Anthropology of the Estonians

[EWtt]

In the 1920's and 30's, Estonian anthropologist, zoologist and eugenicist Juhan Aul measured 15 000 men (20 to 30 years old, mostly army recruits), 700 women and 2000 schoolchildren.

He concluded that Estonians are racially mixed - migrations, immigration, trade and wars brought different elements to the population.

There are two main races: the Nordic and the Baltic race. The first is tall and long-headed; the latter shorter and has a shorter head. Both have blond hair (including light brown) and blue eyes, which do vary a bit every now and then. Both are depigmented.

The Nordic and Baltic types have been present side by side since the stone age. The old Finnic element seems to be expressed by the Baltic race.

http://www.veloplus.ee/gfx/eesti_maakonnad.gif

The Nordic type was dominant in Northern Pärnumaa, Läänemaa, Western Harjumaa, Muhumaa and partly in Saaremaa.

The Baltic type was dominant in Võrumaa, Petserimaa (a county located east of Võrumaa, currently occupied by Russia), partly in Tartumaa, Harjumaa, Virumaa, Hiiu island and Southern Pärnumaa.

A mixed Nordic+Baltic type (the most frequent among Estonians) was found in Saaremaa, Viljandimaa, Valgamaa, Järvamaa, partly in Virumaa and Tartumaa.

The Western Estonians had a cranial index below 76% while the Eastern: 76-81%. Average head height-length index was 80,7.

He noticed that numerous local types have developed in Estonia. The Baltic type in Viljandi county is different from that in Harju county, while the type in Petseri county is also different of the former two. The purest Baltic type seemed to be found among the Setu people. Livonians had a local type with strong Nordic influence and great height. It was evident that different races can develop in geographically small areas.

71,8% of Estonians had blond hair. 64% had blue-grey eyes, 24% had blue eyes. Aul noted the presence of a short dark-haired and dark-eyed type (10%-13%).

The foreign dark type was mostly found in Saaremaa, Southern Pärnumaa, Southern Viljandimaa and Central Tartumaa. These are also the areas that have been ravaged the most in various wars. He thought the dark elements have a Southern/Central and/or an Eastern European origin. Partly it could have been due to Latvian influence (as they had more of this dark type, as did the Finns who might have gotten dark features from the Saami). The dark type was mostly composed of the Alpine race while he also mentioned the Dinaric type and the Mediterranean type. The dark types had gotten strong influence from the surrounding population, though.

In 1814, Karl Ernst von Baer also mentioned the dark type: "The (Estonians') hair is most frequently blond, often white in childhood; there is also black hair along with a dark complexion. The very few Estonians that have dark hair are short, but have a stronger build. They are more serious, stubborn and reserved than the majority who are phlegmatic."

According to Aul, average height in Estonia was 172 cm. The tallest Estonians lived in Western Estonia, the shortest in South-Eastern Estonia. Some figures: Läänemaa 173,4 cm, Viljandimaa 171,3 cm, Harjumaa 172,3 cm, Tallinn 172, 6 cm, Järvamaa 172, 1 cm, Tartu 171,7 cm, Võrumaa 171cm, Petserimaa 170,1 cm. In Kirbla, Martna and Lihula area the average height was even over 175 cm.

In comparison, average Finns were 170,9 cm tall, Russians 167,2 cm, Latvians 171,3 cm, Livonians 174,2 cm, Lithuanians 166,2 cm, Prussians 168, 2 cm, Poles 167,7 cm, Norwegians 172,5 cm. The average European height was around 162 cm. By height, Estonians were equal to the Swedes.

Estonian females averaged 162 cm.

The most slender neighbors were Finland-Swedes and Livonians, while the most stocky were Latvians and Russians. Estonians were in-between. Men were more slender than women.

Looking at the data from Tallinn in the viewpoint of social layering, common workers were stockier than the intellectuals. The most stocky national groups were in Petserimaa and Ida-Virumaa while the most slender people were in Läänemaa, Northern Pärnumaa and Muhu island.

Estonians were among the heaviest people in Northern Europe, only the Finns were heavier. "Thus it is not surprising we are primarily known as a country of strongmen." This physical virtue was most prevalent in Saaremaa.

It is also interesting to note that in Tallinn and other cities, the average height was greater than in the countryside. Also, the educated social classes were taller. Even the educated worker was taller than an uneducated worker. There seemed to be a tendency that height increases with cultural development.

Aul considered the mongoloid question to have no scientific basis and said it has never been taken seriously in anthropology. He categorically denied the presence of mongoloid traits (like thick black hair, epicanthic folds, shortage of facial hair, etc.), and claimed that even if there were such traits to be found, it would have to be an individual case, due to some later influence; there were no such indigenous elements.

[Jarl]

Magnificent! Thanks. Where is Muhumaa? Its not on the map...


He noticed that numerous local types have developed in Estonia. The Baltic type in Viljandi county is different than that in Harju county, while the type in Petseri county is also different of the former two. The purest Baltic type seemed to be found among the Setu people. Livonians had a local type with strong Nordic influence and great height. It was evident that different races can develop in geographically small areas.

Makes sense. Through isolation and drift.



Aul considered the mongoloid question to have no scientific basis and said it has never been taken seriously in anthropology. He categorically denied the presence of mongoloid traits (like thick black hair, epicanthic folds, shortage of facial hair, etc.), and claimed that even if there were such traits to be found, it would have to be an individual case, due to some later influence; there were no such indigenous elements.

That these traits exist in a solution (apart perhaps from typical Mongoloid hair) is almost certain. I wonder if the claim they are not "indigenoud" to Europe can be sustained.

[EWtt]

Magnificent! Thanks. Where is Muhumaa? Its not on the map...

Muhu is the island between Saaremaa and Läänemaa.

[esaima]

According to Uralic and Altaic Series (volume 112, 1960-1990):
As to structure of the skull, the Estonians belong to the so-called mesocephalic people, with a certain tendency to the brachycephalic, whereby the correlation between the lenght and the width of the head or the so-called cephalic index is on the average 80.0. The people with long heads(dolichocephalic) form 6.9 percent of the Estonians, those with middle long heads 45.4 and those with short heads 47.7 percent.
The predominant color of the eyes (iris) of the Estonians is greyish blue (51.1 percent), the second most prevalent color is blue(24.6 percent); and the least prevalent is brown (13.5 percent). The light tones dominate also in the color of the hair.The observations of J.Villems show 55.8 percent blondes, 43.6 brunettes in different shadings, and 0.6 percent auburn.

[National_Nord]

Anthropological types in Estonia

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6884/estonians1.jpg (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/estonians1.jpg/)

[W. R.]

I know next to nothing about ethnogenesis of Estonians but I'm watching a documentary about crusaders right now and an historian Alaksandr Baškoŭ says there literally this:

In fact you would not find today an Estonian who would descend from those Ests, because they all are in fact descendants of the crusaders. Thus they have a special anthropological type. When we come to Estonia we see blonde people, we see people with blue eyes and according to the anthropological parameters they have nothing left from the Ests.

That would be sad. :icon_sad: I wish I heard from someone that it's stupid to take this statement seriously. Anyone?

[esaima]

An illustration would be not bad.;)

[W. R.]

What do you mean by illustration?

[esaima]

What do you mean by illustration?

The picture I have posted.

[W. R.]

Oh, I got it. Sorry, my browser skipped it first.

[Äike]

I know next to nothing about ethnogenesis of Estonians but I'm watching a documentary about crusaders right now and an historian Alaksandr Baškoŭ says there literally this:

In fact you would not find today an Estonian who would descend from those Ests, because they all are in fact descendants of the crusaders. Thus they have a special anthropological type. When we come to Estonia we see blonde people, we see people with blue eyes and according to the anthropological parameters they have nothing left from the Ests.

That would be sad. :icon_sad: I wish I heard from someone that it's stupid to take this statement seriously. Anyone?

Such a statement is false. The crusaders were usually the ruling class and didn't mess with the peasant population. But there has been some mixing which is proved by genetics and anthropology. The crusaders aren't responsible for this, it's because of the immigrants that came to Estonia after the Great Northern War. They assimilated into the Estonian population quite fast.

If blonde hair and blue eyes would be a trait brought here by the crusaders(Germans, Swedes, Danes), then Swedes, Germans and Danes should be way blonder then Estonians, but they aren't. Finns are the blondest people in the world, Estonia and Sweden being 2nd.

Saying that mostly Central-European(German) crusaders brought blond hair and blue eyes to a Northern European country is absolute idiocy. As Finnics(Finns and Estonians) are blonder then any other group in Europe.

[EWtt]

I know next to nothing about ethnogenesis of Estonians but I'm watching a documentary about crusaders right now and an historian Alaksandr Baškoŭ says there literally this:

In fact you would not find today an Estonian who would descend from those Ests, because they all are in fact descendants of the crusaders.

Indeed that's not true, although surely some mixing took place. Also, when an Estonian became wealthy, he became a German. Even some of the Baltic-German noble families actually had Estonian roots. When a German peasant moved here, his descendants would become assimilated into the Estonians. It is silly to claim that all of the Germans (or other foreigners) here were descended from the crusaders...

As Karl said, there were famines, plagues and wars that left huge amounts of farmlands open, so foreign peasants moved here (especially Finns, Latvians, Russians, Swedes, but also Poles, Germans, Dutchmen, even Scotsmen, etc). They became assimilated in a matter of a couple of generations.


Thus they have a special anthropological type. When we come to Estonia we see blonde people, we see people with blue eyes and according to the anthropological parameters they have nothing left from the Ests.

As Juhan Aul said, despite racial dualism (Nordic, Baltic) since the stone age, both main types have fair traits. It is much more likely that the dark traits are the ones that have a later foreign origin.

By the way, here are two Soviet-era sketches of the Estonians' anthropological types:

The Western type:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/meon8/063_estwestbalt.jpg

The Eastern type:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/meon8/062_esteastbalt.jpg

[esaima]

Such a statement is false.
If blonde hair and blue eyes would be a trait brought here by the crusaders(Germans, Swedes, Danes), then Swedes, Germans and Danes should be way blonder then Estonians, but they aren't. Finns are the blondest people in the world, Estonia and Sweden being 2nd.

Saying that mostly Central-European(German) crusaders brought blond hair and blue eyes to a Northern European country is absolute idiocy. As Finnics(Finns and Estonians) are blonder then any other group in Europe.
I dont´ know, personally i doubt that Estonians are blonder than Scandinavians, at least Swedes and Norwegians.I have lived a bit in both countries, can not say so. Juhan Aul, btw, also states so. Also, I don´t believe that all Finns are so whithe-haired.But in fact, this is not such a big deal.

Yes, it sounds really unrealistic to believe that Estonians were "blondified" in 13th century by German crusaders.But is this wide-spread opinion that blonde hair was brought here by the Balts who arrived here a bit after Finnics, about 2200 BC, wrong?

[esaima]

I know next to nothing about ethnogenesis of Estonians but I'm watching a documentary about crusaders right now and an historian Alaksandr Baškoŭ says there literally this:

In fact you would not find today an Estonian who would descend from those Ests, because they all are in fact descendants of the crusaders. Thus they have a special anthropological type. When we come to Estonia we see blonde people, we see people with blue eyes and according to the anthropological parameters they have nothing left from the Ests.



Ests?Aesti..?Maybe I am wrong but it resembles me a Baltic tribe and has no direct connections with Estonians.

[EWtt]

Yes, it sounds really unrealistic to believe that Estonians were "blondified" in 13th century by German crusaders.But is this wide-spread opinion that blonde hair was brought here by the Balts who arrived here a bit after Finnics, about 2200 BC, wrong?

I'd doubt blondism reached the area that late, with the arrival of Proto-Indo-Europeans (Proto-Balts, Proto-Germanics). The mutation causing blue eyes is thought to have developed in the Black Sea area around 10 000 years ago, and the mutation causing Europeans' blond hair has been estimated being around 11 000 years old. There should be no reason to claim these traits are not indigenous in this region.

However, that date does coincide with the arrival of the Nordic type into Estonia along with the Corded Ware/Battle-Axe culture.

[W. R.]

Ests?Aesti..?Maybe I am wrong but it resembles me a Baltic tribe and has no direct connections with Estonians.It was difficult to translate the word that the historian used. Actually he spoke auf Weissruthenisch, but he used the word "эсты (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Эсты)". The article in the Russian wikipedia begins with "Ests is an ancient name of the medieval population of modern Estonia. The tribe belonged to the family of Finno-Ugrian peoples".

[Lenny]

By the way, here are two Soviet-era sketches of the Estonians' anthropological types:

The Western type:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/meon8/063_estwestbalt.jpg

The Eastern type:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/meon8/062_esteastbalt.jpg
Interesting.


Here is a Soviet police poster that was used to help identify typical faces of the diverse Peoples of the Soviet-Empire:

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2853/militsiyapamyatkasssr.jpg

The "Estonian face" is in the bottom row, second from the left. (On the extreme left of the bottom row is a Latvian; above the Estonian is a Lithuanian).

One humorous thing about this poster is that the "Tatar" face looks exactly like Lenin. :D

[Pure ja]

I'd doubt blondism reached the area that late, with the arrival of Proto-Indo-Europeans (Proto-Balts, Proto-Germanics). The mutation causing blue eyes is thought to have developed in the Black Sea area around 10 000 years ago, and the mutation causing Europeans' blond hair has been estimated being around 11 000 years old. There should be no reason to claim these traits are not indigenous in this region.

However, that date does coincide with the arrival of the Nordic type into Estonia along with the Corded Ware/Battle-Axe culture.

The nucleus of blondism is on both sides of the Bay of Bothnia, more widely around the Baltic Sea, especially near the coastline.

The most reasonable amplification mechanism for blondism would be the time period of holocene maximum about 8000 years ago, when both global and regional climates were warmer than during the 20th century. Especially autumns were long and dark and especially so near the coasts since the water masses of the Baltic Sea kept formation of snow away. So, the most vulnerable at that time were the children and women living near the coastline, they did not get enough sunshine and sunshine was not amplified by snow nor by water surfaces. Their men and fathers went out at sea hunting seals and fish and small whales, where weather is usually more clear, thus more sunshine and more reflection. Those living more inland got reflection from the earlier snow. And that is why local men started to prefer blonde women as their future wives. That is also why young boys are more blond than grownups.

[Pure ja]

Ests?Aesti..?Maybe I am wrong but it resembles me a Baltic tribe and has no direct connections with Estonians.

The Curonian Spit separating the Curonian Lagoon is called Kura Säär.
The Vistula Lagoon was called Esten + mere. We all know what it means in finnish: barrier / weir + sea.
It is a long tradition in Estonia to keep the +mere +meri hydronym ending for former parts of the Baltic Sea that have become bays or lagoons or lakes or swamps due to postglacial isostatic uplift. The oldest such sea remnant toponym in Estonia dates back to before the Billingen Event, some 12 000 years ago (that was the time that place was the last time a seashore).

