View Full Version : Was Tolkien a pagan or a Catholic?
Murphy
01-18-2010, 05:25 PM
Well? Discuss.
Regards,
The Papist.
Wulfhere
01-18-2010, 05:28 PM
Well? Discuss.
Regards,
The Papist.
He was both.
Murphy
01-18-2010, 05:31 PM
He was both.
Expand further.
Regards,
The Papist.
Electronic God-Man
01-18-2010, 05:31 PM
He was definitely a Catholic.
His good friend C.S. Lewis was a pagan for some time, however...until Tolkien managed to get him to convert back to Christianity.
Murphy
01-18-2010, 05:32 PM
He was definitely a Catholic.
His good friend C.S. Lewis was a pagan for some time, however...until Tolkien managed to get him to convert back to Christianity.
And was rather furious when Lewis went Anglican :D! But don't forget Chestrton's role in Lewis' conversion!
Regards,
The Papist.
Wulfhere
01-18-2010, 05:33 PM
Expand further.
Regards,
The Papist.
I think I already have, on the other thread.
Electronic God-Man
01-18-2010, 05:34 PM
Tolkien's devout faith was a significant factor in the conversion of C. S. Lewis from atheism to Christianity, although Tolkien was dismayed that Lewis chose to join the Church of England.[81]
In the last years of his life, Tolkien became greatly disappointed by the reforms and changes implemented after the Second Vatican Council,[82] as his grandson Simon Tolkien recalls:
I vividly remember going to church with him in Bournemouth. He was a devout Roman Catholic and it was soon after the Church had changed the liturgy from Latin to English. My grandfather obviously didn't agree with this and made all the responses very loudly in Latin while the rest of the congregation answered in English. I found the whole experience quite excruciating, but my grandfather was oblivious. He simply had to do what he believed to be right.
This says C.S. Lewis was an atheist, but I definitely recall him talking about being a pagan and I thought he meant heathen not simply atheist.
Gooding
01-18-2010, 05:51 PM
JRR Tolkien was a Catholic and a devout one at that. LOL, apparently he was so Catholic that the innovations of Vatican II disappointed him and he stuck to his Latin during Mass while everybody else replied in English.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JRR_Tolkien#Religion
He was a Christian, as was Lewis, but their world-view and ideas (and their books) were strongly influenced by paganistic stratum of European culture.
Amapola
01-18-2010, 07:24 PM
He was a Catholic.
Matritensis
01-18-2010, 07:34 PM
He was an ardent catholic,there's no doubt about it.
Liffrea
01-18-2010, 08:57 PM
There is no serious doubt that Tolkien was Roman Catholic (read his letters).
However his creation of Arda and his other works primarily within Germanic mythology express clear Heathen themes, not least his “theory of courage”. Tolkien’s relationship with the material he worked with is a fascinating subject in itself, he often wrote concepts that he himself as a Catholic could not possibly countenance but that he knew formed the Heathen world of northern Europe, which he devoted his life to bringing back to the fore. He certainly ranks alongside men like Jung, Von List and Nietzsche as awakeners of Heathen thought in modern Europe.
nisse
01-19-2010, 04:17 AM
Who cares what he was? :ohwell:
His books sure aren't :D
Eldritch
01-19-2010, 04:57 PM
Anybody who's read anything about Tolkien's life knows he was a Catholic. He approached creating Middle Earth with the same care he saw God taking when creating the world.
Now what, if anything, this means is another discussion.
Anthropos
01-19-2010, 06:16 PM
He wrote tales. So what? Why do you ask? Is there anything in his books that you find to be at odds with being a Roman Catholic?
... Is there anything in his books that you find to be at odds with being a Roman Catholic?
The actual question may be this: Is there anything that you, Anthropos, find in his books to be at odds with Heathenry...?;)
JRR Tolkien was a Catholic and a devout one at that. LOL, apparently he was so Catholic that the innovations of Vatican II disappointed him and he stuck to his Latin during Mass while everybody else replied in English.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JRR_Tolkien#Religion
Well that says quite a lot... Actually why would anyone consider him "pagan"?
He was a Lutheran.
...? :zombie00:
Well that says quite a lot... Actually why would anyone consider him "pagan"?
A good Catholic is - by default - a staunch 'Pagan'.
I am not a relativist. I do believe in a uniform morality. So perhaps you are not far from truth, depending on what sort of "paganism" you have in mind.
