I2a in Greece from Slavic Slave Trade

[JQP4545]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Khanate

It says here that 2 million people from the Ukraine were shipped as slaves to the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East:


For a long time, until the early 18th century, the khanate maintained a massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East, exporting about 2 million slaves from Russia and Poland-Lithuania over the period 1500–1700.[8] Caffa was one of the best known and significant trading ports and slave markets.[9] In 1769 a last major Tatar raid saw the capture of 20,000 Russian and Ruthenian slaves.

Could that explain the presence of I2a Dinaric-North in Greece?

[Faklon]

That would effect more Anatolia than Greece,no?

Plus I googled that and seems bigger in West-Balkans than Ukraine,maybe it explains the spots in Turkey.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

[JQP4545]

That would effect more Anatolia than Greece,no?

Plus I googled that and seems bigger in West-Balkans than Ukraine,maybe it explains the spots in Turkey.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

The one in the Balkans is generally Dinaric-South, but the one in Greeks is generally Dinaric-North (Ukraine, Poland, Romania). The Ottomans controlled Greece too, I thought that might explain the incidence of I2 Dinaric-North around Greece and Western Turkey.

[Faklon]

The one in the Balkans is generally Dinaric-South, but the one in Greeks is generally Dinaric-North (Ukraine, Poland, Romania). The Ottomans controlled Greece too, I thought that might explain the incidence of I2 Dinaric-North around Greece and Western Turkey.

I don't know much about it,what's the one in Eastern Anatolia?

Is the Balkanic fully south?

[JQP4545]

I don't know much about it,what's the one in Eastern Anatolia?

Is the Balkanic fully south?

Dinaric South is common in Croatia, Serbia, and Bosnia. Dinaric North is found in Ukraine, Moldova, Southern Poland, and Romania. I'm not entirely sure about the Kurdish version of I2... Greeks tend to be Dinaric-North.

[JQP4545]

Here is a quote from a forum:


They are trying to divide I2a2 (Dinaric) into Dinaric North and Dinaric South based not on SNP, but haplotypes.
Surprisingly, most Bulgarians and Greeks I2a are Dinaric North and have common ancestry with Ukranians and Poles, while most ex Yugoslavians are Dinaric South - see map.

http://www.igenea.com/en/forum/d/haplogroup-i2i2a1-i2a2/721

[JQP4545]

The major European languages, including English, used variations of the word "slave", in references to Slavic laborers of Byzantium.

Byzantines also enslaved Slavic peoples from the Ukraine region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_medieval_Europe#Slave_trade

[Faklon]

Dinaric South is common in Croatia, Serbia, and Bosnia. Dinaric North is found in Ukraine, Moldova, Southern Poland, and Romania. I'm not entirely sure about the Kurdish version of I2... Greeks tend to be Dinaric-North.

Maybe Varangians or Russopontics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard

[JQP4545]

Maybe Varangians or Russopontics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard

I believe that would be more I1 than I2. Plus a small number of body guards versus hundreds of thousands or millions of slaves entering first the Roman Empire and then the Ottoman empire from the Ukraine/Poland region.

[Faklon]

I believe that would be more I1 than I2. Plus a small number of body guards versus hundreds of thousands or millions of slaves entering first the Roman Empire and then the Ottoman empire from the Ukraine/Poland region.

It doesn't necesarilly have to be recent,anyway.

[blogen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Khanate
It says here that 2 million people from the Ukraine were shipped as slaves to the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East:
Could that explain the presence of I2a Dinaric-North in Greece?

This was only a small part of the Black sea slave trade. This trade started, when the ancient Greeks established their colonial cities around the Black sea coast. The three peak of this slave-trade were the late Hellenistic and Roman times, the early medieval Byzantine times and the Ottoman times. This slavetrade prospered everytime, when the Eastern Mediterranean economy was good. Slavs and Balts and sometimes Germans were the ware, Scythians, Sarmatians, Goths, Huns, Alans, Bulgarians, Magyars, Pechenegs, Mongols, Tatars were the hunters, the Greeks sometimes Turks were the middlemen.

[JQP4545]

This was only a small part of the Black sea slave trade. This trade started, when the ancient Greeks established their colonial cities around the Black sea coast. The three peak of this slave-trade were the late Hellenistic and Roman times, the early medieval Byzantine times and the Ottoman times. This slavetrade prospered everytime, when the Eastern Mediterranean economy was good. Slavs and Balts and sometimes Germans were the ware, Scythians, Sarmatians, Goths, Huns, Alans, Bulgarians, Magyars, Pechenegs, Mongols, Tatars were the hunters, the Greeks sometimes Turks were the middlemen.

So I2a probably still came from Slavic slave trade, but it began in ancient times?

[blogen]

So I2a probably still came from Slavic slave trade, but it began in ancient times?

Probably not, since the I2a is an prehistoric Balkanic line. Basically the Balkan neolithic from the Aegean neolithic to the Vinca and the Trypillian era. One of the proto-Indoeuropean markers.

[JQP4545]

http://cyprus-mail.com/2014/02/06/cypriot-dna-evident-in-over-a-dozen-populations/


The biggest DNA contributors to the Greek genome, according to the study, were Polish 30 per cent, followed by Italian, Iranian, Jordanian and Syrian.

So modern Greeks are mostly ancient Hellenes mixed with 30% Slavic ancestry, probably from thousands of years of importation of Slavic slaves.

[JQP4545]

Probably not, since the I2a is an prehistoric Balkanic line. Basically the Balkan neolithic from the Aegean neolithic to the Vinca and the Trypillian era. One of the proto-Indoeuropean markers.

I think its origins are still being debated. It is generally connected with Slavic speaking nations.

[blogen]

I think its origins are still being debated. It is generally connected with Slavic speaking nations.

No, not. I2 distribution:
http://i45.tinypic.com/m7qtt3.png

This is the range of the Balkan neolithic. The Slavs were newcomers in these lands who assimilated lot of natives.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Could that explain the presence of I2a Dinaric-North in Greece?

No. Ukraine is 50% R1a. If we assume the slave trade of Ukrainians was in equal proportion to their population, then we'd expect R1a to be a lot higher in Greece, much greater than I2a. Which we don't find.

I2a is from the slavic migrations in the Balkans.

[JQP4545]

No, not. I2 distribution:
http://i45.tinypic.com/m7qtt3.png

This is the range of the Balkan neolithic. The Slavs were newcomers in these lands who assimilated lot of natives.

So what was the Y-Haplogroup of all the Slavic slaves who were imported to Byzantine and Ottoman lands? They didn't just disappear. Also, I2a Dinaric-South is was argued to be too young not to be the results of a sudden recent expansion:


In 2010 Ken Nordtvedt argued that I2a1b1 is too young not to have been a result of a sudden expansion.[37] According to him I2a1b1 arose not earlier than 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. He has presumed this to be a consequence from the Slavic invasion of the Balkans, from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE.[38] In 2011 Nordtvedt has confirmed I2a1b1 is not older than 2,800 years.[39] In his last comments about Haplogroup I tree and the conjectured spread map, he locates the start of the I2a1b1 lineage around the middle course of the Vistula.[40]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_Croats

[Stefan_Dusan]

Also why would slaves leave behind a paternal marker? You think slaves were doing a lot of fucking of local women :laugh:

The slaves were probably mostly female, sent to Ottoman harems. Honestly this entire thread is so retarded, someone should hit you for it!

[JQP4545]

No. Ukraine is 50% R1a. If we assume the slave trade of Ukrainians was in equal proportion to their population, then we'd expect R1a to be a lot higher in Greece, much greater than I2a. Which we don't find.

I2a is from the slavic migrations in the Balkans.

I thought you said that R1a was Slavic? Why would you say that the Slavic migrations brought I2a, but that Slavic slavery did not? Slavic migrations probably don't account for much of the Greek genome as they do not speak a Slavic language. Also the version of I2a in Greece is different than the version found in South Slavs, such as Serbs and Croatians. It seems more reasonable that the gradual importation of Slavic slaves accounts for the Slavic haplogroups in Greece.

[Geni]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Khanate

It says here that 2 million people from the Ukraine were shipped as slaves to the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East:

C
Could that explain the presence of I2a Dinaric-North in Greece?

Clar ...in Greece and in Albania , not illusions, the albanians with I2a have slavic ancestry...

[JQP4545]

Also why would slaves leave behind a paternal marker? You think slaves were doing a lot of fucking of local women :laugh:

The slaves were probably mostly female, sent to Ottoman harems. Honestly this entire thread is so retarded, someone should hit you for it!

No, I don't think slaves were only female. Slavic slaves were imported to work that land in the Byzantine and Ottoman empire. Of course they can reproduce :).

[Stefan_Dusan]

I thought you said that R1a was Slavic? Why would you say that the Slavic migrations brought I2a, but that Slavic slavery did not?

Because the slavic migrations were not a representative of Ukraine as a whole. In fact Serbian migrations (the carriers of I2a2b) came as a tribe. I.e they all had the same progenitor. Meaning they all had the same male haplogroup. It just so happened this haplogroup was I2a2b (a 15% chance given Ukrainian haplogroups) but they then dominated the other slavs.

Croats for example are about 50-50 R1a and I2a2b. Anything below Croatia becomes Serbian land until Bulgaria.

[blogen]

So what was the Y-Haplogroup of all the Slavic slaves who were imported to Byzantine and Ottoman lands? They didn't just disappear.

The R1 linages.


Also, I2a Dinaric-South is was argued to be too young not to be the results of a sudden recent expansion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theories_on_the_origin_of_Croats

The Croats and Serbs were Slavonic invaders in the Balkan. Maybe their elite were Iranian origin, but genetically this was not too big difference.

[JQP4545]

Because the slavic migrations were not a representative of Ukraine as a whole. In fact Serbian migrations (the carriers of I2a2b) came as a tribe. I.e they all had the same progenitor. Meaning they all had the same male haplogroup. It just so happened this haplogroup was I2a2b (a 15% chance given Ukrainian haplogroups) but they then dominated the other slavs.

Croats for example are about 50-50 R1a and I2a2b. Anything below Croatia becomes Serbian land until Bulgaria.

I could easily adjust the thread title to, "Did R1a and I2a come to Greece from the imporation of Slavic slaves?" The point is still the same. Many slaves came to this region of the world and didn't just disappear.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I could easily adjust the thread title to, "Did R1a and I2a come to Greece from the imporation of Slavic slaves?" The point is still the same. Many slaves came to this region of the world and didn't just disappear.

You can but you'd be very wrong because the ratios of R1a and I2a don't support your theory.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Clar ...in Greece and in Albania , not illusions, the albanians with I2a have slavic ancestry...

In the very distant past. Maybe even 1500 years in the past they had at least one ancestor (their progenitor) was slavic. Kurt is an example, but overall he probably has minuscule slavic blood in him.

[JQP4545]

You can but you'd be very wrong because the ratios of R1a and I2a don't support your theory.

So which Slavic group brought I2a Dinaric-North to Greece?

[Stefan_Dusan]

So which Slavic group brought I2a Dinaric-North to Greece?

Serbs.

[JQP4545]

Serbs.

Lol, I already said Serbs are Dinaric South! Greeks are generally Dinaric North (Ukraine, Poland, etc).

[JQP4545]

Moldavians are about equal in I2a Dinaric North and R1a. Since the slaves would have come from that area I think it can be assumed that their levels of I2a would be equal to R1a.

[Insuperable]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Khanate

It says here that 2 million people from the Ukraine were shipped as slaves to the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East:

Could that explain the presence of I2a Dinaric-North in Greece?

Do you know of any maps which shows the frequency and distribution of I2-Din-North in Greece? Without this you can't claim anything. Frequency of I2-Din-North could for example be small and distributed mostly in the north of Greece which could mean it is present in Greece due to neighbouring Bulgarians.

[Casandrinos]

There is no attested presence of Slav Slaves (lol) from Ukraine in Southern Balkans during the Middle Ages.

This thread is meaningless.

[JQP4545]

There is no attested presence of Slav Slaves (lol) from Ukraine in Southern Balkans during the Middle Ages.

This thread is meaningless.

There is a great deal of evidence that there were slaves in the Byzantine empire who originated in Slavic lands.

[JQP4545]

Do you know of any maps which shows the frequency and distribution of I2-Din-North in Greece? Without this you can't claim anything. Frequency of I2-Din-North could for example be small and distributed mostly in the north of Greece which could mean it is present in Greece due to neighbouring Bulgarians.

If the majority of I2 in Greece is Din-North then the maps that show the distribution of I2a should be adequate.

[Stefan_Dusan]

According to this (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/country/206/) in Serbia + Montenegro, for every one man with I2a2b-north there is 2 with I2a2b-south. So yes, I2a2b-south is majority but not as much as you have us believe!

[Dianatomia]

There is no attested presence of Slav Slaves (lol) from Ukraine in Southern Balkans during the Middle Ages.

This thread is meaningless.

Exactly. There is no mention in Greek literature of imports of Slaves from distant areas, let alone Slavs specifically. The slaves in Greece where from Greece or adjecent regions.

Perhaps the person who makes this claim could enlighten us with historical documentation of Slav slaves in Greece before we analyse whether a certain haplogroup in Greeks comes from them.

[Casandrinos]

There is a great deal of evidence that there were slaves in the Byzantine empire who originated in Slavic lands.

Sure, but they were sold in various places of the Mediteranean.

And this topic is about slaves in Ottoman period...

[JQP4545]

According to this (http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/country/206/) in Serbia + Montenegro, for every one man with I2a2b-north there is 2 with I2a2b-south. So yes, I2a2b-south is majority but not as much as you have us believe!

I'm not trying to deceive you I was just curious about my haplogroup. This seemed like a possibility to me. If I2a came from Slavic invaders it should be majority I2a Dinaric South, just like Serbia.

[JQP4545]

Sure, but they were sold in various places of the Mediteranean.

And this topic is about slaves in Ottoman period...

And Byzantine and Roman period.

[JQP4545]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Byzantine_Empire


After the 10th century the major source of slaves, often Slavs and Bulgars[citation needed], were campaigns in the Balkans and lands north of the Black Sea. Slaves were one of the main articles that Russian traders dealt in their yearly visit to Constantinople. After the 12th century, the old Greek word "δοῦλος" (doulos) obtained a synonym in "σκλάβος" (sklavos),[4] perhaps derived from the same root as "Slav".


I2a reaches a high frequency in areas north of the Black Sea.

[SabirHunOgur]

Another idiots say the R1a1 is the slav!
Slav genes LOL. Slav exist since AD 127. Ptolemy map.
All I2 in slavic speakers are neolitic european, R1a from Kurgan and Scythians (Hungarians).

[JQP4545]

Exactly. There is no mention in Greek literature of imports of Slaves from distant areas, let alone Slavs specifically. The slaves in Greece where from Greece or adjecent regions.

Perhaps the person who makes this claim could enlighten us with historical documentation of Slav slaves in Greece before we analyse whether a certain haplogroup in Greeks comes from them.

Yes, there is mention of slavery in the Byzantine Empire ^^^.

[Casandrinos]

And Byzantine and Roman period.


Bring any evidence of Ukrainian slaves in Greece at any period and we may discuss it then :icon_fight:

[JQP4545]

Another idiots say the R1a1 is the slav!
Slav genes LOL. Slav exist since AD 127. Ptolemy map.
All I2 in slavic speakers are neolitic european, R1a from Kurgan and Scythians (Hungarians).

