View Full Version : The Truth About Martial Arts & Self-Defense
This article has an interesting take on martials arts in relation to self defense from one the leading self defense teachers, Peyton Quinn. It also provides some historical perspective on martial arts.
I understand that this series of articles is not going to appeal to very many martial arts school owners.
rmcat attendants smile with accomplishment However, I feel that we are all best served by the truth. But I also realize that nobody and certainly not I, seldom if ever sees the whole or absolute truth about anything.
After forty years of studying and teaching martial arts and spending the last twenty of those years teaching self-defense only, I feel I must communicate to the public in general that martial arts training is simply not true self-defense training for today's world.
Yet having said that I sincerely hope that I will not be misunderstood to be implying that martial arts is not well worth anyone's time and dedication to study, because it most certainly is worth that study.
Martial Arts has done a great deal for me in my life and on so many levels too.
I was inducted into the Black Belt Hall of Fame and awarded the Instructor of the Year Award in 2008 and I hold rank in three major martial arts. Martial Arts training really does have so many health benefits both physical and mental.
What I am simply saying here is that for most people classical martial arts
training will very seldom meet their self-defense needs in a crisis.
For economy of communication and clarity here I will phrase some ASSERTIONS often made about martial arts followed by the ACTUAL FACTS and thus the rebuttal to that assertion:
ASSERTION ONE: Martial Arts are the result of a thousand years off development and the techniques taught in them are the ones that were proven and survived on the battlefield.
ACTUAL FACT: False on every count. Empty-handed martial arts as we know them today are a very recent historical development. Karate was unknown in Japan until about 1920. Tae Kwon Do was consolidated into an art in 1950. Man is the tool user and he fights with weapons and always has and not bare hands and feet. No martial art has any true historical record or proven experience on any battlefield either and for this very same reason.
ASSERTION TWO: Asian Martial Arts Provide a Complete system of self-defense which when mastered is well sufficient for one's self-defense demands in most cases.
ACTUAL FACT: This is also fundamentally false. Empty-handed Asian Martial Arts largely developed from weapon arts long after the periods of civil war and fighting had ended (in Japan for one example). These unarmed martial arts were not directly developed for self-defense purposes either really. They were developed as cultural 'arts' and later 'sports'.
There creation was sometimes a means for some 'martial heritage families' to continue to make a living through teaching these cultural treasures. In this way these families also maintained their martial traditions after the habitual carrying of weapons such as the sword was generally forbidden and the Samurai class was legally dissolved in Japan at the later part of the nineteenth century.
Tae Kwon Do is a Korean form of Japanese karate, largely based on the Japanese style Shotokan. The Korean Patriot General Choi felt a Korean form of "karate" would be beneficial for a rebirth of Korean national pride after the defeat of the Japanese in the Second World War. The Japanese occupation of Korea was a rather brutal one and it was designed to eradicate all Korean culture and supplants it with Japanese culture.
General Choi, the basic founder and promoter of TKD saw the Japanese practicing karate during their military occupation of Korea. He changed the forms a bit so TKD could easily be identified as 'not being Japanese karate' but a Korean form and a Korean art.
The techniques and forms added to the Japanese karate (TKD) were not meant to add any self-defense value to the Japanese art form but were added simply to make it visually apparent that what was being seen practiced was Korean and not Japanese.
Later what self-defense value TKD did have was mostly lost when it became an Olympic sport and most all training followed the rules of that Olympic sport. Now I am not saying that there are not some tremendously powerful fighters turned out by TKD schools but that is much more the result of the individual and not the TKD training method or the training syllabus of the art.
Further still, a complete system of self-defense, if such a thing could exist, certainly would have to include much more than 'physical technique', such as how to kick or punch etc. Once a situation gets to that physical point in the real world you have an uncontrolled situation where anything can happen and regardless of ones martial skills.
The true objective of self-defense is to survive and escape death or serious injury from an attack. That objective is very clearly first and best accomplished by conflict avoidance which is made much more possible by knowing the ways of the human predators. That is how they think, how they chose their victims and thus how not to appear as an unattractive and ideally unacceptable victim to them. Self-Defense training must also include de-escalation and conflict avoidance training and skills.
Asian martial arts do not even address or acknowledge the need or existence of any of these critical survival self-defense skills at all. Instead Asian Martial Arts follows a syllabus almost wholly devoted to the practice of physical technique alone. The majority of that physical technique is wholly impractical for most people to employ effectively in an actual self-defense situation too.March Rmcat dates 26,27,28
ASSERTION THREE: The founders of these arts were proven masters of self-defense and knew exactly what they were doing in creating the techniques and training syllabus of their art
ACTUAL FACT: Few if any of the creators or founders of unarmed martial systems had ever been involved in any real fight at all in their entire lives. These arts were created in modern times and in societies more peaceful than ours are today. So about the only thing resembling an actual fight that most of these founders were ever involved with was an 'athletic contest' with another master in order to show the superiority of their style over that other master's style. And in so doing they aspired to acquire new students for their own system. It is essential to understand that no 'consensual athletic contest' such as this is a self-defense situation in any significant way at all.
ASSERTION FOUR: It is undeniable that martial arts training has created some extremely formidable fighters who would make very short work of the average untrained street assailant.
ACTUAL FACT: There is some clear and demonstrable truth to this assertion. But these people are the exception. The study of traditional martial arts fails most people in being able to apply it to an actual attack successfully.
Further, it is largely the proper mindset and personal physical qualities and attitudes of these individuals that allows them to make their martial arts training effective to an actual self-defense situation. And make no mistake here, the street thug is not untrained, he learned the best way possible and that is ' by doing it'. The street thug is very seldom in his 'first real fight' when he attacks someone.
However, if that someone he attacks is a martial arts trained person it is much more likely that this will be that 'martial arts persons' first 'real fight'.
THE REAL PROBLEM IN APPLYING MARTIAL ARTS EFFECTIVELY TO A REAL WORLD SELF-DEFENSE SITUATION:
I can say without any doubt what so ever exactly what this problem is and martial arts training very seldom, if ever, prepares the student for it properly at all.
