Are Dagestanis and Arabs long lost brothers?

[Ashraf]

It seems so
http://s14.directupload.net/images/140502/nc3t8c77.gif (http://www.directupload.net)


Dagestani women
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1439133/thumbs/o-MUSLIM-WOMEN-570.jpg?4


Arab woman
http://testdb.msmagazine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/saudiwoman_drive.jpg

[Ashraf]

Dagestanis have haplogroup J1 as high in frequency as people from the Arabian plate

[Chichic]

No, Dagestanis are not the brothers of Arabs, it's only the religion which connects them.

[d3cimat3d]

Ashraf is a troll, I knew it

[StonyArabia]

Dagestan did have an Arab presence but I don't know if they can be called genetic relatives, they do share however an affinity. Most the studies on the haplogroups are outdated. Btw Shrivani Arabic was spoken in Dagestan before the Russian conquest in fact it was the lingua franca. Dagestani do have high J1 levels but it's different from the Arabian one.

[Illancha]

No, just no.

[Ashraf]

No, Dagestanis and Arabs are no brothers, it's only the religion which connects them.


Nope, It's the y-dna which connecs them. You can't ignore science



most Dagestanis look like South Russians, a bit darker and more robust than Chechens.

Is this a joke or something? They don't look Russian at all. Russian genome is dominated by north european component while Dagestanis are predominantly west asian.

[Chichic]

Nope, It's the y-dna which connecs them. You can't ignore science



Is this a joke or something? They don't look Russian at all. Russian genome is dominated by north european component while Dagestanis are predominantly west asian.

I think you're joking here. Dagestanis are like South Russians, not like Arabs. They're Eurasians, not Middle Easterners.

[StonyArabia]

I think you're joking here. Dagestanis are like South Russians, not like Arabs. They're Eurasians, not Middle Easterners.

No they don't look like either. People also forget that Dagestan is multiethnic region with many different ethnic groups. For example there is Kumyk, Persian Tats, Azeris, Avars, and some other groups. Dagestanis don't look like Southern Russians, who are Slavs, and of course they don't look like Arabs. They look what they are native of the region, also the Nogai seem to be Mongoloid looking.

[interes]

Yes lokk arab

[LightHouse89]

I don't think they look like arabs. They may have more in common with Azeri people they live right next to each other but Southern Arabs are a long shot......the distance is too great between both populations. However they may have some links to them that go back very, very far. Irish people have some DNA from Asia....or western Russia really really far back on their migration patterns though [genetically speaking].

[LightHouse89]

I think you're joking here. Dagestanis are like South Russians, not like Arabs. They're Eurasians, not Middle Easterners.

Eurasiatic yes with cultural relations maybe with the middle east due to religious beliefs.

[Chichic]

I don't think they look like arabs. They may have more in common with Azeri people they live right next to each other but Southern Arabs are a long shot......the distance is too great between both populations. However they may have some links to them that go back very, very far. Irish people have some DNA from Asia....or western Russia really really far back on their migration patterns though [genetically speaking].

Mavlet Batirov does represent the average Dagestani pretty good:

http://rt.com/files/sport/russia-s-olympic-medals-a-look-back/18.jpg

[Black Wolf]

Dagestanis and Arabs both have very high percentages of Y-DNA haplogroup J1 amongst them but the relation is very distant as they are of different subclades. Dagestanis are some sort of J1 called just J1* and Arabs are mainly J1e-P58 or whatever it is called today.

[StonyArabia]

Dagestanis and Arabs both have very high percentages of Y-DNA haplogroup J1 amongst them but the relation is very distant as they are of different subclades. Dagestanis are some sort of J1 called just J1* and Arabs are mainly J1e-P58 or whatever it is called today.

J* does speak in Soctora and the proto-Arabid people of Southern Arabia. Autosomally Dagestani and Arabs are very distinct, and the region is multiethnic anyways Nogais, Persian Tat, Azeris, Avars, Nakh and various other people. Anyways there was even Arabs in the region Shirvani Arabic which was a lingua franca of the region, most of these Arabs got assimilated into the locals and many became Azerified as well.

[Ultra]

Well, Dagestanis do have a fair share of camel rider influence.

[Black Wolf]

J* does speak in Soctora and the proto-Arabid people of Southern Arabia. Autosomally Dagestani and Arabs are very distinct, and the region is multiethnic anyways Nogais, Persian Tat, Azeris, Avars, Nakh and various other people. Anyways there was even Arabs in the region Shirvani Arabic which was a lingua franca of the region, most of these Arabs got assimilated into the locals and many became Azerified as well.

I know that Y-DNA J* peaks in Socotra but I did not know much about J* among proto-Arabid people of Southern Arabia. The proto-Arabids have a large amount of Y-DNA J* among them?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

They look the same and have the same haplogroups, because they are the same.

[Ultra]

They look the same and have the same haplogroups, because they are the same.
Hmm, yes. YES.

[StonyArabia]

Well, Dagestanis do have a fair share of camel rider influence.