Lol, learn English.

[JQP4545]

Bring any evidence of Ukrainian slaves in Greece at any period and we may discuss it then :icon_fight:

It seems as though there is a great deal of evidence you just don't want to believe it.

[wvwvw]

Do you know of any maps which shows the frequency and distribution of I2-Din-North in Greece? Without this you can't claim anything. Frequency of I2-Din-North could for example be small and distributed mostly in the north of Greece which could mean it is present in Greece due to neighbouring Bulgarians.

The jewish troll can't help himself

[Stefan_Dusan]

It seems as though there is a great deal of evidence you just don't want to believe it.

lol and why slaves instead of just migrations, which was recorded? You want to be bastard of a slave? What kind of idiotic do Americans dream of!

[JQP4545]

The jewish troll can't help himself

I'm not Jewish.

[Insuperable]

If the majority of I2 in Greece is Din-North then the maps that show the distribution of I2a should be adequate.

The point is that kind of maps posted are not adequate since they are just some crude aproximations which show distribution in some parts very good, but very bad in some others tending to show fluid gradient. Let me give you two examples:
1) I2 is more present in Tosks (if I am not mistaken almost non-existent in northern Albania or Kosovo) while the map shows otherwise
2) Regarding E, it is more common in northern Croatia than southern Croatia, but this kind of maps always shows otherwise.
And I am sure there are other examples, but this are the one I am aware of. If we could have more decent maps regarding just I2-North and Greece specifically it would be great. Again it does show distribution along the northern parts.

[JQP4545]

lol and why slaves instead of just migrations, which was recorded? You want to be bastard of a slave? What kind of idiotic do Americans dream of!

Is there a problem with the truth? It just seems like the more logical explanation.

[Stefan_Dusan]

1) I2 is more present in Tosks (if I am not mistaken almost non-existent in northern Albania or Kosovo) while the map shows otherwise

From my samples, it's about 10-20% all versions (I2*, not just I2a2b) from northern Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Is there a problem with the truth? It just seems like the more logical explanation.

Oh yeah, slaves is more logical conclusion then the migrations who were well recorded. :laugh:

[JQP4545]

Oh yeah, slaves is more logical conclusion then the migrations who were well recorded. :laugh:

Sources? Where is the evidence of extensive Slavic settlement in Greece?

[Casandrinos]

It seems as though there is a great deal of evidence you just don't want to believe it.

A great deal of evidence that only you posses.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Sources? Where is the evidence of extensive Slavic settlement in Greece?

There was enough in the north to leave behind some I2a. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_speakers_of_Greek_Macedonia

This is retarded however. You are a bastard of a slave, I will call this of you from now on :laugh:

[wvwvw]

n/m

[Insuperable]

From my samples, it's about 10-20% all versions (I2*, not just I2a2b) from northern Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia.

Okay. There were studies which showed negligible existence of I2 in Kosovo and northern Albania. In any case for some reason frequency should be higher in Tosks and that would be my point. And in anycase the maps posted were based on this old or inadequate studies if you want to call them as such because of your samples so the point remains.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Okay. There were studies which showed negligible existence of I2 in Kosovo and northern Albania. In any case for some reason frequency should be higher in Tosks and that would be my point. And in anycase the maps posted were based on this old or inadequate studies if you want to call them as such necause of your samples so the point remains.

I don't know of any study on northern Albanians. Most of their tests are done in Tirana, or Kosovo from which they make inference on Albanians in north. There is one Albanian with I2a2b from north (Shkodra) and one with I2b1 from northern Macedonia. Together out of 6 Albanians (one is probably from south, the other I have is woman) is 33%. However, I'm projecting my samples are too few now.

[JQP4545]

n/m

Ah yes the "civilized people" would never mix the the "heathen Slavs". Clearly a reputable article. Anyway, what is wrong with being related to Slavs? It does not matter to me because I'm American. Europeans clearly have issues with ethnic purity and racism.

[safinator]

I don't know of any study on northern Albanians. Most of their tests are done in Tirana, or Kosovo from which they make inference on Albanians in north. There is one Albanian with I2a2b from north (Shkodra) and one with I2b1 from northern Macedonia. Together out of 6 Albanians (one is probably from south, the other I have is woman) is 33%. However, I'm projecting my samples are too few now.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/S6ZYexugWoI/AAAAAAAACVA/1I9HXeBDFQY/s1600/albanians.png

I* in general

Balanowsky map, spots above 35%(I don't like maps)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img837/4391/balanowsky2012.png

[Loki]

Complete and utter bullshit. I2a is indigenous Balkan, it has no Slavic origin. Slavs in the Balkan today who carry it got it from mixing with local people.

[JQP4545]

Complete and utter bullshit. I2a is indigenous Balkan, it has no Slavic origin. Slavs in the Balkan today who carry it got it from mixing with local people.

Ken Nordvedt disagrees.

[Stefan_Dusan]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/S6ZYexugWoI/AAAAAAAACVA/1I9HXeBDFQY/s1600/albanians.png

I* in general

Balanowsky map, spots above 35%(I don't like maps)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img837/4391/balanowsky2012.png

Ok, where did he do his samples?

[JQP4545]

Modern Greeks are descended from great scientists and philosophers, emperors, artists, but just like everyone else there were slaves. I do not see why this offends so many people, every society has slaves. It should be humbling.

[Stefan_Dusan]

If you add an Albanian with I1 from Kosovo, then this brings my sampling at 40-50% among Gheg Albanians (Albania, Macedonia, Kosovo). While I'm willing to grant my numbers are few and this will go down, something tells me 9-10% (what your study found) is not representative either. It's probably 10-20% (my prediction).

[Loki]

Ken Nordvedt disagrees.

I know. He is wrong, I have pointed it out many times before.

[safinator]

Ok, where did he do his samples?

The first it's a study of Ferri et. al, the samples were obviously Tosk and Ghegs, they might be taken from Tirana but i don't know.

No idea about Balanowsky but considering he's a scientist unlike us which are amateurs i'd trust it.

[Loki]

Modern Greeks are descended from great scientists and philosophers, emperors, artists, but just like everyone else there were slaves. I do not see why this offends so many people, every society has slaves. It should be humbling.

But your genetic theory is incorrect in this case. Nordvedt needs a brain transplant.

[Stefan_Dusan]

The first it's a study of Ferri et. al, the samples were obviously Tosk and Ghegs, they might be taken from Tirana but i don't know.

No idea about Balanowsky but considering he's a scientist unlike us which are amateurs i'd trust it.

I think projects like 23andMe give it us disposal scientists never had, a wide representation of samples from the people themselves. The scientists had limited budgets and they had to pick samples from few numbers trying to maximize, but as more and more get 23andMe tests, we will have access to better data.

[JQP4545]

But your genetic theory is incorrect in this case. Nordvedt needs a brain transplant.

Why do you speak with such certainty when it is well known that Slavic lands were a major source of slaves?

[safinator]

I think projects like 23andMe give it us disposal scientists never had, a wide representation of samples from the people themselves. The scientists had limited budgets and they had to pick samples from few numbers trying to maximize, but as more and more get 23andMe tests, we will have access to better data.

Well the first study has more than 100 samples in it, when we'l reach a sharing above 100 then we might infere our own idea about distribution but until then studies are better.

[Insuperable]

I don't know of any study on northern Albanians. Most of their tests are done in Tirana, or Kosovo from which they make inference on Albanians in north. There is one Albanian with I2a2b from north (Shkodra) and one with I2b1 from northern Macedonia. Together out of 6 Albanians (one is probably from south, the other I have is woman) is 33%. However, I'm projecting my samples are too few now.

Safinator posted them to me over PM long time ago and I remember being stated specifically how I2 is absent in Ghegs and present in Tosks. There is also map of I2 which shows I2 presence in southern Albania unlike the northen Albania and it has been posted many times here on TA. My mistake regarding the words "north" and "south" I used. The studies were done on Ghegs and Tosks I associate one with the north and other with the south.

Btw are those the very ones for which you claim they have Serbian ancestry since I noticed the long discussion about this in your thread?

[Loki]

Why do you speak with such certainty when it is well known that Slavic lands were a major source of slaves?

Greece has R1a too, you know (the commonest haplogroup among Slavs). You can use that for your story if you want. It would be more realistic.

[Insuperable]

Complete and utter bullshit. I2a is indigenous Balkan, it has no Slavic origin. Slavs in the Balkan today who carry it got it from mixing with local people.

That would be great, but why is I2-Din-N older than I2-Din-S?

[Scholarios]

Sources? Where is the evidence of extensive Slavic settlement



A) Evidence for the high density of slavic settlement
B) Byzantine population metathesis and assimilation of the Slavs

A) Evidence of Slavic Settlement

1) A little before 650 AD, Isidore of Seville wrote that during the first years of emperor Herakleios's reign (ca. 614 AD) "Sclavi Graeciam Romanis tulerunt" ("The Slavs have taken Greece from the Romans").

2) The writer of the "Miracles of Saint Demetrius" described 7th century Thessaloniki as "a Roman island in a slavic sea".

3) Willibald wrotein his biography that when he was going to Jerusalem from Sicily in 723 AD his ship stopped "ad urbem Manafasiam in Sclavenia terra" ("in the city of Monemvasia in the land of Sclavenia").



4) The 10th century Byzantine anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:

«Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»

"And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythian' (=uncivilized) Slavs"

Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.

And for Western Peloponnese in particular:

«Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»

s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.

"And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'"

5) The Emperor Contantine VI Porphyrogennetos in the «Περί Θεμάτων» wrote about the Peloponnese that:

«Ἐσθλαβώθη δὲ πᾶσα ἡ χώρα καὶ γέγονε βάρβαρος, ὅτε ὁ λοιμικὸς θάνατος πᾶσαν ἐβόσκετο τὴν οἰκουμένην, ὁπηνίκα Κωνσταντῖνος ὁ τῆς κοπρίας ἐπώνυμος σκῆπτρα τῆς τῶν Ῥωμαίων διεῖπεν ἀρχῆς.

De thematibus II (ed. Bonn. 53, 18)

"The entire country [of Peloponnese] has been colonized by Slavs and became barbarian, when the deadly plague had stroke the empire, that is when Contantine V the "Copronymos" was emperor of the Romans".

Right after he had wrote that he remembered the Peloponnesian patrician Niketas Rendakios whom the people of Constantinople had described as a "cunning Slavic face" («γαρασδοειδής όψις εσθλαβωμένη»). The term «γαρασδοειδής» is an impromptu utilization of the slavic word gorazd = "valiant, clever", which here is used with the derogatory sense of "cunning, foxy". The Slavist Phaidon Malingoudis has explained the surname Rendakios also as a slavic nickname for "administrator" (he derives it from the proto-slavic verb ręditi (ę = a proto-slavic nasalised vowel pronounced as /en/ that survives in Polish) which means to "determine, administer, set".

Example:

Serbo-Croat compound od-rediti:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/odrediti

And Czech řídit:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C5%99%C3%ADdit

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/esthlabothi-de-pasa-i-xora-kai-gegone-barbaros-garasdoeidis-opsis-esthlabomeni-2010

6) In the late 11th century, the Patriarch Nicholas Grammatikos describes the Slavic colonization of the Peloponnese in a letter to emperor Alexios Komnenos with the words:

«Έπί διακοσίοις δεκαοκτώ χρόνοις όλοις κατεσχόντων την Πελοπόννησον, και της Ρωμαϊκής αρχής αποτεμομένων, ως μηδέ πόδα βαλείν όλως δύνασθαι εν αυτή Ρωμαίον άνδρα»

"For 218 years that the Slavs have held Peloponnesus cut off from the Roman empire so that no Roman could set his foot in the region"

7) When Emperor Michael Palaiologos decided to launch the reconquista of the Peloponnese from the Franks (late 13th century), when he arrived in Mistras, the first to welcome him were the Slavs of Taygetos and the Tsakones of Parnon. The Frankish rulers of Peloponnese in the french version of the "chronicle of Morea" describe these Slavs as "un gent de voulentè et n'obeissent a nul seignor" (Livre de la Conqueste de la Princèe de l'Amorèe) "a people with guts who don't obey in no master". Plus, they write that they had conquered all of Peloponnese except the Slavs of Taygetus. We are later told that the same Slavs of Taygetus had liberated the city of Kalamata from the Franks and restored it to the Byzantine control.



In the first half of the 15th century, two sources testify that there were still Slavic speaking Slavs in the Peloponnese:

a) Mazaris wrote:

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/ta-%C2%ABanamiks-geni-en-peloponniso%C2%BB-toy-mazari-o-plithysmos-toy-moria-1415-2010

«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].

"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).

b) The Navigator Laskaris-Kananos made the circumnavigation of western europe (Gibraltar, England, Northern Sea, Baltic Sea). When he reached the city of Lübeck/Ljubice which back then was the frontier between Germanic and Slavic speech he wrote:

Schließlich ist noch als Zeugnis aus dem 15. Jahrhundert für das Fortleben der Slaven am Taygetos eine Stelle aus der Schilderung einer Reise des Laskaris Kananos nach Deutschland und den nordischen Ländern zu erwähnen, deren Entstehung von Vasiljev (Buzeskul-Festschrift S. 397 ff) in die Jahre 1412—1418 gesetzt wird. Der Grieche schildert dort auch die Umgegend von Lübeck und nennt jenes Land Σθλαβουνία. Er fügt dann eine Bemerkung über die Verwandtschaft der lübeckischen Slaven mit den Zygioten im Peloponnes hinzu: Ἀπ᾽ αὐτῆς τῆς ἐπαρχίας ὑπάρχουν οἱ Ζυγιῶται οἱ ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ· ἐπεὶ ἐκεῖσε ὑπάρχουν πλεῖστα χωρία, ἅτινα διαλέγονται τὴν γλῶσσαν τῶν Ζυγιωτῶν. Vgl Vasiljev a. a. 399. Zu dem Namen Ζυγιῶται verweist der russische Historiker auf den Namen Sigo de la Chacoigne für den Taygetos in der französischen Fassung der Chronik vor Morea, welchen er mit griech. Ζυγός = Taygetos gleichseht. Vgl. auch

"From here starts 'Slavunia' (the land of the Slavs), the 'Zygiotes' (inhabitants of Zygòs = Taygetos) must have come from here, because there many villages here that speak the same language with the Zygiotes"

[Loki]

That would be great, but why is I2-Din-N older than I2-Din-S?

We don't know everything yet. But wild speculation about it being of "Slavic" origin sounds quite fanciful and speculative - not to mention that is goes against everything we know about current haplogroup distributions.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Safinator posted them to me over PM long time ago and I remember being stated specifically how I2 is absent in Ghegs and present in Tosks. There is also map of I2 which shows I2 presence in southern Albania unlike the northen Albania and it has been posted many times here on TA. My mistake regarding the words "north" and "south" I used. The studies were done on Ghegs and Tosks I associate one with the north and other with the south.

Btw are those the very ones for which you claim they have Serbian ancestry since I noticed the long discussion about this in your thread?

The one with admitted Serbian ancestry is E-V13. The other one who plots with Serbs (actually Macedonians) but I know nothing of him is also E-V13. Strangely out of my I samples, all are solidly Albanian in plotting, which can't be said for my E-V13 samples.