Also the toponym of Jutland / Jylland has a similar origin:
to jut (out) = eest+uma / eend+uma / eeld+uma
Estonia / Estland / Aestii = Esteva / Eestuva = a jutting land or a barrier. A barrier to what? To the Baltic Ice Lake.

[lI]

The Curonian Spit separating the Curonian Lagoon is called Kura Säär.Only in modern Estonian. Historically there is nothing to suggest that Finnic people ever lived there. Curonians (Kuršiai, Kurši) after whoom that spit a and lagoon are named were Baltic people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curonians



The Vistula Lagoon was called Esten + mere. We all know what it means in finnish: barrier / weir + sea.
It is a long tradition in Estonia to keep the +mere +meri hydronym ending for former parts of the Baltic Sea that have become bays or lagoons or lakes or swamps due to postglacial isostatic uplift. Meri is a loanword from Balts:
Lexicon of Early Indo-European Loanwords Preserved in Finnish (http://kotisivu.lumonetti.fi/js749/lexicon.htm)
Fi. meri '(salt) sea' < Middle Proto-Finnic *meri < ?Baltic *mari- < PIE *mori-

Lith. mãrė, mãrios 'the sea', 'the Curonian sea'
Lat. mare 'the sea'
You cannot possibly be suggesting that Aesti were originally Finnic people, can you? It would be a bizarre assertion since Tacitus specifically said that their language resembles that of Brits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti#Tacitus) - if they had been Finno-Ugric speaking, he would have said that their language resembles that of Fenni (Finns) who were also mentioned in his Germania as a different tribe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni).



The oldest such sea remnant toponym in Estonia dates back to before the Billingen Event, some 12 000 years ago (that was the time that place was the last time a seashore).You cannot assert that this toponym is that old just based on when that body of water was part of the actual sea. Even though etymologically marios/meri originally meant "sea", in regions which don't border sea, the meaning is sometimes shifted to any large body of water, for example: Kauno marios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaunas_Reservoir) or Elektrėnų marios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektr%C4%97nai_Reservoir).

[Pure ja]

Only in modern Estonian. Historically there is nothing to suggest that Finnic people ever lived there. Curonians (Kuršiai, Kurši) after whoom that spit a and lagoon are named were Baltic people.


They were originally finnic, later turned bilingual, later on turned baltic. Just as fennoswedes today.
Or Ahvenanmaan swedes.



Meri is a loanword from Balts:
Lexicon of Early Indo-European Loanwords Preserved in Finnish (http://kotisivu.lumonetti.fi/js749/lexicon.htm)
You cannot possibly be suggesting that Aesti were originally Finnic people, can you?


I can. And I will. Bilingual finns. Just like fennoswedes.




It would be a bizarre assertion since Tacitus specifically said that their language resembles that of Brits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti#Tacitus) - if they had been Finno-Ugric speaking, he would have said that their language resembles that of Fenni (Finns) who were also mentioned in his Germania as a different tribe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni).


I can. And I will.

You don't know what was spoken among brits back then, and what kind of brits specifically. Estonian sounds much like dutch, finnish does not sound like dutch so much. More southerly baltic-finnic dialects would have had some third accent. And I seriously doubt that any unified proto-baltic-finnic existed back then. And Tacitus probably never met any fenni, so he had no comparison.




You cannot assert that this toponym is that old just based on when that body of water was part of the actual sea. Even though etymologically marios/meri originally meant "sea", in regions which don't border sea, the meaning is sometimes shifted to any large body of water, for example: Kauno marios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaunas_Reservoir) or Elektrėnų marios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektr%C4%97nai_Reservoir).

Not in Estonia. And an artificial weir lake name is a cheapshot.

[lI]

They were originally finnic, later turned bilingual, later on turned baltic. Just as fennoswedes today.
Or Ahvenanmaan swedes.You have zero evidence to support your assertion that they were originally Finnic. Nothing. Zitch. Nada

You are starting off with a preconceived notion that they must have been Finnic that you've drawn out of thin air and make clumsy attempts to build on that. That's not a reasonable approach.


I can. And I will. Bilingual finns. Just like fennoswedes.There is a recorded historical evidence that they spoke Indo-European language. There is no historical evidence that they would have known any Finnic language. As far as their "supposed Finnic-ness" is concerned, the burden of proof lies on you to prove it, not on me to disprove your baseless claims.





I can. And I will.You can't. And you failed to do so in the following paragraph.


You don't know what was spoken among brits back then, and what kind of brits specifically. Marvelous. So, now you say that Brits might have been Finnic too :picard1:



Estonian sounds much like dutch, finnish does not sound like dutch so much. More southerly baltic-finnic dialects would have had some third accent. And Tacitus probably never met any fenni, so he had no comparison.Estonian sounds like Dutch? :picard1:
Both Estonian and Finnish sound similar. As a Balt I am not able to differentiate between the two when I hear them. Even if Tacitus hadn't traveled there himself, there was amber trade with Aesti going on, so he surely must have met people who communicated with them. It is only nowadays, after 600 years of German slavery that half of Estonian vocabulary in of non-Finnic origin, back in those days the proportion of loanwords would have been only a fraction of it. But even nowadays.. mistaking a Finnic language for a Germanic one - oh god, you cannot possibly imagine how ludicrous your suggestion sounds like to someone who is actually familiar with those languages.



INot in Estonia. And an artificial weir lake name is a cheapshot.In Estonia too, you said it yourself that it's used for the inland bodies of water as well. You know what actually is a cheapshot? Your attempt to make it sound that only bodies of water which were formerly part of a sea are named meri because if we go back in time far enough, pretty much the whole Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania were covered by sea. That was loooooong before Finnic or Indo-European people showed up though (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/32788-Which-Region-of-Europe-Received-Agriculture-Last?p=879377&viewfull=1#post879377), so claiming continuity from those times is baseless.

[Pure ja]

You have zero evidence to support your assertion that they were originally Finnic. Nothing. Zitch. Nada


You still haven't provided any reasonable explanation for the 'Caloi' in Caloi + pede.

My position stems from the fact that balticization of curonians and livonians is a historical fact.




Marvelous. So, now you say that Brits might have been Finnic too :picard1:


No, I don't.
That is what you read out of it.
I was merely suggesting that it might have sounded similar, when compared to other neighbouring languages.




Estonian sounds like Dutch? :picard1:


Yes, especially the coastal regions.
Veeren veeren.



Even if Tacitus hadn't traveled there himself, there was amber trade with Aesti going on, so he surely must have met people who communicated with them.


So? Foreign languages have never been a problem for estonians.




It is only nowadays, after 600 years of German slavery that half of Estonian vocabulary in of non-Finnic origin, back in those days the proportion of loanwords would have been only a fraction of it. But even nowadays.. mistaking a Finnic language for a Germanic one - oh god, you cannot possibly imagine how ludicrous your suggestion sounds like to someone who is actually familiar with those languages.

1. You are jumping to the conclusion that a language in Briton would have to be a germanic language. It could well have been celtic or pictic or whatever.
2. Finno-ugric languages contain IE loanwords from the earliest stages of IE development.
3. Quite recently you supported the claim that 'mere' was a supposedly baltic loan, which in turn was supposedly a germanic loan, which in turn was probably supposedly a atlantic/mediterranean loan. Whatever it was, be it a loan or nostratic or something else, there is still the issue of 'mere' and 'rand' (and while you are at it, why not 'saar' and 'säär' and 'sõõr' as well) toponyms in Estonia many dating back more than 2000 years (based on postglacial isostatic rebound), some much more.



In Estonia too, you said it yourself that it's used for the inland bodies of water as well. You know what actually is a cheapshot? Your attempt to make it sound that only bodies of water which were formerly part of a sea are named meri because if we go back in time far enough, pretty much the whole Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania were covered by sea.


You can try the isostatic rebound angle in Lithuania as well. In fact you should, since the Curonian Lagoon has been a lake and a lagoon intermittently.

As to your blame of a cheapshot, why don't you leave out the historically known artificial names and see in what countries or regions there is a similar phenomenon. You may get lucky in Sweden. Maybe. But if Sweden lacks such a trend, then I'd say that the germanic origin of 'mere' and 'rand' and 'saar' is not likely.



That was loooooong before Finnic or Indo-European people showed up though (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/32788-Which-Region-of-Europe-Received-Agriculture-Last?p=879377&viewfull=1#post879377), so claiming continuity from those times is baseless.

I am aware of that particular school of thought - the so-called tree-based linguistic analysis.
I think that the tree-based analysis does not suit to adequately model population dynamics and linguistic dynamics. That is why I also do not think that there ever was a one united proto-baltic-finnic. Their old approach is certainly useful to pick up bits and pieces, but one should use a network model to put the pieces together. I suspect that their approach is leaving out a lot of finnic evolution on the western side.

As to agriculture, it is proven by pollen analysis that Estonian inhabitants started to experiment with it about 7000 years ago - about the same time when it started in the southern Baltics. Even more so, the first experiments date to the same time also in Finland.
Read and weep:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/gea.21428/full

[Aunt Hilda]

:fcinema:

[Pure ja]

there were early 20th c. theories about supposed balticization to of Curonians. Howeevr, they were proposed by Finnics themselves and are now declined.

I am still waiting for any sensible explanation for Caloi in Caloi+pede (Klaipeda).

[Peikko]

You guys are total newbies and don't know shit.


You cannot possibly be suggesting that Aesti were originally Finnic people, can you? It would be a bizarre assertion since Tacitus specifically said that their language resembles that of Brits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti#Tacitus) - if they had been Finno-Ugric speaking, he would have said that their language resembles that of Fenni (Finns) who were also mentioned in his Germania as a different tribe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenni).

Yes, there's no way knowing if Aesti were Finnic. But it's also very likely, that Fenni as described by Tacitus, were in fact Saami-people. Tacitus is not a good source for anything.


They were originally finnic, later turned bilingual, later on turned baltic. Just as fennoswedes today.
Or Ahvenanmaan swedes.

Ahvenanmaa Swedes and Finland Swedes are not just Finns who speak Swedish, especially Ahvenanmaa Swedes.



You don't know what was spoken among brits back then, and what kind of brits specifically. Estonian sounds much like dutch, finnish does not sound like dutch so much. More southerly baltic-finnic dialects would have had some third accent. And I seriously doubt that any unified proto-baltic-finnic existed back then. And Tacitus probably never met any fenni, so he had no comparison.
Estonian doesn't sound like Dutch :picard1:

[Pure ja]

Ahvenanmaa Swedes and Finland Swedes are not just Finns who speak Swedish, especially Ahvenanmaa Swedes.


That is like saying that Finns are not just Finns. Or that balts are not just balts.
Or for that matter, that Swedes are not just Swedes (especially those in Uppland ;) ).



Estonian doesn't sound like Dutch :picard1:

And you decide that based on what other third language?
I was talking about comparative similarity.

[Peikko]

That is like saying that Finns are not just Finns. Or that balts are not just balts.
Or for that matter, that Swedes are not just Swedes (especially those in Uppland ;) ).

No it's not, I don't understand your logic. Finland-Swedes are very much partly Swedish, not just linguistically. And people from Ahvenanmaa even more so.



And you decide that based on what other third language?
I was talking about comparative similarity.
On comparative similarity bases, Estonian sounds more similar to Latvian, than to Dutch.

[Aunt Hilda]

On comparative similarity bases, Estonian sounds more similar to Latvian, than to Dutch.
and Latvian sounds like Russian, soo.... (according to karl anyway)

[Pure ja]

On comparative similarity bases, Estonian sounds more similar to Latvian, than to Dutch.

The issue here was what Tacitus thought or had heard of.
I didn't bring up the language similarities in this thread.

Do you think that Latvian is more similar to Dutch than Estonian is to Dutch?

[Pure ja]

There are enough IE etymologies to choose from. Caloi doesn't even sound like Klai, how it can be reliable when compared to Baltic words that sound closer to Klaipeda?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaip%C4%97da#History

Lithuanian names and surnames were distorted in comparison to our modern standart written Lithuanian. I say Lithuanian since I don't know if Liatvians adopted/kept Germanized i.e. skewed forms of placenames.


Vytautas spoke Lithuanian himself and as we now Klaipėda has never been called Caloypeda, Caloypeda, etc., so it must be a scriber's mistake. Grand Dukes/Dukes didn't write themselves, they had scribers for that. And latter (in less than a decade) we have Klawpeda, Cleupeda. Obviously tries to write Klaipėda according to the rules of the written languages of that time.

That is all very convenient, isn't it?
To dismiss inconvenient toponyms as mistakes.

Why do you think that germans would change 'Klai' to 'Caloi'?
Indo-europeans usually make the mistake of omitting vowels, not creating them.

[arcticwolf]

The issue here was what Tacitus thought or had heard of.
I didn't bring up the language similarities in this thread.

Do you think that Latvian is more similar to Dutch than Estonian is to Dutch?

That's probably the case, since both are indo european. The only way that Estonian would be closer (vocabulary wise) is if both Dutch and Estonian adopted a shitload of latin words and Latvian did not.

[riverman]

That's behnd retarted. You're hopeless.

^hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

you never fail to make me laugh with your dumb comments. thanks

[Pure ja]

That's behnd retarted. You're hopeless.

Do you have any similar examples to the "mistake"/ change of Klai -> Caloi ?

[Pure ja]

I've told you already. Mistakes in written forms was something common. Other mentions in within a closest decade clearly say Klai, Caloi is not mentioned again. + It was never known Kaloipėda. If that's not enough for you, then you are retarted.

Perhaps you (or baltic researchers) should instead start to add -a- in between -Kl- and see what happens with other toponyms. Just out of curiosity. That is, if you are scientifically curious.

When in doubt, check for possible alternative scenarios.

[Peikko]

The issue here was what Tacitus thought or had heard of.
I didn't bring up the language similarities in this thread.

Do you think that Latvian is more similar to Dutch than Estonian is to Dutch?
Yes, definately.

[Pure ja]

LOL. That doesn't sound very scientific tbh.

Says one who marks inconvenient facts as mistakes - just like that.

Tell me, what would be the odds of such a mistake producing a finno-ugric toponym containing 'kala'?

[Peikko]

Here's a chapter from the Races of Europe, written by Coon.