That problem is the only thing one can absolutely count on occurring in any real self-defense situation too, and that is the problem with dealing with the powerful adrenal stress reaction.
Martial arts training almost always occur under non-adrenal circumstances. The training hall is correctly a place of respect and courtesy. The real world of violence and human predators certainly is not.
Even the most demanding tournaments with significant levels of physical contact do not approach the adrenal levels that actual combat engages in a person.
The repeatedly observed reality for this writer is that the adrenal stress reaction (to those not previously conditioned to it) will affect a decided loss of motor control; especially fine motor control that so many martial arts techniques demand. I have observed this for many years in training even very accomplished martial arts people in self-defense using 'scenario based training' and our RMCAT armored assailant instructors.
Once the conditions of an actual self-defense situation are authentically simulated by the instructor in a scenario, that is the body posture, verbal abuse and the body carriage and projection of true malevolent intent, etc, the 'body does not know the difference' and we see these adrenal affects display themselves every time.
When the instructor who is training the 'student' for adrenal stress management assumes and displays the same physiological cues of the actual human predator, the martial arts person and the previously untrained person are often indistinguishable in their fight performance against that armored assailant instructor.
To be frank here, even well trained black belts often flail ineffectually and seldom land any effective blows at all or defend themselves effectively in their first fight simulation scenario against the armored assailant. I feel that this would be their performance in their first real assault too.
You might reasonably imagine how "playing the role" of a real aggressor can affect these dysfunctional adrenal reactions in the student. The truthful and economical answer is both 'easily" and 'reliably'.
The adrenal release is not a voluntary action. It is autonomic and automatic, 'hard wired' response to the cues of danger. Thus if you authentically present those cues of danger then you will get the adrenal response. In twenty odd years I have never seen this fail.
The difference of course is how the student handles and manages that adrenal response. Since most of us are not accustomed to or experienced with 'life and death' situations and the adrenal rush most people are overcome by it. By this I mean they 'choke" or 'freeze up' and they are unable to use the martial technique they may have learned because they learned them under the non-adrenal state of martial arts study.
Now are there exceptions? Yes, there clearly are exceptions. If a student performs effectively in their first adrenal stress driven scenario there is almost always a single reason. That reason is because it's not their first adrenal stress driven 'fight'. They have had previous experience with the 'real thing' and the adrenal rush it elicits.
What the RMCAT fight simulation do is to provide that 'biochemical experience' without the dangerous experience of getting into a real attack!
The more modern training methodology of simulation and adrenal stress driven scenario-based training has scientifically proven itself superior to any other training method and in many different and varied fields.
Fighter pilots train in aircraft simulators, tank crews do the same in computer modeled tanks, commercial airline pilots are required to maintain their emergency skills through periodic simulator training to qualify and maintain their fight worthy status.
It should thus be no surprise that this simulation training methodology is superior when applied to unarmed self-defense training. More so than any alternative methodology including any Asian based martial arts systems.
This is precisely why I have employed the simulation based, adrenal stress driven scenario methodology in my self-defense classes for two decades now. It simply works!
In the next installment in this series we will look briefly at the martial arts business model itself and thus see its innate problems in offering true self-defense training.
We will also begin our examination of how adrenal stress conditioning provides benefits in every aspect of one's personal and professional life and well part from self-defense issues entirely.
Always feel free to send me your questions or comments, I have real thick skin too so just speak up frankly! It is really my way to do so.
peytonq1@gmail.com
This particular article in this issue was written for another magazine but you are seeing it here for the first time.
I realize that it is very challenging to understand what we do here at RMCAT or its true power at all to change lives.
It is simply one of those things that must be experienced to really grasp and appreciate.
The RMCAT experience totally transcends the, well as Black Belt Magazine wrote "...The best self defense course existent".
RMCAT is a personal adventure in self-discovery and true self-actualization that will profoundly and very positively affect every area of your life experience
But at 60 now, I will not be doing this work forever people So truly if you have been thinking about it for years now is the time to apply! I do hope to meet more of you at our MARCH 26 training here in Colorado.
www.rmcat.com)
As a matter of fact on my personal "Bucket List" there is making a low budget action/adventure independent film on my ranch property here (my script is quirky and powerful (Hell just ask me J)!
I have dam near a million dollars invested in the RMCAT training facility and once I complete the financing and shoot my film here I think I may be going to move on from running RMCAT training.
But I am very proud and glad to see that RMCAT training principles and methods and drills have been adopted now in Israel as part of their 'Krav Maga' sylabus in so many schools there by instructors who came here to RMCAT from Israel to learn our methodology.
Please email me with any questions you have, I always respond.
Peyton Quinn
www.rmcat.com
Fintorah
01-17-2010, 05:06 PM
This is why you will never see "artistic" martial arts on the battlefield, or the MMA ring (and when you do, good judges see right through it); techniques such as Muy Thai and Jiu Jitsu are far more effective; all karate is is flailing body parts around, breaking weak pieces of kindling and brittle bricks that would crumble from being dropped; the poor man's gymnastics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRxhlJGYe1o
People still get the intended sense of awe from watching these primitive know-nothing do-nothings push small, tired cows around and break hollow sticks of bamboo over themselves. Asian culture is no more rich than the people who came up with it.
The Khagan
01-17-2010, 07:14 PM
Wasn't that from that really lame movie Never Back Down?
Psychonaut
01-17-2010, 09:46 PM
all karate is is flailing body parts around, breaking weak pieces of kindling and brittle bricks that would crumble from being dropped; the poor man's gymnastics.
ORLY?
The current UFC Welterweight champion Georges St. Pierre (who is principally a Kyokushin Karate fighter) would disagree, as would the current UFC Light Heavyweight champion Lyoto Machida, who is a Shotokan Karate fighter.
ORLY?
The current UFC Welterweight champion Georges St. Pierre (who is principally a Kyokushin Karate fighter) would disagree, as would the current UFC Light Heavyweight champion Lyoto Machida, who is a Shotokan Karate fighter.
