Napoleon

[Hussar]

Recently i discussed about an historical phase of European history. Since i know how deep can be the GAP between different historiographic schools (on politic, national base), then i'd like to ask a simple question to the members of Apricity.

Obvioulsly a real, deep answer would be too complex for an internet social forum (nobody spends more than 5 minutes to write a post), but i'd like a powerfull synthesis of your feelings on the subject.

Your historical judment on NAPOLEON (and everything connected to his politics etc.)


It's to satisfy a personal curiousity.........

[Loddfafner]

Napoleon's legal innovations simplified European law. These were kept in place even after he was run out of the lands he conquered.

Napoleon destroyed numerous major European monuments. On the other hand he forced many other monarchs to become more accountable to their subjects.

He belongs in the same historical box of disruptive figures as Hitler. Or vice versa.

[Hussar]

..............He belongs in the same historical box of disruptive figures as Hitler. Or vice versa.

hmmmm.......this is the most inteesting part.


Are you american, right ?

[Crux]

Napoleon did a lot for the Slovenians and we would most likely not be where we are if it wasn't for him. Our nation thinks very highly of Napoleon as do I. Ilirija vstani : ) !

[Hussar]

Napoleon did a lot for the Slovenians and we would most likely not be where we are if it wasn't for him. Our nation thinks very highly of Napoleon as do I. Ilirija vstani : ) !


What he did for you ?

[Wulfhere]

Napoleon tried to invade the British Isles and impose his French tyranny on us. He was a vile, jumped-up little prick.

[Gooding]

Napoleon did much to stabilize Europe, but the little bastard sold Louisiana..
I'm pretty ambivalent about this Corsican general.

[Wulfhere]

Q. Can Napoleon truly be considered to be a Frenchman?
A. Course 'e can!

[Hussar]

Q. Can Napoleon truly be considered to be a Frenchman?
A. Course 'e can!


Astonishing. Your culture and intelligence.

[antonio]

I think that Napoleon was good for ones and bad for others. In Spain were still paying with mental-underdevelopment our angry refusal to be converted in a highly privileged appendix of France...just for defending the throne rights of the Spanish Borbons, French dinasty founded by a nephew of Louis XIV which had ruled our kingdom from the start of times: a century before, to be more specific. :confused:

The crimes commited by his soldiers where at a high percentage direct consequence of the savage and ruthless undeclared war (guerrilla) mantained by specific "talibanic" sectors of Spanish population.

And if you want to know for my personal and subjective opinion: I admire him and lament how far away are current EU burocrats from his undeniable grandeur.

[Crux]

What he did for you ?

For the first time the Slovenian language was used in schools as the first language (it was German before then), they founded the first university and established a modern government and civil legislation. Ljubljana also got it's first botanical garden ;). There were downsides ofcourse, like high taxes because of the war but really after the end of the Illyrian provinces no one could imagine living without the change brought by the French revolution.

[Osweo]

An old English view:

The Bonny Bunch of Roses [trad.]

This song of history is a dramatic dialogue between Napoleon Bonaparte's son, the Duke of Reichstadt (1811-1832), and his widow, the Empress Mary Louise after Napoleon's death. Don't be like your father, she tells her son.

A.L. Lloyd recorded this song in 1956 for his Riverside LP English Street Songs. He commented in the album's sleeve notes:

This ballad was an extremely popular broadside in the earlier days of the 19th century all over England, Scotland and Ireland. Note the unmistakeable air of sympathy for the downfall of the “bold Corsican.” Perhaps this ballad began its life in Ireland; be that as it may, it certainly was an important item in the repertoire of native English street singers, and the back-street audiences found nothing amiss in the singers' attitude to the enemy of their country. Perhaps, like Beethoven, the English commoners had once regarded Napoleon as a possible liberator from oppression and misery, and were sad rather than angry when this turned out to be an error. Some say the bunch of roses symbolises England, Scotland and Ireland; others that it is a metaphor for the red-coated British Army.