[Insuperable]

We don't know everything yet. But wild speculation about it being of "Slavic" origin sounds quite fanciful and speculative - not to mention that is goes against everything we know about current haplogroup distributions.

Why would it go against everything?

[Loki]

Why would it go against everything?

Look at haplogroup distribution maps. I2 as a whole is distinctly Balkanic, plus it is rare among Slavs, except Balkan Slavs.

[Scholarios]

Look at haplogroup distribution maps. I2 as a whole is distinctly Balkanic, plus it is rare among Slavs, except Balkan Slavs.


But it's also totally absent in places we know Balkanites went before Slavs came ( Italy etc. ) it was probably carried by a Slavicized group and that's why not all Slavs have it.

[Loki]

But it's also totally absent in places we know Balkanites went before Slavs came ( Italy etc. ) it was probably carried by a Slavicized group and that's why not all Slavs have it.

Nope, if you look you will see it overlaps into central Italy .. and even into Sardinia. Slavs never went there ..

[Insuperable]

Look at haplogroup distribution maps. I2 as a whole is distinctly Balkanic, plus it is rare among Slavs, except Balkan Slavs.

Hahaha is that why LOL if everything would be that simple

[Hevo]

Look at haplogroup distribution maps. I2 as a whole is distinctly Balkanic, plus it is rare among Slavs, except Balkan Slavs.

How can you explain the 15-20% in Belarus?

[Stefan_Dusan]

lol IGENEA is funded by Slavs in the name dispute of Macedonia... The results in the maps are all fake and cherry picked.... Come on try telling us Romania has no gypsy DNA. Lol!

Ta dua :love:

[Scholarios]

Nope, if you look you will see it overlaps into central Italy .. and even into Sardinia. Slavs never went there ..
Its in central italy right across the adriatic but totally absent in the tip of the boot- And why isn't it in Apulia where Messapes from Illyria settled or Greeks in Calabria ?

I really highly doubt it was present in ancient Balkans to the degree it is now- or we'd have too see in similar numbers there in Calabria, Apulia, and Sicily. I can buy that R1a went extinct there maybe... But two huge haplogroups disappearing from Magna Graecia in a thousand years?

[JQP4545]

Go to Romania 2,800,000 gypsies neither you or Solon are wrong or correct but the maps and results you read are biased, do you serously believe no gypsy DNA in Romania?! Haplogroup I is also high in Russia and Ukriane lets not forget Russia has a population of over 100-200 million.. So them having over 20% I Haplogroup is still high even higher then Western Slavic Balkan countries all put together.

Why do you keep bringing up Gypsies? Are you trying to say that Gypsies carried I2a to Greece?

[JQP4545]

A) Evidence for the high density of slavic settlement
B) Byzantine population metathesis and assimilation of the Slavs

A) Evidence of Slavic Settlement

1) A little before 650 AD, Isidore of Seville wrote that during the first years of emperor Herakleios's reign (ca. 614 AD) "Sclavi Graeciam Romanis tulerunt" ("The Slavs have taken Greece from the Romans").

2) The writer of the "Miracles of Saint Demetrius" described 7th century Thessaloniki as "a Roman island in a slavic sea".

3) Willibald wrotein his biography that when he was going to Jerusalem from Sicily in 723 AD his ship stopped "ad urbem Manafasiam in Sclavenia terra" ("in the city of Monemvasia in the land of Sclavenia").



4) The 10th century Byzantine anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:

«Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»

"And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythian' (=uncivilized) Slavs"

Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.

And for Western Peloponnese in particular:

«Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»

s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.

"And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'"

5) The Emperor Contantine VI Porphyrogennetos in the «Περί Θεμάτων» wrote about the Peloponnese that:

«Ἐσθλαβώθη δὲ πᾶσα ἡ χώρα καὶ γέγονε βάρβαρος, ὅτε ὁ λοιμικὸς θάνατος πᾶσαν ἐβόσκετο τὴν οἰκουμένην, ὁπηνίκα Κωνσταντῖνος ὁ τῆς κοπρίας ἐπώνυμος σκῆπτρα τῆς τῶν Ῥωμαίων διεῖπεν ἀρχῆς.

De thematibus II (ed. Bonn. 53, 18)

"The entire country [of Peloponnese] has been colonized by Slavs and became barbarian, when the deadly plague had stroke the empire, that is when Contantine V the "Copronymos" was emperor of the Romans".

Right after he had wrote that he remembered the Peloponnesian patrician Niketas Rendakios whom the people of Constantinople had described as a "cunning Slavic face" («γαρασδοειδής όψις εσθλαβωμένη»). The term «γαρασδοειδής» is an impromptu utilization of the slavic word gorazd = "valiant, clever", which here is used with the derogatory sense of "cunning, foxy". The Slavist Phaidon Malingoudis has explained the surname Rendakios also as a slavic nickname for "administrator" (he derives it from the proto-slavic verb ręditi (ę = a proto-slavic nasalised vowel pronounced as /en/ that survives in Polish) which means to "determine, administer, set".

Example:

Serbo-Croat compound od-rediti:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/odrediti

And Czech řídit:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C5%99%C3%ADdit

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/esthlabothi-de-pasa-i-xora-kai-gegone-barbaros-garasdoeidis-opsis-esthlabomeni-2010

6) In the late 11th century, the Patriarch Nicholas Grammatikos describes the Slavic colonization of the Peloponnese in a letter to emperor Alexios Komnenos with the words:

«Έπί διακοσίοις δεκαοκτώ χρόνοις όλοις κατεσχόντων την Πελοπόννησον, και της Ρωμαϊκής αρχής αποτεμομένων, ως μηδέ πόδα βαλείν όλως δύνασθαι εν αυτή Ρωμαίον άνδρα»

"For 218 years that the Slavs have held Peloponnesus cut off from the Roman empire so that no Roman could set his foot in the region"

7) When Emperor Michael Palaiologos decided to launch the reconquista of the Peloponnese from the Franks (late 13th century), when he arrived in Mistras, the first to welcome him were the Slavs of Taygetos and the Tsakones of Parnon. The Frankish rulers of Peloponnese in the french version of the "chronicle of Morea" describe these Slavs as "un gent de voulentè et n'obeissent a nul seignor" (Livre de la Conqueste de la Princèe de l'Amorèe) "a people with guts who don't obey in no master". Plus, they write that they had conquered all of Peloponnese except the Slavs of Taygetus. We are later told that the same Slavs of Taygetus had liberated the city of Kalamata from the Franks and restored it to the Byzantine control.



In the first half of the 15th century, two sources testify that there were still Slavic speaking Slavs in the Peloponnese:

a) Mazaris wrote:

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/ta-%C2%ABanamiks-geni-en-peloponniso%C2%BB-toy-mazari-o-plithysmos-toy-moria-1415-2010

«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].

"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).

b) The Navigator Laskaris-Kananos made the circumnavigation of western europe (Gibraltar, England, Northern Sea, Baltic Sea). When he reached the city of Lübeck/Ljubice which back then was the frontier between Germanic and Slavic speech he wrote:

Schließlich ist noch als Zeugnis aus dem 15. Jahrhundert für das Fortleben der Slaven am Taygetos eine Stelle aus der Schilderung einer Reise des Laskaris Kananos nach Deutschland und den nordischen Ländern zu erwähnen, deren Entstehung von Vasiljev (Buzeskul-Festschrift S. 397 ff) in die Jahre 1412—1418 gesetzt wird. Der Grieche schildert dort auch die Umgegend von Lübeck und nennt jenes Land Σθλαβουνία. Er fügt dann eine Bemerkung über die Verwandtschaft der lübeckischen Slaven mit den Zygioten im Peloponnes hinzu: Ἀπ᾽ αὐτῆς τῆς ἐπαρχίας ὑπάρχουν οἱ Ζυγιῶται οἱ ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ· ἐπεὶ ἐκεῖσε ὑπάρχουν πλεῖστα χωρία, ἅτινα διαλέγονται τὴν γλῶσσαν τῶν Ζυγιωτῶν. Vgl Vasiljev a. a. 399. Zu dem Namen Ζυγιῶται verweist der russische Historiker auf den Namen Sigo de la Chacoigne für den Taygetos in der französischen Fassung der Chronik vor Morea, welchen er mit griech. Ζυγός = Taygetos gleichseht. Vgl. auch

"From here starts 'Slavunia' (the land of the Slavs), the 'Zygiotes' (inhabitants of Zygòs = Taygetos) must have come from here, because there many villages here that speak the same language with the Zygiotes"

Excellent response, that's what I was looking for!

[Loki]

How can you explain the 15-20% in Belarus?

I don't think anyone would believe that Belarusians are 100% "pure" Slavic on the male line. There have been movements from the Balkan in prehistory, especially relating to the spread of Indo-European culture. However, the absolute centre of I2 is in the Balkans.

Unfortunately, I don't have more time to dedicate to this thread today. Fortunately for people like justme, this forum is committed to freedom of expression, so she may continue with the erroneous (in my view) Nordvedt theories.

From my side I would just like to caution people not to grab onto theories so easily. Especially not ones that are used for biased purposes like this one (it attempts to make Balkan Slavs like Croats and Bosniaks more "Slavic" than they really are). They are to a large extent Slavicized native Balkanites - although the Slavic-derived R1a is very visible.

[Insuperable]

Its in central italy right across the adriatic but totally absent in the tip of the boot- And why isn't it in Apulia where Messapes from Illyria settled or Greeks in Calabria ?

I really highly doubt it was present in ancient Balkans to the degree it is now- or we'd have too see in similar numbers there in Calabria, Apulia, and Sicily. I can buy that R1a went extinct there maybe... But two huge haplogroups disappearing from Magna Graecia in a thousand years?

You are trying to discuss here about I2a for which there is no need to discuss about since it predates the known metaethnicities for thousands of years. We should concentrate on specific subclades of it which are in return connected with certain people. Subcalde of I2a called Dinaric-S came with Slavs for example, but I2a in other places doesn't need to have any connection with Slavs or anyone else for that matter.

[Insuperable]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/S6ZYexugWoI/AAAAAAAACVA/1I9HXeBDFQY/s1600/albanians.png

I* in general

Balanowsky map, spots above 35%(I don't like maps)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img837/4391/balanowsky2012.png

Based on what is Balanowsky map drawn? Looking at the geographic distribution of I2a seems like I2a is Illyrian haplogroup as implied by Loki.

[Hellenas]

A) Evidence for the high density of slavic settlement
B) Byzantine population metathesis and assimilation of the Slavs

A) Evidence of Slavic Settlement

1) A little before 650 AD, Isidore of Seville wrote that during the first years of emperor Herakleios's reign (ca. 614 AD) "Sclavi Graeciam Romanis tulerunt" ("The Slavs have taken Greece from the Romans").

2) The writer of the "Miracles of Saint Demetrius" described 7th century Thessaloniki as "a Roman island in a slavic sea".

3) Willibald wrotein his biography that when he was going to Jerusalem from Sicily in 723 AD his ship stopped "ad urbem Manafasiam in Sclavenia terra" ("in the city of Monemvasia in the land of Sclavenia").



4) The 10th century Byzantine anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:

«Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»

"And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythian' (=uncivilized) Slavs"

Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.

And for Western Peloponnese in particular:

«Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»

s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.

"And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'"

5) The Emperor Contantine VI Porphyrogennetos in the «Περί Θεμάτων» wrote about the Peloponnese that:

«Ἐσθλαβώθη δὲ πᾶσα ἡ χώρα καὶ γέγονε βάρβαρος, ὅτε ὁ λοιμικὸς θάνατος πᾶσαν ἐβόσκετο τὴν οἰκουμένην, ὁπηνίκα Κωνσταντῖνος ὁ τῆς κοπρίας ἐπώνυμος σκῆπτρα τῆς τῶν Ῥωμαίων διεῖπεν ἀρχῆς.

De thematibus II (ed. Bonn. 53, 18)

"The entire country [of Peloponnese] has been colonized by Slavs and became barbarian, when the deadly plague had stroke the empire, that is when Contantine V the "Copronymos" was emperor of the Romans".

Right after he had wrote that he remembered the Peloponnesian patrician Niketas Rendakios whom the people of Constantinople had described as a "cunning Slavic face" («γαρασδοειδής όψις εσθλαβωμένη»). The term «γαρασδοειδής» is an impromptu utilization of the slavic word gorazd = "valiant, clever", which here is used with the derogatory sense of "cunning, foxy". The Slavist Phaidon Malingoudis has explained the surname Rendakios also as a slavic nickname for "administrator" (he derives it from the proto-slavic verb ręditi (ę = a proto-slavic nasalised vowel pronounced as /en/ that survives in Polish) which means to "determine, administer, set".

Example:

Serbo-Croat compound od-rediti:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/odrediti

And Czech řídit:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%C5%99%C3%ADdit

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/esthlabothi-de-pasa-i-xora-kai-gegone-barbaros-garasdoeidis-opsis-esthlabomeni-2010

6) In the late 11th century, the Patriarch Nicholas Grammatikos describes the Slavic colonization of the Peloponnese in a letter to emperor Alexios Komnenos with the words:

«Έπί διακοσίοις δεκαοκτώ χρόνοις όλοις κατεσχόντων την Πελοπόννησον, και της Ρωμαϊκής αρχής αποτεμομένων, ως μηδέ πόδα βαλείν όλως δύνασθαι εν αυτή Ρωμαίον άνδρα»

"For 218 years that the Slavs have held Peloponnesus cut off from the Roman empire so that no Roman could set his foot in the region"

7) When Emperor Michael Palaiologos decided to launch the reconquista of the Peloponnese from the Franks (late 13th century), when he arrived in Mistras, the first to welcome him were the Slavs of Taygetos and the Tsakones of Parnon. The Frankish rulers of Peloponnese in the french version of the "chronicle of Morea" describe these Slavs as "un gent de voulentè et n'obeissent a nul seignor" (Livre de la Conqueste de la Princèe de l'Amorèe) "a people with guts who don't obey in no master". Plus, they write that they had conquered all of Peloponnese except the Slavs of Taygetus. We are later told that the same Slavs of Taygetus had liberated the city of Kalamata from the Franks and restored it to the Byzantine control.



In the first half of the 15th century, two sources testify that there were still Slavic speaking Slavs in the Peloponnese:

a) Mazaris wrote:

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/ta-%C2%ABanamiks-geni-en-peloponniso%C2%BB-toy-mazari-o-plithysmos-toy-moria-1415-2010

«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].