I am not a relativist. I do believe in a uniform morality. So perhaps you are not far from truth, depending on what sort of "paganism" you have in mind.
The archetectonics, ethonogenesis, cultural refinement and archtypes of Western European Catholicism are Heathenistic refinements, with a Universalist twist.
"Refinement". I like that word. Indeed I believe Christianity is a refined version of the early pagan religions. Refined thanks to God's revelation.
... Refined thanks to God's revelation.
Which one, now?
Which one, now?
In Christ.
In Christ.
Ah.
And so revelation is now in stasis?
Anthropos
01-19-2010, 07:12 PM
In Christ.
There's no yielding to the trolls. The latter, by the way, are not at odds with 'heathenry'.
There's no yielding to the trolls. The latter, by the way, are not at odds with 'heathenry'.
Is there anything that you, Anthropos, find in his books to be at odds with Heathenry?
Ah.
And so revelation is now in stasis?
Yes. Until the coming of Christ and the end of the world. There is however the Holy Spirit to guide us and elaborate on God's revelation in Christ.
Anthropos
01-19-2010, 08:22 PM
..................
There's no yielding to the trolls. The latter, by the way, are not at odds with 'heathenry'.
Don't understand me wrong. I draw a line between the barbaric pagan religions, and Christianity - the corner stone of our civilisation. Formed at the fertile crossroads of ancient civilisations, it was born out of truths amassed by them through centuries, if not millenia.
However, following the teachings of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, I believe that everyone is called by the Truth, and can be destined to salvation if he faithfully follows his own conscience/morality. Even if it is formed on some imprefect pagan religion. Abraham was justified through such faith. St Paul wrote about it in the letter to Romans. It was sheer faith, without any forms, liturgy or laws.
Why did Christianity became so popular? Certain people would like to atrribute its success entirely to some cold-blooded political calculations... because this theory happens to suit their own private beliefs. The truth is that every political tool gets discarded as soon as it becomes an obstacle or ceases to be useful. This was not the case with Christianity. Christianity was not a religion implemented from above. No such "religion" ever stood a chance of survival. Why then was it so successful? It is because it addressed the essential problems and fears of the civilised humanity.
Anthropos
01-19-2010, 09:04 PM
Don't understand me wrong. I draw a line between the barbaric pagan religions, and Christianity - the corner stone of our civilisation. Formed at the fertile crossroads of ancient civilisations, it was born out of truths amassed by them through centuries, if not millenia.
However, following the teachings of the Holy Roman Catholic Church, I believe that everyone is called by the Truth, and can be destined to salvation if he faithfully follows his own conscience/morality. Even if it is formed on some imprefect pagan religion. Abraham was justified through such faith. St Paul wrote about it in the letter to Romans. It was sheer faith, without any forms, liturgy or laws.
No way, haha, that's the most bizarre interpretation, especially coming from a Christian! Christ is the revelation to all of humanity of the Trinity. But the Trinity had already revealed himself to Abraham, as you should know (Genesis, chap. 18).
The God of the Orthodox Christian Church is the God of Abraham (http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Abraham&action=edit), Isaac (http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Isaac&action=edit) and Jacob (http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Jacob&action=edit), the I AM who revealed himself to Moses (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Moses) in the burning bush. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Trinity
How else could it be? You don't think that God is God by the prophets?
We believe (http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Faith&action=edit) in one God (http://orthodoxwiki.org/God), the Father (http://orthodoxwiki.org/God_the_Father) Almighty, Maker (http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Creation&action=edit) of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Jesus_Christ), the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made:
Who for us men and for our salvation (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Salvation) came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Spirit) and the Virgin Mary (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Theotokos), and was made man (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Incarnation);
And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And the third day He rose (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Resurrection) again, according to the Scriptures (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Scripture);
And ascended (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ascension) into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;
And He shall come again (http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Second_coming&action=edit) with glory to judge (http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Judgement&action=edit) the living and the dead (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Death), Whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Spirit), the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Worship) and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Prophet);
And we believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church (http://orthodoxwiki.org/One_Holy_Catholic_and_Apostolic_Church).
We acknowledge one Baptism (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Baptism) for the remission of sins (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sin).