Nic Jones sang The Bonny Bunch of Roses on his eponymous second album, Nic Jones, just after the track Napoleon's Lamentation. He commented in the album notes:

The text of this ballad appears to have caused some confusion among folk-song enthusiasts, according to Frank Purslow in his note to the song (Marrowbones, p. 103). He mentions James Reeves particularly as having commented on it. He goes on to say that the song is an imaginary conversation between Napoleon's young son and Marie Louise, second wife of Napoleon. This idea makes the song much clearer. The son threatens to “raise a terrible army” and to assert his power. They talk of Napoleon's Moscow campaign and Marie Louise warns her son that he'll follow Napoleon to the grave. Then, in the last verse, the son states that he is dying. This last verse becomes plainer if we understand that the son died at twenty-one of a weakness in the chest aggravated by severe, self-imposed physical exercise.

The tune in Marrowbones is a version of The Rose Tree, although I have used the more common tune, a variant of The Bonny Bunch of Roses.

People have suggested that “roses” is a corruption of “rushes”, but either way Cecil Sharp says, “Surely our country has never been called by a prettier name then the bonny bunch of roses-o.”

Fairport Convention recorded The Bonny Bunch of Roses for the first time in May 1970 at Gold Star Studios, Hollywod. This recording was published much later on their anthology Meet on the Ledge: The Classic Years (1967-1975). A BBC Radio “Folk on One” broadcast from July 26, 10970 is on Fairport's 4 CD set Live at the BBC. Their best know version is the title track of Fairport Convention's first LP for the Vertigo label, The Bonny Bunch of Roses. Another live version, from La Trobe University, Melbourne, Australia on June 23, 1977 found its way on the 4 CD anthology Fairport UnConventional.

Shirley and Dolly Collins sang The Bonny Bunch of Roses at the Folk Festival Sidmouth 1979. This track was incuded on their CD Shapshots.

Lyrics
Nic Jones sings

By the margin of the ocean,
One pleasant evening in the month of June,
The pleasant-singing blackbird
His charming notes did tune.
Was there I spied a woman
All in great grief and woe,
Conversing with young Bonaparte
Concerning the Bonny Bunch of Roses-O

And then up and spoke the young Napoleon
And he took hold of his mother's hand,
“Oh mother dear, be patient
And soon I will take command.
I'll raise a terrible army
And through tremendous danger go.
And in spite of all of the universe
I'll conquer the Bonny Bunch of Roses-O.”

“And when first you saw the Great Napoleon,
You fell down on your bended knee
And you asked your father's life of him
And he's granted it most manfully.
'Twas then he took an army
And o'er the frozen alps did go;
And he said, “I'll conquer Moscow
And come back for the Bonny Bunch of Roses-O.”

“And so he's took three hundred thousand fighting men
And kings likewise for to join his throng.
He was as well provided for
Enough to take the whole world alone.
But when he came to Moscow
All o'erpowered by driving snow
And Moscow was a-blazing,
He lost the Bonny Bunch of Roses-O.“

“Oh my son, don't speak so venturesome,
For England she has a heart of oak,
And England, and Ireland, and Scotland,
Their unity has never been broke.
And so my son, think on, your father
In St Helena, his body it lies low,
And you will follow after,
Beware of the Bonny Bunch of Roses-O.”

“And it's goodbye to my mother forever,
For I am on my dying bed.
Had I lived I might have been clever,
But now I bow my youthful head.
And while our bodies do moulder
And weeping willows over us do grow,
The deeds of brave Napoleon
Will sting the Bonny Bunch of Roses-O.”

By the margin of the ocean,
One pleasant evening in the month of June,
The pleasant-singing blackbird
His charming notes did tune.
Was there I spied a female
All in great grief and woe,
Conversing with young Bonaparte
Concerning the Bonny Bunch of Roses-O

http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~zierke/lloyd/songs/thebonnybunchofroses.html

Napoleon...
A fascinating window into the Possible. A demonstration of the ability of the Body Politic to right itself after a seemingly fatal blow, and yet of Fate's fickleness at abandoning those who've served their purpose.

