02:28 PM

Have you read the 2014 paper by Underhill on R1a? It is not native to Karelia. It had migrated there.
BTW - the oldest found R1 (ancestor for both R1a and R1b) is from Mal'ta in Siberia, 24,000 years old.
We still have no ancient Y-DNA from these parts of Europe where R1a is most common today:
http://s12.postimg.org/4zwvju6fx/Black_Hole.png

Jesus, Mal'ta boy lived 16 000 years before than this Karelian person! Mal'ta is totally irrevelant here, since we talk about the mesolithic-neolithic transition and the Indoeuropean were neolithic peoples in Eastern Europe, the local mesolithic was clearly pre-Indoeuropean. And this Karelian guy represents that Eastern European mesolithic.

So the R1a was part of the Eastern European mesolithic heritage. This is a fact now.

Dig in Poland, Belarus, etc. and you will probably find older R1a there.

Yes, these Karelian people's heritage. They lived in Eastern Europe.

Peterski

02-12-2015, 03:25 PM

But we also have a sample of Early Neolithic R1b in Spain now.

And we also have a Late Mesolithic R1b from Eastern Europe (Samara).

So R1b is also not IE? If R1b and R1a are not IE then what is?

the local mesolithic was clearly pre-Indoeuropean

They were hunter-gatherers and direct paternal ancestors of Indo-Europeans, apparently.

So the R1a was part of the Eastern European mesolithic heritage.

And so was R1b (see that hunter-gatherer from Samara, which is located in Eastern Europe).

What it suggests is that Indo-Europeans emerged in Eastern Europe and expanded from there.

blogen

02-12-2015, 03:30 PM

But we also have a sample of Early Neolithic R1b in Spain now.
And we also have a Late Mesolithic R1b from Eastern Europe (Samara).
So R1b is also not IE? If R1b and R1a are not IE then what is?

I don't know. The R1b is a question now. Definitely Oriental origin, but maybe before the Indoeuropeans or maybe they were the carriers in Eastern Europe. But most probably not the Indoeuropeans were the R1b peoples in Western Europe, but the Bellbeaker population.

They were hunter-gatherers and direct paternal ancestors of Indo-Europeans, apparently.

Yes.

Peterski

02-12-2015, 04:01 PM

I've found a reconstruction by Gerasimov of that Mesolithic R1a male from Karelia:

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_04.jpg

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_03.jpg

http://www.kunstkamera.ru/images/g/11_02.jpg

And also here is the distance between those early Karelia R1a and Samara R1b:

http://tjpeiffer.com/crowflies.html

http://s4.postimg.org/t5sd42jyl/R1b_R1a.png

Peterski

02-12-2015, 05:28 PM

By the way:

R1a1a1b1a2-Z280 from Late Bronze Age East Germany, Halberstadt, Lusatian Culture. 1113 -1021 cal BCE

So we have Balto-Slavic Y-DNA in Lusatian Culture:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

R1a-Z280 is also an Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe, with a western limit running from East to south-west Germany and to Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on.

Moreover, it was found in the westernmost peripheries:

http://s23.postimg.org/ejjquv6d7/Lusatian_Culture.png

Peterski

02-13-2015, 04:59 PM

People are so busy with this sensational R1b in the steppe that they overlooked sensational Balto-Slav in Bronze Age Germany. :)

Proto-Shaman

02-13-2015, 10:02 PM

People are so busy with this sensational R1b in the steppe that they overlooked sensational Balto-Slav in Bronze Age Germany. :)
According to Klyosov "... the IE speakers (R1a) arrived in the Balkans and further in Europe between the 10th - 8th millennia bp. Gimbutas’ theory is in error when it proposes the formation of territorial, nomadic, pastoral populations speaking PIE languages (collectively named the Kurgan culture), in the 7th millennium bp in the area of the Dnepr and Don basins, the middle and lower Volga basin, the Caucasus and the Ural mountains. In fact, there were no PIEs (R1a) at those times in those territories. The Kurgan theory apparently has inverted the roles of the NIE (R1b) and the IE (R1a). Instead, these cultural features should be ascribed to NIEs (R1b) who migrated westward. Gimbutas claims that IE speakers migrated to Europe three times--first, between 6400 and 6300 ybp; second, around 5500 ybp (from the area North of the Black Sea); third, between 5000 and 4800 ybp (allegedly from the Volga steppes). These claims are unsupportable. There were no IEs (R1a) in the Volga steppes between 5000 and 4800 ybp or earlier; they arrived between 4600 and 4300 ybp. Had they been in the steppes, they would have been moving from Europe eastward."