We look for the Resurrection of the dead,
And the Life (http://orthodoxwiki.org/index.php?title=Eternal_Life&action=edit) of the world to come. Amen.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Nicene-Constantinopolitan_Creed
As for the rest of what you said, I, as a Christian, believe that God is a merciful God, and that if he weren't we would all go to hell regardless of confession and deeds, even if that in no way is to say that confession and deeds are worthless. We must not be lazy. Impurities will not see the face of God. Furthermore, I, as a Christian, know that I am not the judge.
But do you really think that modern so-called 'heathenry' (or heathenism, or neopaganism, depending on what you prefer) such as contemporary 'Germanic heathenry' :speechless-smiley-0 is an authentic, true, spiritual tradition? Yes or no?
Anthropos
01-19-2010, 09:09 PM
Why did Christianity became so popular? Certain people would like to atrribute its success entirely to some cold-blooded political calculations... because this theory happens to suit their own private beliefs. The truth is that every political tool gets discarded as soon as it becomes an obstacle or ceases to be useful. This was not the case with Christianity. Christianity was not a religion implemented from above. No such "religion" ever stood a chance of survival. Why then was it so successful? It is because it addressed the essential problems and fears of the civilised humanity.
It lasts because it is true. Vincit omnia Veritas!
Osweo
01-19-2010, 09:45 PM
No way, haha,
One reads about the famous Councils of Nicaea, Chalcedon and so on in the old history books, and hear of how reverend holy men expounded upon their immense wisdom and displayed their great humility...
... and then you read Anthropos's posts, and wonder if, in real life, maybe they were all just a bit more like him, really! :p Ahem:
Pelasgius: ... And so you see, my Brothers in Christ, how I came to this belief, and how its inherent spiritual truth speaks out. I conclude my address, and pass the floor to my worshipful and learned Brother. May the Holy Spirit guide his words, and inspire all here with the true Faith. Amen!
Augustine: NO WAY, Pelasgius! HAHAH!!! You're so STUPID!!!!
Anthropos
01-19-2010, 09:52 PM
One reads about the famous Councils of Nicaea, Chalcedon and so on in the old history books, and hear of how reverend holy men expounded upon their immense wisdom and displayed their great humility...
... and then you read Anthropos's posts, and wonder if, in real life, maybe they were all just a bit more like him, really! :p Ahem:
Pelasgius: ... And so you see, my Brothers in Christ, how I came to this belief, and how its inherent spiritual truth speaks out. I conclude my address, and pass the floor to my worshipful and learned Brother. May the Holy Spirit guide his words, and inspire all here with the true Faith. Amen!
Augustine: NO WAY, Pelasgius! HAHAH!!! You're so STUPID!!!!
There's nothing wrong with plain straightforwardness, do you know that? And humility is about knowing ones place and not about feigning some fake image of meakness. You, by the way, could not resist the argumentum ad hominem. :thumbs up
Osweo
01-19-2010, 10:01 PM
You, by the way, could not resist the argumentum ad hominem. :thumbs up
I'm not arguing with you though. I'm simply making a weakly humourous observation. Some people laughed, I know, and therefore it was worth it. :D:thumb001:
Wulfhere
01-19-2010, 11:02 PM
"Refinement". I like that word. Indeed I believe Christianity is a refined version of the early pagan religions. Refined thanks to God's revelation.
Debased, is the word I would use.
Murphy
01-20-2010, 04:44 AM
He wrote tales. So what? Why do you ask? Is there anything in his books that you find to be at odds with being a Roman Catholic?
Not at all. I see his works exactly how he intended them to be: fundamentally Catholic.
But a certain someone on the forum seems to think Tolkien wasn't that much of a Catholic. So I started this thread.
Regards,
The Papist.
No way, haha, that's the most bizarre interpretation, especially coming from a Christian! Christ is the revelation to all of humanity of the Trinity.
What do you mean "no way, haha". Im not certain how you interpret St Paul's letter to Romans. Why do you think God chose Abraham in the first place? Because of his faith.
Christ is the revelation to all of humanity of the Trinity. But the Trinity had already revealed himself to Abraham, as you should know (Genesis, chap. 18).
This is a very peculiar statement. What are you trying to say? Nothing was known about the Trinity and Chirst by that time. I am not even sure what you meant here.
Amapola
01-20-2010, 11:06 AM
If there is any doubt left, he once wrote in a personal letter that his biggest influence had been the Virgin Mary.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.