The Baltic Finns: Livs and Esths

For the sake of continuity, let us return to the beginning of section eight, in which we expressed the intention of studying the racial composition of the Baltic Finns. We have seen, in the meanwhile, that the basic Finnic racial type, to which belong the Volga Finns and their relatives from Carelia to the Obi River, is a modern counterpart of the prehistoric Danubian race, with leanings in both a Nordic and a Ladogan direction. This type has been, therefore, named Neo-Danubian. It was this Neo-Danubian racial type that the ancestors of the Baltic Finns must have brought with them from the Volga country in their westward migrations during the centuries immediately preceding and after the time of Christ. The deviations of the modern Baltic Finns from this type will reflect the influence of the earlier inhabitants of the Baltic shorelands upon the invaders, and to a lesser extent, the influence of later peoples who have been amalgamated into the Finnic ethnic body.

The earliest Baltic lands occupied by the invaders were Esthonia and much of modern Latvia, including especially Kurland and Livonia. These codutries had, however, supported a population of some density for centuries before the Finnish arrival. The old Kammkeramik people of the tardy northern Neolithic are represented by the skulls from Salis Roje; large crania of at least two varieties, an incipient mongoloid, and a wide-faced mesocephal of Palaeolithic appearance. Food-producing people of a later date, who settled in numbers along the southern shore of the Gulf of Finland, are represented by numerous skeletal remains, which show them to have been a composite population characterized by extremely tall stature, robust bones and large bodies, large heads, with dimensions suggesting a blend of Corded and Upper Palaeolithic elements, comparable to that in western Norway. The early inhabitants of Esthonia were especially high headed, and long and broad faced. It is the combination of the Kammkeramik forest types with this extravagantly proportioned human form, and with the immigrant Finns from the Volga country, that has produced the modern Baltic Finnish racial entity.

The most southerly of the surviving Baltic Finns are the Livs, who inhabit twelve villages situated along a strip of coast which extends on either side of the promontory of Domesnes, at the southern entrance of the Gulf of Riga, in the province of Kurland, Latvia.88 The Livs are the last of the Finns in what is now Latvia to retain their native speech, for on the eastern side of the Gulf of Riga, the Livonian language died out in 1862. In 1852 there were 2354 Livs; in 1881, 2374; by 1920, however, the number had been reduced to 831, and it is probable that the Livs are destined to lose their language as well as their ethnic identity.

In view of this impending absorption, it is fortunate that the Livs have been subjected to careful anthropometric study.89 Two series of 100 adult males each, measured in 1878 and 1922, both yield a mean stature of 174 cm.; hence the Livs are very tall, and have derived none of their height through the modern increase mechanism which has elevated other peoples in northwestern Europe. They are large boned, long limbed, and at the same time heavy and powerfully built; their shoulders are broad, but their relative sitting height of 51.3 shows an excess of leg rather than body length. Their heads and faces are both large, comparable in size to those of western Norwegians. Length and breadth diameters of the head, with means of 193.3 mm. and 155.1 mm., produce a cephalic index with a mean of 80.2, which, although the range runs from 70 to 90, is not especially variable. It will be observed that the head form of the eastern Finns has been preserved, while the head size has been greatly increased.

In the facial dimensions, however, a menton-nasion height of 122.5 mm. equals that of Carelians and other Finns of smaller total size, while the bizygomatic mean, 145.8 mm., greatly exceeds the Finnish standard. The resultant facial index, 84.1, is therefore low, and the Livs are definitely euryprosopic. Other facial widths are also extremely great; the minimum frontal mean is 110 mm., that of the bigonial 113 mm. Hence a broad brow and an extremely broad jaw are essential Liv features, as is a wide distance between the eyes. Although no nasal measurements have been taken, observations show that the nasal profile is usually straight, with an upturned snub tip in many instances. The orbits are horizontal, the lips usually thin, the lines which stretch from the nose to the corners of the mouth strongly marked. The hair form, although straight in three-fourths of the sample, is not infrequently deeply waved or curly. Furthermore, the body hair and beard are characteristically heavy.

The head hair, most frequently ash-blond or light to medium brown, is shown by a correlation based on the Fischer chart to be lighter than that for the kingdom of Norway, which is, on the same basis, the lightest in Scandinavia.90 At the same time the eyes are specifically gray91 in 74 per cent of the group, while blue eyes are exceptional, and brown irises limited to 8 per cent of the whole.

The foregoing description of the Livs shows that their metrical resemblance to the mother-type of the Finns is not close, and that they must have derived much of their racial heritage from the earlier inhabitants of the eastern Baltic lowlands. At the same time they preserve, whether by convergence or by heredity, the head form of the eastern Finns, and some of the most characteristic Finnish facial features. Their chief difference from the Finnic prototype is an excess of body and head size, an excess of facial breadths, of blondism, and of hairiness. They represent an extreme form of what is designated in the present work as the East Baltic race, a racial entity in which the previously described Neo-Danubian race, whether acting through a Finnic or an Indo-European linguistic and cultural medium, is a contributing factor.

The Esthonians, who number over a million in their own country and some 150,000 in Russia, resemble the Livs in most respects.92 Tall stature of 172 cm. or over is typical of the Esths who live on the island of Ösel and along the northern and western coast; inland, means of 170 cm. are usual, while in the southeastern parishes this is reduced to 168 cm. There is some evidence that the tall stature of the Esths is in part due to a modern increase, since in 1878 regional recruit means draughted into the Russian army varied from 166 to 169 cm. In bodily proportions the Esths are seen to be frequently heavily built, with long bodies and the extremely high relative span of 107 or 108. It was this excessive development of the arms and shoulders, along with a wide mandible, that the Norwegians found most characteristic of the Finns who had affected the population of their southeastern provinces.

In head size and head form the Esths resemble the Livs closely, but are slightly longer headed, with a national cephalic index mean of 79.3. At the same time their faces are somewhat longer (124.7), while the excessive jaw breadth remains the same. What difference there is between the Esths and the Livs anthropometrically points to a greater Nordic content for the former, which is not surprising, since there have been a considerable mixture between Esths and Swedes, and a considerable absorption, in Esthonia, of early North Germans. The pigment character of the Esths is prevailingly blond, comparable to that of both Livs and Swedes; 56 per cent of the hair is called "fair," 43 per cent brown, and less than one per cent each are red and black. The eyes are blue in 25 per cent of cases, and gray in 51 per cent, while the brown class is said to include 13 per cent of the whole.

Two series of crania about 300 years old, from Esthonia and Livonia, show that the modern head form of the Livs and Esths dates back at least to that time.93 At the same time these skulls show that the immediate ancestors of these Baltic Finns were broad-faced, not infrequently wide-nosed, and often low-orbitted. They serve further to define the East Baltic racial type in this region.

Out in the Gulf of Riga, between the Liv villages and the larger island of Ösel, is a small island called Runö, inhabited by an old population of Swedish fishermen. These Swedes, the subject of a special investigation,94 closely resemble the Livs in most respects. The stature and head dimensions are the same, and the faces are equally broad. Nasal dimensions of 56 mm. and 37 mm. yield a nasal index of 66, which is leptorrhine as a mean, but one-fourth of the group is mesorrhine. The hair and eye colors are predominantly blond, and as great a blondism is found here as among the Livs. Ash-blond hair is found in over 60 per cent of the group. This series is not, however, as homogeneous as that of the Livs, but shows two distinct modes in a number of characters; one represents a sub-group with a stature of 176 cm., a cephalic index of 78.5, a high vault, and a nasal index of 63, while the other sub-group is characterized by a stature of 169 cm., a cephalic index of 80.5, a lower vault, and a nasal index of 67. Both sub-groups are equally blond, and equally ashen in hair color. These sub-groups may represent in the first case a Nordic of strong Corded inspiration, in the second case a more typically Finnic element. This division serves to emphasize the fact that in the East Baltic countries as elsewhere the predominant type of the population is not stable, but individuals showing older combinations are common.

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-IX10.htm

[Pure ja]

Here's a chapter from the Races of Europe, written by Coon.


So far there is no evidence of any considerable migration into Estonia and Latvia from the east, not "during the centuries immediately preceding and after the time of Christ."

And "a population of some density for centuries before the Finnish arrival" is to be read that the local Estonian and Latvian population density was higher than that to the east. Btw, the game animal populations in Estonia are also higher than that to the north and to the east (and actually also to the south). And Estonian coastal regions gave more fish and seals, and harboured more migratory bird flocks. So there is a logical explanation why the local population could have been more dense and thus relatively less influenced by migrations.

One would have needed all the men of Estonia to subjugate Saaremaa.

[Peikko]

So far there is no evidence of any considerable migration into Estonia and Latvia from the east, not "during the centuries immediately preceding and after the time of Christ."

And "a population of some density for centuries before the Finnish arrival" is to be read that the local Estonian and Latvian population density was higher than that to the east. Btw, the game animal populations in Estonia are also higher than that to the north and to the east (and actually also to the south). And Estonian coastal regions gave more fish and seals, and harboured more migratory bird flocks. So there is a logical explanation why the local population could have been more dense and thus relatively less influenced by migrations.

One would have needed all the men of Estonia to subjugate Saaremaa.

I know, Coon's migration theories are completely outdated. For example, genetics shows, that Baltic Finns aren't really related to Volga Finns. Anyway, I think his description of the population is still interesting.

[Pure ja]

I know, Coon's migration theories are completely outdated. For example, genetics shows, that Baltic Finns aren't really related to Volga Finns.


Southern baltic finns are genetically more related. Northern baltic finns are less related.

North-Estonian soils are on the Baltic Clint and thus more related to Gotland and south-eastern Sweden and Denmark. And that is also from where Estonia has got a lot of agricultural influences, also during the iron age.

South-eastern Estonia is less fertile for agriculture and their population densities have lagged the rest of Estonia.
South-western Estonia has got influences from Livonia and from further south. Whatever agricultural influences Estonia got during the iron ages, it was mostly from south and south-west and west; not so much from east. Eastern influences came about 400 AD to south-eastern Estonia, via setos.

[Peikko]

Southern baltic finns are genetically more related. Northern baltic finns are less related.

North-Estonian soils are on the Baltic Clint and thus more related to Gotland and south-eastern Sweden and Denmark. And that is also from where Estonia has got a lot of agricultural influences, also during the iron age.

South-eastern Estonia is less fertile for agriculture and their population densities have lagged the rest of Estonia.
South-western Estonia has got influences from Livonia and from further south. Whatever agricultural influences Estonia got during the iron ages, it was mostly from south and south-west and west; not so much from east. Eastern influences came about 400 AD to south-eastern Estonia, via setos.

What's also interesting is that Estonians really are more related to Balts than to Finns.

[Pure ja]

What's also interesting is that Estonians really are more related to Balts than to Finns.

That is easy to understand if one recalls that at the start of the iron age, most of the Latvian territory (and thus most of the Baltics to the south of the Bay of Finland) was still baltic-finnic. Finns are much more a genetic isolate and finns constituted the majority of baltic-finns only after the Livonian War, or possibly even only after the Great Nordic War. Before those wars, the majority of baltic-finns lived south to the Bay of Finland. :D

[Peikko]

That is easy to understand if one recalls that at the start of the iron age, most of the Latvian territory (and thus most of the Baltics to the south of the Bay of Finland) was still baltic-finnic. Finns are much more a genetic isolate and finns constituted the majority of baltic-finns only after the Livonian War, or possibly even only after the Great Nordic War. Before those wars, the majority of baltic-finns lived south to the Bay of Finland. :D
What I meant is, that the Corded Ware culture had much smaller impact on Finland, than it had to the Baltics. Probably you share some Baltic Finnic ancestry with Finns, but you share more ancestry with the Balts.

[Äike]

What I meant is, that the Corded Ware culture had much smaller impact on Finland, than it had to the Baltics. Probably you share some Baltic Finnic ancestry with Finns, but you share more ancestry with the Balts.

Estonians are genetically more proto-Finnic, also the Latvians, than the Finns are. We don't share ancestry with the Balts, we share ancestry with Finnics who now speak an Indo-European language.

The Baltic tribes have never migrated to Estonia nor lived here. The genetical influence is quite one-sided, with them assimilating the natives and not making it past the Livs.

[Peikko]

Estonians are genetically more proto-Finnic, also the Latvians, than the Finns are. We don't share ancestry with the Balts, we share ancestry with Finnics who now speak an Indo-European language.

The Baltic tribes have never migrated to Estonia nor lived here. The genetical influence is quite one-sided, with them assimilating the natives and not making it past the Livs.
No, in fact it's quite the opposite. Finns are more isolated and better preserved Baltic Finns, while Estonians have had much more Baltic and Slavic input. This is proven by the fact, that Estonia has 32% of R1a haplogroup, while Finland has only 7,5%. The other fact is, that Finland has way more of the original N1c-paternal lineages (58,5%), than Estonia (34%).
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif

In genetic distances Estonians cluster with Balts and Slavs, while Finns are relatively far from all our neighbours. Estonians do have slight drift towards Finland, which comes from the connection with South Finns. This map has been floating around anthroforums, but some other studies would really confirm it (Venäjä=Russia,Ruotsi=Sweden,Suomi=Finland,Viro=Es tonia):
http://i44.tinypic.com/qxa3ad.jpg

Slavic influences in Estonia also show in phenotypes, giving some Estonians (like yourself) more Eastern European vibe. Team Estonia:

These have Estonian names:
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/BARENGRUB.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/JAAGER.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/KLAVAN.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/PALATU.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/PIIROJA.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/TENISTE.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/KAMS.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/LINDPERE.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/PURI.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/RAHN.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/VUNK.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/AHJUPERA.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/KINK.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/OPER.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/POST.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/PURJE.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/SAAG.jpg

[Peikko]

I wonder how Finns got all those Baltic loanwords then.
Well, loanwords don't come with genes. Mostly through Baltic trade.

[Peikko]

Baltic loanwords in Finnish span various spheres of human existence. What indicates trades could be the only way?
Some of the Baltic loanwords may go way back. Before the Corded Ware culture, the populations of the Baltic states were probably mainly Finno-Ugrics. Lithuania still has large concentration of N1c.

[Pure ja]

What I meant is, that the Corded Ware culture had much smaller impact on Finland, than it had to the Baltics. Probably you share some Baltic Finnic ancestry with Finns, but you share more ancestry with the Balts.

What I mean, is that estonians share more southern baltic-finnic ancestry with balts (and balts with estonians).

[Pure ja]

Estonians are genetically more proto-Finnic, also the Latvians, than the Finns are. We don't share ancestry with the Balts, we share ancestry with Finnics who now speak an Indo-European language.

The Baltic tribes have never migrated to Estonia nor lived here. The genetical influence is quite one-sided, with them assimilating the natives and not making it past the Livs.

That is more or less what I had in mind.
If the iron-age population centre of baltic-finnics used to be to the south of the Bay of Finland, then one can't really argue that Finnish finns are more representative of iron-age baltic-finns.