I don’t think any of them are training anything resembling traditional Karate to prepare for their UFC fights. The truth might be that St. Pierre and Machida are exceptional athletes who once a long time ago trained Karate. Machida has a funny Karate stand style though.
Quinn is right; but what he fails to mention is that the overwhelming majority of Martial Arts schools that still concentrate upon singular genre training (e.g., Karate) are filled to the rafters with little kids who are there to learn discipline. Also, Quinn talks as if he invented adrenal stress driven scenario-based training in Martial Arts - which he did not: Brazilian schools, as the bastion over the last 50 years for every evolutionary leap in the Martial Arts, have been utilising adrenal stress driven scenario-based training. Adrenal stress driven scenario-based training began in the States aproximately a decade later in southern California, and branched-out to the rest of the country in small pockets here and there. And then comes the UFC and stylistic hybridisation where adrenal stress driven scenario-based training is part and parcel to actually, and really, fighting all of the time in full and semi-full contact training.
Joe Rogan made a comment once, about 5 or so years ago, that I found particularly poignant: He said, We have learned more about what actually works in a real fight in the last 7 years than we have in the previous 700. And that is very real. I think it's pretty cool that we, today, live amongst the toughest human beings (mano a mano) that have ever walked the earth.
This video sort of proves Quinn's point. I guess this guy was just some loony who walked into the dojo claiming to have been taught Karate by Jesus.
Anyway, he holds his own just fine for quite awhile; then watch as the 'Traditional' Karate goes out the window, and the instructor starts doing what actually works.
*Warning: Kind of graphic.
8zQi0aT_o0g
Germanicus
01-18-2010, 09:47 PM
This video sort of proves Quinn's point. I guess this guy was just some loony who walked into the dojo claiming to have been taught Karate by Jesus.
Anyway, he holds his own just fine for quite awhile; then watch as the 'Traditional' Karate goes out the window, and the instructor starts doing what actually works.
*Warning: Kind of graphic.
8zQi0aT_o0g
Interesting video, if i had fought that guy it would have been the same sort of fight, until the he started to jump around doing kicks, i would have tried doing more foot sweeps introducing high axe kicks in his face and chest.
Obviously the target for a quick finish is always always the nose...:)
This video sort of proves Quinn's point. I guess this guy was just some loony who walked into the dojo claiming to have been taught Karate by Jesus.
Anyway, he holds his own just fine for quite awhile; then watch as the 'Traditional' Karate goes out the window, and the instructor starts doing what actually works.
*Warning: Kind of graphic.
8zQi0aT_o0g
The Dojo owner is one sick psycho fuck. :mad:
Germanicus
01-18-2010, 10:16 PM
The Dojo owner is one sick psycho fuck. :mad:
Not so, i trained under an English Kung Fu instructor in Telford who would have allowed that fight in his dojo.:thumb001:
Not so, i trained under an English Kung Fu instructor in Telford who would have allowed that fight in his dojo.:thumb001:
The Jesus guy was mentaly disturbed Germanicus!
Germanicus
01-18-2010, 10:23 PM
It served 3 things... the guy needed a lesson, the Black belt needed a workout, the dojo earned respect from the whole episode, martial arts is a form that needs to be practiced by students taught by experts. The beaten guy will never forget the lesson or the fight..:)
Protip: The crazy Jesus guy died.
December
01-19-2010, 06:05 AM
This video sort of proves Quinn's point. I guess this guy was just some loony who walked into the dojo claiming to have been taught Karate by Jesus.
Anyway, he holds his own just fine for quite awhile; then watch as the 'Traditional' Karate goes out the window, and the instructor starts doing what actually works.
*Warning: Kind of graphic.
8zQi0aT_o0g
This is completely sick...
The Dojo owner is one sick psycho fuck. :mad:
Beating a mentally disturbed (and visibly fragile) person, is not only sick, is a proper conduct of a worm.
The Jesus guy was mentaly disturbed Germanicus!Indeed it was, and the "dojo" owners are a bunch of retards. And cowards. Beating a knocked out opponent is completely out of any rules of dignity.
It served 3 things... the guy needed a lesson, the Black belt needed a workout, the dojo earned respect from the whole episode, martial arts is a form that needs to be practiced by students taught by experts. The beaten guy will never forget the lesson or the fight..:)
It served one thing only. To prove that this dojo and wtf american version of martial art they practice, they are surely out of any international jurisdiction. These fuckers would have been banned and prohibited from teaching. Whoever recorded this and put it into the Youtube is surely part of this back garage of bouncers.
Sickening sadistic cocky bastards, taking advantage of an imbecile inside of a dojo. A dojo is supposed to be a sacred place. This beating has contours of evilness and debauchery. People like these who impersonate martial art Senpais and Senseis should have the same treatment, but with a crowbar in their teeth.
Edit: Yeah, the american flag in the background and a blue uniform!! Blue karate SF2 style uniforms. Only in America, baby!!!
December
01-19-2010, 06:20 AM
This article has an interesting take on martials arts in relation to self defense from one the leading self defense teachers, Peyton Quinn. It also provides some historical perspective on martial arts.
This Quinn is clearly an americano martial artist. First he says lots of inaccuracies then he speaks like a frustrated sensei or something. "Taekwondo = Japanese Karate!!" ROFL... There are accounts of Taekwondo since the beginning of Korean history as far as 3000 years' old, and it came from China, not from Japan. This idiot must have read something about Hapkido, which is indeed a form of Aikido.
And Karate in Japan with some decades only??? LOL... even if we don't consider Ryu Kyu part of Japan at a certain time, what did Samurais practiced bare hands?... fruit chopping? Holy shit.
If he thinks that martial arts are just a form of entertainmente I would have enjoyed seeing this multi-blackbelt star being head-chopped by Masutatsu Oyama or sensei Kanazawa. Those are fucking real-life Tong Pos! Maybe he should try to face a good Jiu Jitsu fight with the Gracie clan. Or Krav Maga. Don't go any further...