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=31366#.VN6CYp2G9g0

Peterski

02-14-2015, 12:27 AM

But how does Klyosov know that R1b were Non-IE speakers ??? This is just an assumption - based on what?

This steppe data confirms that R1b (or at least some of them) were IE speakers, and so were R1a (or at least some of them).

there were no PIEs (R1a) at those times in those territories.

Just because they did not find R1a in 7 Samara burials (very localized), doesn't mean they were not there.

We have 9 x R1a in Andronovo (which is descended from Yamna) and 4 x R1a in Corded Ware (also descended from Yamna).

So logically there should be some R1a among Yamnaya as well, just not among those 7 x R1b from Samara.

Peterski

02-14-2015, 12:39 AM

BTW - when it comes to that Neolithic R1b from Els Trocs in north-eastern Spain:

The problem with that R1b from Spain is that it tests negative on P297 mutation, which means that this guy was NOT ancestor of great majority of modern European R1b (which is P297+). On the other hand, hunter-gatherer from Samara (6th millenium BC) tests positive on this mutation.

Here is a map of types of Neolithic and Mesolithic Y-DNA discovered in Europe to date:

http://s1.postimg.org/hhctxkrtb/Neolithic.png

Proto-Shaman

02-14-2015, 11:00 AM

But how does Klyosov know that R1b were Non-IE speakers ??? This is just an assumption - based on what?
Based on agglutinative grammar which was brought together with R1b into Europe at those times.

Just because they did not find R1a in 7 Samara burials (very localized), doesn't mean they were not there.

We have 9 x R1a in Andronovo (which is descended from Yamna) and 4 x R1a in Corded Ware (also descended from Yamna).

So logically there should be some R1a among Yamnaya as well, just not among those 7 x R1b from Samara.
I can only agree with that, since Andronovo and Yamna from the archaeological perspective must be related. We have to wait until newer graves are excavated or y-dna analyses for found graves are finished. Are there even other graves whose analysis remain unfinished?

Artek

02-16-2015, 12:01 PM

How do you know? You could say the same about R1b, given that it was discovered in Spain:

From the new paper, about this individual in Els Trocs, north-eastern Spain (pretty close to the Basques):

Here (page 76 out of 172): http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf

This R1b is unlikely to be ancestral to Basque one, because if two independent R1b populations (Eastern and Western) have lived separated at more than 5000 B.C., it would've been visible at age of clades and phylogeny. But it's not. Unfortunately, Western Yamnayans weren't tested.

Artek

03-01-2015, 09:14 AM

UPDATE

Sample (#44591, Szumowski), previously predicted to be some kind of Y2395 but not confirmed by Y2395 SNP testing( and still possessing significant y-str differences from other Y2395, though also some similarities on Y111 panel), ordered a BigY. And results were quite...unexpected. It turned to be: PF6161+!!, PF7525+, Z2912+, Z2913+, M458-!!, FG1245-.

So now, we have an early split before M458 and the whole macro-branch is going to be renamed(for now as PF6155)! (like previously in case of Z284).

http://oi59.tinypic.com/98sk6w.jpg

The split looks like this:

https://scontent-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/10869384_10206009740146377_948558418330392258_o.jp g

Peterski

03-03-2015, 01:25 PM

Among Slavic and Baltic populations, when it comes to people with haplogroup R1a, two major clades dominate - Z280 and M458.

The age of these two clades is:

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/

Z280:

Time when mutation emerged (in one male) - ca. 5000 years ago (95% probability that in period 5600 - 4400 y.a.).
Time of the most recent common ancestor - ca. 4800 years ago (95% probability that in period 5400 - 4200 y.a.).

M458:

Time when mutation emerged (in one male) - ca. 5000 lat temu (95% probability that in period 5600 - 4400 y.a.).
Time of the most recent common ancestor - ok. 4500 lat temu (95% probability that in period 5400 - 4200 y.a.).

=================================================

Distribution of percentage shares of these clades within all of R1a forms an interesting continuum (but also a clinal distribution in some areas).