I wouldn't be so categorical to claim that baltic tribes did not reach here. As baltic tribes, they didn't reach Estonia. As individuals and families they did. But even those 'balts' who reached Estonia were a far cry from the indo-europeans who originally beared the indo-european languages. Most of the 'balts' who arrived to Estonia were actually bilingual southern baltic-finns who probably didn't like the baltization in further south anyway: curonians to Saaremaa and Muhumaa, livonians to Sakala, Atšola / Akkola / Adzele to Ugandi, etc.

I also wouldn't claim that the genetic influence between balts and southern baltic-finns were one-sided. If it were, then balts wouldn't genetically group together with estonians, but with poles and belarussians instead (or at least would be closer to them). As I understand, there has been wife-swapping (and maybe also husband-swapping) within the Baltic region (the three Baltic states) since the stone age, and that practice probably broke down during the iron age (around the start of the common era, or even sooner), due to increasing population (and -densities). It was part of the same process during which agriculture gained prevalence (although it had been practiced and experimented with since 5000 BC here) and the region disintegrated into individual counties, which soon after joined to form loose confederal alliances.

[Pure ja]

Not really:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/37758-Completely-Mixed-Ethnic-Groups?p=1007516&viewfull=1#post1007516

There is newer information about N1c1 branches. However, whole N1c1 is not considered Finnic or Uralic anymore.

Comb Ceramic Culture is not associated with the spread of Uralic or Finnic speakers anymore.

Yes, Uralic and Finnic spread earlier than the comb ceramic.

And neither is R1a or R1b purely indo-european.

[Peikko]

Not really:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/37758-Completely-Mixed-Ethnic-Groups?p=1007516&viewfull=1#post1007516

There is newer information about N1c1 branches. However, whole N1c1 is not considered Finnic or Uralic anymore.

Comb Ceramic Culture is not associated with the spread of Uralic or Finnic speakers anymore.
Yes, but population of Finland didn't speak Finno-Ugric language at first either. I think I need to be more careful with mixing linguistic terms with haplogroups. Anyway, no matter what languages the Paleolithic hunter-gatherers spoke, Lithuanians have very large concentration of N1c1.


That is more or less what I had in mind.
If the iron-age population centre of baltic-finnics used to be to the south of the Bay of Finland, then one can't really argue that Finnish finns are more representative of iron-age baltic-finns.

Certainly not, in a sense, that Finns also have fair amount of I1. I think the current theory is, that Finns were largely language adopters, who adopted their Finnic-language from Baltic Finns. It's seems certainly so, that Finns don't descend from Esths, like was thought in older anthropological texts.


I wouldn't be so categorical to claim that baltic tribes did not reach here. As baltic tribes, they didn't reach Estonia. As individuals and families they did. But even those 'balts' who reached Estonia were a far cry from the indo-europeans who originally beared the indo-european languages.

This again depends on how we define "Balts". Are Balts the original population, or are they the result of the race mixing between Indo-Europeans and paleolithic tribes?

[Pure ja]

No, in fact it's quite the opposite. Finns are more isolated and better preserved Baltic Finns, while Estonians have had much more Baltic and Slavic input.


No.
Finns are more representative of the northern baltic-finns, while estonians are more representative of the southern baltic-finns.
Until the late medieval times, southern baltic-finns have been more numerous.




This is proven by the fact, that Estonia has 32% of R1a haplogroup, while Finland has only 7,5%. The other fact is, that Finland has way more of the original N1c-paternal lineages (58,5%), than Estonia (34%).
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif


As I mentioned before, N1c is not purely finnic, and finnic is not only N1c. And R1a and R1b are not only indo-european.

The picture I showed before:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.fi/2012/04/so-whos-most-european-of-us-all.html

The innermost core (the 3 Baltic states) represents the original southern-baltic-finnic area.
The outermost core represents the whole baltic-finnic area as recognized today.

That map is not a map of a spread of newer influences, it is primarily a map of lingering older 'european' presence. So for clarity, one should turn that map inside out and invert the scale (esp so because then the centre of white people would roughly coincide with the centre of white people ;) ).




In genetic distances Estonians cluster with Balts and Slavs, while Finns are relatively far from all our neighbours.


As I said, finns are much more a genetic isolate. AND finns have a bit more eastern influences, and those additional eastern influences among finns can't count for the arrival of finno-ugrians, because the population centre was to the south of the Bay of Finland and that area was less affected by those finnish eastern influences.




Slavic influences in Estonia also show in phenotypes, giving some Estonians (like yourself) more Eastern European vibe.


Most of those influences are not 'slavic', if you remember that estonians are at the inner core of europeanness. Russians are not even in the outer core, russians are in the close proximity of the core. And I repeat again, the europeanness core here is not a centre of the spread of influences, it is the inverse.

[Pure ja]

This again depends on how we define "Balts". Are Balts the original population, or are they the result of the race mixing between Indo-Europeans and paleolithic tribes?

There can't have happened extensive mixing of the inner core of europeanness with regions outside of the core.

[Pure ja]

Certainly not, in a sense, that Finns also have fair amount of I1. I think the current theory is, that Finns were largely language adopters, who adopted their Finnic-language from Baltic Finns.


I think that finns adopted only a newer more popular version of baltic-finnic language. That finns used to speak finnic or uralic even before that.




It's seems certainly so, that Finns don't descend from Esths, like was thought in older anthropological texts.


The 'estonian component' is still large, perhaps even over 50%, but that is not from one short specific period. There were several periods of migration to the north of Bay of Finland (and perhaps some to the south of Bay of Finland).

[Peikko]

No.
Finns are more representative of the northern baltic-finns, while estonians are more representative of the southern baltic-finns.
Until the late medieval times, southern baltic-finns have been more numerous.

Exactly. Finns basically aren't "Baltic Finns" genetically. We just speak Finnic-language. The Southern Baltic Finns are genetically closer to Balts, than to Finns.



And R1a and R1b are not only indo-european.

What do you mean by this? R1a in the Baltics surely came with Indo-Europeans, did it not?



As I said, finns are much more a genetic isolate. AND finns have a bit more eastern influences, and those additional eastern influences among finns can't count for the arrival of finno-ugrians, because the population centre was to the south of the Bay of Finland and that area was less affected by those finnish eastern influences.

Yes of course Finns have more Eastern influences, because we are more isolated and have less Indo-European/Slavic influences than Estonians. The Eastern influence probably is something the original population had all ready (like the Saamis for example). This again backs me up: Finns don't descend from Baltic Finns, but are much older genetic stock, which just adopted their language from the neighboring tribes (with some mixing involved too).

[Peikko]

I think that finns adopted only a newer more popular version of baltic-finnic language. That finns used to speak finnic or uralic even before that.

There's no such languages as Uralic or Finnic. Finns spoke some unknown paleolithic languages (just like all Northern Europeans before Indo-European expansion).

[Pure ja]

Not really:
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/37758-Completely-Mixed-Ethnic-Groups?p=1007516&viewfull=1#post1007516

There is newer information about N1c1 branches. However, whole N1c1 is not considered Finnic or Uralic anymore.

Comb Ceramic Culture is not associated with the spread of Uralic or Finnic speakers anymore.

That reference is actually just an abstract, not even a poster, certainly not a scientific article.
And that abstract conflicts with your understanding of the spread of finno-ugric: one assumes it took place 6000 years ago, the other assumes it took place 4000 years ago or later - you can't use that reference to support your conflcting views.

PS. Comb-ceramic arrived to Estonia and the Baltics as early as 7000 years ago, so that is another problem.
And while comb-ceramic arrived to the Baltics at roughly the same time with the first local experiments with agriculture, those agricultural experiences are more similar to what happened further south and south-west, not what happened in the east.

[Pure ja]

Exactly. Finns basically aren't "Baltic Finns" genetically. We just speak Finnic-language. The Southern Baltic Finns are genetically closer to Balts, than to Finns.


No.
Balts are genetically close to southern baltic-finns, because they used to be one.
Finns are northern baltic-finns, a genetic isolate of baltic-finns.




What do you mean by this? R1a in the Baltics surely came with Indo-Europeans, did it not?


I think it didn't come with indo-europeans.




Yes of course Finns have more Eastern influences, because we are more isolated and have less Indo-European/Slavic influences than Estonians. The Eastern influence probably is something the original population had all ready (like the Saamis for example). This again backs me up: Finns don't descend from Baltic Finns, but are much older genetic stock, which just adopted their language from the neighboring tribes (with some mixing involved too).

No, the older swiderian stock did not have that much (more recent) eastern influence. The larger eastern influence of finns is not a sign of old influence.

Same with saamis - part of their genetic makeup is atlantic (solutrean, basque, berber), part is 'finno-ugric', part is samoyedic. The samoyedic part is the most recent part - and that has also influenced karelians and veps (and finns), but not so much estonians and balts.

So the eastern influences came about 2000 and 7000 years ago (and the Baltics did not get the last one), but the 'amerindian' influences came even way before that. And neanderthal + denisovan influences before that.

[Pure ja]

There's no such languages as Uralic or Finnic. Finns spoke some unknown paleolithic languages (just like all Northern Europeans before Indo-European expansion).

That 'unknown paleolithic language' had some funny and very familiar words.
The oldest placename with a -mere or -meri in Estonia dates back about 12000 years, to before the Billingen event.
Some other quite finnic placenames suggest Allerod period geography right during and after Estonia was released from under the ice shield.

There are conflicting schools of thought and conflicting theories.
It also depends on how to define uralic, or finnic or estonian.
Frankly, sometimes I wonder whether estonian is still a finnic language, or where is the line when estonian would cease to be a finnic language.

[Äike]

No, in fact it's quite the opposite. Finns are more isolated and better preserved Baltic Finns, while Estonians have had much more Baltic and Slavic input. This is proven by the fact, that Estonia has 32% of R1a haplogroup, while Finland has only 7,5%. The other fact is, that Finland has way more of the original N1c-paternal lineages (58,5%), than Estonia (34%).
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif

In genetic distances Estonians cluster with Balts and Slavs, while Finns are relatively far from all our neighbours. Estonians do have slight drift towards Finland, which comes from the connection with South Finns. This map has been floating around anthroforums, but some other studies would really confirm it (Venäjä=Russia,Ruotsi=Sweden,Suomi=Finland,Viro=Es tonia):
http://i44.tinypic.com/qxa3ad.jpg

Slavic influences in Estonia also show in phenotypes, giving some Estonians (like yourself) more Eastern European vibe. Team Estonia:

These have Estonian names:
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/BARENGRUB.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/JAAGER.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/KLAVAN.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/PALATU.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/PIIROJA.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/TENISTE.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/KAMS.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/LINDPERE.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/PURI.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/RAHN.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/VUNK.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/AHJUPERA.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/KINK.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/OPER.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/POST.jpghttp://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/PURJE.jpg
http://www.fatbudda.org/ESTONIA/SAAG.jpg


Your knowledge in genetics is at a 12-year old level, literally.

1. If you had read any research about genetics in Northern-Europe, you would know that R1a in Estonia, Finland, Norway etc. has absolutely nothing to do with Slavs or Eastern-Europeans. Our R1a is from Central-Europe.

2. Estonians have no Baltic nor Slavic input whatsoever, neither have ever migrated here.

3. The proto-Finnic area is Southern-Estonia, the Finnic language started to spread from here. In case of the Finns, they assimilated a lot of the Saami, which means that they differ from us, proto-Finnics, genetically and by looks, to some level.

4. Finns look more Eastern-European than any Estonians, there's an east-baltid zone running from Finland to Belarus, through Russia. You have no idea how I look like if you think that I look Eastern-European. I look stereotypically Nordic and I pass as a native from Iceland to Estonia.


What I mean, is that estonians share more southern baltic-finnic ancestry with balts (and balts with estonians).

Exactly.

[Peikko]

No.
Balts are genetically close to southern baltic-finns, because they used to be one.
Finns are northern baltic-finns, a genetic isolate of baltic-finns.

Evidence?




I think it didn't come with indo-europeans.

Evidence?
In what world are you living in? In a world where Estonians look like Swedes and their language sounds like Dutch?



No, the older swiderian stock did not have that much (more recent) eastern influence. The larger eastern influence of finns is not a sign of old influence.

Same with saamis - part of their genetic makeup is atlantic (solutrean, basque, berber), part is 'finno-ugric', part is samoyedic. The samoyedic part is the most recent part - and that has also influenced karelians and veps (and finns), but not so much estonians and balts.

So the eastern influences came about 2000 and 7000 years ago (and the Baltics did not get the last one), but the 'amerindian' influences came even way before that. And neanderthal + denisovan influences before that.
Okay, you need to provide sources and stop inventing stuff up. Neanderthal influences :D ?

[Peikko]

Your knowledge in genetics is at a 12-year old level, literally.

2. Estonians have no Baltic nor Slavic input whatsoever, neither have ever migrated here.

The question is, why do you cluster with Balts and even Poles in genetic distances? And don't give me that BS for Polish people having any significant Finnic-inputs.



3. The proto-Finnic area is Southern-Estonia, the Finnic language started to spread from here. In case of the Finns, they assimilated a lot of the Saami, which means that they differ from us, proto-Finnics, genetically and by looks, to some level.

4. Finns look more Eastern-European than any Estonians, there's an east-baltid zone running from Finland to Belarus, through Russia. You have no idea how I look like if you think that I look Eastern-European. I look stereotypically Nordic and I pass as a native from Iceland to Estonia.

You need to stop living in a fantasy world. You don't look stereotypically Nordic and neither do Estonians. Don't get me wrong, wast majority of Estonians could pass in Finland and many could pass in Scandinavia too. Estonians don't look Latvians either, but this "Estonians look like Swedes" thing is just a fantasy of yours. I don't rally care if Finns look like Saamis or Yakuts. We are Nordic and you are not.

[Äike]

The question is, why do you cluster with Balts and even Poles in genetic distances? And don't give me that BS for Polish people having any significant Finnic-inputs.


You need to stop living in a fantasy world. You don't look stereotypically Nordic and neither do Estonians. Don't get me wrong, wast majority of Estonians could pass in Finland and many could pass in Scandinavia too. Estonians don't look Latvians either, but this "Estonians look like Swedes" thing is just a fantasy of yours. I don't rally care if Finns look like Saamis or Yakuts. We are Nordic and you are not.

Finns visibly look like east-baltid mongs quite often, while we completely lack the east-baltid stuff with some exceptions. Estonians and Swedes look more similar than Estonians and Finns, because of this reason, too much Saami/east-baltid stuff going on in Finland. You're just butt-hurt and trolling. I'll ignore your posts from now on. Also, leaving your village would be a good idea at one point.