In Portugal we have this for Quinn:
gSDSsereOdg
I dedicate minute 0:30 for Quinn and those cocky "dojo" owners.
Edit: Yeah, the american flag in the background and a blue uniform!! Blue karate SF2 style uniforms. Only in America, baby!!!
http://brooklynskeptic.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/1232386205451.jpg
Whatever bitch, why don't you try saying that shit in my dojo? My pet negro will beat your ass unconscious and then beat you some more!!!!!!
I'll be the guy in blue waiting to step off camera.
December
01-19-2010, 06:34 AM
http://brooklynskeptic.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/1232386205451.jpg
Whatever bitch, why don't you try saying that shit in my dojo? My pet negro will beat your ass unconscious and then beat you some more!!!!!!
I'll be the guy in blue waiting to step off camera.
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/11/6/633615860272847842-darthvader2012.jpg
December
01-19-2010, 07:29 AM
XTPKKkstTAk
Rulz! :cool:
Groenewolf
01-19-2010, 07:55 AM
lnvnT7ayyhU
What an bragging poser :D . This are scenes I love, where the one doing all these flashy moves get taken down by single blow :thumb001: .
Fortis in Arduis
01-19-2010, 08:07 AM
Juicy.
Yes, apparently there was a police investigation:
wObjWdQBeA4
Was anyone else unshocked?
I am such a numb old bag these days.
The Dojo owner is one sick psycho fuck. :mad:
Vietnam did that to some people. :D
This is completely sick...
It's a truckload of Fail, that's for sure.
Edit: Yeah, the american flag in the background and a blue uniform!! Blue karate SF2 style uniforms. Only in America, baby!!!
http://www.dailyramblings.com/blog/images/martinkove.jpg
XTPKKkstTAk
Rulz! :cool:
I'd grab a single leg put them on their head and choke them out with their blackbelt.:D
Traditional Karate only works amongst those who agree to only use Karate.
Peyton
01-21-2010, 05:09 PM
I have never claimed to have invented adrenal stress scenario based training. In fact, in all my books and DVD’s I make point of correcting that misconception. The reason so many people have come to think of me as the ‘inventor” is that I was a large part of popularizing it and making it ‘known’ and I developed it into a comprehensive self-defense training program.
Look at this way, scenario based training images can be seen on 2000 year old frescos on of the Coliseum in Rome. So it is nothing new. Adrenal stress training was certainly not ‘invented’ in southern California in the 20th century either.
Another way of looking at and understanding this is to consider Buckmaster Fuller the great architect. Many attribute to him the development of the ‘Geodesic dome’. But that does not make sense as the geodesic is a natural geometric shape it can’t be ‘invented’ any more than one could say this person or that invented the triangle or square. Images of geodesic dome can even be found in ancient Arabic algebraic studies.
I am not personally aware of any ‘martial arts” or classical system that employs adrenal stress, scenario based training either. And with 40 years in the industry I believe I surely would have it was there.
Brazilian Jujitsu certainly does not. I t is true some great and celebrated Brazilian Jujitsu masters like Ricardo Murgel have come to take my training and then wanted us to teach people to instruct adrenal stress, scenario based training in Brazil.
We were happy and proud to do so too, and frankly to be asked alone. And so we did about 10 years ago. But I do not think it is then accurate to say that because a self-defense class involving adrenal stress scenario based training is taught in some of these BJJ schools now, that BJJ training itself involves adrenal stress, scenario based training as it does not..
I have worked with the Gracies and their cousin the Machadas and if these training methods were part of BJJ I would certainly know that.
But the much greater misconception I find is the very widespread concept that martial arts traing is self-defense training, and it simply is not.
Martial Arts is “art” and not ‘application’ really. Sure I have seen tremendously effective physical fighters come out of any number of styles of MA training, but they are the exceptions really.
It was mostly their personal attributes that they brought to their MA study from the begging that made them great fighters and not so much the style they studied.
But beyond this, MA concentrates almost entirely on the physical technique skill aspect of self-defense but the physical aspect, the technique aspect, I would put as perhaps on the third rung down on the ladder of importance in successfully defending oneself in the real world. The absolute most important skill is to know how the human predators operate so you can successfully avoid being chosen as their victim and avoid a physical fight in the fist place. Traditional martial arts does not address this reality at all.
Indeed any system of instruction that teaches only physical technique is not a self-defense traing program. This of course is one reason I do not confuse martial arts training with true self-defense training. Martial Arts has some value in self-defense, although most martial arts techniques from any system have no real place in a real fight, the core and simple ones do and you can learn them in an MA class.
Finally, another serious misconception about self-defense training is partly related to this idea that self-defense, or even actual real fighting is all about ‘techniques” or Physical technique skill. From this false premise it is understandable why the NHB athletic contest, such as The Vale De Tudo, UFC etc are somehow ‘models” or “evidence’ of whT techniques might work in real fight.
While I surely admire anyone that trains and performs well enough and has the heart to step into those rings, no athletic contest of nay type simulates or reflects the reality of an actual fight.
Think about it all the operant and decisive element of an actual fight are deliberately removed from the prize ring to isolate just one variable and that is best and who has the most effective technique skill. But this is seldom the decisive factor in an actual fight outside the prize ring.
Consider this alone. In a prize ring the two fighters are in an athletic contest with rules and it is a consensual contest. They know exactly when and where and who they will fight too. They know there will be “rounds” and referee. Beyond that they know there will only be the on opponent and he will not suddenly get help form third or fourth attacker. They know no weapons will be pulled and all the sharp objects or walls, fire hydrants, parked cars, lamp posts that so often end real fights in the real world are of course totlly absent in the prize ring, which is also padded and absolutely flat.
None of these important things are true in an actual fight. I would say for most people the most critical one is psychological too. Imagine you are in a bar or whatever and a person you never saw before looks at you and says “What the hell are you looking at shit face?”