Tolstoy's big fat essay at the end of War and Peace is worth a read on this matter, and wider ones it touches. :)

(Oops, my 'five minutes' are up! ;))

[Nodens]

Bearer of the True Legacy of Rome, and like all men of greatness, above such plebeian distinctions of 'hero', 'tyrant' or 'patriot'.

[Amapola]

I think that Napoleon was good for ones and bad for others. In Spain were still paying with mental-underdevelopment our angry refusal to be converted in a highly privileged appendix of France...just for defending the throne rights of the Spanish Borbons, French dinasty founded by a nephew of Louis XIV which had ruled our kingdom from the start of times: a century before, to be more specific. :confused:

The crimes commited by his soldiers where at a high percentage direct consequence of the savage and ruthless undeclared war (guerrilla) mantained by specific "talibanic" sectors of Spanish population.

And if you want to know for my personal and subjective opinion: I admire him and lament how far away are current EU burocrats from his undeniable grandeur.

:eek:

"Y suenan patrias canciones
cantando santos deberes;
y van roncas las mujeres
ampujando los cañones;
al pie de libres pendones
el grito de patria zumba
y el rudo cañón retumba,
y el vil invasor se aterra,
y al suelo le falta tierra
para cubrir tanta tumba!

:cry2

Thanks to Napoleon, the Spaniards re-discovered themselves, created a Junta Suprema and invented the modern war of guerrillas. Years of blood was the price for Independence but it was necessary.

The war in Spain against Napoleon was born in extremey lamentable circumstances: not that a foreign army had invaded Spain but the very Spanish Crown had given the country to the invader. Without Kingdom, Queen, goverment, even without an army, it was finally the people who defended their national dignity.

The invincible defeated by squads of insurrectionary proletarians

:laugh:

[Hussar]

Hmmm interesting answers (to begin).


You know, the fact is that although i studied story for a lot of time at an advanced level (doctoral) , i've never done a REAL carefull comparison between the continental European historiography and the anglo-saxon one (i'm almost totally focused on the Euro-continental one).


I was shocked to read that NAPOLEON is considered like Hitler by some fractions of Anglo-saxon historiography. Take in mind that on italian hisory books Napoleon is almost an hero.......... or at least a positive historical leader.

[Osweo]

Odd that the 'glamour' of Napoleon had less resonance here, indeed. It certainly had an impact in Russia, that other country I know well. I suppose Tolstoy is to thank for that, and Tsar Aleksandr I himself, who was charmed by some of the ideas Napoleon stirred in Europe.

[antonio]

Thanks to Napoleon, the Spaniards re-discovered themselves,

I'm more inclined to think that what they re-discovered was the funest delusion of their invincibility, so, in 1898, they fought a war against a brand new superpower with none chance of victory, just to subsequently get severely depressed about our decacency, at least the infamous 98-generation writers.

created a Junta Suprema and invented the modern war of guerrillas.

Guerrillas is not modern war, is simply to fight war in civilian disguise, how unfair! Thanks God our brave tribes don't defeated Rome and its civilization in a similar occasion, two times would be too much!

Years of blood was the price for Independence but it was necessary.

Who cares if nowadays we're not independent at all!

The war in Spain against Napoleon was born in extremey lamentable circumstances: not that a foreign army had invaded Spain but the very Spanish Crown had given the country to the invader.

Borbons know very well that French rulers would do things equal if not better so I presume they do feel no remorse... and, after all, resignation it was the better way to save their own skin.

Without Kingdom, Queen, goverment, even without an army, it was finally the people who defended their national dignity.

Don't forget that richmen and cultural elites counted an important percentage of Afrancesados among them.

The invincible defeated by squads of insurrectionary proletarians

France is not China. Simply they have no sufficent men and allies to combat in two countries as large as Russia and Spain concurrently. But how can ever suspect that issue? Frenchs and Napoleon were not stupids: Spain resistance cought them by surprise: they could not imagine even in their worse nightmares that Spanish people would stand up so violently against the Pax Romana and the Progress were to implement in our convulse land. And the prove I can give to you was the fact that, not much years ago, even while maintaining the Independence War rethorical, France resume its role as first-hand referent for Spain of progress and culture. And don't forget that my label of IberoAquitanian is not cheap-talk: it's based in deep ancient links (ethnical, linguistic, cultural ones...) almost vanished on absurd rethoricals like the one raised up on this historical circunstances.