[Peikko]

Finns visibly look like east-baltid mongs quite often, while we completely lack the east-baltid stuff with some exceptions. Estonians and Swedes look more similar than Estonians and Finns, because of this reason, too much Saami/east-baltid stuff going on in Finland. You're just butt-hurt and trolling. I'll ignore your posts from now on. Also, leaving your village would be a good idea at one point.
lol, I think it's you who is jeallous to Finns. Anyway, having you ignoring me is a plus, since you can't have a reasonable conversation. I'm quite sure that I've travelled more than an Estonian toilet cleaner.

[sevruk]

Finns visibly look like east-baltid mongs quite often, while we completely lack the east-baltid stuff with some exceptions.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39757991/1243112750.jpg

[Peikko]

That 'unknown paleolithic language' had some funny and very familiar words.
The oldest placename with a -mere or -meri in Estonia dates back about 12000 years, to before the Billingen event.
Some other quite finnic placenames suggest Allerod period geography right during and after Estonia was released from under the ice shield.

There are conflicting schools of thought and conflicting theories.
It also depends on how to define uralic, or finnic or estonian.
Frankly, sometimes I wonder whether estonian is still a finnic language, or where is the line when estonian would cease to be a finnic language.
Oh man, are you trying to play some Kalevi Wiik fantasy, that the Paleolithic languages were Uralic? What would Estonian be if not Finnic? Germanic XD ?

[sevruk]

It's amazing, but Finns more adequate people than Estonians

[Äike]

lol, I think it's you who is jeallous to Finns. Anyway, having you ignoring me is a plus, since you can't have a reasonable conversation. I'm quite sure that I've travelled more than an Estonian toilet cleaner.

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[Peikko]

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Lol not again with these old anthromaps. I can find anthromaps, where Latvians are more Nordic than Estonians.

To me it sounds like you're ashamed of Estonian roots. For me there's nothing wrong how these Estonians look like:

Female
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_y1HYoZ6ElrM/SgfHZryP0OI/AAAAAAAANF8/8GcGMeryRqQ/s1600/irja9.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_y1HYoZ6ElrM/SgfHUKM0n4I/AAAAAAAANF0/t6WNS4BcOsU/s1600/irja8.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_y1HYoZ6ElrM/SgfH2yrIzCI/AAAAAAAANGk/6KQ_KiIdFyM/s1600/irja14.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_y1HYoZ6ElrM/SgfHkXj1OOI/AAAAAAAANGM/gBM_cP3HHwA/s1600/irja11.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_y1HYoZ6ElrM/SgfHrrOILnI/AAAAAAAANGU/5nX47vcfSro/s1600/irja12.jpg
http://y.delfi.ee/norm/79211/4006251_wJRmlP.jpeg

Male
http://g4.nh.ee/images/pix/file27790161_tahismaad.jpg
http://rooma.postimees.ee/foto/0/0/61200454f1ec28fe22_3.jpg
http://g1.nh.ee/images/pix/900x585/9b79c83d/file64041779_1a774598.jpg
http://titeblogi.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/innojulia.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_y1HYoZ6ElrM/TLDROoP715I/AAAAAAAASjo/5PO9XZNRzpY/s640/page1_blog_entry47_1.jpg
http://titeblogi.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/isa.jpg

together
http://y.delfi.ee/norm/72033/3310377_3F35Nb.jpeg
http://s.ohtuleht.ee/multimedia/images/000155/x-ac218d5d-8f9e-45bb-9ee3-8cc525ca4278.jpg

[WOOHP]

Finns visibly look like east-baltid mongs quite often, while we completely lack the east-baltid stuff with some exceptions. Estonians and Swedes look more similar than Estonians and Finns, because of this reason, too much Saami/east-baltid stuff going on in Finland. You're just butt-hurt and trolling. I'll ignore your posts from now on. Also, leaving your village would be a good idea at one point.

Swedes(and Danes, Norwegians too ofc) are significantly CLOSER to Finns, than to Estonians. I'm sorry but the "mong" in Finns doesn't change anything.

Oh and btw, there is a mentionable number of East Baltids in Scandinavia.

[Dombra]

Karl, your people has been influenced by bats, slavs etc. while Finns have been influenced by OG Uralics. Deal with it.

[stemm99]

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I've noticed in your past postings that you hold an opinion that nordic phenotype among latvians is because we assimilated finnic livs, but these maps clearly show that east latvians (latgalians) are nordics, but livs never lived in that region... So it's seems like a contradiction for your theory. Could you comment on this?

[Äike]

Karl, your people has been influenced by bats, slavs etc. while Finns have been influenced by OG Uralics. Deal with it.

Balts nor Slavs have ever migrated nor lived in the borders of modern-day Estonia, never. Any person familiar with Northern-Euroepan history ( like me ) knows this. The Slavs and Balts have been influenced by Northern-European Finnics, but not the other way around.

If you start making statements with no proof whatsoever, you go into my ignore list, like that silly east-baltid Finn.


I've noticed in your past postings that you hold an opinion that nordic phenotype among latvians is because we assimilated finnic livs, but these maps clearly show that east latvians (latgalians) are nordics, but livs never lived in that region... So it's seems like a contradiction for your theory. Could you comment on this?

The Livs are the only southern-Finnic people, besides the Estonians, who survived long enough to be mentioned in historical writings, all the other southern-Finnics were assimilated long before by the Balts. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/European_Late_Neolithic.gif)

[Pure ja]

Evidence?


That is what I was trying to convey previously - if the iron age started with at least half of the Baltics as baltic-finnics.
It obviously means that it was even more so before the iron-age.
And the inner core of europeanness cannot have had any extensive influx from out of the core.
If balts cluster together with estonians, not with poles and belarussians, then that core was essentially southern baltic-finnic.



Evidence?


It would conflict with the existence of the europeanness core in the Baltics.
You are also missing something important - the europeanness core is very diverse in haplogroups.



In what world are you living in? In a world where Estonians look like Swedes and their language sounds like Dutch?


A lot of swedes look a lot like estonians, but not all of them.
Pitted Ware coastal culture was possibly baltic-finnic.



Okay, you need to provide sources and stop inventing stuff up. Neanderthal influences :D ?

Neanderthal influences in north europeans above that of europeans is a quite recent discovery.
Ditto for the 'amerindian' influences.

I was just trying to note that not all eastern influences are mongolian, not all are samoyedic and not all are finno-ugric.
Much of the influence is very-very old. And recent samoyedic couldn't possibly have a large influence on all baltic-finnics, because of population proportions.

[stemm99]

The Livs are the only southern-Finnic people, besides the Estonians, who survived long enough to be mentioned in historical writings, all the other southern-Finnics were assimilated long before by the Balts. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/European_Late_Neolithic.gif)
hmm I'm not sure whether you understood me... In your past postings about latvians and livs I've seen , you've claimed that latvians look nordic, because we assimilated livs or at least I've got that impression from your posts. My question is - if that's the case, why are latgalians shown as being of nordic phenotype on all the anthropological maps if livs never lived anywhere near that region (east Latvia)?

[Äike]

hmm I'm not sure whether you understood me... In your past postings about latvians and livs I've seen , you've claimed that latvians look nordic, because we assimilated livs or at least I've got that impression from your posts. My question is - if that's the case, why are latgalians shown as being of nordic phenotype on all the anthropological maps if livs never lived anywhere near that region (east Latvia)?

Assimilating Finnics. Did you see the map I posted?

[Dombra]

If you start making statements with no proof whatsoever, you go into my ignore list, like that silly east-baltid Finn.



Scary brah

[stemm99]

Assimilating Finnics. Did you see the map I posted?

Ok, question - if that's the case why aren't lithuanians nordic too?

And are you now claiming that all finnic tribes (including inland) were nordic?

[Äike]

Ok, question - if that's the case why aren't lithuanians nordic too?

Latvians have a lot more Northern-European ancestry than the Lithuanians do. The initial Baltic expansion into this part of Europe bogged down at about modern-day Latvia and the Balts moved northwards during the Great People's movement, started by the Huns. Then after that, Latvia was about evenly split between Finnics and Balts. After that, the remaining Finnics were gradually assimilated, even less Balto-Slavic blood made it to Latvia.

Still, when I look at modern-day Latvians, a large part of them look foreign and "Balto-Slavic"/Eastern-European to me, even with their proved Northern-European/Finnic heritage.

[Dombra]

And are you now claiming that all finnic tribes (including inland) were nordic?

He´s just looney

[Peikko]

Ok, question - if that's the case why aren't lithuanians nordic too?

And are you now claiming that all finnic tribes (including inland) were nordic?
Actually, I don't think Karl has read any anthropology, but is just inventing stuff up. The Coon's theory was, that the Indo-Europeans were originally dolicocephalic mediterranean types and that's how the Nordic type came to Northern Europe. According to Coon, Indo-European influence in Latvia and Lithuania brought the Nordic type there. The Nordic type became brachycephalized, because the Balts mixed with the original Eastern European Upper Paleolithic survivors. The Nordic type in Finland and Estonia came (according to Coon) from Swedish influence and the original Finnics were mainly Upper Paleolithic brachycephalics. So basically, Latvians and Lithuanians were originally more Nordic than Finns and Esths. This is just according to Coon, so I consider it out dated theory.

[stemm99]

Latvians have a lot more Northern-European ancestry than the Lithuanians do.



Do you base this claim on facts?

btw I'm not against this theory, but it seems quite bogus...

[sevruk]

Karl is nonsense. Balto-Slavs lived in Estonia for 2000 years BC. If Carl learned north-European history, he must have known of the so-called Estonian Corded Ware culture.

I can also give an example article Soviet anthropologist who claimed that Estonians are finicised Balts.

[Äike]

He´s just looney

Finnic people, even to this day, are the blondest and most Northern (by phenotype) Europeans. Scandinavia was also Finnic before the Germanics went there, them assimilating the natives added to them being considerably lighter than other Indo-Europeans.

[stemm99]

Actually, I don't think Karl has read any anthropology, but is just inventing stuff up. The Coon's theory was, that the Indo-Europeans were originally dolicocephalic mediterranean types and that's how the Nordic type came to Northern Europe. According to Coon, Indo-European influence in Latvia and Lithuania brought the Nordic type there. The Nordic type became brachycephalized, because the Balts mixed with the original Eastern European Upper Paleolithic survivors. The Nordic type in Finland and Estonia came (according to Coon) from Swedish influence and the original Finnics were mainly Upper Paleolithic brachycephalics. So basically, Latvians and Lithuanians were originally more Nordic than Finns and Esths. This is just according to Coon, so I consider it out dated theory.

I'm aware of this theory, and I probably lean more towards this one as being closer to truth than that which Karl postulates.

[Äike]

Do you base this claim on facts?

btw I'm not against this theory, but it seems quite bogus...

Historical facts. If you ever studied it at an academical level, like I do, you wouldn't even try to argue against me.

[Dombra]

Finnic people, even to this day, are the blondest and most Northern (by phenotype) Europeans. Scandinavia was also Finnic before the Germanics went there, them assimilating the natives added to them being considerably lighter than other Indo-Europeans.

Northern =/= Nordic though

[Äike]

Northern =/= Nordic though

Finnics are the most Northern-European Europeans by phenotype, Scandinavians come 2nd, as they have Indo-European/Neolithic blood, which we lack.

[sevruk]

I translated an article using Google Translate


Raisa Denisova

Baltic tribes in the territory of the Baltic Finns

Published in the journal " Latvijas Vesture " (" History of Latvia ») № February 1991


Habitat of the Baltic tribes in ancient times was much more extensive lands of modern Latvia and Lithuania. In the 1st millennium the southern boundary of the Balts extended from the upper reaches of the Oka River in the east through the middle reaches of the Dnieper to the Bug and the Vistula River to the west. In the north of the territory bordered on the lands of the Balts finougorskih tribes.

As a result of the differentiation of the latter, may already have the 1st millennium BC of which emerged a group of Baltic Finns. During this time, the band formed and the contact with the Baltic tribes finobaltami along the Daugava River to its headwaters .

Area of these contacts was not a result of the onslaught of the Balts in the north, but the result of the gradual establishment of an ethnically mixed area in Vidzeme and Latgale.

In the literature we can find a lot of evidence the influence of culture , language and physical type finobaltov on Baltic tribes , which occurred in the course of the mutual influence of cultures of these tribes , and as a result of intermarriage . At the same time, to date, still little research on the problem of the influence of the Balts finoyazychnye the people of this area.

This problem is too complex to solve it overnight. So pay attention only to some of the essential characteristic of the discussion questions for further study which could contribute to the study of linguists and archaeologists.

The southern border of the Baltic tribes has always been the most vulnerable and " open" to migration and foreign attack . The ancient tribes , as we now understand , at times of military threat often leave their land and go to a more protected area.

The classic example in this sense, could serve as the relocation of ancient Nevres from south to north, into the pool of Pripyat and the headwaters of the Dnieper , the event confirmed as evidence of Herodotus, and the archaeological research.

The first millennium BC was particularly difficult period in the history of the ethnic Balts , and in the history of the European peoples in general . To mention only a few events that have influenced the movement and migration of the Baltic Fleet at the time.

In the said period, the southern territory of the Baltic tribes were affected by all kinds of migrations is clearly of a military nature . As early as the 3rd century BC Sarmatians and Scythians ravaged land Budins the territories in the middle reaches of the Dnieper. With the 2-1 century, these raids have reached the Baltic States in the Pripyat basin . In the course of several centuries, Sarmatians conquered Pontic steppe zone in all the land of historical Scythia down to the Danube. There they became the decisive factor in war .

In the first centuries of our era, in the south- west in the immediate vicinity of the territory of the Balts (basin of the Vistula ) appear ready to tribes that formed Wielbark culture. The impact of these tribes also reached Pripyat basin , but the main stream Gothic migration was sent to the steppes of the Black Sea, where they, along with the Slavs , and Sarmatians established a new education (territory Chernyahiv Culture), which lasted about 200 years.

But the most important event of the 1st millennium was invading nomadic Huns in the area of ​​the Black Sea steppes in the east that destroyed public education Hermanarich and involved a decade of devastating war in ceaseless all the tribes from the Don to the Danube. In Europe, this event connect the beginning of the Great Migration . This wave of migration particularly among the tribes that inhabited the Eastern, Central Europe and the Balkans land .

Echo of the events also reached Eastern States. A century later, after the start of a new era in Lithuania and the Baltic States appear South Western Baltic tribes , who created a culture of "long barrows " in the late 4th - early 5th century.

In the early days of the "Iron Age" ( 7-1 cc. BCE ) is the largest East -Baltic area was in the Dnieper basin and on the territory of modern Belarus , dominated BALTa Hydronyms . Belonging to the antiquity of the Baltic States today is a generally accepted fact. Territory north of the upper reaches of the Daugava River to the Gulf of Finland until the first appearance here was inhabited by Slavs finoyazychnye Baltic tribes - Livs , Estonians , all , Ingram, Izhorians , votichi .