Well I can assure you this is going to automatically engage the adrenal response in you on some level. That is exactly why the bully odes this too, that is starts out with the verbal abuse, he knows it will impair your ability to think or otherwise defense yourself.
Indeed, if you react properly, that is assertively and not with anger or fear and speak to him clearly and calmly and you nether insult or challenge him in any way, then most times he will not go any further with you and there will be no physical fight. Now learning and practicing doing that in an authentic adrenal stress driven scenario, this is a essential parts of any self-defense training.
Consequently f program instruction does not involve this traing, then how can it be seen or referred to as true self-defense training?
Good people I am 60yearsold now. I have had to fight for my life in the past and I have been cut, shot and attacked many times in my younger profession and service. Even in straight civilian life I have seen two fights end in a homicide that was I am sure not really intended by either the kier or the deceased. I have seen two persons killed by knife attacks.
It is not a game out there of any sort, it is not an athletic contest, people die, they are crippled for life and they go to prison for many years over real violence. No matter what you know, no matter what art you may have ‘mastered’ or think you have mastered, you too can be killed or worse out there. Anyone can be beaten and anyone can be killed.
Remember any real fight always has the potential of homicide. It isn’t like in the prize ring at all, in the real thing primitive ‘killer instinctual’ forces are released. You should develop your knowledge of the predator’s ways and how to avoid and de-escalate conflict. This will more likely keep you alive, off life support or crippled or blinded than any marital arts technique or system that you may ever learn.
Now be honest with yourself, what is your real objective and interest in martial arts or self-defense? Is it really to stay alive and whole, or deep down do you think ‘it will never happen to you’? If it is the last, then nothing you ever study in martial arts will ever likely be of any use to in an actual attack.
This is because the more decisive, the most decisive element is correct mind-set if it gets physical and thinking it won’t really happen to you makes it not possible to develop that functional combat mindset or or effective conflict avoidance skills either.
peace be with you all.
Peyton Quinn
PS: I found the video of the beating of the mentaly disturbed person was clealry a crime and his criminal assailant should be prosecuted at law.
The metally ill man said "I am not a fighter" it was not truly a consentual contest in my view at all but a criminal assault.
It seemed to me the meantaly ill man tried to stop the fight once it was apparent that the frustrated child in the white gi was attacking him physically.
Further there can be some genuine doubt if the mentally ill man was mentally competent to give his consent in any case. Just as a leaglly underage girl can not give her conset to sex and thus any such 'consnet" does not absolve an adult from the charge of statutaory rape.
The owner of the school, or the man present who apparently was the owner is guilty as well. This kind of "dangerious child" should not be allowed to teach anything and should be tried at law for allowing this to occur and actually assisting this crime.
If indeed the metally ill man died form the beating it was then a case of second degree murder. Peyton
Hi Peyton,
I have never claimed to have invented adrenal stress scenario based training. In fact, in all my books and DVD’s I make point of correcting that misconception. The reason so many people have come to think of me as the ‘inventor” is that I was a large part of popularizing it and making it ‘known’ and I developed it into a comprehensive self-defense training program.
You branded it. It always existed in some greater or lesser form in every dojo that trains via full contact.
Look at this way, scenario based training images can be seen on 2000 year old frescos on of the Coliseum in Rome. So it is nothing new. Adrenal stress training was certainly not ‘invented’ in southern California in the 20th century either.
No one said it was. However, after Mitsuyo Maeda taught Carlos Gracie, the crucial importance of 'reality-based' training became infused and refined in 'Gracie Jiu-Jitsu'; and was then taught in SO.Cal., and subsequently hybridised into MMA which stresses the desensitisation of the flight/freeze response, as well as focusing the fight response with repeat stimulation via full contact scenarios.
I am not personally aware of any ‘martial arts” or classical system that employs adrenal stress, scenario based training either. And with 40 years in the industry I believe I surely would have it was there.
Then you are taking a very limited tack on what adrenal stress scenario based training constitutes: Can I take the short drive to Miletich Fighting Systems and be put in a mock situation where somone is trying to carjack me? No, but I can be put in identical stess-inducing scenarios.
Brazilian Jujitsu certainly does not.
:eek: You're trying to say that when Matt Hughes ripped Royce Gracie's rotator cuff to shreds and Royce didn't blink...that he wasn't controlling the fear response?
... But I do not think it is then accurate to say that because a self-defense class involving adrenal stress scenario based training is taught in some of these BJJ schools now, that BJJ training itself involves adrenal stress, scenario based training as it does not..
Then you are left with the burden of explicating the essential difference in the control of the fight/flight/freeze (fear) response - governed largely by the adrenal gland - in your vs. other training methods. I contest that one does not exist: The reaction is what it is and there are multiple ways to teach control of the response.
I have worked with the Gracies and their cousin the Machadas and if these training methods were part of BJJ I would certainly know that.
:eek:Now your trying to sell DVD's:D Good for you:thumbs up.
(A little) more seriously, you're taking waaaaayyyyy to hard a semantic tack on the thing: Keeping cool under surprise (a.k.a controlling the adrenal response to fear) is fundamental to Mixed Martial Arts. The amygdala, along with the hypothalamus and adrenal glands simply do not know the difference between some douchebag in a bar and a deeply sunk rear naked choke.
P.s. Great to have you aboard, but you might introduce yourself. :)
Peyton
01-22-2010, 02:41 AM
Suut, I am not familar with the forum yet so I apprecitte your indulgence with me here.
I must accept your suggestion that I am taking 'far to semantic tact' here too. I have been doing this special trainging so long I suppose I see it so very clearly as being distinct from all other types and training methodologies that perhaps I take that 'narrow track' you speak of.
Again while I have trained ring fighters yes, that is not my focus at all really. I do not consider anyone I have prepared for a ring fight as either training them for self-defense or providing them with adrenal stress conditioning. I am training them for the ring, for a specific atheltic contest and a few times a specific opponent in the ring too.
There is iitle relationship there to training somebody for real self-defense situations. No self-defense situation occurs in the prize ring after all.