:thumbs up


Pd. Please read some of the published memories of French soldiers like Sebastien Blaze (balance would be desirable but is not possible because their antagonists did not indulge in such civilized costumes.

[Wulfhere]

Hmmm interesting answers (to begin).


You know, the fact is that although i studied story for a lot of time at an advanced level (doctoral) , i've never done a REAL carefull comparison between the continental European historiography and the anglo-saxon one (i'm almost totally focused on the Euro-continental one).


I was shocked to read that NAPOLEON is considered like Hitler by some fractions of Anglo-saxon historiography. Take in mind that on italian hisory books Napoleon is almost an hero.......... or at least a positive historical leader.

Why would you consider it odd that the Anglo-Saxons detest any foreigner who tries to take away their liberty? Napoleon is indeed the Hitler of his time, and both are reviled.

[Murphy]

Heh. He was a bastard. Though I am a fan of the Napoleonic era.

Regards,
The Papist.

[Amapola]

I'm more inclined to think that what they re-discovered was the funest delusion of their invincibility, so, in 1898, they fought a war against a brand new superpower with none chance of victory, just to subsequently get severely depressed about our decacency, at least the infamous 98-generation writers.

created a Junta Suprema and invented the modern war of guerrillas.

Guerrillas is not modern war, is simply to fight war in civilian disguise, how unfair! Thanks God our brave tribes don't defeated Rome and its civilization in a similar occasion, two times would be too much!

Years of blood was the price for Independence but it was necessary.

Who cares if nowadays we're not independent at all!

The war in Spain against Napoleon was born in extremey lamentable circumstances: not that a foreign army had invaded Spain but the very Spanish Crown had given the country to the invader.

Borbons know very well that French rulers would do things equal if not better so I presume they do feel no remorse... and, after all, resignation it was the better way to save their own skin.

Without Kingdom, Queen, goverment, even without an army, it was finally the people who defended their national dignity.

Don't forget that richmen and cultural elites counted an important percentage of Afrancesados among them.

The invincible defeated by squads of insurrectionary proletarians

France is not China. Simply they have no sufficent men and allies to combat in two countries as large as Russia and Spain concurrently. But how can ever suspect that issue? Frenchs and Napoleon were not stupids: Spain resistance cought them by surprise: they could not imagine even in their worse nightmares that Spanish people would stand up so violently against the Pax Romana and the Progress were to implement in our convulse land. And the prove I can give to you was the fact that, not much years ago, even while maintaining the Independence War rethorical, France resume its role as first-hand referent for Spain of progress and culture. And don't forget that my label of IberoAquitanian is not cheap-talk: it's based in deep ancient links (ethnical, linguistic, cultural ones...) almost vanished on absurd rethoricals like the one raised up on this historical circunstances.

Spain was being ruled by an incompetent, Carlos IV de Borbón, although the powerful man of the government was Manuel Godoy, un guardia de corps raised to the glory by court intrigues. Godoy agrees to form an alliance with Napoleon and offers him our ships OUT OF FEAR, and hence the terrible Trafalgar defeat (in which we should have never been involved). Godoy should have then reflected but it was to late! The very thought of Napoleon terrified him! After the Treaty of Fontainebleau, Spain was supposed to let the French cross Spain to Portugal, and the French SURE came across, but they didn't want to leave :D; in the following months around 65.000 soldiers of Napoleon stationed around. The French entered that way. A shame, anyway.

Many were embarrased! amongst others, the prince of Asturias... the country was a real disaster area, bankrup.

Progress? or not... the occupation was humiliating and people were hungry...appart from very sure of their natural idea of independence. THOSE PEOPLE WERE NOT the same like 200 years ago... they had nothing to do with the Spain of friars and gentlemen, that either founded a convent in Japan or broke into a fortress in Holand. The Spaniards at the Napoleon's time were collapsed. But they were still proud "en cuanto le hurguen un tantico" like Pujitos said. But especially, those people were fed up to the back teeth.