"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).

b) The Navigator Laskaris-Kananos made the circumnavigation of western europe (Gibraltar, England, Northern Sea, Baltic Sea). When he reached the city of Lübeck/Ljubice which back then was the frontier between Germanic and Slavic speech he wrote:

Schließlich ist noch als Zeugnis aus dem 15. Jahrhundert für das Fortleben der Slaven am Taygetos eine Stelle aus der Schilderung einer Reise des Laskaris Kananos nach Deutschland und den nordischen Ländern zu erwähnen, deren Entstehung von Vasiljev (Buzeskul-Festschrift S. 397 ff) in die Jahre 1412—1418 gesetzt wird. Der Grieche schildert dort auch die Umgegend von Lübeck und nennt jenes Land Σθλαβουνία. Er fügt dann eine Bemerkung über die Verwandtschaft der lübeckischen Slaven mit den Zygioten im Peloponnes hinzu: Ἀπ᾽ αὐτῆς τῆς ἐπαρχίας ὑπάρχουν οἱ Ζυγιῶται οἱ ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ· ἐπεὶ ἐκεῖσε ὑπάρχουν πλεῖστα χωρία, ἅτινα διαλέγονται τὴν γλῶσσαν τῶν Ζυγιωτῶν. Vgl Vasiljev a. a. 399. Zu dem Namen Ζυγιῶται verweist der russische Historiker auf den Namen Sigo de la Chacoigne für den Taygetos in der französischen Fassung der Chronik vor Morea, welchen er mit griech. Ζυγός = Taygetos gleichseht. Vgl. auch

"From here starts 'Slavunia' (the land of the Slavs), the 'Zygiotes' (inhabitants of Zygòs = Taygetos) must have come from here, because there many villages here that speak the same language with the Zygiotes"

The panslavicist, probably a communist, Scholarios Chiotis, srikes again...

With "Hellas" the Byzantines meant whole of Balkans, not just Greece, they named all Balkans as "theme Hellas", they meant that Balkans slavicized, they didn't mean Greece. All Slavs of Greece slaughtered by the Byzantine army and the few who survived(in Peloponnesos, Thessaly, Macedonia) led by the Byzantine Emperos(like Constantine E', Irene the Athenian, Nikiforos A') to Constantinoupolis so to work over there. Few Slavs assimilated in Greece.


Karl Hopf-Slavs in Greece
(the German Historian who refuted Jakob Fallmerayer)

http://www.kmffm.de/geschichte/giftmoerder_karl_hopf/Karl-Hopf.jpg
Karl Hopf (Hamm, Westphalia, February 19, 1832 – Wiesbaden, August 23, 1873) or Carl Hermann Friedrich Johann Hopf was historian and expert in Medieval Greece, both Byzantine and Frankish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Hopf

".. Ἂν οὖν διὰ τούτων τῶν σλαβικῶν ἐποικήσεων σταγόνες τινὲς σκυθικοῦ αἵματος ἐνδέχεται νὰ ρέωσιν εἰς τὰς φλέβας ἐκείνων, οἵτινες θεωροῦσιν ἑαυτοὺς ὡς ἰθαγενεῖς ἀπογόνους τῶν ἀρχαίων Ἑλλήνων, αὐτὸ τὸ μίγμα εἶναι βεβαίως μικρόν."

"As for the slavic colonization, drops of Scythian blood may flows in the veins of those who consider themselves as indigenous descendants of the ancient Greeks, this mix is of course small."

http://users.uoa.gr/~nektar/history/3contemporary/karl_hopf_slavs_in_graecia.htm

Greeks have nothing to do with Slavs
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?122883-Why-do-some-people-think-Slavs-invaded-the-entire-Balkans-but-managed-to-stay-out-of-Greece&p=2585771&viewfull=1#post2585771

[wvwvw]

Let us all celebrate our Slaviness ;) :icon_cheers:

[Nor56]

Most recently in Belarus carried out a genetic test. Belarusians genetics are the same as Russian and Balts.

In 2005-2010, the Institute of Genetics and Cytology of the National Academy of Sciences study was conducted according to the gene pool of the Belarusians of genetic markers.

Study on the Y-chromosome

According to this study , the largest part of the studied genomes contain Belarusians haplogroup R1a ( 60%) and I1b ( 17%). Based on the frequency of Y-chromosome haplogroups ( handed down from father to male offspring ) gene pool Belarusians can be characterized as a European (as indicated haplogroup R1b3), Eastern European ( in the prevalence of haplogroup R1a) and the North East Europe ( by the presence of haplogroup N3). The presence of a significant portion of the population haplogroup I1b evidence in favor of genetic ties with the peoples of southern Europe . Thus, comparison of results with other European nations genome shows that the Y chromosome markers Belarusians " show high similarity with the Eastern Slavs and the majority of the western Slavs . " . In addition, identified a genetic entity that's " forms a single dense cluster including Belarusians, Poles , Russian southwestern regions ( Belgorod, Voronezh , Kursk, Orel regions ) , as well as Russian Tver Region " . In this case , the differences between northern and southern Belarusians on the marker have been minimal .

[Hevo]

I don't think anyone would believe that Belarusians are 100% "pure" Slavic on the male line. There have been movements from the Balkan in prehistory, especially relating to the spread of Indo-European culture. However, the absolute centre of I2 is in the Balkans.

No European population is pure on on the male line but you claimed that it's rare in Slavs while it still 1 of the main haplogroups in Ukraine, Southern Russia and Belarus. Well, recently there was a study that 8,000 year old hunter-gatherer from the Loschbour rock shelter in Luxembourg, and a Mesolitic hunter gatherer from Sweden were both I2a1b*. I2a1b* is obviously older than the Illyrian tribes&Slavs and i think now that it's way more complicated and it can't be attributed to just 1 population.

[Stefan_Dusan]

No European population is pure on on the male line but you claimed that it's rare in Slavs while it still 1 of the main haplogroups in Ukraine, Southern Russia and Belarus. Well, recently there was a study that 8,000 year old hunter-gatherer from the Loschbour rock shelter in Luxembourg, and a Mesolitic hunter gatherer from Sweden were both I2a1b*. I2a1b* is obviously older than the Illyrian tribes&Slavs and i think now that it's way more complicated and it can't be attributed to just 1 population.

That's interesting, is this the same notation used now (i.e I2a2b so the I2a1b is sister clade?).

This would make my pure I2 very old and grandfather of this 8,000 year old I2a1b :cool:

[iNird]

I don't know of any study on northern Albanians. Most of their tests are done in Tirana, or Kosovo from which they make inference on Albanians in north. There is one Albanian with I2a2b from north (Shkodra) and one with I2b1 from northern Macedonia. Together out of 6 Albanians (one is probably from south, the other I have is woman) is 33%. However, I'm projecting my samples are too few now.

I'm the i2b1 which is not really common in Albania or the Balkans. It peaks in northern Germany iirc.

Here is the test with FYROM Albos and Albanians:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image% 20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=2947100_ejhg2008249f2.jpg

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image% 20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=2947100_ejhg2008249f2.jpg

[Stefan_Dusan]

I'm the i2b1 which is not really common in Albania or the Balkans. It peaks in northern Germany iirc.

Here is the test with FYROM Albos and Albanians:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image% 20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=2947100_ejhg2008249f2.jpg

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image% 20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=2947100_ejhg2008249f2.jpg

Interesting, according to that around 15%.

[safinator]

Interesting, according to that around 15%.

If you see the only I2a* old clade was found in an Albanian from Fyrom.

[Stefan_Dusan]

If you see the only I2a* old clade was found in an Albanian from Fyrom.

What about the I2a1 at almost 10%?

[safinator]

What about the I2a1 at almost 10%?

Yes 9.4 %, what about it?

[Stefan_Dusan]

Yes 9.4 %, what about it?

It along with other I2* clades makes about 15% as I said of FYROM Albos. If you add I1, it's about 20% (I*).

[Kastrioti1443]

Those genetic studies at least for albanians, should be taken in villages and highlands, people in the cities are mixed.

[safinator]

It along with other I2* clades makes about 15% as I said of FYROM Albos. If you add I1, it's about 20% (I*).

12.6 % of Slavic male lines + 4.7 of Germanic ones (In fyrom case)=17.3 %

1.6% of R1a though, much less than Albanians from Albania.

Are you asking me something or what : D?

[Hevo]

That's interesting, is this the same notation used now (i.e I2a2b so the I2a1b is sister clade?).

This would make my pure I2 very old and grandfather of this 8,000 year old I2a1b :cool:

Yeah they were reported as both I2a1b. Here are the full results of the hunter gatherers:



Luxembourg Loschbour, Heffingen [LSB 1] dark hair, 50% probability of blue eyes, darker skin than Neolithic sample M 6220-5990 BC I2 L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, M438+, L68+, P38+, M170+, M359.2-, L161.1-, L621- reported as I2a1b* U5b1a T16189C!, A6701G (reported as U5a by Delsate)

Sweden Motala [1] F 6000 BC U5a1 G5460A Lazaridis 2013
Sweden Motala [2] M 6000 BC I* P38+ , U179+ , L41+, M253-, L37- U2e1 C16527T Lazaridis 2013
Sweden Motola [3] M 6000 BC I2 L68+, M258+, U179+, L181-, L417- U5a1 G5460A, A9389G Lazaridis 2013
Sweden Motala [4] F 6000 BC U5a2d A13158G Lazaridis 2013
Sweden Motala [6] M 6000 BC ? L55+, L232- U5a2d C152T!, G6480A Lazaridis 2013
Sweden Motala [9] M 6000 BC I* P38+, P40- U5a2 G228A, G1888A, A2246G, C3756T, G6917A, A9531G Lazaridis 2013
Sweden Motala [12] M 6000 BC I2 L178+, M423+, P37.2+, L460+, L68+, M170+, M258+, U179+, M359.2-, L621-, reported as I2a1b* U2e1 C16527T

Here is more stuff about Mesolithic Y/MTDNA dna etc if you are interested.

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

You are plain I2 without the *? That's interesting.

[Stefan_Dusan]

12.6 % of Slavic male lines + 4.7 of Germanic ones (In fyrom case)=17.3 %

Are you asking me something or what : D?

haha no I thought you were correcting me xD

Now I don't think we can attribute such high I1 to German migrations.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Yeah they were reported at both as both I2a1b. Here are the full results of the hunter gatherers:



Here is more stuff about Mesolithic Y/MTDNA dna etc if you are interested.

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/mesolithicdna.shtml

You are plain I2 without the *? That's interesting.

Yes, on 23andMe, I'm pure I2 without a *. I got an FtDNA test to sort this out further, I had the Serbian researcher dig through my results looking for markers suggesting it was I2* (something) and he couldn't find them.

[safinator]

haha no I thought you were correcting me xD

Now I don't think we can attribute such high I1 to German migrations.

I1, Goths, Saxon Miners, Normans. The latter are unlikely in Fyrom though, Ostrogoths definitely left their trace.

[Artek]

I1, Goths, Saxon Miners, Normans. The latter are unlikely in Fyrom though, Ostrogoths definitely left their trace.
Continental Germanics are much more likely to be R1b-U106, Scandinavians are roughly tri-hybrid with some regional deviations.
I second Stefan_Dusan - when there is no other accompanying "germanic" haplogroup, we can't attribute it to Germanic migrations.

[JQP4545]

The panslavicist, probably a communist, Scholarios Chiotis, srikes again...

With "Hellas" the Byzantines meant whole of Balkans, not just Greece, they named all Balkans as "theme Hellas", they meant that Balkans slavicized, they didn't mean Greece. All Slavs of Greece slaughtered by the Byzantine army and the few who survived(in Peloponnesos, Thessaly, Macedonia) led by the Byzantine Emperos(like Constantine E', Irene the Athenian, Nikiforos A') to Constantinoupolis so to work over there. Few Slavs assimilated in Greece.


Karl Hopf-Slavs in Greece
(the German Historian who refuted Jakob Fallmerayer)

http://www.kmffm.de/geschichte/giftmoerder_karl_hopf/Karl-Hopf.jpg
Karl Hopf (Hamm, Westphalia, February 19, 1832 – Wiesbaden, August 23, 1873) or Carl Hermann Friedrich Johann Hopf was historian and expert in Medieval Greece, both Byzantine and Frankish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Hopf

".. Ἂν οὖν διὰ τούτων τῶν σλαβικῶν ἐποικήσεων σταγόνες τινὲς σκυθικοῦ αἵματος ἐνδέχεται νὰ ρέωσιν εἰς τὰς φλέβας ἐκείνων, οἵτινες θεωροῦσιν ἑαυτοὺς ὡς ἰθαγενεῖς ἀπογόνους τῶν ἀρχαίων Ἑλλήνων, αὐτὸ τὸ μίγμα εἶναι βεβαίως μικρόν."

"As for the slavic colonization, drops of Scythian blood may flows in the veins of those who consider themselves as indigenous descendants of the ancient Greeks, this mix is of course small."

http://users.uoa.gr/~nektar/history/3contemporary/karl_hopf_slavs_in_graecia.htm

Greeks have nothing to do with Slavs
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?122883-Why-do-some-people-think-Slavs-invaded-the-entire-Balkans-but-managed-to-stay-out-of-Greece&p=2585771&viewfull=1#post2585771

Greeks predominant ancestry is Ancient Greece, so naturally they are related to Sicilians and Western Anatolians. But according to this study, about 30% of the Greek genome is Polish/Slavic.

http://cyprus-mail.com/2014/02/06/cypriot-dna-evident-in-over-a-dozen-populations/


The biggest DNA contributors to the Greek genome, according to the study, were Polish 30 per cent, followed by Italian, Iranian, Jordanian and Syrian.

So that is why Greece looks how it does on the genetic map of Europe:

46590

Between Sicily and Poland/Slavic countries with the pull being toward Sicily/South Italy.

[JQP4545]

IMO that's a cool heritage. Modern Greeks are both the descendants of the Ancient Hellenes and Slavic migrants and warriors. And if the Slavic heritage comes from slaves it means they fought off their oppressors and founded a modern nation.

[Artek]

Greeks predominant ancestry is Ancient Greece, so naturally they are related to Sicilians and Western Anatolians. But according to this study, about 30% of the Greek genome is Polish/Slavic.

http://cyprus-mail.com/2014/02/06/cypriot-dna-evident-in-over-a-dozen-populations/



Polish/Slavic genome? :eek:

I think it really means - Greek reference set shares 30% of similarity with Polish reference set...as do any nation in Europe to one extent or another.
Swedes are more similar to Poles than Greeks but it doesn't mean they were invaded by ancient Poles at some point of history. This similarity has much older ties than that - starting with Corded Ware and ending by common mesolithic genomic-wide ancestry

[Hellenas]

Greeks predominant ancestry is Ancient Greece, so naturally they are related to Sicilians and Western Anatolians. But according to this study, about 30% of the Greek genome is Polish/Slavic.

http://cyprus-mail.com/2014/02/06/cypriot-dna-evident-in-over-a-dozen-populations/



As you said, only according to this study. This study is fake and wrong as well. Read that:

Leonidas Davranoglou said...

I would be very sceptical for many of the results, especially for Greek-Slavic admixture. This study basically contradicts all previous studies both based on Y/mtDNA data as well as aDNA, which indicate a highly variable slavic ancestry in Greeks, not above 23%. It is interesting that Bulgarians (who look more slavic) in this study, have less ''Polish-like'' slavic ancestry than the Greeks. It is also unfortunate that other south slavic populations such as the Serbs and the Bosnians - characterised by an excess of Y-DNA haplogroup I were not included.
What is also weird that Greeks have a significatn (6%) Scottish and English -like admixture.
I would interpret this in two ways.
1) The Greek sample consists mainly of Northern Greeks (e.g. Macedonia, Thrace) which have both higher slavic ancestry compared to the rest of Greece and have historically been settled by Celts.
2) As North Italians (always according to this study) have more than 30% ''scottish-british'ancestry, I would interpret this admixture in Greeks as a possible signal of Roman admixture.