Training ordinary people in self-defense is totally diffrent to me and this has always been my primary focus, almost an exclusive focus really. So I can get myopic here I suppose.
To me adrenal stress conditioning in the context of self-defense training means scenario based training involving an instuctor who acts and behaves and sepaks (woofs) in the senario with the student just as real human predators does. When this is doen authetically as we do I have seen good black belts and even a few experinced ring fighters choke up and freeze.
Yet a few of the pro fighters have the oppositte problem, they 'go off' prematurely under thstrwess of our scenrios. They come here with but one response to being disrepsected, and that is immediatte physical attack. When they eave they have learned and orcticed opitons, not they have 'choices'. To me that is true self-defense training.
These guys are now far less likely to go to prison or the morgue if confronted or even attacked. Now how can that not be anything but true self-defense training
So evryone does not get the same course on instruction here. Because ther needs are different and so is their previous expereince. In the same clas i may have woma who weighs 115 lbs and nver seen an act of violence except on tv or film along with a NAVY SEAL. Both of these peoplewill laeve here with far greater self-defsne skills and that means conflict avoidance skills as well as physical fighting skills than when they arrived.
This means that to me aslef-defsne program must involve foul and abusive and challenging language, body postures and the presentation of all the viseral cues of true hostile and potentialy assaultive person to the student.
I do not see that in BJJ, Karate, TKD, or any other classical martial art.
To me this scenario based training is so esential to self-defense training to the degree that if program does not involve it, to me it is not self defense training.
It may be very strong martial arts training though and even of the highest caliber. But in my view it is not self-defense training or adrenal stress conditioning in the context of self-defense training.
As I said I of course have real admiration for the dedciated ring fighters given they comnduct themselves honrably in the ring and resepct their opponent and most all do as I have observbed. , especially people of the caliber you mention. But the prize ring is not very relvant to me to self-defesne skills or training, or slef-defsne itslef outside of the prize ring.
I feel best and most valuable training ordinary people, be they black belts and school owners or housewives or even somewhat timid persons how to avoid being chosen as victim and to de-escalate potential conlfict and be asserttive in a way that discourages thier being assaulted.
The failing al that to throw that switch and go 110% kill until there is no more need for that. In my methodology though the people always discover their inner survival intincts and that is the key to everything.
Very honestly I know that one can not imagine or undertsand really what my course is like from reading my books or other's discussons on it or wathcing a DVD of the RMCAT fights or a TV show showing what we do.
It just has to be biochemically experienced and by that I mean that is until one does, steps out their with armored assilant and the woof etc, it you can not i feel truly be grasped it or its power to change people so very quickly. It is not easily understood or 'made real to them" unitl they do it themsleves.
No prize ring can do that. In fact, most prize ring pro fighters may not even need what I provide in the first place, but most people truly do and it goes beyond, and so far beyond self-defense training too.
It is journey of true self-discovery for them and then it improves and touches every aspect of their life totally apart form the conventional concepts of self-defense situations.
I ma not just in the self-defsne traing buisness, I see that as extraordinarily powerful vehickle for self-improvment training and real self-actuliazation.
Oh yes, as far as my trying to sell DVD's well ok, but not very much .To be dead frank I am more trying to get people into my RMCATtraining beacsue I have seen for years what it does for them..
On top of that I won't be doing it too many years longer. Thnaks for ther welocme and evryone do not hesitate to be very frank with me, somehow I do not think that going to be an isue though (:. I have the rhino hide and at my age I don't get too upset easily at all. I am not the least bit ashamed or embarresed to say that my main mission is to help people if I can. Peyton
Peyton
01-22-2010, 02:44 AM
By the way, what is the origin of the great poem you have on your posts?
I have seen something like it before I feel, but I can't remember where and that maybe was just the same idea by a different poet. I would like to know its author. Peyton
Thanks for the gracious and unpretentious response, Peyton - we could use more of that here.
First, let me start by saying that it was never my intention to minimise either yourself or what you do for people. Indeed, I have in the past and would again recommend that any and all interested people take a look at what you have to offer: It works.
The only issue I take is largely academic, and it is this: If Martial Arts (which would include modern MMA by definition) does not 'prepare' an individual for a surprise altercation outside of the ring; and the specific training that you provide does - it follows logically that if the individual you have trained were in a surprise altercation with a trained Mixed Martial Artist, that individual would be able, the overwhelming majority of the time, to dispatch with the Mixed Martial Artist.
With all due respect, there is no way I think or believe this to be true.
But, let me emphasize that it is not because I do not think your specific tack on controlling the fear response does not work.
By the way, what is the origin of the great poem you have on your posts?
I have seen something like it before I feel, but I can't remember where and that maybe was just the same idea by a different poet. I would like to know its author. Peyton
It is from a book called "horse, wheel, language" that I was turned-on to by the forum member Liffrea.
P.s. I really hope you stick around. You'd be an asset here.
Peyton
01-22-2010, 03:28 PM
Let me relate a true story about just such an encounter. I teach a course called Aikido for Self-Defense in Reno Nevada once a year.
They are wonderful people there at Aikdo of Reno. My course is largely about de-escaltion and adrenal stress conditioning, verbal boundary setting, the modus operandi of human predators and 'getting used' to verbal abuse (woofing) etc.
The phsycial part is very basic Aikido by using the enviornment as a weapon as the the 'finisher" if the situation dmeands it (as in he has weapon). That is. I.E tossing the attaker into a parked car,fire hydrant, a telephone pole, a wall, down a flight of stairs, or running them across the floor into some other object until you get there. etc. (physics of materials).
They have a good sense of humor there and good sense of 'commuity" too and so I will sometimes joke as i am instructing how to get the 'directional launch right' into the wall etc, and so I might say jokingly "In the true spirt of Aikido of course"
After this class one night I was eating at a resturant/ night club with Sensie Vic who studied for 10 years in Japan (and is Rokodan). We were talking about just the issue you raise.
First let me say that I in fundamental agreement with you. A real NHB fighter (I hope would avoid the street fight) but if forced I think he would deal with the attack in very short order too.