It is believed that the most ancient names of rivers and lakes in the area - finougorskogo origin. Recently, however, there was a scientific reassessment of ethnic names of rivers and lakes in the ancient lands of Novgorod and Pskov. The results revealed that in the area of the Baltic origin Hydronyms actually less common than in Finland . This may reflect the fact that the tribal lands of the ancient Finns appeared once and left a significant cultural footprint Baltic tribes .

In the archaeological literature acknowledged the presence of the Baltic components in the said territory . It usually refers to the time the relocation of the Slavs , whose motion in the north- west of Russia, may include some Baltic tribes . But now, as in the ancient Novgorod and Pskov stated a lot of the Baltic hydronyms logical to admit the idea of self and the impact on the Baltic Baltic nations finougorskie even before the arrival of the Slavs.

Also in the archaeological material in Estonia there is a big impact Baltic culture . But then the result of this influence is ascertained much more specific. According to archaeologists , the era of the "middle Iron Age " ( 5-9 cc. AD) metal culture (casting , jewelry, weapons , equipment ) on Estonian territory is not developed on the basis of cultural iron objects previous period. At the initial stage, the source of new forms of metal steel Semigallians , Samogitians and ancient Prussians .

In cemeteries , in the excavation of settlements on the territory of Estonia found characteristic of the Balts items of metal. Influence of Baltic culture as stated in ceramics , construction of dwellings and burial traditions. Thus, starting from the 5th century , in the material and spiritual culture of the Estonian Baltic marked influence of culture . In the 7-8 centuries . here too there is the influence of the south- east - from the region Bantserovskoy East Baltic culture (upper reaches of the Dnieper and Belarus).

Cultural factor Latgalians compared to the same influence of other Baltic tribes is less pronounced , and only at the end of one millennium in southern Estonia. Explain the causes of the phenomenon already mentioned only the penetration of the Baltic culture without migration within these tribes is virtually impossible . This is confirmed by anthropological data .

In the scientific literature there Entrenched idea that the Neolithic culture in this habitat belong to some ancient predecessors Estonians. But finougry mentioned are physically complex of signs ( shape of the head and face) are very different from the modern inhabitants of Estonia. Therefore , from an anthropological point of view between the cultures of the Neolithic pottery and contemporary Estonian cultural layer is observed close succession.

Interesting data gives an anthropological study of contemporary Baltic nations . They show that the Estonian anthropological type (parameters of the head and face , height) is very similar to the Latvian and especially characteristic of the ancient population of the territory zemgaltsev . On the contrary, Latgale anthropological component Estonians hardly represented and guess only here in southern Estonia. Ignoring the same influence on the formation of the Baltic tribes Estonian anthropological type illuminate that similarity is hardly possible .

Thus , this phenomenon can be explained based on the anthropological and archaeological evidence , the expansion of the Balts the said territory of Estonia in the process of intermarriage , which influenced the formation of the anthropological type of the local Finnish peoples , as well as - in their culture.


Unfortunately, any cranial ( skull) , belonging to one millennium in Estonia have not been found - this is due to the traditions of cremation in the funeral rite. But the study said the problem give us important data finds 11-13 centuries . Craniology Estonian population of this period and also gives an indication of the anthropological composition of the population of previous generations in the area.

Already in the 50's ( 20th century) Estonian anthropologist K.Marka stated ( a) the presence in the Estonian complex of 11-13 centuries . a number of features ( massive structure elongated skulls with a narrow face and high ) , characteristic of the anthropological type Semigallians . Recent studies burial 11-14 centuries . in the north- east of Estonia fully supports resemblance to Zemgale anthropological type craniological findings in the area of Estonia ( Viru ) .

Indirect evidence of the possible migration to the north of the Baltic tribes in the second half of the 1st millennium , and also data from the North Vidzeme - skulls from burial 13-14 centuries Anes Aluksneskogo district ( county Bundzenu ) having characteristic Semigallians similar set of symptoms. But of particular interest is received cranial remains from the burial ground Asares Aluksneskogo district. There were only open a few graves , dated 7th century . The cemetery is located on the territory of residence of the ancient tribes finougorskih and refers to a time before the arrival of Latgallians in North Vidzeme. Here , in the anthropological type of the population we can again discern similarities with semigallia . So , anthropological evidence suggests movement of the Baltic tribes in the second half of the 1st millennium through the middle lane Vidzeme to the north.

It must be said that the formation of the Latvian language important place belonged to " the middle of the dialect ." Ya Endzelinsh believes that " language is spoken language Cours " middle " arose out of the Semigallian dialect , with the addition of elements dialect " verhnelatyshskogo ", and possibly language Sellonian - the ancient inhabitants of central Vidzeme " 10 What are the other tribes of this area influenced the formation of " a middle dialect " ? Archaeological and anthropological data today is not enough to answer this question.

However, we will be closer to the truth if we assume that these tribes are related Semigallians - Asares burial burial ground on a number of anthropological traits are similar to them, but it 's still not completely identical.

Estonian eesti ethnonim strikingly echoes the name mentioned in the 1st century by Tacitus stork (Aestiorum Gentes) in the south- east coast of the Baltic Sea , which are identified by scientists from the Baltic States. Also, about 550 years old Jordan puts stork (Aesti) east of the mouth of the Vistula.

The last time the Baltic stork mentioned in Vulfstana in connection with the description of the ethnonym " easti ." According to J. Endzelinya , this term could be borrowed from Old Vulfstanom where easte means " eastern " 11 This suggests that the ethnonym stork was not self-designation of the Baltic tribes . They may have been so named (as it often was in antiquity ) neighbors of the Germans , who, however , called that of its eastern neighbors ..

Obviously, it is because on the territory inhabited by the Balts word ' stork ' (to my knowledge ) does not " seen" in the names of places. Therefore, we can conceive that the term " Stork" ( easte ) - which may have linked the Baltic Germans , mainly in the manuscripts of the Middle Ages tells about some of their neighbors.

Recall that in the period of the Great Migration Angles, Saxons and Jutes crossed the British Isles , where he subsequently through them is the name of the Balts could persist for a long time. It seems plausible , since the Baltic tribes inhabited the area in the 1st millennium occupies a very important place in the political and ethnic map of Europe , so it is not surprising that they should have known would be there .

Perhaps the Germans eventually began to refer ethnonym "stork" to all the tribes that inhabited the lands east of the Baltic Sea , for Vulfstan parallel with the term refers to a Eastland, ignorant while Estonia. Since the 10th century this POLYTONE already assigned exclusively to Estonians . Scandinavian sagas mention the Estonian land as Aistland. In the chronicle of Indrikis mentioned Estonia or Latvia Estlandia and people Estones , although Estonians call themselves maarahvas - " people ( their ) land."

Only in the 19th century Estonians adopt the name Eesti. for his people. This indicates that the Estonian people did not borrow from their ethnonym mentioned by Tacitus in the 1st century AD, the Balts .

But this conclusion does not change the substance of the question of the symbiosis of the Balts and Estonians in the second half of the 1st millennium. This question is the least studied from the point of view of linguistics. Therefore, investigation of ethnic Estonian place names could be an important source of information and historical .

Russian chronicle " The Tale of Bygone Years " contains the names of two finougoskih the mention of the Baltic tribes . If you take it on faith that the names of the tribes , obviously , are located in a particular sequence , we can assume that both lists are responsible geographic location of these tribes. First of all - in the north -west (where the starting point is taken, obviously Staraya Ladoga and Novgorod) , to the east as mentioned finougorskie tribes . After listing these nations for the chronicler would be logical to follow further to the west , which he does by mentioning the Balts and Liv in the sequence , an adequate number of them :

1. Lithuania , zimigola , kors , trying , lib ;
2 . Lithuania , zimegola , kors , letgola , lyub .

These transfers interest us here in so far as they featured a tribe
" Norova ." Where was their territory ? What was the ethnicity of the tribe ? Discern whether any archaeological equivalent of " tetchy " ? Why Norova once mentioned Latgalians instead ? Of course , just to give a complete answer to all these questions is impossible. But try to imagine that the main aspect of the problem , as well as the possible direction of future research.

These lists of tribes in the PVL were dated before the 11th century. Recent studies suggest that they are older and the tribes that inhabited these territories not in the 9th , not to the first half of the 10th veka.12 try to somehow locate the term " Narva " from the names of places , it is possible to what is happening. Picture of them ( people) location encompasses a large area finnobaltov in northwestern Russia - from Novgorod in the east to the border of Estonia and Latvia in the west.

Here are located many of the names of rivers , lakes and villages, as well as mentioned in various written sources of personal names , the origin of which is associated with the ethnonym " Narva ". In this region, "tracks" in the name of the ethnic group Nars place names are very stable and are found in documents since the 14.- 15th centuries .. For these items are associated with a tribe of Narva , there are so many variations Norova / narova / nereva / neroma / morova / mereva and drugie13

According to D. Machinsky , this region corresponds to the area of long burial mounds 5-8 centuries that stretch from Estonia and Latvia to the east up to Novgorod. But these graves are mainly concentrated on both sides of the river and Lake Peipsi Velikaya14 . Reported long barrows partially explored in the east Latgale and the north- east. The range of their distribution captures the north- east of Vidzeme ( parish Ilzene ) .

Ethnicity long burial mounds is estimated differently . V. Sedov said their Russian (or Kriviches in Latvian is one word - Bhalu), ie , tribal burial of the first wave of the Slavs in the said territory , although the material these tombs obvious Balt component. Slavs were also attributed as long grave mounds in Latgale. Today Russian ethnicity is not assessed as clear-cut for Russian chronicles and do not indicate that the initial Russ would speak the language of the Slavs.

There is a perception of belonging Krivichy States. While recent archaeological studies suggest that the Slavic tribes in the north -west of Russia did not appear before the middle of the 8th century . Thus , the question of Slavic accessories burial mounds long no longer relevant.

Opposing views are reflected in the studies of Estonian archaeologist M. Aoun . In the south- east of Estonia mounds burials belong to the Baltic finnam16 , but also highlighted the Baltic komponenta17 . These conflicting results archeology today complemented the findings as to the identity of long barrows in the lands of Pskov and Novgorod tribes " Norova ." Approval is based on the fact the only reason that the ethnonym Nerom - Finnish descent , because finougorskih languages ​​Noro means " low , low place , the swamp " 18.

But this interpretation of the ethnic name norovas / neromas is too simplistic because it does not taken into account other relevant facts that are relevant to said subject. First of all, the special attention given to the Russian chronicles named ner ( Narva ) : " That is to say zhemoit ner ."

So, in the words of the chronicler, ner similar to Lowland . D. Machinsky believes that such a comparison is illogical and therefore does not consider it at all, because otherwise it should be recognized that the ner - zhemayty19 . In our view , the basis of this laconic phrase has a specific and very important meaning.

Chances are references to these tribes is not a comparison , it is obvious chronicler sure Nerom Samogitians and spoke the same language . It is quite possible that in that sense , and should be understood in the language of ancient references to these tribes. This idea was confirmed by another similar example . Chroniclers often transferred to the name of the Cumans and Tatars on the Polovtsian , apparently assuming that they all belong to the same Turkic peoples .

So, it would be logical to conclude that the scribe was an educated and well -informed regarding the tribes referred to them . Therefore, a total likely that the people who are mentioned in Russian chronicles called norova / neroma, should be considered as the Balts .

However, this conclusion is not limited to this important scientific problem with the tribes ner . In this context it should be mentioned point of view, adequately expressed in scientific research dedicated to Neurim P.Shmita . The author draws attention to a possible explanation of the ethnonym ner . Schmitt writes that mentioned in the chronicle of Nestor in several variants name " ner " means land " Nehru " where the suffix- ma is finoyazychnym " maa " - the land . He further concludes that the Vilna River , which in the language of the Lithuanians also known as Neris may also etymologically related to " neriyami " or neurie " 20.

Thus, the word ' ner "can be associated with" Nevrs " Baltic tribes of the 5th century BC, Herodotus mentioned are probably in the upper reaches of the Southern Bug , archaeologists identified Nevres with the area of culture Milogradskoy 7-1 centuries BC, but localized them, however, in the upper reaches of the Dnieper , in accordance with the evidence of Pliny and Marcellin . Of course , the question of the etymology of the ethnonym Nevres and its connection with neromu / norovu is the subject of the competence of linguists , whose research in this area we are still waiting .


The names of the rivers and lakes, connected with the ethnonym neuritis, localized to a very wide area . Its southern boundary may designate from around the lower reaches of the Warta in the west to the middle reaches of the Dnieper on vosttoke21 in the north as it covers the territory of the ancient Finns States. In this region we find the names of places , coincident with the ethnonym norova / narova. They are located in the upper reaches of the Dnieper ( Narew ), 22 in Belarus, and to the south- east (Naravai / Neravai) in Lithuania 23.

If we assume that mentioned in Russian chronicles Norov finoyazychnym people, then how do we explain the similar place names mentioned throughout this territory? Toponymic and gidronimicheskoe line localization of the ancient territory of the Baltic tribes obvious. Therefore, based on this aspect of the given arguments on the Finnish accessories norovas / neromas doubt.

According to linguist R. Aheeva , Hydronyms rooted Nar-/Ner ( Narus , Narupe , Nara , Narew , often , as the river Narva in medieval Latin version of her - Narva , nerves ) could be of Baltic origin . Recall that in the north -west of Russia R. Aheeva opened a lot hydronyms considered Balt origin, which may relate to the culture of long barrows . Reasons for joining the Balts in ancient Baltic Finns in the north -west of Russia is probably due to the socio -political situation in the era of the Great Migration .


Of course, in the said territory Balts lived side by side with the Baltic Finns , which contributed as intermarriage among these tribes , as well as the interaction of culture. This is reflected in the archaeological material culture of long barrows . From the middle of the 8th century , when there are Slavs , ethnic situation has become more complicated . It also severed the fate of the Baltic ethnic groups in the area.

Unfortunately, craniological material from burial mounds no longer , because here there was a tradition of cremation . But the skull, extracted from the 11-14 century cemeteries in the area , obviously favor the anthropological components of the Balts in the local population. There are two types of anthropology . One of them is similar to the Latgale , the second - typical for Semigallians and Samogitians . It remains unclear which of them was the basis of the population of culture long barrows .

Further investigation of this issue , as well as discussions on the Baltic ethnic history , obviously are interdisciplinary . Their further research could contribute to the study of various related industries that can clarify and deepen made ​​in this publication conclusions.

[Dombra]

Finnics are the most Northern-European Europeans by phenotype, Scandinavians come 2nd, as they have Indo-European/Neolithic blood, which we lack.

I highly doubt that the nordic subrace was the original indigenous people if Finnic swas supposted to be the first people.

Nordish/Northern is true but Nordic came from the south later.