If individuals with R1a haplogroup in each population = 100%, then respective shares of Z280 and M458 within that R1a are:

Population (R1a Z280 / R1a M458 / other clades of R1a) - according to Underhill 2014 (+ Ukrainians from Lviv & Lithuanians from another source):

WeS = Western Slavs
SoS = Southern Slavs
EaS = Eastern Slavs
Balt = Balts

[WeS] Czechs-----------------------------(20,2 / 79,8 / 0,0)
[WeS] Czechs Utah------------------------(19,9 / 70,0 / 10,1)
[SoS] Croatia interior-----------------------(32,0 / 68,0 / 0,0)
[WeS] Poland------------------------------(42,0 / 58,0 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Cherkassy-----------------(46,9 / 53,1 / 0,0)
[WeS] Poland (another source)--------------(51,7 / 48,3 / 0,0)
[WeS] Slovakia-----------------------------(52,1 / 46,2 / 1,7)
[WeS] Poles Wroclaw-----------------------(56,8 / 43,2 / 0,0)
[SoS] Bulgaria------------------------------(51,2 / 42,0 / 6,8)
[EaS] Ukrainians Lviv------------------------(58,2 / 41,8 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Ivano-Frankivsk-------------(60,0 / 40,0 / 0,0)
[EaS] Belarusians Brest----------------------(61,4 / 38,6 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Kostroma--------------------(62,6 / 37,4 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Donetsk--------------------(67,4 / 30,4 / 2,2)
[EaS] Belarusians (another source)-----------(69,7 / 30,3 / 0,0)
[SoS] Macedonians--------------------------(72,7 / 27,3 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Pskov------------------------(72,6 / 25,8 / 1,6)
[EaS] Russians Oryol-------------------------(76,4 / 23,6 / 0,0)
[SoS] Serbia--------------------------------(64,9 / 23,2 / 11,9)
[EaS] Belarusians (Underhill)------------------(76,8 / 23,2 / 0,0)
[SoS] Bosnia--------------------------------(80,2 / 19,8 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians (another source)--------------(80,8 / 19,2 / 0,0)
[EaS] Russians Belgorod----------------------(81,2 / 18,8 / 0,0)
[Balt] Lithuanians----------------------------(81,8 / 18,2 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Khmilnyk---------------------(84,3 / 15,7 / 0,0)
[EaS] Ukrainians Akkerman--------------------(88,4 / 11,6 / 0,0)
[SoS] Slovenia-------------------------------(83,9 / 10,7 / 5,4)
[SoS] Herzegovina----------------------------(93,8 / 6,2 / 0,0)

Chart: http://s17.postimg.org/8i4qm1een/R1a_chart.png

http://s17.postimg.org/8i4qm1een/R1a_chart.png

=======================================

And here a map showing the percentage share of M458 among total R1a (based on data from Underhill, data from the other source not included):

Boundaries of frequency areas are approximate / conventional (since Underhill collected samples mostly from specific cities or groups of locations):

http://s2.postimg.org/y56xlyfex/M458.png

Peterski

03-03-2015, 02:03 PM

And graph:

http://s29.postimg.org/n8pi0uko7/Graph_Clades.png

http://s29.postimg.org/n8pi0uko7/Graph_Clades.png

Artek

04-14-2015, 01:29 PM

RECENT RARE CASES

-Tatar person tested L448+, therefore we put him into cathegory Z284>S4458>S5301>S5153>L448. An unindentified Norseman must've really got lost and he probably got crazy about Tatar women.

- First Czech person was found to be Z284, L448 subbranch according to his Y-STRs. We will try to cinvince him to test L448.

- Latvian person (not Latvian-German) tested L664 and joined with Big Y already done. He diverged earlier than many of L664 participants who have done Big Y and is ancestral to the most frequent subbranch of L664, an YP282.

- R1a* person of Biritsh ancestry has joined with Big Y under process. His Big Y will be the most important of any NGS-tested R1a person so far.

Artek

04-14-2015, 01:31 PM

Big Y Orders during last 30 days :(as of 5th of April, I will make next such post at 5th of May)

- Z280+ (Z92- CTS1211-) from Ukraine (!!!)
- unknown subbranch under M417 from Italy
- Z280>CTS1211>YP343* from Slovakia
- L664>(S3478?)>S2894>YP282-C from England
- Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613 Poland(?)
- Z645>Z93>Z94 from Kuwait
- Z282+ (Y2395-, Z280-) from Poland (!!!)
- 2 x Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>L1280>YP611 from Serbia
- M458>PF7521>CTS11962>L1029 Poland(?)
- Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y2613>Y2609>Y2608>YP613 from Austria
- unknown subbranch under L664 from Scotland
- Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402-B from Germany
- Z280>CTS1211-B from Germany
- 2 x Z284>S4458>S5301>S5153>L448>YP355>YP609>YP618>YP984>PF4661 from England
- Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2122>F1345>CTS6>Y2619 from Germany
- Z284>Z287>CTS8401>Z281-A from Norway

Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik

04-16-2015, 05:42 PM

Here is a question I have. Is it definitely true that if a German from Pomerania has R1a Y-DNA his/her ancestors were definitely Germanized Slavs? Or if any European person has R1a Y-DNA does it mean their ancestors are definitely Slavs?