But what I am going to relate now is an actual case of what I try to constantly commuicate to everyone about the diffrence between an actual fight vs a ring contest.
There was a local Nevada man who was doing well in the NHB circuit. He had become a a 'local celebreity' and he was at this dining/night club dance place we were at.
Hw was In line to enter the club dance floor part, this NHB figher was waiting his turn like everyone else in the short line.
Another man in line recognized the NHB fighter and began what I call "woofing" on him.
Woofing is the predator's way of verbaly challenging and abuseing someone to see how they will react. It is also meant to 'prep' the potential victim for a possible physical attack by adrenalizing them as the human predators know this impairs the person's motor control and higher brain funtions such that their abilty to defend themselves is reduced.
But the physical attack may not go forward though depending on how the person being woofed on responds.If the aggresor sees their would be victim is not ratteled and not in denial of what is occurying either and that they are 'in control of themsleves', then the woofer will not as a rule attack them.
The NHB guy 'played the insults off' for awhile. But as the woofer got more beligerent and truly challenging and very graphicaly insulting, the NHB man got angerd and he suddenly dived for the verbaly abusive man's legs and took him to the ground and instantly had him in a solid figure four.
Then, a second man stepped out from nowhere and powerfully and fluidly kicked the NHB figher in the side of the head. It was total blindside move the NHB guy could never see coming and well excuted too. It was only the one kick he got off though as security was right there now and they restrained him at once.
But the NHB fighter never entered the prize ring again. His jaw was shattered and the his right orbital socket was fractured chageing the occular pressure in his eye and that permanently damaged his vision (though I believe and hope not as bad it might have been) .
My friend this is what I a constantly am trying to get across to people, it is not a game out there when its real. Peope get seriously hurt, permanently injured and killed and others go to prision.
The ambsuher never imagined he would spend years in prison anymore than the NHB fighter imagined this would be his last 'fight'.
I wish the NHB fighter had been more in control of himself as he could have avoided the entire incident. But he allowed the 'adrenal flush' of the guy's insults and tauenting to anger him such that he was goded into his physcial attack. I try to show people in my classes that "Either you are in control of yourself or someone else is!"
So I feel self-defense instruction must teach avoidance, de-escaltion and the modus operandi of predators and the students need to practice these skills in a realistc adrenal stress driven scenario based fashion.
THe Nevadan NHB figher had all the phsycial and technical skills he ever needed and more. But his self-defense skills were unfortunately and tajicaly under developed. THis is why he was hurt.
Peyton
After all those years of training, meditations etc bullshit all these oriental "martial" arts masters get their living shit beaten out of them by a guy who did boxing or wrestling for several months. Seen that, and not once (especially lulz when they try to use their Karate and whatever in football hool fights).
I did Graeco-Roman wrestling since i was 14, and box for about a year (quit cause it's bad for head :D). I've seen people come to gym and claim that they're 124902341234-dan black belts in SUPER DRAGON RYU style, and then are used to wipe the floor. All champs in MMA, UFC et cetera are wrestling/boxing hybrids, nothing else.
P.S. Fedor Emelianenko disapproves.
http://img.crazys.info/files/i/2008.10.20/1224502788_x_1715c641.jpg
Neanderthal
01-22-2010, 06:35 PM
After all those years of training, meditations etc bullshit all these oriental "martial" arts masters get their living shit beaten out of them by a guy who did boxing or wrestling for several months. Seen that, and not once (especially lulz when they try to use their Karate and whatever in football hool fights).
I did Graeco-Roman wrestling since i was 14, and box for about a year (quit cause it's bad for head :D). I've seen people come to gym and claim that they're 124902341234-dan black belts in SUPER DRAGON RYU style, and then are used to wipe the floor. All champs in MMA, UFC et cetera are wrestling/boxing hybrids, nothing else.
P.S. Fedor Emelianenko disapproves.
http://img.crazys.info/files/i/2008.10.20/1224502788_x_1715c641.jpg
So true, nothing like the good ol' Boxing; I used to practice boxing for 2 years, had 3 amateur fights but I quit, not my thing, I won the fights tho :D
Then I trained ValeTudo for about six months until I had a lesson in my elbow from a bad elbow lock. Im considering to get back tho.
With all my respect, these Karate-Double-Dragon-Kung-Fu-Wu-Shu farfetch'd crap doesnt work in a ring, even less in a real life combat situation.
With all my respect, these Karate-Double-Dragon-Kung-Fu-Wu-Shu farfetch'd crap doesnt work in a ring, even less in a real life combat situation.
That's probably because most of these hot-shots never learned how to properly channel their inner qi, and maybe it never was for them in the first place. If you are truly motivated from the inside you can accomplish anything. :wink
Neanderthal
01-22-2010, 06:52 PM
That's probably because most of these hot-shots never learned how to properly channel their inner qi, and maybe it never was for them in the first place. If you are truly motivated from the inside you can accomplish anything. :wink
I doubt a motivated qi can help you out when a freakin cholo punchs you in the face on the god damn subway trying to rob you out; You'll had no time for Katas or focusing your qi on those kind of situations. :(
That's probably because most of these hot-shots never learned how to properly channel their inner qi, and maybe it never was for them in the first place. If you are truly motivated from the inside you can accomplish anything. :wink
I carry some .38 caliber qi inside my holster. They're +P so it's a hot-shot.
Peyton
01-23-2010, 06:09 PM
I agree boxing is strong martial art well adapted to real world fighting too.
However I have to point this out too, and I see it as boxing primary weakness in an actual fight, not in the ring ( and boxing does not have many weaknesses either)
Boxers tape thier hands and wear a glove in the ring. They learn to strike very powerfuly with this protection on in their training.
But if they strike like that in a real fight there is good chance they would break bones in their hands without that protection (tape wrapping their hands and a glove).
AS some of you know who have read my books or whaterr in the mid 70's I was a bouncer in rather large rowdy bar in New Mexico. Later I was the lead cooler there with 8 bouncers working for me.There would br 800 patrons there on a hot Saturady night.