[Pure ja]

The question is, why do you cluster with Balts and even Poles in genetic distances? And don't give me that BS for Polish people having any significant Finnic-inputs.


No, the real question is why balts cluster with estonians, not with poles. That is, if it is so.

[Pure ja]

Finns visibly look like east-baltid mongs quite often, while we completely lack the east-baltid stuff with some exceptions. Estonians and Swedes look more similar than Estonians and Finns, because of this reason, too much Saami/east-baltid stuff going on in Finland.

i would not put all of Finland into one basket.
Genetics actually gives a rather even circum-baltic picture. Southern finns are equidistant from northern estonians and from east-central swedes.

The line of difference seems to have been somewhere on the Onega (or Laadoga) - Tornio line. To the east of that line has more eastern influence, to the west has less eastern influence. Baltic Sea seafarers are to the west.

Even the 7000 years old influx of easterners can be identified only at Onega and Laadoga, but has not yet been identified in the Baltics (as far as I have read).

[Peikko]

No, the real question is why balts cluster with estonians, not with poles. That is, if it is so.
1. Neighboring countries always cluster with each other
2. Both Estonians and Balts share the same Paleolithic/Mesolithic genetic basis. And both have after that had inputs from Corded Ware culture (and possibly from the neighboring Slavics)

[Pure ja]

Oh man, are you trying to play some Kalevi Wiik fantasy, that the Paleolithic languages were Uralic? What would Estonian be if not Finnic? Germanic XD ?

Well, how would you explain germanic estonians switching into baltic-finnic?
During the Roman iron age, because of considerable infux of "baltic-finns" from the east? They supposedly took Estonia, then Saaremaa and finally Gotland? There is no evidence of that. There is however evidence that Estonian county system emerged about 2000 years ago, and local archeology shows strong regionalisation, not disruptions from the east.

And why would germanic estonians switch to baltic-finnic when the Estonian iron-age agricultural package received ideas from south-west along the Baltic Clint line?

If the inner core of europeanness is in the Baltics, then there had to be less changes in the Baltic region than elsewhere in Europe.

[Pure ja]

Swedes(and Danes, Norwegians too ofc) are significantly CLOSER to Finns, than to Estonians.


You are simply wrong.




Oh and btw, there is a mentionable number of East Baltids in Scandinavia.

Evidently, because gotlanders have only twice less N1c than estonians.

[Dombra]

Discussion is simply not possible with Estonians, must be their Russian culture

[Pure ja]

I've noticed in your past postings that you hold an opinion that nordic phenotype among latvians is because we assimilated finnic livs, but these maps clearly show that east latvians (latgalians) are nordics, but livs never lived in that region... So it's seems like a contradiction for your theory. Could you comment on this?

I don't know about Karl, but when I look at those maps, I see evidence that Väina livonians and their finnic relatives used to extend much further south-east. And btw, Väina livonians DID live way inland.

[sevruk]

Discussion is simply not possible with Estonians, must be their Russian culture

no. Estonians worse;)

[Peikko]

i would not put all of Finland into one basket.
Genetics actually gives a rather even circum-baltic picture. Southern finns are equidistant from northern estonians and from east-central swedes.

The line of difference seems to have been somewhere on the Onega (or Laadoga) - Tornio line. To the east of that line has more eastern influence, to the west has less eastern influence. Baltic Sea seafarers are to the west.

Even the 7000 years old influx of easterners can be identified only at Onega and Laadoga, but has not yet been identified in the Baltics (as far as I have read).
The funny thing is, that Karelians are "truer" Finnics than actual Finns. They have quite different origins than Finns and were isolated from us most of the history. In fact, most parts of Karelia never became part of the kingdom. Mixing with Karelians started to occure in Eastern Finland after some parts like Northern Savonia became part of the Kindom around 1600s and Finns started to spread there.

[Peikko]

Discussion is simply not possible with Estonians, must be their Russian culture
They just have crazy theories. Pure Ja actually believes, that Estonian language sounds like Dutch.

[Peikko]

You are simply wrong.




Evidently, because gotlanders have only twice less N1c than estonians.
N1c doesn't have anything to do with East Baltic phenotype.

This girl is Icelandic:
http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/58/606642119727479fac381b81ecbb31ff/l.jpg

This guy is Danish:
http://ad009cdnb.archdaily.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/1283535798-bjarke-ingels-image-by-jakob-glatt-02-528x303.jpg

Are you saying that they're Finnics?

[Pure ja]

Latvians have a lot more Northern-European ancestry than the Lithuanians do. The initial Baltic expansion into this part of Europe bogged down at about modern-day Latvia and the Balts moved northwards during the Great People's movement, started by the Huns. Then after that, Latvia was about evenly split between Finnics and Balts. After that, the remaining Finnics were gradually assimilated, even less Balto-Slavic blood made it to Latvia.


While it is true that by the start of the iron age, Baltic region was about evenly baltic vs. baltic-finnic, I would not call lithuanians as less genetically nordic, since genetically they cluster together with latvians and estonians. Lithuanians are culturally less nordic only if one considers nordic as Baltoscandian seafarers. Lithuanians were not much of a seafarers.

[Hevo]

They just have crazy theories. Pure Ja actually believes, that Estonian language sounds like Dutch.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/1/16518/3221507-2307282-55860__jj_jameson_laughing_meme_1.jpg

[Pure ja]

And are you now claiming that all finnic tribes (including inland) were nordic?

Culturally, absolutely!
Komis are culturally more nordic than any germanic scandinavians. Or rather, komis represent 'old nordic', while germanic scandinavians represent 'new nordic'.

Of course, it is evident that 'nordic' means different things to different people.
To baltic-finns, nordic means Põhjala / Pohjola.

[Temujin]

Latvians have a lot more Northern-European ancestry than the Lithuanians do.

How did you determine the amount of Northern-European ancestry in Latvians and Lithuanians? From the fact that Latvia is further north than Lithuania?

This is from Eurogenes project. It's only an experimental analysis based on genetic data which is better than unsubstantiated claims.


Basically, the first map below reveals the answer. It shows the spread of a European specific cluster from a global-wide ADMIXTURE analysis at K=8 (eight ancestral populations assumed), which I call "North European".

Lithuanians 77%
Finns 74%
Belorussians 70%
Swedes 69%
Norwegians 68%
Vologda Russians 68%
Russians 68%
Poles 68%
Erzya 66%
Ukrainians 66%
Moksha 66%
Orcadians 63%
HapMap Utah Americans (CEU) 63%
Irish 63%
British 62%

Source: http://bga101.blogspot.com/2012/04/so-whos-most-european-of-us-all.html





The initial Baltic expansion into this part of Europe bogged down at about modern-day Latvia and the Balts moved northwards during the Great People's movement, started by the Huns. Then after that, Latvia was about evenly split between Finnics and Balts. After that, the remaining Finnics were gradually assimilated, even less Balto-Slavic blood made it to Latvia.


Do you have sources confirming Balts movement into eastern Baltic region happened during Huns times i.e. in the 4th-6th century? This is the time frame when Slavs moved in NW Russia and Belarus mixing with autochthonous populations, whereas Balts settled eastern Baltic region much earlier.

Marija Gimbutas wrote in her book on the Balts. Note the expansion happened in 2300-2200 BC.



Physical type as shown by excavated skeletons also confirms the intrusion of new people into the East Baltic area and central Russia. Skulls from graves of the Kurgan (Corded, Boat-Axe, Fat’janovo) culture differ considerably in measurement from those in the graves or settlements of the hunter-fishers of the Comb-marked and Pitted-Ware culture. Those from the graves of the Kurgan culture were long and Europoid; those from the hunter-fisher sites were of medium length or short, with wide face, flat nose, and high eye-sockets. The latter traits are generally similar to those of the Finno-Ugrian peoples of western Siberia. Furthermore, the skulls from hunter-fisher sites in Estonia have shown a certain mixed type presumed to be derived from a combination of Europoid and Mongoloid elements. Their appearance is close to that of the present Manti, Chanti, Samoyeds, and Lapps, all of which belong to the Uralic race. The Europoid skulls from the graves of the newcomers in the East Baltic area almost exactly correspond to those known from northern Poland (former East Prussia), which again indicates diffusion along the coasts of the Baltic Sea.. The skulls from the Fat’janovo graves are also very similar, and about the same type is found in the Kurgan graves of the steppe area along the lower Dnieper. The mixture of the two racial types must have started immediately, since we know several Kurgan (so-called “Boat-Axe”) graves from Estonia in which skulls with Mongoloid traits appeared.1

Source: http://www.vaidilute.com/books/gimbutas/gimbutas-02.html

There was a fusion of people belonging to 2 different cultures in pre-historic times forming the same cluster in eastern Baltic region. Some people kept Uralic languages, other kept IE languages.

[Pure ja]

Latvians have a lot more Northern-European ancestry than the Lithuanians do. The initial Baltic expansion into this part of Europe bogged down at about modern-day Latvia and the Balts moved northwards during the Great People's movement, started by the Huns.

Perhaps I should reiterate that this expansion was mostly cultural, not genetic. Genetic expansion had to happen further south.

[Peikko]

Northern =/= Nordic though
Finns look more Nordic than Swedes, though. Let me elaborate.

A Swede:
http://cdn.sportsoverdose.com/thumbs/jhonas-enroth-1-nhl.jpg

A Finnish übermensch:
http://is12.snstatic.fi/img/978/1288577490766.jpg

[Pure ja]

Karl is nonsense. Balto-Slavs lived in Estonia for 2000 years BC. If Carl learned north-European history, he must have known of the so-called Estonian Corded Ware culture.

I can also give an example article Soviet anthropologist who claimed that Estonians are finicised Balts.

Fascinating fairy-tales.

Perhaps you should read this instead:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rzucewo_culture

The Rzucewo (also Rutzau or Bay Coast culture, German: Haffküstenkultur, 2700 BC)[1] was a local archaeological culture of late Neolithic. It centered at the coast of the Bay of Gdansk (Danzig) and Vistula Lagoon (Frisches Haff)[2] and extended north to the Curonian Lagoon and up to Šventoji settlement in Lithuania.[3] It is either named after the adjacent bays, or after an archeological site in the village of Rzucewo (Rutzau) near Puck.

The Rzucewo culture was a hybrid of pre-Indo-European Narva culture, Globular Amphora culture and Corded Ware culture.[4] Traditionally Rzucewo was identified as a variation of Corded Ware culture; however newest research suggests that the culture formed before Corded Ware.[3] This culture specialized in exploitation of marine resources, and existed in parallel to its mother culture for some time. Rzucewo settlements, consisting of characteristic houses reinforced against sea erosion, were located along the coast and further east.[5] The Rzucewo people had domesticated cattle, pigs, some goats, but did little cultivation[6] and engaged in fishery and hunting, especially of seals, then numerous along the Baltic coast.
------------
Does Narva culture and seal hunting ring any bells?
Narva region shows continuous development from mesolithic up to the common era.

[Pure ja]

Northern =/= Nordic though

northern == nordic to baltic-finnics

[Peikko]

Culturally, absolutely!
Komis are culturally more nordic than any germanic scandinavians. Or rather, komis represent 'old nordic', while germanic scandinavians represent 'new nordic'.

Of course, it is evident that 'nordic' means different things to different people.
To baltic-finns, nordic means Põhjala / Pohjola.
I consider Nordic culture to be mainly Scandinavian. Finland is Nordic only because of funny business with Sweden.

[stemm99]

. And btw, Väina livonians DID live way inland.
Yes, but not in region of Latgale.

http://postilla.mch.mii.lt/Kalba/images/baltuzemzem.JPG

[Pure ja]

Finnics are the most Northern-European Europeans by phenotype, Scandinavians come 2nd, as they have Indo-European/Neolithic blood, which we lack.

That extra scandinavian blood is atlantic-mediterranean, in fact.
So which of the two - nordic hunter-gatherer and neolithic mediterranean agriculturalist - is to be considered more nordic?
If baltic-finnic is not nordic enough, then germanic scandinavians are mediterdic ;-)

[Peikko]

Evidently, because gotlanders have only twice less N1c than estonians.
BTW, the population of Gotland is around 57000, so it hardly has much significance on Swedish genetics.


Well, how would you explain germanic estonians switching into baltic-finnic?
During the Roman iron age, because of considerable infux of "baltic-finns" from the east? They supposedly took Estonia, then Saaremaa and finally Gotland? There is no evidence of that. There is however evidence that Estonian county system emerged about 2000 years ago, and local archeology shows strong regionalisation, not disruptions from the east.

And why would germanic estonians switch to baltic-finnic when the Estonian iron-age agricultural package received ideas from south-west along the Baltic Clint line?

If the inner core of europeanness is in the Baltics, then there had to be less changes in the Baltic region than elsewhere in Europe.
Well I was just kidding. But I'm seriously interested to read, if you have other classification to Estonian language and some good evidence for it.

[Pure ja]

1. Neighboring countries always cluster with each other


And yet, estonians and finns don't.
The same pattern should apply also to estonians and balts.



2. Both Estonians and Balts share the same Paleolithic/Mesolithic genetic basis. And both have after that had inputs from Corded Ware culture (and possibly from the neighboring Slavics)

Yes, but if those more recent inputs haven't broken the Baltic inner core, then that input into the region of 3 Baltic countries couldn't have been large. The real genetic input had to be further south, in southern Belarus, perhaps.

[Pure ja]

no. Estonians worse;)

I see a rift of dissonance developing between the Rus and Roslagens :D

[Pure ja]

The funny thing is, that Karelians are "truer" Finnics than actual Finns.


Claimed by you.
The inner core of europeanness shows otherwise.




They have quite different origins than Finns and were isolated from us most of the history. In fact, most parts of Karelia never became part of the kingdom. Mixing with Karelians started to occure in Eastern Finland after some parts like Northern Savonia became part of the Kindom around 1600s and Finns started to spread there.

I am aware of that.

[Pure ja]

They just have crazy theories. Pure Ja actually believes, that Estonian language sounds like Dutch.

Relatively speaking.
For making that comparison you would have to include a third language.

[Pure ja]

N1c doesn't have anything to do with East Baltic phenotype.


It does show that there is not a sharp cline between Estonia and Latvia and Sweden.
Gotlanders are close to the inner core of europeanness.




This girl is Icelandic:
http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/58/606642119727479fac381b81ecbb31ff/l.jpg

This guy is Danish:
http://ad009cdnb.archdaily.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/1283535798-bjarke-ingels-image-by-jakob-glatt-02-528x303.jpg

Are you saying that they're Finnics?

They could be.
Gene expression is partly independent from genes.

[Pure ja]

I consider Nordic culture to be mainly Scandinavian. Finland is Nordic only because of funny business with Sweden.