Nothing wrong with being a camel rider, why this even insult or racial slur I have no idea. Dagestani is multiethnic region you can't come to accurate conclusion unless you test the various ethnic people in the region. That said there was Arabs in Dagestan Shirvani Arabs, who got assimilated but most of them were Azerified.

The latest documentation of the existence of Shirvani Arabic is attributed to the Azeri historian Abbasgulu Bakikhanov who mentioned in his 1840 historical work Golestan-i Iram that "to this day a group of Shirvan Arabs speaks an altered version of Arabic." Arabic continued to be spoken in Dagestan until the 1920s mostly by upper-class feudals as a second or third language, as well as a language of literature, politics and written communication.

http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus2/Bakihanov/framevved.htm
http://feb-web.ru/feb/ivl/vl6/vl6-4322.htm

North Caucasian resentment of the Russians for robbing them of their national history is doubled for the Daghestanis by the forced loss of their Arabic patrimony. In the nineteenth century, it was considered that the best literary Arabic was spoken in the mountains of Daghestan. Daghestani Arabist scholars were famous, attracting students from the whole Muslim world. The lingua franca in Daghestan before the Revolution was Arabic. Then, in the 1920s and 1930s, the main thrust of the anti-religious campaign, was to eradicate Arabic, a religious language, and replace it with Russian. The finest flower of Arabist scholarship disappeared in Stalin's purges.

source:Bryan, Fanny. E.B. (1992). Bennigsen-Broxup, Marie, ed. The North Caucasus Barrier: The Russian Advance Towards the Muslim World. C. Hurst & Co.

There Arab influence is minimal as can be seen by their autosomal DNA but this depends on the ethnic group since most of these Arabs got Azerified, which might explain why some Azeris might have stronger Arabian affinity.

[Black Wolf]

They look the same and have the same haplogroups, because they are the same.

That's like saying Irish and Russians have the same haplogroups.

[Rudel]

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

[StonyArabia]

I know that Y-DNA J* peaks in Socotra but I did not know much about J* among proto-Arabid people of Southern Arabia. The proto-Arabids have a large amount of Y-DNA J* among them?

Yes it does the people who speak the South Semitic languages also said to be proto-Arabids seem like the Soctorans to have very high levels of this Y-lineage. It's kinda amazing.

[Black Wolf]

Yes it does the people who speak the South Semitic languages also said to be proto-Arabids seem like the Soctorans to have very high levels of this Y-lineage. It's kinda amazing.

I am curious about this. Where did you get that info from?

[Ultra]

Nothing wrong with being a camel rider, why this even insult or racial slur I have no idea. Dagestani is multiethnic region you can't come to accurate conclusion unless you test the various ethnic people in the region. That said there was Arabs in Dagestan Shirvani Arabs, who got assimilated but most of them were Azerified.

The latest documentation of the existence of Shirvani Arabic is attributed to the Azeri historian Abbasgulu Bakikhanov who mentioned in his 1840 historical work Golestan-i Iram that "to this day a group of Shirvan Arabs speaks an altered version of Arabic." Arabic continued to be spoken in Dagestan until the 1920s mostly by upper-class feudals as a second or third language, as well as a language of literature, politics and written communication.

http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus2/Bakihanov/framevved.htm
http://feb-web.ru/feb/ivl/vl6/vl6-4322.htm

North Caucasian resentment of the Russians for robbing them of their national history is doubled for the Daghestanis by the forced loss of their Arabic patrimony. In the nineteenth century, it was considered that the best literary Arabic was spoken in the mountains of Daghestan. Daghestani Arabist scholars were famous, attracting students from the whole Muslim world. The lingua franca in Daghestan before the Revolution was Arabic. Then, in the 1920s and 1930s, the main thrust of the anti-religious campaign, was to eradicate Arabic, a religious language, and replace it with Russian. The finest flower of Arabist scholarship disappeared in Stalin's purges.

source:Bryan, Fanny. E.B. (1992). Bennigsen-Broxup, Marie, ed. The North Caucasus Barrier: The Russian Advance Towards the Muslim World. C. Hurst & Co.

There Arab influence is minimal as can be seen by their autosomal DNA but this depends on the ethnic group since most of these Arabs got Azerified, which might explain why some Azeris might have stronger Arabian affinity.
Well it's only true that Arab genetics and Islam was spread by camel riders, don't see why you have to take it as an insult. Also there are many Dagestanis who look plain Arab. Anyway thanks for the history lesson.

[Black Wolf]

People here do not seem to understand that the J1 among Dagestanis is of a completely different subclade than the J1 found among Arabs. They are about as related as R1a and R1b are to each other for instance.

[StonyArabia]

I am curious about this. Where did you get that info from?

Honestly I saw it on amature blog where they said it did peak in the Southern Semitic speakers.


Well it's only true that Arab genetics and Islam was spread by camel riders, don't see why you have to take it as an insult. Also there are many Dagestanis who look plain Arab. Anyway thanks for the history lesson.