Anyway, I think it is bad practice to try to make inferences about any large-scale migration by using such a limited sample (only 20 Greeks) and only two out of the many countries that were affected by it. In my opinion this study does not contradict in any way the assumption of all previous studies of a low slavic ancestry in Greeks.

Friday, February 14, 2014 1:35:00 pm

Leonidas Davranoglou said...

Overall, it seems that this paper is full of ambiguities...
Interestingly, I even watched on the Greek news that based on this study the Polish are now considered as the cousin -nation of Greeks! Misinterpretation of scientific data by non-biologists is always funny :p
A quick search in the literature on Greek autosomes greatly contradicts the results of this paper.
Also, Dienekes, I know we basically have no idea of ancient Balkan autosomes, but wouldn't you expect slaves to have had an impact in the Greek gene pool and possibly introduce a more Northern component (if they had it)? I know most slaves were Greek, but there was a significant number of Thracian slaves (even introduced the worship of Mendis in Athens).
A bit off topic, but an archaeologist friend in Athens tells me that there are so many bones found in excavations that sometimes they are even thrown away since there is nowhere to store them! How come nobody has attempted to extract DNA from these samples (I know that preservation is hard in hot countries)?

Monday, February 17, 2014 1:10:00 am

See comments
http://dienekes.blogspot.gr/2014/02/human-admixture-common-in-human-history.html


So that is why Greece looks how it does on the genetic map of Europe:

46590

Between Sicily and Poland/Slavic countries with the pull being toward Sicily/South Italy.

This map shows that Greeks are close to Italians, Romanians and Yugoslavians, not with Poles.

"The Yugoslavs are between Greeks and Czechs and Poles, consistent with their having both indigenous Balkan and non-Balkan Slavic origins;"

See these maps

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Hellenas1977/Hellas1/price-1.jpg

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=1082&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.zetaboards.com%2Fanthroscape%2 Ftopic%2F927880%2F1%2F&v=1&libid=1321569415669&out=http%3A%2F%2Fimg216.imageshack.us%2Fimg216%2F4 287%2Fseldinplotpf5.png&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.zetaboards.com%2Fanthroscape%2 Ftopic%2F4581364%2F2%2F&title=European%20Population%20Structure&txt=%3Cimg%20alt%3D%22Posted%20Image%22%20src%3D%2 2http%3A%2F%2Fimg216.imageshack.us%2Fimg216%2F4287 %2Fseldinplotpf5.th.png%22%3E&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13215694940325

As well as this study:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?122883-Why-do-some-people-think-Slavs-invaded-the-entire-Balkans-but-managed-to-stay-out-of-Greece&p=2585771&viewfull=1#post2585771

[wvwvw]

Polish/Slavic genome? :eek:

I think it really means - Greek reference set shares 30% of similarity with Polish reference set...as do any nation in Europe to one extent or another.
Swedes are more similar to Poles than Greeks but it doesn't mean they were invaded by ancient Poles at some point of history. This similarity has much older ties than that - starting with Corded Ware and ending by common mesolithic genomic-wide ancestry

Polish like does not mean Polish DNA, it shows to whom your Northern European, Middle Eastern etc is most similar to. In this case it is Polish-like because Bulgarians and Serbs too have Polish like DNA, but it could also be that part of this NE is not entirely Slavic. Perhap's Ancient Greeks too had a Polish-like Nothern European component who knows

[Artek]

Polish like does not mean Polish DNA, it shows to whom your Northern European, Middle Eastern etc is most similar to. In this case it is Polish-like because Bulgarians and Serbs too have Polish like DNA, but it could also be that part of this NE is not entirely Slavic. Perhap's Ancient Greeks too had a Polish-like Nothern European component who knows
I fully understood that, just referred to the wrong use of the words describing it.

[Smeagol]

http://cyprus-mail.com/2014/02/06/cypriot-dna-evident-in-over-a-dozen-populations/



So modern Greeks are mostly ancient Hellenes mixed with 30% Slavic ancestry, probably from thousands of years of importation of Slavic slaves.

No. The Northeastern element in the Greeks is probably mostly from the Indoeuropeans..

[Artek]

No. The Northeastern element in the Greeks is probably mostly from the Indoeuropeans..
Indeed, people seem to forget that people who brought proto-Greek language came from the Northern or Northeastern direction.
We don't have their genome of course but they probably were less Mediterranean then they are now.

[Scholarios]

Indeed, people seem to forget that people who brought proto-Greek language came from the Northern or Northeastern direction.
We don't have their genome of course but they probably were less Mediterranean then they are now.

This is likely. On the other hand , a good measurement is to look at Sicilians and Calabrians- who were Greek-speakers up to a few hundred years ago. If they lack certain clades of I and R1a - those are damn good contenders for what was brought to Balkans by medieval Slavs. ( r1a1 *m458 and I2a2). Clearly some R1a or possibly R1b comes from steppe folk in the Bronze Age.

[JQP4545]

This is likely. On the other hand , a good measurement is to look at Sicilians and Calabrians- who were Greek-speakers up to a few hundred years ago. If they lack certain clades of I and R1a - those are damn good contenders for what was brought to Balkans by medieval Slavs. ( r1a1 *m458 and I2a2). Clearly some R1a or possibly R1b comes from steppe folk in the Bronze Age.

Exactly. Ancient Greeks would have been closer to Sicilian or maybe even more MENAish, but Slavic input pulls them a bit to the North. This is why on the genetic map of Europe the Greek sample looks how it does; like Sicily with a pull towards North Slavs.

[Hellenas]

Indeed, people seem to forget that people who brought proto-Greek language came from the Northern or Northeastern direction.
We don't have their genome of course but they probably were less Mediterranean then they are now.

Greek alphabet was in use at 6000 BC
http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/15/greek-alphabet-use-6000-bc

ANTHROPOLOGICAL EVIDENCE

"Early anthropologists commonly believed that the Hellenes belonged principally to the Mediterranean(a) race. This was the view shared by Sergi [1] and Ripley [2]. In a more recent study of the problem of Race, John R. Baker in [5] says that later studies “do not appear to have disproved” these views."

http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/hellenes/

According to ancient Greeks, the Hellenes/Greeks came from northern Greece, not from Germany or the Ukrainian steppes, as some Nazi-Nordicists and Indo-Europeanists claim.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png

[Hellenas]

Exactly. Ancient Greeks would have been closer to Sicilian or maybe even more MENAish, but Slavic input pulls them a bit to the North. This is why on the genetic map of Europe the Greek sample looks how it does; like Sicily with a pull towards North Slavs.

I proved you wrong as well.

[Scholarios]

I proved you wrong as well.

You just posted some dissenting opinions.

[Scholarios]

Greek alphabet was in use at 6000 BC
http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/15/greek-alphabet-use-6000-bc



According to ancient Greeks, the Hellenes/Greeks came from northern Greece, not from Germany or the Ukrainian steppes, as some Nazi-Nordicists and Indo-Europeanists claim.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png


I suppose they sprouted from the ground like potatoes? Of Athena from Zeus' head?

[Hellenas]

You just posted some dissenting opinions.

Made by Scientists as well and don't forget these genetic maps:

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Hellenas1977/Hellas1/price-1.jpg

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=1082&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.zetaboards.com%2Fanthroscape%2 Ftopic%2F927880%2F1%2F&v=1&libid=1321569415669&out=http%3A%2F%2Fimg216.imageshack.us%2Fimg216%2F4 287%2Fseldinplotpf5.png&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.zetaboards.com%2Fanthroscape%2 Ftopic%2F4581364%2F2%2F&title=European%20Population%20Structure&txt=%3Cimg%20alt%3D%22Posted%20Image%22%20src%3D%2 2http%3A%2F%2Fimg216.imageshack.us%2Fimg216%2F4287 %2Fseldinplotpf5.th.png%22%3E&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13215694940325

[Hellenas]

I suppose they sprouted from the ground like potatoes? Of Athena from Zeus' head?

No you panslavicist commie scum.


THE DNA OF THE INHABITANTS OF GREECE(by Aristotle University of Thessaloniki):

Theories of origin of the Greeks

• The theory of Indo-European origin of the Greeks, based on linguistic analysis and comparisons with no archaeological or other evidence. Comparative linguists are the main supporters. In Rello5, despite the wide dissemination, this theory is not based on solid sources, and must be rejected.

• The theory of indigenous, which is supported by the ancient Greeks themselves. The main exponent of this theory is Professor Colin Renfrew6.

"The most important conclusion is that the DNA of the Greeks is heavily indigenous, something that has been proposed by Professor Renfrew6 and verified by modern molecular genetic analysis."

"Τhe DNA of the Greeks has the following origin: 8% in recent years (about 3,000 years from now), 20% during the Neolithic period (9000-3000), 44% in the last upper Paleolithic era ( 14500-9000), 14.5% on average over the Paleolithic era (26,000 to 14,500 years) and a 11% in the original upper Paleolithic era (45.500 -26.000)."

http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/44/updated-dna-inhabitants-greece

[Scholarios]

Made by Scientists as well and don't forget these genetic maps:

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Hellenas1977/Hellas1/price-1.jpg

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=1082&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.zetaboards.com%2Fanthroscape%2 Ftopic%2F927880%2F1%2F&v=1&libid=1321569415669&out=http%3A%2F%2Fimg216.imageshack.us%2Fimg216%2F4 287%2Fseldinplotpf5.png&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fs1.zetaboards.com%2Fanthroscape%2 Ftopic%2F4581364%2F2%2F&title=European%20Population%20Structure&txt=%3Cimg%20alt%3D%22Posted%20Image%22%20src%3D%2 2http%3A%2F%2Fimg216.imageshack.us%2Fimg216%2F4287 %2Fseldinplotpf5.th.png%22%3E&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13215694940325

Nobody said Greeks cluster with Poles ( for the hundredth time) just that some of the " north component " is from mingling with others ( probably in Middle Ages ) this is something you've got nothing to say except spam:

[Hellenas]

Nobody said Greeks cluster with Poles ( for the hundredth time) just that some of the " north component " is from mingling with others ( probably in Middle Ages ) this is something you've got nothing to say except spam:

JQP4545 posted a genetic map claiming that Greeks are close to Poles you imbecile commie troll and you have post repeatedly "historical evidence" of Slavic settlement in Greece which prove, according to you, that Greeks are partly Slavs, ignoring the historical fact that the slavs slaughtered by the Byzantine Army in Greece and that very few assimilated, you fool no one as well.

[Scholarios]

JQP4545 posted a genetic map claiming that Greeks are close to Poles you imbecile commie troll and you have post repeatedly "historical evidence" of Slavic settlement in Greece which prove, according to you, that Greeks are partly Slavs, ignoring the historical fact that the slavs slaughtered by the Byzantine Army in Greece and that very few assimilated, you fool no one as well.

Slavs slaughtered in all Greece is about as real as Orcs and giants walked the earth.

And I'm no commie you Arvanite donkey farmer.

[Hellenas]

Slavs slaughtered in all Greece is about as real as Orcs and giants walked the earth.

Yes most slaughtered and the few who survived led in Constantinoupolis. Go open a book of history and read what the Byzantine Emperos Constantinos E', Irene the Athenian and Nikiforos A' did to your beloved Slavs.

I suggest Constantinos Paparrigopoulos and his "History of the Greek Nation":
http://www.scribd.com/search-documents?escape=false&page=1&query=history+of+the+Greek+nation


And I'm no commie you Arvanite donkey farmer.

You admitted yourself once your a commie, however, like most Greeks I am not an Arvanite, a Vlah, Slavophone, Turkophone or whatever(those were/are just minorities among Greeks), I descend only from Greek speaking Greeks as well. My mother's side once was very rich, I am not a descendant of farmers, not that I have a problem with those who are. I don't have a donkey look either, I am not dolichocephalic, but you probably are a hyperbrachycephalous Bavaro-Slav as well.

[Scholarios]

Yes most slaughtered and the few who survived led in Constantinoupolis. Go open a book of history and read what the Byzantine Emperos Constantinos E', Irene the Athenian and Nikiforos A' did to your beloved Slavs.

I suggest Constantinos Paparrigopoulos and his "History of the Greek Nation":
http://www.scribd.com/search-documents?escape=false&page=1&query=history+of+the+Greek+nation

I have Vacalopoulos' book here( hard copy) " origins of the Greek Nation volume 2-

" The process of Hellenization was not brought about by merely religious conversion and military defeat. On the contrary, the Slavs were simultaneously exposed to a variety of intellectual, political, and economic influences. The big cities of Constantinople, Thessalonica, Corinth, and Patras were obvious centers of CULTURAL DIFFUSION. As Vasmer correctly pointed out. "

And his quote of professor Kougeas-

During the period of the despotate of Morea- the Maniatai and the people of Zygos( the Slavs) though of different racial lineage had clearly begun to amalgate as a consequence of racial intermixing during the Paeleologian Period.

And Mazaris attacking Plethon's esoteric theories here:

«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].

"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/ta-«anamiks-geni-en-peloponniso»-toy-mazari-o-plithysmos-toy-moria-1415-2010

Of course, a reiteration of the situation we are dealing with:

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/281/xvsd.png

But the place was Re-Hellenized- as we already mentioned through the cultural influence of surviving Greeks. But the idea that all Slavs were "expelled" is a lighable fairytale. ere is what really happened, from the mouths of the Byzantines themselves:

«Tαῦτα [τὰ Σκλαβικά ἔθνη] δὲ ὁ ἡμέτερος ἐν θείᾳ τῇ λήξει γενόμενος πατὴρ καὶ Ῥωμαίων αὐτοκράτωρ Βασίλειος τῶν ἀρχαίων ἐθῶν ἔπεισε μεταστῆναι καὶ, γρακῶσας, καὶ ἄρχουσι κατὰ τὸν Ῥωμαϊκό τύπον ὑποτάξας, καὶ βαπτίσματι τιμήσας, τῆς τε δουλείας ἡλευθέρωσε τῶν ἑαυτῶν ἀρχόντων, καὶ στρατεύεσθαι κατὰ τῶν Ῥωμαίοις πολεμούντων ἐθνῶν ἐξεπαίδευσεν, οὕτω πως ἑπιμελῶς περὶ τὰ τοιαύτα διακείμενος, διό καὶ ἀμερίμνους Ῥωμαίους ἐκ τῆς πολλάκις ἀπὸ Σκλάβων γενομένης ἀνταρσίας ἐποίησεν, πολλὰς ὑπ΄ἐκείνων ὀχλήσεις καὶ πολέμους τοῖς πάλαι χρόνοις ὑπομείναντας».

English Translation by George T. Dennis's "Tactica" (page 471):

"Our father, Emperor of the Romans, Basil, now in the divine dwelling, persuaded these peoples [the Slavic tribes] to abandon their ancient ways and, having tought them the greek language,, subjected them to rulers (archontes) according to the Roman model, and having graced them with baptism, he liberated them from slavery to their own rulers and trained them to take part in warfare against those nations warring against the Romans. By these means he very carefully arranged matters for those peoples. As a result, he enabled the Romans to feel relaxed after the frequent uprisings by the Slavs in the past and the many disturbances and wars they had suffered from them in ancient times".

So there is what happened to the Slavs... There is your I2a2 ydna and your r1a1 m458. And it's the reason my familiy's vilage changed from Asea to "Kandreva" and Amykles changed to 'Slavochori' and and Pylos to Navarino and Krokees to Levetsova. The Byzantines didnt care about preserving pure Hellenic dna.. the Byzantines didnt even know what dna was...