There is Nordic and there is nordic.
Nordic = Nordic Council member states
nordic = northern environment + culture / lifestyle

If you claim that baltic-finns are not entirely Nordic, then that means that Nordic hasn't got anything to do with north in particular.
And then those Nordics are better off calling themselves Mediterdic.

[Pure ja]

Yes, but not in region of Latgale.

http://postilla.mch.mii.lt/Kalba/images/baltuzemzem.JPG

They did in the past.
And btw, that map is inaccurate. For example zemgals never inhabited nor controlled the Bay of Riga shoreline. There were marketplaces way inland. Zemgals did not reach north from those marketplaces. The coast was fully livonian. The Curonian part is also wrong. Do tell me where in your opinion lived and ruled the famous livonian/curonian Lemmekinus?

[Peikko]

And yet, estonians and finns don't.
The same pattern should apply also to estonians and balts.

Of course Finns and Estonians don't. There's been only limited amounts of mixing between Finns and Estonians. But it doesn't apply to Balts and Estonians, who cluster very well. Feel free to prove me wrong.



Yes, but if those more recent inputs haven't broken the Baltic inner core, then that input into the region of 3 Baltic countries couldn't have been large. The real genetic input had to be further south, in southern Belarus, perhaps.
Elaborate, please.


Relatively speaking.
For making that comparison you would have to include a third language.
Any Indo-European language is closer to Dutch than Estonian.



They could be.
Gene expression is partly independent from genes.
I don't think so. They don't speak Finno-Ugric language.

[Peikko]

There is Nordic and there is nordic.
Nordic = Nordic Council member states
nordic = northern environment + culture / lifestyle

If you claim that baltic-finns are not entirely Nordic, then that means that Nordic hasn't got anything to do with north in particular.
And then those Nordics are better off calling themselves Mediterdic.
What in your opinion is Nordic culture?

[Hercus Monte]

Lithuanians were not much of a seafarers.actually we were, staring with the curonians. but it didn't end there. both the GDL as an independent state and in the union with Poland had a good navy tradition, especially during the reign of Jan and Maria Sobieski.

[Peikko]

Interesting post here:http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?54798-Are-the-Sami-White&p=1016298&viewfull=1#post1016298

[Äike]

actually we were, staring with the curonians. but it didn't end there. both the GDL as an independent state and in the union with Poland had a good navy tradition, especially during the reign of Jan and Maria Sobieski.

The "Curonian" seafarers were actually Livs living on the northern part of the Curonian peninsula, thus the name "Curonians", as they were from the Curonian peninsula.

The """""""Curonian"""""" seafarers were almost the same people as the Estonians of Saaremaa. It's said that they were more similar to each other than the Estonians of Saaremaa were to the mainland Estonians. As there was only 50km between Saaremaa and the tip of the Curonian peninsula, that was inhabited by the Livs, who sailed together with their Finnic brethern, the Oesealins/Estonians of Saaremaa.

"Baltic seafarers/vikings" is just another typically Baltic attempt to claim things which aren't theirs. Like Skype would be a "Baltic" invention, although it was nothing to do with Balts. Et cetera

Balts act like Eastern-Europeans in this regard, well it's logical as they're Balto-Slavs, culturally at least.

[Hercus Monte]

^ that's nice, thank you for your extravagant knowledge of history. (it's funny how you accuse us of stealing your history and at the same time steal ours, I'm guessing you're trying to be funny or something of that sort)

(also, do people still use Skype?)

[Äike]

^ that's nice, thank you for your extravagant knowledge of history.

You're welcome.


(also, do people still use Skype?)

lol, do you live in a cave?

[Hercus Monte]

lol, do you live in a cave?

do you? most people use facebook or google hangout.

[sevruk]

I see a rift of dissonance developing between the Rus and Roslagens :D

there is no relationship between Rus and Roslagen

[Peikko]

Here's something for the original topic:


Pysical Anthropology of the Baltic Finns

The Finns and Swedes of Southwestern Finland are characteristically tall (height is more than 173 cm), relatively long and narrow headed, and as a result more doliocephalic than all other investigated groups (cephalic index is less than 80), the face is morphologically longer and more leptoprosopic (morphological facial index is more than 90), the nose is more leptorhine (in the vast majority of cases, the nasal index is less than 64). Concave profiled nasal bridges are infrequent, and convex profiled nasal bridges more frequent, relative to the East of Finland. The forehead slopes, and the browridges are strongly developed.

All of the traits described above are characteristic of the Scandinavian type.

The Estonians of the Western part of the Estonian S.S.S.R differ slightly from the population of Southwest Finland. Western Estonians are somewhat less doliocephalic, (since the breadth of their heads is larger) and their bizygomatic distance is somewhat larger. In addition to this, their foreheads slope more, and their browridges are heavy. Finally, Western Estonians are more robust than the population of Southwest Finland. Thus, Western Estonians belong to the West-Baltic type. This has also been established by other authors (U. Aul, 1964b, M. V. Vitov, K. U. Mark, N. N. Cheboksarov, 1959).

The West-Baltic type is also common among Livs and Western Latvians (M. V. Vitov, K. U. Mark, N. N. Cheboksraov, 1959).

Regardless of their differences, the two aforementioned types - Scandinavian and West-Baltic - have much in common. This is why in Soviet anthropological literature they are often referred to collectively as the "Atlanto-Baltic race"

It should be noted that certain groups of Southwestern Finns are broader-faced, and in this way are close to Estonians.

The Finns of Eastern Finland, Karelians, Vepses, Ijores and Eastern Estonians are characterized by a different set of traits. In the vast majority of groups studied, height is lower, the head is more brachycephalic (cephalic index is more than 80.0), the face is shorter (morphological facial index is less than 90), the nose is lower, and concave nasal profiles are quite frequent. The forehead is straight and the browridges are only weakly developed, which allows us to chracterize a portion of these groups as gracile. It should be reiterated that some of these groups are extremely light pigmented, and simultaneously display weak Mongoloid admixture. This complex of traits is typical of the East-Baltic type.

Soviet anthropologists usually regard Vepses as the most typical representatives of the East-Baltic type (see M V. Vitov, K. U. Mark, N. N. Cheboksarov, 1959, p. 103-104). According to our data, Vepses and Korelians are distinguished from the Finns of Eastern Finland and Eastern Estonians mainly by larger cranial and facial dimensions, which are apparently correlated with a decrease in height.

The differences between Eastern and Western Estonians are not as easy to extarpolate. In the Estonian S.S.S.R, the East-Baltic type has many intermediate variants with the West-Baltic type.

Source: Anthropology of the Balto-Finnish Peoples (Antropologija Balto-Finnskikh Narodov), by Karin Mark, p. 41-42.

[Peikko]

It really corresponds to all other research I've read. According to most anthropologists, who had the West Baltic type, it's common among Balts, Belarussians, Western parts of Russia and Polish people. (And of course in Western Estonia). Baltic Finnic type really is the East Baltic type.

[glass]

is it only me or this estonian man really looks less northern than his half eastern european daughter?
http://s8.postimg.org/9tb71jet1/204862.jpg

[Pure ja]

BTW, the population of Gotland is around 57000, so it hardly has much significance on Swedish genetics.


Not today.
But if it was 30 000 about 1000 years ago, then at that time it was quite significant.

[Peikko]

Not today.
But if it was 30 000 about 1000 years ago, then at that time it was quite significant.
Where did you get that figure? Also, was it relatively significant compared to other parts of Sweden?

[Pure ja]

Of course Finns and Estonians don't. There's been only limited amounts of mixing between Finns and Estonians. But it doesn't apply to Balts and Estonians, who cluster very well. Feel free to prove me wrong.


I don't see the need to prove you wrong.
We both admit the same thing. But our conclusions seem to be different.

I say that the inner core of europeanness in the Baltics has to represent the southern baltic-finnic core.
I can rephrase it to mean that it represents the south-western core of comb-ceramic. But the implication on both cases is still that there has been no considerable genetic divergence within the Baltics since the Swiderian culture. And that means that at least balts had to switch languages, the baltic languages did not reach the Baltics through extensive immigration into the Baltics (although that extensive immigration might have happened to the southern Belarus, where maybe baltoslavic started). Whether estonians switched languages, that debate is still open.




Elaborate, please.


The genetic cline seems to cut Belarus into southern and northern parts.
The northern part belongs to the core of europeanness.




Any Indo-European language is closer to Dutch than Estonian.


By linguistic rules, but not by sound.
The debate was always about 'what it sounds more like...'

[Pure ja]

What in your opinion is Nordic culture?

It is not for me to define or opine about the Nordic culture.
I prefer to opine on the nordic culture (notice the small caps).
It is like with internet and Internet.

The nordic culture is the culture of Põhjala / Pohjola, and that is not defined by the use of north-germanic languages.

By confrontation, Nordic culture would be defined by the use of north-germanic languages - and that means that if finns define themselves through the use of north-germanic languages, not by the Põhjala/Pohjala, then finns are considering themseves not finnic any more.

[Pure ja]

actually we were, staring with the curonians. but it didn't end there. both the GDL as an independent state and in the union with Poland had a good navy tradition, especially during the reign of Jan and Maria Sobieski.

Curonians with the lead of livonian/finnic curonian Lemmekinus, and allied with maritime oeselians. Yeah. Looks about baltic.
Curonians were as much baltic, as fennoswedes are finns, only in reverse.

[Peikko]

By linguistic rules, but not by sound.
The debate was always about 'what it sounds more like...'
Actually, I once had to do a test where I had to listen to several Baltic-dialect. Most of them were Latvian and Lithuanian, but one was Livonian. I couldn't tell which one was the Baltic-Finnic Livonian. I guess the Baltic-Finnic languages don't sound extremely different to Baltic-languages, though there are differences.


It is not for me to define or opine about the Nordic culture.
I prefer to opine on the nordic culture (notice the small caps).
It is like with internet and Internet.

The nordic culture is the culture of Põhjala / Pohjola, and that is not defined by the use of north-germanic languages.

By confrontation, Nordic culture would be defined by the use of north-germanic languages - and that means that if finns define themselves through the use of north-germanic languages, not by the Põhjala/Pohjala, then finns are considering themseves not finnic any more.
Well, it isn't really about languages for us at all. For me, the Nordic culture means cultural traditions and traditional foods, that the Nordic countries share. Examples go from årtsoppa to meat balls. In christmas we eat ham with mustard, pepparkakor and glög. Just to give a couple of examples.

[Pure ja]

there is no relationship between Rus and Roslagen

There is.
Both have N1c.

[Pure ja]

It really corresponds to all other research I've read. According to most anthropologists, who had the West Baltic type, it's common among Balts, Belarussians, Western parts of Russia and Polish people. (And of course in Western Estonia). Baltic Finnic type really is the East Baltic type.

I disagree with the labels.
From the spread of West Baltic, it looks to correspond with swiderian.
"East Baltic" looks to correspond to more Volga-finnic, Perm-finnic and more samoyed.

I specifically disagree with the "East baltic" labeling as "baltic-finnic". "East Baltic" should be labeled as "East baltic-finnic".

[Pure ja]

Intra and inter tribal territories are marked using the same dashed line if you haven't noticed.

Anyway, it does not show Žiemgaliai tribe living by the Baltic Sea. You must be mixing it with Žemiečiai (should be Žemaičiai) tribe. Ceclis is partially included in Žemaičiai territory. However, no seaside land is assigned to Žemaičiai.

Even though Lammechinus titled himself "a king", I've read he ruled 1/3 of all Curonian territory. Pope's legate Balduin signed analogous treaties with Curonians from other lands.


Even if we take the 1/3 at face value, I don't see that 1/3 of Curonia on the map.

[Peikko]

I disagree with the labels.
From the spread of West Baltic, it looks to correspond with swiderian.

It's certainly possible. Do you know if there exists any archaeological findings of swiderian culture? Have they measured any phenotypes?


"East Baltic" looks to correspond to more Volga-finnic, Perm-finnic and more samoyed.

I specifically disagree with the "East baltic" labeling as "baltic-finnic". "East Baltic" should be labeled as "East baltic-finnic".
East Baltic would be more "East Baltic Finnic", yes. More common among Karelians, Vepsians, Ingrians and Setos.

[Pure ja]

Where did you get that figure? Also, was it relatively significant compared to other parts of Sweden?

According to land counts, oeselians formed about 1/7 of Estonian population in the 1200 AD, while their territory was just 5%.
And fishing and seal hunting would only tip the balance more towards oeselians.

Gotland got to its current land area quicker than Saaremaa, Gotland is also a bit larger. And it is in a warmer climate, which should enhance agriculture. It suggests that Gotland had a bit larger population than Saaremaa. Saaremaa only had the possible advantage of migratory bird flocks and seals on their favour. But even if the population density of Gotland was similar to Saaremaa, I would expect at least 10 persons per km2 by 1200 AD, that would mean 30 000 (but 2 centuries later than 1000 AD).

[Pure ja]

It's certainly possible. Do you know if there exists any archaeological findings of swiderian culture? Have they measured any phenotypes?


You mean human skulls and bones?
I haven't heard of.
The closest would probably be the mesolithic burials near Astijärv (Esti järv ;-), just kidding).

[Pure ja]

Actually, I once had to do a test where I had to listen to several Baltic-dialect. Most of them were Latvian and Lithuanian, but one was Livonian. I couldn't tell which one was the Baltic-Finnic Livonian. I guess the Baltic-Finnic languages don't sound extremely different to Baltic-languages, though there are differences.

That was probably already a very worn out and mixed livonian that you heard.
But you may be onto something. The pronounciation of estonian language is certainly molded by foreign languages that estonians have encountered. We were not Tavastians :D

[tabani]

I know next to nothing about ethnogenesis of Estonians but I'm watching a documentary about crusaders right now and an historian Alaksandr Baškoŭ says there literally this:

In fact you would not find today an Estonian who would descend from those Ests, because they all are in fact descendants of the crusaders. Thus they have a special anthropological type. When we come to Estonia we see blonde people, we see people with blue eyes and according to the anthropological parameters they have nothing left from the Ests.

That would be sad. :icon_sad: I wish I heard from someone that it's stupid to take this statement seriously. Anyone?

This is stupid idea as the number of crusaders or later Germans in Estonia remained at level of 2% of population in countryside and minority also in towns. In North-Estonia probably even part of high class remained local by nationality. Estonians were more influenced after big wars in about 1558-1630 after which many neighbouring people migrated into Estonia. Even then mostly by close neighbours like Finns. Society in 18th century was so Estonian-dominated that even my probably German ancestor of that time turned into Estonian although related to manor.

According to new ideas Estonians were mostly Germanic already in 1200 BC. Some find that in Viking age North of Estonia was again under heavy influence by Germanics and part of Viking world. Probably so much independent part of Viking world that creation of Kiev Rus state could not take it.