Well people use it to demean us but we don't care. Arab genetics and Islam was indeed spread by conquest and trade. Dagestan is multiethnic region, so I don't doubt some do, after all there was a large Arab presence in the region, who eventually got Azerified. Why are you making looking Arab like negative thing. Arabids look tough compared to Nordics who look feminine.

[Chichic]

Dagestanis are so much different than Arabs that it's ridiculous. Southern Europeans look much more like Arabs than Dagestanis. Dagestanis are typical Eurasians and don't have this kind of look which is common in the Middle East.

[Insuperable]

Dagestanis are so much different than Arabs that it's ridiculous. Southern Europeans look much more like Arabs than Dagestanis. Dagestanis are typical Eurasians and don't have this kind of look which is common in the Middle East.

Since this comes from a Dagestani living in Russia pretending to be German how can we take you seriously on this?

[Illancha]

Since this comes from a Dagestani living in Russia pretending to be German how can we take you seriously on this?
Well if my word counts for anything, what he says is true.

[Insuperable]

Well if my word counts for anything, what he says is true.

Dagestani obviously look much more different than Arabs, no need to tell me that if that is what you are getting to.

[Ameer]

It seems so
http://s14.directupload.net/images/140502/nc3t8c77.gif (http://www.directupload.net)


Dagestani women
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1439133/thumbs/o-MUSLIM-WOMEN-570.jpg?4


Arab woman
http://testdb.msmagazine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/saudiwoman_drive.jpg


Forensic Science International: Genetics Supplement Series Available online26 October 2013

Classification of the Y-haplogroup distributions of Western Eurasian populations using a self-learning algorithm

H. Pamjav et al.

The understanding of historical relationship between populations is a core aspect of human population history studies. We have compared the frequency of 18 different Y-SNP haplogroups in 90 Western Eurasian populations. Classification of haplogroup distribution vectors using a new self-learning classification algorithm so called “self-organizing cloud (SOC)” proved to be an effective tool to identify population groups, which share common paternal genetic features. By means of the algorithm, we have determined 10 different classes of populations based on the similarity of haplogroup composition. The analysis showed that paternal genetic markers tend to reflect geographical proximity of populations better than linguistic relationship, although certain Y-SNP haplogroups have relatively good correlation with specific language families. These observations are based on the comparative analysis of the Hg distributions of contemporary populations may reflect demographic history of them in the past.


From the paper

:
The database contains distributions representing 90 populations (N = 16,751 males) by the frequencies of the published and unpublished Y-chromosome Hgs. These Hgs were combined into 18 different Hgs (C, E, ABDF*, G, H, I1, I2, J1, J2, K*, L, N, O, Q, R1a, R1b, R2, T), so that published sources could be used for comparisons.
...
As shown in Fig. 1, Middle Eastern (Class 7) and Central European Classes (Class 8) form one non-separable cluster in the central part of the figure. All of the others of the 10 classes can be identified in different well separable areas around this central region. The Central Asian (Class 4) and Northwest Caucasian (Class 9) Classes are in neighbouring areas in the upper and upper-left parts, while the Arab-Dagestanian Class (Class 1) occupies the opposite, lower-left part of the map. The North-Central and Western European (Class 3 + Class 6) as well as the Atlantic (Class 10) Classes form a common branch in the lower-left part of the figure. The opposite, upper-right branch contains the East Baltic (Class 5) and North Eurasian (Class 2) Classes

"

In terms of the clade which links the tribal arabs and Daghestanians it should be withen the J1 haplogroup

"[color=#FF0000]
Unfortunately, we lacked detailed data to distinguish between J1 subgroups, but it is still valid that Dagestanians and (tribal) Arabs are closer to each other than to other populations (on the male line).

Tibor Feher
(co-author)"

[Wild North]

However..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_in_the_Caucasus

[gültekin]

a swarty S.Euro carries R1a, and he don't looks like an Russian. Turkmenistan hardcore Y-DNA is R1b and they don't look like Atlantids. (just saying, no offence)

[Highlands]

Why do people compare atypical individuals of their country?:rolleyes:

[Black Wolf]

However..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs_in_the_Caucasus

The Arabs and Dagestanis did not mix to any great degree really. The Dagestanis that belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J1 belong to a different subclade than the Arabs who belong to J1. The last common paternal line ancestor that they share lived I would say at least 10,000 years ago.

[Wild North]

The Arabs and Dagestanis did not mix to any great degree really. The Dagestanis that belong to Y-DNA haplogroup J1 belong to a different subclade than the Arabs who belong to J1. The last common paternal line ancestor that they share lived I would say at least 10,000 years ago.

Ok. I don´t know much about subclades. But the presence of J1 in this area, made me believe in a sort of Arab influence.

[Black Wolf]

Ok. I don´t know much about subclades. But the presence of J1 in this area, made me believe in a sort of Arab influence.

Nah it is way older than Arab influence.