Also, I wanted to ask, are all people with R1a Y-DNA closely related to each other? Like say a German has R1a Y-DNA does that mean they are closely related to Poles genetically?

Artek

04-17-2015, 08:27 AM

Here is a question I have. Is it definitely true that if a German from Pomerania has R1a Y-DNA his/her ancestors were definitely Germanized Slavs? Or if any European person has R1a Y-DNA does it mean their ancestors are definitely Slavs?
It depends on a subset of R1a.

Commercially tested Germans from Pomerania have various subclades of R1a, some of them easily can be called Slavic, like CTS11962 and L260 under M458 and some Z280 types which aren't from Balts or ambiguous. But among Germans from Pomerania also other clades were found, like L664 that can be called Germanic and Z284 that is particularly Norse. Other clades can pop-up as well, like Z93 that is connected with Indo-Iranians (although not in every case, it seems) or some M417- that can be traced with genesis as far back as to mesolithic/paleolithic.

Being R1a is not a designation of a Slav, Slavs were just about ~50-60% of R1a if I had to guess the percentage. See how much of R1b have Irish, Bretons or Basques, for instance. And still, no one should call R1b only as Celtic or Basque.

Also, I wanted to ask, are all people with R1a Y-DNA closely related to each other? Like say a German has R1a Y-DNA does that mean they are closely related to Poles genetically?

R1a is just a haplogroup. We can rather say, in such case, "paternally related at some point". But what really matters is an autosomal genetics, a mix of genes you receive from your parents and (indirectly) from their parents. R1b or I1 German can be closer to Poles than an R1a German, despite the latter case being paternally more related to the half of Polish males.

Dr. Robotnik the Subbotnik

04-17-2015, 03:41 PM

It depends on a subset of R1a.

Commercially tested Germans from Pomerania have various subclades of R1a, some of them easily can be called Slavic, like CTS11962 and L260 under M458 and some Z280 types which aren't from Balts or ambiguous. But among Germans from Pomerania also other clades were found, like L664 that can be called Germanic and Z284 that is particularly Norse. Other clades can pop-up as well, like Z93 that is connected with Indo-Iranians (although not in every case, it seems) or some M417- that can be traced with genesis as far back as to mesolithic/paleolithic.

Being R1a is not a designation of a Slav, Slavs were just about ~50-60% of R1a if I had to guess the percentage. See how much of R1b have Irish, Bretons or Basques, for instance. And still, no one should call R1b only as Celtic or Basque.

R1a is just a haplogroup. We can rather say, in such case, "paternally related at some point". But what really matters is an autosomal genetics, a mix of genes you receive from your parents and (indirectly) from their parents. R1b or I1 German can be closer to Poles than an R1a German, despite the latter case being paternally more related to the half of Polish males.

Thank you, I wish I knew the Y-DNA of my Pomeranian ancestors, it would be interesting to know. I was told they were Polish, I think they are Kashubs. For instance one of the names in my family history, Grunmann (literally Greenman) comes from Zelinsky. Could be Kashub or other Polish.

Artek

04-22-2015, 08:35 AM

Thank you, I wish I knew the Y-DNA of my Pomeranian ancestors, it would be interesting to know. I was told they were Polish, I think they are Kashubs. For instance one of the names in my family history, Grunmann (literally Greenman) comes from Zelinsky. Could be Kashub or other Polish.
Zeliński is just a form of a surname Zieliński(probably written by a German clerk or someone else who ate an "i"), which is very common anywhere :)

Artek

06-14-2015, 12:32 PM

List made of upgraded y-SNP R1a data. It will hopefully change, after more thorough insight by Yfull.