[Artek]

"The most important conclusion is that the DNA of the Greeks is heavily indigenous, something that has been proposed by Professor Renfrew6 and verified by modern molecular genetic analysis."

Indigenous = neolithic ? Then I have to agree, still it doesn't say anything about people who brought here a language.

[blogen]

Indigenous = neolithic ? Then I have to agree, still it doesn't say anything about people who brought here a language.

Yes, indigenous here = prehistoric without language.

[Hellenas]

"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).

Dear panbastardizer Albanian Imposter or Leftist, whatever in hell you are, the Pelopponnesians are not a mixture of different ethnicities and races, according to anthropologists such as Aris Poulianos most Peloponnesians belong to the Aegean indigenous racial variety and according to Theodoros Pitsios Arvanites differ in nothing from the rest Peloponnesians, while they differ from Albanians. Italians, French and Spaniards left Greece, the Arvanites were not Albanians(but Greeks from Arvana, influenced linguistically from Albanians), all Jews of Peloponnesos slaughtered by the Greek revolutionaries during 1821 and there are not any Egyptians in Peloponnesos. As for Slavs, read that:

Περί της εποικήσεως Σλαβικών τινών φυλών εις την Πελοπόννησον
http://anemi.lib.uoc.gr/php/pdf_pager.php?rec=/metadata/6/7/8/metadata-39-0000554.tkl&do=150159.pdf&pageno=1&pagestart=1&width=331&height=540&maxpage=117&lang=en


But the idea that all Slavs were "expelled" is a lighable fairytale.

"Idea"? What "idea" you Albanian imposter(or Leftist Marxist, whatever in hell you are)? I told you, the Emperors Constantinos E', Irene the Athenian and Nikiforos A' gave orders and the Slavs in Peloponnesos, Thessaly, Macedonia etc, slaughtered by the Byzantine army, they few who survived led in Constantinoupolis, very few assimilated(and there are not any Baltid or Neo-Danubian racial types in Peloponnesos), read the father of modern Greek history Constantinos Paparrigopoulos and his "History of the Hellenic Nation". I am not going to quote him for you, I don't have time for that.

[Hellenas]

Indigenous = neolithic?

Both Neolithic and Paleolithic, Greeks are 75% Paleolithics and 25% Neolithics, both are indigenous.


Then I have to agree, still it doesn't say anything about people who brought here a language.

No one brought in Greece any language, these are just fake theories of Anglo-Saxons, Greeks always spoke Greek.

Greek alphabet was in use at 6000 BC
http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/15/greek-alphabet-use-6000-bc

The Pelasgians-direct ancestors of the Hellenes
http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/52/pelasgians-direct-ancestors-hellenes

THE PHOENICIAN ALPHABET IS THE GREEK-PELASGIAN ALPHABET.
http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/16/phoenician-alphabet-greek-pelasgian


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wVy-91AZUE

[Artek]

Both Neolithic and Paleolithic, Greeks are 75% Paleolithics and 25% Neolithics, both are indigenous.



No one brought in Greece any language, these are just fake theories of Anglo-Saxons, Greeks always spoke Greek.

Nice one, troll

[Insuperable]

Both Neolithic and Paleolithic, Greeks are 75% Paleolithics and 25% Neolithics, both are indigenous.

More like the other way around.

[Sikeliot]

This is likely. On the other hand , a good measurement is to look at Sicilians and Calabrians- who were Greek-speakers up to a few hundred years ago. If they lack certain clades of I and R1a - those are damn good contenders for what was brought to Balkans by medieval Slavs. ( r1a1 *m458 and I2a2). Clearly some R1a or possibly R1b comes from steppe folk in the Bronze Age.

I am R1a but all I know is that I2, R1a, etc. are so low in southern Italy that it is almost surprising.


Exactly. Ancient Greeks would have been closer to Sicilian or maybe even more MENAish

Unlikely, since they didn't have Phoenicians or Carthaginians like Sicilians did. If anything the ancient Greeks would have been closest to mainland southern Italians.

[Sikeliot]

Slavic influence in Greece (or most of the Balkans) is not large but it is enough to make people like this appear in Greece who could never pass in Sicily (nor Calabria, nor Turkey, nor Cyprus) in a million years:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8521/8462353980_a2193b220a_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8252/8461258105_c6ddfd3d85_m.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6220/6291300557_4edac37d0e_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6224/6291299095_a1c46a30ec_m.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6219/6291819676_d959681534_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6214/6291819594_d4413f21dd_m.jpg

[Hellenas]

More like the other way around.

Dream on Slav.


THE DNA OF THE INHABITANTS OF GREECE
(by Aristotle University of Thessaloniki)

• 75% -80% of the current mitochondrial DNA of the inhabitants of Greece9 is Paleolithic in origin and is formed after three migratory events (two Paleolithic and one Neolithic Age) that correspond to periods of glacier (from 50000-9000 years)10. The most important conclusion is that the DNA of the Greeks is heavily indigenous, something that has been proposed by Professor Renfrew6 and verified by modern molecular genetic analysis.

• The remainder, 20% -25% of our DNA it has Neolithic origin9 and created over 9000 years.

http://hellas2010.proboards.com/thread/44/updated-dna-inhabitants-greece

[Hellenas]

Nice one, troll

Blame the Scientists I posted not me.

[Hellenas]

If they lack certain clades of I and R1a - those are damn good contenders for what was brought to Balkans by medieval Slavs. ( r1a1 *m458 and I2a2). Clearly some R1a or possibly R1b comes from steppe folk in the Bronze Age.


I am R1a but all I know is that I2, R1a, etc. are so low in southern Italy that it is almost surprising.

Not all R1a is "Slavic"

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

Neither I2a2

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-I2b.gif

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

In fact I2a2 is western European, Germanic, not "Slavic".

THE QUESTION IS HOW MUCH R1a-M458(PROTO-SLAVIC) GREEKS HAVE?

[Hellenas]

Slavic influence in Greece (or most of the Balkans) is not large but it is enough to make people like this appear in Greece who could never pass in Sicily (nor Calabria, nor Turkey, nor Cyprus) in a million years:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8521/8462353980_a2193b220a_m.jpghttp://farm9.staticflickr.com/8252/8461258105_c6ddfd3d85_m.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6220/6291300557_4edac37d0e_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6224/6291299095_a1c46a30ec_m.jpg
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6219/6291819676_d959681534_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6214/6291819594_d4413f21dd_m.jpg

Again with your cherry picking photos?

The only ones who look "Slavic", are these two:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6219/6291819676_d959681534_m.jpghttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6220/6291300557_4edac37d0e_m.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8252/8461258105_c6ddfd3d85_m.jpg

Lol, this is Classic Mediterranean.

[dralos]

greeks are a mix of turks and slavs excluding mighty arvanites

[Hellenas]

greeks are a mix of turks and slavs excluding mighty arvanites

Prove it, where are the Anthropologists or Geneticists who say so?

For the moment, take Carleton Coon:

"The Albanian language, a hybrid between Illyrian, Thracian, Latin, Slavic, Turkish, and other elements, reflects the ethnically composite origin of the Albanians."

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII13.htm

[dralos]

Prove it, where are the Anthropologists or Geneticists who say so?

For the moment, take Carleton Coon:

"The Albanian language, a hybrid between Illyrian, Thracian, Latin, Slavic, Turkish, and other elements, reflects the ethnically composite origin of the Albanians."

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII13.htm
just walk around in greece and see those anatolian faces

[Hellenas]

just walk around in greece and see those anatolian faces

Typical Anatolians=Med-Armenoids, this type do not exist in Greece.

Better walk to north Albania and see all thοse Caucasian-Armenoid/Asiatic Dinaric faces.

[dralos]

Typical Anatolians=Med-Armenoids, this type do not exist in Greece.

Better walk to north Albania and see all thοse Caucasian-Armenoid/Asiatic Dinaric faces.
armenoids are midgets which we are not far from it while you are dark and short like anatolians

[Dombra]

Ironic that Greeks got the superior I from slaves

[Hellenas]

armenoids are midgets which we are not far from it while you are dark and short like anatolians

The Armenian race is the source of Dinarics, Semites and Norics. Greeks are white skinned(often tanned) and of medium stature(average:178.06 cm/5 ft 10 in), especially most of Greeks are taller than south Albanians(Tosks), who also are often tanned. It seems you just troll as well.

[dralos]

Armenoid race is the source of Dinarics, Semites and Norics. Greeks are white skinned(often tanned) and of medium stature(average:178.06 cm/5 ft 10 in), especially most of Greeks are taller than south Albanians(Tosks), who also are often tanned. It seems you just troll as well.
don't look at some pisspoor so called tosks you see in greece bcs real tosks are taller than average greek

[Scholarios]

don't look at some pisspoor so called tosks you see in greece bcs real tosks are taller than average greek

Hmm. Maybe only Labs. The rest are shorter than average Med Greek. C'mon- they're such Alpines.

[dralos]

Hmm. Maybe only Labs. The rest are shorter than average Med Greek. C'mon- they're such Alpines.
thats a stereotype that most tosks are alpines majority are dinarid,hasn't this been said a lot of times

[dralos]

Hmm. Maybe only Labs. The rest are shorter than average Med Greek. C'mon- they're such Alpines.
and are the poorest people of society usually alpines and those tosks in greece are poorest of the poorest

[Scholarios]

thats a stereotype that most tosks are alpines majority are dinarid,hasn't this been said a lot of times

Those Alpines must just be assimilated Greeks then :)

[dralos]

Those Alpines must just be assimilated Greeks then :)
they are more alpine than alboz from north but not in a exaggerated way
there is not such a big difference between alboz from north and south

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I believe that would be more I1 than I2. Plus a small number of body guards versus hundreds of thousands or millions of slaves entering first the Roman Empire and then the Ottoman empire from the Ukraine/Poland region.

Slaves get gobbled up though, and warriors spread their seed around. I don't expect many male slaves to procreate, and don't any significant y-dna gets spread around this way. I2a is probably not spread there any time recently or in one event, judging by how it lies.

[Hellenas]

don't look at some pisspoor so called tosks you see in greece bcs real tosks are taller than average greek

Tosks are some small round headed Alpines, as we use to say in Greece: Greeks are tall and athletic while Albanians(Tosks) small and fat.

Physical anthropology

The Tosks have often been described as shorter, less slender and described as being of a darker Mediterranean type having a darker skin color than the Ghegs.[21] The Tosks have smaller noses and rounder faces than Ghegs.[22] Some claim that this difference has been reduced because of population movement in the period after 1992.[23]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Tosk_Albanians.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tosks#Physical_anthropology

Carleton Coon:

Albanians

"The only adequate anthropometric data extant which deals with the Toscs is a series from southwestern Albania, from the town of Gjinokastλr and its neighborhood.129 These Aginocastrians are on the short side of medium in stature, with a mean of 164 cm.;"

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII13.htm

Greeks

"The men measured came from all parts of Greece, and from Asia Minor. Their mean stature, 168 cm.,"

"The stature mean for Greeks in general runs about 167 cm., and there seems to be little regional variation; those in Asia Minor and in the Crimea are a millimeter shorter, those measured in Boston a millimeter taller."

"The Greeks are as tall as most South Germans or northern Frenchmen;"

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII14.htm

Even back then we were taller than south Albanians. However no one cares who's taller, Alexander the great for an example was a short man, does this will stop your claims that he was an Albanian?

[dralos]

Tosks are some small round headed Alpines, as we use to say in Greece: Greeks are tall and athletic while Albanians(Tosks) small and fat.

Physical anthropology

The Tosks have often been described as shorter, less slender and described as being of a darker Mediterranean type having a darker skin color than the Ghegs.[21] The Tosks have smaller noses and rounder faces than Ghegs.[22] Some claim that this difference has been reduced because of population movement in the period after 1992.[23]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Tosk_Albanians.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tosks#Physical_anthropology

Carleton Coon:

Albanians

"The only adequate anthropometric data extant which deals with the Toscs is a series from southwestern Albania, from the town of Gjinokastλr and its neighborhood.129 These Aginocastrians are on the short side of medium in stature, with a mean of 164 cm.;"

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII13.htm

Greeks

"The men measured came from all parts of Greece, and from Asia Minor. Their mean stature, 168 cm.,"

"The stature mean for Greeks in general runs about 167 cm., and there seems to be little regional variation; those in Asia Minor and in the Crimea are a millimeter shorter, those measured in Boston a millimeter taller."

"The Greeks are as tall as most South Germans or northern Frenchmen;"

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII14.htm

Even back then we were taller than south Albanians. However no one cares who's taller, Alexander the great for an example was a short man, does this will stop your claims that he was an Albanian?
no bcs according to you he was a tosk btw gjirokaster has a lot of vlachs and gypsies who knows who he measured

[Hellenas]

thats a stereotype that most tosks are alpines majority are dinarid,hasn't this been said a lot of times

Nope.

"In the first place, the fundamental Tosc type is Alpine. The head form, with or without occipital flattening, is usually globular, the forehead high and often bulbous, the face frequently round in contour. The nose in many cases lacks the high-bridged Dinaric character found among the Ghegs, as well as the common depression of the tip. This Alpine type is well represented by photographs on Plate 14. Beside the Alpines, there are many Dinarics in southern Albania, but they probably form a minority, and in any case are extremely variable. In Albania it is very easy to distinguish a Gheg;"

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII13.htm

[Hellenas]

no bcs according to you he was a tosk btw gjirokaster has a lot of vlachs and gypsies who knows who he measured

Ha, ha, ha, ha... are these your excuses?

[dralos]

Nope.

"In the first place, the fundamental Tosc type is Alpine. The head form, with or without occipital flattening, is usually globular, the forehead high and often bulbous, the face frequently round in contour. The nose in many cases lacks the high-bridged Dinaric character found among the Ghegs, as well as the common depression of the tip. This Alpine type is well represented by photographs on Plate 14. Beside the Alpines, there are many Dinarics in southern Albania, but they probably form a minority, and in any case are extremely variable. In Albania it is very easy to distinguish a Gheg;"

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII13.htm
i'm no expert on toskalboz but they can't be shorter than greeks lol especially if you combine the labs who are tall like ghegalboz

[Hellenas]

there is not such a big difference between alboz from north and south

Ghegs(north Albanians) are mostly Dinarics and Tosks(south Albanians) are mostly Alpines.

Albania and the Dinaric Race
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII13.htm

Sorry, either your in ignorance or you lie as well.

[dralos]

Ghegs(north Albanians) are mostly Dinarics and Tosks(south Albanians) are mostly Alpines.

Albania and the Dinaric Race
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII13.htm

Sorry, either your in ignorance or you lie as well.
i know we have more dinarics but tosks do too and coon studied only on place in southalbania for example vlore has lots of dinarids

[Hellenas]

i'm no expert on toskalboz but they can't be shorter than greeks lol especially if you combine the labs who are tall like ghegalboz

Tosks are shorter and basically, the shorter Balkanians, end of story.

By the way, who cares who's taller, you want to compare Greeks with Albanians? Greeks made the whole European civilization, Albanians made nothing, your a nothing to Greeks, just an insignificant 3rd world balkanian population that cooperates with the Turks against Greece and Serbia.