I saw many serious injuries to people's hands who were boxing trained and got into fights and hit the other guy with a closed fist to the head.
The head is hard bony skull, the hands are small fragile bones, it is as simple as that.
It is true that the boxing training is very good and works at making the impact more 'one-way". but it does not always work that way in the real world and with no tape or glove a person can bust up thier hands with a closed fist strike to the head of the other guy.
Now even back then, in the 70's I had black belts in three arts ( Wado Ryu Karate, Judo and White Crane KF I also wrestled in high school on the wrestling team). But I do not have too many illusions about this stuff, and so when I had to fight a guy as a cooler who truned out to be a boxer, these were always my toughest fights without doubt.
The karate and kung fu guys were not a problem for me and so I did not feel I was in any real danger with them, but not so boxers.
The karate/King fu guys woud jumnp around and hiss and sometimes scream and throw ridiculus kicks and such (that were often were far short or were easily side steped) and so I would feel I was in no danger.
Hence, while they were 'attacking" me with their karate or kung fu I would be talking to them calmly and telling them 'we don't have to do this man ' and that "i saw" they were skilled and that "I did not want to fight them".
Oddly enough most times they would stop and only every now and then did i have to drop them.
But boxers were different, they got close and threw fast powerfull and well chained combinations. I knew to never 'box with a boxer' though. So I just shifted my weight to absorb the blow and totally covered up.
Then I got the pace and rythym of ther boxer's shots. Then I'd catch the next punch on the hard turning top of my skull and break his hand.
There were times when I'd see stars (purple lights on a the black backgroud). But the boxer was finished after he broke his hand.
A few times I'd catch them in miidle of their combination so unfortunately their next shot sometimes impacted when their hand was already broken. I admit I did not like that as it could cause them some likely permanet injury striking on an alrready broken hand.
But my techniue for boxers did not always work every time either.
However, if I caught their hand on the top of my skull they would at least split their nuckles. Most times I could then dance back and then they would know their hand was hurt,
Even if it was mostly just psychologically they were not fighitng as furiously as before with the hurt hand. I'd shout "man your hurt let's just stop this shit now, I don't want to fight your trained and too dam fast!".
THis most times worked and we stopped the sensless battle,
But a few times they went 'ape shit' when I said this and attacked in na ape shit manner.
Well they attacked in an ape shit manner and so it was not the former tight, controlled and effective boxing they had shown before.
In this case I could often throw them judo or jusjitsu style into the big wooden roof supporting beam or the bar edge or sometimes the wall. But the wall was plasterboard and when it shattered it absorbed the strike a bit and also the mangenment did not like the damage either.
Let me tell you, one reason some people (not all!) dress in white pajamas and jump around on mats and scream at each other etc, with liitel or no contact is that they are not willing tot kaer the punishment and pain that boxing training involves.
But having said all that, I also want you to know that after 40 years in MA and SD industry plus and having been too many parts of the world and seen so many fighting stiyles, I know there are some MA peope who can really fight.
There are people out there who can make their karate or other martial arts work in an actual fight. They are the few and far between it is true, but they can be very formidable too. Peyton
Concerning hitting a grown man in the head with your fist you are absolutely right; it is a questionable endeavor. Aiming and hitting someone on the nose works as a cushion for the fist though, if you manage to hit it right. The unsuspected head butt and the cross suspension of the neck shirt collar of your opponents plus the age old practice of pushing idiots to the ground might work. All this is silly when considering your statement that Man is weapon user and has been sense for ewer. Self defense using your hands is shit and recommending women to rely on that it is shit ( a small concealed knife, pepper-spray or calling the attention of others is the only way) and the practical way of self defense might be rubbish as attack and hurting the other one is the key to any success. Anyway, thanks for the best comments on the subject I have seen Peyton.
Germanicus
01-29-2010, 10:41 PM
I agree with Peyton's comments totally, here is an example from my own experience of martial arts training used in a real life scenerio.
Perhaps it was 12 years ago, that would have made me 39 at the time, i was a retired martial artist, was trained in full contact Karate ECKA.
On a night out in Leeds city centre at around 1.30AM standing roughly half way in a queue of maybe 30 waiting for a taxi with my friend, a couple of guys walked up to 2 men in the front, they dragged them out and started to beat them up.
One of the men was knocked down by the bigger guy who turned round to help his buddy floor the other guy, they both started to kick his head as he lay on the floor like a football.
The bigger guy moved to the other fallen man who was on his feet staggering, seeing the man still on the floor was still being kicked in the head i motioned my friend who i was with to help me stop the guy kicking.
My friend did not move, adrenilin kicked in and i moved quickily and cautiously to the kicking guy, but monitoring where the bigger guy was over the road.
Firstly i shouted to the guy who was still kicking the guys head to stop or he would kill the man, he did not stop, so i offered him my show of fists, he kindly obliged by stopping the kicking and engaging me in fisticuffs, i remember kicking him in the midsection and punching him in the mouth with a snap punch, the rest is a blur because it happened so fast.
The bigger guy came back from across the road and caught me in the mouth with a punch which split my lip, i took the punch but did not drop my guard as he expected me to.
Suddenly blue flashing lights, they ran off. Straight away the women in the taxi queue came running over and tended to me bleeding, and aiding the hurt man.
The women said to me "they were ashamed of all the rest of the men who was there for not helping and coming to my aid"
My reaction to help the downed man i believe to this day had saved him from death or severe brain damage. My bravery i suppose came from a confidence in my own ability in fighting, and to what i had been taught in the dojo.
lei.talk
04-08-2010, 12:28 PM
mma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu) in the real world: http://media.omfgif.com/gif/053158White_guy_gang_fight.gif
in contrast, stand-up fighting:
one key concept of maneuver warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuver_warfare) is that maneuver is traditionally thought of as a spatial concept, that is -
the use of maneuver so as to gain positional advantage.
sordida plebs can not be expected to honor code duello (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_duello)
*
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