Carlos IV was obliged to transfer the Crown to Napoleon, who secured it for his brother, José. That "cannon" gives the measure of where the Spanish dignity had fallen. By the way! the first initiative of the Bonapartes is even praiseworthy: a sort of constitution, the statues of Bayona, which is even exemplary. The plan of Bayona is not revolutionary: it makes a denominational country of Spain - Catholic; the representation of las cortes is divided in thirds per stratums and forms of reform are introduced, just like that "the letters/theory", is unquestionable. It is what the Borbones should have done many years before, and it's understood that a good portion of the Spanish erudites, desperate because of our Kings' indignity, jumped on Napoleón's bandwagon. But there was an objection: the Crown passed to a foreign country that had INVADED Spain, and that was intolerable for people that were fed up to the back teeth :D




Pd. Please read some of the published memories of French soldiers like Sebastien Blaze (balance would be desirable but is not possible because their antagonists did not indulge in such civilized costumes.
Thanks for the suggestion, amigo, I will :thumbs up

[antonio]

Just a final argument: you talk on Napoleon as a enemy of Spanish independence, and it's OK. But, what about Louis XIV supporting the rights of his nephew (the future Felipe V) to the Spanish throne? Did he really want an independent country from French policies and interests? What's the difference between Louis-Felipe and Napoleon-José? Royal legitimacy vs lake of it? So my conclusion is that main argument against Pepe has a monarquic nature more than a patriotic one.

With my best regards, Antonio.

[Tyrrhenoi]

Hmmm interesting answers (to begin).


You know, the fact is that although i studied story for a lot of time at an advanced level (doctoral) , i've never done a REAL carefull comparison between the continental European historiography and the anglo-saxon one (i'm almost totally focused on the Euro-continental one).


I was shocked to read that NAPOLEON is considered like Hitler by some fractions of Anglo-saxon historiography. Take in mind that on italian hisory books Napoleon is almost an hero.......... or at least a positive historical leader.

The reason why the Italians love him?

1. Corsica whas once part of Italy, his parents were of Italian origine. He used this as an excuse to be not inlisted als a frensh conscript.(before his military career).

2. He kicked the Austrians out of nord Italy ;)

[curiousman]

Take in mind that on italian hisory books Napoleon is almost an hero.......... or at least a positive historical leader.


This happens because we are brainwashed. Napoleon was really a disgrace for Italy. The little parvenu was considered a hero only by Jacobin intellectuals and masonic bourgeois (and by the Jews BTW). Common people and of course aristocracy and clergy hated him.

[Wulfhere]

Q. Can Napoleon really be regarded as a Frenchman?
A. Corsican.

[LouisFerdinand]

Once a week Napoleon's librarian would be summoned to attend him with recently published books for him to glance through.
Napoleon would throw on the ground those books which did not interest him. He would put aside one or two books to read.

[MinervaItalica]

Take in mind that on italian hisory books Napoleon is almost an hero.......... or at least a positive historical leader.

:rotfl: You cant be serious...

Go say that to the Italians from Veneto or Liguria...

[LouisFerdinand]

In 1804, Napoleon I became Emperor of the French.
The bee was chosen so as to link the new imperial Bonaparte dynasty to the very origins of France.
Golden bees were discovered in 1653 in the tomb of Childrec I, founder in 457 of the Merovingian dynasty.
Bees covered the surface of the imperial cloaks of both Emperor Napoleon and Empress Josephine at their coronation ceremony.

[LouisFerdinand]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWZcD-tGwU0

[Melki]

-He is remembered in France as a great hero
-restored order after the chaos of the Revolution
-gave France a new legal code
-by accepting to conquer and unite Europe, he fostered the ideal of the European Union.
-But he also left a legacy of death and destruction on the grandest scale.

http://zupimages.net/up/17/20/btvd.jpg (http://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=17/20/btvd.jpg)