[dralos]

Tosks are shorter and basically, the shorter Balkanians, end of story.

By the way, who cares who's taller, you want to compare Greeks with Albanians? Greeks made the whole European civilization, Albanians made nothing, your a nothing to Greeks, just an insignificant 3rd world balkanian population that cooperates with the Turks against Greece and Serbia.
no tosks are taller than you and ancient greeks did that who are ancestors of alboz :D

[JQP4545]

Slaves get gobbled up though, and warriors spread their seed around. I don't expect many male slaves to procreate, and don't any significant y-dna gets spread around this way. I2a is probably not spread there any time recently or in one event, judging by how it lies.

I don't know for sure, it was only speculation that the Slavic slave trade could have effected the genetic makeup of Greece. Imo conquest does not always equal spreading genes though. Indian people were controlled by the British for a long time, but they still maintained their DNA. Also, slaves do reproduce, at least they did in the Americas.

[Scholarios]

I don't know for sure, it was only speculation that the Slavic slave trade could have effected the genetic makeup of Greece. Imo conquest does not always equal spreading genes though. Indian people were controlled by the British for a long time, but they still maintained their DNA. Also, slaves do reproduce, at least they did in the Americas.

It could of course play a part. Funny part is that people think only the shit like J2 or whatever could have come from slaves. It's impossible that northern haplogroups could have possibly come from slaves. It's basically dumb nordicist prejudice.


But I do think slavery hypothesis is not necessary. We've got documented migrations.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I don't know for sure, it was only speculation that the Slavic slave trade could have effected the genetic makeup of Greece. Imo conquest does not always equal spreading genes though. Indian people were controlled by the British for a long time, but they still maintained their DNA. Also, slaves do reproduce, at least they did in the Americas.

British were actually quite gentle on natives for the most part. Romans and ottomans used them up. Some of them had to survive, especially when the empires fell, but I don't think there could possibly be so many slavic slaves. I2a was in europe before there was such a thing, anyway.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It could of course play a part. Funny part is that people think only the shit like J2 or whatever could have come from slaves. It's impossible that northern haplogroups could have possibly come from slaves. It's basically dumb nordicist prejudice.


But I do think slavery hypothesis is not necessary. We've got documented migrations.

That's because J2 doesn't spread out from balkans. It obviously comes relatively recently and ancient DNA results say the same. It could be slaves but I think it's more invaders and ottoman migrants.

If you think it's a native greek clade that's been there since ancient times you live wholly in a world of fantasy.

[Scholarios]

That's because J2 doesn't spread out from balkans. It obviously comes relatively recently and ancient DNA results say the same. It could be slaves but I think it's more invaders and ottoman migrants.

If you think it's a native greek clade that's been there since ancient times you live wholly in a world of fantasy.

As apricity's resident mythologist I judge you to be an expert on fantasy.

J2 has high diversity in Greece and it's extremely high in regions of Greek colonization. Now unless you think ancient greeks colonized Moldova and Slovenia then the case is sort of unlikely.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

That would effect more Anatolia than Greece,no?

Plus I googled that and seems bigger in West-Balkans than Ukraine,maybe it explains the spots in Turkey.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

vs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/2000px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.jpg

Which one is more greek?!

If I2a came from slaves how did it get so concentrated in the areas this never happened? It looks suspiciously like I2a is native to balkans and spread out from there, as ancient DNA says.

It looks suspiciously like J2 (which is majority ONLY in a few pastoral tribes) is nothing whatsoever to do with greece and probably got there mostly in ottoman times. If it did get spread by greeks and not by muslim marauders then it was probably in fact as slaves.

[Black Wolf]

vs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/2000px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.jpg

Which one is more greek?!

If I2a came from slaves how did it get so concentrated in the areas this never happened? It looks suspiciously like I2a is native to balkans and spread out from there, as ancient DNA says.

It looks suspiciously like J2 (which is majority ONLY in a few pastoral tribes) is nothing whatsoever to do with greece and probably got there mostly in ottoman times. If it did get spread by greeks and not by muslim marauders then it was probably in fact as slaves.

Which pastoral tribes is J2 the majority in?

[Scholarios]

vs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/2000px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.jpg

Which one is more greek?!

If I2a came from slaves how did it get so concentrated in the areas this never happened? It looks suspiciously like I2a is native to balkans and spread out from there, as ancient DNA says.

It looks suspiciously like J2 (which is majority ONLY in a few pastoral tribes) is nothing whatsoever to do with greece and probably got there mostly in ottoman times. If it did get spread by greeks and not by muslim marauders then it was probably in fact as slaves.


1038 Greek ydna samples gives us 15% I (all clades) and and 20.1% J2.

I2A1 is weak in South Italy- but strangely it gets (slightly stronger) above Apulia Italy- where Slavs (Croatians) settled at Gargano. A thousand years of Illyrian, Greek, settlement apparently made almost no impact.


http://briggl.com/images/andiamoitaly/map.jpg

Once you accept that Greeks of the past were multiple ydna groups then it makes more sense.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

1038 Greek ydna samples gives us 15% I (all clades) and and 20.1% J2.

I2A1 is weak in South Italy- but strangely it gets (slightly stronger) above Apulia Italy- where Slavs (Croatians) settled at Gargano. A thousand years of Illyrian, Greek, settlement apparently made almost no impact.


http://briggl.com/images/andiamoitaly/map.jpg

Once you accept that Greeks of the past were multiple ydna groups then it makes more sense.

That just shows how much greece has been washed out from foreign immigration and changes in ottoman time. You can't possibly tell me that a 'greek' clade peaks in anatolia and has highest concentration in europe in thrace.

I don't expect to see south italy being more greek than greece is, either. It's pretty obviously a basal y-dna for europe that spread out from its highest concentration spots. Which is the case for I in general, which is recognized as the most obviously european origin clade in existence.

[Scholarios]

The panslavicist, probably a communist, Scholarios Chiotis, srikes again...

With "Hellas" the Byzantines meant whole of Balkans, not just Greece, they named all Balkans as "theme Hellas", they meant that Balkans slavicized, they didn't mean Greece. All Slavs of Greece slaughtered by the Byzantine army and the few who survived(in Peloponnesos, Thessaly, Macedonia) led by the Byzantine Emperos(like Constantine E', Irene the Athenian, Nikiforos A') to Constantinoupolis so to work over there. Few Slavs assimilated in Greece.


Karl Hopf-Slavs in Greece
(the German Historian who refuted Jakob Fallmerayer)

http://www.kmffm.de/geschichte/giftmoerder_karl_hopf/Karl-Hopf.jpg
Karl Hopf (Hamm, Westphalia, February 19, 1832 – Wiesbaden, August 23, 1873) or Carl Hermann Friedrich Johann Hopf was historian and expert in Medieval Greece, both Byzantine and Frankish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Hopf

".. Ἂν οὖν διὰ τούτων τῶν σλαβικῶν ἐποικήσεων σταγόνες τινὲς σκυθικοῦ αἵματος ἐνδέχεται νὰ ρέωσιν εἰς τὰς φλέβας ἐκείνων, οἵτινες θεωροῦσιν ἑαυτοὺς ὡς ἰθαγενεῖς ἀπογόνους τῶν ἀρχαίων Ἑλλήνων, αὐτὸ τὸ μίγμα εἶναι βεβαίως μικρόν."

"As for the slavic colonization, drops of Scythian blood may flows in the veins of those who consider themselves as indigenous descendants of the ancient Greeks, this mix is of course small."

http://users.uoa.gr/~nektar/history/3contemporary/karl_hopf_slavs_in_graecia.htm

Greeks have nothing to do with Slavs
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?122883-Why-do-some-people-think-Slavs-invaded-the-entire-Balkans-but-managed-to-stay-out-of-Greece&p=2585771&viewfull=1#post2585771

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Byzantine_Greece_ca_900_AD.svg

Theme of Hellas was relatively small area of Central Greece. "Small" is a subjective term.

[Scholarios]

That just shows how much greece has been washed out from foreign immigration and changes in ottoman time. You can't possibly tell me that a 'greek' clade peaks in anatolia and has highest concentration in europe in thrace.

I don't expect to see south italy being more greek than greece is, either. It's pretty obviously a basal y-dna for europe that spread out from its highest concentration spots. Which is the case for I in general, which is recognized as the most obviously european origin clade in existence.

Dude, come on. Don't get specific on I but then talk all general about J2. The Greeks (or people who would become Greeks) were two peoples. One from Anatolia (the archaic Greeks even record islands inhabited by Carians in the Aegean) and another group more Northern. Maybe these people were I...but I think R1a is a better candidate.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Dude, come on. Don't get specific on I but then talk all general about J2. The Greeks (or people who would become Greeks) were two peoples. One from Anatolia (the archaic Greeks even record islands inhabited by Carians in the Aegean) and another group more Northern. Maybe these people were I...but I think R1a is a better candidate.

Well, it is interesting to me to look at what areas have more and less of I2a and J2. So we see I2a in basque territory which also has very high med component, but no J2 there. That says to me I2a has been there a long time and the mountains have been a refugeum for it.

Megalithic shows I2a so far, and probably it spread out from around croatia. Original greeks probably had to have some clade we have found in neolithic farmer ancient DNA results, which excludes J2. OTOH they cremated as did celts so we might not find them, and it could be hiding a 'shocking' revelation that they could have been originally r1b.

But I do think they were multicladic and it's clear that IJK split around greece, but J seems to have formed more to south from there and J2 especially seems like it had a lot of separation before coming back.

As far as cretans being J2, well, I've had a long conversation about this in the past and don't want to rehash. But obviously they were not.

[iNird]

Hmm. Maybe only Labs. The rest are shorter than average Med Greek. C'mon- they're such Alpines.

Tosks aren't pred Alpine, these are the conclusions based of Coon on his sample from Albanian diasporians in Boston I believe.

I'm with a Tosk Albanian girl and they are not that different from Ghegs. They lack pure dinarids and/or pred dinarid types compared to Ghegs and sometimes have more Med component (which could be due to some Greek input.)

[Hellenas]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Byzantine_Greece_ca_900_AD.svg

Theme of Hellas was relatively small area of Central Greece. "Small" is a subjective term.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Byzantine_Empire_Themes_1025-en.svg/800px-Byzantine_Empire_Themes_1025-en.svg.png
The themata of the Byzantine Empire, at the death of Basil II in 1025.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_(Byzantine_district)

Perhaps I was wrong with "Thema Hellados", anyway with "themata Hellados" the Byzantines meant all modern Balkans, they called our peninsula as "The Hellenic peninsula" or "The Illyrian peninsula", anyway, they said the Slavs conquered theme Hellados and they reached until Aghialos/Ankhíalos(a town in modern Bulgaria).

http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/5bt9gpukzk19vv62/images/33-f7e4f6a13f.jpg

http://htmlimg1.scribdassets.com/5bt9gpukzk19vv62/images/34-54110b4844.jpg

http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/5bt9gpukzk19vv62/images/35-a50409f608.jpg

http://htmlimg2.scribdassets.com/5bt9gpukzk19vv62/images/36-54eb8f23e0.jpg

http://htmlimg1.scribdassets.com/5bt9gpukzk19vv62/images/37-aa223abb0d.jpg

http://htmlimg1.scribdassets.com/5bt9gpukzk19vv62/images/38-c34aec6d00.jpg

http://htmlimg3.scribdassets.com/5bt9gpukzk19vv62/images/39-28a6a18977.jpg

http://htmlimg1.scribdassets.com/5bt9gpukzk19vv62/images/40-6b96279694.jpg

http://htmlimg2.scribdassets.com/5bt9gpukzk19vv62/images/133-68e0108e05.jpg

http://htmlimg1.scribdassets.com/5bt9gpukzk19vv62/images/134-c0ddf70f24.jpg

http://htmlimg2.scribdassets.com/5bt9gpukzk19vv62/images/135-0d0e9fadfe.jpg

http://www.scribd.com/doc/74049576/%CE%91%CE%9D%CE%A4%CE%A9%CE%9D%CE%99%CE%9F%CE%A5-%CE%91%CE%9D%CE%A4%CE%A9%CE%9D%CE%91%CE%9A%CE%9F%C E%A5-%CE%95%CE%9B%CE%9B%CE%97%CE%9D%CE%95%CE%A3-%CE%91%CE%95%CE%99-%CE%95%CE%A3%CE%9C%CE%95%CE%9D

[Hellenas]

no tosks are taller than you and ancient greeks did that who are ancestors of alboz :D

:lol00002:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/John_Bauer_1915.jpg/642px-John_Bauer_1915.jpg
Look at them, troll mother said. Look at my sons! You won't find more beautiful trolls on this side of the moon. (1915) by John Bauer

"A troll is a supernatural being in Norse mythology and Scandinavian folklore. In origin, troll may have been a negative synonym for a jötunn (plural jötnar), a being in Norse mythology. In Old Norse sources, beings described as trolls dwell in isolated rocks, mountains, or caves, live together in small family units, and are rarely helpful to human beings.

Later, in Scandinavian folklore, trolls became beings in their own right, where they live far from human habitation, are not Christianized, and are considered dangerous to human beings. Depending on the region from which accounts of trolls stem, their appearance varies greatly; trolls may be ugly and slow-witted or look and behave exactly like human beings, with no particularly grotesque characteristic about them. Trolls are sometimes associated with particular landmarks, which at times may be explained as formed from a troll exposed to sunlight. One of the most famous elements of Scandinavian folklore, trolls are depicted in a variety of media in modern popular culture."

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll

[Hellenas]

Dienekes Pontikos-Greek Chromosomes Y

"Greeks belong to the clade J2f1 (5ky), which considered that first appeared in the Aegean region and participated in the Greek colonization and the clade J2e (4ky), which is common in Greece and Albania and also considered to have origins in the southern Balkans."

http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greeknry/indexgr.html

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/design/hg-j2.jpg

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

[Artek]

Well, it is interesting to me to look at what areas have more and less of I2a and J2. So we see I2a in basque territory which also has very high med component, but no J2 there. That says to me I2a has been there a long time and the mountains have been a refugeum for it.

Megalithic shows I2a so far, and probably it spread out from around croatia
Don't suggest yourself with modern distribution of I2a1b clades. There were once very popular among mesolithics in Scandinavia (Ajvide, Motala; also in Luxembourg) but then got almost entirely replaced by I1, R1a and R1b - that's how the distribution can reverse.

I2a1b in Croatia, for instance, belongs mostly to Dinaric-N and Dinaric-S branches which are connected with Slavic migration into the Southern Europe and relatively recent TMRCA confirms it.

[Scholarios]

Tosks aren't pred Alpine, these are the conclusions based of Coon on his sample from Albanian diasporians in Boston I believe.

I'm with a Tosk Albanian girl and they are not that different from Ghegs. They lack pure dinarids and/or pred dinarid types compared to Ghegs and sometimes have more Med component (which could be due to some Greek input.)

Yeah, I just meant as comparing Tosks with Greek population as a whole- Albanian Tosks don't seem exactly like giants. But when I think of famous Albanian Tosks I think of people with very Alpine features like Fan Noli and the Belushis (I know John was kind of a hybrid type). Albanian Tosks I met in real lfe were more diverse. So are Greeks from South Albania.