1. Sintashta, Bulanovo, Russia, 2298 BC - 2045 BC, R1a-Z645>Z93>Z94>Z2124 !!
2. Sintashta, Stepnoe VII, Russia, 2126 BC - 1896 BC, R1a-Z645>Z93(?)
3. Andronovo, Kytmanovo,Russia, 1446 BC - 1298 BC, R1a-Z645>Z93(?)
4. Karasuk, Sabinka II, Russia, 1416 BC - 1268 BC, R1a1a1 (M417) Z93(?)
5. Meshovskaya, Kapova cave, Russia, nd, R1a1a1 (xZ283) Z93?
6. Late Bronze Age, Afontova Gora, 926 BC - 715 BC, R1a1a1 (M417) Z93(?)
7. Corded Ware, Tiefbrunn, Germany, 2880 BC - 2630 BC, R1a1a1(M417)
8. Corded Ware, Tiefbrunn, Germany, 2868 BC - 2580 BC, R1a1a1 (M417)
9. Corded Ware, Bergrheinfeldt, Germany, 2829 BC - 2465 BC, R1a1a1 (xZ647) CTS4385(?)
10. Corded Ware, Łęki Małe, Poland, 2286 BC - 2048 BC, R1a1a1 (M417)
11. Corded Ware/Battle-Axe, Viby, Sweden, 2621 BC - 2472 BC, R1a1a1 (M417)
12. Nordic Late Neolithic, Marbjerg, Denmark, 2191 BC - 1972 BC, R1a1a1 (M417)
13. Nordic Late Neolithic, Kyndel, Denmark, 2651 BC - 2292 BC(?), R1a1a1 (M417)
14. Late Bronze Age, Turlojiske, Lithuania, 908 BC -485 BC, R1a1a1 (M417)
15. Iron Age, Sabinka 2, Russia, 396 BC - 209 BC, R1a1a1 (xZ283) Z93(?)

Artek

06-21-2015, 03:39 PM

YFull's analysis, first "batch". Published by Vladimir Tagankin on Facebook group.

RISE494. Karasuk. Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123>Y934>YP520+
RISE392. Stepnoe VII. Sintashta, Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123>Y877+ Y939-
RISE512. Kytmanovo. Andronovo Z2121+ (level Z2124) Y877-
RISE386. Bulanovo. Sintashta Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>S23592>YP1456 (YP1460 level YP1456)
Kapova cave.

And the controversial one.
RISE525. Meshovskaya. Z283(-? false negative)>Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>Y111 62 (Y11175 level Y11162)
Y11175+ Y11171-
This Meshovskaya sample wasn't dated. Maybe that was a Slavic skeleton from that cave examined by chance? Someone should check it more carefully.

Artek

06-23-2015, 11:09 AM

Time for first ancient Z284 and L664 !!

RISE446 (Bergrheinfeld/Corded Ware/Germany) M417>CTS4385>L664>S3477 (S3479+ S3490- YP233-)

RISE61 (Kyndel/Nordic LN/Denmark) 2851 BC - 2492 BC
R-Z281 Z282>Z284>Z287>CTS8401>Z281
(Z281+ S6752- S3238- S3225-)

LecomtsevAlexander

06-23-2015, 06:48 PM

please delete my post . I just wanted to comment about the scheme on the map of Z 92 Balts old and outdated because it did not have my subclades cts9551 taken into account. and the post went to somewhere in the not much.

katniss

09-20-2016, 06:04 PM

Among Slavic and Baltic populations, when it comes to people with haplogroup R1a, two major clades dominate - Z280 and M458.

[SoS] Croatia interior-----------------------(32,0 / 68,0 / 0,0)

[SoS] Serbia--------------------------------(64,9 / 23,2 / 11,9)

[SoS] Bosnia--------------------------------(80,2 / 19,8 / 0,0)

[SoS] Slovenia-------------------------------(83,9 / 10,7 / 5,4)

[SoS] Herzegovina----------------------------(93,8 / 6,2 / 0,0)

Underhill is very unreliable. Most of the Croatian R1a is M558, not R1a M458, judging by other studies and Croats in public access databasis.
Most of Croatian R1a M458 is from island Cres with very atypical genetics comparing to the rest of Croatia.
Genetic heritage of Croatians in the Southeastern European gene pool—Y chromosome analysis of the Croatian continental and Island population (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27279290)

There are many regional differences judging by these results. Compare Dubrovnik DBK (Dubrovnik) and CRES for instance.
http://s20.postimg.org/4e7rw0wkt/y_NJfqph.png