[dralos]

Yeah, I just meant as comparing Tosks with Greek population as a whole- Albanian Tosks don't seem exactly like giants. But when I think of famous Albanian Tosks I think of people with very Alpine features like Fan Noli and the Belushis (I know John was kind of a hybrid type). Albanian Tosks I met in real lfe were more diverse. So are Greeks from South Albania.
from what i've noticed only those very south are more alpine while the others are dinarid/alpine or pontid/ALPINE

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Dienekes Pontikos-Greek Chromosomes Y

"Greeks belong to the clade J2f1 (5ky), which considered that first appeared in the Aegean region and participated in the Greek colonization and the clade J2e (4ky), which is common in Greece and Albania and also considered to have origins in the southern Balkans."

http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greeknry/indexgr.html

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/design/hg-j2.jpg

http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

I would think just looking at the map would tell you this is wrong. This is obviously not origin of j2 or the way it spread.

Thankfully dienekes' hilarious thoughts are not shared by any serious scientists. He is good enough until greece is mentioned then hilarity ensues. Obviously he is J2.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Don't suggest yourself with modern distribution of I2a1b clades. There were once very popular among mesolithics in Scandinavia (Ajvide, Motala; also in Luxembourg) but then got almost entirely replaced by I1, R1a and R1b - that's how the distribution can reverse.

I2a1b in Croatia, for instance, belongs mostly to Dinaric-N and Dinaric-S branches which are connected with Slavic migration into the Southern Europe and relatively recent TMRCA confirms it.

I am not convinced the TMRCA means much. The vlachs have 20% I2a so it kind of rules out the idea it all comes by slavic migration 1000 years ago, because it obviously had to have been there already.

Basically nothing has happened in west balkans to interrupt genetic continuity. All evidence shows that events like that usually have relatively little impact. Even the heathen invasian did not completely replace anyone, and the closer to moder times you get the bigger the populations and the less likelihood to make a huge impact in such a way.

You could interpret a 'new' clade in the middle of a heat map in two ways. One is that it migrated there. The other is that is the origin point of the other waves that shot out from same location previously, and the new version is replacing the old over time due to some selection advantage.

When it suits their politics, people choose the one over the other, I have noticed. Because for other clades this layout is assume to imply an origin, yet for I and R1B it's supposed to imply a big recent migration, even though the populations involved show much less mixing than their neighbors.

[Kastrioti1443]

J2 in Balkans it is very very old, more than 8,000 years old and it is a different subclade than the one found in anatolia, it is obviously a neolithic mark.

[Kastrioti1443]

Inird, because you are with a Tosk girls doesn't mean at all that you know how Tosks look like, ok? I would like that FYROM and Kosovar Albanians to not speak about these issues, since you have literally no idea how Tosks look like, while I live among them everyday.

The heavy majority of Ethnic Albanians in Greece ( not vlachs, greeks, jevgs or gypsies) are Tosks. They were very poor people, very very poor and with very bad malnutrition. In general they are shorter than greeks, for this reason, but also because Alpinid is an important component among them, especially females. However the new generation is strongly taller and you can see Tosks, who are naturally even above 2 meters.

In general Tosks are different from Ghegs, and when I speak about Gheg i speak only about the pure nucleus that is today's Northern Albania, Southern Montenegro ( a country which is even more fake than FYROM), western Kosovo, Drenica and Northwestern FYROM.. Tosks lack the progressive tall Dinarid types, they lack the Borreby and even Cromagnid which are found a lot among the mentioned places and they lack also the higher nr of Norids that is found among the mentioned Ghegs. Tosks in General are Alpinid-Pontid, Pontid, Pontid-Dinarid, Borreby, north Pontid and Norid, phenotypes which lead to a darker pigmentation of eyes and hair in general, in this order, and they have more medish features also. Tosks changed a bit racially because a lot of Vlachs were send by the ottomans in the land of Tosks.

The purest Tosks though are Labs, and they are a different issue. Labs produce much more robust and CM types, lighter types and Norid is a common phenotype, they are taller and more or less 45% of Labs are grey, green or blue eyed.
I mean they can produce superman types such a Igli Tare, Auron Tare, Geri Cipi, all of them light or very light, very tall and very heavy too. However it must be understood that differences must not be exaggerated anyway.

[Hellenas]

I would think just looking at the map would tell you this is wrong. This is obviously not origin of j2 or the way it spread.

Thankfully dienekes' hilarious thoughts are not shared by any serious scientists. He is good enough until greece is mentioned then hilarity ensues. Obviously he is J2.

Eupedia "hilarious", Dienekes "hilarious" and the only non-hilarious is you and your Nazi gang=the Nordicists. Lol, you never posted any scientific sources to prove your claims, so we all know of who's hilarious.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Eupedia "hilarious", Dienekes "hilarious" and the only non-hilarious is you and your Nazi gang=the Nordicists.

They are both bloggers from the internet. The data they post can be interesting, conclusions are often ridiculous, and don't represent scientific establishment in any way.



Lol, you never posted any scientific sources to prove your claims, so we all know of who's hilarious.

Of course I did, look at the map I posted. How is that data less sciency than the J2 map?

J2 looks like it's spread out all over the place but obviously doesn't center in greek area, and has something of a dead spot in modern greece. So either way, this disproves idea greeks have great continuity. If J2 is main clade then why is it lower in modern greece? If it's not a main clade, why's it so high? The fact there's half a dozen y-dna clades in similar proportion makes it very hard to argue for continuity but this does not seem to bother you.

[Hellenas]

They are both bloggers from the internet. The data they post can be interesting, conclusions are often ridiculous, and don't represent scientific establishment in any way.



Of course I did, look at the map I posted. How is that data less sciency than the J2 map?

J2 looks like it's spread out all over the place but obviously doesn't center in greek area, and has something of a dead spot in modern greece. So either way, this disproves idea greeks have great continuity. If J2 is main clade then why is it lower in modern greece? If it's not a main clade, why's it so high? The fact there's half a dozen y-dna clades in similar proportion makes it very hard to argue for continuity but this does not seem to bother you.

Again, no sources, no Scientist's names, no studies, no nothing, just Nordicist claims.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Again, no source, no Scientist's names, no studies, no nothing, just Nordicist claims.

Data is compiled by studies, go check wikipedia, retard.

I could say same about you anyway. You just say "yes J2 is original greek!" over and over. Based on what? Not one ancient dna finding for J2 exists.

[Hellenas]

Data is compiled by studies, go check wikipedia, retard.

Don't insult me you light haired orangutan, AGAIN NO SOURCES OR QUOTES FOR YOUR CLAIMS.


I could say same about you anyway. You just say "yes J2 is original greek!" over and over. Based on what? Not one ancient dna finding for J2 exists.

I never said anything mine, I posted what Eupedia and Dienekes say, you can blame them but not me.

[Artek]

I am not convinced the TMRCA means much. The vlachs have 20% I2a so it kind of rules out the idea it all comes by slavic migration 1000 years ago, because it obviously had to have been there already.
They also have undobtedly slavic kinds of an R1a with just a token amount of probable R1a-Z93. So I don't think that we can so easily rule out a slavic admix.

TMRCA means much today, now supported by full Y-chromosome sequencing and estabilished mutation rates. And it all says - Dinaric clades came into existence relatively recent and took part in slavic migrations.


Basically nothing has happened in west balkans to interrupt genetic continuity. All evidence shows that events like that usually have relatively little impact. Even the heathen invasian did not completely replace anyone, and the closer to moder times you get the bigger the populations and the less likelihood to make a huge impact in such a way.
What "all evidence"? Of course there was no entire replacement of any population there .Population of those days was struck by the Plague of Justinian and decreased a lot, what helped Slavs to take control, settle and mix. And that's probably why a I2-Din increased so much in percentage at some places.

It may sound a bit exaggeratedly but all of the populations there are like a mix between Greeks and Poles. It fits the bill very well. The incursion of Slavs is obvious, both in uniparental and genomic terms. It's supported by a history.


You could interpret a 'new' clade in the middle of a heat map in two ways. One is that it migrated there. The other is that is the origin point of the other waves that shot out from same location previously, and the new version is replacing the old over time due to some selection advantage.

When it suits their politics, people choose the one over the other, I have noticed. Because for other clades this layout is assume to imply an origin, yet for I and R1B it's supposed to imply a big recent migration, even though the populations involved show much less mixing than their neighbors.
How can a hotspot imply an origin, explain it to me. Any haplogroup can start it's branching long after it's founding, especially when something disturbs in expansion.
You don't even realise how long bottlekneck did M458 clades undergo before they finally got more and more numerous. This can be applied anywhere.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Don't insult me you light haired orangutan, AGAIN NO SOURCES OR QUOTES FOR YOUR CLAIMS.



I never said anything mine, I posted what Eupedia and Dienekes say, you can blame them but not me.

Calm your african dna, friend. Your sources are crap. My source just shows data, interpretation is mine.

[Hellenas]

Calm your african dna, friend. Your sources are crap. My source just shows data, interpretation is mine.

:lol00002: Look Negramerican Albino, you never provided any source, AS YOU ARE JUST A TROLL!!! Either a Nordicist or an Afrocentrist imposter as well, or both, Afro-Nordicist!!!;)

[Dianatomia]

Yes, there is mention of slavery in the Byzantine Empire ^^^.

My point is that there is nothing in literature from slave imports from Slavic areas into Greece. In Constantinople, sure.

[Dorian]

Is this slavic too? http://i57.tinypic.com/2vb22o1.jpg

[JQP4545]

My point is that there is nothing in literature from slave imports from Slavic areas into Greece. In Constantinople, sure.

The Turks took Constantinople so naturally its Byzantine inhabitants fled to mainland Greece. Their DNA would have included Slavic from the Crimean Khanate.

[JQP4545]

Is this slavic too? http://i57.tinypic.com/2vb22o1.jpg

Which version of I2 is it?

[Dorian]

Which version of I2 is it?

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I don't see any source about it but I think it's obvious

[JQP4545]

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I don't see any source about it but I think it's obvious
I'm not sure if it is the same version found on the Mainland.

[Dianatomia]

The Turks took Constantinople so naturally its Byzantine inhabitants fled to mainland Greece. Their DNA would have included Slavic from the Crimean Khanate.

Well, the Turks took mainland Greece too. The elites from Constantinople fled, as far as I know many of them went to Italy. A bit of a long shot actually. But if they went to Greece they would be a minority. Minority genes are absorbed through the generations. They loose out. It's called genetic drift. There is not enough basis to assume I2a in Greece is from Slaves from the Crimea. There must have been something which has been persisting through the ages. I.e. continuous contact with Balkan tribes like Illyrians since pre-history. Or a massive invasion of some sort.
Some refugees from Constantinople which may have had Crimean Slavic slave ancestors is a long shot. Not to mention genetic drift may have already started in Constantinople centuries earlier as well.

[HellLander87]

JQ one has to be smart to get such stupid ideas such as yours.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

They also have undobtedly slavic kinds of an R1a with just a token amount of probable R1a-Z93. So I don't think that we can so easily rule out a slavic admix.

Two things. First, if that's the case I don't find anything.

Second, it doesn't mean anything anyway. Who's to say slavs don't come from croatia? Celts don't come from Ireland. That is their dna, not language.



TMRCA means much today, now supported by full Y-chromosome sequencing and estabilished mutation rates. And it all says - Dinaric clades came into existence relatively recent and took part in slavic migrations.


Nope, it has given misleading results over and over, it means very little. It's definitely not the same thing as "when it first evolved", which is what we actually care about.



What "all evidence"? Of course there was no entire replacement of any population there .Population of those days was struck by the Plague of Justinian and decreased a lot, what helped Slavs to take control, settle and mix. And that's probably why a I2-Din increased so much in percentage at some places.


Plague was in anatolia mostly, and EAST balkans. Less developed areas were not affected that much (as is always the case).

All the evidence is that much bigger historical migrations that were europe-shaking has little or no effect on local dna! So how on earth is this possible? Well, it's not really. There's literally a DOZEN cataclysmic events for modern greece and peloponnese and thrace and not in a million years would I believe they totally obliterated ALL local DNA.

The reality is most the people in this thread believe all west balkans DNA is absolute newcomer and all east balkans is 100% pure ancient greek, which is a complete joke. It has got to be the most exaggerated event in history, which locally is seen as biggest thing ever, but somehow is not even mentioned elsewhere.



It may sound a bit exaggeratedly but all of the populations there are like a mix between Greeks and Poles. It fits the bill very well. The incursion of Slavs is obvious, both in uniparental and genomic terms. It's supported by a history.

Well maybe the other two got mixed from them.... You can't just make these big assumptions. Croatians are NOT mixed in recent history studies show. Greeks are mixed like crazy, and poles not far behind. So I am just going to say this is bunk.



How can a hotspot imply an origin, explain it to me. Any haplogroup can start it's branching long after it's founding, especially when something disturbs in expansion.
You don't even realise how long bottlekneck did M458 clades undergo before they finally got more and more numerous. This can be applied anywhere.

The oldest forms of r1b and R are in India, but it's clear now that it did not originate in india. Natural selection, basically. Newest form of r1b is in basque territory. Maybe that's actually where r1b formed. It almost has to be since it's now clear R* made it to the ameriancs from europe with clovis culture.

[Artek]

Nope, it has given misleading results over and over, it means very little. It's definitely not the same thing as "when it first evolved", which is what we actually care about.
Now it doesn't. I mean, it will always have some scope of tolerance but it's range is lowering. The point of the whole method is, that there is on average one novel SNP by 3 generations and it works almost every time. It can change on various factors but not drastically, like Y-STR's.


Plague was in anatolia mostly, and EAST balkans. Less developed areas were not affected that much (as is always the case).
Even if mostly the port cities were struck - it's enough. It's not always about everyone dying but a chaos, economical crisis, unability to send and supply an army.


All the evidence is that much bigger historical migrations that were europe-shaking has little or no effect on local dna!
Quite brave hypothesis. Well, I can mostly agree.That was the case in Spain and Italy where germanic influences seem to be lower that you would think of. But those areas were populous, whereas places which are now the most slavic in Balkans- were not that much. Slavs had easier work there. Otherwise, they probably would have got absorbed and ended up like a greek, thraco-illyrian or romance-speaking population. Or maybe not (the per analogiam case of Hungary)


So how on earth is this possible? Well, it's not really. There's literally a DOZEN cataclysmic events for modern greece and peloponnese and thrace and not in a million years would I believe they totally obliterated ALL local DNA.
They replaced it from the same population in any case, just a smaller one due to the obvious reasons.



he reality is most the people in this thread believe all west balkans DNA is absolute newcomer and all east balkans is 100% pure ancient greek, which is a complete joke. It has got to be the most exaggerated event in history, which locally is seen as biggest thing ever, but somehow is not even mentioned elsewhere.
Of course it's neither this nor that. Even Alboz are partially Slavic (though they mostly don't want to admit it, ignorant and prejudiced bastards)Even Slovenes are still significantly Balkan - but they are quite different from IVth century inhabitants.



The oldest forms of r1b and R are in India, but it's clear now that it did not originate in india. Natural selection, basically. Newest form of r1b is in basque territory. Maybe that's actually where r1b formed.
It almost has to be since it's now clear R* made it to the ameriancs from europe with clovis culture.
It's an R1*. But I still wait for aDNA from Americas with that haplo. And even more importantly - an autosomal scores!